Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from Orange County, California. What city are you actually in? Lori?

Lori Mazan
I'm actually in Laguna Niguel, California, right near Laguna Beach, Laguna

Greg Voisen
Niguel, which isn't very far from me. And she has a new book out called Leadership revolution. The subtitle is the future of developing dynamic leaders. Laurie is the co-founder of a company called sounding board. And for all of my listeners, it's sounding board inc.com. There, you can learn more about the book under the Resource tab, as well, the top little button there, you'll see it says, leadership revolution, please look for it. And Lori, I'm going to let our listeners know a tad bit about you because they can go to the website and read the history of the company, because you are a co-founder. And we'll speak a little bit in one of my questions about your other co-founder. She is the co-founder president and chief coaching officer at sounding board. That's an organization that offers executive style coaching for most leaders when they need it the most. She has 25 years experience coaching fortune 100 C suite executives at companies like Tapjoy conveyor convexity, is that correct? Chevron, and, and Citibank and many, many more, you can go to the website and see all of the logos of the companies that she's worked with. Again, we'll have a link to Amazon to this book. Everybody, please go out and get a copy of what Lori and I say today entices you moves you inspires you in any way. i Please encourage you to go do that. Well, Laurie, let me start out with this. Obviously, it was great to go to your co-founder. And she wrote the foreword to the book. And Christine Teo states, she is the co founder states that your guidance in the book is not just theoretical, that it's an approach grounded in real world experiences, and that it offers tools and actual insights. And without and Dudley transformed the way the reader will lead. And I agree with it, because it's actually quite an unusually written focus kind of book. And we'll get into that the way you approached it, it is quite unique. And I want to put my hat's off to you. Sometimes companies like Wiley won't do that. They'll look at it. And there's a lot of pushback. But it's almost like for everybody listening 12 coaching sessions to you. What is it in your estimation that needs to fundamentally change for leaders to be able to build sustainable organizations where leadership shifts, and I'm going to repeat that shifts, and leaders are mentored from other leaders. So we're talking about succession now to carry on the real work. And I say the real work underline of a leader because, you know, we're in a very luid market right now. Everything's moving at really, really rapid speeds. And I was in a group yesterday, Lori, with Brian Tracy, Jim Cathcart. We were all meeting in La Jolla, and these are all people that speak about leadership and building your business and do this. And there are all kinds of speakers and authors. The interesting thing, they all said, we had somebody from the four seasons there. And he said, You know, it's very hard for us to find leaders we can't find in this generation. And he didn't mean it negatively. He just said, it's very hard to find the people with the emotional intelligence to do the jobs as mid-level meet leaders. Yeah.

Lori Mazan
And senior leaders. I mean, you're making the point for me, which is the environment at work has changed dramatically over the last five years, 10 years. And yet the way organizations develop leaders is rooted in the last century. So, there's just this big gap between what's needed currently, and what organizations are offering in terms of leader development succession progression. And there is a McKinsey survey maybe about two years ago that discovered that only 10% of executives believe their leadership programs are successful. In other words, when they look down on the organization, they see those leaders not being able to do that. Job 90% of the time. I mean, that is a shocking stat right there. And if that doesn't get you to rethink your leader development program, I'm not really sure what will? Well,

Greg Voisen
You know, you and I are old enough to understand that in the days of the years that we've come through and journey through this arena, that it was a lot more of a command and control kind of environment. And it was, you know, when you look at leadership, we often think of the military. And when you think of the military, you look at this hierarchical structure of leadership, that was totally based on command and control, you do what I say? Or else kind of thing. That doesn't work anymore. That is the old way. How do you see us embracing a new leadership methodology? Because there's hundreds of them out there that actually work with the current gen Zers. X ers warriors, the whole gamut across the line? Yeah,

Lori Mazan
I think that command and control approach really originated in an environment that was a quite a bit more predictable and structured. And so maybe it worked. You know, back in the day, I did a lot of work with MCI, and they were all ex military. But still, even at that point, the employees themselves were revolting against that kind of command and control approach. And that was 30 years ago. So we've been fighting this battle for a bit. I think one of the big differences between last century in this century, is how many generations are in the workforce, and how personalized people want their development to be. So in the last century, the workforce was much more homogenous, you might be able to say, here's five traits a leader should have. And that would be true, and some majority of the cases, now that doesn't work, there isn't a way to be a leader that is successful, if there was we would all be doing it, and all those links would be successful. So now the leader development has to be individually driven, it has to be context driven, it has to be accelerated it you, we used to have 20 years to develop leaders, you know, you the companies hired employees that post education and get them through retirement. Now you got less than five years, maybe 3.5 years to develop your leaders. So it has to be very accelerated. So that kind of simple, like, here's five traits of a leader, even if those five traits are good. You know, it's just not going to work in the current environment, those five traits might work in one context, but don't work at all in another context.

