Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from the desert near Palm Springs. For all of you who know this California territory is Karl, he even straight. He's a PhD. And he has a new book out. It's not exactly new, but it's close to new. And he's got another new one coming out that we're going to talk about too. But it's The How and Why: Taking Care of Business with the Enneagram. Karl, good day to you, how you doing?

R. Karl Hebenstreit
I'm doing great, Greg, how are you?

Greg Voisen
I'm awesome. And it's, you know, the Enneagram is one of these mystery things that just say, well, are people in business paying attention or not? Are they using it or not? In some places, it's been well adopted, adapted and adopted. In other places, people aren't so familiar with it. But we're going to date set our intention today, so that with your expertise in this area that we give them at least the information they need to do to consider it. And that's the best we can do. So, I want to let the listeners know something about your background, because this is one of your expertise. He's an executive coach, author, international speaker, human resource and organizational development professional with 25 plus years of global experience in biotech, healthcare, telecommunications, high tech, pharmaceutical and real estate services industries, internationally, motive motivated high energy systems, thinker, efficient, conscientious customer focus, action oriented, all those adjectives that you want to know he's got them all strengths include building relationships at all levels, fostering and integrating collaborative environments, and leading and motivating others to realize their full potential, which is why he's on inside personal growth. Well, it's a pleasure having you on and for those of you who want to learn more about Karl, go to www.perform p-e-r-f-o-r-m and function.com. That's his actual website. And you can also find him on LinkedIn. And we'll put a link to the LinkedIn for everybody as well. Well, you know, this book is interesting. It's got some great grass in it's got some great charts, it's got, it's really loaded, if people really want to know about the anagram. And it introduced it. Like I said, this actually introduces people to this in the business context. So can you explain how you first came across it? And its potential in organizational development? I not certain maybe it was one of your classes in the university?

R. Karl Hebenstreit
Believe it or not, it was yes, yeah, very astute observation or prediction there. So, it definitely I knew nothing about the Enneagram. And I would like to say that I came across the NT and I've been studying it since the last century, because it really was the last century when I started my PhD program at what was then called California School of Professional Psychology, and is now merged and called aligned International University. And they had an organizational psychology program. And up until that point, I was always working full time in human resources. And I was going to school at night. So, my masters and my PhD were at night going to school. And one class, it was just a class, it wasn't even an entire semester was a class that was part of a class that was going for the entire semester. I was very fortunate that the professor had this friend, whose name was Helen Palmer, we didn't know the students and didn't know anything about her. And Helen Palmer, if anyone has been looking at the history of how the Enneagram has really come into popular culture, if you want to look at it that way or into the popular psyche. Helen Palmer is really one of the first people that really started writing down the Enneagram because up until that point, it's an ancient system. It's an ancient model and framework, and people were only relating it to each other. They were only speaking into each other was only taught verbally. And so it was really, I don't want to say taboo but almost a taboo to write it down. And so up until that point, she was the first person to actually write down what people were learning from about from Enneagram teachers about the Enneagram and so she came into our class. And she introduced it. And just I'm sure that you're about an hour and a half long, maybe three hour long class, I think it was there were there were three hour long classes then. So I don't think she was there the full time. And she introduced us to it through one of the books from David Daniels, which was the essential Enneagram. And we had these nine paragraphs that we read, and we were supposed to select which one spoke most to us, which resonated most to us. And all of us were in there reading it and looking at it.

Greg Voisen
And it kind of lit your fire unsure, because it seems like you're the kind of person that would get into it. And I know, we've had a couple of other folks on the show speaking about the Enneagram. And it is a complex system. And it a lot of people are unfamiliar, only with the anagram. How would you describe its basic principles and its applicability to the business world? Because it's like, okay, I look at the anagram. And people might even put it in that area of like, well, are you doing my astrological reading? If you know what I mean, because I think some HR people would, would might say that right. And so kind of clarify it for us. So, people aren't out in left field.

