Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And I want to thank all my listeners who listened from around the world. They all know me but they don't know the three of you. So by way of introduction, good evening to a few of you, good early evening. And good midday to one of you, Joni on the East Coast. Emanuel is joining us from Spain. And Phil, you're joining us from England. And I'm so I'm going to let them know a tad bit about you. Dr. Joni Carley, in the upper left hand corner here is the author of the Alchemy of Power Plies, her expertise in values driven leadership and cultural development in the private sector. And the United Nations, where she advises include vice chair of the coalition of global citizenship in 2030. Emanuel is an entrepreneur, writer, philosopher, philanthropist and activist for social transformation. He began his adult life by traveling the world on a decade long quest for his spiritual purpose. Before beginning his professional career as an editor, writer for Reader's Digest, I didn't know that. Upon discovering his right livelihood in the realm of cultural exchange, he founded and managed numerous exchange organizations in Spain, US and UK. And he's got a very long bio and for Joni, you would go to jonicarley.com to learn more about l-e-y sorry, that's what it says but that's not what I said. And for Emanuel, it's e-m-a-n-u-e-l-k-u-n-t-z-e-l-m-a-n, Kuntzelman, am I right? Okay, and Phil, last but not least, who put this whole podcast together, has near 20 years of experience working with organizations and leadership transformation. I best know him through Richard Barrett's work, the Barrett’s value center, and international organizations currently working through as a consulting network in over 90 countries. He says now he's semi-retired. I don't actually see that, Phil and works for BVC as a senior cultural transformation advisor, but I best known him and if you want to actually learn more about Phil, not only this book, but his other book is Amcara. Did I say that right? a-m-c-a-r-a, Amcara, okay.

Phil Clothier
Yeah, a-m-c-a-r-a dot l-i-f-e.

Greg Voisen
dot l-i-f-e where you can find out more about Phil there. And today, we're going to be speaking about the holomovement, embrace our collective purpose to unite humanity. And Manuel, you're the leader of the charge heart that put this together. They got all these people to write pieces. And I think that's where maybe let's start there. Each of you and a round robin, starting with Joni share a brief overview of Holomovement. And really what inspired you to contribute to the book because each one of the chapters in this book for my listeners, has different contributors. And I guess because of your Reader's Digest background, he did the Reader's Digest version.

Emanuel Kuntzelman
Hope it's a little better than that.

Greg Voisen
No, it's way it's much better. But you know, something for a lot of listeners, the Reader's Digest version is what they want. So

Joni Carley
You know, it's true, because it's the it's a fabulous blend, because one of the problems when you pick up a book like this, it gets so deep and so hard, that it's hard to go through. But this one doesn't. This one, you really get that deep, good powerful punch. And then you're on to the next, next one, and then the next one. And so it's always fresh, and the chapters are relatively short. So you get so much in each chapter, but you don't get bogged down.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. And Emanuel for you, brief overview of Holomovement, we said something about David Bohm, I think many of the listeners aren't going to know. So maybe this is an opportune time for you to talk about the whole Holomovement. Also, what kind of inspired you to want to go to all this work to put this book together?

Emanuel Kuntzelman
Yeah, well, thank you, Greg. Actually, this book goes back about 50 years. I was inspired when I was in a freshman in college by a sociological, socio Energy Professor pointed out the many challenges of our times, climate change overpopulation, build up environments, inequalities etc. and presented to us as young students is the challenge of our lifetime. And so I set out on a life journey to do what I could do to contribute to some kind of solution to this meta crisis we are living in. And early on as a sociology student, it occurred to me that there needed to be a movement of movements, a network that connected all of the many organizations the world over hundreds of 1000s of nonprofits, working together with a similar cause that haven't really combined forces. So I conceived of an idea to try and bring this together under one name and one resource to make efficiencies and try and move forward and taking action to getting something done. So it really comes from an inspiration from many years ago, and never knew quite how to frame it or what to call it, until I read a book by David Bohm 1984. I read the book, this book was published in 1980. It's called the wholeness and the implicate order. And in that book, I first came across the term holomovement, which was called coined by David Boehm, he's an American physicist. He was a protege of Einstein, back in the 1950s, and has written some of the foremost texts on quantum physics. And today, his theory of quantum physics has gone mainstream. The Nobel Prize in Physics last year was given to three physicists who spent their lives proving the theory of nonlocality, which is really fundamental for Beaumes theory to be applicable. So, bomb died back in 1994. But his truth and his understanding of the nature of the universe in quantum physics is finally being vindicated and going mainstream, and the term holomovement came from him. And it's really the unbounded flow of oneness between an implicit order Divine Source, explicate order, the reality we experience. And he explains that they are really all one, there's just one flow between them, gathering information from the implicate expressing it in the X bucket, and moving back and forth. So it seems like a beautiful explanation of the universe, and a nice single word term for a grand social movement to unite humanity.

