Greg Voisen
Hey, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth where this show talks about business, personal growth, wellness and spirituality. All topics, Buki. And if you would hold up your book. Sure, there we go. All topics. I Don't Understand: Navigating Unconscious Bias. We're going to be speaking with Buki in the workplace. And Mosuki. Did I pronounce that right?

Buki Mosaku
Mosaku, Mosaku.

Greg Voisen
Mosaku. Well, Buki, I'm going to tell our listeners a bit about you put the book down now because I don't have a copy of the book will ask you to hold that back up again a little bit later. But for all my listeners out there Buki is known by the London economic and he is joining us from London is the world's foremost expert on navigating unconscious workplace bias. He was born in and West London to Nigerian pay parents. He started his corporate career in media and advertising before moving into consultancy in the City of London. He founded Ross, a C A. D, and international business and sales training, consultancy and diversity think tank, a consultancy of workplace bias, navigation and diversity inclusion experts and his work as communication expert, consultant and coach to 10s of 1000s of global clients, staff over more than two decades, he became acutely aware of the impact of the multi directional role of workplace biases in otherwise prosperous careers including and his own times. He became frustrated with his own challenges, and an add adequacies of behavioral experts, authors and consultants attempting to address workplace biases. So he set out to develop a fair, equitable results oriented methodology to tackle person to person biases effectively in the workplace. His book, I don't understand navigating unconscious bias in the workplace is the culmination of more than two decades of working with observing and interacting with more than 50,000 individual throughout the world. As a consultant, communications expert trainer, and coach. Well, welcome to Inside personal growth. Thanks for taking the time Buki to address what in our world, everybody's world worldwide, not just London, not just, you know, Los Angeles, not just New York, this is a problem worldwide. And I want you to share with the listeners what motivated you to write it because obviously being a black man, you recognizing the biases, probably more than anybody else. You wanted to tackle this topic of unconscious bias in the workplace, which is a big one. I mean, it's it's a big one to tackle. Why do you why do you want to write this after? You know, working with 50,000 individuals, and all of them? Really probably realizing that they were all biased? Yeah.

Buki Mosaku
Yeah, well, first of all, thanks for having me, Greg. And, yeah, look, you know, it's interesting, because, you know, I'm in my 23rd year of consulting. And when I, you know, when I became a solo practitioner initially, assault, yeah, right. solopreneur. Right, whatever the word term is, I was exposed to bias, you know, all types of bias in the course of developing a business, in particular, racial bias. Now, when I say that people always think, Ah, right, yeah, it's a black guy. He's been on the receiving end of racial bias. But in reality, actually, it's yes, sometimes I was, but in other cases, it was my bias towards the majority. And that kind of confused me like, sometimes I would go for a deal. And I wouldn't, it appeared that I wasn't going to get the deal. And you know, I felt that the that was driven by unconscious bias from the client. And so I get really upset and I'd be cursing them out in my mind.

Greg Voisen
And what do you define Buki as unconscious bias? I think that might be the starting point. For some of my listeners right now. It's like, okay, this guy is talking about unconscious bias and, and they may have an idea, but what is your definition of it? I know you got a great one in the book.

Buki Mosaku
Yeah, so Okay. unconscious biases, career stifling behaviors driven by societal conditioning, negative career stifling behaviors. IT career stifling behavior is driven by negative societal condition leaning towards certain groups. Right? That is what unconscious bias is. So when you put people into groups, and in the story I was saying, I sometimes sense the bias towards me, that is because of my ethnicity. Because I was going for high profile roles, and people weren't used to seeing people who looked like me leading an organization around that would, they would give that rock that business too. I sensed bias. I sensed that they didn't want to give me about the business. But in reality, what would happen is that two weeks later down the line and get a call. And the person would say Buki, we love you. We love what you're doing. We really want you to work with us. And I think, Oh, my God, I was just cursing those guys. And thank God, people can't read minds and get the business, right.

Greg Voisen
Life of a salesperson.