R. Karl Hebenstreit
So most people are familiar with some of the other assessment tools that are out there. They're called personality assessments like Myers Briggs, or disc, or even leadership circle, or Thomas Killman, for conflict and all these different instruments that are out there. And the difference between the Enneagram and those instruments is that those instruments are about behaviors. And the Enneagram actually goes down to the level of motivation or driver. So if we understand ourselves, what it has been our driving force for our entire lives, and will continue to be our driving force for the rest of our lives, and then realize that not everyone else has the same motivation, and all the different situations that we're dealing with, then we start to really increase our emotional intelligence. Because we're doing the self awareness component, we're doing the empathy for how other people are looking at the world and perceiving the world and what's driving them. And then taking it even one more step further. What can we learn from that? How can we integrate that into our own? Well, just overall ability to perceive the world so I can we integrate into our own worldview. So that's the way I would describe it. It's really a framework that helps people identify for motivations, their own core motivations and those of their teams, their direct reports, their leaders, once we know that we now know how to better understand them and work better with them.

Greg Voisen
It is there it is in for my listeners, I'll make a notation because I want you to listen to if you want to go even deeper back in November of 2009. I did a podcast on the essential anagram with David Daniels. And that was a really fascinating interview I actually just looked it up and it it basically saying any as Greek for nine and Graham means that figure have something written. So the nine patterns is based in explicit perpetual filter and associated driving emotional energy. So do definitely you might people want to go familiarize themselves go all the way back to 2009. In my podcasts, he was one of my first guys. I don't know if he's even still alive anymore.

R. Karl Hebenstreit
No...

Greg Voisen
It's okay. Yeah, okay. You know, you mentioned the importance of sensemaking how does the Enneagram contribute to sense making within teams and organizations because that's really where we need it.

R. Karl Hebenstreit
So, first of all, it helps with sense making for yourself. It's understanding where you're coming from and what you're focusing on what your your drivers and areas in your perspective, what's that focus on. And then the reality is that there are eight other perspectives or lenses or worldviews who would help make sense of the situation to make real sense of the situation. Because if you think about it, when we are only looking at the world through our own lens, it's only a 40 degree sliver. And it's an it's a bias, it's the biased way of looking at the world through what's helped us in our past to be successful. And that's, that's what's ingrained our Enneagram type. So, sense making is improved, because now you're looking at the world through these eight other lenses as well, you're, you're taking off the one lens that you normally use, and you're putting on a different lens and a different one, and then the other one, another one. So that was that's what helps you get a better understanding of what's really going on through all these different lenses and perspectives. So when we do that for ourselves, and then we also leverage our team members who may have different perspectives, we are really getting a better view and sense of the world and making better sense of the world because we're understanding it better.

Greg Voisen
And it is, it does give people that ability to look at it from a new perspective, and to see personalities that you're dealing with inside of these organizations in a new way, so that you can adjust the way in which you communicate the way in which you communicate better. Look, you were in HR all those years, the key is communications, highly effective communications, and communications, where you are sensitive to someone else's feelings in the way in which they're coming from. So that's recruitment.

R. Karl Hebenstreit
And that's that it's also about inclusivity. I mean, we're talking a lot about diversity, inclusion, equity justice right now. And this is really a tool to help drive that agreed that because exactly what you're saying, we are acknowledging we are inviting, we are seeing the value of these other perspectives that are equally as valuable as our own and inviting them and bringing them in.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's it's really an interesting study. And I think, you know, I had Lawrence Hillman on here, and archetypes at work. And again, for all of my listeners, another great podcast in 2020, done with the Lawrence, he is the son of the famous Hillman psychologist. And, you know, when you really look at archetypes, and you look at the Enneagram, you really get the picture, the picture. And in recruitment, engagement and retention. They're all critical elements of HR that you've worked in. Can you elaborate on how the Enneagram types can enhance the process? Because today, more than ever, we're seeing greater levels of turnover. We're seeing highest levels of dissatisfaction in the workplace. We're seeing all kinds of things we say for generations working in one business here today, generational gap differences, communication differences. So tell us how this Enneagram across all of these areas could help somebody really realize what's going on?

R. Karl Hebenstreit
Yeah, so it's great that you bring up the point about generational differences. And the Enneagram is the great equalizer, because regardless of generations, we'd still see these nine Enneagram types of play. It's it's generation agnostic, it's it's the it's really the human condition, the Enneagram really is there for the human condition, regardless of any diversity, other diversity that you may have generation, ethnic race, whatever. The so when I was first introduced to it, as we talked about in that earlier story, that's what hit me that what hit me was that, wow, we are not using the insights and the knowledge that we can get from the Enneagram to really help attract, retain and motivate, engage every single person. That's an organization. In fact, our traditional processes, programs, incentives, reward systems are really only geared towards our types, three, sevens and eights. And that's where we reward to become leaders in organizations. So when I started seeing that, I was thinking Hold on a second. This is how we can help organizations in becoming better becoming more inclusive becoming able to really pull out these perspectives that are missing him to give them voice rather than just these couples that we just keep focusing on. And so that's where I decided to do my PhD thesis on this.

