Greg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. Glen, I always say that because I've done 11, 141 episodes, so I'm not certain what number of years will be but thank you for joining us from Bend Oregon. Glen van Pesci, he is the author of a brand-new book and let me get it out of my face. I'll do it over here. It will put it here. Take Less. Do More.: Surprising Life Lessons in Generosity, Gratitude and Curiosity from an Ultralight Backpacker. Glen, good day. Thanks for being on the show.

Glen Van Peski
You bet. Great to see you again after all these years.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, he and I go back to a time in Vista California when we were in Toastmasters together, and we knew a lot of the similar people. So for all of those out there who know this area, Glen used to live down here, but he's now up and bend enjoying the beautiful country up there, Mount bachelor and the rest of things. And I'm gonna let him know a little bit about you, Glen, he's known by the trail named legend, where his legendary contributions to the backpacking community, is a native California. Glen grew up in the western outdoors with his oldest son joined when he joined scouts, he led a troops backpacking program. Through those experiences, he became intrigued by lightweight backpacking I did too. The lighter I could get it, the more I enjoyed it. I remember I had an old Kelty pack. I had a trade in. Then there's a company in Temecula that started, and I got one of their packs. Gregor, Gregory. Gregory, yeah, and it went along with my name, too. So yeah. And then he started sewing his own gear, and eventually started his own company and Mac manufacturing ultralight equipment. Glen and his company have been featured in backpacker outside National Geographic adventure magazines in New York's Times, and that is gossamer for all of you are interested, it's on the front of the book that is the name of the company. He's an internationally sought after speaker, known for his inspiring, humorous, informed PAC presentations. He has hiked most of the Pacific, has tail and wandered the back country of Japan and Europe, and bike packed on the Great Divide, and as I said, he lives in his bend organ with his wife, Francine, and for over 40 years, and he's the father of two grown sons. Well, thanks for all of that. Thanks for your contribution. I think that's the key, the contribution that people leave, the footprints that we leave behind. I think it's very important, and I know that as a way, I want to say a backpacker and naturalist, what you take in, you take back out again. So, if you're plaguing it in, you're going to pull it back out again, right?

Glen Van Peski
That's, that's the goal, yes, enjoy it while you're there. But yeah, leave it better than you found it.

Greg Voisen
Well, that's take less, do more, right? I love the title. It's really compelling. Share with the listeners the origin of this philosophy and how it's kind of shaped not only your life on the trail, but your personal life.

Glen Van Peski
Yeah, great. Thanks for having me. It's great to connect after, after all these years when I saw your name pop ups like, Wait, great voice, and I know that day, and it's like it took us a while to put it together for sure. You know, for many years, I was working long hours, and so I had a limited time off, and I like to go backpacking, and so a lighter pack enabled me to do more miles. So, you know, I could go further in a three-day, four-day weekend, I could really make a long trip out of it, instead of just doing a few miles a day. You know, it made getting outside, or getting, I should say, getting outside with less gear, also was less of a barrier to the outside experience. You know, when I'm in the wilderness, I want to enjoy all of it kind of with all my senses. And if I'm zipping myself up in a tent and I can't see or hear anything outside. I'm not really enjoying that, whereas, if I'm traveling with a really light load, I can look around, if I'm sleeping under a tarp, I can enjoy the stars and the breezes and everything going on around me. So for me, it makes for more. Immersive experience, which obviously there's some downsides. If there's a lot of bugs, you don't want that immersive inexperience. So yeah, move to a tent. But you know, off the trail, what it made me realize is, if I can go out for three or four days or a week with all my gear weighing less than five pounds. It made me realize how little I need to be comfortable and happy, and so while I enjoy and I'm grateful for all the conveniences of modern life as we enjoy them in this country, you know, I don't, I don't need those to be happy. I realize that. I mean, they're nice, but I can be happy without them, so that makes me more grateful for having them and less fearful about losing them.

Greg Voisen
Would you consider yourself a minimalist?

