Greg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. Joining us from Orlando, Florida. On the other end of the world here is Kevin McCarthy, a good friend. I've known for many, many years. As a matter of fact, his on purpose person course, I took and then kind of took off with it as well, teaching other people. We were just talking, it's at least 20 years ago. He has one other podcast on inside personal growth. I didn't look up the year, but I'll bet you'll find out. That was about right when I started doing podcasting. Good morning to you, Kevin, how are ya?

Kevin W. McCarthy
Hey, good morning. It's great to be with you. And actually, that was probably closer to at least 30 years ago.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, well, don't date me any longer in July, I'm going to be 70. So, I don't know. So, I always like to look at the years as gifts, right? Because that's what they are. So today, we are going to be speaking with Kevin about the chief leadership officer. We also will throw in a few questions from my audience, on the on purpose businessperson. We also want to mention that on purpose.me is a website where you can go to learn more about your own purpose if you haven't defined it yet. And there's a button there that you can push to actually go through a very short little exercise to actually come up with they call it your two minute on purpose. Right?

Kevin W. McCarthy
It's two minutes is that word to word. Two words. It takes about three minutes to get a two-word purpose statement. How's that?

Greg Voisen
Yeah. Well, he's learned a lot in the 30 years, because when I did it, it was two days. It's come a long way he's got he's actually got it down with the times because no one has they all have attention deficit disorder these days, no one would probably spend two days doing that. But I would like to, for our business audience, actually get into the book that we first held up, which is the chief leadership officer increasing wealth. So, everyone profits. And you know, I want to because I didn't even know about this book, Kevin, and it's been out a while. What inspired you are challenged, you challenged you to challenge the traditional CEO role, and propose the concept of what you're referring to as the chief leadership officer? And how do you really define that? What do you define is the differences for somebody who's a chief leadership officer versus a chief executive officer, where you crossed it out on the book?

Kevin W. McCarthy
Well, I mean, let's just take the last question, what's the difference? Most people, if you ask people that work in a company, would they sooner be executed or the sooner be led, and executives execute, and chief leadership officers lead. And so the idea here is one that really comes. There's a long sort of arc, if you will, in terms of some things that are going on that brought about this message. Part of this is because I've been such a pioneer in the purpose area, I recognize that, you know, if you go back 100 million that way, let's say 1000 years ago, when people were more than that, actually what you get back 10s of 1000s of years, when people were hunter gatherers, the work of their hands was what they did, then they got a little smarter, and they learned how to, you know, corral some animals and plants and things and they become emerged from hunter gatherers to sort of an agrarian society. But still, it was the work of their hands. And then they got as a their minds began to free their hands up a little bit, we move into sort of fast forward into the Industrial Revolution, where we are now working with our hands today, most of us our hand activity is this. You were sitting in a keyboard. And so our minds the knowledge age, if you will. So the logical thing is that the age beyond the knowledge age or the digital age, even the AI age is the heart. So we've gone from our hands to our heads to our hearts. And what's happening is we're in an era where meaning and purpose are today. I mean, when I started this work 3334 years ago, nobody was talking about purposes, particularly as a heart issue. And so what's happened is the idea of a CEO is the Industrial Revolution inventions there prior to 1950. There were no CEOs there were only presidents and CEOs were the idea of a group of companies coming together, led by each company is led by a president and the CEO was the person who was over these presidents or these divisions. Of course, today, you have a guy driving around with an F 150 pickup truck and a bag of tools in his card says CEO. It's kind of lost its meaning in that regard. But the fact is, is it's a it's a leftover from an industrial revolutionary mindset. As are words like human resources, which is a pejorative term that looks at people as resources rather than human beings. And so what's happened is the CEO system of management has gradually dehumanized. And again, I'm not, I'm a pro business, love business, entrepreneur. So I'm not bashing business. But what happens is the system of management has so dehumanized people that corporations are hard, having trouble hiring good people, retaining people, the sort of the chewing up and spitting up people is really a it's a high price that people are paying. And so as a result, the idea is the difference between a CEO and a clo, is that CEOs are doing business, what I call incompletely right? Words, they're looking at the numbers, they're looking into profits, and I'm a profit guy. But profit is a byproduct of a system that is designed to produce the profits. However, that system relies upon purpose plan, its people, processes, performance measures, and all of these things that go in. And as a result, if you take the people component, and you which is so vital to what's going on, and you diminish them, you are diminishing your profits, you're diminishing the effect of what you're doing. So a clo does everything a CEO does, but understands where and understands the importance of the people component that we've got to take care of, we've got to do right by the people not take care of you got to do right by the people.