Greg Voisen
Well, a very ambitious movement to take on a book like this. And I want to commend you Emanuel for you one, number one, I just hearing about your history, this has been something that's been part of your DNA forever. And you know, when you find a purpose in life, and you continue on with it, like what you're doing, I just want to commend you on that. And Phil, you as well. I mean, I've known you for a long time through Richard Barrett. And maybe an appropriate question would be the concept around collective purpose is kind of a central theme. And we were just talking about a manuals purpose. You know, he found it a long time ago. And he's stuck with it. And if you would, can you explain what it means and why it's important for uniting humanity? If there's anybody out there through your website and the work that I've seen you done? Also your true. I don't know how to call it a charge for the environment these days, to actually look at what's happening with that Emanuel just talked about our global warming problem, our constant issues that we're facing worldwide. Can you address it?

Phil Clothier
Yes, I can. So to say a little bit about the background and how I got here. Firstly, my understanding of holomovement and Holon. So Holon means whole part. So very briefly, my, my foot is a whole foot, but it's a whole part of my body. My toe is a whole toe, but it's a whole part of my foot. And so when you look at things, when you have that basic understanding that everything is a whole part of everything, we are all connected. And that's kind of that's the non-quantum way of saying it and making it really simple. But I, I came to this I was already in the field of organizational transformation and leadership development, but something I had a burnout a few years ago and went into a deep mental decline. And as I was arising healing from that this whole field of the healing of humanity started arising within me. And, and I'm now at a point of understanding like what's the collective social purpose, the collective social purposes, whether you are a corporation like Walmart or Mercedes, or whether you're a government like the Icelandic government or the Zimbabwe government, or whether you're an NGO, like the Red Cross, or whatever organization or entity, you belong to our collective purposes, we are in the business of creating sustainability and wellbeing on planet earth so that we can have wellbeing for all life. And our expression of that is making cars or our expression of that is in the retail industry, our expression of that is running this country. So the collective purpose for all humanity at the moment must be the healing, transformation on well-being of all life on planet Earth. And not everybody knows that or would express that in quite that way yet. But that's, that's where we're getting to, and the, the hundreds of 1000s, maybe millions of organizations that are working, consciously working towards this exist within the hollow movement, whether they know it or not,

Greg Voisen
You know, it's interesting, you, each of you is reflect on that, I just got Seth Godin carbon Almanac, okay. And many of you might know, you know, Seth Godin, for not being somebody that was so sensitive to the environment, trying to go out and, and literally, cry, create, buy, buy, buy more and more and more and more and more and more. And he had this huge epiphany, as somebody who's authored 26 books, and, you know, everybody knows who he is that he was going to dedicate the rest of his life toward solving this global warming issue, right. And I thought it was just quite interesting, because here's somebody who did so much to plough riff proliferate, the purchasing of we're not enough, you need more advertising business, let's get more, let's buy more, let's have more, let's do whatever. And he took a big shift. And I'm seeing a lot of that happening to each of you. You know, I'm sitting here interviewing authors who've now kind of shifted, and they're, they're trying to kind of be part of this movement, this whole movement. And with that said, each of you brings a unique perspective and expertise to the book. And Joni and Phil, your chapter was on values? And how did your individual backgrounds kind of contribute to shaping the content of the message that's out there in the book? And so maybe we should start here with Joni and Phil, does that work?

Joni Carley
So I got my doctor at a Doctor of Ministry and the reinvention of work with a dissertation called noble seed royal soil. So the question that's been burning in my heart for a long time is, if every sentient being is a noble seed, how do we create the personal and a global soil to bring every seed to its fullest fruition? And what I know about the fruiting of the human spirit, is it always wants to express it wants to expand, it wants to evolve into greater joy into higher consciousness into deeper connection and understanding with one another with the greater good with a with a greater ISness, that that is beyond words. And so that human drive is something that always compelled me to look at, what are the conditions that support that. And there's so much talk about change. And, and I work at the United Nations, I do a lot of work in that space, it's been a very dedicated space for my whole life. And yet, nothing that I was seeing was really making a difference, in fact, and I even ran a philanthropic foundation for a while. And what I realized was a lot of funding was just putting fingers in the dike. And then you'd have a leak over here, you'd plug it and then you'd have a leak over here, and you'd plug it and then you have a leak over. But all that did was perpetuate a bad paradigm. And so, you know, you might put food in hungry kids mouths, and that's a good thing. I'm not arguing against that. But at the same time, if we don't look at this larger, more paradigmatic shift, where we have a culture that that honors, the Unity and our diversity, that honors the diversity, that that each person has a different purpose and how it may not even be connected to purpose. And yet still there is that human spirit to live and to thrive and to be better and to do more. And so how do we nurture that? Well, we need a very different ground, we need different soil, that's the royal soil. We need different soil to grow that in the hollow movement, and hollow movers and hollow moving which I like using the verbs that the Other using it as a verb because it is an active process. It's not a thing. It's something that's ongoing. And whether you ever heard of hollow movement or not many of you who would be tuned into something like this are already holo movers. Because we're there's a, there's a huge movement going this way. And so my work is really about supporting that movement, growing the soil and the holomovement, the hollow work, and this book, sets a framework for that set some real mesh work that we can start to organize from within and sets parameters.

