Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And for all of you out there, I'm sure you recognize the guy on the other side of the screen, it's Guy Kawasaki. Guy has been on this planet as long as me, we're both 69 years old. I want to acknowledge him for that.

Guy Kawasaki
Like two old cockroaches...

Greg Voisen
Two old cockroaches, but we're really not old. We're young at heart. So we're still doing this. We're out here doing it. And he has a new book out. And it's called Think Remarkable. And it's foreword by Jane Goodall. I want to know how you got Jane Goodall to look in your hair for your podcast show because she's on everyone. She's like, she was looking in the gorilla. It was really good.

Guy Kawasaki
She wasn't looking in my hair. She was looking for lice, that's what chimpanzees do for each other.

Greg Voisen
I know. And I want to give a shout out to Madison. New summer I'm pronouncing it right or no Did I screw her nice, nice summer. She's the co-author with guy on the book as well. And for all of you please go out. We'll put a link to Amazon we'll put a link to Guy Kawasaki. That's kawasaki.com. There you can learn more about his podcast, His books, His speeches, his classes, his resources, everything. Well, you know, guy.

Guy Kawasaki
It's, it's a good day when I can be on your podcast.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's a good day that you came on the podcast because this is going to be a rock and roll podcast. I already feel it. So, I reflect back I just mentioned to you a few seconds ago for started recording that we did a podcast back in September 2011, for your book, enchantment, the art of changing hearts, minds and actions. And here's what I realized, as I was reflecting, getting ready to do this podcast, that you've been on quite a journey. I mean, when I look at Canva, Apple, and I look at all these places that you've been, but your personal purpose has always been steadfast. I remember watching you speak at events, and I met you first and I can't even remember where the event was. It might have been the CES show or something like that wherever you spoke. I think it when I met you first it was actually Bill Gates was speaking as well. What is your personal purpose? And what do you hope that the readers are going to take away from your new book that will inspire them in here's the important point to live their lives on purpose and make a difference in the world.

Guy Kawasaki
So I have this podcast called remarkable people then it's now five years old, so it's much younger than yours. And I now have about 250 episodes, and that's 250 hours plus 5000 pages of transcripts. And it's with people like Jane Goodall and Margaret Atwood, Stacey Abrams, Carol Dweck, Angela Duckworth, Stephen Wolfram, Stephen Wozniak. And so I figured out there's a ton of inspiration and information in those transcripts and hours of episodes. But it's asking too much for people to read that much, or listen to that much. So Madison and I, we took 5000 pages down to 170. And it's heavily filtered and influenced by my hand to hand combat on the front lines of technology in Silicon Valley. And so this is a book it's not, you know, it's not a guy's story, per se, I'm the editor. I'm the you know, I'm the person who's like, making it all work as opposed to the actual content provider. And so I'm trying to capture the information and inspiration of these 250 people or so so that you can you can profit from the lessons of a Jane Goodall or a Neil deGrasse Tyson that, you know, you may not be able to get to know personally.

Greg Voisen
Well, you did a wonderful job of it. And I love the pictures in the book. And I love the stories because the stories really tell it all the stories of all these people's names, who many of our listeners aren't going to know because they're just not But same thing with your podcasts. You do the same thing. You have people who maybe aren't recognizable names every day out there. but who have made a huge difference in the world. And one of the things I want to let the listeners know, and they may or may not know this about you is that besides this journey with Apple, you're you're still the chief evangelist office for Canva, the creator of remarkable people podcast, you said, your executive Fellow at Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley in a job an adjunct professor at University of South Wales. That's an interesting one. He's also the chief evangelist for apple and a trustee of the Wikimedia Foundation. And he's written so many books go out and check him out. There's 11 of them. And he has his BA from Stanford and an MBA from UCLA and honorary doctorate from Babson College. Well, with that being said, you know, you did something really quite interesting. And you tell the ionic think, different story. Because like, you've been a great marketer, a great marketing guy, as they say, and this advertising campaign that ran you even show Einstein the picture, but you open the book with the ionic story of think, different advertising campaign that you ran in 97. Could you tell the sport story, and I think more importantly, speak with our listeners about the three distinct sections of this book, which it's around growth, grit, and grace, a why these elements are really so important for personal transformation. You know, you've, you've been on your own personal journey. And I know grit has been one of the bigger ones that you've had to meet with all the obstacles along the way. And as my personal growth listeners want to know, they want to know, how do I develop that strong grid?