Greg Voisen
That is the you've hit on something that's really important. I know, yesterday, we gotten a just a brief discussion about, you know, Ken Blanchard situational leadership, the people that invented these various models. And I'm not saying we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater, we're saying, take pieces and parts and take pieces and segments of these to actually rebuild something that's customized for your leaders. Now you state that, you know, you want the reader to think of these 12 chapters in the book as 12 coaching session says, and I said a few minutes ago, it's a pretty unique way to approach the book. With each building on the last, you mentioned that it is an untraditional approach for a book which it really is. But you wanted to break the old assumption of what works. And I think you're following your own medicine, about leadership. For one Emerging Leader works for all emerging leaders, meaning, hey, one size doesn't fit all. Everybody's like a different size here. Right? So how would you advise the upper level management of companies today to take the most effective journey down the path with coaching because coaching has become, you know, I think it's a word that's overused to be honest with you. And it is I'm not saying that I'm burnt out on it. But I'm saying is advisors, consulting, coaching, whatever you might say, if there is a new term for what it is that people do, we should figure out what it

Lori Mazan
could have a new name because I actually my neighbor got a paint coach, which was somebody who's going to tell you what color to paint your house I was like, like, I don't think that's a coach, actually, this is what I'm talking about is specifically leadership coaching, it is having a partner, as a leader, who helps you identify your most successful way of the, of leading of, of moving forward, the organizational, and maybe even your personal agenda. Because these days, people really are connected to the mission and the impact of organizations. And that can be very inspirational for folks. So, you know, it's not, you're not a leader if no one's following you. And if you're using force to make people follow you, you're still not really leader there. So having a thinking partner, that can help you really identify your best way of operating in an organization to meet yours and organizational goals is, is key these days. I mean, I think the people at the top of the organization have known this for a while. And then the early days kept it kind of a secret. But now the cats out of the bag, and really every leader of organization should have a coach and companies like sounding board, and there are others have used technology to try to make this available for every leader. Yeah,

Greg Voisen
sounding board does a great job. And for all of my listeners, do sit, seriously go to sounding board inc.com, you'll find out how they do it. And they're using a combination of technology, and the personal elements associated with it. And you know, we could dive into all the things that in the characteristics that we'd like to see in leaders today and say, Oh, well, did you take the disc? Or did you take the, you know, various tests that are out there that kind of give us a clue as to who's going to be a good leader. And it was interesting, this gentleman yesterday was speaking, who is a top top executive at Four Seasons was saying, you know, he has in his office, all this memorabilia around the walls. And he is kind of head of HR. And when somebody comes in, he's looking for a leader. He's got Beatles stuff. And he's got pictures of his kids at Disneyland with himself. And he intentionally does that. And he says, the first time somebody comes in, I asked him, Is there anything on this, these walls? It's relatable to you? And he says the ones that say there's nothing relatable, he says thank you. But I guess our interview is over. Because the reality is, they're in the customer service business, you have to be able to put the dots together. I thought it was a great little story to say, hey, look, his walls, he says it's failed. He's got a guitar. He's got this. He's got things. You know, is there anything up there that you and I could have a conversation about? To write? Yeah, it gives him a lot of stuff. Though, in your chapter on the big leap, you say that it's it is time to stop relying on the leadership paradigms of the past century, which we just talked about? Can you discuss some of the ideas for how to identify, you know, in your case, this big leap of how the leaders that are listening today would use the questions that you pose, and for all of my listeners, I'm going to hold the book up again, because in the back of each one of these chapters, which is I'm not gonna call it genius, because a lot of people use questions. But Lori's questions are really, really dynamic. They get you thinking she's written about it. And then she's giving you questions. So how are these questions that you pose at the end of these chapters to become, you know, more creative about the transformation of leadership within their specific organizations, or