Greg Voisen
I think he or she does it a different way. In other words, they look at people first, right versus profits first. They're not command and control kind of people, they've they've moved from that. But you know, there's, there's this saying, which has been around a long time. And this will go back to the on purpose business, the on purpose, person, book, the two most important days in your life are the day that you're born and the day you realize why you're here. And in essence, that second epiphany is really around our spiritual growth. You know, when people talk about purpose, it's a very personal thing, their personal purpose, the business purpose may be a little bit different, but in essence, no, because it's also why the corporation exists. What is it that they do beyond make a widget or make an Apple watch or or whatever it might be? If you would? Could you speak with us about that second question? And the, I want to call it this spiritual element of that, because there is a spiritual element to finding your purpose.

Kevin W. McCarthy
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you do not, if you do not look at it holistically, in terms of Mind, Body Spirit, then all you're left with is what I would call a mission statement. You're doing stuff, but you're not really understanding why. And so purpose does answer this question of why do I exist? It also and that is a spiritual question. So because it's spiritual, it makes most people in the business world uncomfortable. And so what I'm attempting to do at some level is say, go back to the spirit of the individual. But also if you think about it, there's a term that's not used very much in business these days. But maybe when you and I were growing up a spree decor is the spirit of the group, the spirit of the core of people, if you will, a spread a core is a sort of archaic word almost. And yet, when you look at the conversations that are going on in the big businesses, they're now talking about purpose and culture. What they're really after is a spree decor because that is engagement. Again, another big sort of fancy word in the business buzzwords, if you will. The Gallup made popular engagement is the process of creating a spree decor. That's what they're looking for. So in the The on purpose business person actually, I have an equation that I wrote, I wrote this first in the late 1980s. And I call it the on purpose principle. And the purpose principle is simple. And that is the purpose of the person, I'll do it from the perspective of you, it's the purpose of the person aligned with the purpose of the organization, when that happens. That is where the magic is, that is where the energy is. Because now you have a person who is engaged, they belong, they feel like they belong, they have a sense of personal significance. And they're making a significant contribution to the overall benefit of the organization. And

Greg Voisen
I remember the days and you you do as well, Richard Baird is a great friend. But he used to call it the soul of the corporation. Right? In other words, he taught a whole model in many, many businesses worldwide, including the World Bank, about around looking at the sole reason of this corporation, what is the soul? Most people don't think corporations have a soul to be honest with you? I mean, many of our listeners out there, like, Oh, they're all about money, all they really want to do is, you know, I'm gonna use Apple again, they're worth two and a half trillion dollars, right? They want to make more money. But really, they all have a soul, whether they've identified it or not. Right. And that brings me to this question. How do you envision the CLO fostering more people centered approaches in organizations? And what are some of the strategies for transitioning from a CEO mindset to that of a chief leadership officer mindset? Because that will go along with the chief leadership officer book?

Kevin W. McCarthy
Right? Well, the the answer to the second question is really in the first question, which is, you know, the question is, how do you develop this, this reality for people in terms of this connection? First of all, I think what you, what we first have to recognize is, if the human being is the raw material that we're we have, so to speak, that you are attempting to work with within how you know, but how do you bring them in. And so, you know, people are complex. And today, what I believe we really have with the crises of anxiety, the crisis of confidence, the difficulties that are facing the drug issues, all of these ultimately stem from lack of meaning. There's a common root. And so meaning is something that everybody's looking for. So what happens is when companies step along, and they try to provide the meaning, they are, in essence, putting themselves into a very dangerous position, if you will, because what we want is people who bring meaning to their work, so that the work is actually neutral, and people bring the meaning to it. So it is a way of looking at it and saying that people are searching for meaning and to make a difference. So how do we communicate that our purpose as an organization is not just to make a widget, but it is how we are serving society. So there's a larger perspective on

Greg Voisen
you. When you say that, Kevin, it brings me back to I remember, in college, I was a business major. And that's what I majored in Business Management. And we used to do the time and motion studies and Demings. Right. And I was thinking about Frederick Taylor, that was actually a year right, Frederick Taylor. And, and I remember it was all about us being able to cut little areas out and watch people's movement, because all we really wanted to do is be more efficient and more productive. Right? How is that whole concept around productivity now, and having a humanistic approach, right, to treating people who work with you, not for you? Because before it always used to be you work for me, you're here eight to five you produce and you produce at the highest maximum capacity. How is all of that kind of mesh together these days? Because it seems pretty blurry to be honest with you.