Guy Kawasaki
Yes. So. So first, you want me to talk about the thing? Different campaign, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So think different was the ad campaign that happened in 1997. And to go back in history, at that time, many people thought that Apple would die. And so the same thinking, if you will, was that Apple would die windows would take over the world. And so Apple came up with this campaign called Think Different where it showed like Einstein, Picasso, Amelia Earhart, Richard Branson, people that the message was, if you think different, if you are an innovator, if you're a visionary, if you are a pioneer, then you have to think different. And the, the logic was, well, if you want to use a Macintosh, you need to think different, just like these leaders. And the the ad campaign was unveiled to the marketing department of Apple, I was in that meeting, at the time, I was an apple fellow and chief evangelist. And Steve Jobs was also in the meeting. So at the end of the presentation of this ad campaign, Lee Clow, from the ad agency says to Steve, I have two copies of these videos, I'm going to give one to you and one to guy. And Steve, as only Steve would say, he says, No, just give me both copies. Don't give one to guy. And so at that moment, I spoke up and I said, What's the matter? Steve? Don't you trust me? And then he said, No, guy, I do not trust you. And you know, as I look back, this is one of those man or mouse moments where you know, for the rest of your life, you're gonna say, Why did I not speak up? Why did I not stand up for myself? So I said, Screw it. Let's do it. So when he said that, I said, That's okay, Steve, because I don't trust you either. And that probably cost me a few 10s of millions of dollars in stock. But I'm telling you, it was worth it. So that's the thing different campaign and, you know, why did I tell that story at the beginning of the book, it's because well, as I wanted to hook you, make you read the book, but be my logic is that, you know, back then thinking different was okay, but now it seems like, you know, the world is in a worse place in many ways. So now you have to go beyond thinking different into thinking remarkable. So the next question, of course, is what's remarkable, and for me, remarkable is not that you're rich or famous, but that you have made the world a better place that you have made a difference. And so this book is geared towards how to make a difference, because my logic is if you make a difference, then people will have no choice but to consider you. Remarkable. So this is not a chicken or egg thing. You know, it's not about repositioning or rebranding yourself, this is about step one is you make a difference. Step two is people consider you remarkable, and that's what I'm all about. As you say the book is divided into three pieces, growth, grit and grace and This is because over the course of five years and interviewing all these people in my own career, it's just been so obvious to me that if you want to make a difference, and you want to be remarkable, then you need to grow through three phases. And growth is where you learn to learn that you learned that you can do more things, you can take risks, you can embrace vulnerability. And even if you have a growth mindset, it's still not going to come easy. So you need to have grit. And this is the work of Angela Duckworth. And finally, with growth and grip, you probably achieved some success. But in the last third of your career, I think that remarkable people, they turn from, you know, trying to achieve success to trying to pay back. And so I call this success of bluejay, which may have a bleach success of leisure, in my mind is that when you are successful, it's not just because you have growth and grit, but because some teachers, some coach, some mentors, you know, somebody gave you some breaks. And so because they gave you breaks that enabled you to succeed, you owe the universe, a payback, and a payback is you help other people succeed to

Greg Voisen
you know, it's interesting, you said that story about Steve Jobs and you standing up. And I think one of those things you learn along the way is strong purpose and personal values. I had two authors on here around values. And one of your values is your own integrity, right. And when you carry these kinds of things in, you're vulnerable, and you have high integrity, and you determined your what your values are, you can stand there in that position. And regardless of that customer, you 10s of millions of dollars, you kind of stood up for yourself, you know, and you I recently listened to the podcast you did with Angela Duckworth with quite fervor. It was called the gritty road to growth. And in the podcast, I happened to be driving in the car at the time. And it Angela's speaks about her mother and her father, and how she looked at her mother as a champion, because really, her father was the king pan, she thought, right. But when she reevaluated things after father died, she really figured it out. Would you mind telling the story and what you learned about from Angela during that podcast, because that particular podcast to me, was really fascinating, because of the epiphany that Angela had between her mother or father. Listen,