Lori Mazan
even within themselves? So you're, it's, you've kind of picked up on the uniqueness of the book. Some people tried to say this was a self help book, but it actually isn't because I don't ever really tell you what to do. What I do at the end of the chapter is list a set of coaching questions specifically geared towards the topic of that chapter to help you either make the big leap yourself or if you're a learning development leader, to make that big leap for your organization. And at sounding board, we start every coaching, engagement, identifying the big leap, and the reason for this is coaching is not about incremental change slowly over years. Coaching is accelerated adaptive element, which means in three or six months or a year, you're going to be fundamentally different as leader. And for that to happen, it has to be identified very early on, what is the transformational change you need to make. And

Greg Voisen
and you talk about at the beginning of each chapter, you say, In this session, this is what's going to happen in this next session, and they build on one another. In other words, there's like this building block through the 12 sessions, you're actually almost giving somebody in your book, the ability to actually learn to be a coach, by using your book on its own. They wanted to learn to coach themselves if they wanted to.

Lori Mazan
Somebody already told me they made a program for new coaches out of it. So.

Greg Voisen
Right, yeah, yeah, it's really, really good that way, Laurie, I mean, I think the design, people need to understand I get a lot of books, people ask me how many books you have in here, I probably have close to 1500, when you find one that has a great design, and the way that it's actually laid out, and I'm going to put a plug in for you, this is one of those books that has a great design, it isn't filled with charts, it isn't filled with this, but it is filled with powerful words that if you read them, it actually can make a change in you. And if you're gonna use it to coach somebody else, you could use it to coach somebody.

Lori Mazan
And that was actually my intention, like not just read a book and put it on the shelf, like that was nice, but read the book and actually take a different action, do something different. And if people do that, as a result of the book, I'll be like, ooh, now I got my satisfaction.

Greg Voisen
Well, as we say, in this industry, it's not a shelf help book. Now it's a self help book. In other words, you're not gonna, you're not gonna just put it on the shell, right? Yeah.

Lori Mazan
So yes, in fact, a few people told me they have to go slow chapter by chapter, because they would, they said, they read like to the third chapter, and then they realize, oh, my gosh, I have to go back to the first cat chapter. Because they did the third chapter, I have to get clear on the first chapter. So it really is incremental on it. And that idea was to give a flavor of a coaching engagement. So you see, the development happens over time? Yeah,

Greg Voisen
no, it is brilliant. In that respect. Now you have a chapter on letting go of outdated thinking. And, you know, if there was one thing that I could say about personal transformation, personal development, having been in this industry forever, it's always about letting go of things that our ego is so attached to that we just, you know, we don't want to let go of them, because we're identifying with them. And the ego wants you to identify it, whether it's power, or force, or whatever. And I think in leadership, a lot of people might not say this, but there is a lot of power being used over other people, right. But that's not the way to deliver it. Okay, and you speak about getting unattached to the way things have been up till now. And that this takes work. And I'm going to tell you, I've been doing these interviews for a long, long time, over 1100 of them with all kinds of people like yourself, and letting go of what it is does take a lot of work. We can talk about it, we can put it in words, we can talk about on these podcasts. But if you don't want to do the work, that's going to be the challenge. So what advice do you have for leaders that need to reinvent the way they lead? And how can you help them? And I'm going to emphasize this let go of the outdated thinking. Yes, that is the hardest part.

Lori Mazan
Yes. So I mean, that is the biggest challenge people would rather hold on to what worked previously, then try something new and risk it failing. So that fear of failure mentioned before, I think is a big factor than, you know, staying in what is known is way more comfortable than trying new things. But the reality is, if what is known is not getting you what you really want. Then now it's time to think about a new way. New actions, new ways of thinking new behavior that really will get you what you want. And one of the things I noticed over years of coaching is people will make a lot of effort towards things they don't want. And it sometimes takes an outside view to say, wait a minute, you said you wanted a and yet you're making a lot of effort towards B. What if you put that effort towards A, and just shifting the frame of reference over towards what they really want? What is compelling for them? What would create that sense of success and satisfaction and impact for them, and keep readjusting the person to that makes a huge difference. And it's very difficult for people to do that for themselves. That's just ease so easy to slip back into what's comfortable, what's known?