Greg Voisen
Well, something that you were saying just then, and I see it in each of you, right, and let me just use some of my background and spirituality, here to bring this up, is there's been an awakening in your souls, each of you now Emanuel, way back, when had this awakening and continued on, you know, that so many of my listeners are seeking, right, this show has been on the air for 17 years. And it has a big bent on spirituality, but it also has a big bent in business. So I know a lot of people don't think spirituality and Business Connect, but they do I remember going to conferences in San Francisco, almost 1516 years ago, was called spirituality and business. And we were talking about the people that made Clif Bars and all those kinds of people that were involved in this movement. And I do believe that business plays a big part in this and I think businesses are awakening, at a soul level, at least many of them, would any of you like to kind of comment about your own soul awakening your own spiritual movement, and how you see this happening with Inside Business. We'll start with, let's start with a manual, and then we'll go to Phil.

Emanuel Kuntzelman
Thank you, Greg. Well, you, you're absolutely right. There's no separation between spirituality and business, between spirit and physics, it's the whole movement would say it is all one, it all comes from the same source. And it's just different degrees of frequency and molecular bonding that really separates the difference between our consciousness and the computer in front of us, but it is all one. And particularly in the business world, I think this will be the driving force of the future, that's really going to turn things around, where business learns that its constituents, its consumers, and its clients are going to demand a more serious spiritual component to the business model, that buying mass produced widgets, for a cheap price isn't what it's about. And every time we make a purchase, or sign up for a service, it's a conscious choice. And we want to go with a corporation that's doing it consciously with the sustainable goals behind it with fair treatment of its employees, and all the long list of many things that are available to conscious business. And that's becoming more of a reality, as people wake up. So there's two driving forces, the increased consciousness of business entrepreneurs, as well as the general public make learning to make the right choice. And finally, we can each make a choice to go into business for ourselves that contributes to the good of the whole. This is why I've spent 40 years working with cultural exchange programs, because I feel like it's the one activity that I found that really does change people's lives and helps them broaden their cultural perspectives and gain a more holistic worldview. So I encourage everyone to find a business a work activity that coincides with their inner spirit, and does the most good possible, as the Buddhists would call it, perhaps right action, right livelihood, do something that has meaning and purpose, and in your individual way can give back the most What the world needs. Very well said. And

Greg Voisen
Phil, I want to switch to you because you mentioned just 10 minutes ago that you went through burnout. And one of the things we're seeing today in corporate America and I just received an email from HubSpot, and it says we're gonna let our employees off for a whole week, because they're burning out. Now, interestingly, you know, you said you went through a deep burnout and then went into some depression. And I think this is important for, you know, we're talking about real things now that are occurring, not just with Phil, but that are occurring worldwide everywhere that are awakening people. I think COVID accelerated the process. And whether you liked it or not, it was certainly a big wake up call. For everybody feel from your personal experience your spirit bring spirit to business. I know you worked with Richard Barrett for years and years, you guys were all about values, you know, values driven, speak with the listeners, if you would about how you particularly in your in your own story, because each of you has a story we could spend an hour on aren't just as podcast that, that you think the listeners out there today would relate with this book, the whole movement, and how you can bring this interconnectedness.