Kevin W. McCarthy
It is oriented at some level. One of things I talk about is that a Cl O is what I call a steward leader. A lot of people talk about servant leadership. And I prefer the term steward leadership. In other words, they look at it and they say, my job is to bring out the best break. You know, I have, I have kind of come to maturity as a leader. I understand who I am, where I'm going, how I want to get there. What's important. I have I'm uncomfortable within my own skin as a leader. Now, how do I help more people do that, who are similarly equipped and called for the service and the work that we need to have done within our organization. So it is requiring, frankly, maturity. Of that that's not an age issue. It's a maturity of of understanding of who one is, you can have it in 10 year olds, you can have it in 100 year olds, the fact of the matter is, I find that sadly, most people resist maturity, particularly men, we men are really not good at maturing women because of maybe, you know, again, child rearing, birthing, and all of that that goes with it, they have a responsibility that comes on them a risk factor of getting pregnant, all of these sorts of things that women tend to mature much more quickly than men in terms of understanding the fullness of responsibility, where, and interestingly, if you look at most CEOs, even in today's world, they're men, and are they men who have decided to be mature? Or are they just playing a game of power, which is often what you find in the CEO role? Again, I'm friends with a lot of top level CEOs, they're good men and good women. But they tend to be not, you know, the ones I know, are just great people. So in many ways, they feel a responsibility to how do I bring up other people? How do I raise up other people? So this this idea of being a steward of bregs talents, and helping him to raise that up? It's not a it's not a paternal approach? It's more like a coach, who's saying how do I get the best out of this team?

Greg Voisen
How does the CLO effectively balance and that's where this is because the human capital side of the balance sheet is a big side, that's what we're talking about, but balance the needs of the stakeholders, all the stakeholders, because you've got stockholders stakeholders, while driving organizational success, and while keeping this what I want to call fundamental essence of our purpose at the forefront, and sometimes making very hard decisions about which direction to guide this company. I've been on here lately with just two books recently around values. And one of the stories which is told in many of these books is the bad decisions Volkswagen made, if you remember, right, versus the good decision that Samsung made when the phone started melting. There, they pulled it off the market redesigned and came back out again, and had three orders that were double what the orders were before. Right. So those kinds of decisions to protect the public to do what's right. Versus do like in Volkswagens case, I think they're still trying to come back from that debacle. Those are two good examples, actually. Right, of not upholding the values and values lead to purpose. Right?

Kevin W. McCarthy
Yes. Well, no, actually the other way around.

Greg Voisen
Okay.

Kevin W. McCarthy
Okay, let me You've touched on a couple of things. First of all, let me say something, the use of human capital is another pejorative term. It's relating people to money, I realize that some level productivity and all of these things they matter. But if you call somebody human capital, how would you like, Hey, Greg, it's nice to see you. You're really nice human capital. Hmm. It doesn't feel real warm and friendly, does it? And you know, what's going on this is see, what I'm saying is we're looking at people as numbers. So in the CLO mindset, what you're looking at is the triple, it's a different triple bottom line than the environmentalists will use. Okay. Environmentalists will talk about, you know, the planet, but I like to look at it and say the real triple bottom line that the CLO is using is first it's looking at, we have a stewardship of the purpose of the organization, we have a stewardship of the people, and we have a stewardship of the profit of the organization. And these things are not necessarily balanced, they're integrated. It's how do we blend these things? There's a certain amount of art and science to it. But it is basically sitting there saying, you know, at some level, I've got to make all of these things work now to the idea of values and the relationship to purpose. This little character I have up here and he may be new to you, Greg, I don't know if you've seen him before.

Greg Voisen
I remember him Yeah.