Buki Mosaku
Salespeople, as we as salespeople are impatient to see as bias. And then but sometimes I was right. So then some, so it was a confusion for me. So this led me to a quest, I'm trying to work out how to deal with this bias thing. Because it was doing it was doing my head. So that was an awesome, I should also say this, whenever I was on the receiving end of bias, right? Whenever you anybody is on the receiving end of bias, right? The feeling that you tend to have is, I just don't understand how somebody could be so nice and so wicked, the incivility of this behavior, the injustice, I just don't understand it. Can you believe what this person said to me? Can you believe what this person did? And you're calling in? But the overwhelming feeling is that you just don't understand. So that led that misinterpretation I told you about earlier? And this feeling that you tend to call internally lead to the title of my book, I don't understand because I kept thinking what if I could call it out? What if I could say without getting the other person upset? And so

Greg Voisen
what in your estimation, Buki is a difference between discrimination? And an unconscious bias? If there is any, because Wait a second, you know, I'm Jewish right now, anti semitism is pretty challenging across the whole world. Right. So now you got to say to yourself is okay, there's lots of groups, where there's lots of biases for maybe more discrimination or even hate? Right. And so, how do you address that? Because in the workplace, I would assume this goes on all the time. Yeah. How do you break it? How do you break it

Buki Mosaku
had said, Well, I think the first thing to reckon the most important thing to recognize, in order if you want to effectively navigate bias, effectively, I can show you I can show anybody how to navigate workplace bias that is being treated badly because of your difference, right? I'll show you how to do that, you know, not getting the same opportunity. Being unconsciously discriminated, I can show you anybody how to deal with that. But the only way I can show you how to deal with that, right is if you accept the multi directional nature of bias, that is, bias is a two way street. It's not a one way street, there are certain groups are at the wrong end of bias, more so than others. But it's still a two way street. You know, if I sent bias from you as my boss incorrectly, right. I that becomes my bias. So the question then becomes what what's my bias? What's my misinterpret? You know, if I misinterpret, let's say, I misinterpret an unfavorable decision towards me is driven by unconscious bias? Right? The question becomes, well, what's that misinterpretation based on? Well, I'll tell you what it's based on. It's based on my past experience. It's based on hearsay in my community. Right. And it's based on a wider narrative about the white majority. And I anchor to the i shortcut to that, when I'm on the receiving end of unfavorable decisions, I shortcut to that conditioning, and that becomes my bias. So there are two forms of bias, right? There's directional bias. That's the one that we all know about, which is towards you because of your race and ethnicity, your gender, your sexual orientation, your ailleurs multi dimensional and then there's reverse what I described as reverse bias. That is where you misinterpret sense or actual unfavorable decisions towards you as driven by bias. Yeah, I got it. Well, that becomes your bias. And if you think about those two biases, directional and reverse, they're actually based on the same thing. So directional bias, the one that we all know about, right? What's that based on? Well, I'll tell you, is based on hearsay, in people's community about a particular group. It's based on their past experience with that particular group, and negative past experience with that particular group, and a wider narrative about that group. So the point I'm trying to make is that we're all exactly the same. Yeah,

Greg Voisen
oh, yeah. Well, we are except, and then I'm gonna say, except that some people believe they're better than Okay. Which helps to perpetuate those biases. But you know, you created a quiz. And you have a website, www, navigating bias, NaVi GA T I N, G, B, I a s.com. For my listeners, we're gonna put a link. Can you tell us about the quiz? And if somebody goes to that website and takes that if they're very curious, right now they're like, Hey, this guy is speaking the truth. Buki understands this, I understand have the bias. Now I take your quiz. What does it tell me? Right.