Phil Clothier
So one story, which I feel represents all of that is some work I did with a bank in Latvia. So I had a call from the president of a bank in Latvia, who said he wanted to use the barrack methodology to transform his organization. And actually, when I met him, the first thing he said is the transformation of this bank is about love. And it's about bringing love here. So I knew that we had found an amazing foundation to start with. And I worked with him and his executive team and the whole bank over the course of three years. And we saw a profound transformation. And the owner of the bank said, how have you shifted financial performance, customer satisfaction, employee engagement, all of these things, so powerfully turned out the owner of the bank was the government. And the government then said, can we do this at a scale of a nation. And in 2007, we ran the first national values assessment with the Latvian government and parliament to help the government and politicians understand the values of the people. And it was a truly remarkable process. And so this is the principle that I think that works, that when you have one human being that says, I'm going to figure out what's inside of me and transform what's inside of my heart, then that has a positive impact on the organization that they're there with, or they're leading. And then when that positive impact grows to a big enough kind of scale, then they have miracles can be produced out at the societal level as well. But frankly, if our ambitions are to achieve the sustainable development goals and heaven on earth, then our number one job is to figure out what's inside of our own hearts and our own minds and get and continue to practice some level of something inside that brings us to a level of peace, because that's the key to everything that comes beyond them.

Greg Voisen
I know it sounds a little bit too simple. But I heard this said from the Dalai Lama, and in many different places, you know, if we're going to bring had you want to call it, change our environment, change our world that we have to be more compassionate with one another. Now, obviously, he uses the word compassion a lot. A plug for me here I own compassionate communications Foundation. And I think that in this whole movement, we've kind of been in this divided world, guys, we've seen so much divisiveness, especially here in the United States, maybe not as much abroad, but I'm actually seeing a lot of it abroad. You know, you can't have a war being fought between Russia and Ukraine, and see so much, so many challenges in the world. What would you guys, how would you bridge this gap and find these common grounds to work toward a collective purpose? Because if this book is about that, and each one of these chapters in this book, kind of, as Joanie said right at the beginning, it's got its own little message, but it's so flows so well together? How would you guys like to address that question? And the question is, how are you going to bridge these gaps and find a common ground? And how are we going to be more compassionate with one another, to solve these problems, and these problems are so big.

Phil Clothier
I want to start with a short story, which was in 2010, we did a national values assessment of the USA. And one of the jaw dropping pieces of data was we looked at the personal values of those people who's a Republican, and those people who said they were Democrats, and of the top 10 values between those two groups. Nine of them were the same words. So the and the difference was that Republicans said that they held integrity, and the Democrats that they held compassion as the word that was different, but everything else was the same. And so when you look at these two groups and everything they're fighting about at the beliefs level, and then you drill down to the values level, you find all that stuff that connects us at a true human heart. So level. And then we've got the stuff that we can talk about that connects us rather than the belief level of the myriad of stuff that we can disagree about and even create walls for.

Greg Voisen
Well, can I drop a little drop of water in the ocean? The reality is we are all one, right? I'm a devotee of self-realization fellowship. So you probably remember that from Parma, Honza Yogananda. But, but the reality is, is that I've never seen and how do I want to say this? defect in leadership? Okay, now look, you at Barrett and Emmanuelle and Joanie, have all you've all worked with leaders, right? Maybe this isn't a bad place to address this. Because you guys are working in organizations where hopefully, you're seeing leaders that are trying to come together collectively to solve these problems. Do you guys want to address how we're going to bridge the gaps and find a common way for collective purpose and find leaders who can actually carry on with that message and hold it and keep the movement going, because when you say holomovement, this is a movement, somebody's got to lead the charge, right? Unless it's a collective that's leading the charge.

Joni Carley
Leadership in this kind of context tends to be much flatter, it tends to not be so hierarchical as we think about leadership. And so that's, that's part of it. But you know, Phil was speaking to really hard core metrics. And the metrics are very clear, financial, and social, they all go up when a leader attends to these so called softer indicators. And in my book, the alchemy of power, I go into this, we have all been acculturated, especially in the Western world, into what I call the fluffy myth. And that myth is that all of this stuff like love and caring, and values and compassion, are inconsequential, fluffy stuff that are, you can only get to those luxuries after you get to how many widgets were produced for how much that is total mythology, there is nothing that backs that up. All of the data backs up the fact that when a leader is compassionate, when a leader is caring, when the culture nurtures people, people do better. And as far as coming together and spiritual work, you know, part of it is to do your own personal homework, meditate, pray, get into that zone into that area of metaphysics, which expresses differently for each of us. But we have a big part of the problem is the context, right? We're all living in this old paradigm context, even those of us who are thinking far into to a holomovement being our reality, which is going to take generations. But still we were so acculturated to believe in this separation. But you were right, Greg, that Jude caravan as a cosmologist in the hollow movement sets a lot of context. Unity is not some far off utopian aspiration. Unity is our existential reality. And so the hollow Movement seeks to create the context where we can live accordingly. Yeah, right. Oh, we're living in a context that says, no, that's not you know that. And so we're all in conflict, because we're living in this in this. In this cultural context, it's just not true. It doesn't hold up.