Kevin W. McCarthy
I call him the on purpose PAL and I think We're really getting at is the differences between purpose, vision, mission and values here? So, purpose, as you can see, is a matter of the heart that this is why do I exist? The head? Is your vision, this is what's in your mind's eye, what do you see? Where am I going, it's future oriented, the hands and feet are yellow. And that's the missions, this is what we do. And then the values reside in the throat and the gut. And the values govern our decisions. But they are informed by our purpose. And so at some level, the relationship you can see because values are in our throat and our gut, the heart is in the middle of this, it is it's, it's, they have this wonderful combination, because they tend to be the most timeless purposes. Permanent values, however, can change, we as we mature and grow, we learn. We are purposes like spiritual DNA, it were born with it, it's there as a human. Now as an organization, can the purpose the organization change? Yes. And a purpose of an organization can change? Does the purpose of a person change? No, not really. It's like saying your DNA, your physical DNA doesn't change. However, what does change is your understanding, as you mature, you start to understand. So people will say to word purpose statements that they get from on purpose stop me is something that begins to refine over time. And these symbols in tends to stay there.

Greg Voisen
Don't these organizations need to go through I'm recalling, actually, believe it or not, Michael Gale sent me an email yesterday. And I forgot that he was co author on the healing organization with Raasch. And I look at this, he, uh, you know, there's so many books out there today that are around healing the organization. And when I say healing it really doing what we're talking about here today. But in your book, you mentioned reforming in business, right? What are some of the fundamental changes you advocate for a modern organization, who today is seeking to have this essence of purpose, to live that purpose and kind of I'm going to call it imbibe it, you know, it's in, it's not just hung on the wall, everybody's really living it. And I know that there's examples out there, like the young man who started Zappos, I mean, it was a great organization. Unfortunately, he's no longer with us. But the reality is, there's lots of examples like that, and and Patagonia, places like that, how do you get these companies to reform themselves or heal themselves so that they can actually see this? Yeah,

Kevin W. McCarthy
well, the reason I talk about a reformation as opposed to a I'm not a revolutionary is probably the best way to describe it. I'm truly trying to work within the current business framework. So I like I said, I'm a huge fan of business. I'm a fan of capitalism, I just believe that what happens is if you have people who are purely profit takers, as opposed to profit makers, that they are going to do whatever they can, without the ethic or the values and the purpose that we're describing. And there's a lot of ethical dilemmas that go on, particularly, the larger the business gets, I think the more those ethical dilemmas begin to emerge in mid sized companies where the owner or is ethical, that ethic tends to come from that person. So at some level, again, I'm a believer in in helping people individually understand their personal purpose, their personal vision, their personal missions, and their personal values, and then saying, and then for the company to say, here's our purpose, here's our vision, here's our mission, here's our values, do we align. And if we align, we have a great fit. If we don't align, let's talk about it. And if it because maybe I have something to learn from you, and you have something to learn from me. So again, it takes a mature conversation and unwillingness to be transparent about that. And then, you know, now collectively, if we agree, I think the reasons you know, whether it's a Ben and Jerry's or the original Ben and Jerry's.

Greg Voisen
I'm glad you clarified that,

Kevin W. McCarthy
you know, or a Patagonia or a Southwest Airlines is a company that had a great culture in terms of what they were about, and these are some of the stories that we've heard for years. Ultimately, it comes down to you have this purpose, vision, mission and values What I like to do is then say to the companies look, most people don't relate to purpose, vision, mission values there, you need to do it. And if you can help them understand it individually, then when you present your purpose, vision, mission and values, they're like, I get it. Because I understand my purpose, vision, mission and values. Therefore, when instead of it being corporate speak, it registers with me, I get what you're talking about. So I usually will say to a client of mine, look, let's do your purpose, vision, mission and values. But let's prepare your team by having them do their purpose, vision, mission and values. One it's going to, it almost immediately gives an internal locus of control to the individual. Now, some people will resist that, they're not prepared for that, I get that, but many people are ready for that they're hungry for that internal locus of control, as opposed to being outer directed, they now become more of an inner directed individual or an upper directed is another way to think about it. And so now you can begin the alignment process of what's going on. Now, the truth is, you know, if, you know, there if, if you were talking to a kid who played baseball, and the, you know, I grew up in Pittsburgh, and the Pittsburgh Pirates were to offer him a job to come work with me, I'm all over, that's great, you know, they're looking for that alignment, because they love baseball, they love this. So most people, you know, again, the heart purpose is this heart issue. And so it's about love. And so people will will gravitate towards something that they think they really love to be about doing, or an organization, they would love to be a part of, unfortunately, what will happen is, a lot of times they get into it, and they discover, hey, it's not as the bed of roses I thought it was going to be and again, this is a matter of is the is the CLO cultivating a culture, that the role is cultivating of a culture is as important as cultivating a profit. Well, I would even say more important because the it's the culture that produces the profit.

