Greg Voisen
Welcome back to another episode of Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of the podcast. And joining us from Summerland, California is doctor, got a PhD, Bella DePaulo. Bella, good day, how are you doing?

Dr. Bella DePaulo
Great. Thanks so much for inviting me. I love talking about this.

Greg Voisen
Well, we're gonna be talking about single at heart. This is the book that dela recently released the power of freedom and heartfelt joy of a single wife. And I think this was a topic that's, you know, probably not after take an opportunity to really look at this, and I want to tell them a bit about you, Bella. Bella DePaulo, PhD is a leading expert on single life, and has been described by the Atlantic as America's foremost thinker and writer on the single experience. Dr. DePaulo coined the term single at heart, her TEDx talk, which has 1.6 million views. What no one ever told you about people who are single, is fantastic. I'm gonna encourage all my listeners to go up there and take a look at it. She's the author of singled out and how we live now. Among other titles. She has written and living single blog for Psychology Today since 2008, has been published in the New York Times, The Washington Post, Time Magazine, The Atlantic and many other outlets. She's also appeared on shows including The today's show, the CNN, American morning, CBS the morning, the Good Morning America show and she has been interviewed on NPR many times, as well as on podcast podcast by CNN and the Atlantic. She has a BA from Vassar College and a PhD from Harvard. She has lectured nationally, internationally. And after two decades as a professor of psychology at the University of Virginia, Dr. DiPaolo moved to the west coast where she's currently an academic affiliate in the department of psychology and Brain Sciences at the University of California, Santa Barbara, where she lives in Summerland which is close to Santa Barbara, right. Correct. All right. Well, we're gonna put a link to Amazon to this book single at heart. And, you know, Bella, obviously, being someone who's been single, I think, is it not 70 years?

Dr. Bella DePaulo
Yes, I'm 70. And I have always been single, and I always will be single.

Greg Voisen
Well, so you have a lot to tell our listeners, for those who've debated whether or not they should stay single or are but you have been single, for, as we said, 70 years, you have this TEDx talk, which has been listened to at this point by 1.6 million listeners and viewers, and you speak about the benefits of being single single, can you tell the listeners more about the benefits? Because I think for women, there's this stigma that's associated? Well, you got to get married, you got to have kids, and you got to raise the kids and whatever. I think for men, maybe not as much of a stigma, although I have a son who's 40, who's still single, and he kind of, I think thinks what's wrong with me?

Dr. Bella DePaulo
Yes, you know, that's good. We always believe that women get it worse, and maybe they do, but things get stigmatized too. And especially now when they get stereotyped as in cells, which you know, a few of them die, but vast majority are not. And many single men I live in very mature, fall psychological enrich lives, they are people we should look up to and emulate and celebrate rather than stigmatize.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. And you know, we have more and more younger, young adults choosing not to get married, I think than ever before. Yes. You cite research from over 20,000 people in more than 100 countries who are embracing the life and you state that they're happier, happier, and better situated to navigate old age. Considering the recent stat Artistics regarding loneliness, that is one in two adults and this is a recent stat that I pulled off of the internet, and it's all out it's out there everywhere. Then they feel alone sometimes or always, and how loneliness This affects us emotionally. Now, what do you address kind of this conundrum of singleness and loneliness? I know they're not the same, but I think people think they might be the same.

Dr. Bella DePaulo
Right? Yeah. So first, let me tell you, about the single people my most interested in me named in the title of my book single at heart. People who are single at heart love being single, they are happy and flourishing, because they're single, not in spite of it, being single is how they live their best life, their most authentic, rich, psychologically rich, meaningful and fulfilling life. And what I found, when I research, these people who are single at heart, is that they love their solitude, they cherish the time they have to themselves. While that turns out to be a superpower. Because if you like being alone, if you find it relaxing, or enriching, or great for productivity, or great for reflection, then you are very unlikely to be lonely. And what I found was that, even during the pandemic, which was so challenging in so many ways, people who were single at heart, I had certain advantages, because they like having alone time, and they are ready had a life that was filled with the kinds of activities that you can pursue on your own, like walking or running or reading or gardening or, you know, all sorts of things like that. So, and then also, when you like your solitude, that means that you are not going to end up one of those, the caricature of an old person who's feels isolated and lonely. So the single at heart are not part of that statistic that I don't think there's a good half of the statistics, so are very unlikely to feel lonely. Well,

Greg Voisen
and I think the key is single at heart, you're the one that coined this term. And I think it's one thing to be single and it's another to if you would define single at heart, and why are single people happier in older age than those who are not?

Dr. Bella DePaulo
Yeah, you know, single at heart are people who love being single, and they want to stay single, the risk to them is not what would happen if they did not ever put a romantic partner at the center of their life. But what they would miss if they did, they would miss being who they really are, they would miss getting to live the life that is most authentic and most fulfilling?

Greg Voisen
Well, it's not that you're advocating that everybody run around and stay single, what you're saying is, understand who you are. And if you are single at heart, then be okay with it versus trying to shift. And I want you to talk about addressing this relentless pressure from the outside world to have people couple as you say, couple up, and sometimes it's wrong with us, if we have not married Can you address the myth about the commitment phobia?