Glen Van Peski
You know? I, I always say there's, there's not enough evidence in my house to convict me of being a minimalist. And part of that is my wife of 42 years now, francity, but I can't blame it all on her. You know, part of always wanting to go out with the light of stuff means I have a variety of gear for a variety of seasons, because I wouldn't want to take a heavier jacket, you know, to save the two ounces. So I do have a fair amount of gear, actually,

Greg Voisen
even though there's nothing where I think there's nothing wrong with that. When I say a minimalist, I think from a philosophical standpoint, it's really more about how we touch the earth and how we touch others, right, and how we can do that, and my sense is that you've paid a lot of attention to both of that, and in the book, you discuss this idea of wilderness as a great leveler. I think that's where we're getting to here. And can you elaborate on how this concept has influenced your interactions with others, and especially during any kind of adventurous expedition that you've gone on. Because, as you know, last year, I helped a gentleman write a book called the precipice of life, which is the highest Seven Summits. And recently I had a gal on here, Jen Drummond, a 44 year old woman with seven children, who's climbed all the highest Seven Summits. And you think to yourself, she was in a automobile accident that almost killed her, and that was the thing that changed her mind, meaning, okay, I'm going to go do something now. And she started with one peak, and then it just kept progressing on and on and on. And I always look at this because the wilderness, whether it's Everest or it's a Pacific Coast Trail, you call it the great leveler. It's a great leveler, wherever you are, you never know what's going to happen out there, right? So you have to kind of be prepared. Yet, in your case, you're coming with the least amount of gear possible. That doesn't mean that you're not prepared, but at the same time, you are trying to continue to reduce the weight of the amount of things that you take with you. Yeah. And so how does this apply? How to also, how does this apply with your interactions with others? Because my sense is, and I'm a podcaster, so I have to kind of talk for a living, but I think the more we listen versus the more we talk, the more we understand.

Glen Van Peski
Yeah, I mean, I would agree with that, and I like your before we got into this discussion, your nuanced kind of understanding of minimalism, because to me, if you have a lot of possessions, but they don't have a hold on you, that's part of minimalism. I mean, we, you know, have a very nice Sprinter van, and we'll lend it to friends. And, you know, people are gassed at that saying, well, that's a very expensive, very, you know, vehicle, and you would land us like, what's the worst going to happen? You know, something's going to break, they're going to crash it, or whatever. It's just stuff. And they, you know, when you when you realize how little stuff you need to be happy, it gives you a looser Hold on, no matter how much stuff you have. And then the other part is, when you've had things in life, like the birth of a disabled child or almost being killed in a plane crash, you realize that stuff is not what's important. You know, it's not that is not the important things in

Greg Voisen
life. Well, your son's named after Derek, and he actually is the disabled one, right? Yeah, yeah. And so explain that. How is that affected both you and Francine and just kind of your family. When it comes to your per your perspective about life and living life.

Glen Van Peski
Well for me, so I'm an engineer. I don't work as an engineer anymore, but to me, like, if you're an engineer, you're always an engineer. It's, it's in your DNA. And, you know, I always look at problems like, how could I do it better? How could I do it lighter, more efficiently? You know, I can't help it. I'm always looking like, how could I improve something? You know, I have learned after 42 years of marriage, wives are not a good subject for trying to improve. But, you know, everything else in life, I'm always looking for a way to improve. And you know, Derek. When Derek was born, severely disabled, he was a problem I couldn't solve. I mean, it's, you know, it's not, it's not something you can reason your way through. I wasn't going to be able to fix him, per se. And so it was a process of realizing that he didn't need to be fixed. He was who He was, and even profoundly disabled, he had a purpose in life and the ability to bring joy to others. And so until he, you know, died before his 20th birthday, you know, it was a huge impact on the family in terms of resources and time and energy and and anxiety, and some of those still travel through our lives today. But it, you know, made our other sons, Brian and grant, I think, both more sensitive to others that maybe are different than us. So, yeah, many, many the impacts on our lives for sure. Well,

Greg Voisen
you know, it's, it's, it's a tribute to you to have gone through the things you've gone through and still been able to keep this sense of equanimity, the sense of transparency, of being open. I mean, a lot of people could hold that back, and you have it, and the way you've grown is by being able to express it and put things like that in this book.