Greg Voisen
And pardon me, and I think, as a society, you and I, and everybody out there who listens to this podcast has seen the divisiveness which is occurred in this country, both politically, racially, the issues we're having across the world, it hasn't helped people come together collaboratively by any means, especially at our governmental levels. We've just seen so much divisiveness that seems like when I say nothing is getting done. But that same kind of thing can happen inside of a corporation, where you see this divisiveness where the ego is off the wall. And it has to be right. And I think that Chief leadership officer has to rest the ego, and has to be able to be collaborative, there are certain words that we use today to do this. How do you see technology? This is where this question is going. And digital transformation influencing the role of a chief leadership officer. Because today, you said everybody's sitting there like this, right. And most of us are most of these corporations, there's a huge element of, you know, whether they're in sales or marketing, or they're in middle management, the way they communicate, how they communicate, all affects the culture and the mood of the organization. And it also has to be, I'm gonna say kind of coveted with this chief leadership office mindset. Everybody has to have it, not just the chief leadership, that everybody in the organization. So what would you say about that? How's that?

Kevin W. McCarthy
First of all, I don't believe everybody has to have and I think the goal would be for everybody to have it. But the reality is that if you have a core of maybe 25 to 30% of the people that have that, then they are more likely to to create the culture than other people who are young or maybe young. I mean, an immature in that sense, not only age wise, we've never experienced what it's like to be in a culture like that. They're the ones that are going to catch it. And then sort of go with the flow. There's a lot of people that are going to go with the flow. So you have the 20% that are positive and the 20% that are negative, and you've got the other 60% in the middle, just sort of seeing which team is going to win. And so at some level, if you've got this 20% that are positive that are about what it's about and you you say we're going to reinforce that behavior, then that's the team that is going to win. However, if you have the negative group, the and I'm going to talk about the profit takers, I'm in it for me this is, you know, it's, again, it's the stewardship leadership concept that What are you stewarding in the organization. And because what you steward is what you're going to get

Greg Voisen
what you mentioned a second ago that you take all the people through the on purpose person, and I want to mention this again, on purpose dot knee. So many of the interviews, I do want to let people know about this resource, because it's a great resource to come up with their purpose statement, if you would, because there may be organizations that aren't going to do this, but individuals that want to do it, this goes back to, hey, I'm gonna get the on purpose person book. And I'm going to create, I'm going to go to on purpose.me. And I'm going to create my statement. That really innovative itself, if you're seeking meaning, and you want to move from significance, or you want to move from, you know, not having any significance in your life to having six, significance and meaning and purpose. This is a great way to talk a little bit about that website, what I might experience as a result of going there as an individual. And then hey, maybe even at promoting it to my CEO, so that he or she would actually go there and engage with the process as well. Yeah,

