Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And we have Amy Gallo joining us and Amy, where are you today? I know you're at home.

Amy Gallo
I'm at home, where's home? Home is Providence, Rhode Island, the tiniest country.

Greg Voisen
but one of the biggest and best. So you will just say that Amy came way of me by Connie Steele, I was just telling her another author in the Virginia area, and she has a new book out called getting along. Okay, and the subtitle is probably more important, and work with anyone, even difficult people. And this is a Harvard Business Review book. And for all of you out there, we're going to put a link to the book and a link to Amy's website as well. But I will tell them a little bit about you, Amy as well, so that they know. Again, she's the author of Getting Along: How to Work with Anyone (Even Difficult People), the HBr Guide to Dealing with Conflict. She also co-hosts Women at Work podcast, and is a contributing editor at Harvard Business Review, where she writes about workplace dynamics. This is a phenomenal book, it's a book that anyone out there, who's challenged today in the workspace, and I always say even in the personal space, should pick up and read. Because it's really about the archetypes, understanding the people. And it's the solutions to dealing with those kinds of people in your life. And a lot of times, we don't know how to identify how someone's reacting or being right. So Amy's got not only ideas, well founded solutions for this. And so let's just get into any use, you know, I love how you did the introduction to the book. One was you had this difficult boss sounded like a real pain in the ass to me. And the introduction and the story, it's certainly not one that all listeners have experienced at some time. There's always a difficult person that we're dealing with at one point in our life. We know that the effects on our psyche really take a toll emotionally. And because we take it personally, you know, it's like Carlos, the guy that wrote, I'm trying to remember the name of the book. But he said like, first thing is don't take it personally. But it's so hard not to take it personally. What advice would you give to the listeners about dealing with difficult people? And not taking it personally?

Amy Gallo
Yeah, I mean, it's, oh, it's so hard to do. I mean, I write about this day in and day out. And I also take these things personally, and I certainly did with that box. I saw that as a personal failure, because I prided myself on someone, as someone who could get along with anyone. And suddenly, I'm presented with this person who is, you know, making me stay up at night ruminating about her behavior, questioning my behavior, wondering whether I was living according to my values, right. So it's, it's, you know, it is really hard not to take personally, but I will say a couple things. Number one, try to right size, that relationship in your life. And by that I mean, chances are, even if you're dealing with 123, even four or five difficult people at work, chances are you have very good relationships with others, whether that's coworkers, whether that's people outside work, really try to make sure you're focusing on those positive relationships as well. And that's because the often the negative relationships will take up such a large portion of our brain that it sort of becomes all consuming, and that that's really not helpful, both from a resilience perspective. But then you also take away from those positive, you know, sort of reinforcing joyous energizing relationships you'll have. Now the second thing I'll say, and this is sort of along the lines of don't take it personally, but don't allow that person to or that interaction to make you feel like this is help that this is how a reflection on you. Right. It's not about whether you are good enough at handling difficult people or whether you know how to communicate clearly. Chances are that dynamic between you there's a lot of reasons. It's not healthy. And yes, you probably play a role, but it's not because of you. And I think that's the other piece of it is that both you didn't cause this and it's not entirely yours to solve However, you do have the ability to take some action to make the situation better. And that's, that's the third thing I'll say is you have agency, sometimes it can feel like these relationships are happening to us or these difficult people are setting us up. And you actually have the ability to take action. And maybe those are very small steps you take, maybe there's some of the bigger tactics that I share in the book, but it's in your control. And I think that can help restore a little bit of the sort of agency sense of agency that we need in order to be constructive take action and to have, you know, healthy wellbeing.

Greg Voisen
You know, it's really interesting, you're speaking about this. And just yesterday, I have a broker at Schwab, who literally had a difficult boss, and he was discriminated against. So ultimately, he put him under such pressure for productivity that this young man quick, didn't fire, he quit, because of the pressure, just that this person didn't like him. And as I was listening to the story, I said, you know, I'm not gonna say his name. Can, can you take something positive from this? What could you learn and take away from this difficult person, so that when you hire on somewhere else, where this new place is you're going to go? It would be a perspective you could bring into the arena, which would make it easier for you. And he goes, wow, you put that in a way he says, because I'm just kind of vindictive, I was just really pissed off. All I wanted to do was, you know, go to HR and tell HR, this was the worst manager ever had, and all that kind of stuff. So I get it. And that's what this book is about, so that you don't have to go to the HR department and talk to the manager. It's about you fixing that. So you state that you're an advocate for friendship at work. This is one of those where friendship didn't work. And you cite I hope I'm saying this right. Vivek Murthy, the US Surgeon Vivek Murthy is a Surgeon General and his book together, friendships are fundamentally connected to professional success. And it's our relationship that we find the emotional substance and power we need to thrive. What are some of the benefits of having friends at work? And one, according to the Gallup polls, because, you know, people talk about this whole thing with friendships at work. And it's very confusing, you know, am I supposed to great friends and bosses, frequently applied managers ago, you're going to be on a good upline manager. They can't be your friends. Right? Because, yeah, they're not your friends. So speak with us about it, because I believe the Surgeon General is right. And I believe Gallup is, right.

Amy Gallo
Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I think for a long time, we thought there was danger and having close relationships with at work, because we might have to deliver bad news, or we might have to have a difficult conversation. But if you have the skills to do those things, you can still be friends. And in fact, the research very clearly backs that up. I mean, Gallup has been, you know, studying friends. And, you know, they've actually been asking for decades about friendship in their studies. And there have, they have long been reporting of a strong connection between having a best friend at work, and employee engagement. And in fact, those who say they do have a best friend at work are seven times more likely to be engaged in their jobs, to be better at engaging customers to produce higher quality work, and even have higher wellbeing. So interestingly, this was one of the studies from Gallup that I found really fascinating. They're also less likely to get injured on the job. And I'm not exactly sure what the what the connection there is, other than that, we know, we are better at work, right? social connections are a predictor of cognitive functioning, resilience, engagement, right? There was really interesting study I came a higher levels of productivity to Yes. And in fact, this is this is one of my favorite studies I found in the in the work I read my work for this book was that a research team at Rutgers found that groups of colleagues who thought of one another as friends actually got higher scores on their performance reviews. Right? So we really are seeing this isn't soft, right? I think a lot of times we think about friendships at work as like icing on the cake, or as making us feel good while we do the hard work, but it's actually having friends at work and feeling socially connected to our colleagues makes the work better. We are better at it. And so I think we can't dismiss the importance of these connections.

Greg Voisen
Well, I think you I think as an individual with friends at work you bring hire value and collaboration skills as well. And that collaboration skills helps to solve problems for the company, especially when you're doing doesn't mean you're always doing it at work. You know, a lot of times you're talking about work when you're out having a pizza or something, right. But the reality is, is that ideas, foster creativity, fosters productivity increases, camaraderie increases, fun increases, and it's really important to have fun at work. And you can best have fun at work when you're literally working around a lot of people that you like. So, you know, I hope this whole mysticism around your boss and you're not a friend, really can be dismayed. It's like, it's like, it's not really true. That still can happen. And if you would speak about our brains on conflict, you know, like we just talked about this guy would conflict. He was just really like, vindictive. I gotta, I gotta get this guy back. You quote Victor Franco Frankel. And this is a very well-known statement that he said that probably most listeners know, but between the stimulus and response, there's space. And in that space, it's our power to choose the response. And again, I totally agree to what Frankl said, who is in the concentration camps? And what advice would you give our listeners about choosing the best response to conflict, because I don't think you could have been in a more difficult position than to be in a concentration camp, with an SS officer trying to break down and make you vulnerable, right? And talk about conflict, because you can imagine what they must have felt about these people who were trying to break them down. const, just like this young man said, it was honestly it was almost like the story of the concentration camp with this young man with a boss telling him you're not worthy, you're not good. You're not performing. You're not doing whatever. And he just finally broke on his own. He broke in I mean, one thing I didn't say about the story, is that since he has now been out of work for months, depressed, depressed as a result of what happened.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I, you know, what, a lot of rooms doing on conflict? Yeah,

Amy Gallo
I mean, the in the thing is, our brain isn't very good at determining, really the difference between threats. So the threat to our lives, obviously, that's an incredibly grave threat, we have a stress response to that threat, which is actually pretty similar to when someone makes us feel devalued, or, or dehumanized. And so, you know, obviously, you know, having an unpleasant manager, or even a vindictive manager, or an abusive manager is very different than being in a concentration camp, but our brains doing the same thing, and what Frankl was really talking about was the choice that we have in terms of how we react, that we don't have to be subjected to the terms of or the conditions around us. But then we get to choose how we want to behave. Now, again, that's not very easy to do, because our brain is going to have this moment of protecting us, which is going to either feel vindictive, angry, shut down, right, the fight or flight reaction is very strong, and all of us. So to get yourself out of that, you know, and what this is what emotional intelligence experts call amygdala hijack, where it's the amygdala, the part of our brain that takes over that's responsible for protection and for safety, you know, shuts it, it takes dominance over the prefrontal cortex, which is a rational thinking part of our brain. So we make choices that maybe would be best if we were truly being physically threatened. But when it's just we didn't get away out, or when the project plan or this person is behaving passive aggressively toward us, or shooting down our ideas, that's not an appropriate response. And so, what we want to do instead is sort of observe our reactions, right? What happens when you have that unpleasant interaction with a coworker, you know, for me, I get into telling my stories of this is all their fault, but i They're an evil person, right? Or blaming myself, what have I done wrong? Why can't I handle this? You know, or try to completely disengage like this isn't my worth my time? I'm done. Right, but Seagal Barcia, who's one of the amazing professor, unfortunately, who passed away last year, she talks about emotions as data do not noise because I think oftentimes we have those feelings like this. This guy you're talking about, we have these feelings. We want to get back at someone. We're so angry, and we think oh gosh, that's let me get through that noise, but those are that's data about what you care about what matters to you what your values are. So pay attention to those and observing your reactions and your emotions and asking yourself, what matters to you is going to help calm that, that amygdala, you can also reappraise it, you actually did that for that gentleman by saying, you know, what could you learn from this. So rather than seeing challenges as challenges, but as opportunities, is a really great psychological tool that helps us get out of that fight or flight reaction. So, you know, when instead of, you know, again, seeing it as a vaccine situation, you know, ask yourself, what can I learn here? And, you know, rather than a threat, like what is what's the opportunity? What are the thoughts running through your mind? Are they helpful? Is there a way to reframe them as neutral or positive? You know, if you're laser focused on a know it all colleague, right, that's one of the archetypes I talked about the book, and how they're just so excruciating to be with. Right? Can you tell yourself that when you actually put aside for a moment, their condescending tone, or that maybe their rants actually have a nugget of truth? Right, can you find, and I don't want you to be pollyannish or naive, and, and dismiss the real harm they're doing? But what's the what's the opportunity for you?

Greg Voisen
And yeah, you know, it's, it's when you are put in a position where the time between stimulus and response, it's always been said, you know, take a deep breath, right. In other words, breathe into it, because it's giving you time before you become emotionally reactive, and then fall off or say something that you didn't want to say or, and then that creates even more conflict, because and then it gets to be a circle. And when you look at fights or conflict, it's really this escalation of one person jabbing another person jabbing and jabbing back and jabbing back until it escalates into something that's very quite uncomfortable. And you know, in many cases, you may not call it a fight, but it's a mental fight. It's a mental struggle that you're having, and you don't want to deal with it. So you walk away from it. And some people are passive will just walk from that. Just go no, not, I don't want it anymore. You spent a good percentage of your book speaking about the archetypes and characteristics of difficult and challenging people. You also provide the reader tactics on how to deal with most effectively these archetypes which you outlined in the book, can you give the listeners a little overview of these archetypes of which there's eight, and the tactics to deal with these archetypes and I think this is an important part of the book. Because, you know, if you look at chapter after chapter, it's kind of about an archetype. And it's about an archetype and then reflection, you know, what, what can you think about regarding this archetype, we may not have time to cover all eight of them, because I do want to get to the important chapter, which is chapter 11, that speaks about, you know, some of these principles. But I do want the, the listeners to understand how you've approached this book, and how you can help them kind of quantify certain individuals behavior into an archetype.

Amy Gallo
Yeah, so and, like you said, we don't have time to go through all of the archetypes, what motivates that behavior, what the tactics are, but I'll give an overview of the of the eight and talk about some of the tactics because I think I think they give, they're helpful, and the reason I organize the book around archetypes, even though I don't believe in labeling people, right, these are not meant to be labels that you slap on someone to say, I'm done with you. This is dismissive. You know, it's, it's really they're meant to help you get access to the specific advice you need. So if you're dealing with an insecure manager, the tactics you use are going to be different than if you're dealing with a No at all, for example,

Greg Voisen
and you also have a chart in the appendix. Yes. Which breaks it all down, and it says, archetype. What chapter common behaviors. And so if you really go to the Pages 254 55 For those people who buy the book, if you really want the shortcut, just go there. That's

Amy Gallo
right. That's right. So let me let me just say what the archetypes are just because I think there'll be familiar to people you know, there, there's the insecure manager, right, this person who, who is not feeling stable in their position or confident in their position and so therefore, they do things like micromanage they maybe block off your ability to interact with others, right. These are these are the folks that are really seem you know, they're trying to protect their ego because their ego for them is at risk in in their position. Then, of course, you Have the pessimist and this is the person who, you know, really believes that bad things are gonna happen. They, you know, worry about that. But then they also use this that worry to shoot down ideas. There's a flavor of the pessimist which is another chapter called the victim. And that's someone who not only believes bad things are gonna happen, but bad things don't happen just to them, right and they really feel like people are out to get them that circumstances or are you know, colluding against them. And that can also be a really tough behavior to deal with. Then there's the passive aggressive peer, right, the person who is not forthcoming about what they're really thinking or feeling. And so they use indirect methods to express those things, you know, often driven by failure, or rejection, and then we have the No at all. This is actually the one I relate to the most not because I have worked with a lot of no one else, but I've been to No at all. This is the person obviously, who's condescending, feels like they need to take up a lot of space, they may be chronic interrupters, or even man splinters. There's the tormentor, which is someone who you expect to be a mentor. But they actually really are seemed to be set on making your life miserable. You know, they've made sacrifices, so they think you should too. There's the bias, coworker who commits regular micro aggressions, you know, discriminates against you. And then you have the political operator. So this is someone who, you know, engages in office politics, which we all do, but really engages it in a way that doesn't show concern for anyone else. So isn't worried about stepping on other people's toes, or even diminishing people's accomplishments in order to look better themselves? So in each chapter, I talk about what are the common behaviors, what's motivating this behavior? But then also, what tactics can you try. And the tactics generally, this isn't probably an oversimplification, but there's ones that are sort of indirect. So if we take the insecure manager, for example, research shows that actually calming their ego, oftentimes, with some well-placed compliments, genuine compliments, can help get them to be a little more open to your ideas to trust you a little bit more. So that might be an indirect method. Whereas there might be a more direct message. So for a No at all, for example, asking for facts and data when they claim something that they have no reason to actually believe, saying, what are you basing that on? Right? Could you share what facts and data have informed your assumptions there? Right, and then even with, you know, some of the behaviors, you might even call it out more clearly, and say, you know, wake the political operator, you know, you seem really focused on getting credit for this, and you don't seem to care that others are not getting credit, can you can you make sure that we're all sharing, dispersed, especially since we've all contributed to the to that work? So you know, it's an I do try and each chapter also to share sample language. So, you know, what are the words you can use to actually put some of this advice in practice? Because that's one of the things I find most difficult is when I get advice, like, okay, that makes sense, in theory, but what do I actually say? So I've tried to really give people phrases they can use to put some of that advice into practice.

Greg Voisen
Well, I think you're very tactful. And there's diplomacy associated with the way in which you communicate with anybody. And I think if you take that, between the stimulus and the response, and you take time to take a breath, most likely the words coming out of your mouth to communicate to the individual, even if not in a script, but in a way in which you're dampening any kind of conflict that might occur are going to be bet you're going to be better off. And I think that's really important. And you know, in chapter 11, which you said, is one of your best chapters in the book, you talk about the nine principles for getting along with anybody that's important for people picking up this book, your friends principle is focused on what you can control. Why is this principle so important? And what does it help us in and why does it help us in resolving conflict?

Amy Gallo
Yeah, well, I think in some ways, it's important because it's, it's always got to be, you know, if you and I, Greg are in in disagreement, and we're having an unhealthy interaction. And I think, well, I just have to get Greg to change, right? I'm setting myself up for failure, because you're going to change if and when you want to. And certainly a lot of the tactics I share will help nudge you into better behavior, but I can't, I can't command that even and sometimes people are like, oh, well then just refer to a boss who can make them change. I was like, I've never I've never known a boss who could actually force someone to change, certainly, they can wield, you know, incentives, or even you know, they can punishments over them. But oftentimes that that doesn't help either behavior changes too hard. And so we really only change when we want to. So that's one key thing. The other thing, if you and I are in this disagreement, and you can tell that I'm just focused on changing you, you are going to be more resistant to actually collaborating so and that that can be a real challenge. Because then you start picking up, I'm just basically intensifying the tension, rather than collaborating with you. If rather, if I show up and say, hey, you know what, this, this situation, this dynamic isn't working for both of us, here's what I'm going to do differently. Right, that opens the door for you to reflect. Now, granted, you might say, Great, that will help a lot. And that's it. But chances are by modeling the behavior, you want to see, you're going to get some reaction, some positive movement from them and in response, and that's, I mean, ultimately, again, it's all we control can control are our thoughts, our feelings, when we can't always control our feelings, but our thoughts or reactions, our behaviors, because that's, that's what we've got.

Greg Voisen
And I and I, I'll say this, because, you know, the show is about wellness and business and spirituality. There's a there's a Buddhist saying, and it's a Buddhist precept. And that's the attachment to the outcome. Right? So in other words, if you knew your mind, which is what Viktor Frankl said, you've already said, well, I'm attached to this certain outcome occurring. And sometimes it doesn't always work out the way you exactly expect it. And I think that's really great advice for anybody is like, there's more than one way to solve this problem. It isn't always like, the way you want to have this problem solved. Right, it can go in a different direction. And the problem can still get resolved, hard for people to fathom, because they believe they're in control. When you don't get attached, you have to let go. And if you don't let go, what you're done is you've attached yourself emotionally to this issue. So let's go to your second principle. And it says your perspective is just one perspective. That's what I was basically saying, Yeah, we often forget this, especially when our ego gets in the way, same thing, because your ego is that attachment speak with us about the power of forgetting to blame the other person.

Amy Gallo
Yeah. Now, I do want to say there are times when the other person is to blame, right? Like there are people Oh, sure, but abused things, right. So I don't want to, I don't want again, you shouldn't be naive about this. However, I do think you have to recognize in most tense interactions at work, you are, you know, you're only seeing your perspective, you're only seeing your view on the situation. And we know from lots of research, and in particular around this concept of naive realism, that we assume we know that what we think and what we feel and what how we see the situation is very clear. And if the other person disagrees with us, they're biased. They're misinformed. They're just plain wrong. And that just can't be true. Every time, right? Because if I believe I'm right, and you believe you're right, well, then what's true. So it's really a matter of understanding. There are many ways to see this situation. There's the way you see it. There's the way the other person sees it. There's way people who care about the resolution, see the way outs people outside see it. So I really encourage people to ask yourself, what might you be missing? How would someone else in a different position see this? How would the other person see this and I don't say that out of generosity. This isn't about giving the person the benefit of the doubt, although I do also think that can be helpful. This is about just trying to unhook yourself from the story. You're telling yourself about that situation?

Greg Voisen
Mm hmm. You know, we come into all of these situations with our own biases, but we don't really think about that. You know, it's like you over years of work, years of learning years of family life, things you've heard how you've integrated and put them into your life. The reality is there's biases, let's just face it. And those biases can get in the way of you doing exactly what we said which was, you know, in this case, looking at a different perspective, because you've got such a strong attachment to that. Your third principle is to be aware of your biases. Mm. There we go. Because if you're worried about affinity and confirmation bias, and how we can become more aware of these biases,

Amy Gallo
yeah. And affinity and confirmation bias are two of the biases I see play out most often in, you know, unhealthy or difficult relationships, you know, at work and confirmation bias is the idea that once you believe something, or once you have a hunch about something, you start seeing it through that lens. So if you behave passive aggressively once in a meeting, anytime you do anything, I'm, I'm using that passive aggressive lens, right? And I'm saying, oh, gosh, isn't Greg so passive aggressive and just, it becomes a reinforcing cycle? That's where the role of gossip plays to right is that we encourage got confirmation bias in one another when we start talking about that person and saying, well, isn't that person this right? Isn't, aren't they a pessimist, aren't they. And it can be really dangerous because you start seeing things that are actually aren't there. And so you just double down on your interpretation. And it further polarizes you. Affinity bias is the bias that we research has shown over and over, we tend to feel more affinity or, or more closeness with people who are like us, they share identity factors, they share a view on the world, maybe we went to the same school, or grew up in the same area, right? And we attach ourselves. And that means that when someone's does not like us, we might actually be interpreting their behavior as difficult, when it's not right when it's actually just different than what we might expect. And so to get to know your own biases, and we'll help how you're showing up in these relationships. And in these interactions, you know, there's lots of online tests, you can take about your implicit bias, there's a free test on Project implicits, which is a team of researchers who came up with that. And really get it helps you get aware of what biases you might be bringing. Similarly, you might try to ask for help. So if you are struggling with a difficult colleague, and you think bias might be playing a role, or maybe you don't think it is, but you should ask someone you really trust, who understands the situation to say, what role might my bias be playing here. And the last thing is a tip I picked up from Kristin Pressler, who's a global HR executive, and she uses something called the flip it to test it. So this helps you really get around that affinity bias. So you know, if someone's doing something you find challenging or pushes your buttons, ask yourself, if they were a different gender, if they were a different race, if they had a different background? Would I see that behavior in the same way? If they were more like me? How would I see that behavior? If they were more different than me? How would I see that behavior? And I think that, that helps you really test whether that that bias is at play, but you have to be honest with yourself in the answers to really use that.

Greg Voisen
It's so important, what you're saying, you know, I'm reflecting back on so many of these interviews almost 1000 now, and I remember, Byron, Katie, and many of my listeners can relate to this. And, you know, she used to ask, she put two people on the stage. And if there was, it was a conflict, you know, there was some conflict, they were talking about their life. And then she'd asked two very simple questions. The first one was, Is it true? And the second one is, is it really true? Right. And when you think about the simplicity of what she was doing, she was getting you to break down and think about how you've created your biases already. Right? In other words, oh, you know, I can't get along in this marriage. I can't do this. I can't do that. Is that really true? Yeah. You know, and is it really true, and it resolves so many people's issues? Right. And, and I think that holds true for, for us as individuals, I think, we've talked about MSU, you live in a world of making stuff up, and then you begin to believe what you make up, and then you begin to live out what you made up? Right? Because you made it up. But that doesn't mean it's true. It just means you made it up. Right, right.

Amy Gallo
And you're not you're pointing out something that I think is really important in all of us and dealing with difficult relationships, which is that are challenges in relationships, which is that our brains don't always work with us when we're trying right to make the MSU is a natural occurrence in our brain. And we have to fight against it in order to resolve these conflicts. I think a lot of us think that instinctively we should know how to actually handle people who push our buttons or challenges in our relationships. And we don't in fact, we have to overcome some of the natural workings of our brain in order to be more present in order to be more you know more Are you focused and collaborative in those resolutions?

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, I have a bumper sticker here someplace and I can't find it right this minute. But I do remember this from my spiritual psychology class. You don't have to believe everything you think. Yes, that's right. And I always thought it was just so appropriate, you know, to, to really take the essence of that and go, wow, that's a profound statement, because we're thinking 6000 thoughts a day? And then we're turning those thoughts into, potentially a belief, but the reality is, is based on what, right, so you know, you speak that shaming a person we cannot get along with is not work. Right. And you quote Bob Sutton, the author of the no Asshole Rule, which sums up why this does not work. Calling people in asshole is one of the most reliable ways to turn someone into an asshole or make that make them hate you. Why is shame such a bad way to deal with an asshole? And, you know, obviously, you quoted Brene Brown on this subject, too, in this chapter, being more vulnerable, but I'd love to, I get what this guy is saying. But there's times where you're tied your motion up, and you just say they're an asshole.

Amy Gallo
Yeah. Yeah. And it feels good, right? Because it feels good to be like, they're a jerk. I'm done. Like, and yet. It's, it's just never that simple. Plus, you know, I would encourage anyone listening to think about a time you felt shame, right? You felt, you know, as Brene, you know, defines it as, like the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging. Did you feel that in that moment and think, oh, wow, okay, I'm going to change. No, no, you felt shame. You felt deep despair, probably grief, embarrassment, right, though it's not, it's just not an emotion that encourages action. It encourages wallowing so if you call someone an asshole, they're either going to retaliate, right, they're going to argue with you, or they're gonna shut down. But doing something different, like labeling the specific behavior that's bothering you why it's having an impact on you, you know, that there's different right that that gives someone something to work with, as opposed to shaming them into thinking that, you know, shaming them and making them feel worthless, worthless, people don't rise to the occasion, right, they actually fall to your worst interpretation of them. Right. And so that I just can't I, you know, Bernays work has been so influential in this book, and in all my writing, and Bob Sutton, too, because it's, it's just not, you know, as Brene says, it’s shame is more likely to be a source of destructive, hurtful behavior than a solution or care. And I think that's just sort of the simplest way to explain it.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. And I think in chapter two, you mentioned guilt, you know, it's, it is there is this element of, you know, you feel guilty when you're ashamed. And you have no basis for it, because it's only someone else who shamed you, that makes you feel these insecure feelings about yourself, which then leads to a long string of psychological issues that you start to deal with associated with this, especially if it's recurring, right. It's like, you know, this is how frequently women will say, though, I can never leave the marriage, but they stay in this marriage where it's abusive, because they've been shamed so much, right. And so think about it, it's really a quite a dilemma. To try and work your way out of it. Well, I really love the guy like how can you love this guy me now? Did you get this perception that this is the way that it's going to be? You know, and so I look at vulnerability, what Brene talks about is really very, very important. But it's got to be a two way street. Yeah. In other words, that's got to be used both directions and vulnerability, both people have to be willing to be vulnerable.

Amy Gallo
Yes. And you can't, you can't guarantee that the other person is going to do that. So the question is, is it safe for you? And I, you know, I go back, I think about the story you told at the beginning of the broker, like, was it would it have been safe for him to be vulnerable? Probably not like he might have made the right decision to leave. But then how does he recover from that? How does it recover? You know, we published an article on Harvard Business Route review recently had to recover from a toxic workplace. And the reality is those they have a real impact. And, you know, I wouldn't say it's the same impact as Viktor Frankl experienced, of course. But it's, it's the there is emotional damage that we have to recognize that these relationships or these interactions or these work cultures have on us. And we have to make sure we prioritize our own wellbeing in order to recover from them, so that we can go into the next workplace or the next interaction or even the next dealing with the difficult person in a more resilient way. Now, I also want to be clear, and, you know, there's there are people who are causing that damage, I do believe the systems and the leaders in those systems need to address that they should not tolerate it, they certainly should not reward it. You know, there is a role to play. And at the same time, you also need to watch out for yourself and make sure you're

Greg Voisen
taking notes. And it's important to for those who are listening, and I think they let them know, it's you know, like, what's the consciousness of the organization? But you know, it's from the top down? It is this allowing to be, are we continuing to allow this to occur? Because then what happens is the morale in an organization and the productivity and all the other things associated with it just diminish, right as a result of this. So it's very, it when a corporation says what is our wellness, and what is our human capital, and you know, the investment that we've made in it, they really care about making these things better. And you know, your book is filled with great advice and support for individuals dealing with conflict at work. What are three things that you want to have the listeners, remember regarding dealing with conflict today, or dealing with difficult people, whatever it may be, and if they could apply it? In other words, something maybe there's a takeaway, you can use this, like, go to work tomorrow and apply this?

Amy Gallo
Sure. Sure. Well, one thing one is sort of a mindset change, and then talk with some more practical things. But number one is, I would say, just remember, and I've tried to pay attention to this in the book is that we've all done these things before. I mean, who among us haven't hasn't been the pessimist in the room, or hasn't been passive aggressive at times, or maybe even, you know, playing pa office politics in a way that benefited you? And maybe, you know, wasn't beneficial for someone else, we've all done these things. So keep that in mind when you're dealing with someone that actually there's some really interesting research that shows that we are all capable under the right circumstances of being the difficult coworker, whether that's the abusive supervisor, right. It's, it's oftentimes about the circumstances we find ourselves in not the flawed personality of someone. So that's, that's one thing I really want people to take away. The second and I think this is very practical, as you as you said, the book is full of tactics, but it can be overwhelming of like, okay, well, what do I do? Or you can think, okay, great, I'm just going to do all this, and it's going to be fixed. But I really believe that this you have to treat this like an experiment. So find one or two tactics, you want to try out for a short period of time, try them out, take some notes, what worked, what didn't, in what circumstances didn't work, then try out a few more. And then try it out. You know, it you have to be a scientist, like you have to put on that scientist hat and think about, okay, this is an experiment, I'm going to try out and see how it how it goes. And then the last thing I would say, you know, your mental health and your wellbeing, you know, think about your broker friend, right? It is incredibly important to take care of that. And so really, also make sure you're emotionally disengaging from the situation when you need to, and that might be leaving your job. But hopefully, that's really just about putting distance between you and the other person. If there's someone who's really abusive over email, can you make sure you don't have email exchanges with them? You talk on the phone? If you know, just find different ways, or can you make sure, okay, before you interact with them, do something you really enjoy. look at pictures of your kids on your phone, or your last vacation, right or listen to, after you're done with them go for a long walk, something that just helps to clear your mind and remind yourself this interaction is not making this is not your entire experience at work. And this is not your entire experience of you and other people. Remind yourself of the good connections that you have

Greg Voisen
of kind of the shifting sands that can occur. Things can change right now. It's not permanent. We frequently look at it as permanent but it isn't because people can change their mindset by If you can change your mindset, and these issues can become resolved, we have been speaking with Amy Gallo the book is getting along how to work with anyone even difficult people. You can find out more about Amy at Amy E. Gallo, g-a-l-l-o.com. That's our website. We'll put a link to that in our blog as well. For all those people who are working inside companies, I don't think you could have a better book to get, especially if you're in a management position, and you want to teach some of the people in the organization how to use these tactics and identify the people and the archetypes. This is really a good way to start. You should go to Amy's website too, because then you can get more information about her in the book and what she's doing. Amy, it's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth, spending a few minutes with our listeners discussing your new book, and I wish you all the best and thanks for being on the show.

Amy Gallo
Thanks for having me. This has been a really wonderful conversation. I've enjoyed it.

Greg Voisen
Thanks so much.

Amy Gallo
Thank you.