Greg Voisen
Well, one of the things I can say, and he wasn't on the show that long ago, Marshall Goldsmith had a book out, and we did it. And you know, everybody knows, he's probably one of the best known coaches, executive coaches out there. And he said, Greg, you know, I could be coaching people that are in the top C suite that have created billion dollar companies, with homes that are beyond belief, you know, 20 30,000 square foot homes and all kinds of money in the bank. And you ask them, Are you content? And they'll say, no, yeah. And he says they don't know when to stop. When is enough? Enough? It's like there you want to talk about overachievers? It's like a overachievers anonymous intro. Right. In other words,

Lori Mazan
it's sad. It's really sad, I have found that exact same thing, which is, people from the outside that looks successful. If you get into the more intimate conversation with them, you'll find out they're not happy. Right? Yeah. Because they haven't somehow created that sense of satisfaction of completion of impact for themselves. And it's very often something very old and them that keeps pushing them forward. And, and never giving them that sense of happiness.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, I have a degree in psychology and, and, you know, you look at childhood experiences, and when were you enough? And did the parents instill that in you, and you'll talk to a lot of Asian people, I speak to them all the time, and they go, that's kind of an Asian mindset. It's like, hey, we want you to be a doctor, we want you to be an attorney, we want you to be a neurosurgeon. You know, it's like, it's, it's a pressure that from generation to generation was passed down. Now, you just said a second ago that you asked leaders become clear, and that they need to know what they want. Okay, great question, Laurie. Although, I bet you if you ask, most people are nine out of 10 Couldn't tell you what they want. It's like the bigger dream. So can you speak with the listeners about what you refer to as this long shadow of being in the local parenthesis? Is that it parents? Apprentice? Yes, yes. And how organizations can embrace a process, which includes coaching, to facilitate their leaders to change their mindsets, think more independently, thus manifesting a positive impact on the organization in the culture? Now, there's a lot in that question, I get it. Yes, it is huge, but I'd like for you to break it down. Because we're coming from the old embracing the new and telling people, Hey, you can think independently and have autonomy to actually change this culture yourself in the organization. Right. So it breaking the question about that's, that's why I'm gonna say

Lori Mazan
yeah, like, it's funny that you lead right into that from this place of people, you know, being compelled by their childhood and never finding a place of happiness, because it leads right into this, which is like in the 60s 70s 80s. This idea of in local apprentice in place of parents was operating both in the college setting and then in the workplace. So the workplace treating, you know, adults as if their children and I call those folks grownups grown up children, not adults. And then you fast forward and you see all these high tech companies providing haircuts and food and dry clean meaning as if they are the parent of that worker, and that worker cannot take care of themselves. And so a dramatic shift needs to happen there, which then provides the employee with that sense of ownership. If you have employees who have that kind of responsibility, thinking and Ownership mindset for their work, you are not going to have to force them into it, they are going to want to do it because they have that sense of ownership by themselves as interesting and sounding board in our employee handbook, we say you are adults, we treat you like adults. And some people don't like that they actually want to be treated like a kid. It's like easier in a way. But that sense of satisfaction and impact and growth and development doesn't come if you're always operating in the child mindset. So Well,

Greg Voisen
I think accountability and self responsibility, yeah, is a big factor. I mean, you know, once you start taking 100%, responsibility for your own actions, is really when you grow up, when you don't look to the outside world and say that, they did it to me, she did it to me, he did it to me, when you really realize that you're the one that's responsible for whatever the outcome was. Now, I know a lot of people just raise their hands and goes, no, because somebody else hit me with that car, or they caused my accident, or I get that there are accidents, although I also know you're responsible for looking for the red lights. You know, Turman in which direction you're going to take, do you have your directionals on meaning the same thing here? Do I have my directionals? On? Yes,

Lori Mazan
you're responsible for your reaction to that event? Right. Right. Yeah. So it's challenging, I think, for organizations, because look, right now, 50% of adults under age 50, are still dependent on their parents financially. 50% That's like a crazy stat. Right? If you look into what's happening at universities, parents are jumping into influence what's happening at those universities? Because paying the tuition like, this is a hard mindset to beat that anybody you know, who has living parents is not an adult yet, I guess. So for organizations to make this change, I know, it's actually a very big ask, but the positive impact for the organization would be tremendous. That's yeah, oh, much less effort on controlling people, and so much more impact, because people are able to manage themselves and create the desired impact or the organization, that that's possible.