Kevin W. McCarthy
the process is a pretty simple one. I mean, you go on, you purchase the tool, you get a couple of emails, the first email says you've purchased it, the second email says, Here's your credentials, so that you can log on. Once you log on, it takes, you know, you're going in, and you're presented with a series of choices to word purpose statements. Now I'm about to word purpose statements, because they're memorable. They're powerful. They're again, it's like spiritual DNA, X and a Y chromosome. So you're presented with a choice of this two word purpose statement, or that two word purpose statement, you tap, if you're using your phone, I suggest people use a phone or something that they can tap on. Because it just there's something about the tapping process, I don't know what it is, it's just more tactile, I think, as opposed to a click. Again, you can do it on a computer and or electronic device, but you tap on, which is the most meaningful to word purpose statement for you, then you're presented another set of choices, then another set of choices, another set of choices. And much like a tennis tournament, or a March Madness basketball event that's going on behind the scenes, there's a tennis tournament running. So as you choose between these two, it's going to advance this one to the next round, as you choose between this, it's going to advance. So this process of advancement comes along and at the end of this, you come up with a choice between the last two choices that you've made. And you're presented with your final choice. And then along with that, you send an email that you see it. And then you're sent an email that says here's your two word purpose statement. And then you receive an email series that helps you to better understand that what it is you have purpose in general, why it's different than vision and missions. And then another thing that's included in the, in the purchase is access to a free once a month refine your purpose statement. That's a live zoom call that I that I host with anybody that's been a customer of that tool, and wants to come on and talk about their two word purpose statement, why it's fitting why it isn't now statistically, what we have Greg is amazing. Statistics show us that eight out of 10 people rate their two word purpose statement and eight out of 10 or higher, and 50% of actually 52% of the people will give their two word purpose statement a 10 out of 10. So it actually is, tends to be extraordinarily accurate. Now, for some people, they're two word purpose statement may be aspirational. For some people, they look at it and say, oh my gosh, that's who I was when I was a little girl. And that's who I am today. And that's what I wanted to do tomorrow. And it just oh my gosh, my life. It just it's like the I describe it a times it's like a lock and it's been stuck. And that last tumbler clicks and all of a sudden the door opens and it's like that's who I am. I get it now.

Greg Voisen
That's a it's a good way to go about it. I remember when you had the book and we were doing it we did the playoffs too that way, except they weren't to word purpose statements. I remember mine because I still carry it today. I exist to serve to inspire passion. And you and I had a long dialogue about the word passion and what it meant. biblically. And I still say that my role in what I'm doing is always about bringing people from the darkness to the light from understanding something. If you look at my podcast show, almost 1100 podcasts, that's what we attempt to do is always bring white where there might be misunderstanding or something like that. So it still fits for me, right? I know it. I can say it right? Even though it's not two words. I'm gonna go through that round and see what my two word one turns out to be. Yeah, actually,

Kevin W. McCarthy
it is because you said inspiring passion. Right? Okay. And by the way, it's not inspire passion, it's inspiring passion, it's an active verb, it's an it's a gerund in an object. So the active, inspiring passion, it's what you were doing, it's what you are doing, it's what you will be doing. Right. And for you, there's a greater meaning to that you can take the word passion, you can seek the biblical reference to it, you can also look at it and say, you know, Greg, you're an enthusiastic guy, I've known you a long time. You know, you're a guy who brings enthusiasm, you light up a room, in that regard. So these are the sorts of things that why it's a good fit for you and to inspire means to breathe in, to, to breathe in. So you are also feeding yourself with stuff that inspires you. So it's not just a matter of the air, exactly.

Greg Voisen
It's not a one way street. Because every podcast I do I learn from, and all those learnings I put together when I go out to see clients, and so it becomes a true value. And speaking of value, what is that value proposition for somebody who wants to go to the website? What is the investment, it's $20 $20. So everybody truly who's listening here $20 is insignificant amount of money, I'm sure you can afford it. Most everyone who listens to the show, go try it out. The other thing is we'd get a copy of either the on purpose person the on purpose business or the chief leadership officer, we'll put links to all three of those. Now, we talked about companies that were examples of where chief leadership is, we've mentioned many of them at this point. What are the common misconceptions or resistances, you've encountered when promoting the idea of a CL, what happens? Like you go into a corporation, you talk to the CEO, or him or her? And they're like, Hey, Kevin, we just don't have time for this nonsense. We're too busy. You know, what, what, what do you what are you finding is the resistance?