Greg Voisen
Well, I think you're absolutely right. And I want to talk about holomovement also explores the role of spirituality. And I mean, he has word consciousness. You know, you have Ken Wilber as one of your he's been on the show here many times. He's part of this book, as well. And a lot of thought leaders and again, Emanuel, thank you for bringing them all together in one spot. In the quest for this unity, and this question is for Emanuel. How do people the aspects help us navigate the challenges that we've faced? Pardon me, I'm gonna knock that out. Um, and, you know, this book really does a very good job in each and every one of its chapters to kind of address the holomovement, but more importantly, address this elevation of kind of consciousness that was that was bones theory as well. And while we talk about it, I'm not certain that everybody out there listening today really gets what an elevation and consciousness is right. I think this is a great question for you Emmanuelle because this has been your life's work. And you're the one and that was in charge of putting all this together. So what would you say for our listener out there today? Who is finding themselves in this position where they want to do something? And I always say this, I always say at the end of my shows, what action can someone take that's actually going to transform their life?

Emanuel Kuntzelman
Well, that's precisely the question, Greg. And each individual needs to ask themselves that question, they need to find a cause that they believe in, that will help rectify some of the issues in today's society. But that cause also needs to connect with their own personal drive and their talents. So we don't all have the same talents or interests. But there are plenty of causes to go around for all of us. So the first step is taking some deep introspection, and figuring out where each person fits into this picture, where can they be the most effective, and then organize in a small group to take action, we're advocating the formation of holons, as Phil mentioned earlier, small groups that are both parts and the whole simultaneously. And as a whole, on which we're defining as a minimum of three individuals, you build a community of action around a specific cause, to do some good work in the world. And as you do so your conscience as your consciousness simultaneously expands and grows with the work you do. So it's not like one thing before the other, it all emerges organically together as a collectivity. So the important thing is to get started to get to work on the inner development, as both Phil and Joanie have pointed out, find your spiritual practice your meditation, your yoga, whatever it is, and what works for you practice it, then find your action component, build your community. And the reason that most people aren't sustaining this action or the development is they have no ecosystem of support. So build your own ecosystem of support, find friends, colleagues, people who share your beliefs, share your need, and your drive to take action and work with them together. And then you've got that ecosystem to fall back on to and it all creates a positive feedback loop of both raising the frequency of consciousness, your enthusiasm, and the positivity that you're getting back from doing good in the world. I appreciate that.

Joni Carley
Choose love, just choose love. You know, if you even beyond organizing, in a moment where you don't know what to do, choose love. And I would just like to speak a little bit to consciousness, because consciousness is causal. And so unless we work in that domain of consciousness, it's very hard to cause much else. And when we applied to, to create the unit of cluster at the United Nations, we actually had the word consciousness in our application, and the UN approved it. So that says that the world was really moving forward, right? That we're allowed to even don't even gather at the UN and intervene in un processes, to make the case that if we do not locate a lot of this work in the domain of consciousness, it really cannot be done. Because you're just kind of circling the edges. Again, you're fighting these little fires and putting them out within a paradigm, you're saving a paradigm that's not worth saving, and then not putting the energy into a love based paradigm. And so really just even taking a moment where you've even beyond organizing, and finding other people, all of that is good, but just taking a moment to say, how am I seeing this? Am I seeing this through a fear and separation based lens? Which is all I've ever been taught my whole life? Where am I able to now refocus this? Am I able to put on the whole glasses and say, you know, is this Can I see this from a love based perspective? Can I shift my own consciousness around this?

Greg Voisen
Well, I well said and Phil, I am going to get to you. Okay, I respect and totally honor what each of you is saying. And I think you know, one of the things that keeps each of you going is your own insatiable curiosity, for life, for making a transformation for making a difference. And that curiosity led you to a very strong purpose. Phil, in your case, you know, you woke up and said, this isn't what I want to do. I want to do something else. And I think all of us as human souls on this planet are growing and evolving. We grow through these processes of transformation, huge transformation something awakens with inside of us I'm, and before I go to my next question sale, hopefully I didn't interrupt that train of thought. But I needed to get that in. What would you like to say?

Phil Clothier
Well, I wanted to share something on consciousness because it's on many different levels ever deep spiritual aspects of consciousness. But there's a really practical part, which is, knowing something today that I didn't know yesterday, I was coaching a leader a couple of weeks ago, and encouraged him to say thank you to his team. And he'd never thought of doing that. And that he was a bad person. But he came to me two days later, he was so excited because his team lit up when he said thank you to them. And they said, thank you to him. And so I love that story. It was love. So it's, it's really simple and practical, like Tony said, choose love. That's an example of that in a very practical way. And he's aware of something now that he didn't really know, two weeks ago, or yesterday.

Greg Voisen
Well, I want to say this book is full of ideas like Joni said at the first, you don't actually even need to read the whole book, you can just read chapters out of the book, and you get kind of pieces and parts of the story. But how do you each of you envision the future of humanity? I mean, like we're talking about the survival of our species and all the other living species on this planet. Obviously, we are seeing, unfortunately, the loss of many species at this point. If we embrace the principles that you've presented in the whole movement, what can you envision for humanity? I know many of us, you know, I'm not a doom stare, I think we have the opportunity to reduce global warming, I think there's still time left for us as a species. But I believe that what you guys are doing, it's, it's, it's people like yourselves, which is why I'm highlighting it that actually are going to help the world make the transition and the shift. What do you think is in store for us? And we'll start with you, Phil.

Phil Clothier
Okay, well, somebody reframed for me last week talking about a welding crisis. And actually, it was Jude karavan, who Joni was talking about earlier. She said, maybe we're not a welding crisis. Maybe we're a welding metamorphosis. And if you if you take the story of a, of a caterpillar going into a butterfly, that's a painful process, and the imaginal cells, many millions of them get killed in the process of that happening. It's a it's a painful metamorphosis. And it's not easy my own. That recent transformation I've been through in my own kind of burnout and depression. That was another metamorphosis, which was far from pleasant. And I feel now that humanity is what how would we treat things differently about being in crisis versus metamorphosis? Because that says, we're actually moving in the right direction. And we're, we need to know that it's gonna be painful, but we're on the right track. And so I to hold huge optimism and hope for this. And I, I know that it's not going to be easy.

Greg Voisen
No. And with that for you, Emanuel, what do you add? I guess I'll throw this out to all of you. But let's start with Emanuel. What do you hope readers are going to take away from all the movement? And how do you see it contributing to larger conversation around unity, purpose, and collective action? Because this is the point of the podcast, where I actually like the listeners to know, okay, what can I do? Or who do I have to become? Right? And maybe it isn't always about doing maybe it's this shift in our own consciousness, the little, small things that we do as individuals that make a bigger impact in the world. Examples for me, you know, I know this may sound silly, but I've been profiling companies that I see that are doing good in the world, right? And one of them is, and you guys could laugh at me. But we do we throw away a million plastic bottles in this country. Every second. Right? So now, I said no more shampoo bottles. I went to solid soap, solid shampoo soap, right. I had never experienced it. There's a little company in Lithuania. That's making this soap it's called solid EU cosmetics and it is the best product I'm gonna plug the hell out of it because not only it is the box that it comes in this little, teeny box. It Deke is It completely decomposes in 42 days in the ground when you put it in the earth. So, you know, it's companies like these to me, that if we all started using their products and stood up, and this was the action, or you have a loamy, on your sank, and you're grinding up your, your, your waste materials, or whatever it might be, I know you have to weigh out the impact of the use of electricity. But I've taken tons of movement on my own. Right, and just in the last probably five years, what is it that people should take away, though, a manual around this purpose and the collective action that they can take to make a difference?

Emanuel Kuntzelman
Well, thank you, Greg. And, yeah, it is a shift in consciousness. It's happening and accelerating. But it's got a long way to go. I think reading this book, it is a lot of the theory and philosophy. It's not a manual for taking action that we kind of leave up to the reader. But it helps dispel many of the mistaken assumptions about the whole old paragraph and paradigms use that is based on this notion of competition, and competition for scarce resources. Where in actuality, if we turn that around, we learn cooperation, shared resources, there's a huge unlimited abundance of energy, resources of all sorts that we can access. You know, just a simple example of our political parties and governments. They probably spend 99% of the time arguing and bickering with each other. Imagine what they could accomplish if they just started off in a sense of cooperation and seeking solutions was even 10% of their time.

Greg Voisen
How do you Emmanuel breakdown the political structures which keep to keep proliferating, through lobbying, all of these companies in our country in particular, continued to get favoritism. I'll just say the oil companies, I'll be happy to dimension it. You know, the reality is we've built the structure and underneath this whole structure, both monetarily educationally governmentally, we've got some pretty major issues, I haven't seen much change of the breakdown in that structure, I see that it's trying to do it at the fringes, but there's so much resistance, because this is how I earn my living. And I'm gonna keep on this path. And I'm gonna fight for it till the end. And I hope that's not too much of a commentary for this show. But it's a commentary that I kind of see. And then the people that take those positions of power, continue to get how they want to say, fluffed up from the power. Joanie would say, no, it's like, okay, my ego needs this. So now I'm gonna keep going on. And I don't I keep saying, where are those leaders? Where are those leaders like us? How come we're not stepping up?