Greg Voisen
So true. So true. You know, I you're talking about the universities, the parents stepping in? And yeah, I saw it in all these interviews with the Palestinians and the, and the things going on with the Israelites. And so you know, you, you, you say, Oh, my goodness, the old Beatles song, can't we all just get along? You know, now, you mentioned that leaders avoid change, because they're afraid of failure. And everybody I think is, they're also afraid of success. I'll flip the coin. Bear in mind. How do you lead a coaching client toward not falling back into old habits embracing this new thinking and new mindset? And how would you remove the mental blocks? Yeah. And can you give listeners an example of a story where you got somebody over time to remove mental blocks that were keeping them from doing the things they needed to do and didn't look as failure as at failure as failure? They looked at it as a learning lesson? Yes,

Lori Mazan
yes. fail and learn is what I call it. Well, so there's kind of two answers in there. So one is, you know, how do you get people to take the risk and really try something new. And one of the chapters is called jumping off the cliff. It's almost like a desensitization process. Like the first time you have to jump off the cliff. It's super scary. You might need someone to push you or jump with you or pull you or something. But by the time you jumped off the cliff a couple more times, that was kind of fun. And by You know, the 10 time you jumped off the cliff, now you're getting the adrenaline rush. And you're, you know, going to be one of those clip parachutist or something. So part of it is just getting used to this process of continually trying new things and, and noticing that you don't die, the company doesn't die. We're actually not talking life or death here, we're just talking about trying something new. And seeing how it works and adjusting to make it more effective. I think it really does require a different way of thinking, and just rote practices, not enough. So what sustainable over time is changing your mindset about something and a good example, simple example is the gym. Right? In January, everyone wants to go back to the gym, and they forced themselves to do it, but they didn't change their thinking. So by March, no one's in the gym anymore, right? Because they couldn't sustain that over time. So you have to actually think differently about why you're going to the gym, to make that sustainable over time. A good example in the workplace has to do with delegation. So for new managers, one of the hardest shifts for them to make is delegating to others. In other words, getting the work done with them through others, versus doing it themselves. And they will have 1000 reasons why they should do it themselves. And they will not change that unless they're understanding about the impact of delegation, and their new role as a manager shifts.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I know that you're probably surprised we're aware of, you know, Carol Dweck book, The, you know, mindset, but it is so true about the the mindsets, you know, it's like, if you really do if you want to talk about the new psychology of success, it really is around mindsets, right? Yeah. And it's so important to understand what Laurie is saying here. I would tell you to embrace her book at the same time. Guy Kawasaki was just on the show, talking about Carol Dweck, and how important change it made in his own life as well. So yeah, yeah, it was interesting. Now,

Lori Mazan
I like her idea around growth mindset. But it leads to another idea I have in the book, which is binary thinking. So I really have not found people to be only have a growth mindset or not have a growth mindset, I have found people to be wanting to be in a growth mindset, but not necessarily actually being able to do that without the help of a coach or somebody else to really walk them forward or push them forward.

Greg Voisen
Well, I'll tell you, no matter how many books I do interviews with these books are tools. They end the end, you have to find the mentors, the people that you want to be with, who've actually gone through the pains that you're going through, and can help coach you just like you've said, through this pain through this change, because usually, there is a pain attached to it. It's an emotional pain. It's really a hard one to break. And in your chapter on breakthroughs, you speak about vertical and horizontal development, and how it helps us build skills and capacity to deal with the unpredictable. And I think uncertainty and unpredictable is probably a big one for anybody because like I'm going to change. Wow, I that's really uncertain. It's also when predictable. Why is vertical development referred to as the tip of the spear? Yeah,

Lori Mazan
this I mean, this is the basic premise of the book, which is in my round was 1970, OSHA started doing safety training for large organizations. And the result was the safety went up in organizations. In other words, they had less accidents and less injuries. And that model of basic skill training got transferred into leader development. And we call that horizontal development. It's foundational development that is generalized and works really well in a predictable environment. Everyone needs it. But that is not enough to develop exceptional leaders. You need to put those sets of skills together in a unique way for that specific leader in their specific context. In this particular situation, and to would develop that sort of art of leadership where you're able to respond rapidly to changing environment. That is the vertical development. It's a set of capabilities and capacities, capabilities being multiple skills use together, capacity being having the internal sense of self that allows you to respond differently to any situation, I call it being the eye of the storm, you're like in that clear space in the middle, even if everything's blowing all around you, and you can have a pretty good 360 view of what's happening and make, you know, an educated, appropriate decision about how to respond. Now, how do you develop that in like our online training course. And we just know those online training courses, only 10% of those are transferred to people's everyday work environment. In other words, they don't, they maybe think about it, but they don't use that in their job. And yet, without some other kind of development, you're going to have leaders only operating at the most basic level, when the environments very complex, and tip of the spear because nobody's really doing this, it's just barely getting started in the company and said, say work with soundboard or that I worked with that as a coach, they have found this to be immensely helpful. And yet, it's not commonly used because it has been difficult to deploy and measure and that kind of thing. And it's really just now being the cutting edge approach.