Buki Mosaku
So that's Yeah, so I call that the Masako is bias navigation test, and you go to navigating bias.com. And essentially, what it tells you is that, you know, organizations, this is one of the bias in an organization leads to under representation of certain groups, right? So organizations have different ways of dealing with it, right. And what I found is that there's unconscious bias towards a person, which is negative negatively holds them back. But there's also unconscious bias in the way that we address it in the strategies that we use to address and tackle unconscious bias. So when you go to Morocco's bias navigation test at navigating bias.com, when you go there, and you take, and in this 90 seconds when you take the kind of test or quiz, right, what it does, it identifies what strategy what thought process, what behavior you use to address bias. Right? And and then it tells you what the right one is for you to use. So it kind of kind of reveals the right strategy for us to tackle bias

Greg Voisen
that you said earlier than in the workplace, you can help people understand where and how this bias comes from, you mentioned to the readers in the book that how to think what to say when to say, and a way to say it is really important. Could you speak with us about this? Id you methodology?

Buki Mosaku
Yeah, so Id U stands for I don't understand, right, which is the the title of the book. And the title of the book is based on the methodology. I don't under your ID, you which stands right on the stand. And like I said, at the top of this, right, whenever you're on the receiving end of what you believe, to be in injustice, unfair behavior towards you career, stifling behavior towards you, because of your difference. You said, you tend to feel like you don't understand why this is happening. You can't understand this injustice in front of you. So what if you instead of calling that inwards? What if you could call it out? And that's what the ITU methodology is all about. And there are basically dif two types of bias. Right? There's what I describe as simple bias. And complex by so simple Korea, stifling bias and complex Korea stifling bias. So simple Korean stifling bias is microaggressions. By microaggressions, I mean, subtle slight said to you on a day to day basis, maybe because of your difference. Your your lot do this, or, you know, I find had hair, can I touch your hair, you know, or, you know, any kind of negative you speak so well, that's that I used to be told that when I first started speaking, people said, Oh, you speak so well. Okay, you speak so well. And I would see that as a kind of backhanded compliment that for somebody that looks like me, I speak speaks so well. Right. So that would be a microaggression. I sometimes it was a reverse microaggression for my part, but we'll get on to that later. Right. So that's simple bias. Now, it other books, other methodologies have all these different, complex, boring ways of dealing with it. But I think there are three steps to dealing with simple, simple Korean stifling bias. So the way to deal with simple Korean stifling bias is to give the person the benefit of the doubt, always give the So when the person used to say to me you speak so well book instead of thinking it was the slight, I just think, why don't you think before you speak so well compared to the last person, or I generally speak so well. So give them step one, give the person the benefit of the doubt, right? Step

Greg Voisen
two might be that you were raised with a family have biased in your Nigerian group. And it said that I'm not enough. So when somebody complimented you about being good enough, it had nothing to do with them. It had everything to do with Buki and how he was raised, because he said, I was always told maybe I wasn't enough. So now that if someone tells me I speak really good, what the hell's wrong with that person?

Buki Mosaku
No money, Greg. Say could be that.

Greg Voisen
You're saying give them the benefit of the doubt? I say, yeah. Why would you put me in a state of mind that that would upset your peace? Right. So why do you want that comment? That was a compliment. to upset your piece. Oh, I accept it. You said thank you very much. I really appreciate that. Yeah, exactly. I got it. Okay. There are