Guy Kawasaki
when I did that interview, I had no idea that was coming. Okay. I mean, it's, it was not a scripted moment at all. I don't think even Angela intended to talk about that. Well, somehow she got to telling the story of how her father were setting these high high standards for her. And, you know, he wanted her to be a doctor or you know, something like that. And she wanted to be an educator. So, one great story before the great story is she tells her father she wants to be an educator and the father like ruminates about this overnight. And the next day, he comes to her and he says, Okay, you can be an educator, but I want you to be Secretary of Education of the United States, which I mean, I don't want to perpetuate any Asian stereotypes. But yeah, that's, that's a tiger dad. So she tells the story of how her her Tiger dad, you know, set these high standards for her, which, for most of her life, she thought this is the kind of the determining factor that drove her to succeed. But then, she really figured out her mother's about 90 Now she figured out that, you know, her mother was remarkable too. She left either China or Taiwan and came to America by herself to seek a better life. She's not speaking English. She made all these sacrifices. She wanted to be an artist, but she she sacrificed for her two kids. And, and, you know, with hindsight, Angela, realize that she made a lot of sacrifices to it wasn't just her father, who was the primary determinant of her success. So she tells a story that her father passed away. And now her mother has this kind of freedom and she now at 90 wants to realize her dream of being an artist. She's in a assisted living house, and she went to the director of the house and said, You know, I want another room. And he said, Well, what's the matter with the room? You have? Don't you like it? She goes, No, I love it. I just I want another room and I'm gonna make that my studio. That was you know, 90 years old assisted living, you're asking for another room to make an Artists studio. I mean, how cool is that you? You really, you can't get much cooler than that. That

Greg Voisen
was a, I want to just tell all my listeners go to guys podcasts, we'll put a link, and especially that one, because it was so moving for me for to understand the realization of really the contribution and the sacrifices her mother had made. Because her father was so strong, she always thought her father was the strongest one, she really found out her mother was the strongest one. And I think in many of these families, you will find that out. We don't give enough credit from that side. You know, uh, you, you basically with these 200 people, Jane Goodall, Stacey, Abrams, but this Olivia Giuliani Giuliani was an interesting one. And the interview was with all these remarkable people, but her story, which is so compelling, and a great example of someone who was trying to make a difference on abortion rights. Can you just paraphrase that story for our listeners? Because I don't think many people know who Olivia is. But the reality the difference she made with you're talking about wanting to make a difference? Huge difference. Yep.

Guy Kawasaki
So Olivia Giuliana is about a 20 year old political activist from Houston, Texas. And this is a great story. It's It's sad that a story like this even exists in America. So this congressman from Florida named Matt Gaetz, he made a speech at a conservative gathering. And he said it in the speech something to the effect of it. Uh, why is it that the short, fat ugly women who look like thumbs are the ones always trying to get abortion rights when they're the least likely to have sex and get pregnant? I mean, I, you know, you just your head explodes to think that a congressman would lower himself that law. I mean, you can't get much lower than that. Yeah, I

Greg Voisen
agree. I agree.

Guy Kawasaki
So, so when he said that, Olivia tweeted, I'm five foot 11. Without shoes, I'm six, three with shoes. And I like to stand tall so that men like you know you where you stand. Okay. And so then, Matt gates responded with something like dander raised. In other words, I got under your skin, Olivia. And Olivia turn that interaction around into a fundraising effort for abortion rights. And she raised two and a half million dollars off that exchange. And I just think that that is one of the greatest stories I've ever heard. Oh, Jesus. I mean, you know, have we gone so low that a congressman has to pick on a 18 or 19 year old kid from Houston, Texas, I mean, I, one of the things I learned in my book is that people who are remarkable, they do not punch down. Right? See people punch down, that person is not remarkable. Just cross that person off your list.

Greg Voisen
Right? I was going to show the listeners on here, but go just get the book. Because in here, he has some great pictures of all of these remarkable people really, and they are remarkable. And like I said, 200 people, the interviewed for this, and he put as many as he could in the book. And, you know, there's one thing that you said during that interview with Angela, that kind of stuck in my mind, you said, you know, you have a chapter on adopting this growth mindset. And you mentioned that you're not a remarkable hockey player or surfer. And you mentioned that you took up sports at the ages of 44 and 60, respectively, meaning surfing at 60. What do you want our listeners to know about starting something because this goes back to Angela's mother. She held off doing a lot. She's 90 years old now. Right? And you put the two and two together and she says I'm going to have my own art studio. So knowing that it's never too late to begin and adopting this growth mindset, what would you want to let the listeners walk away with because I think a lot of people guy allow things to they're fearful. Yeah, if there's only one thing, the biggest thing is fear that gets in the way of them accomplishing something they'd like to do, right? Whether it's doing a bungee jump, or it's skiing down a double black diamond, or it's any of the Just kind of things that you want to do. Tell us a little bit more about your own fears of surfing. By

