Greg Voisen
Well, as I say to all my guests, Jackie, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. For many of you have supported this show for over 15 years listening to my podcast, we have a great guest joining us. And her name is Jackie Jenkins, Scott. And the book we're gonna be talking about is the seven secrets of responsive leadership. Jackie, good day to you. You're joining us from what city?

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
I am joining you from Boston, Massachusetts, beautiful. Massachusetts,

Greg Voisen
I hope you're having a lovely day there like we are in car.

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
Good. It's been warm here. But today, we had a little rain this morning. But it's lovely summer in New England, you can't be there

Greg Voisen
now cools you down event? Well, I'm gonna let our listeners know a bit about you. And all of you who want to go to her website, she has a beautiful website, we were just talking about that. It's j-j-s-advising. So it's j-j-s-advising dot org. We'll put a link in the blog there you can learn about Jackie, the team, the services that she offers. So we're gonna direct you to go to that website. We'll all have a link for that as well. And so let me tell him about you. Jackie Jenkins, Scott is a nationally recognized leader with more than three decades of experience in senior and executive leadership positions in public health, higher education, corporate and nonprofit boards. She is widely recognized as a transformational leader, helping individuals and institutions achieve high performance and strategic results. And as I said, we gave you the link to her website, please go there. Also, we'll have a link to the book so that you can get it on Amazon. This is both in paperback version and Kindle version. Right. So Jackie, let's just dig right in. Because leadership is a big thing today. Not only just in the United States, but I'm looking at globally. And the challenges that that we're having with finding good leaders, right. And when I say good leaders, I mean, even moral leaders. This is this is a challenge. And in your introduction, your book, you state that the responsive leaders are focused on the people, that humanity in quote, in the opportunity, and I know what you mean by opportunity amount, let you explain opportunity to the listeners, can you define responsive leadership and the characteristics of a person we know when I had a gentleman on here from Atlanta, and he talked about moral leadership? And actually he was involved with one of the colleges you were involved with as well. And I'm just curious, because it's just like, where are the moral leaders?

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
Well, you know, Greg, leadership is that there have been hundreds and hundreds and 1000s of articles books written on leadership. And it is, it is a topic that there is no single answer that you can say this is leadership. Leadership has many, many components. But for me, when I wrote my book, I wanted to write a book about what I called responsive leadership. And that may be there all kinds of ways that one can lead, there's hierarchical leadership, there's authoritarian, there's all kinds of ways to think about how one leads for me, I have in my career, and you see all this gray hair here. For many, many decades, you and I both have that. I try to lead as a responsive leader. And what do I mean by responsive leadership, I mean that your core way of making decisions based on based is based on the humanity of the organization. No organization, whether for profit, nonprofit, can be successful without its people. People is what drives an organization. And so when I thought about how I have the successes and the challenges that I've had, over my decades of leadership, I try to lead as a responsive leader. And what I mean by that is that a responsive leader is driven by the humanity of his or her or the organization. And so we make our decisions based on that. Well, what do I mean? Let me give you a quick example. My cousin worked this one When organizations were companies were changing. I had a cousin who worked in a very large media company in Los Angeles. And that company decided to outsource one of its divisions. And she had worked there for 10 years. And the decision it was, it may have been a good business decision. For whatever reason, they'd had this division in their company for decades, but they decided to outsource it to another, another country. My cousin worked there for 10 years. They got two weeks notice. And then they were told, if you wanted to get your final pay, you had to train the people from the country that this part of the business was being outsourced to. So my cousin, one of these people, she would help turn off the lights. So, Greg, when you think about that, are there any other ways not saying we changed the decision? But are there other ways we could have treated the people?

Greg Voisen
So that certainly, I mean, there's lots of better ways you could have treated the

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
responsive, responsive leadership and my way of thinking about it may have taken a different approach to that. You could have said to our people, first of all, is there any way we can give them more than two weeks notice? Second of all, are there some other things we could do severance pay, we incentivize them to train the other people, we respect the contribution they have made to this organization. And so can you imagine training somebody to do your job when you've had two weeks notice? And you've been told, the only way you're gonna get paid is to train these people? Do you think? How do you think that training went?

Greg Voisen
Not very well.

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
That's an example of, you know, a real example in your audience makes and think of some ways in their own life in their workforce, where something like that has happened. So we as leaders have choices, how we treat our people. And my thought about responsive leadership is that we start with how we treat our people.

Greg Voisen
Well, that's a very example of your cousin is, is a very good example. And if we wanted to list what a responsive leader would do, you know, they would have looked at severance, they would have given people longer time, they may have given them an opportunity to move someplace else in the company, you know, in other words, hey, not here, but a different division. There's a lot of things you could do. I mean, if they set their mind on getting cheaper labor overseas, and that's the way that we're going to be, then you can understand that, not that it was the right decision, but it was a decision somebody made. You know, sometimes the bean counters and the HR department and the upper management, they don't all agree on that stuff.

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, Greg, what I think about and I write in my book, right at the very beginning, I called them the big four. And when you when we started talking about leadership, for me, a responsive leader, really, to the best of his or her or their ability, they try to live their leadership roles in using these four what I call, you know, basic core values or core principles of core ways of, of operating. And often when I teach a class, I put these four up on the board, and we talk about him. And you could find many attributes. But here are the four that I think pretty much we can put, put everything under one of these four things. And the first for me, a responsive leader is has to be curious. Curious about your people. You're curious about the world around you. You're curious about your business model, you're always you're asking questions, you want to learn. You want to understand what drives your people, what drives your organization. So this issue of curiosity, when people talk about innovation, and where are the innovative companies, Curiosity is a driver of innovation. So if you're curious, you're going to want to know how can we do this better? Are there ways we can think about this or, or how's your family Greg? How are you doing? So this issue of curiosity is first for me.

Greg Voisen
Most you know of all the person no growth, authors of interview, there's a series of sequence of events that gets one to their purpose. And actually being curious is one of the first steps in the process of someone then taking, doing their purpose, and then taking goals and having actions and being able to get there. But curiosity is a big one.

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
Curiosity. The second one that I think is a huge driver for responsive leader is humility. Because if we have humility, a humility app actually helps drive curiosity too. Because, you know, very often the leader is supposed to have all the answers when we don't have all the answers. Well, humility,

Greg Voisen
also, it subsides, the ego. So, you know, we've seen egoistic leaders look, we had a past president that was that way. So the reality is yes, that I can see that humility and curiosity are just awesome. link together.

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
And humility says, you know what, Greg loads a lot more about this than me. And I'm going to respect Greg, and I'm going to use Greg, I'm going to be like a sponge, because he has something that can help our company help our organization be better and be stronger. So that humility allows us to, you know, open ourselves up for learning for growth, for advancing our organization. And, and actually, you know, someone asked me the other day about vulnerability as a leader. And humility allows you to be vulnerable. And, and it, it allows you to show those around you those in your organization that I can be vulnerable to as the leader, I don't have it all. I don't have all the answers. And guess what, I don't want to have all the answers, right.

Greg Voisen
That's why you're leading a team of people or you're leading I was, I always say to that, you know, that. Accountability leads to autonomy. People say, oh, I want my autonomy. And I said, well, if you're accountable, then people aren't gonna watch over your shoulder, you're gonna have plenty of autonomy. That's right. There's always a correlating word between each of these, what are your other to

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
empathy? Okay, the ability to want to put yourself in someone else's shoes, the ability to understand and Empathy helps. So that example of my cousin that I gave you, if we were thinking about how I want to be treated, if I'm given two weeks notice on my job, so the ability for a leader to show and have empathy is a driver for curiosity, humility, treating people well, this person who talked with you about moral, a moral code of leadership, Empathy helps to drive morality, in my opinion, as I think about these things. And then the last one is resilience. That ability to bounce back, to keep going to see something through, even though it isn't going nothing goes exactly the way we think it's going to go. Well, rarely.

Greg Voisen
We get out a lot of things that but with resiliency, if you also have nonattachment to the outcome. Now, I don't mean that not to have goals. But the outcome doesn't always happen exactly the way you think it's going to happen or the way you planned it was going to happen. So that's also flexibility. Right? And I think those are all good key characteristics. Now. You mentioned in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and I actually worked with a gentleman that worked with Maslow, which was, oh, well, you can tell me something here. Well, maybe not. Other than that. The Maslow offered him to use this in his sales trainings, right. So it was Wilson learning from Minnesota, Larry Wilson, and he went down to go see actually, Abraham Maslow teaching. And he said, I'd like to use your concept. And I know, the hierarchy of needs is known by almost probably everybody listening to me. And the fact is at the top of the hierarchy is something called self-actualization. And I think, again, once you pass the food and shelter needs and the safety needs and all the other needs and you start to go up, you're there. And that at the peak of the pyramid, the focus is on the need to solve problems, and live a life infused with morality and creativity. Who Are some of the leaders today that exemplify this peak leadership? In your estimation? Because I'm looking, I'm not, I'm not always finding but I'm, I'm always looking, you know, Greg,

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
that's, I am sure it when you're talking about, you know, World, world renowned people, while I'm

Greg Voisen
saying public leaders lately has been pretty tough to find,

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
including the one I when I think about someone who exhibits these talents, these skills, these values was John Lewis. Yeah. And John Lewis,

Greg Voisen
oh, yeah, he was,

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
I cannot think of anyone who had who exhibited more moral courageous leadership recently that we can remember and, and who lived a life of humility, a life of passion, a life of commitment, a life of empathy. And Lord knows he showed us resilience, even in the darkest days, he kept saying, We can do this, we're going to do this weekend bounce back, when I thought about people that our audience might remember that that is one person, that I think it would be hard to not agree that he was a responsive leader. And then he was a moral leader, and that he exhibited these, as I call them, the big four attributes of leadership.

Greg Voisen
I would, I would agree with you of current time, who he just passed away, not that long away. But you know, when you look at him as a public figure, he was he, well, he would voice his opinion. But you know, I must look at him like, Mother Teresa, you know, she said, if you can't stand for something, why are you going to stand against it? Right? That was one of her famous statements, right? Yeah, absolutely. And you look at Gandhi, and you look at, you know, Desmond Tutu, and you look at all of these people, when you really look at the core, it's really morality. And I mean, it is the strongest thing that I think a leader could have would be that morality. And for some reason, I don't know the ego takes over when people and it's tested money and power. It's always a testimony in power and leadership, because they have the power and they have the money. You know, and you said, the first secret in your book of these seven secrets is take advantage of opportunity. Can you speak about this, and the four big characteristic responses that responsive leaders have? And also speak about the Howard Schultz Starbucks story, and what drove him to build the kind of organization that he's continued to build? I did step down as the CEO. Yes. Now back in again, he's back. Oh, yeah, he came back, because things weren't going the way that, you know, he wanted. So he is back in as the CEO,

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
I didn't know that. When did he step back in?

Greg Voisen
About two months ago? Okay. Okay. What do you know, all kinds of changes. Interesting.

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
Wow, that's, that's a wrap. I've learned something new today. That's so you know, this business of opportunity is, is very, very interesting to me. And I put it as the first of the seven secrets. Because very often, we find ourselves in situations and it is it's hard to step out, and to take a chance on something. So I wanted to encourage my readers to not see opportunity from only the risk side of, you know, how will this hurt the organization? Or how will this hold the organization back? Or how will this hurt my leadership or hurt my growth or, but if you think about it, from the, from the other side of it, why me at this time? What are the circumstances that's allowing my company, my organization, to be able to be in a position to take a risk to try this? What can we what will this experience do to advance the organization? Advance the people in the organization advance our company, give our company an opportunity to grow and what would hold us back if we didn't take this risk? So how could it hurt us if we didn't take this risk? But as the leader, we have an opportunity to say, this has come before me at this time? What contribution can I make, to advancing my company advancing my organization? And, and? And do I have the courage to take the risk that this opportunity will bring? Now, opportunities require curiosity, it requires an openness to thinking about this situation, it requires a willingness to learn, and to grow. It requires some humility, because any opportunity may also backfire on us.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, look, every opportunity carries with it some degree of risk, I think a good leader brings their team around them and evaluates the risk factors associated with that opportunity. And then, as they say, has to pull the trigger or not right, depending, but like you said, the opportunity with all of these opportunities as a leader, there is some varying degree of risk, the less the risk, the easier to make the decision, the harder the risk, the harder to make the decision. But I think that's an important that you pointed out. And I think the Schultz is story that that most people may be No, maybe they don't. He came from humble beginnings. It's in the housing projects. And what he always wanted to do is he just wanted to give people that work for him a better life meaning, so all the medical insurance benefits, all the things that he provides his employees, the 401 K's that the time off of work, the way that he designed, it was a result of a tragedy in his own family with his mother and father, right. And I've, you know, I'm not a big steadier of him. But I certainly recognize no higher salaries, more benefits, time off education, I'll pay for your education if you're, you know, somebody serving coffee for me, right. I think those kinds of things like you just said about your was it your sister-in-law? The one that got my cousin? Yeah, see that that would not happen at Starbucks, because that is not the culture. That's not what they have inside that company.