Greg Voisen
So well you did And I'm going to show this I don't think my listeners can actually see this. But in chapter 11, we just talked about team building, right? You actually took the nine types of the anagram and correlated them to all of these other areas here, like people are talking about disc, the MBTI, all of these things. And I think it's really fascinating how you find, I think I'm an ENFP, or E and F, whatever I am, I don't even remember what it is. But my point is, your

R. Karl Hebenstreit
J for the last one.

Greg Voisen
Yes. So, but my point is, is that if people really want to take a deep dive into this, right, look, I'm gonna hold this book up again, definitely go get Karl's book. Because if you're in HR, or you're somebody who's trying to figure out the personality of people, this is going to help you. The other thing is, it helps in decision making and innovation. So decision making in innovation are really quite challenging. That's a huge area today, if you're not innovating, you're probably dying. Your book suggests that the Enneagram provides a natural inclusive framework for empowerment at all levels. Right? So the key here would be Hey, I got a company that has to innovate. How so? How do I how does that work?

R. Karl Hebenstreit
So a lot of companies struggle with how do we empower employees, and it really comes down to their culture, if their culture is disempowering them, how can we create a culture that really is open to everyone's perspectives, and allowing people to experiment and innovate without any fear that if they fail, that something bad is going to happen to them. And so many times it does, even if it happened many, many years ago to one person, that story is going to be repeated. And that's going to be there as an artifact and continuation for the rest of that cultures, company sales history. So it's really important that the leaders create this culture of openness and, and inclusion. Where what I've found is when I take the nine different Enneagram styles, and I create different questions around them to say, Well, what's going to be most relevant to your company, your organization and its culture, and helping to really empower your employees to take responsibility and not fear that if anything goes wrong, that you're going to have their back. So that's, that's the critical component that if anything does go wrong, and and things will go wrong, that's the whole point of innovation, we're experimenting, we're learning. And if something goes wrong, then we learn from that, and we reapply that into the future and come up with an even better product. So if we can provide this rubric of questions, and if they want to use all nine questions, that's great if they only want to select a couple of them, because that's really supports the culture of the organization, that's wonderful. If they just give carte blanche to the employees to say, as long as you make sure that you're addressing five out of these nine, that's great. But it's if you look at it from the perspective of what's the right thing to do in this situation, according to our values, our organization's values, our mission, our direction that we're going in, and then that the type one right, that's type one the energy around that the type two energy we around, what's the impact on our stakeholders out? Is it helping with connections or relationships? Is it helping to connect? Or is it detracting from that? The type three energy we're at? What about our metrics, our goals? How is this helping us to achieve our metrics and our goals? What about our brand and our reputation? How is that helping to continue that? So that's all the three insights, the type four would be about uniqueness? How do we create this unique maybe it's a niche, maybe it's a, maybe you can get a patent from it, maybe you can make it beautiful, all the force stuff around around that energy, the type five would be all about, let's look at this objectively, what's there? Is there evidence? Is there data? Is there research that's been done on this? Should this succeed? If we go forward with it? Type six then brings in well, what happens if it doesn't succeed? What's our backup plan? What's our contingency plan? How do we make sure that we will succeed? Like taking into those things into account as well? For Type seven? It's, well think about think big. What's the vision? How is this going to help us grow? How is this going to help us expand? How's it gonna help us go into other areas? Like be fun and exciting? The type eight is about your own purview and your scope of authority? Do you have the scope of authority to do this? Should someone else be doing this? Should you be working with someone else to do this? Who can execute this to make this happen? And type nine is how does this fit within the whole ecosystem? How does this all make sense? So if people are considering all nine of those perspectives and questions, and thinking about those in depth, they will definitely make the right decision number one, and number two, that's going to help them be more empowered and to note that they're making the right decision that they thought about things. And then if something still goes wrong, even though they've made, they've thought through this, in this very deliberate way that their leaders will have their backs?