Guy Kawasaki
the way, I would not do either of those two things. But that's a side discussion. So yeah, I took up the ice hockey at the age of 44. I'm from Hawaii, so I had literally never skated before. And, you know, in Hawaii, we don't exactly have a lot of pond hockey and we have shaved ice, but we don't have, you know, Pong the ice. And then I took up surfing at 60 because my daughter took up surfing. And I think that that is you know, a true testament to a growth mindset because most people don't take up hockey at 44, much less surfing at 60. And I really learned these lessons from Carol Dweck Carol Dweck, is the mother of the growth mindset. And she's a professor at Stanford. And this this book mindset that she were wrote, is huge influence upon me, you know, not just in terms of sports, but you know, when you are tasting that when an author tells you to read somebody else's book, there is no more sincere form of flattery. So I'm going to tell you two books to read. One is Mindset by Carol Dweck DW e CK. The other book is called if you want to write by Brenda unit, the u e, LA and D. And Brenda humans book basically says if you want to write right now, many of you may not be writers, but just substitute whatever you're interested in their programming, moviemaking, you know, painting, whatever you want. And so I think part of the growth mindset is you got to get past the naysayers and these so called experts. All right, I like to combine a term and two terms, schmuck and experts makes SHM expert experts. So these experts tell you, you know, you can't write you don't have a PhD in English, you've never taken a course in creative writing, you're not a writer, well, that's a shame expert for you. Because that person should not be what's in your head, limiting what you can do. You never let somebody else limit what you can do. And so I think that's a very important lesson about, you know, embracing vulnerability and taking that risk, whether it's surfing or riding or ice hockey. Very, very important that the lessons.

Greg Voisen
Well, those are two great books. And like you said, it's a great honor for you to mention those twos. But the Carolyn DUAC are the Carol Dweck book, I'm sure many of my listeners know. But if you haven't read it, read, go back and reread it because the value that's in that book is truly all the studies she did as a psychologist. It's amazing. It really is. And it's something that you'll walk away with a new mindset, the growth mindset. First,

Guy Kawasaki
let me make it even better for you all. Okay, Carol Dweck had a protege named Mary Murphy and I interviewed Mary Murphy after the book was done. Mary Murphy is also professor of psychology. And she came up with this brilliant idea, insight. Insight, really an insight is that, you know, Carol Dweck talks about the mindset, which is really in your head, right? You're not a writer, or you are a writer. And there's these Shrek spurts, which are external, but they affect your brain and, obviously, or not, obviously, but one of the big factors in coming, overcoming a fixed mindset is overcoming your own self imposed negativity. Okay, anyway, so the growth mindset is about what's in your head. But Mary Murphy has pointed out that you also need to compensate for the environment that you're in. So if you have a growth mindset, but you're in an organization with a fixed mindset, you're gonna have a lot of problems, because the fixed mindset organization doesn't give you the ability to progress and to learn, they think that whatever you are, is what you're going to remain. So a very important aspect of the growth mindset is to also read a book by Mary Murphy that talks about the implications of the environment that you're in, because it needs both to truly succeed.

Greg Voisen
Well, you now have given three great recommendations and I'm gonna give you one you might know this gentleman, and it is I just did an interview with him and his name is Dr. James, Dottie, do t y at Stanford. He's the head of compassion and altruism. But he is a neuroscientist who just wrote a book called Mind magic. And I think he'd be somebody that you should certainly. Okay. And I will, I'm after we get off here, I'll do it. For all my listeners. We'll be posting that pod cast on or about May 5, with Dr. Dottie a, you know, everybody knows Brene Brown. I mean, you've been on the stage with her, I'm sure. And you speak about vulnerability, and everybody talks about vulnerability. But sometimes I will say males have a challenge being as vulnerable as we should. And we face and we all face sale failures and setbacks along the way. Whether we want to admit it or not. What have been some of the setbacks and failures? And what have you learned from your own? And what advice would you provide our listeners so that they can be resilient despite setbacks? And then if you would give us some examples from the books, individuals which I picked out? Andrea Pete and Kristi Yamaguchi. Most people think Kristi Yamaguchi Well, she just ended up with an Olympic gold medal. They don't look at what she had to put into it and a setback she had in the process. And this this other one, Andrea, Pete, is really phenomenal, considering she had ALS, my goodness, gracious, you know. So

Guy Kawasaki
these are two remarkable women. So Kristi Yamaguchi, who we all know is this world champion figure skater Olympic goal. So this is a great story. She told me, which is in her first competition as a little kid, she finished 12th. And she went through her mom and said, Well, how come those other girls got ribbons? And I didn't. And her mom said, it's because you finished 12 Christi. And you know that I mean, I don't know if that was the single moment, but she figured out you got to pay the price. You know, you got to be you've got to show grit. And so Christie started just practicing hours every day and and you know, 10 or 15 years later, she's world champion. And, and I think that is a great story of what you have to do. I mean, if listen if being remarkable and making a difference were as easy as reading my book or Brenda humans book or Carol Dweck school, there wouldn't be a lot more remarkable people in the world, I'm telling ya. So that's the story. Now, I you know, we we need to, I think one of the ways that you overcome vulnerability and you view you know, embrace yourself is you listen to stories like that, and you think, you know, wow, Kristi Yamaguchi finished 12. In her first contest. I finished 12th In my first contest, maybe I can be like that, right? And then Andrea Lydell, Pete, about nine years ago, she was diagnosed with ALS and ALS, for those of you who are not familiar, usually kills the person in two to three years. So she's lived in a seven year on the usual expectancy now, when most people get ALS, or I think when most people would get a diagnosis like that. I don't know about you, but I would go into a deep funk. And I don't know if I'd ever come out of that funk. But Andrea decided that now that she's had this als diagnosis, she's going to complete a marathon in all 50 states. I mean, is that not a remarkable reaction? And she has actually pulled this off. And I'll tell you a great story about Andrea lado Pete that shows you the spirit and the strength of this woman's character. So you know, what better marathon to make your 50th marathon in the Boston Marathon? Right? I mean, that's, that's

Greg Voisen
this app. People can, they can actually see her if you're watching on video, I'm showing the page that she's on, which is 29. So, yeah. So so

Guy Kawasaki
she decides, you know, well, the best place to finish this. This challenge is the Boston Marathon. But she at this point, she rides a tricycle tricycle trike or you know,

Greg Voisen
three wheeled, right, they will buy, right?

Guy Kawasaki
And the Boston Marathon has many categories, but not for three wheeled bikes. So she applies to the Boston Marathon and the Boston Marathon turns her down because they don't have a category for the type of vehicle that she pedals. You know, I just like if you think about that for just 30 seconds, they have other categories for people with disabilities, but not that particular one. So, you know, it's not like, I don't think anybody was gonna say, Oh, my God that, you know, that's an illegal vehicle, throw her out of the race. Why didn't they just let her race like, right? Isn't that the point? But anyway, so she gets rejected from the Boston Marathon. And so what she did instead is she went to with her little team, and ran or bite the course, the day before the official Boston Marathon, so she could say she did that marathon and I gotta tell you, I just love that spirit. I'm very, you know, you're not letting me compete. I'll just do it on my own on a course before the official race. I mean, how great is

Greg Voisen
that? They I remember a story. And you probably remember this. I'm not certain because you've been on hundreds and hundreds of stages, maybe 1000s, speaking to audiences. And when I was at a meeting for the million dollar round team up table, a young man with no legs came out on stage, who was a weightlifter. And they he was competing in competitions, just like her. And they said, We don't have a category for somebody without legs, yet. He lifted more weight than anybody. Do. You know what I'm talking about. I don't remember the guy's name. I don't know this story. This, this was like blew me away. Because he was he doesn't walk across the stage, he uses his hands to move across the stage, obviously, right. And he's saying you can't believe they couldn't find a spot for me. Ultimately, he petitioned he got in, and he won the competition, right. So it just shows you That's remarkable. That is truly remarkable to go to that degree. Now, one of the things that you speak about and making a difference, as I was going through the book, I loved the story. You tell a story about the eucalyptus trees in your backyard, and your removal of these trees to plant oaks. And I just had Jim Cathcart on here this morning. And he said to say hi, by the way, and you know, his is about the Oaks. And he speaks a lot about he uses that analogy of the acorn. And so why is the story or this metaphor of planting acorns perfect for making a difference and being remarkable, because what you also said is you probably won't be here to see those oak trees, which I would probably say you're right. Actually make it to their maturity. Well, left histories, they grow like weeds.