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
What I liked about Schultz is the, you know, the incident at his company, and he took a that what was could have been a nightmare disaster. In terms of what happened in Philadelphia, I believe it was Philadelphia with Yeah, with the black man. And he calls his entire company. And for one day, for every the same day, across the world, and every train, to train training. Now that was an that was a both a great opportunity. And it really served, it ended up taking that risk. To do that. To stand take a moral position. You've been talking about morality, Greg, this was this was a moral position. He took this A lot happened.

Greg Voisen
The other thing that he did there that he recently did that a lot of companies did, but I think actually, Starbucks was one of the first, which was to close all the stores in Russia. So because of the this Ukrainian war, and what Putin had done, many corporations, as you know, McDonald's, a lot of them have said, no, they're not going to do it. But Starbucks, I think, I can't say this for a fact. But we know, they literally closed every location. So you know, you do that and you like you think about what's the impact of the corporation with the 1000s of stores that they had in Russia, to do that to say, hey, you can't act like this and allow us to still be here. Right? So that is a perfect example of somebody saying, hey, look, well, we're willing to lose millions of dollars because this isn't right. That is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
Getting back to your question earlier. We were asking about moral leaders. Yeah. Yeah. You just You just gave us an example of a living morally, that's

Greg Voisen
a perfect example of a living moral leader. Now, you know, you speak about the steps to identify a good opportunity. What are those steps and what questions might a responsive leader asked to evaluate a good opportunity because we're just talking about the risks? Now they need to really ask some questions about the opportunity. Because we do know there are some risks with it. And you had four or five questions in the book that I think would be good for our listeners to hear, you know, you're there, you're trying to make a judgement, you don't know which way to go.

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
And as the leader, you know, one of the questions is about me as a leader, with this opportunity, why me? Why now? Can I actually execute? Can I deliver? What will it take for me to execute? What will it take for me to deliver? How much am I going to advance our organization? How much am I putting us at risk, and then we have to analyze the benefits of it. So I gave an example in the book of, you know, when I went to an organization that literally was in bankruptcy, there's another long, long story to tell you about that. But it was a former hospital. And it was over 100 years old or a century, years of age. And our buildings were falling apart. They were historic buildings. I knew nothing about historic buildings. But what I knew was that we needed to save these buildings. Because they, a because of the history and the legacy. And the women who have fought to get these to get this hospital started, it was a hospital for women. But more importantly, for what the services that were being provided in those buildings as crummy as they were for our community. So I took a big risk, and got that whole campus, not me all the sudden, so many people working with me, listed on the National Historic Register of Historic Places, because we had received real estate appraisal that told us the buildings were worth nothing. tear them down soft, this and this is going to make great condos in 15 or 20 years, well, Boston is turning their new condos being built all over the place in Boston. But we felt like the people in that community needed the services. And rather than destroying something, let's rebuild it, let's build it up, what would it take. So that was a huge risk for the organization. Because literally, it was gonna take millions and millions and millions of dollars to restore these buildings

Greg Voisen
and lift you have to raise to raise, you know, it also takes a tremendous amount of courage. And that's another thing. I mean, you know, that you talked about it in the book, a lot of times people are going to be opponents. Yes, they're not, they're not going to agree with your decision. And in a good, strong leadership. You know, I'm sure that Starbucks probably got plenty of opponents saying, hey, you're gonna close down all these stores. You know, and, and I think that's their, you know, your second secret is, uh, compete well, by listening with heart. And I can tell you're a person with big heart. That's why you're such a good leader. But speak with the listeners if you would about this, this secret and the importance of being vulnerable. You talked about, you know, Brene, brown vulnerability, we're, we've all been gotten a big dose of that. And humility, right? Also, what are some of the signs that you're leading with your heart? And now I think you've said it, because you just said, hey, look, I lead with my heart with this hospital, I made a choice, I helped to make a choice to save these buildings. That was a heart-based decision, because you saw the history. So the background, you saw the service to the people, you know, and so how do we get more leaders to have this ability to be driven from their heart and make decisions that