Greg Voisen
Well, what I do know is you've done this all across the United States, and have you done it globally around the world, yeah. And the world. And you've gone into companies and use this Enneagram, to help people actually create better communications become more innovative, build better teams, stronger teams, all of the things that they want to do. And I'm going to, again, perform and function is where you want to go to we'll put a link up to that so that you can reach out and talk with Karl, I mean, I'd be more than happy to speak with you. We want to bring him into your company to do something. So you know, I said about five minutes ago, communications of backbone in your organization, you tie communication styles, to the Intagram type? How does understanding this foster better? You just went through all nine to foster better communications within teams? Because I'm sure there are people, team leaders listening to this podcast or HR executives that listen to this podcast, and they're saying, Hey, I've never used the Enneagram. Yeah.

R. Karl Hebenstreit
So whenever we communicate, people are focusing on different things. In the same communication, someone can be, could read the same paragraph, the same chapter, the same whatever, what people are gonna be focusing on different things in that communication. And then type ones focus is going to be focused on how does this align Is this the right thing to do is is the does it align with my values. So again, you can go through the whole nine different energies, and you can see where the focus is, the type one might be focusing on what's the there's, there's an error here, something doesn't align, right? It's not the there's a grammatical error, there's a, you know, there used the wrong word, they whatever it is, that's going to be something that's going to, that's really going to stick for the type one, and maybe even distract from the message. So if you have a message that is not perfectly communicated with grammar, or with with spelling, or if it's written, then that's going to be a distractor. And it's totally going to be distracted with type one, if it doesn't align with their own thinking or their own values. So if it's shown that there's a value statement to it, the alignment of their values, that's gonna be what's important to them. So each of the types is going to be focused on something else. Yeah. And some of the types are also going to be more geared towards No, I don't want the full details, just give me the high level overview, like our threes or sevens. And our eights are going to want that high level overview. Give me the executive summary. The fives, and the sixes might want more details, the ones might want some more detail too, because they're going to be focused on let's look at the congruence here. How is this going to

Greg Voisen
be you do does in the anagram? Is there labels for those like in archetypes, because they'll call them? The the. So for instance, the problem solver, the you know, there's all kinds of types. So what are the nine types, and what is the label that's associated with the one through the nine, I think people might like to know that because it's like, okay, I got a number in my head. But now if you give me a descriptor, I can really have some power behind this. So

R. Karl Hebenstreit
different schools are giving different names or labels or, or titles to these different types. So the one is usually known as the perfectionist or the reformer, or the strict perfectionist, and they're focused on doing the right thing. The type to the type, by the way, doing the right thing according to their own values, there are really a universal set of values. So if you have two different type ones that are working together, but they're looking at the world through different value structures, they're not going to get along, right, because they're each going to believe that they're doing the right thing according to their own sense of values. The Type Two is looked at as the helper or giver or the compassionate and helper, and they are geared towards the needs of others, helping others so they will achieve their worth by by being helpful to others and feeling loved by the accolades that they receive, and the thanks and appreciation that they receive for that help. The type three is all about goals. So they are the achievers. They are performers, and they're all about making sure that they get the goal and that they be that goal feeds into an image or a brand that they have of being the best at something. So that's the important goal for them the important focus for them. The type fours are romantics are artists. They're very empathic they they feel all the energy they feel other people's feelings, they feel their own feelings, and they are all about being unique, special, different and all authentic. So they're striving to authentic authenticity and being understood. That type. So those are our heart types, if you will look at that were feeling types or types twos or threes, or four or, or helpers givers are performers, achievers and our, our artists. So then we move into the thinking styles, which are five, six and seven are fives are observers or analysts, they're very much about being objective objectively looking to see all the different data that's out there and making it make sense, coming up with sense making models so they can predict what may happen. So they don't look foolish, and they think that they're prepared. Our sixes are our loyal skeptics, and they look at the world or process it through a lens of danger. They're looking at it and saying, what's the possible danger that can happen here? How can I prepare for it? How can I make sure that I will be successful if this dangerous thing happens? So they're looking at it from this this backup plan, contingency plan scenario planning. So that's what they're they're doing. And they want to be safe and secure and comfortable. Always looking for they're trying to they're when they want to basically be part of this tribe for safety. Our sevens are the opposite of the sixes, they're looking at things through a positive spin. What's the best case scenario? What's the vision? What are the connections that we can make? What are the opportunities we can take advantage of. So those are our visionaries, our epicures are adventurers. Then we move into the action styles, the eights, the nines, and the ones. So our type eight really are boss protectors, directors, generals, challengers, you can use that type of archetype archetype for them. And they're all about power control authority, justice, really protective of their people their circle, and really great at execution throughout, especially when brothers are type nines are mediators or peacekeepers, they're really good about seeing the whole picture, seeing how everything fits together, everything has equal value. And they just want to keep the peace. So that's what