Guy Kawasaki
Okay. This is a great story. So I live in Watsonville, California. And listen, I love a lot of things from Australia, believe it or not, I'm deaf and my cochlear implant is from Australia. I'm Chief Evangelist of a company from Australia. I have an external display from my laptop from Australia, a lot of good things come from Australia, but Eucalyptus is not one of them. Eucalyptus is an invasive species, it takes a lot of water to have weak root structures, so they fall over all the time. And more than anything else, they burn, they have these oils in them, so they burn very well. And so when your house is surrounded by eucalyptus trees, it's it's kind of like you're surrounded by dynamite. I could go off at any moment. I cut down a lot of eucalyptus trees. And now I'm left with this kind of bear Hill and I you know, and I see, I don't want to look over this bear Hill, like, you know, some apocalyptic thing just happened. So let's return this hill to its natural state and the natural native species there are here is Oak. So then I have to do all this research like how do you plant oaks? And I learned that yes, you can put in a sapling or a seedling but it's better to start from an acorn because when you put an acorn in the ground, I guess the tap root is better or something but anyway, an acorn will catch up to a sapling and a seedling so you know. Go get acorn so now I'm on this quest to go get acorns and believe it or not, not every oak tree drops acorns I got drive all over looking for acorns. I finally found I'll give you an inside tip if you if you want to emulate what I did in plant acorns. on University Avenue in Los Gatos, California, there's a lot of oak trees that drop a lot of acorns. I just said a Japanese guy collecting acorns there that was me. Okay, so now you you get your acorns and you bring them and you put them in waters because the ones that are dead float. So you throw out all the dead floaters and you keep the ones that sink and then you put them in your refrigerator for a few months to simulate winter because I don't know if somehow that triggers their growth and then after that you plant them and and you hope that they take root but I'll tell you, I've planted hundreds of acorns and I got about 10 seedlings out of it. And then you got to worry about deer and you got to worry about you know everything else and and after all that in 20 years they'll be oaks that provides shade. And as you pointed out, I'm 69. So best case 89 I might be able to sit under the old that made that shade. But you know, odds are, I'll be gone. So that that is also like a big moment in one's life, when you realize you're doing something that's not for you. This is no way it's going to be for me, this is for my kids and grandkids. But anyway, okay, so now you know more about oaks and acorns, as you'll probably ever wanted. But the point here is that, if you want to make a difference, it's, it's very difficult to specify, you know, this is exactly my path. This is exactly what I should do. This is, you know, this is exactly the piece of software I should write this is exactly the book I should write. My experience is that you have to plant a lot of orcs to get a few old trees. It's a law of big numbers. And so the message there is, if you want to make a difference, you got to plant a lot of seeds.

Greg Voisen
And what comes from that, for me is you can't be afraid to fail. You've just got to go do you know, I was speaking with Jim Cathcart. I said, Jim, you're the guy. He's 78 Now or something. And I said, you just keep showing up. I keep seeing you all over, because you did show up. And I think that is part of it. When you show up. And I want to talk about speaking with the listeners, you have a chapter in the book about doing good shit, and how doing the right thing is needed the simplest nor the most practical option. And maybe that was when you started the beginning of the book, telling Steve Jobs that you didn't trust in me there. But that was maybe not the most radical, but you did. But that making a difference meant there is a light at the end of the tunnel. How though? Did you discern and follow your inner compass, because that's really true. When you get an idea or thought you're like the idea guy, you've had tons of ideas. They haven't all worked out. But I saw the list on your website of all the companies you've been involved in. But there's probably a list three times as long as a company that isn't there, that you that you tried something and it didn't work and you fail, right? Well,

Guy Kawasaki
you know, listen, I started my career. In the jewelry manufacturing business. I'm ending my career as Chief Evangelist of Canva. Now, right after the jewelry business, I went to Apple. And so you know, when I tell people, you know, what's your background I sell I'm Chief Evangelist of Apple Chief Evangelist of Canva. Board, after Sadie's Benz Wikipedia, you know, I only talk about the successes. I'm not stupid, right? I mean, I'll tell you something in Silicon Valley, we throw a lot of shade up against the wall, a very small part of it sticks. And then we go up to what stuck and we point the paint the bullseye around that and we declare victory. We say I hit the bullseye. Well, let me tell you some advice. You can always hit the bull's eye, if you paint the bull's eye after you shoot the arrow. And I think that that's a very important concept. And Steve Jobs addressed this in his commencement speech at Stanford, and he said, Listen, you can only connect the dots looking backwards. It's it's impossible to connect them. We're looking forward. And, you know, like, I quit law school, I quit Moscow after two weeks. It's not like I had a plan, right? I mean, I didn't say Oh, guy, you know, the strategic move right now is to quit law school that's gonna pay in the long run. I quit law school because I was miserable. And yet, I can look back and say, Well, that was a really good thing. I did that. And maybe it's rationalization. But I think that, you know, people should give themselves a break, and especially, especially people who are Gen Z listening to this, you're going to be alive till you're 90 or 95, you got a lot of time and don't be afraid of taking a lot of samples and making a lot of mistakes. And, Gary, you could make the argument that the opposite of success is not failure. The opposite of success is learning. And as long as you learning and you don't make the same failure twice, you're on a path, you're on a path to make a difference.

Greg Voisen
Well, like you obviously could speak with us all day long about writing our goals. But you learned the most from this by GARRETT MCNAMARA the guy used to serve with Yeah, right. Yeah, he says most people do it wrong. And I took this from the book, but could you tell the listeners about a plan, the roadmap and the suggestion way there. Now McNamara tells you to go go to Eureka is whether this chapter is get beyond Eureka my for my listeners. Well,

Guy Kawasaki
it's interesting that here's a great juxtaposition that I bet no one in the history of mankind has made it. So on the one hand, we have GARRETT MCNAMARA. He is the star of the HBO series 100 foot wave. So his idea of a fun time is going out and surfing 100 foot ways in PNAS. Okay. Now, at the other end of the spectrum, we have Julia Cameron, and Julia Cameron wakes up every day and she writes this journal entry longhand. And I'm telling you that multiple times people talk about, you know, yes, you need to have goals, but you need to write them down. There's something about writing things down. That makes you more careful, more knowledgeable, more cogent, more dedicated. Writing your goals down is a very important thing. And and I'll tell you one more lesson from GARRETT MCNAMARA, which is that you know how people talk about faking it until you make it and you know, trying to put on this tough face and all that he didn't say that at all, what he said you need to do is not fake it till you make it, you need to face your fears. So Garrett, McNamara 100 foot wave surfer. He said for a long time, he would not go out in anything that's 10 or 12 feet, he was afraid to do that until his friends forced him to do it to face his fears. So he faced his fears, got past the 10 to 12 Mark, and then kept going. And now he's, you know, the biggest waves in the world. Right. So I know, I'm not advocating that all of you become big wave surfers. But let's take something that many of us share, which is the fear of public speaking. So the way to get past the fear of public speaking, guess what is to face your fears. So you just need to get out there and speak, speak, speak dozens and dozens of times. And I have spoken hundreds of times. And I'm telling you right now that I'm the GARRETT MCNAMARA of public speaking, I don't fear anything about public speaking anymore. And that just comes with repetition. So if you want to make a difference and be remarkable, you need to face your fears.

Greg Voisen
Well, one of those things for Garrett, and for you, and every time you keep facing that fear, it's almost like sitting down at a piano. Once you conquer that piano, you know, it's like, Hey, I've practice this enough. I have practice speaking, so that you feel comfortable. A lot of people will say, well, even after 100 times being on the stage, I still get stage fright. And you're like saying, Well, no, I don't really see why you do that you don't have to have stage fright. Because there's really nothing to be afraid of. I always say, if you speak to an audience, like they're your best friend in the movie theater when you're whispering to them about the movie. That's really what you want to do.

Guy Kawasaki
I think the key to public speaking is telling stories, right? Yes, stories are the key to good public speakers. Now. If you think about it, just think about you're afraid of public speaking. But if you were sitting at a bar, and having beers, or you're sitting at a dinner table with your friends, and you tell the story about how you know you did this, or you did that, or you saw somebody do this or you know, you read Carol Dweck book or something, if you're just talking to your friends telling them story. Are you nervous? Are you scared that they might not applaud? Are you scared of you know, making a miscommunication or misstep? Not at all, you're crying out loud, you're telling stories to your friends. And that should be your mindset. When you make a speak, you're telling stories to your friends. And I think that, you know, people need to get through their head, this the most important fact, which is, the audience wants you to succeed. They don't want you to fail. Because if you think about it, if someone in the audience wants you to fail, it means that they're saying, I want to waste my time. I want to waste my time, I want to see that guy fail, which is ridiculous. Everybody considers their time important. So they want you to succeed, because a good speech means that they learn something they don't want, you have to fail.

Greg Voisen
No, that's true. Whether it's a TEDx talk, or it's speaking at the local high school to somebody, they're all the same. And I think the important thing is you You mentioned it, tell a good story. You know, they always say, tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them and then retell them again, right, or whatever that is. And then in your case, we want to insert great stories. And when you start with stories, it's relatable to people. And I think the key is stories are relatable. And I want you talking about telling stories, I have two questions still left in our podcast. And one of them is there isn't been anybody probably that's been put up on your chapter, sell your dreams to speak to who calls VC, whoever it is to try and raise money and pitch. And you said, the listen for our listeners who maybe are out there saying, hey, I need to get money for my idea. You're the guy. Let me tell you, who's that guy is the guy. How is it that most people get the whole pitch process wrong? You actually specifically mentioned the reason why. And you're you, I want you to tell this because I'm about ready to tell it. But I want you to tell it.