Glen Van Peski
Well, what do you you know, one of the benefits of of doing that, of sharing the hard things that have happened in life, is, you know, you realize, when we had a disabled son, we met a lot of other people that you know, had a cousin or someone in the family or a good friend who was severely disabled. And it's not something that generally comes up, you know, but when they see your disabled son, they share a piece of themselves that normally you wouldn't, wouldn't find out about. So, you know, it is a way kind of a leveler, I guess, like, like the wilderness, you know, where it's something that can happen to anybody and how you how you manage that. It's not necessarily something you sign up for, but how you manage that, build that into your life, and how it affects your relationships with others is really what, what leaves the difference well?

Greg Voisen
And you mentioned a plane crash too. You also talk about that, you know, and you survived, right? So, yeah, I did. So the thing is, is that you faced your finitude. And I think when people have a perspective, my eldest son got leukemia at 21 he's now 42 so he still had leukemia all this time, right? But the point is, is that as a family, it united us to look at things in a different perspective. In other words, our lifespan, how long we're here, how we can help and serve, our gratitude for what we have, right. And I think those same imprints happen to most people when they have a sick child or a disabled child or any issue in their life. How did that plane crash change you?

Glen Van Peski
Well, you know, immediately after the crash, I was the first one to come to and you know, as I called out to the others and got no response, I fought for the first minute or two that I was the only survivor of the crash at that point. As it turns out, the pilot died, everyone else was banged up to greater or lesser degrees. But one thing it changed, seeing how the seeing that the pilot had died, he'd been married six months, and you know, seeing his new, now widow at the funeral made me. Not assume that it was going to be back that night when I left in the morning. And so always made sure to tell Francie that I loved her when I left, because, you know, I hoped the pilot did when he left on that trip. You never know when those are going to be your last words. So, you know, it gives you, I think, a, you know, a little perspective on the frailty of life. You know, you don't take it so much for granted, but at same time, it makes you more grateful for every day you have,

Greg Voisen
yeah, it gives you a new perspective. And I think that's good. And you mentioned that you only realize the broader application. And we're talking now about your ultra light philosophy here over time, what are some of the key moments or experience that led to this realization? Because look here, you are an engineer. You said once an engineer, always an engineer. You had to engineer these gossamer gear packs, and that's where this light weight backpacking came from, and that, let's face it, there's been a lot of companies that have attempted to do the same thing, but this company is still successful today, right? And you you have this philosophy. And I realized, as somebody who did backpacking with scouts, and I took him up San Gregorio and Jacinto, and we went into the Sierras, and I did all that kind of stuff, right? It was always, well, how heavy is this? You know, you know, all these kids would be, I'd be taking them along. And it was like, man, your backpack is is too heavy, right? And it wasn't always what the backpack was. It was the stuff they put in it that they thought they needed. Just like what you said, like, oh no. My mom said, I need this extra this. I got this extra that. I mean, you know what I'm talking about. So when you go through the checklist, whether you're a pilot or a backpacker, what is your mental checklist?

Glen Van Peski
So, yeah, I'm a big checklist guy. In fact, you know, we're about to leave in our Sprinter van for a week, and I've got the checklist printed out, you know, of all the stuff I have to do before we leave, and then all the stuff we need to pack. I

Greg Voisen
figured you had a checklist.

Glen Van Peski
Glen, yeah, I have a checklist for every trip I've ever done.

Greg Voisen
And I'm a checklist guy too. And I'm not an engineer, but I am a checklist guy.

Glen Van Peski
Maybe, you know, maybe you are an engineer. I mean, I I always tell people, sometimes I meet people and I say, Hey, I see you. You're an engineer. I don't care what's on your business card. I don't care what you get paid to do. But I know an engineer when I see one.

Greg Voisen
Well, thanks for the compliment. But my son is definitely he's a software engineer, and he used to have checklists for everything so, and I'm sure he still does, because when I go backpacking with him and when I did, he was the one who always knew what food to bring. He had the checklist. I just kind of let him do it.