Joni Carley
But I think people are, I think one of the problems is we want to get into doing mode so quickly. And it's part of our conditioning. And the reality is that there are phenomenal projects going on in the world. And if projects alone were enough, the world would be there. Because there are enough fabulous projects. But we're not there. We're far from there. And I think part of it fills and Jude's analogy to the butterfly is, you know, for real change, and for any kind of creativity, there has to be chaos. And so we are entering maybe squarely into that period of chaos, the falling apart, and the more you try to hold on the you know, big front, big back, the more things are gonna fall apart, right? The yin and yang, this is why

Greg Voisen
maybe I'm looking for the coherence from the chaos, you know,

Joni Carley
the consciousness comes in, because coherence happens at that level of consciousness. It doesn't happen at the project level. It happens at the project level, when people have the same consciousness come together and work on the same project. But that still isn't the kind of coherence that we're talking about. It happens from people taking the time to read, taking the time to say, I'm going to choose love instead of reacting to that person the way I normally would, you know, that's then you build a little tiny chunk of coherence right there. And then, and that's enough, without having a great big project or purpose, that beingness that coming into the metaphysical realm, valuing the work of the metaphysical, we have so put on extensive valuation for everything physical, and we've given almost no evaluation for the metaphysical and the metaphysical, like the iceberg right now. 90% of that is below the surface. Well, the metaphysics or 90% of our lives. Yeah, this stuff is what turns us on and really makes us go and drive to their purpose. And so attending to the metaphysical and tending to the invisible, attending to the being, and having the courage to say, I don't have a sense of doing right now. I'm going to sink in and sink in, in a in an active sinking in right? It's not giving up checking out. It's a sinking it. That's why we're meditation is different. Meditation isn't just daydreaming, right, meditation is an alignment. It's a sinking into a kind of being NASS.

Greg Voisen
Emanuel, you know, this book is the roadmap, you said that kind of you said it's a framework, how I put it that way. It's a framework. And each of you has done such a wonderful job in this, but Emanuel I think for you, as we're evolving as a species to try and come together more connectedness, more purpose, more interconnectedness, more ability for cooperation, versus competition. I've heard you make references in between those. What would you like the listeners to kind of take away from our interview today?

Emanuel Kuntzelman
Well, I think one of the main things is, is the point you were making Greg about individual choices on a seemingly very small level, like changing your shampoo to not throw away a plastic shampoo bottle? It seems like a very small thing. But everything you do every thought you have every act you take, if you multiply it by 8 billion population of Earth today, then you can see the impact it could have. And I think we have to go about things from that point of view. And as far as the slow rate or never changing large social institutions, whether that's our government or anything else, we just have to realize that the larger and the older the institution, the more slowly it is going to change. That is the nature of reality. We can't expect the government to solve our problems, because they're very slow. They're very divided, and they're a very old paradigm. So if we're looking for that to save our world, it's not going to happen. What has to happen is a grassroots ground. level up arising of human values, as Joanie and Phil have pointed out, which we are in agreement on truth, beauty and goodness in the human heart and soul, get back to that. And love. As Johnny says, Choose Love, choose compassion, you'll be happier, your neighbors will be happier. There's a snowball effect of love and happiness, it actually really works. It always has, it's always been in the wisdom traditions, we just lost track of it in the materialistic pursuit. So I would just urge everyone is, yeah, read the book, get the foundation, the science, the understanding the research behind how the universe is. One is a living, compassionate, sharing universe, convince yourself of that, and put it into action on an individual basis. And you'll see how it works gives you the feedback, you'll feel better on a daily basis, you'll do more, and it's going to take place from the ground level up. And there will soon be in our lifetimes, a critical mass of people sharing in this vision, and leading it forward as an uprising of human understanding.

Greg Voisen
Joni, I'm gonna come to you, you've talked many times through this podcast, about choosing love over fear. And I just heard Emanuel say the same thing. And I get that. And what is that? What is would that feel like for some of our listeners?