Greg Voisen
we're all in one sense, what I understand as you've gone through the great descriptions of these, and actually put labels on them. We're not one of any one of them, we've got all these different personality types within us. That's not to say that we're schizophrenic, it's just to say that, that we have all of these within us, it's just when we call on them and how it shows up. And where it shows us. Right. So okay, so we have

R. Karl Hebenstreit
favorites, we have defaults, we have ones that are easier for us to access than others, right, we will have our core type, which tends to be our default. And that's the style that we're comfortable with, because it has helped us in the past. And I want to go back, we use the term labels, or titles, descriptors feel like oh, no, you're gonna put me in a box by putting in this label. But the reality is, you're already in this box, you've put yourself in this box. Yeah. So by realizing what box you're already in, and the other people already seeing and perceiving you as this, you're actually breaking out of that box. Because just like you're saying, we have all these nine energies accessible to us. And you're making, you're freeing yourself to be able to access the other eight styles that you're not as used to, or as comfortable accessing, because you're not focusing on those. So we do have access to all nine types, some of them are going to be much easier to access for us to access than others. And the learning is how can we access all nine of them in the appropriate situation?

Greg Voisen
So again, get this book, because this is the one that's going to tell you how to use this and reach out to Karl. Well, you know, look, one of the things that goes on inside of organizations, more than anything is change. And change management is often not just resisted by the organization, but obviously the organization is the people. And the people are the ones that resist change the most people don't like it. They rather just say status quo, because this is upsetting my applecart and I don't want to do it. Right. So your book suggests using the Intagram to navigate change? Yeah. Can you give an example of this and where you possibly used it as a way where you had a successful outcome as a result of this story? Yeah.

R. Karl Hebenstreit
So I consult with clients who go through, as you said, Change is the only constant right now it's everywhere. And organizations are constantly changing their structure to better align with client and stakeholder needs and customer needs. So just recently, there was an example where A major change was happening, organizational structural change and name change with the organization, leadership changes were going on. And I reminded the leaders about making sure that in their communications, because communication is talking about communication earlier, but communication is the key to helping people understand the concept of why is this change happening. And let's focus on what's important that you're, you're interested in finding out. So each of the Enneagram types is again, focused on something different, when something when something's happening, something's changing, each type is going to approach it differently, respond to it differently, be interested in different aspects of it, to see how it's going to work for them. So our we talked about our RS type sevens, which are epicures, or adventures, they're going to be interested in like, what you doors is this opening? Right? So they're gonna be a change, like, let's see what else I can do, like, exciting stuff is happening now. So boring thing that, you know, not that it's boring, but it's, it's known. So let's Well, I

Greg Voisen
think, I think look entrepreneurs in general, the founders of these companies, when you say this, it really just lit up a light bulb. You know, I've been a serial entrepreneur. And I'm curious, I'm always curious, I wouldn't do a podcast show like I'm doing right now in the 1100 Plus podcast, if I wasn't curious about what people are writing about, and how it can help other people, right. And I think that is for us, people like us, we say, Yeah, bring it on, you know, we we we want to see the change, we want to see the growth, we we want to embrace it, we want to see what will happen. And we'd like that, right? i And I so many people that I consult with are that way. But then there's these other business people that you wonder how they ever gotten business, because they're not curious at all. They just want to stay the course they don't want to change. You don't see them really growing their business that much. They're just stagnating. But this tool, I will tell everybody out there is very, very powerful, Karl, and I think that it's a great thing. Now, accountability in the workplace is another significant challenge. We are faced with it all the all the time. And you discuss this are a CI matrix and the accountability through the Intagram lens. Could you basically share a practical tip for leaders to enhance accountability using the Enneagram? Yeah,

R. Karl Hebenstreit
so RACI is an old tried and true proven methodology in project management and stands for responsible, accountable, consulted and informed sometimes they also add some extra, some extra letters like omitted, like explicitly know this person does not need to know anything about this at this point, they bring them in later, but there's no reason to get them involved at this point. Or support, maybe an add an s for support, this person is going to support someone, this person may be responsible for it, but the s person the support person will be supporting them in doing that. So it's just a way to be very explicit around the expectations. And by the way, that's probably a foreboding or joking about the explicit expectations book that's also coming out soon. But the wait to actually help people be clear about what's expected of them at each step of the way. Is it's really important for all the types for all the Enneagram types to know what what are the parameters? What are the guardrails? What are the expectations? What can they do? What can't they do? What are they expected to do? What's what's what are their? What is their performance going to be rated on? Right through the in this process flow or in this program, or in this? Whatever it is that you are, you're spelling out in the RACI matrix. So that's a way to make sure that clarity is is created. So that people are all on the same page about what the expectations are for each type, regardless of your time.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it gets really messy. And you know, being a consultant inside of businesses, I still do it today. You find this, Hey, I've got a job description. Well, there's actually a lot of scope creep and all of our job descriptions, which then turn out to be, well, no, you're really expected to do this and that and this other thing. And then when you add the accountability to top of it, what happens to people is they're like, hey, you've got me stretched so thin and so far, I can hardly be accountable to anybody because you've added all these additional elements to the role that I have. And that's not what I really signed up for. Can we rejigger my job description i so that I can be accountable. And I think it's okay for people to ask HR of that as well. It's like, you know, it, I know it's a sensitive area, because the company believes they're getting more resources out of this person for the same amount of money, but at the same time, it's, it's really not that good. I know, multitasking just doesn't work. You can't be efficient. You know, and if you keep if you keep missing deadlines, it's because you're being distracted by either something that you're supposed to be doing over here that you didn't get done over there. Make sense? Yes.

R. Karl Hebenstreit
And and I'm going to go back to Everything old is new again. When I worked at Genentech, right before I started my own consulting company, it was fascinating to me to see how everyone was so excited about another matrix that we didn't discuss, but it's in the book as well. And it's, it's the one about So Stephen Covey is credited with creating it, because it's all about the importance and urgency of something. So to wrap things into, Is it urgent and important? Is it less urgent and important? Is it not important and urgent are enough so you plotters

Greg Voisen
also that that Eisenhower matrix?

R. Karl Hebenstreit
That's what it was created originally was rather than Eisenhower had this matrix and then Stephen Covey.

Greg Voisen
He borrowed it,

R. Karl Hebenstreit
made it more popular popularized it, how's that

Greg Voisen
is the seven habits of highly effective people it was in that book for all of you that are interested is because Stephen, Mr. Covey has been on the show. So go check out one of those podcasts if you want to listen to it. Exactly.

R. Karl Hebenstreit
So that's made a resurgence. Because it's true. And it's proven. It's you keep having scope creep, as you've mentioned, your job description? Yeah, they can, that's going to change. Things change all the time, organizational expectations change. However, your goals, which are based on your job description, that's what you'd probably have more direct control over than changing your job description. So you can have conversations with your manager, your leader and saying, Yeah, you've asked me to do these, these 30 things are now my top priority. But

Greg Voisen
but everybody seems to always in this is just a perception be caught in the important and urgent, not the, um, the versus the important and non urgent, right, which is really your thinking time, that's your time where you're going to progress. That's the time where you block time out on your calendar. That's a time where you innovate and you create something new. But we seem to all be chasing our acids, most of the time in that quadrant that really, we're supposed to be spending less time.

R. Karl Hebenstreit
Right. And that is one of the things by the way that I have recommended with my coaching clients is how do you create the strategic thinking time that you need to have to make sure that you're focusing on the right things? Right. So how do you block that time off on your calendar? Is it right for your workday? Is it after your workday? Is it on your drive in? Is it on your on your drive that whatever on your commute, whatever that may be? So how do you create that as well?

Greg Voisen
I personally think just from somebody who's had to juggle a calendar all my life like you as well, we all do. So I'm not speaking. But I know this is gonna sound so trite to so many people. But no is probably one of the most powerful words we could say. It's like, No, I don't have time for that today. No, I can't do that. Because otherwise, you're never going to have time for any of this stuff. Yes, you're literally going to be drawn by this person, that person, this person, that person, that person, whatever, and you won't get the things that you have valued as important done. And that brings me to this. Lastly, the book touches on the Intagram as a tool for diversity, equality and inclusion, work inclusion. How can organizations practically implement this for a more I'm going to call it inclusive culture because, you know, that is a important topic these days. And we're talking about diversity. That means every race, every nationality, every age difference gaps in you know, whether I'm a boomer or I'm a Gen XOR, or a Y or Z, you know, all of that's important. So how do we create in use the Intagram to have more inclusion across all of these matrices?