Glen Van Peski
Well, the great advantage of the checklist is you take advantage of your your previous trips. So, you know, I always start by pulling out the checklist from the last similar trip that I did, and then I think about and research, okay, you know, what are the changed conditions I just got back from a couple weeks in Iceland, you know? So I'm looking at, okay, what's the weather going to be like? What's precipitation going to be like, you know, what are the off trail portions? Am I going to need a blazer or not? You know, do Icelanders dress up at night? You know, are we going to be in remote areas or rural areas? So then I modify the last checklist by like, new information about the trip that we're going to take. And then I also take notes. Like, these are my, these are my notes from from Iceland, you know. And it's, it's, it's things that work, things that didn't work. Like, one of my notes is, bring snacks, you know, this was a guided trip, so they fed us breakfast, and we kind of packed our own lunch from stuff they had, and then they fed us dinner. But what I realized, and failed to realize before the trip, was, you know, I'm used to eating kind of smaller meals, kind of snacks through the day, and I didn't have those because they didn't provide them. And I was thinking all the food was provided. So, you know, that's one of my notes for next time when I do a similar trip, I'll ask some questions, and I'll probably pack a bunch of bars and nuts and stuff like that. Because, you know, now I know, so, you know, before a trip, I'd look at the checklist from previous one, modify that, and then after the trip, I reviewed my notes to see, you know what I learned? What I'm going to do different next

Greg Voisen
time it's it's always good to see the perspective, you know, obviously, having built this company, gossamer gear and and having growing into successful company. But I think, you know, look, a lot of your life has been on the trail. You've been all over and you've learned lessons. And I think what my listeners would really like to know what are, what are one or two of the most surprising and or profound lessons that still resonate with you today, that you learned when you went out on the trail?

Glen Van Peski
Well, I would say the first one that I mentioned is, you know, how little I actually need to be happy. You know, my base pack weights usually under five pounds before food and water, so I can usually address just about any situation that comes up a given trip with that amount of weight. So anything more than that is is gravy. You know, when I get home, I have a newfound appreciation for the things that we take for granted. I mean, we adapt so quickly to our life of incredible luxury in this country. But there's nothing like sleeping in the dirt for a couple weeks to give you a new appreciation for your you know, memory foam, California king mattress at home. Yeah, the ability to, you don't have to treat water, the you get potable water at any temperature in multiple locations of your house. And, you know, you get take hot showers whenever you want. I mean, that's, that's something we take for granted. But after you've been on the trail for a couple weeks, it's like it's magic. It's incredible. You know, not needing to worry about how much power your phone has left because you're in the middle of nowhere, you just plug it in. It's amazing. So that's one thing, and the other thing is,

Greg Voisen
you ever go off totally offline? In other words, have you been out there when you've never had cell service or GPS phone or something like that in case of emergency? Do you actually go that way?

Glen Van Peski
Yeah, that's usually. That's usually my preference. My phone is just the lightest camera I could carry, basically, and that's the only thing I use it for. So I can usually get by four days without recharging it. So if it's a shorter trip, I don't take an extra battery. And then, if the law, it depends on, you know, the longer trip I'm off trail or by myself, maybe I'll take a, you know, three ounce Garmin, so I have some emergency capability. So

Greg Voisen
you have, yeah, yeah. Uh, GPS phone, or whatever they call them. Is

Glen Van Peski
that what it's called? Yeah? Uh, yeah, Garmin, whatever they call it, merch, yeah. They

Greg Voisen
make, they make these phones, yeah. The way you can, I, you know, I think for a lot of people, that is that feeling of being totally unconnected to civilization and in in general, is there's this whole fear associated with that, right? And you know, you you took a variety of people on these trips, from CEOs to artists. And I'm curious, what have these diverse groups taught you about the human experience and really the common ground that we all share, and some of the things that you had to do to help prepare these people to go on these trips, because they're not used to going out in the wilderness like you were, and certainly not with five pound backpack. And even if you put in the food in the water, let's say you took it up to a total of 20 pounds. That's still pretty light.

Glen Van Peski
So usually they do know something about backpacking, because, you know, for the I have, I have what I call the list, and couple times a year, I'll get some permits and send out a blind copy invite to the list. And there's, there's three criterias for being on the list this. The first one is, you have to be good company in the wilderness. And my shorthand for this is people with something to say but nothing to prove. You know, people that are interesting are willing to share, but don't have to be the one always talking. Don't have to be the center of attention. The second criteria is they have to have their gear somewhat organized, be experienced. Because I'm not. I have a few gifts, but teaching is not one of them.

Greg Voisen
And you're an engineer, yeah, exactly. Figure it out. Figure it out on your own, dude. And then third is you're not that patient

Glen Van Peski
says not one of my British No. And the third is that they're in some kind of decent physical shape, because the trips tend to be somewhat rigorous by most people's standards, and it can modify. Kind of the last two, often the first one, the good company is non negotiable. And so you know, people from a wide variety of life end up on my list. You know, friends to friends, or people I come across in podcasts or, you know, when I'm speaking or something, or sometimes just cold emails. You know, someone asked for a pattern on a piece of gear or something. And so it's always a great mix of people from all walks of life. And you know, what I've discovered is that, you know, if you love the outdoors, there's nothing like being outside for a week to strip away. I mean, you could be a hot shot driving a Ferrari, living in La Jolla, but when you're in the middle of slot canyon, it doesn't really matter. None of that very agree, no, it's, it's your door, pooping in a bag. If it's a slot canyon, like everyone else, you're getting water out of a spring. You're lugging everything you decided to bring you don't have staff to take care of it for you. You don't have internet to check on how your stock portfolio is doing. It's just you. And you know that's to me, that's that's the power of wilderness is getting away from the hall, the connectedness of our modern life, and just have time to think, one, you know, time by yourself, to think about things you don't have time to think about because of all that noise going on in our everyday life. And secondly, time to talk and get to know other people, because in our busy lives, it's like you might meet someone for coffee or beer after work, but you really have time to delve into things that are going on with them, or, you know, how they brought up, or what they're thinking about, what they're worried about. But when you're, you know, walking for 810, 12 hours a day, you got plenty of time to have those conversations and really get below the surface with someone

Greg Voisen
so true. I When my son got his leukemia, and I'll relate this story, we decided that we would work together and and we devised a course called Never mind the noise thriving in a world of ever increasing complexity. And we used to go out into corporate America and teach mindfulness and meditation, which you can imagine back then. This is a while ago. It wasn't like, always the highest on the list of somebody who's like, okay, so we get this gig, and I'm going to tell this story really quick logistics. So we go to Atlanta, where I was Atlanta, I think, and it's FedEx, and it's ups, and it's these people that are just rushing around like crazy. And we have this breakout in this room, my son and myself, and we got the gig through a friend. Every session, for four sessions was people waiting in line at the door to get in so that they could meditate for the first time or learn something about mindfulness. It's it just, it's kind of, you know, you can imagine what it's like being in the FedEx business or UPS or Amazon drive or whatever. You're just constantly on the move. So I think good on you. Now. Gossamer gear is still successful business. It was under your leadership. You're now not leading it. Are you that correct?

Glen Van Peski
I'm still you're on the you're on the board, on the board. I'm still doing product design. I mean, the last tent we came out with was something I developed for a trip I was taking. So, yeah, okay, so,

Greg Voisen
so, but you often emphasized humility and service, and I think it says in the subtitle graciousness, gratitude, curiosity, all from the ultra backpacker. How do you maintain these values in the world of entrepreneurship? I think when we're speaking of business people right now, I think one of the things around that divides our world today is not Ali Lama says it. A lot of people say it. The only thing that's really going to help cure us and solve us is more compassion. With compassion comes humility. With compassion comes generosity. With compassion comes understanding and better communications. So what does that mean to Glen van Pesci,

Glen Van Peski
well, I guess for me, I realized it somewhere along the way that it's not about me. You know, no matter how hard you work and how smart you are, everything that you want to accomplish in the world is going to be done through others. And so you. Need to figure out how to relate to other people and how to serve other people. And I'm an introvert, so I've had to work at it. You know, I just as soon be quiet then go up and talk to someone, but

Greg Voisen
you know, they're doing a good job here.

Glen Van Peski
Well, that's where the magic happens. Is, you know, when you go up and talk to someone like we were France and I were sitting on our front porch last night having a little dinner to join the the bend evening, and I see our neighbors cross the street walking up, mother, mother, father, you know, daughter, son, and the the kids, Delilah and Luke, are always over our house, checking things out and running up and down the stairs. And so I went over, you know, down down the stairs, to go chat with them. And parents kind of rolling her eyes, you know, that I'm bugging the neighbors, but I just found out the dad, who's a doctor, is he said, Hey, I need to talk to you, because I'm going to climb Cotopaxi with some friends of mines, and I want to do a light so, you know, we had a great conversation about some of the options and footwear and, you know, base layers and stuff like that. So if I hadn't got over and said hi, I mean, I guess eventually he would have gotten around to talking to me about it. But, you know, going up to people that's, that's where the magic happens. You're

Greg Voisen
so true. I mean, you know, like serendipitous little talks that you have. We go out on nightly walks here in Encinitas, we talked, I talked to the neighbors. My wife's more of an introvert, but the reality is, is that, you know, she says, Well, you'll talk to anybody. And it kind of is really true. But I learn, you know, I learn about the whole human experience, you know, like, what's going on, and if you just ask one question and then shut up and listen, you're good to go. Yeah, it's like, no, never know. We're out waiting to respond to what you just want to hear, what they have to say, right? And I've had people tell me their whole life story, you know, it's like, I'm still listening 45 minutes later. You know,

Glen Van Peski
probably because no one ever asked them, you know, no one ever tried,

Greg Voisen
right? Right. I we used to have this old saying. There was a guy in in an office I used to work in, and we used to say, Hey, Don we asked you what time it was, not how to make the watch, but he would literally go on about all, you know, this is how this works. This is like typical engineer. He was definitely an engineer, but he told us exactly how to make the watch, not what time it was.

Glen Van Peski
So you learn it the only way out of time. You don't ask, Don, you know, you ask somebody else. But if you really want, and I and Don's your man. And

Greg Voisen
I just learned just a week and a half ago that Don passed away. He was 79 and I'm, I'm so kind of taken aback by that, because of he was such a healthy liver and a good guy. So look, in your journey, you faced a lot of challenges and failures, and if you talk to the listeners about one of the significant failures that taught you an invaluable lesson, I think that helps listeners really understand how to reframe, reframe looking at a failure and how you can reshape it in life, to look at life in a different way. Now, obviously, your disabled son is not your failure. Your plane crash isn't your failure. We're talking about other things that happened that you could say, hey, I really learned something, and I reframed my perspective in the way I looked at life.

Glen Van Peski
Well, I guess, you know, one significant thing in our lives was having to close down my engineering company, Pacific Rim engineering, you know, the economy turned south in San Diego. I'm sure you remember this. I think two thirds of the architects in town went to Arizona or somewhere, or did, ended up doing something else. But I had to work. I worked. Ended up working for a year without salary, while I found my employees jobs at other firms, and then finally closed down and went to work for another engineering firm. And I had to, you know, instead of driving over to San Marcus, I was driving down to San Diego.

Greg Voisen
But I think what you just said, Glen is most important point, and I don't want people to miss it while you spent time helping your employees find other jobs. You know that happened at Airbnb, and the young man who owned Airbnb, he had to go through a major layoff, and what he did was he actually had severance pays, and he helped them all find jobs. Now that's. The testament to the character, the individual like yourself, you helped all these other people find jobs

Glen Van Peski
you don't touch with, still in touch with some of those early employees, you know? I mean, yeah, it wasn't Yeah.

Greg Voisen
And I have people that work for me even today that I could say, hey, well, maybe the economy is a little tough, or things aren't going right. I could lay them up, but I don't. I keep them employed, right? And I do that as long as physically or humanly possible for something to change. And I think that's what we're talking about here. Is your your not only your melody, but your humanity, right? And that's really important. Um, any other things that were failures or setbacks that you learned from? Anything out on the trail that happened that was a failure that you learned from?

Glen Van Peski
Yeah, any, any, anytime you're trying to cut things close, you know, get your weight down to a minimum. There's always an experience where you cut it a little too far. And there was one time when Reed Miller and I were hiking on the Pacific Crest Trail, and we're headed north, kind of towards Big Bear. We crossed whitewater Canyon just north of the 10 there, and there's a bunch of water in the creek, and so we still have a little water in our bottles. And so we could have filled up, but we said, well, you know, it looks like the trail kind of parallels the creek. So why would you carry water, which is heavy longer than you need to. So we hike on for, I don't know, another 45 minutes, then we're really out of water. And so we walk over to the edge of where the creek is the gully, and it's bone dry. You know, it's one of these arroyos, these washes, the water comes and goes in the rocks and whatever the underlying geology is so you know, then we have to walk all the way back to where we find water, and by now we're out of water, and it's super hot. There's no shade, yeah, so I think we and dehydrated and dehydrated, we, we,

Greg Voisen
you're lucky you didn't pass out on the way.

Glen Van Peski
Well, yeah, close. We drew straws. And I think Reed may have cheated, because he saw how bad I was off. But anyway, he he took both our water containers and hiked back to fill him up with water, and he's probably gone, I don't know, an hour, I found a little sagebrush that I could at least put my head kind of in the shade,

Greg Voisen
and so then you weren't feeling too good. I

Glen Van Peski
take it wasn't feeling too good. He came back. We drank water, but it still wasn't feeling too good. We hiked on until we actually crossed and there were some oak trees. And by that time, I really didn't feel well as I was shivering, even though it's high 80s out, yeah, and so I crawled in my down sleeping bag and kind of shivered myself to sleep with the what I bought, yeah, let the water kind of work its way back into My body, and then, you know, then we could continue. But, yeah, that was kind of a little close.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I did a, I did a cycling event. I'm an avid cyclist, and I went from Mexico to San Felipe at 103 degrees, and I got out there and it, it was supposed to 114 miles, and I got to, like, 105 or something, I said, I just can't go on anymore. And somebody came and put my bike in the back of their truck, picked it up, took me back to the hotel, and I shivered for literally, I can't tell you how long I had never felt so cold. My whole life. I was in bed and or, you know, so you you know. You know when this happens. This is not a good, not a good thing that you've dehydrated yourself. You know, in the introduction of this book, you discuss your decision to take a job as a dishwasher after retirement. You're, we're just talking about you helping people get jobs from your Pacific Rim days. What does this choice say about your values, and how do you view success at this stage in your life? You're older, you know, 6666 so you're still young. I'm 70, so got four years on you. I was wondering why your skin looks so good. For somebody who hiked, it must always keep you must always keep sunscreen on. So mine doesn't look so great, but I guess I'm doing all right for 70.

Glen Van Peski
Yeah. Well, the problem is, we both grew up before they knew about sunscreen, you know, right? Yeah, we got sunburned. Probably both of us, way more than there should have, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I've got plenty of scars all over my body from,

Greg Voisen
uh Oh me too. DERMA melanoma. I've had melanoma, basal cell, all of it removed, and I'm like, Oh my gosh. So, any rate, so this dishwasher thing, what do? What is this kind of what would you say that it says about your view in life? Well, I

Glen Van Peski
think I'm a I'm a fan of building margin in life. And you know, going ultralight backpacking creates margin in the wilderness. You have ability to go further, to help other people and in life. You know, when you're intentional, you can create margin of time, energy and money, and then, if you're curious, that you can become aware of opportunities to to help others. You know you you notice things. It's like, you know, Joe doesn't seem to be as upbeat as usual. You know, maybe I should see what's happening and find out that, you know, he just got a diagnosis, or his wife just got a diagnosis. And, you know, they're in hard times, and there's something that, some way you can help. So, you know, the dishwashing is just they were looking for a part time dishwasher. And you know, I kept seeing the notice up there, and you know, the whole story is in the book, but I kept thinking about it. They I asked them about and they said, Oh, we're waiting for the right person.

Greg Voisen
And what say when you took the job? She, she she just said whatever. She just shook her ad like she normally does,

Glen Van Peski
yeah, but you know, when they, when they said, No, we're waiting for the right person, that those words were like, maybe I'm the right person, you know, maybe there's a reason why this job hasn't been filled yet. You know, maybe because I need to be the one to fill it. You know, it's a it's a place, I think, you know, in life, we need to find a place where we can use our talents and resources. And I don't claim to have any particularly talent and wash of dishes, but to me, it's a lesson that any job can be important and useful. I mean, the dishwasher position is the least glamorous, lowest paid. But if the dishes aren't clean, everything else cries to halt. You know, you need a constant supply of of clean dishes and pots and pans for everything else to work. And this is the way it ends in life. I mean, you know that we don't pay attention to the people delivering the paper, taking out, you know, collecting the garbage and things like that. But

Greg Voisen
are they going a week or two people that change the bed in our hotels, or exactly any of that? And I've always been the person that thinks, right? And, you know, I've been that dishwasher as you have, not only as a kid growing up, but also at the scout camp, where I literally, that's how I started, and washing dishes at meditation retreats on the orcas islands. Basically we we build a community, and everybody takes turns. Now, washing dishes is a mindfulness of meditation practice and of itself. So when you talk about all these hours of hiking or cycling or whatever, dishwashing can be another one, that it puts you in a complete meditative kind of state. It puts you in this spot of mindfulness of what you're doing. And I just want people to know there's absolutely nothing wrong washing dishes. As a matter of fact, I had some of the most fun getting to be with other people in a community washing dishes. And it's a lot of fun.

Glen Van Peski
Yeah, I mean, that's some of the things I get out of it. I wouldn't, at least in my experience, hasn't been meditative. I mean, it's fast pace you're running around. I mean, it's, it's all hands on deck, you know, operation. But, you know, it does provide me an opportunity to be part of a team. You know, that adrenaline rush of you're all working towards the common goal and making sure everybody has everything they need. And it's been a way for me to be a resource to others. You know, talk to some of my co workers about they're thinking about starting a business. Want to pick somebody's brain, and I had an opportunity to actually help out the company during covid with some resources. So, you know, you just never know the impact you're going to have no matter what your job title is,

Greg Voisen
you're definitely one of those people who will step in anytime, and you're the renaissance man I call you. So look, we've covered a lot of ground here talking about your book. Again, for all my listeners, we're putting a link up. Uh, to the book here, take less, do more. We'll also put a link to Glen's website. It's Glen van pesci.com Please go there if you want to learn more about Glen the book gossamer. It's a really well done, well built website. So finally, if readers are going to take away one key message from take less, do more. What do you hope it'll be, and how do you envision it hopefully impacting their lives and the lives of others? What would you want to leave listeners with to wrap it up?

Glen Van Peski
You know, I don't know what the key message is going to be for any individual reader. I mean, let's be honest, there's nothing really new in this book. I mean, it's not like I've discovered some magic key to unlock a life of purpose, but I know that people hear things in different ways and at different times in their life when they're ready to hear it. And so my hope is that you know through the stories that I tell for my life and the life of others, and you know the words I've chosen and the timing of the book kind of coincide for some people, and they'll get something out of it that allows them to create a life for themselves. It's that has less stress and striving and more joy and purpose.

Greg Voisen
Well, Glen, you've been an honor. It's been an honor having you on the show. It's been an honor reconnecting. I hope that now that you're going to come down my way, we can hook up, and I get to reconnect with you for at least a cup of tea or coffee. But thank you so much for sharing your stories, your wisdom, your knowledge about this, and again, for all my listeners, the book is, take less, do more. We'll have a link up there, and it's glenvanpeski.com. Thanks so much, Glen.

Glen Van Peski
Thank you, Greg. Always a pleasure to chat with someone about how to make life better you.