Guy Kawasaki
I'm sitting here with my fingers crossed, thank God, what did I say? Uh, well.

Greg Voisen
What you said was, no, no, don't tell me. Oh, you know, okay, we're

Guy Kawasaki
gonna take, we're gonna wait, I'm on high risk kind of guys. I hope I said that. What many people get wrong about a pitch from the get go, which ruins the whole pitch. If you get this part wrong, you, you, you, you know, you're you're digging yourself out of a hole, which is that the purpose of a pitch is not to get a signature on the bottom line. It's not that they asked you for wiring instructions. It's not that you you shock and awe and overwhelmed them in one hour. So they're just turned to Jelly, and they just all they want to do is give you money. Okay? That's not the purpose of a pitch, the purpose of a pitch is to not get eliminated and get to the next step, which is more discussion and due diligence. Now, if you get this wrong, and you think the purpose of a pitch is to use shock and awe, and get them into a money investing, check writing stage, then the what happens with your brain is now you think, Okay, I gotta get him into shock. And also more is better. So instead of 10 slides, I'm going to use 60. And I'm going to have five people for my team there. So they can see that I have a team and all these five people are going to have a speaking role. And you know, it's like, just it just compounds the crap upon the crap. You just remember, you just don't want to be eliminated, and that You declare victory if you're not eliminated. That's the key.

Greg Voisen
I hope I said, You got exactly right. I've already passed the test, you pass the test. Okay, one last question and the book up again, for my audience. Think remarkable with Guy Kawasaki, the nine paths to transform your life and make a difference. Truly, this is a fantastic book, I want all my listeners to go get this. And I want to ask you this one last question. You know, after people turn the last page of this book, you know, what is the one action or thought you hope sticks with them as they kind of move forward in their in their lives? We've talked about a lot today, from Angela Duckworth to Carol Dweck, too. You name it, and you gave three great books that my listeners can read on top of your book, but what is it that you really simply want people to walk away from here?

Guy Kawasaki
Well, I want people to walk away simply knowing that anybody and I do mean literally anybody can make a difference and can make the world a better place. I don't want people to walk away thinking that oh my god, I have to be Jane Goodall or Steve Jobs to you know, to be remarkable and make a difference. Anybody can make a difference. And if you make a difference, you will be considered remarkable. And so this this book, in my podcast is not called rich people or famous people. It's called remarkable people. And I want people to make a difference. And you know, that's the fundamental message. I want to leave that. Listen, when I die. I want people to say that I helped them make a difference. And that's, that's the most important thing I could say right now.

Greg Voisen
In the world we live in today. We need more people to make a difference when they need to be remarkable because they need to do some of the things that you've done, which is stand up to us others, we live in such a time right now, you and I could talk forever, about the divisiveness and, you know, what social media has done and all the other things we could talk about. But more importantly, is, I'd say, taken action. You know, people asked me, you know, Greg, why do you do this podcast, you've been doing this podcast for 18 years, I say, number one, because it helps people to gain clarity about what it is that they'd like from people like you. Number two, my whole show, I basically, the donations that I receive in go to compassionate communications Foundation, and I'm going to put a plug in right now. Because they come from authors. And they basically are saying, hey, help the homeless and Ukrainian refugees, I buy bicycles for the kids that are coming out of Ukraine, going to Poland, the resource that I have on the second thing I do is I go on the street with $100 gift cards, and I give them away to people who are in need. And so the point of it is compassionate communications Foundation, is the sole reason I do this podcast is so that I can let people get clear about what their purpose is and their dream in life. And then they can go do some of the things. And if somebody like me, you know, I say small little me can make my own little difference every year, year in and year out. Anybody out there can do that. Right? Anybody? So, and

Guy Kawasaki
you know what? It takes all of us doing little things. We cannot wait for this, you know, magic Savior to do this. It's us.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it is? Well, I want to give you kudos for the book. I also shout out to Madison as well. Great book, you guys. Great compilation of putting things together, you guys gave me 95 questions to ask, there was no way I was gonna be able to get all 95. And actually, if you noticed, I only used one of your questions. And all the others were ones that I came up with. But that's what makes for a good interview.

Guy Kawasaki
Listen, in the chat, I just put you a link for you. So there are some people who you know, they're not readers. So working with Canva. We've created a free lesson online lesson. People can go through this lesson to learn how to be remarkable. So you don't like shooting myself in the foot. You don't need to buy the book. You can also take this course. But if you take the course properly, I would bet that you're going to be even more convinced to buy the book. No

Greg Voisen
Namaste to you, man. appreciate having you on the show.