Kevin W. McCarthy
Well, it really comes down to the CEO. And the truth of the matter is, I've had a lot of resistance. Because what I generally find fact, I had a really interesting conversation about this the other day with a good friend of mine. I've also known him for over 30 years, who's been a fan of the fan of the on purpose person in my work for these many decades. And basically, we were talking about the difference between concrete thinkers and concept thinkers. And what happens is, if somebody is a concrete thinker, that means they're practical. They're in the moment, that's what they tend to see where concept thinker tends to be more global, and they're looking, they're visionary, and what's going on. So what I generally find is those people that are concrete thinkers, it's sometimes beyond their ability to grasp what we're actually discussing today. It's just not the way they're wired. It's not the way they see it. And so they go down their concrete path of Money, money, profit, profit, profit, is sort of their triple bottom line. And what they what they're failing to recognize is that because it's profit, profit, profit, they're probably churning out people or there's things going on within their organization that is actually diminishing their profit proposition because they're having to over manage the people in the business, where the concept people that also, again, there's an integration of these things. It's it's not either or it's both. And so at some level, the concept person gets the concept, but if they don't, if they're not running a good solid business, then what the heck's the point? They still both have to make a profit. Remember, profit is the the byproduct of the health of the organization. If the organization is not healthy, you know, it can go on for quite a while. I mean, look around us. There's a lot of morbidly obese people who are actively involved in their community working on but we can all look at it and say they're a walking heart attack. Well, there's a lot of businesses that are walking heart attacks. They just haven't, it just hasn't hit yet. And so they're paying, they're going to pay the price. They may not be paying it right now, but they will be paying the price. And that will come in the form of they're not able to compete, the way that they used to be able to compete, where their momentum will finally catch up with them, they will finally run out of momentum, if you will, that's

Greg Voisen
a great way to put it. And in summing up this interview, what I like to do is give you one last question for our listeners, and I think a good one. And that is, what advice would you give to any aspiring leader, whatever position they're in now, but there is Brian who wants to adopt more people centric approach to their leadership role. And I will add to that is being embraced by upper management, if they're in middle management, to actually be more people centric, to actually be more like a chief leadership officer, not as the command and control kind of thing, what advice would you have for them?

Kevin W. McCarthy
Well, first of all, do your own work? I mean, if you're not, you know, if you have to look at yourself and say, Okay, there's there's three primary competencies that one needs to have in order to really truly be a clo. One is you better have a technical a talent. So let's just take we'll take a business like ice cream company, how's that? If you need to, when it starts up? You better make damn good ice cream? Yeah, yeah. So that's your technical ability, okay, then you better you have a business ability, which is you better be able to account for hire, do the things that are around business, you know, production, efficiencies, effectiveness. The third competency is the leadership competency. And then in the middle of all that that Venn diagram is purpose. So purpose is informing at all. And so what you find is that young person that says, I love to make ice cream, they're going to be attracted to this company want to go in and involved in working with ice cream, they're going to be on the business side of the production side, the technical side. And so they sort of fall in love with it. But as they get better at their job, they say we want to give you a raise, now they put them into the business side, where they have a raise, they have some responsibilities, they have some duties, they have reports they have to fill out. But now they have people that report to them. So their leadership begins to grow. What you generally find is if you look at the career path of somebody, that these three bubbles with the purpose of the center, they rise, and they fall over the career. But the general trend is the as you grow to become a CEO, slash Cl O, your technical ability diminishes, it's less of a it's less important that you know how to make the recipe. And it's more important that you're able to be a leader, so that these three competencies, they sort of wax and wane over one's career with the trend towards technical business leadership. Those are the growth patterns that you want to be on. Well,

Greg Voisen
I just had Chip Conley on here, and he just wrote a book around living in midlife. Right. And I think one of the things is, is when he worked at Airbnb, they hired him as the elder. Because you everybody there was in their 20s. And they needed somebody. And I think a lot of people who are aging in the workplace, I want to throw this out to him. You get these concepts, usually, because you've had incidences in your life, where you've had to actually grow yourself, forcefully, sometimes you have to grow, you have to figure it out, you have to let the ego go and you have to go with it. I'm going to endorse this highly the chief leadership officer book, I'm going to endorse the on purpose business book as well go out and get that and I would say go to on purpose.me That little $20 tool could change your life. Kevin has been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth today and sharing more of your insights about what is so vitally important today in the business world, and I hope everybody out there is listening takes an opportunity to go to that website. And if you want to learn more about Kevin and his background, and also his books and so on, go to kevinmccarthy.com. That's mccarthy.com.

Kevin W. McCarthy
It's Kevin W, Kevin W.

Greg Voisen
Oh, I forgot the W. Okay, that's right. Make sure we put the W in that as well. It's kevinwmccarthy.com. And I'll repeat that again, Kevin W. McCarthy. There'll be a link in our blog to that as well. Kevin, thanks so much for being on Inside Personal Growth and sharing your wisdom today and helping our people better understand the power of purpose.

Kevin W. McCarthy
Thank you, Greg. It's delightful to be with you again.