Buki Mosaku
two element two more elements to that. So yeah, so you know, and I'm tapped into the reason why. You're obviously you've you've given me a psycho analysts that write an analysis. But the other reason why is I'm tapped into the wider narrative about the white majority, not liking people like me, or thinking that we're less that right. But the second step is step one, given the benefit. The second step is reconditioned light recon semi reconditioning. So if I feel that there is something there, but I should always give them the benefit of the doubt, if I feel there is something there, I could just say to them. Oh, thank you. You sound surprised, and then move on and enjoy your lunch. Right? So step three is move on and enjoy, you know, the sense of price will get the person to think well, why do you think I sound surprised? Or, and that might get them thinking? And that kind of interrupts the bias if the bias is that, and it stops that micro aggression and micro aggression from happening again, because the biggest issue with micro aggressions is the accumulation. It's not the one comment. It's the accumulation that affects the well being, and affects mental health. And because people don't know how to deal with it, but if you respond, and then move on and enjoy your lunch, your lunch will always be good, but mine lunch was ruined because of it, keep thinking about it. Why do you think I speak so well? What are they trying to say? That kind of thing? So that's simple bias. Right? And the second one is complex. Now, this is the real big stuff. This is what I think is what under causes major under-representation in the West. You know, you just have to look at figures in the United States and in the UK, in the United States, there are only seven in the Fortune 500 They're only seven black CEOs, right? There are only 53 females in the Fortune 500 who are CEOs right in the UK in the in the footsie. 100 there are zero black CEOs, right in the footsie 250 There's only 16 ethnic minority so that all of that tells you that under representation in the West is a problem. Now I think the way to deal with that when you sense an injustice, your career stifling complex that is maybe you're bringing in business you're you you want to be made you want to be put on the shortlist for partner but you're not put on the shortlist. But other people are who you think you're better that that's complex, because difficult to prove, right? So now you address that is with four key steps, right? So step one, right, and this is really important is leave your baggage in the lobby, leave your baggage at the door baggage that based on what you can see, based on the representation that you can see around you and your sector and the company in the country. You have every right to be carry. But you've got to drop it, you've got to drop it, you can pick it up on the ground if you'd like. But in the moment, you have to drop that you have to leave the baggage of the door. So what I mean by that is racial bias baggage, sexual orientation, baggage, gender, baggage, age baggage, you can't bring 400 years of slavery to the table. You can't bring the ills of the colonial empire to the table. You got to drop all that stuff. Now my question to you Greg is, why do you need to drop it? Why do you need to drop it? If you're going to address this bias in the moment? Why do you need to drop it since

Greg Voisen
I'm you know, I just come from it as a positive charge, negative charge or neutral charge. If I give it a positive charge, it's going to basically create more animosity amongst the other people I'm going to live with. If I give it a neutral charge and I come in accepting and at peace with who I am and who they are. I virtually can negotiate much better than I could if I created those biases in the workplace.

Buki Mosaku
Exactly. So, yeah. So that's the answer you were looking for. But that's a good. That's a good that's the bottom line, but in our process, right, it's the only by dropping the baggage is the only way that you can get to step two. So the question then becomes what what is step two? So step two, i By the way, if you think Karate Kid, yeah,

Greg Voisen
a long time ago. You remember Mr. Miyagi? Yeah.

Buki Mosaku
Yeah, you remember he had a product Jay was called Daniel Russo or something like that. Right? Yeah. And he was in the final fight, wax on wax off. And Miyagi is scared because he'd been bullied and he doesn't want to lose because he's been winning up to that point. And he doesn't want to lose. I mean, he says to him, Daniel, empty your head and tell him to empty his head is because so that you can be focused, and it's the same thing. So you need to leave that baggage in the lobby. Right? All right, and then that enables you to move to step two. So the question then becomes, well, what is step two? And step two, is give everybody the benefit of the doubt. So we've looked at two steps. Step one, right, leave the luggage in the lobby. Step two, give everybody the benefit of the doubt. But here's the rub. here's the rub, Grant, call them out anyway, leave the give everybody the benefit of the doubt, but call them out anyway. So the question becomes, well, how could you give a pearl? This is what people ask me in my workshops. And when I do talks, and keynotes, it said, Well, how could you possibly give a person the benefit of the doubt and call them out at the same time? So the way to give them the benefit of the doubt and call them out at the same time, is to save his simple three powerful words? I don't understand. Right? Don't understand. That's it is the purest, it's the most unscathed place you can come from. We call this engaging in dispassionate developmental inquiry, dispassionate developmental inquiry, dde. And when you say, I don't understand there's even more good news, right? You invoke the person, if you turn it into a question, you say, I don't understand like that you invoke our natural instinct to give direction. That is, the person will say, What don't you understand? Or they'll say, Well, let me explain. And now you're into an otherwise sticky conversation that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to get into. Now, the key is to maintain the key is to manage that conversation by maintaining developmental inquiry that is, asking developmental questions. Yeah.

