Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen host of Inside Personal Growth. I think that a lot all my listeners know, sometimes podcasters have a faux pas. I recorded this podcast once before Daniel and I are doing it again because of my fault in in the record buttons. But I have Daniel Aronson from New York joining us. And we're going to be speaking about his new book, The Value of Values: How Leaders Can Grow Their Businesses and Enhance Their Careers by Doing the Right Things. Good day, Daniel, how you doing today?

Daniel Aronson
Good to see you again.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's good to see you. And sorry for actually having to do this again. But you know what, it's always better to the second time, so make sure that we get it right. This time. I'm gonna let my listeners know a little bit about you, Daniel. He's the founder of Valutus, v-a-l-u-t-u-s, you can actually get to his website at valutus.com. To learn more about the software that he has about how he works with people with values. The company specializes in creating value through sustainable and responsibility. He's the creator of the value values model. And the author of this book, which is an MIT Press 2024 He's helped leading companies identify and qualify or quantify over 2 billion and sustainable driven business value. And I think that's the biggest thing here is how Daniel helps companies identify how value plays such an important role in actually improving profitability of the company as well. He coined the term submerged value, which we're going to be talking about. And as I said, he's the author of he's also the creator of impact science, true plastic impact, materiality, science, and customer science. He's guest lectured at Harvard Business School and MIT Sloan sustainability lab and has written or been featured in over 100 articles and publication. And as an executive in residence at NYU Stern School of Business. He holds an MBA from MIT Sloan business management, and a BA with high honors from UC Berkeley. But he now lives in New York City, not in Berkeley anymore. So, well, that must have been a good time in Berkeley.

Daniel Aronson
It was a good time, every winter. I wonder why I left on occasion when I left the West Coast. Yeah, it was a good time.

Greg Voisen
Well, Berkeley is a city filled with people who want to also make a change. And they're, and they're allowing the world to allow themselves to be seen to do that. So and UC Berkeley is kind of known for its protest in writers and people they don't write, they're usually very peaceful, but at the same time, they have something they want to be heard. So I think it's a great school for that, if you're going to send your kids to UC Berkeley, be assured that they're going to get a phenomenal educational, but they're also going to expand their consciousness gravely. So it's a good thing.

Daniel Aronson
It's a bit of a different experience from MIT. I'll tell you.

Greg Voisen
Yes, that is, that's reserved and well, like, you don't want to start out your book challenges, misconception that acting on values, lowers profits. That's the old school, though, for businesses, because we're talking more about collaboration here, we're talking about identifying this. We're not talking about looking at people as human capital, you know, it's like, yes, that is a term that's used. But can you elaborate on why this belief persist among business leaders? And what inspired you to debunk the myth of what you're calling the value of values?

Daniel Aronson
I think the reason that it mostly persists is because people don't see all the ways that acting on values, creates business value. And that's what I call submerged value, and submerged values, typically four to 10 times as much as what they see. And if you see something lying around, and you think, yeah, that's like a $10. Bill, you're gonna work a lot less hard to pick it up. And if you think it's 100 And that's the problem is that people don't see how much it's really worth. And the reason that I wrote the book is two reasons, right? One is that businesses and the world are both worse off every minute that this misperception of how valuable values are persists. And the second is that people want to make a difference. Companies often want to make a difference, but they believe they can't afford to and you Turns out that's exactly backwards.

Greg Voisen
Well, and I want to echo what you're saying, because there's been a lot of discussion lately in my world around values. And purposely, I just did an interview called the cheap, Chief leadership officer, and the the importance of purpose in a business and values in a business. And I want you to talk a little bit more about submerged value. You know, submerged means that it's taking you don't see it, and like you said, people need to see it, to actually believe that, but your company allows people see it, to see it through measurement through measuring something, I think it's always been said, You can't change something you don't measure, right? Could you explain and this term, maybe a little bit more in depth and how it relates to the hidden benefits of some initiatives like combating climate change, or fostering, or the change or fostering inclusive work environments. I had a lady that was just on yesterday, from Bon Appetit management, wrote a book, you can't serve manure at lunchtime. Now, it sounded pretty interesting. But the reality is, is that most restaurant tears weren't looking at the values of the kinds of foods they were putting out and the sustainability and they weren't buying things locally. And what happened, his bone appetit, the owner got down. And this is a great story on the pig farmers for the manure, and the manure that's caused from that, and what's actually happening in counties in Virginia and other places with relation to the pollution associated with it. We also got into a conversation and this goes along with values, State of California passed Proposition two in January of this year, which was all around the house. And what kind of pork products are being served in restaurants. Now, we're a pretty progressive state. And her comment to me was, after that legislation passed, and I think this is interesting around values, she said, You didn't find any restaurants not being able to put bacon on the hamburgers. Right? It's how that bacon was accessed. Right? How those animals were treated. That's all around values.

Daniel Aronson
Yeah, that's absolutely right. Yes, that's right. And one of the things that people, I think that people realize is that people don't realize scuze me is that values help with the how, the what, of course, they you have to satisfy the customer, you have to operate well, you have to protect yourself against risks, and you have to attract and keep the right employees. But values help in all those were areas with the how we actually call those four areas, core customers operations, risk and employees. And if you if you look at what's available, you get all these questions that seems so clear, like, Who wouldn't want an extra 1530? Or percent more customer preference, right? Who wouldn't want a four times or five times greater chance of being an innovation leader in their operations? Who wouldn't want to better respond to risks and disruptions when they happen? And who wouldn't want 50% better retention and engagement, according to some research from last year for employees? And I mean, who wouldn't want these things? And values are part of that how right like, like, you're saying, you still have to deliver the food that the customer ordered. But how do you deliver it? And how do we make money delivering it? That's where values come in?

Greg Voisen
What do you think? Why do you think that values have taken the backseat of the bus, and are basically just riding along versus CEOs pushing profits productivity in the front seat of the bus? Now I do realize they have stakeholders and stockholders that they've got to report to. And most of these companies and not even big companies, small companies do. We are an entrepreneur. But why is it that the mindset has been so against bringing this to the front of the best to be recognized as an important profit center? Because they haven't know your company helps them measure it. So it should actually now be quite a bit more valuable because they can measure it. So why is it always been shifted to the rear of the bus? You know,

Daniel Aronson
that's a good question. And I have a couple of reasons why I think it's the case, but just put an exclamation point on the point you made. I've been working on this for over 25 years. And in that time, show me the value show me the business case, show me the money has been one of the top problems and barriers that people have. This was true a quarter century ago. And when IBM did their CEO survey a couple of years ago, they found the number one barrier for CEO action was ROI. And when KPMG did their survey just a couple of months ago, he found the number one barrier to sustainability action was a combination of capacity, and ROI. And of course, if you can show ROI, you can get more capacity. That's kind of the history right? The history is that this has been a problem. And the question you're asking is why? I think that's a good question. I got two reasons. One is that people often kind of split the topic of work from the topic of personal. And as a result, they think something that matters to me as a person can also matter to my business. That doesn't make sense. But that's kind of an unspoken assumption. And in particular, with values people think of this as the realm of fables and not finance.

Greg Voisen
Well, have you made it, Daniel, so that a CFO of a company based on your company's value notice I can actually measure the exact financial impact of this? In other words, is that what you do?

Daniel Aronson
Yes, because the short answer, every CEO,

Greg Voisen
that's what they want to do they want to they want to measure the value of values, right? Yeah, that's right. And and that's what you guys do. Now, you said in your research, you calculated that, and you said this a little bit. But the benefits of acting on these values is four to 10 times more than initially believed. Now, if that is true, and I don't disbelieve you, could you share some examples or case studies that illustrate the concept, and demonstrate that since this substantial impact of a values driven initiative, I mean, I go back to the days of Richard Barrett, and he called it liberating the corporate soul. You know, he is to have that it wasn't Maslow's chart, but it was kind of like Maslow's tourney kind of went like this, then out like this, right. And the reality is, when we could get a company aligned when I went through all these things, in values, right, we got alignment, we would always see enhanced profitability, hands productivity, enhanced innovation, enhanced creativity, you take every area there is and it was enhanced, but our people's personal values, frequently, not always aligned with what the company's values are. And if they are on, how do you address it? Yeah,