Joni Carley
It would feel like taking a breath, you know, sometimes we would be responding rather than reacting. If you feel yourself charged up, that's not the time to react. That's the time to step back, take a breath, touch it touch base with the larger wholeness. I think that's something Immanuel just said is really, really important. We do put a lot of focus, especially in this in this genre, where we're speaking, the audience is listening and all of us, we tend to say the inner being the person to your own inner development work, that's really so but we risk being narcissistic around that. Because the other part of that is also true, and why a book, like the holomovement is so important. You also have to think of the greater whole, the greater good. And so to take your consciousness in the both and, you know, what's, what's the greater good here, what's the higher purpose, what's the bigger picture here that I can step back. So sometimes I think the most important thing a leader can do is take a trip to the bathroom, instead of reacting, you know, take it, take a walk, and you know, just don't respond, it's better to say nothing sometimes. And to come back, when you find your center, just find out where that center is, first of all, by doing your personal homework, when I which can be music, meditation, while you know something that that you are consciously working on your consciousness, so that you have that muscle to flex when the time comes. Because that's the problem. If you haven't done that work, when the time comes, you don't have the muscular ability to really be strong in that moment. And so you do that personal homework so that when you're with the other people, you have something in that moment to bring to the table to bring to the fore and where you are conscious of what you're doing rather than reacting unconsciously. That's the difference between reaction and response is Where you conscious or were you unconscious? And it's like learning a language, you know, you don't know the word and so you just don't say anything. The next day you say the wrong word. The next day you lay in bed, you think of the right word, the next day, you say the right word at the right time. And consciousness is the same way right? You might react but do the self-reflection that says that's not really who I wanted to be. That's not really the person I am. Do I need to clean something up that's the other piece of that go clean up the masters and then that how that frees a lot of you to be available for this. I

Greg Voisen
Really I love your personal perspective. Joanie on and I think that's your, your book on alchemy. All my listeners should get that most definitely. And Phil will end this. Yeah. Yeah. The Alchemy of power. Feel like you've got a new book out to write as well. I noticed that your website, besides this holomovement, contribution book. Yeah, it's sustainable.

Phil Clothier
So growing a culture for sustainability.

Greg Voisen
Got a plug in for that. And what I would like to do is end this up with you, Phil, because you're the one that started us getting all together. And I want to thank you for that. This has been a great interview. Thank all of you for that. And, Phil, if you were to leave our listeners with why don't we focus on the chapter that you and Joanie wrote because I think values, much of which we've touched on is the value segment. It's about what we hold near and dear to our own heart, how we express and move throughout the world with our values? And what would you say with relation to the holomovement? And holding near and dear to our heart? And our values?

Phil Clothier
I need you to repeat the question I didn't quite what was the last part of the question regarding values and

Greg Voisen
yeah, values just about values, how important that is to you. Shifting making holomovement, we've talked about our spiritual transformation. And we've talked about all kinds of other transformations. A lot of times we have to revisit our values, right? And look at them, wouldn't this be a time for people to revisit those values? I mean, we're just talking about my own personal values around putting plastic bottles into the, into the environment, right, I've made a huge shift in my values.

Phil Clothier
Okay, that is absolutely true. And, and, in fact, we know that some people have values that are at the center of there being some people are value fairness for the whole of their life. And that follows, and through some people are more compassionate, some people are more logical. And so those, but actually, our values shift, depending on what's going on in our life. And we, and the interesting thing is, as Johnny just said, there’s we always have choice with this. So just like that leader, who now actually values gratitude in a new way, like, oh, thank you for that. And I appreciate what you're doing. And what I would say is that in every, every thought, every word, and every action is an expression of our values. And one real one real situation. I know leaders who say my number one value is family. And then they work ridiculous hours, they don't see their children to the weekend, and then they're on their mobile phone, checking the latest stock price and emails and things. They're number one, they might think the number one value is family, but actually they value something even more, which might be wealth or status or something else. And so

Greg Voisen
together, maybe just more, maybe just more. Right, right? That's what I'm saying. And I think what we have to do, I'm not advocating minimalist minimalism, what I'm advocating is that people really make strong choices about their next purchase. Right? You know, really look, because it's those small things, and then who you're purchasing it from and why you're purchasing it, and what you're going to use it for. Because there's so much of what we have, we have so much abundance, as Emanuel said, we've got a ton of resources out there. But that doesn't mean depending on you know, the US what are we using, like three quarters of the world's energy. It's so backwards, it's out of balance. It's out of balance. And what we're all trying to do here is find some homeostasis move forward, as souls and individuals and you guys are giving a roadmap for that and have and holomovement. And I really want to just, again, thank all of you, namaste to each and every one of you. Thanks for being on Inside Personal Growth and sharing your thoughts. And for my listeners, we're going to put a link to all of their websites. We're also going to put a link to the book. We'll also put a link to Joni's book, we'll put a link to Phil's book. So in that blog, please check it out. Thank you all for being on the show. And thanks for your time today.

Joni Carley
Thank you.

Phil Clothier
Thank you.

Emanuel Kuntzelman
Thank you, Greg. Thank you very much.