Greg Voisen
If the more you can question you know, I, you have a degree or background in psychology as well. You know, I remember when I was going through my psychology course, one of the better methodologies to help people was Gestalt therapy, to actually sit in the shoes of the other person who you had been wronged by and look at it from their standpoint, I think if everybody in your, in your corporation would do that, they would realize that that's the only way they knew how to react. Right? So I think as a methodology, not that everybody's going to do is stop therapy and sit in the chair of the other person, but you get where I'm coming from. The other thing is a little sign here. P here now, you know, this is on my desk all day long, right? I have to be present for these interviews. You can't go here, you can't go there. You can't go all over the place. So what an unconscious bias, how is it going to affect we're talking about workplaces here? The culture of a workplace, and what are the long term implications? implications? If it goes on addressed?

Buki Mosaku
Well, okay, by the way, I should just say there was a fourth step. Right. So the fourth step, I'll finish the four step. Yeah. Yeah. So step one was given was, leave your baggage in the door. Step two, was give everybody the benefit of the doubt. Right. Step three, was engage in how'd you do that be engaged in dispassionate developmental inquiry? I don't understand. And step four was collaboratively agree next step. And of course, you can do that because you've had a collaborative discussion. Right. So that's, that's the process now to your question, which was how do we how do how

Greg Voisen
is unconscious bias left unaddressed in the workplace, going to have long term implications? If it's unaddressed?

Buki Mosaku
Well, look, if it's not on if it's unaddressed look, Gallup. Right, Gallup did. did some research a five year four or five years ago, right? And it said that, you know, bias descent, you know, disengage bias related disengagement is causing America is costing America between 450 and $550 billion a year. Right? Why is it costing America that much money, and it's probably higher now, right? The reason why it's costing that is because disengagement leads to lower output and lack of productivity, right? It leads to an unspoken tension, it leads to, it's divisive, right? And it leads towards them and us type mentality. And this costs an organization, it costs you and output it costs you in in having a cohesive team. So we need to find a way of reducing it. In fact, in what we do, we actually measure the cost, we show you how much it's costing you, not not in an ethereal way, in a very clear way. So has to be addressed. And then, you know, it's widely known now that diverse teams are higher performing, right. So when you have under-representation, you're actually kicking yourself in the foot, you're doing yourself a disservice as an organization. So we have to find ways of addressing. And the problem with organizations in the West in corporate America, in the UK, in Europe, the problem with organizations is that they subscribe to what I describe as a guilty perpetrator versus hapless victim model. That is, there are these people out there who look a certain way walk a certain way walk and talk a certain way, they by default, are the guilty perpetrator. And there are these will look a certain way who could talk a certain way. They by default are the hapless victims. And in order for things to get better, the guilty perpetrator traditional guilty perpetrator has to spend their time in self correction. Right. And that will make the life of the minority hapless victim better. But the problem with that is to fault, right, first of all, that reinforces to the majority, right? That they're guilty. And they're in a perpetual state of guilt trying to self correct their biases. And as far as the minority is concerned, it reinforces to the majority that the minority are a bunch of hapless victims that can't go go anywhere without whose careers can't go anywhere without the majority changing. And that's not good for the that's a negative and one of the most demeaning and destructive biases out there. So,

Greg Voisen
everybody, so what you're saying is, if you could get everybody at the table to realize that we both had biases, right. And it was multi directional. Right? It's not just one race against another one's practice against another, that literally we can come on an equal playing ground to work through this, like you said, the four steps. Right. So if there's out there today, listening to you and I, employers, which there are, yeah, who want to initiate conversations about unconstant bias, but they haven't crossed the line yet. They literally have like, ah, you know, let's just keep pushing this under the carpet, which ended on the carpet. Yeah, they know it exists. What advice do you have for them? To actually start this conversation? Because I just believe that a lot of it just has to start with the proper way. We bring it up and converse about it.