Daniel Aronson
two things. One is that the values that I'm talking about the ones I've talked about in the book, are values around making the world better, and improving the lives of those who live in it. Right, benefiting the world and those who live in it. That's the values I'm talking about. Because there's plenty of good values, discussion and 1000s of years of books and everything else about personal values. But the thing is that those personal values are not the ones that I talk about, because they tend to be more separated from these controversies about what's good for the business. What's the value of the business? Like, if you do something environmentally, or socially good, is that good or bad? And that it turns out is a different question than, you know, what are people's personal say, religious values or philosophical facts?

Greg Voisen
Well, let me ask you, sorry, I want to hear, interject here and I apologize for this. But I'm thinking of Patagonia and I'm saying, Hey, you had Yvon Chouinard, whose values? Right? Here's the CEO of Patagonia, whose personal values were very clear to everybody that worked in the organization and many people were attracted to work there as a result of him carrying the lamp light. Right, I'm gonna save the world. I'm gonna do this differently. And don't you find it important that that CEO truly Eat a lamp light so that we can carry those values and people can be aligned to take on initiatives. I'm gonna say this in particular, initiatives, like Patagonia has done to source, cotton's and materials from the right places to pay people living wages, didn't matter if it's tea, or it's cotton, or whatever it is, I think these are some of the things we're talking about to say, hey, that brings them value of Patagonia. And that's all they want. Zappos, Patagonia, you name it, there's plenty of them. Right? Yeah.

Daniel Aronson
And those are, in fact, the kinds of values that people do join organizations for, for the benefits of the world. Right? So there are some organizations, you know, religious organizations, philosophical organizations, where people join for the personal values, like, I really liked that this person is Christian, or Buddhist or, or what have you. But the things that you're talking about, about making a difference in the world, really have incredible broad appeal, right? Paying people with living rage, people can see, oh, I understand how that helped me leave a better legacy for the problem. And it turns out that doing things like that, also help the business. And there are a few different ways, but they basically come down to how do you see? How do you feel? And where do you look? And just as an example, what do you see, IBM had a factory that was making semiconductor chips, and they decided to reduce their water use. Now, this factory been in operation for a long time, it's very competitive industry, obviously, they've been working on making it more efficient for decades. But nonetheless, as they looked at the water use, they thought, you know, we could do this, we could do that they cut water, use 29%. But number one that was worth three quarters of a million dollars a year, which is money that they hadn't seen before. Number two, the non water savings, productivity, energy use, treatment costs, and so on, were four times as much. That's what I mean by submerged value. Submerge value is four times as much. And that's why one of the managers there said, When you see the way we see, you don't see water in the pipes, you see dollar signs. That's the connection I'm trying to make with the book.

Greg Voisen
Well, you are and you're doing a great job with it. And I want to state that, you know, not every company listening out there today, some do have chief sustainable officers. And I remember and sustainability, because we're talking about how sustainable is this and I went to a conference not too long ago, where the sustainability officer for Starbucks showed up and spokes. And we heard that Starbucks was going to be requiring more people to come in with their own cups and do things where there wouldn't be this massive amount of pollution or waste as a result of this, right. And there are people inside of companies and you know this because you work with them, that their job is to find a way to improve the environment and lessen the impact on the globe. And at the same time, give better customer experience. I have yet to see that at Starbucks. And I'm not pointing out to them. But the reality is, is that there's an area where the customers that consume their products are probably trying to be pretty environmentally sensitive, you would hope. I wouldn't say that screw all the time. But it is interesting how you're in this conundrum of how do we do this? How do we implement it? And then how do we see this emerge value? Your example about the semiconductors at savings, three quarters of a million dollars in water is a great example. And your book emphasizes the importance of responding smartly and credibly, to today's challenges, plotting championships out there. In your view, what are some of the most pressing challenges facing businesses today? And how can leaders leverage the value of values to address them? It doesn't matter if I'm making tennis shoes at Nike, or I'm selling coffee at Starbucks, there's a lot of challenges at worst that they're still faced with.

