Greg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. Joining me from London, England is Dr. Bruno and I don't want to mess up your last name so say it for us.

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Cignacco.

Greg Voisen
Cignacco. And he has this book called The Art of Compassionate Business: Main Principles for the Human-Oriented Enterprise. This is a Rutledge book. But for many of you know, that's more of kind of like, even a textbook, but it's a big book. It's, it's 400 Plus pages. But what we're going to do today is we're going to distill it down. And I'm going to tell the listeners a little that a bit about you, Bruno, he's the CEO, and founder of his own consulting business, called Human-Oriented Enterprise. For more than 30 years of experience supporting companies from different sectors worldwide. He's also been teaching business modules at several universities, both at graduate and postgraduate levels, and he trained companies for around 20 years in the UK and other countries. He is also well known for his TEDx speaker talk. He is a senior fellow of Higher Education Academy and UK. He is the author of several business books published in different language, one of them the fundamentals of international market marketing, which Ben is praised by International Trade Center, Geneva, Switzerland. He's a leading organizational worldwide regarding international trade and international marketing. He is a master life coach and a master in LP practitioner, Neuro Linguistic Programming, at stock that's Bandler. And actually, Bandler is in London. So that's where you can get that course. And his study disciplines related to personal development. For more than 30 years, he's delivered countless talks, seminars and conferences in several countries. He's also the author of a personal development book published, which we're talking about this one, the new book, The Art of Compassionate Business. I'm gonna hold that up for all of you, and we're gonna have a link to Amazon. For all you want to learn more about Bruno go to humanorientedenterprise.com, humanorientedenterprise.com. You can learn more about the workshops, you can learn more about what they do there, and so on. Well, Bruno, I want to know how you define compassionate business, because it's kind of this amorphous thing that floats around. We've had lots of people speak about it. Europe seems to be at the forefront, I think, as much or more than the US, which is probably why you have more, you know, interest there. Richard Barrett was one of the first people I trained through who really taught this concept well, what are the core principles of it?

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Yes, the core principle of compassionate pieces are to connect to different stakeholders, and understanding on a mental level, how they think, but understanding also on an emotional level, this means how they feel and try to help them when they face challenges. So this means that it's not totally connecting to others from a mental and emotional level, but also try to support them, especially when they face difficulties. An example could be, let's imagine that the company has a supplier that this delivering merchandise late and the supplier have to comply with a contract, we apply the contract the supplied by the penalize, but it will treat the supplier in a compassionate way, the company representative might look to the supplier might have a one to one meeting to see what difficulties this applied face. And also to see how they can support the supplier in the future. In order the supplier is prevented from being late. So this means that we understand what we're treating stakeholders in a compassionate way we understand that people face difficulty have challenges. And when we find this challenging situation, people want to be supported. They don't want to be criticized or penalized because we treat others in a judgmental way. We are more prone to break up this relationship. Why because people become defensive instead when you treat people in a supportive way. They treat you in a reciprocal way it means supporting others, help them support you. So this means that he said is a very positive cycle, you support others and they're more prone to contribute to your company in a positive way. Instead of when you penalize or you judge others very harshly, they're prone to withdraw their pro not to cooperate.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's interesting you say that because you know many of my listeners and myself you know you listen to the Dalai Lama. Ommaney says the only way the world is going to heal is if we're compassionate. Now, sometimes people would say, bro, no compassion, and business don't go hand in hand. In other words, they're saying, Hey, we have to get things done on time within a budget. We've got all these parameters associated with this. And while we would maybe like to be compassionate, it's hard because we have other people leaning on us. So how do you get all the stakeholders that are involved in this together to actually know that we're operating as a compassionate business, so all the stakeholders understand what the outcome needs to be very

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
interesting. But uh, so, in order to be compassionate, we have to focus on two main aspects of business, we have to focus on what we call one TTD does become pieces, which are very important for business survival and success, such as profit market share a productivity quality levels, but also we have to focus on qualitative aspects of business what cannot be measured precisely what cannot be counted. For example, support care, compassion, generosity, gratitude. By focusing also on qualitative aspect of pieces, you forced the restaurant or less in relationship with different stakeholders, that will be so important because no company can succeed without the stakeholder, there is a principle in business called interdependence. This means that companies do succeed need employees, they need suppliers, they need customers, they need community members, they need business partners. So wouldn't it be nice to have all these stakeholders on our side, you cannot force them to be on your side, the only way that they can be on your side contributing to your company's objective is to treat them in a caring way, in a compassionate way supporting them when they face difficulties, being grateful to them. So because when you do so you build strong relationships with stakeholders, and the stakeholders are more prone to support your company, instead of when you treat these stakeholders in a dismissive way, in a non-compassionate way, the stakeholder might tend to withdraw. For example, when you treat customer in a, in a deceptive way on a non-compassionate way. These customers are prone to leave negative reviews, my prone to choose other companies products that are prone to push other potential customers away. Instead, when you treat this customer in a supportive way, when you adopt an attitude of service, they try to serve this customer in high value, these customers are prone to reciprocate, they will leave positive reviews, they might come back, they are prone to become loyal and committed to your company. And they might also bring some more customers and potential customers. So this means that when you are compassionate with this stakeholder, they tend to work in a compassionate way to your company, they tend to contribute to your company's success. And as we mentioned, no company can succeed without the stakeholder because companies are always interdependent with the stakeholders. That's

Greg Voisen
a great way to phrase that. And thank you for that now, inside the organization not working with other stakeholders just through our rank and file and our people. We obviously want to treat them compassionate, we understand that employee engagement is kind of an all time low in this country. And it's at that low because they're the employees aren't being fulfilled. They're not getting what they really need or would like to have. And you see how dynamic things and how fast things are moving in our world with AI and all these other things. What would you say as somebody who teaches this with inside the culture of an organization to maintain this, but also to also have accountability, because we're seeing this falling short of accountability inside these organizations where things aren't getting done, and that's causing more and more agitation, and that agitation is going all the way up the ladder? And I could cite many companies where this has been happening, but how would you kind of address that as a consultant?

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Very interesting question. So, first, I will address a very important factor that is hidden in most organizations. In most workplaces that I observe as a consultant, there is fear, fear, so I will have to say this very clearly fear for example, employees have fear of being fired, fear of being mistaken fear of sharing resources with other colleagues, fear of being outpaced by other colleagues, they are competing with each other instead of cooperating with each other. When there is fear, there cannot be support that cannot be cooperation. When people are fearful. They tend to be less creative, less productive, why? Because they become reactive. They are trying to become defensive before the threat. Instead, when a workplace is compassionate, this means that people support one another, there is what may psychology will upset us psychological safety. There is a very interesting study on psychological safety that this researcher conducted a very important survey. And they observed that workplace it they are loving these workplaces that they are loving, loving, this is the word that they use. These mean that people support one another, they cared for one another, they're generous, they're grateful with one another. And so this means that they're cooperative in this workplace, there is higher employee satisfaction, higher customer satisfaction, why because employees that are certified tend to serve customers in a more effective way, employees that are happy, make customer happy, but also there is lower absenteeism, lower stress levels, this means that employees lower medical costs, but also there is also more cooperation. And this brings about a positive impact on the bottom line, this means profit. This is quite important because when employees are supported, when they feel that they are taken care of they are appreciated within the company, they tend to be more productive, they tend to go the extra mile. And this is quite important because employee have many types of needs. Most company focus on one type of need, economically, we pay a salary that they allow them to have a livelihood, nice livelihood to pay their bills, but the employees have emotional needs, they need to be appreciated, they need to be supported, they need to be recognized when they contribute to the company. For example, a thank you note writing a thank you note personalized thank you note to this employee, an event to celebrate the employees accomplishment, but also the maintenance. I see companies that have the employee 24/7 How many men male, the employee get bored, they get demotivated, they don't have mentally stimulation, employees happy mental need, they need novelty. For example, what about introducing job rotation employees, one week work in one department another week work in another department so that they have a much more holistic view of the company. And employees have also shown certain needs, I see many employees that are isolated working on their own, they cannot relate to one another, isn't he they kind of have a non business conversation with colleagues. Because I saw a company here in the UK, I won't mention the name of the company that have eight hours a week they have a meetings every day, employees don't have time to talk about their family, their friends, in the break time, they don't have break time. So how you can develop bonds with colleagues, if you only talk about business, talking about business is important. But also employees have a life outside the company. And they need to form some bond with other colleagues. So employees to summarize, have economic needs, social needs, mental needs, and other needs that need to be addressed? Most company focus only on the economic needs of the Signet team.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, for many years, I I worked in spirit in business spirituality in business. And I think spirituality when you really look at it, if we can't bring our spirituality to business. It's it's a problem, okay? In the sense that, hey, if we leave work, we do things differently than we do at work. No, it has to be one in the same, it has to be connected. And I've been actually recently advised that we make a sacrifice for our time, we're a contract with an employer for something in the future retirement plan, a 401 K plan, whatever it might be, but we've made this contract and we've sacrificed what other because all we have is time, that's all we've got left. So when you get down to the deep psychological part of it, there has to be a very strong driving spiritual, emotional, mental way for me to get engaged in this company to feel like I'm doing something different and especially with the new generations, the new generations of people and that brings me to this research in your research, did you find cultural differences and age differences in how compassion and business is perceived and implemented across different regions? So,

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
yes, yeah, they observe what they observe there are two types of cultures many, especially in cultural studies will observe that there are two main type of culture will be called collectivist cultures, where people celebrate for example, group work group achievement, and we can talk about for example, many countries in the South Asia area, this country have a much more collectivist culture and other cultures are much more what we call individualist cultures. This means that if for example, the you phase one of the example United States. So this means that a what you try to pursue there is individual achievement, you what you're trying to pursue is the personal goals. And this means that relationships are important, but they are not very well celebrated as a way of achieving goals together. So, in this case is in these two types of cultures, the culture that are more collected is in this spectrum, they're more prone to build relationships much more naturally, and people are more length, more naturally compassionate with one another. However, compassion is not only, like a privilege of certain cultures, is a principle and a value that can be observed in any culture. And in some cases, people need to be trained or reminded how they can be compassionate because we're all naturally compassionate. And we're all naturally kind and supportive. There are many studies on this, but it worked. I observed that in this collectivist cultures, the relationship are much more a pre release, and people are much more naturally set up in a way that they will support one another. And the collective achievement will be a celebrated as it was being the leader on a team and in the individualist cultures. I hope that I answered this question. Yeah,

Greg Voisen
you did. You talked about an individualistic culture, which is more the UK or Europe and the United States versus some of the Asian ones. And I get that, but what are some of the common resistances companies face when trying to implement compassionate business practices? And how can they overcome them Bruna? What what would be the way that you would advise them to kind of overcome the resistance? I

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
like this question, I love this question. So, the most important resistance is focusing on quantitative aspects of business company that are only driven by economic aspect, what can be measurable can be counted, such as profit market share, tend to this means this qualitative has got pieces that are very important to build a strong relationship with stakeholders, not only with employees, but with other stakeholders, like customers, suppliers. But also there is another interesting speaking visit that this will be called time scarcity. People don't have time to build the relationship with others. So and you see you have tight deadlines, multitasking, many projects, many simultaneous projects that are to be fulfilled, or the labor in a very short time, and people have no time to engage with one another on a mental and emotional level. I read an article many years ago that was titled The human moment at work that was published in Harvard Business Review. And this was one of the courses that brought about the research on this topic. And this author of several companies should foster a connection with different stakeholders on a mental and emotional level. If you have multitasking, if you have tight deadlines, how you can connect to one another on a mental and emotional level, they still have to observe that to be compassionate with others take only one minute, one minute. And there is a very interesting example that is about a doctor in the medical sector that was about to operate the patient. And this doctor a the patient was very nervous, very anxious, and this doctor had a conversation with this patient before the operation. They tried to count this patient down, try to support this patient. When they went through the operation. This patient needed less anesthesia, that their average patient and also poetry, a process was much quicker. So this means that compassion has very tangible concrete effects, help people feel better, bring about a better if you're in a state of well being. But if you're continually a tie with the deadlines, if you are very busy, how you can connect to others on a mental, mental and emotional level, but also another aspect implicit that impede this compassionate relationship. Compassion based relationship is the use of words such as strategy tactics, they're war mongering words, they're very well, using bases competing, when you're competing, competing means you're beating others to get a bit of the share in the market. That is not a vocabulary that is allowing people to treat each other in a compassionate way. This is the way that

Greg Voisen
when we've we've we when I say we I'm going to say a work force, people that's what it's referred to, you can call it human capital. You can call it want. But we have been programmed since a very young age and there's a conundrum between productivity and compassion because we realize eyes that it takes more time to be compassionate. Or maybe it doesn't maybe you can prove me wrong, versus the time we meaning the workforce that it has to spend to be productive. So if I'm being measured, which most businesses have, you know, project managers, you're on a timeline, you've got a Gantt chart, you got things you're doing, you're being measured by, are you getting it done, and if you are, then you're getting a promotion and you're getting more money. How do you take that whole structure, which is business has been built on and change it to one where the conundrum does not exist between productivity and compassion. Use

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
a well a very simple way, taking into account that there are things that cannot be measured, there is a filmer thinker that observes not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts. So this means that there are things that are not measurable, for example, commitment, loyalty, camaraderie, a good business atmosphere, with clients, with suppliers, with employees, workplace that has a very important emotional tone, a positive emotional tone, this cannot be measured in a precise way as you measure for example, market share or productivity. But this is very important, because we saw that we need relationships, strong relationship to fulfill this objective, there is a very counterintuitive theory that I expose in my book that is that many companies go directly to achieve these key performance indicator, productivity, profitability market share, however, counter intuitively, when you focus on developing strong, long lasting relationship with suppliers, employees, community members, these key performance indicators that are the result of the company interdependence with the stakeholders are achieved naturally, effortlessly. Why because you care for suppliers, you care for customer, you care for employees, you support them, and they care for you. They contribute meaningfully and unconditionally to your company. Instead, when you do not care for them, the employees are likely to leave the company, customers are likely to choose other other companies, the suppliers are likely to replace you. So this means that, as I mentioned, interdependent is key. Many companies are not aware that they cannot succeed on their own, they're not an island, they are connected to others, and all the other stakeholders are contributing with value to the company, we need them on our side. So this is the challenge of paradigm, instead of focusing on our own objectives. When we develop what we call Win Win agreements, these mean agreement that are mutually profitable to our company, but also to other stakeholders, these stakeholders will be content will be happy will be certified, and they're more prone to support our company without forcing them because at the end, you cannot force customer to come to your company, you cannot force employees to stay in your company, because they are free. And they can't decide to leave your company to choose other companies. So but when you support them, they tend to reciprocate in a very, in a very effortless way in a very kind way in a very, obviously positive way.

Greg Voisen
Well, and statistically I know you've proven much of this. And there are probably doomsayers out there. But I would say here in the United States, we've seen companies like Patagonia and Whole Foods, John Mackay, and people like this, that have really built organizations and turned them into Aesop's. So there's an ownership in that so they feel like they have a piece of it. And that's a big factor. So how can leaders cultivate a Compassionate Leadership style one? And what are the first steps for them actually becoming more compassionate and developing a business quote unquote, like Whole Foods or like Patagonia?

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Pretty interesting question first. So we have to say that everyone in a company is a leader, not only the one at the top of the company, but if you are, for example, cleaning the toilet, you're a janitor. You can also lead others so this means that regardless of your role, you can always leave and also inspire people and allow them to follow with your vision with your passion for sub leader should take into account that business mission shouldn't be only economically based. This means that we shouldn't be focusing on our base Since purpose only on economic aspects such as profit market share, productivity should be seen, as mentioned, the new generation of company hub business mission that have a social impact means impact on the society in different on different stakeholders a positive impact, they want to live a better world, but also they have a positive impact on the environment. I like Patagonia, you mentioned that they say in their on their website, they said that the main shareholder is the planet. I like this metaphor. The main shareholder, metaphorically speaking is the planet. So this means that they're contributing to environmental project, and they have been doing for a long time, and they're very successful. So this is the first point but also leader should be humble. I mentioned in one of the appendices of the book that leaders, most of the leaders are, I know, we told, and they don't want to hear different opinions are not open to diverse opinions. And this is very important to change this view. When you're humble as a leader, you take into account different views, views from different department views from customer view from people that could be a lower in the hierarchy doesn't matter, because you can always learn you adopt what we call a learning mindset, or a growth mindset. And this means that you are prone to adapt your views. And also you are prone to receive when you are wrong, because many leaders are very arrogant, or they don't want to say when they are wrong, but also leader will also accept that are very compassionate also save the hard facts. For example, if the company is not doing well has a lot of negative customer reviews. Well, we have to check what we're doing wrong. Can we learn from this? Challenge, this challenging experience? So can we add more value? How can we adopt a much more Sarab in attitude toward customer and this leader will also are prone to what would be called to call what we call cross departmental meetings. This means meetings that include representatives from different department, the marketing department, the administrative department of finance, to analyze every single topic, why? Because they don't call only the specialist, they want to hear diverse views on the topic, because most of the topics in business are very complex. And they want to have a multi dimensional view of the on the issue and avoid any blind spots. So they're very prone to learn. And these leaders are also very supportive, they try to adopt an empathetic view on different stakeholders a positive view, but also I will say a compassionate view. This means that whenever possible, this leader will try to encourage us, for example, employees to have some coaching or to have some mentoring to jump right into the schemes.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, look, Bruno, you're teaching in the university. And on top of that, my question for you this is a kind of a sidebar question. You know, as we've watched here, over the last, since the pandemic, changes in leadership in Venezuela, then you've got Putin in Russia, you've got potentially another leader coming into the United States, which could take over as president again, none of these gentlemen have much compassion. Yeah, they're leading one of them the free world, country, right. And it's always intrigued me here. We're talking about compassion and business. And the biggest business we have is government. One of the biggest businesses we have is government. And not very many of them are being run with compassion, and understanding. They're being run on metrics and all the other things that you just talked about, what would be your thoughts around Venezuela, Russia, the US, China, North Korea, where we have now seen a takeover of power in many of these places, which is just power and money, power and money.

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Yes, what that will say I don't generally don't want to talk about politics, but I will say that different government they will have their own style and discover that you mentioned probably have some leeway for a be much more human oriented this mean that even they have their own objectives inside Casio object that could be military objective or political objectives is not enough because at the end, societies are also interdependent. In a society in a country we need each other and the world is in the interdependent no country can subsist survive on its own, we need each other. The principle in international trade and we specialize in international marketing is the principle of interdependent. You cannot be a specialist in everything. So I feel that some leaders, maybe it's one of the one that you mentioned, and others too. It can be be more aware of the interdependence. And this is you cannot survive on a win lose agreement. If you try to win at the expense of others, this is a short lived victory. But what he says is a much more sustainable approach is a seminal approach means that we want a world not only for ourselves, but for our great, great great great grandchildren maybe 200 years time. So this means that maybe these visions or maybe I don't want it to cover any particular leader, but maybe suddenly they have a very short term vision, we'll call it short termism means that they have a very limited view. And this implies that if they don't think about a sustainable way of developing their economies, the social environment, and what we don't know how this will end up this government that you mentioned

Greg Voisen
instead, but yes, how do you? How do you develop these leaders? Or where did these leaders come from? Who've, as I told them, left their ego at the door when they get into a meeting? Because you know, a lot of times no matter if it's a corporation, or it's a government, as you said, the ego sometimes can be so high. And Ken, I want to code be so divisive, in the way in which they speak to people and so on. So what advice would you give to any business, trying to embed compassion into their business model? From the beginning? Because I think sometimes this has to happen from when I start the business, not after the business is going.

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
But important question. So first, so if you are the leader, and you're starting up this business, give a good example. Because there is a lot of research on this, that leader, more there is the behavior in the workplace, and also in relation to other stakeholders when they leave the research center, when you speak to people, for people to work at this company, and act in a seamless way. Not at all, they will take the role model of the leader. So the leader is very important. But also, I would encourage this company that is starting or developing that ask themselves very important reflection question. How can I be more supportive with different stakeholders? Because we depend on each other? How can I be more generous and grateful? And when I talk about this in different training courses, they told me, Oh, we cannot be generous with a stakeholder because we don't have money. We don't have resources. We don't have a finance, finances. But you can be generous with different stakeholders in a very intangible way. What about a manager that is generous with their subordinates, by giving them advice, giving them an ear when they have some problems, giving them the chance to work flexible time when you have some challenges at home? And what about the colleague that is helping a new colleague, a will, for example, son training, or coaching this colleague or mentoring when possible. So this means that being generous, beget more generosity instead, when you're a stingy when you're self centered, these people that you're relating to think luck in the same way, they tend to be not generous, they tend to be they tend to withdraw in many

Greg Voisen
cases, was like you did a lot of studies for this book and observed a lot. And what would be the future trends in compassionate business practices? And where do you believe that this is headed? Here? We are today. 2024. May we if we look forward another 10 years? Where are the trends headed Bruno? And what do you think we can expect given all of the technology that's going to evolve in the next 10 years, everything from the AI to robots that will actually be some of those things replacing people in the workplace for this machine learning

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
3.3 Point technology technology might replace on workers, but whenever the company used new technology, for example, AI or any other technology, there should be always human touch this mean for example, if you send emails, there should offer the possibility for the customer to contact the company on the phone, if you're using AI, where you can offer also the option to for customer to form this company. So this mean that technology should be used alongside will be called the human contact. Another point that I want to highlight that the trend shows that many companies that are becoming more compassionate will give a lot of importance not only to financial statements, for example, balance sheet income statement, if they get a loss or a profit, but also they have also a lot of priority and given a lot of priority to what we call show Shall a statement or socially impact statement where they show for example, how much money they donated to charities, when they show how they reduce the carbon dioxide emissions. This is quite important. Why because companies know that by showing alongside a financial report showing the social and environmental impact report, their reputation will be enhanced. And a company with a high reputation According to research, a bring about better employees mortality employees. Also this company attracts more interesting investors, investors that are focused not only on the profitability, but focus also on social project. And this company also has a better brand image. And results are recognized by the media in a much more positive way.

Greg Voisen
Well, you're certainly a thought leader in this area. And you have created a book which gives people the foundations and the main principles here of the art of compassionate business. And to wrap up our podcast, I would like to ask you this, you know, throughout your journey, as an educator, consultant, writing books, doing all the things you've done, and the research and advocating for compassionate business, what's been the most surprising or impactful lesson that you've learned personally and professionally, from all this work and all your work of knowledge, you know, your whole library of knowledge for Bruno,

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
thank you very much for the question. The most important piece of information that I can convey here is that the most important resource in thesis is not technology is not artificial intelligence is not finance is not information, but is the human being. Because the human being is a major resource is a resource that help companies generate other resources, the human being, for example, an employee can help company generate business plans, innovative products, innovative services, and so on. So this means that the human being adds value continually. But the human being needs to be treated in a supportive and caring way. And the human being go beyond any business strategy and tactics, formulation, the title, the subtitle of my book is main principle for the human or the entity enterprises mean that these principles are timeless. There are perennial principles such as sustainability, compassion, care, and can be applied by small companies, big companies of any sector, will help companies foster long lasting, mutually beneficial relationship with the stakeholders.

Greg Voisen
Well, you have opened my eyes up to a way that businesses and for everybody listening can actually transform how they're operating their business, and supporting the culture to be more mindful of what you are saying, compassionate, compassion, love, understanding, all of these principles that should be being used at business, I just don't think are being used in business as regular, which is why one, you wrote this book, and two, you've had a TEDx talk, and three, you've got a website where people can reach out to you to learn more about what they can do to change. The key point is, is their willingness to change. And I think if something in your business is not going well, you should really look at what Bruno just had to say. Because the reality is, is what he's teaching is to help your business right site itself, from potentially some of the challenges that you face inside the business, simply because you're not paying attention to the people in the business. And I think that's the most important thing. Any final words on that before we end up the podcast?

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Thank you very much. If final words could be I want to invite the listener to ask themselves these questions. How can I be more generous and supportive with every single stakeholders? This question should be asked at the beginning of the day. And it's a very easy way to start becoming more compassionate, generated a positive cycle of ripple effects within the company or with the stakeholders.

Greg Voisen
Well, Bruno, I'm going to say Dr. Sick Nago. This is a great book, everybody go out and get a copy of this book. Also, go to the website where you can find out more. And that website is I'm going to give the address here in just one minute is humanorientedenterprise.com And we'll have a link to that as well. There you can find Bruno's bio you can find out more about what they do their approach their experience, consultancy service and tailor made workshops and also workshops that they provide. Bruno, thanks for spending a few minutes with us on Inside personal growth talking about your new book, and everything you have. Namaste to you.

Dr. Bruno Cignacco
Thank you very much, Greg.