Buki Mosaku
So I you know why that's such a great question. Great. The big question, you don't do sports? Right? That's a good question. Right? So I think the first thing you say, the first thing is that, except that we're all biased. And I'm not the only person that has said that many people have said that. Right? But if you accept that we're all biased, you can't, even with the unequal opportunity, due to history and all of these things that have happened. If you accept that we're all bias, you can then do programs and initiatives and trainings, which say something along the lines of this. We're all biased, close your eyes. Think of a pilot, right? And you think of a pilot and you you don't see a black person, you don't see a disabled person, you just see a white male, you don't see a woman, right? So we're all biased. Don't worry, we're all biased, right? But you say that we're all biased, but then the training is one sided. It's a one way street. So the training only focuses on changing the majority's perspective. But in the moment in the moment, if by biases multi directional, I have the propensity to be as biased towards you as YouTube towards me. So if we accept that we're all biased, right? If we accept that we're all biased in the first instance, then we can talk about the multi directional nature. And that's the way that we can address it. And then we can say, right, how do we equip people to navigate the multi directional nature. In essence, if I send spies from you, Greg, as my boss, I should be able to create in the moment psychological safety using the ITU methodology to call out that bias, or to bring that to my sense, because I've always sensed my sense bias to your, to your attention. Likewise, if you sense my reverse bias, that is my misinterpretation of your behavior towards me as driven by bias, you should be able to call me out. But the problem is, we don't do that. Because the majority are scared of being seen as unsympathetic to the equality courts, and the minority are too caught up in pain and retribution for hit for what has happened historically, on generally or on an individual basis. And so that impairs their vision. Right. But as leaders, as a leader, if you're a leader of an organization, or people manager, I'm calling on them, I'm calling on you to transcend the guilt, pain and retribution, and focus on solution. And when you transcend the guilt, pain and retribution and focus on the solution, you recognize that there's a multi directional nature. And the only way to address it is through a collaborative approach, which is my ideal method.

Greg Voisen
I like your ideal method. And I think it'll work effectively. And I think for those people, of which I'm sure there are many that are in denial of their bias, you know, that you bring white awareness to the bias that exists. And I think that, you know, it doesn't matter across board, whether you're white or your black, or you're Asian, or your female or your male or wherever perspective you're coming from, we know that they exist, the question, are you willing to come in and neutrality to actually discuss them and be open about the fact that they exist, and that this is multi dimensional? So how can individuals in the workplace, somebody's there I just said, denial, become more aware of their biases and address this unconscious bias? I know you've got the the Navigating bias.com quiz, right. But if they're listening to us right now, what are a couple of things that you might ask them a question about, that would create greater awareness about their unconscious bias?

Buki Mosaku
Again, another another good question that. So I think there are a couple of things. I think, you know, well, I'll say it in a statement, but it is a question. Right? I'll say it in a statement, but the question comes up, when you sense bias towards you, bias decisions, behaviors, right? You are absolutely 100%? Correct. Whoever you are, wherever you're minority majority, you're absolutely 100%. Correct. But so when you sense bias, you're absolutely correct. But the question that you have to ask yourself, is, Are you sensing your bias to the other person or their bias towards you? That's the question that you should always ask. So the problem is, we always anchor to what we've been conditioned to think. So when we sense bias, we just assume we're sensing the other person's bias towards us. But sometimes what we're sensing is our own bias towards the other person. So always ask yourself that, when you will, you know, when I send to bias, am I sent in my own bias, my bias or am I sensing the other person's bias? Before I even start to intimate anything? If I can do that, that will help me so that's the first thing, right? The second thing is that you must always call out sensed bias, but the key is you have to do it effectively. So I always say to people, you have a 5050 chance of being part of the problem or part of the solution. If you sense bias, you should always call it out. But you have to allow for your misinterpretation. So that's the second you have to allow. And the way to allow for your misinterpretation is to say I don't understand or some variation of that right okay. And then the third the third point is I would say is an is a bit yeah. Is to unsubscribe for me you need from a one way street view of by Yes. Okay. Generally unsubscribed. Are you subscribed to a one way street? Or a two way? Directional? Yeah, multi directional. One way streets terrorists apart. two way streets bring us together. And they say no, that