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
way? You know what I've learned, Greg, especially when we look at it, and people like to ask the question with your nonprofit or for profit. And often when I give talks to business people, I'll ask them, what's the difference between the nonprofit and for profit? The only difference in terms of management? Is that a for profit, its profits are going to the shareholders. So that's driving the decision makings of the for profit, right? They want to know, are we giving value to our shareholders, nonprofit, the shareholder is humanity. It is the people it is the mission, the values of the organization. That does not mean that a nonprofit doesn't make money or shouldn't make money. So what I want to say to our audience is, you can still make money by Leaving and doing right for your people. And at the end of the day, when we have a workforce, that is, not everybody will be happy. I don't want to use that I'm not I'm not an unrealistic person. We don't live in a world where happiness abounds, you know, flow overflowing. But we people want to feel satisfied. They want to feel respected. They want to feel valued. They want to feel heard. And when we're doing these things, leading those ways that is leaving for me meeting with heart, if you can lead that way, that does not hold your company back from making money. And Starbucks is probably a great example. I haven't seen their balance sheet lately. But I can't imagine that Starbucks is not profit.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, you bring up an important point and one that I was gonna mention, there's a gentleman you might know him. I can't remember his name right now. He's been on the show several times. He's from Boston. He's the one who started the AIDS walks.

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
Oh, Larry Kessler. Yeah.

Greg Voisen
Is it Larry? Well, he

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
started AIDS Action, and they started eight o'clock. Someone on is the gentleman's

Greg Voisen
not this is the I'll think of it. But the point you made about a for profit and a nonprofit comparison between the two. And that where that money is going? You know, he writes, because most people who are donors, he's dealing with donors, and they're saying, well, you know, where's that money going, but the nonprofit has a right to make a profit so that it can do that. No, they call it a nonprofit, it has to have the funds. And he has to distinguish for donors, you know, really the understanding of that basic concept you're just talking about, right? So you say no, and

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
donors would say, you know, what donors would say, Greg, if he was running huge deficits, and they would say poor management? Yeah.

Greg Voisen
Exactly. Exactly. You know, your third secret is to keep your bags packed. I get it, you know, it's like, something may happen, you may gotta pick up and leave. What are some of the external influences that can change in ways that require a leader to move on? There were many of them you pointed to?

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
Yes. Let me tell you, this has been something that has been with me, since I was a young, young, just out of graduate school. And I heard a speaker, his name was John Boone, he was the first black commissioner of corrections in Massachusetts isn't many, many decades ago. And he gave a talk. And when he talked about keeping your bags packed, it was not about profitability, or, you know, fighting with management. It was about understanding what your core values are, what are your sign? What do you stand for? Where are your lines in the sand? Yeah. And he said, it was really about, you know, understanding what makes you tick, as a person as a leader, and, and having the courage to live out your values. And I want to say to our audience, every single leader will be challenged at some point in their career with a moral decision. Is this the right thing to do for my company, for the organization, for the people I work with, we will all be forced to make some sort of decision. And if we don't know where our line in the sand is, then we're, we're bound to end up, you know, having issues and having problems. So his issue about keeping the backpack was more about that. And what I would say to you right now, is, as hard as it is, that is really has to be, you know, top of mind for so many leaders, I'm in higher education, and we're seeing in the Boston area, a number of college presidents deciding to step down. And part of it, I think, has been because these past few years, have been very, very been challenging for us all. But there were many, many decisions that we that leaders in higher education have had to make. And so this issue of when am I going to be either challenged to do something undertake something that really digs too much into my heart into my soul? Or when can I when am I not as affected? If as I need to be as a leader, so that's what this business about keeping your backpack is about. Because if we have that mindset, that as hard as it is as hard as I love this place, it's time for me to walk away, you can make those decisions, as hard as they are, you have the ability to step forward and make them. So that's, that's what I meant by that great well,