Daniel Aronson
Yeah, that's That's very true. And basically, challenges get broken down into a few different areas. One, obviously, is the change in the customer population and expectations. And this is like, Do customers care more about the sustainable responsible choice than they used to? Yes, even when I've talked to you executives to say yeah, they don't care that much, almost universally, they say They're gonna care more three years from now more five years from now and so on. And in fact, we've conducted experiments, half a million data points across four continents showing causally that this is the case. Then there's the question of resources. And this is part of actually, I guess, I should say that we have kind of a three, a three part, framework for this resources, relationships, and routines are all necessary for business to succeed, and they're all under different kinds of pressure. Resources, are things like, are we able to get the coffee beans, we need to use your example of coffee? Or are we able to get our ships through the Panama Canal, for our shipping, this early this year, there was traffic was down over 20% because of low water. Now, even with the things that they've done to sort of reduce water consumption elsewhere, but what they're still going to be down 15 20% of shipping. And then there's also the routines. And this is where, you know, what happens when there's a major disruption. In the world, like things, a ship gets stuck in the Suez Canal, or there's a natural disaster, which is happening more and more often. There's a great article, written in Australia called what is a once in 100 year event, and why do they keep happening so often? When you have values playing a bigger role in the organization, the great places to work organization found that people are more likely to respond better, respond more productively, and to get through that disruption more successfully. The companies that did worst in the recession, the great recession 2007 2009 At lower scores, and the companies that soared over the recession chasm, as they called it, were the ones that did better at supporting different types of employees that connect to those employee wellbeing initiatives that leaders have. That's how businesses can respond is to see the threats to these three different areas, resources, relationships and routines. And to put values initiatives in place to support those

Greg Voisen
were so true, because it recalls in my mind, a social scientist that was on here. And we were talking about many of the same things we're talking about right now. And she is very well known for I think one of her books was the bellwether, the watchtower, whatever it was, but it was about predicting predictive analytics. And that part of it about, hey, you know, are insurance companies still going to insure the buildings in South Florida, as the waters start to rise? Are insurance companies still going to insure houses in California, with the fire risk, we're seeing it being pulled out now, right and left and in our state and people up in arms about it? You're right, it's the ability to, as Rita McGrath said, see around corners, kind of use these predictive analytics to look at this. And in your case, you can look at this based on predicting this also with the values. And you know, I think the two sciences are really intertwined. Most importantly, and I'd like to say you, you discuss the role of ethics, and responsibility in shaping modern business practices. I couldn't agree with you more. The question I always ask this is this personally, sometimes? Where are those personal morals and ethics go? From some leaders, and I don't know if we pointed this out last time, but one example was the situation with Volkswagen versus the situation with Samsung, right, qualifying and blew it. Samsung did a great job had great orators for their, for their phone, even though they were melting afterwards. But I'll tell you, leaders ensure that the ethical considerations are all integrated in every aspect of their organization, because it's, this is really imperative if people aren't transparent, aren't open by operating from an ethical foundation. It can really be a cat catastrophic event for a company.

Daniel Aronson
Yeah, that's absolutely right. And in fact, Volkswagen shows that that quite correctly, because several of their executives went to jail. Their largest dealership in Germany went under because the the, the reduction in the resale value of These vehicles that they lied about was so great that they actually had to declare bankruptcy. Because the assets that they had weren't worth what they said they were worth what they expected them to be worth. And of course, there are hundreds of millions of fines and all that other stuff. That's one of the things that has to happen is, is the bringing in of ethics. And there are two ways. One is, and they're actually both usable by individuals and organizations. The fundamental question is, where do I want to be in the future? And who do I want to be? What am I not willing to do? Now for decades, people have said, you know, write your eulogy, what would you want said at your funeral, but it still works. You can actually see when people project themselves 510 years and future in their career, or into the future for their funeral, you can actually see it change the decisions they make today. The second thing is that someone once said to me, what is it that you're not willing to accept? This is a question for both businesses and people. What are the lines, they're not willing to cross because Volkswagen could not have had that much of a problem? If there hadn't been a bunch of people willing to sign off? There's no way one or two engineers could have done that, without the knowledge or acceptance or turning a blind eye of everybody else. That's the kind of thing that both individuals and companies can do. Where do I want to be? And who do I want to be? Who am I unwilling to be? And what am I unwilling to do in terms of crossing lines?

Greg Voisen
What I probably brings a very important question that wasn't in our last podcast, but might be to this podcast around a current political structure and situation here in the United States on ethics and values. How is it from your standpoint, Daniel, that we could have somebody now, and why that for many people in this country, is totally unethical, and doesn't carry any values and run for president again. And you know, this is my show, I can say this is so the reality is, is no matter what Mr. Trump thinks, I don't see how people can't see that. I guess maybe I'm coming from a different viewpoint. And I'm not asking you to agree or disagree. I'm looking for a statement from you. Do you believe that this country could be run by somebody in an ethical and moral way, having those values and ethics that he cares?

Daniel Aronson
I think that one of the things that's happening here and around the world, is this erosion of trust in institutions and people and in politics, and you have these anti Democratic leaders, these leaders who really are not supportive of democracy, things like saying the press is the enemy of democracy, or the press is the enemy of the people. That's the kind of thing that breaks down the social fabric that we need here. And it's possible for a lot of people to want that kind of candidate. It's always a bit surprising, when you see it elsewhere. When you see, you know, Bolson arrow or you see leaders in other places, it's like, well, how does that happen? The simple fact is that there are people who are attracted to this.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, they say, well, they're saying disenfranchised people are the ones that and that word gets used a ton. But I'm saying there are a lot of people that feel like somebody else did it to them, they're not taking responsibility for their own actions on what happens in their life. And I get that list, you can blame the government, you can blame your employer, you can blame anybody. But until you step up and take 100% responsibility for yourself, which is where you're coming from, with this book. And I'll say that unequivocally because you don't write a book on values, if you're not really gonna look at your own values and the values of the companies that you choose to work for or with. I don't care which one it is. I do want to comment on that or

Daniel Aronson
I think that's right. I think there are two important things. One is that people underestimate the threat to democracy and how important that is and companies need to step up and say, you know, disagreement about tax threads. That's part of the process, disagreement about whether democracy is valuable. That's beyond the pale, right. And, for example, if you do that, you can look back later with pride and what you've done. Here, again, an example is IBM, in the 1950s, they wanted to put a new facility in North Carolina, and at the time, North Carolina allowed segregation, segregation was the law of the land in North Carolina. And they communicated that they weren't gonna put the factory there, unless it was integrated. And, in fact, North Carolina back down, and they had an integrated factory there. In the 100 year anniversary, IBM told their story. And this was one of the things they highlighted. This kind of, you know, we might disagree about this trade policy, or this patent policy or whatever. They didn't highlight small disagreements or technical issues like that. They highlighted that they had a strong value, that this value led them to refuse to accept status in North Carolina. And one of the things that's dangerous is that a lot of companies a don't realize the threat to democracy. And democracy is good for capitalism. Democracy is good for business. Can you imagine if you had the best product, the best service, the best price, but the contract went to the company that had the best political connections? Right? That would not be America. And there was

Greg Voisen
no compromising on this? In other words,

Daniel Aronson
yeah, there's a, there's a need for companies and individuals to be courageous, to be able to look back and say, You know what, we were courageous. And we feel good about it. The way that IBM can look back with pride on its courage in the 50s.

Greg Voisen
Well, an example we all can listen to this podcast here being recorded on March 18th. And look at Mr. Putin being elected for another six years, and his only opponent being killed just weeks prior to the elections. Kind of an ironic, but he talked about a threat to democracy. It was so is he in many of the leaders as we know, who stood up and I'm saying leaders, and attempted to make the change. Many are assassinated, many are no longer with us, as a result of the test of power and money. Lots of people with lots of money, and lots of people and lots of power, do things sometimes they shouldn't do. And a lot of times they shouldn't do. But that was a that was an offshoot from this interview, but an important one, and you know, your company value test, you bring a wealth of experience in the measurement and analytics of this and in in your book, how does the background and the measurement and form an approach or your approach to evaluating the impact of values driven initiatives? So let's just say XYZ company has an initiative to somehow save energy, because they want to make the world a better place. And so they're saying our commitment, I think you could say Amazon has one, they said, We're going to have 50% of our vehicles are going to be EVs. Okay. And that's supposed to happen by 2000. And whatever the date is, well, that's a huge investment. It's a billion, I think, billion dollar commitment to buy all those vehicles, right. So do you think now as somebody who measure values, that Amazon is taking the right direction, and can they measure the return on that investment in so many different ways?

Daniel Aronson
Yeah, I mean, I can't speak to the specifics of Amazon's calculation, but I think that the investment in EVs makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways and when I've seen it evaluated elsewhere, the answer is there's a lot of value because EVs Of course, you're somewhat less exposed to the fluctuations in price of fuel than you are if you're on the market for diesel fuel. In addition to that, EVS tend to have lower cost to operate. Now it depends on the specific Evie and so on, but tends to tends to be lower cost to operate an Eevee And, of course, there are changes in the context. Like in a lot of places. In Europe, for example, a lot of center cities have either passed or are contemplating banning gasoline powered vehicles from the Center City between certain hours to clear the air and for their citizens. So an Eevee protects you against that risk, right? On the one hand, its cost to operate is often lower. On the other hand, it gives you free insurance against these kinds of changes. So you don't have to figure out what to do if these things change, and suddenly your vehicles are worth less than you thought they were. And it's a, it's an example of a tangible commitment that the company makes. The more there's a tangible commitment, the more competitors, customers and employees can say, you know, what, they're not just talking about it, because you know, talk is cheap. Right? Right. Like they're doing something. Now, there's a lot more that could be done, right, the supply chain, the recyclability, the sourcing of the products, a lot of these things are a bigger deal, a much bigger deal in a lot of cases than the last mile delivery. But the idea is not to stop with something visible, but to see what's the most important. And to drive that through the business?

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, you measuring something like that, I think we'd have a huge impact, to create a report for the employees of what the these are actually done to reduce the pollution, to increase our efficiency, to reduce the impact on the environment, all the kinds of things that you could measure, and that you do measure, to actually put that in a report to all the stakeholders inside of a company to really understand that the value of a billion dollar investment was going to have a $10 billion return on investment, because in the end, as CFO was the one who wants to know, hey, if I'm gonna put a billion dollars out, what do we actually see in return? Now, you have a subtitle on your book that makes sense enhance in careers by doing the right thing. How can individuals leverage values based leadership to advance their own professional growth and development? Anyway,

Daniel Aronson
ways, the first way is they can show their own values on resumes, and interviews, and so forth. There's evidence that if you put say volunteering on your resume, you're more likely to get a call back. The second way is they can search for companies that share their values about doing good for the world, and those who live in. Because those companies are better positioned for the future, they're more likely to be successful, they're more likely to stay successful. And you want to be in a good company, one that people really like versus one has more risk, or people don't like as much even if you decide to leave. The third thing is that leadership matters for careers and values matter for leadership. 2000 years ago, Aristotle talked about the three pillars of persuasion, ethos, pathos, and logos. Ethos has the same root as the word ethics. And as a number of people have said, values help attract the best people. And LeVar Burton, the actor, director, and host said he couldn't follow people who didn't have a shared sense of ethics and weren't authentic to them. And that's true of an awful lot of people.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, and I remember you said levar, Burton, right. Yeah, yeah. As you said that I went right back to the roots. So that was a long time ago. And you know, it was interesting, just the night before last, as many of our listeners know, Oprah stepped down from weightwatchers, and came out regarding some drugs that she used to actually advocate for weight loss and weight loss as a disease. And, you know, I was thinking about the controversy. But she did the right thing, she actually took all her shares in weightwatchers, and gifted them to a foundation to a foundation. So it kind of ease the impact. But when you really looked at her values or values worth right on to do what she did and become, I would say clean and transparent about how she lost all of this weight and the fact that there should be no shame or no guilt with that. And I think I hold up people like that, who have strong values that are actually doing things in the public eye and are doing them correctly. So it's very well thought out very well strategically planned. But and also, I would say pretty well executed. Now, your book advices for transformation and how business is conducted. And I think that is a key factor here. That's what I was just saying about Weight Watchers and Oprah how is the business being conducted? What changes do you hope to see in the business landscape as a result of leaders embracing the values and values, because this is all about how we do what we do?

Daniel Aronson
I think two things, number one more visibility inside business, to the importance of values to all the submerged areas that it matters. And number two engagement around so that some of the critical things like climate like society, and like democracy, these are areas where businesses need to engage, because they're incredibly important. And as the, the CEO of this leadership magazine said, some years ago, in the US businesses wanted free speech rights, and they got them through court cases. But with rights come responsibilities, that's the way it always has been. And the responsibility is to take the influence the power, and the capabilities that business have, and to use them to be more successful in a way that's good for the world and those who live in.

Greg Voisen
Very well put. Now to kind of wrap up our podcast today. What message or takeaways, do you believe that the readers of your book are going to gain from the values and values? And how do you envision the book, making a positive impact on the businesses and the leaders, really, not only just in our country, but worldwide, because this book is actually going to be bought by everybody in every country, right? And they have to make some decisions. And I think after reading this book, and seeing how your company value test.com, actually measures values and can measure it. And these submerged values, which they literally aren't paying attention to, you shine light on you hold the lantern up and say, hey, here is something that's very real. It's almost like, you know, Daniel, you are making the invisible visible. Right. And, and you are because you're measuring something. And that's usually what makes the invisible visible.

Daniel Aronson
Yeah, I what I hope that happens is a couple of things. One is that people stop not measuring and not seeing the value. Because, as Professor John Sturman MIT says, if something matters, and you don't measure it, you're giving it the only value it can't possibly have. That is zero. And that's why we offer measurement to clients and to customers. But also, people can do this just from the book, there's a whole section about how you can see things out there. They do this in their own lives. In the book, I retell the story of the boy who cried wolf, to talk about the business value of those ethics. And the second thing is that I hope people will be able to combine the things that matter to them personally, and their business and work lives. Because we spent a lot of time at work. We spent a lot of time thinking about commuting to and from and getting a job and working in it. That work should be something that we can be proud of inside something that is making the world better. And that is benefiting those who live in it.

Greg Voisen
Well, I can tell my listeners and I'm gonna hold off. We're gonna have a link to this. We'll also have a link to the website value, value test, valu T U. S, but that is the website for Daniel, great book. Daniel, you are honored to interview because you get things so clearly articulated across to the public, everybody go out and get a copy of the book. And if you don't buy the book, go to his website. He's got blog entries. It's got all kinds of things that you can read about the importance of this and also how he does what he debts and then pick up the phone call him send him an email. It's right there. Contact us to learn more about what he does because I guarantee you that people that listen to the show the whole concept of your submerged value. Daniel can make that invisible visible for you and you can really see the value and if you do have to report to the CFO. I guarantee you there's a measurement as to how much this is going to benefit you and your customers this thanks for being on inside personal growth sharing your words of wisdom and your ability to bring that invisible to visible illness.

Daniel Aronson
Thanks, Greg! Really appreciate it.