Greg Voisen
those three makes perfect sense. Now look, we the workplace is evolving all the time. You have, as you mentioned, a poor age bias, race bias, sex bias. Our workplaces are evolving. Even generational bias. Yeah. Generational? Look, I'm much older than you. But I see the bias. Even my wife, I've talked about, you know, once somebody gets to be closer to my age, you know, you see what I'm going to call as discrimination. Okay. So, what are three takeaways that you'd leave our listeners with? That can help them navigate the whole myriad of biases? Because I didn't just say it was color or race. I said, it's age. You know, it's gender. Okay. It's intelligence bias. Yeah. People say that person's more intelligent than this other person, that person has less experienced than the other person. So it's experiential bias. Right? So if you took this whole arena, the word bias itself encompasses a very broad range of things that happen in the workplace, happens outside the workplace do but we're particularly focused on the workplace. Yeah, what three things? Would you tell people today that either have experienced age bias, sexual bias, race bias, educational bias? And how might they overcome that in the workplace?

Buki Mosaku
So I think yeah, again, I think the first I think, I think the big thing is, whenever you sense it, you have to call it out. But you have to allow for your misinterpretation. So you can't accuse anybody, but you have to allow your misinterpretation, you must allow for your misinterpreted. So that's, that's the first thing, right, allow for your misinterpretation. The second thing is, and it speaks to what you said, at the top of the earlier earlier, when we were speaking, is what, you know, what do I actually want it to be here? Now, you know, what do I actually want? Am I do I want to get in? Am I more concerned with convincing or having a debate or an argument with somebody about their mistreatment of me? Or am I concerned in getting what my achieving my objective, if your primary objective, if you're if your primary focus is to achieve your objective, right, that should be a lot make it life a lot easier for you in terms of how you come to this type of solution. And what I mean by that is, it should be easy for you to drop any baggage, drop any baggage that you have. So we've looked at two things there, right. First is you must call out sense bias, but you must allow for your misinterpretation, you must allow it second is drop any baggage that you think you may feel you have the right have you got to draw it. Right. And then I think the third thing is be prepared to let it go, you know, be prepared to let it go. Once you've once you've had a collaborative discussion about it, be prepared to let that incident go. Don't anchor to that, to that. And sometimes it's your bias, but don't anchor to the bias that you sent towards you. Because when you anchor to perpetuate the problem, and you're more likely to sense it when it's not there and create a create conflict.

Greg Voisen
Think equality is another big one. And you know, so when you when you you can't come into a room that I'm greater than you have to come into room as an equal when you do that. So that's easily said that's dropping your baggage that's dropping all of that, right? Because you're never going to accomplish the end goal and objective of an organization where those kinds of things occur where somebody is saying I'm superior over somebody, or in any way whether because I'm white, because I own the company, because I because I have better knowledge. You have to have be fully inclusive in that environment. And I think your test and your Look, do you want to hold it up again, this is a good opportunity for you to hold up the book, give the listeners an opportunity to say I don't understand right, and navigate their unconscious biases. And I would say you know Buki, it's been an honor and pleasure having you on the show and spending some time with us just creating awareness about what goes in on inside of us as human beings. Understanding that it is unconscious is the biggest part, that it is playing a huge role in what effectively gets accomplished, you said $500 billion. It's costing the US economy. So multiply that times all the other economies in the cross of the world. And you have billions and billions, maybe trillions of dollars seeing that being affected. You're a knowledgeable guy about this topic. I wish you all the well with this book. I hope all my listeners out there go and get a copy. Again for you listeners. If you want to learn more about this, you've got the website that you can go to to take the test but the other one is just to go to bookies website@Bukimosaku.com. There you can learn more about his services is speaking, his bias compass, the events, the articles, he's written the other interviews he's done. It's a great website for you to do that. And also take the opportunity to take the test which is at the website as well. Buki thanks so much for being on insight, personal growth, spending. The last little bit of time with us from London. Blessings to you for thanksgiving. Enjoy your holidays.

Buki Mosaku
You too. You too. It's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure.