Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth! My listeners don't need to know anything about me, but they do need to know a little bit about you. Lindsey Gordon is joining us from Las Vegas today. Good morning to you.

Lindsay Gordon
Good morning!

Greg Voisen
Good to see you. And I'm glad that we connected. And we're going to be speaking about her new book, there it is, you can see it behind the screen on her little mantle there to Right For YOU: Structure your Thinking, Make a decision and Move Forward with Your Career (and life). Great book for anybody who's contemplating making a career change, and is having a tough time. And I think particularly she says this is when she says for people who are critical thinkers, probably I think it does fit that audience really well. I am going to be doing a podcast and I'll put a plug in right now with Dave and Helen Edwards about making better decisions. And they came from the programming world as well, the software industry, and that's what Lindsey came from. So I'm going to let him know a little bit about you. She's an award winning career coach and on a mission to help people stop doing what they think is right in their career and start doing what's right for them. Through her work, she assists leaders and making clear and confident decisions so they can move forward in their career and their lives with purpose. Lindsay loves it banking, banking, baking, okay, I didn't know that. I was like that got caught me loves baking, complicated pastries, barbershop singing and applying her engineering brain to help people decide, and you can learn more about her at a life of options.com. There, you also can download a free chapter of the book that she's got available for you can learn about her coaching services as well. We're gonna put a link to Amazon to get the book as well. So Lindsay, it's kind of fascinating. I don't know, I'm into those baking shows.

Lindsay Gordon
Maybe it's the season, it's holiday wars, those kinds of things where these people are making elaborate cakes and all kinds of things.

Greg Voisen
But boy, that takes a lot of engineering.

Lindsay Gordon
That's exactly I think that's why I love baking, because it's so precise. And it's so fiddly, and you have to get it exactly right. So to me, baking is just engineering like food. That's why I love it.

Greg Voisen
It is definitely engineering because you have to draw out what you're going to do. And then you figure out how you're gonna put it together with a team, right, and then they only give you six hours to do it in or four hours or whatever. So now you're rushed. So pretty cool. I can see the similarities there, and what's going on with bakery baking, and so on. But you used to work at Google and a coworker, and I presume your manager wrote in the foreword to your book, stating that you went from a nervous seeker to a confident guide. Tell the listeners a little bit about your path. And how you became passionate about helping people Friant find the right career. And why wasn't Google the right career?

Lindsay Gordon
Yeah, so I have been somebody who has a lot of interests, right. So my baking, my engineering, my career coaching, my singing. And so I think I've always been searching for, where do I actually fit in. And I am on my third career so far. And like every good career transition, I've fallen into all of them. So I started in engineering, and then fell into technical support, then fell into career coaching. And while I was at Google, I kept having this feedback that, number one, you're not the most technical person. So I do have an engineering degree, but I wasn't, you know, top of the technical rank on the team. And number two, I cared so much about the people and the process and the culture. And so they never quite knew where to fit me in. And, you know, I have a lot of gratitude for Google. I met fantastic people. I had fantastic opportunities, but it just never felt like the right thing for me, because I didn't know where I fit. But when you tell people you're unhappy at Google, they look at you and say, But Google's the number one place in the world to work, right and so There was never one of one of many. Yeah, so I was missing this conversation of, is it right for you? Right? And I didn't have any concept of maybe it's that I actually want different things. And Google's not the right place for me. Right. And then there's not any blame there. But it always felt like something is wrong with me because I can't figure out how to fit in. So once I started discovering that for myself, then I wanted to support other people who are in situations where they're asking themselves, why can't I be happy here, everybody else seems to be happy here on paper, this is a great job. But it might just be that it's not right for you. So that got me really fired up to help other people answer that question of what is actually right for you?

Greg Voisen
Well, you probably should have gotten a degree in psychology because you do a lot of that. To your last, yes, that is the space where people are contemplating and thinking, and you're helping people resolve problems, right? Engineering is one. And obviously psychology is another right? There's a lot of careers where you're solving problems. But in particular, when you're solving problems, where the human brain is involved, right, like, Okay, how do we think critically, how do we make this decision, and your book is about making decisions, you state that in your world, there's only one thing that matters to you as your career coach, and that's helping people find what they want? I think many people don't know what they want, they fall into it, you know, sometimes by accident, kind of hanging out for a while. And before they know it, they're there 30 years, right? You know, it isn't hanging out, because they get comfortable with the routine they get comfortable with what's there, doesn't mean they're passionate about it doesn't mean they're on fire about it. But that happens, how do you help people build the framework to navigate finding the career they want to want or building it, as I say, a solopreneur. Because so many people are coming out of these big companies and like you look, you know, you're sitting in the bedroom of your house or spare office, you know, conducting a business, which is not what you did, you know, most of your life you got off got in your car until COVID. And, you know, and you went to an office and you worked with a bunch of people talk about that, because, you know, doing this solo thing can be a bit lonely. I've been doing it for a long time. And there needs to be a community of support around it. So if you would talk about it and talk about how you help people get there.

Lindsay Gordon
Yeah, so I think it applies both in if you're in a job, or if you're doing your own thing. So the first thing I always like to have people do is to take a look at the pressures that they feel around their work. Because there's so much coming at us whether you're in a job, you know, like you should be climbing the ladder, you should be making more money, whatever it is, or in entrepreneurship land, you know, you have to be scaling, you should be making a certain amount, you have to run your business in this particular way. So I think the more we can acknowledge those messages that are coming to us, we can sort through okay, are any of these supporting me? Are they making me feel stressed? What do I actually choose? And a lot of that comes from values. And I love that you brought up the loneliness, of doing your own thing. Because when I started, I knew that if I did not create a community for myself, I would absolutely be lonely, because one of my big values is connection with other humans. And so for me, because I knew my value of connection, I as soon as I started my business, I started creating community for myself of reaching out to people of finding communities. So I think the more we know about ourselves, the more intentional that we can be with our choices again, whether that's in an office or doing things for yourself, to really figure out like how I want to have the career that really works

Greg Voisen
for me? Yeah, and knowing what your values are and your purpose in your mission, mission and vision has always kind of been the traditional path to kind of doing that. But I find sometimes that it's messy. You know, the whole process is messy, because we are human beings, and we make a decision and if we don't like it, we've changed and like you said you were extremely curious. You've been in three different careers and you're still quite young. And that's not unusual these days. But that whole process of Making a shift for a lot of people is messy. It's not like, Okay, I'm deciding today I'm going to go to work for XYZ. And this is the decision that I made because it hardly ever works that way. And if it did, that would be a perfect world. And it's not to say that if we could give everyone in this world a gift it would be to relieve the indecision about their career, and to completely remove the pain and waffling. I live under Line waffling that it creates for people. How do you take people from the indecision to making the decision that will change their lives, I find that this is a next commentary, and then I'll shut up. It's easier to make a decision about an inanimate kind of object and say, Okay, I'm going to shut down that app, because they've been taking $15 month, so I'm going to click the button. That kind of decision is pretty easy. It's just inaction, you just do it. But when it comes to our self, like, wow, a big thing, which is our career, it sometimes takes months, day and mean months and years to make the decision, because the pain has to be great enough. I remember, not that long ago, I had a social biologist on here. And I keep referring back to her because her comment was just phenomenal. And she wrote a book called on the verge. And another one, the watchman's rattle. And she said to me, she said, you know, when it comes to this, we can have all the analytics, all the data we want, we can process it into here, but the way that our brains work, and for 1000s of years as a species, we kind of wait to the last minute to make a decision. And she said, it's just the way we're kind of Hartwell. So when you're talking about global warming, we have all these statistics from all over the place. And yet, how come not much is being done or not enough is being done? And she said, that is mainly the reason we have shifted somewhat, she said, but we haven't shifted enough.

Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Gordon
I think that does happen in our careers. And what's interesting to me, because I have slightly a different kind of analogy of that. But I think it happens the same way. So I often tell people to try to get as close to the edge of the cliff as they can of like quitting their job. Before they start any what if scenarios, right? Usually were like, well, what if I applied to something? And then what if I get it? And then what if I have to make a decision, and you're like this is so far in the future, like none of these things are happening right now. So see if you can get yourself to that moment, right to that moment, where you have a new opportunity to that moment where you are choosing management or not management or to take that promotion. And if you are on the cusp of that decision, you are probably going to get way more sensations in your body as you like peer over the edge of the cliff of like, oh, I definitely don't want that thing. Or oh, I actually feel really excited about that. So it is kind of the leaving it to the last minute.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. Yeah, you know, I just finished how Ben co write a book called Life on the precipice. And you're saying let it get to the edge. And in the process, I got to interview 22 mountain climbers. And these are people that have been up Everest 117 times they've been, you know, this is what they do. And you know, it's interesting what many of them said, not all of them. But they said, if you're not living on the edge, you're not living life. So you know, you are asking people to push to the edge because your perspective changes when you're there. And I think like them every step they take, it's a life or death decision. But for us at work in careers, it's not luckily it's not. Luckily, it's not. You know, and this is what happens when it's not. You talk about good enough job. And that sometimes people will settle for less, and they'll take the promotion, with more money and more benefits over happiness. Hey, that happens all the time has happened. You know, what would you tell our listeners who have found themselves in the good enough job, but are fearful of leaving the job? Because of the pay and the benefits?

Lindsay Gordon
Yeah, I think this is so prevalent today. So many people come to me and say If I have followed the standard definitions of success, I have gotten the money, I have climbed the ladder, I have the awesome benefits. And I feel empty about that. And so I think it's so important to have this conversation around what actually works for you in this area. Because it's not as straightforward. As you know, money and benefits are not what you should be going after, it's all about the individual. Because for some people, money and benefits is going to be exactly what they need. And as long as you know, like, I am choosing this because I have to support my aging parents, or I am taking care of my family, I think there's a reality there that we should always think about. And you want to choose that with intention. So I had a client pretty early on who was a lawyer, and she was making great money. But she just wasn't using all of her, you know, excitement and passion and brain. And people around her were saying, you should really go get another job because you should be, you know, fully fulfilled by your work, and you should be more challenged than you are. And as soon as we went through the values exercise with her, she said, You know what, right now, stability and taking care of my family is my number one value. And so she was able to choose with incredible intention, with incredible confidence, I am going to stay in this good enough job, because it's fulfilling my number one value. So I think it's really powerful to know which of those is working for you. But if you are following that external definition of success, and the money, and the benefits, and the promotions is not working for you, then you are never going to feel fulfillment, if you keep following that I had some other another client who said, I just got promoted for work that I don't feel is aligned with my strengths, like he was doing a good job. But the more and more he got promoted, and the higher and higher pay he got, the worse he felt, because it was so far away from what he actually wanted to be doing. So it's interesting that like the promotion, the more money can actually feel like, excuse me a trap sometimes.

Greg Voisen
You know, you work in a world with people. And I remember this statement so aptly, you know, the Buddha said, there's suffering in the end to suffering. And you work in a world where it's a such a mental state. And I've asked some of the most successful people in the world, are you content? And many of them will say, No, they have master's degrees and doctorate degrees, they've written two or three or four or five books, they have three or four companies, and you say out of your content. And it's like no. And, you know, it's interesting, because the whole conundrum about change has to be changing, not just to change, but to change to meet a values, you know, formula, right? And I don't like using the word formula, but to me match our values with what it is that we're doing. And it is challenging at times, because those values while you would think they wouldn't change or someone's purpose wouldn't change. I think it's a moving target. I think purpose is redefined. I think values are redefined. You change in air, you change and age that all change. So let's talk about something that kind of mitigates this going for what we want, and you call it career pressure. You mentioned that there's one thing that you hate most about, and that is that you cannot win, not you but you mentioned in the book, you cannot win. Yeah, so winning. You know, in this Western culture, we have

basically,

Greg Voisen
brainwashed people about climbing a success ladder. That's like, yep, shear, he has to go here, here. Parents have always said get your degree because you got to go here, here, here, where you've got to be educated or whatever. And I get the sense now that there's kind of an eroding around it because people aren't listening to that as much as you state that pressure never goes away. What is the antidote for career pressure? Because that is the ultimate career pressure, man. have a dad said, Lindsay, get out of school, get a job. And you're gonna go get married, go have kids live the nine to five and whatever live in the suburbs right. Now that is just not for everybody, although it is for

Lindsay Gordon
some. Yeah, absolutely. And I always want people to remember that when they are getting that type of advice from friends or family, they are doing it because they want the best for you. So we don't need to make the friends or the family or the parents wrong. As you say, it's not right for everybody. And the pressure is just so sneaky, because either you're a Job Hopper, or you're a lifer, right, you can't win on that spectrum. Either you're too young and inexperienced, or you're too old and out of touch, you can't win on that spectrum. So I just don't want people to say like, there will be a moment where I don't have any job pressure, right. And I will finally just be able to listen to myself, I had a client who's 68. And his pressure was his friends and family were saying, you know, it's really just time for retirement, like, can't you just slow down, you don't need to work anymore, like enjoy life. And for him, he was like, that's not what I want. I have another phase in me, I am excited to contribute, I still feel incredibly energized about being in the workplace. So that's what I mean about the pressure never goes away, it just has a different message for you at different phases of your life. And so I for me, I think the best antidote to pressure is number one, being able to acknowledge it. So just being able to see, okay, the world is telling me that I should want this. But the more important part is the knowing what you want, getting to come back to those values, getting to come back to your particular strengths, and the contribution that you want to make. And I agree with you that it shifts over time. And I think if I could give a message to everyone, whether in a job doing their own thing, to give yourself grace to change your mind. So just because you're making a choice right now to do the particular thing that you're doing, doesn't mean that that's always going to be the right thing for you that you're always going to be locked in. So if we can have some grace, around shifting values around shifting vision, I think that would also make for a kinder experience with this career pressure.

Greg Voisen
So true. You know, you talked about that 68 year old guy, that's me. And that's why I did that session with Connie, a steel that we were talking about earlier. And you know, it's like, yeah, people are saying, Well, why don't you could just stop right now, I don't want to, that's not what I want to do. I'm not a person that goes out on the golf course, every day and or plays bridge or any of that kind of stuff. That's just not who I am. So I get that I get that, you know, careers have phases, life has phases, you need to understand those. And for my listeners, you know, what Lindsay does is help you look at that phase and help you put the pieces together so that you can you know, create the, the matrix that you want, right? So in your chapter on quit or don't quit, you state that you're tired of the negative connotation of risk adverse, and that you propose a rebrand. What's the rebrand? And how does this help a prospective client deal with all of their indecision and possible feel fear that they're dealing with? Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Gordon
So I call myself a career coach for analytically minded people, because of this engineering degree. And so I find that so many people who show up on my doorstep are risk averse in that kind of, you know, analysis, paralysis way wanting to make the really great decision. And they come to me and they're like, I'm so risk averse. You know, I wish I was more adventurous. I wish I could just, you know, make a big leap and not worry about it. And to me, I'm like, what? Why would we want to make huge leaps? Without knowing if this is the right thing for you? Why would we want to make changes that are potentially going to put your financial stability at risk? I'm like, this is this is not what we want. So for me, I like to honor people's risk averseness because I think it actually points to values. So when somebody says, you know, well, I really don't want to make a move because I have great pay and benefits here. Okay, let's actually learn more about that right? What is important to you about those paying benefits? Is it that you're supporting your family? Is it that stability is your number one value? So I think if we can kind of bring the risk averseness with us, and really learn from that of what is it pointing to as far as values, then number one, we don't have to beat ourselves up. So we're taking away that. And then too, I think it gives us more of a kind of NorthStar to be designing what we intentionally want.

Greg Voisen
You know, look, the whole risk averse thing and a job. It's very similar to being risk tolerant with your finances. Yeah, yeah. So you know, people say, Well, you know, I've got $100, I want to invest it. But now I want to put 30% at risk, right? 70%? It's, it's kind of easier with money, because you can delegate percentages. Yeah, you can say, Okay, I'm gonna just take this percentage and put it out here more at risk. Yeah. And so that that is a way to look at this risk, avert averseness. And part two of your book is really the like, that's where people get to dig in, make a decision, you speak about the framework from Freedom designed to help the readers make better decisions. Can you speak with us about the framework and how it helps individuals make good decisions? And there's basically four questions. What do you value? What dimension of work are most important for your fulfillment? What strengths do you want to continue to contribute? And what conditions allow you to thrive? So that's the environment?

Lindsay Gordon
Yes. So this is where my engineering brain gets so excited, because it's like, alright, it's framework time. And basically, what I help clients do is build this very tailored framework that serves as a cheat sheet. So if you have this one page, have all of these attributes, and I'll go into a little bit more depth in just a moment. But if you have this page with all of these attributes, you can then use it as a cheat sheet or compare it to any opportunity that comes your way. So if you are asking yourself, Do I want a management? Do I want to go on the on the management track? If you're asking yourself, do I want this promotion? If you're asking yourself, do I want to quit this job? Or do I want to go out and start my own business? You can check against these four attributes. Okay? How does this opportunity stack up against my values? How does this opportunity stack up against my strengths? And you can make a very structured decision and acknowledge any tradeoffs. So okay, I see this opportunity does hit most of my values, I think this one won't be honored. But I am intentionally choosing that knowing that trade off. So that's kind of how we use this framework is an awesome cheat sheet. So the four aspects, number one is values. And the way that I do values is kind of a data driven approach to how have you lived your life so far? So I take you through an exercise of what are the decisions that you've made in your life so far? And what are the motivations behind each of those, so we can discover your values from those actions throughout your life? Then we move into understanding your fulfillment, because somebody can ask you like, you know, how do you like work? And that's just a big overwhelming question. We don't know how to define it. So here, we define it in eight different categories, from career development, to results to relationships. So really looking at what are the most important axes for you, then we look at strengths. And really, what do you want to bring what's unique about you, what gives you energy when you work on how do we align work with that? And then finally, it is about the environment? And how do you create the conditions for you to thrive. And in this section, you get to go through a really cathartic exercise of looking back at all of your past jobs and thinking through what was out of alignment about that environment and then we're able to flip it and make you a list of this is what I know I need in order to thrive. So then put that all together and make these decisions with confidence knowing what's right for you.

Greg Voisen
Well, and I think it's important for me to mention and I don't think I've done this yet, but you know, Marcus Buckingham and strength coaching your certified strength coach, that kind of sounded like, right out of the manual from strength coaching. So that's, that's good. And I think that people need to know that because it's and like, a lot of this is lenses, but a lot of this is stuff that she's kind of picked up through the strength coaching thing with Gallup. You know, and I've had, I've never had Marcus on the show, but I've had Tom Rath. Oh, miracle. Yeah, who's been on the show many times actually just sent me an email yesterday. So you know, all of the development work that you did, and everything you just spoke of is so important for people to work on. And you help guide them through it, right. So that the book is filled with great practices, great advice, guidance on helping someone make a career transition. What three things today? Who forever’s listening? Would you like to emphasize and that can be used immediately to help someone going through a career evaluation process? Like just what you just said, it's like, Okay, is there a cheat sheet at your website that they could download, we know, they can go there and get one chapter of the book. And you can leave information you can reach out to Lindsay, she does one on one coaching. So, you know, we will put the link to the website. But what are the three things Lindsey, you'd want to leave our listeners with?

Lindsay Gordon
Number one, I think getting clear on the pressure is really important. So if you can even just take a moment and write down what are the voices in your head telling you that you should want to do about your career. And even if we can acknowledge those that will hopefully help you see what's living rent free in your head and not actually supporting your choices. So write down that list of the pressures that are running around. Number two, I think get clear about whether a good enough job is right for you. And this concept comes from the book refuse to choose written by Barbara Sher, so you can look up her definition of that good enough job. It's important to know, are you somebody where your passion and purpose and meaning and drive is going to show up at work? If so, awesome. Let's make choices in line with that. Or are you someone where your passion and meaning and purpose and drive is going to come outside of work? And if so, awesome, let's go that direction, because that split can be a very powerful distinction for somebody to make and can create a lot of relief. So that's my number two. And then three, is, as you learn these things, start to have conversations with people. So the more that you know about what you want, the more you can communicate that to others. So let's say you get clear about wanting your passionate purpose and meaning to come from work. How can you have a conversation with your manager that conveys that and that talks a little bit about more what you want to do at work, so that you can get into those situations. So learn for yourself, and then start to have conversations to create more opportunities to do what's right for you.

Greg Voisen
And I think, really, Lindsay, what you do is probably more than anything, you help people make comfortable decisions. I think sometimes we make decisions and uncomfortable spots. And sometimes they're the wrong decisions because we haven't taken a breath. First, we react instead of Act. No, it's a reaction. And it's so important to evaluate what's behind the decision, so that you feel good about the decision. You know, I don't remember the woman's name, but I'm gonna probably go back and look for the podcast. She taught at Harvard. And she wrote a book and she was blind. And she said, you know, they did this test. And she was involved with all these studies, about decisions you make at the grocery store, because there's five kinds of peanut butter or there's a kinds of this or whatever. And what she said that I mean, I kind of get to the bottom line is that grocery stores sold more product when they had less decision for people to make. Yeah, so in other words, if there was three versus five peanut butters, even though maybe you wanted to carry all those, I know this kind of sounds like a convoluted like story, but no, there's a purpose to what I'm saying. You know, look at if you have all these options, and yours is a life of options. What we find is you'll be able to make a decision better, faster, quicker. If you Have less options to look at. Yep. Right. So, in She said her being blind, going into a grocery store, it was really quite an interesting kind of study. It was like, Well, how many she would ask somebody? How many are there like seven? And then she got into this well, why are there so many to choose from there only needs to be to peanut butters.

Greg Voisen
And how people make decisions. So she built her life around figuring out how people making decisions as a blind not just as a blind person, but just how we make decisions, right? Yeah, think about it is it's wild, you know, do you want almond butter? Or do you want Jiffy with creamy? Or do you want Jeffie with the peanuts? Or that one? And your career decision is kind of the same thing. Really. All I'm saying here is distill it down. There might be seven options. But really, it's going to be best if you kind of and what they found out is they found it's best if there's three.

Lindsay Gordon
Interesting, interesting three. Yeah,

Greg Voisen
after all these studies, they said they make people make decisions so much quicker when there's three. So like, if you go out to buy a car, and you go, Oh, my gosh, this one, there's this one. There's no, there's only three. Really? How did you distill it down to three? Right? So yeah, and I will hook you up with her. Awesome, we really like her a

Lindsay Gordon
lot. I would be fantastic. Well, I feel like people come to me, and they're like, I can do absolutely anything. You know, everything sounds great. And I'm like, actually, that's not true. Right? That's the experience that you have. The one of the analogies that I like to use sometimes it's like, if you go to a buffet, and you're like, oh my gosh, there's so much food, like I could eat absolutely anything. And then you're like, wait a minute, no, like, I am gluten free. I hate mushrooms. And you know, I have an aversion my stomach doesn't like, you know, tomatoes, and then you're like, oh, okay, so I can say no to that. No to that note of that note of that note of that. And now I just have you know, the smaller number of options. So that's hopefully what my framework is up to is like saying no to the things that are not a good fit, because it will make it easier in the end to make those choices that actually feel good. So like, alright, narrowed down to three,

Greg Voisen
down to three. And if you are a food critic like, I like this guy feeding Phil Rosenthal, oh, yeah, he's goofy. I don't know how he eats all her different varieties. I would have such an upset stomach, I wouldn't. There's no. But again, about your life of options. Go get this book, we'll put a link up to Amazon life of options.com Go there. You can learn more. There's a resources. There's about the book, work with me figure out how you can work with Lindsey. If you're in that position right now and you're listening. Definitely reach out to Lindsey, Lindsey. Namaste to you. Thanks for being on Inside Personal Growth.

Lindsay Gordon
And thank you so much.

Greg Voisen
Take care.