R. Karl Hebenstreit
That's a great question and I I'm gonna go back to earlier when I said this The great equalizer. It's the great equalizer because it's it's the most interesting and comprehensive way of looking at diversity because it's diversity of perspective. So if we, if we have, if we've gone to a certain school, and every single race, sexual orientation, heritage, gender, every every type of diversity was at that school, every single person thinks exactly the same way. Do we have diversity? Nope. Do we have? Do we have diverse ways of thinking because they're all thinking exactly the same way, no groupthink. Right. Now, if we're focusing on hiring, for diversity of perspective, regardless of what the person looks like, or what their heritage is, or anything that we have, that we consider the traditional diversity elements, right, we are automatically eliminating our bias. Because we're looking at thinking styles we're looking at, we're getting this diversity of perspective, it's really, truly going to give us the ability to access every single perspective in the world. And in the process, make sure that we have a diverse background of Heritage's that we're joining in as well. So we're eliminating our biases, we're truly eliminating our biases and trying to make sure that we're well, first of all, identifying what our biases is, because if anything, what our own four type is, and then not really integrating the other eight styles, then we're now we see what our own bias is. So how do we expand and open up our minds, to the diversity of perspective, and then make sure that we have that whole diverse population that we're also bringing in mirroring the diversity of our stakeholders, our clients, our customers. So doing that, and while

Greg Voisen
you're actually using the Enneagram, to look at people, as people, as much as that may sound like stupid instead of, hey, this person is trans or this person is black, or this person is Asian, or this person is that if you took all of those labels away and said, Here's what they are as people, right? Again, now, what I just said, maybe sounds, add, I made it sound easy, it's not. Because I do know that those biases exist, right? But the Enneagram will allow you to look at the person more as a person and take the label away from them, whether they're, you know, bisexual, homosexual, black, whatever, it doesn't matter doesn't, it doesn't matter, you need to remove that label. And I, I want to thank you for bringing that out. Because that's, you know, look, this book, people can go get it. And they literally can work with this, taking care of business with the INIA gram, and they're literally going to see that things are going to shift for them. And you've opened my eyes to ways that can happen. And I want to thank you for being on the show and spending time with me and our listeners, and having an opportunity to explore a new technique that would open up energy with inside of an organization, no, we talk about we want to raise our level of consciousness, the Enneagram is going to allow you to raise your level of consciousness. And also, I'm speaking from a spiritual side, it's going to move this whole vibratory kind of attunement. At what level do you vibrate as a person? You know, what are what are you drawing to you? What are you resisting? When you start to look at energy, energy is a big factor in this, right. And there's nothing mysterious about that. It's true. I've walked into boardrooms or businesses, and the energy of the whole business is just like, wow, it's like a black box. And you're like, how do people even work in this environment? Right? Because it is caustic and negative. And, you know, and then when you start to interview the people, you find out oh, my god, Tom did this and Mary did that. And it's, you know, it's just as big kind of pardon me cesspool of complaints and issues and you know, and you need to come in and be a light this book and Karl could be the light that will actually turn on and transform your company. So go to perform and function.com look Karl up, get his book, and he's got a new book coming out. So I'm gonna give you an operator Do you need a plug? The title of the new book because it doesn't come out till June 17. But we'll have Karl back on inside personal growth June 19. You said his birthday. What's the title of that book, Karl?

R. Karl Hebenstreit
It's called explicit expectations, explicit expectations, explicit expectations, The Essential Guide and toolkit of management fundamentals. So it's everything that you're expected to know as a manager, but no one ever told you. Well,

Greg Voisen
I love it explicit expectations for everyone. We'll have Karl back on inside personal growth to talk about the new book. I can't wait Karl, thanks for spending some time with us today. Just exposing us to the Enneagram again and again for my listeners. We'll put links up to the other Enneagram interviews that we have as well. So if you want to take a really really deep dive and learn more about this, you got Karl you got David, you got all these other people that have been on inside personal growth. Pleasure having you gone namaste to you have a blessed rest of your day.

R. Karl Hebenstreit
You too. Take care.

Greg Voisen
You too.