Greg Voisen
Well, sounding board is using some cutting edge approaches, in particular, you because you're bringing them to the company as the executive coach or the chief executive coach in the company. So I want to encourage all my listeners, again, go to sounding board inc.com To learn more about a sounding board and and Lori's work. Well, you know, the journey that we all take leadership or not, but as human sentient beings here, it's emotional, it's spiritual, it's mental, it's physical. And all of these are interrelated. And in so doing, I'm going to kind of bring this interview to a conclusion with more of a compound question for you. Okay, because this whole third right answer is the whole thing around the coach and CO G. In the meeting of minds, which we already talked about this thinking partnership, and the point in the relationship where you're both modeling a problem and finding a solution. This is extremely important. But I'd like you to answer that question, meaning, what is that like to have a thinking partner? And then secondly, what in your estimation, is what you refer to in the last chapter as the big beyond? Where have we created accelerated development? And what do you see in the future of leadership, personal development, if the leaders are to thrive in this completely transformative, dynamic, always on moving environment that I don't think is going to change in our lifetime? No,

Lori Mazan
I don't think so either. Well, I your first part of your question, I really see coaching as a thinking partnership. And the coach's job, especially at the highest level is to keep opening the door for the participant for the leader, to new ways of thinking, and it's not the coach's job to tell the leader what to do. And I'll give you an example. I was coaching, you know, the senior person at a very large company. And they called me one time at like four in the morning and said, Oh my gosh, there's a coup in another country where we're operating. And they literally said, What should I do? And, you know, as a coach, I can't tell you what to do. You're the senior leader, you are the person has to make the decision, but I can't say, Okay, what's the options? You know, What's the timeframe? What are the parameters? What is this? What is that I just keep asking the questions until the person kind of puts together mentally the plan that they think is going to work in their context in that environment. And just having that literally sounding board that back and forth. And having a person just say, wait a minute, I don't think you know, here's a little hole we haven't talked about yet. What about this other thing over here that we haven't mentioned, and just getting a really full picture of the situation, so the leader can make an appropriate choice is just amazingly helpful. And you're talking there, in that case, you are talking Life and Death people's lives, employee lives, you know, the leader obviously doesn't want to make a big mistake, they're so having that opportunity to think it through even in a short timeframe, and make a choice and make the calls and just incredibly valuable. So I would say, the future of leader development, way beyond skill development, and has to be around capacity development, what are the ways of being that create the most exceptional leaders, and there's no leader that's going to do that alone, or by themselves, or based on online training, it's going to have to be this much more interpersonal, interactive approach to development?

Greg Voisen
Well, you cover a lot of very valuable coaching. In this book, I'm going to hold it up here so people can see it. The leadership revolution or leadership, not the just leadership revolution, the future of developing dynamic leaders, we're going to have a link to this, this is a wily book, we'll have a link to it on Amazon inside the blog, as well as to the sounding board inc.com. There. Also, when you go to the resource section, again, repeat, you can click on a link that has a link to the book and an overview. Obviously, go to Amazon and read the reviews about the book as well. I'll encourage people to do that. And Lori, it's been an honor having you on because you are a unique coach, and you are approaching coaching at sounding board in a new, what I want to call dynamic and resonating way. In other words, this kind of approach should resonate with everybody that we've spoken with this morning. And if it did resonate with you, I just want to encourage you to reach out to the folks at sounding board. Take a peek under the hood. See if this works for you see what they do there maybe is different than what you're doing now. And Laurie is the CO partner or co founder in this company. So you can reach out to her as well. There's information about her on the website. Lori, thanks so much for being on inside personal goals. Namaste to you. I do

Lori Mazan
It's all mine.

Greg Voisen
Oh, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.