Greg Voisen
and you did a good job of that, I think that look it in. If your values are being compromised as a leader, the line in the stand sand is when they're being compromised, to the degree that you can't live with that anymore. And I can use a perfect example of somebody have been working on any SOP for this company, the owner came in crying into the boardroom was big company, CEO. And literally this is a man in his 60s doesn't show much emotion most of the time, but this time did, because one of his employees that was out in the field was managing clients in an untrustable way. So the clients didn't trust what they said they were going to do. In other words, they were upselling them, oh, you need this, you need that you need that. And that was not this man's morality. This was his, you know, he built this company, on trusting relationships with these customers. And he's seeing himself lose customers, as a result of how some of these employees have been treating these customers, unethically. And he was appalled so much to the point that emotionally he was just distraught when he walked in the room. That's the kind of thing where you crossed the line. And you start thinking about, you know, are you going to pack your bags? And he even said to me, he said, I think maybe I, you know, I might want to like, get somebody else in here to run this thing. You know what I mean?

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
So I guess he wanted to leave. He did,

Greg Voisen
but it's his company, and he owns all of it. 100%. Now, look, we've covered a lot of your secrets. And I think for purposes of time, I'm going to skip forward, I'm gonna let the listeners actually get a copy of the book. This is a great book, and it you know, we did cover, keep your backpack, Echo one message at a time and look for opposition. But Jackie, you fill it with stories, great stories, some of your own. So we're talking about Howard Schultz, examples of responsible leaders, if you were to leave the listeners with the most important takeaways from your book, what would it be? And how can they apply them to their leadership skills today, something that they could take away? I think we've talked about a lot already. But is there anything in particular that you'd like to leave them with that they could really work on? Well, I

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
guess, Greg, what I would say is, continue to be curious about you, yourself, what's driving you? What's driving you in your leadership role? What's driving your organization, and that curiosity is going to lead you to wanting to be better, is going to lead you to wanting to be stronger, it's going to lead you to ask him these questions that you talked about in terms of that we're all struggling with in terms of morality, in terms of our own way of being in the world we live in. And I think if we are continuously asking ourselves these questions, I don't want us to get morbid and not and be ineffective. But we have to constantly question. And if we're doing that, I think it's going to make us stronger Leaguer leaders, it's going to make,

Greg Voisen
I would say your curiosity is probably one of the key things. It really is. And, you know, I don't do a podcast show, because I'm the greatest podcast guest or host. I do a podcast show because I'm curious. And if there is one, I've always been that way. My whole life. I've always asked questions and wanted to know why and how do we fix it? And, you know, good leaders are problem solvers. You know, it's, it's what you do you find a problem, you figure out a way to solve that problem with your team with the support of them, because many of them are much smarter than you. And, you know, I give credit to where the intelligence comes from. You know, I come from a spot because doing shows on spirituality, business, personal growth and wellness. There's a master intelligence above us, if you look for it. You're getting signs and symbols all the time if you're tapped into your intuition. If you're curious, there's a good chance you're probably pretty intuitive at Well, yeah. You can, you can feel things you can you know, some people feel things, some people say they see a vision of something. Some people sense it in a different way. You know, we've got four ways in which we can sense it. But the reality is, is that for me, it's a feeling. It's a feeling about a person, a circumstance and event, something that happened. I also believe that I see signs in other words, a bird flies by or something else. And I know I'm a little bit off track here. But

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
If you took your yesterday is I allowed you even look at that bird flying by because I don't see the bird flying by

Greg Voisen
Well, I'll see the bird or and then think about what does that mean? Not just seeing the bird it's actually seeing the bird and what symbol or sign was I getting? What message was I getting? You know, those are important to me. And people would say, well, you're half cocked. Do you know you don't make decisions that way? And I'd say yeah, I do make a lot of decisions based on that. You know, I it's just the way it is. But this is a great book for all of you. Go pick up a copy of this book. We've been on with Jackie Jenkins-Scott. Her website again is j-j-s-advising dot O R G not com dot org. And Jackie, thanks so much for being on inside person.

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
It was a great honor. Appreciate it.

Greg Voisen
I enjoyed it so much. I really did. Thanks so much to you.

Jackie Jenkins-Scott
Have a great day.