Dr. Bella DePaulo
Right? Yeah. So there are some people who try romantic relationships, they try them over and over again, and somehow, you know, it just never works with them maybe really are what you might call Commitment phobia in, you know, in the slang version, not the official medical version. But other people are just grind to fit into the romantic relationship mode, because that's what they think they should be doing, when in fact, that's not who they are. They're really single at heart, and they will be most fulfilled, if they create a life. That is a single life that doesn't put a romantic partner at the center of it. So when they are feeling like oh, this, you know, no relationship is ever working. It's not because there's something wrong with them like Commitment phobia. It's because there's something right with them, that they're not acting on. They're not acknowledging who they really are, and they're not living authentically and once they break through that I understand who they are, and realize that it can be a really good thing with lots of advantages and strengths, to be single at heart and embrace your single life, then things can really change for the better.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and you know, like you said, this isn't about being celibate. This is about basically understanding who you are, it doesn't mean, you can't have partners along the way, or people that you would like to share your life with, or share your sexuality with however that might be. But you know, you have some insights in the book and key moments when some of the stories that you tell in the book, and you tell a lot of them, where someone discovers the joy and empowerment of being single. Could you pick one of those stories that kind of stands out for you about somebody that you told the story about in the book, that they just had this elation? Once they discovered the finger at hearts?

Dr. Bella DePaulo
Yes, there are lots of stories like that one I will tell you about is Kristen's. And she got married, because that's what she thought she should do. And it didn't work. And she got divorced. And then she came out as a lesbian. And then she tried dating as a lesbian. And then she realized that she doesn't want to be any kind of couple. And once she embraced her single life, understood myself as single at heart. Wow, she is just living this wonderfully rich, full, happy, meaningful life. Yeah,

Greg Voisen
you know, it is an opportunity for people to explore deeply with inside themselves. And you know, you talked about solitude a few minutes ago, and you dedicated a chapter in the book to solitude. And can you speak with the listeners about the distinction between loneliness and solid solitude? And what the differences are? I think I know. But the reality is, this might be a good one for our listeners to hear

Dr. Bella DePaulo
your so loneliness is a painful experience of not getting the kind and quality of human connection that you crave. Solitude can be something entirely different. It can be mean being alone and cherishing the time you have to yourself, I found some great quotes over the ages of what people say about the difference between them. So for example, Ellis Koehler said, Being solitary is being alone, well, being alone and curiously immersed in doings of your own choice, aware of the fullness of your presence, rather than the absence of others. And Anna Quinn said, they're so different loneliness and solitude. One is something missing. The other is something found.

Greg Voisen
Oh, I like that one. That's a that's a really good one. Well, I remember Thomas Moore was on this show. And he had been a monk before but wrote a lot of books, I'm sure you might know him. And he wrote a book about solitude. And it they the book was so compelling for me to take a deeper look at what solitude can bring out in you, not make you recluse it makes you a more aware person. It makes you a more loving and compassionate person understanding. Because you're getting in touch with those feelings. And I think, whether you're in contemplation, meditation, solitude, let's maybe find all of those at the same place. There's an intersection there, where you're reaching a higher level of consciousness, a higher level of being to now you have a great story in the book about Cara, and how she really made friends but did not have the one meaning partner speak if he would about the true friendships, and we don't have to depend on the one to be there for us in times of need.

Dr. Bella DePaulo
Yeah, let me read from you a few sentences of my of what Carla told me about her friends. She said, these women are the absolute foundation of my current life because of them. I was comfortable buying a house by myself and putting down roots somewhere, because of them, I am inspired to build a life. That is truly what I want, not just what people expect, because of them, I am finally picking up my camera again after years of fear, and making something of that passion, because of them, I am happier now than I have ever. And I think that's just such a beautiful Ode to friendship. And I think it speaks to the point you asked me about, about having the ones instead of the one, there is so much made of finding that one person, the one, when building your life around that person and have having that person be, as some of the song lyrics say, I want to be your everything. And then you kind of see that not all couples do this. But some do see that person as you know, your confidant, your best friend, your sex partner, your co Vacation Planner, your co parent, if you have kids, and the fulfiller of all your wishes and needs and dreams, and to put on one person. And if you really do that, and again, not all couples do. And you demote your friends and other relatives pay less attention to them. Once you get married, which there's evidence that that happens in on the average, then you really at risk, what if you know you're in a bad place with your partner or you divorced or your partner dies, then all of a sudden, you don't have this whole circle of friends, relatives, because you demoted them, you put them on the back burner to focus on your romantic partner and people who are single, especially people who are single at heart don't do that, you know, they invest in their friends. And yeah, having the ones instead of the one also gives you a certain resilience. Because if let's say you're sick, or you need help, for some reason, you don't need to worry about whether one particular person is able and willing to help you, you know, different people can help with, what they're good at and what they like helping you with and when they're available. And so I think it's some Oh, and this even as a red suit series of studies that asked people how do you go to when you want to celebrate something? And how do you talk to when you feel badly about something? And how do you talk to when you feel angry, and when other kinds of emotions too. And they found that people who had more emotion specialist, they had the ones instead of the one that went to different people for different needs, they were happier with their lives, than the people who tried to get all of their emotional needs met by just one person. I

Greg Voisen
would say that's true, because you know, you when you have a variety of people's intellect, emotional stability, that you can draw on, you can literally have a confidant that you can share it, you know, I think the thing that comes to mind is the muse. Right? But the reality is, is that you you have that. Now, can you address the psychological pressures and the cultural mandates around parenting, especially as a woman? You know, here's one of those things where, you know, single at heart, okay, but now you've got the world outside saying, Hey, you're supposed to get married and have kids or even if you're not gonna get married, you're supposed to have kids. You mentioned that women are supposed to want to have kids just as they are supposed to be coupled. How do you single out heart individuals maneuver this social and cultural stigma?

Dr. Bella DePaulo
Well pick people who are single at heart are less likely to have kids than people who are not single at heart, but many of them do have kids and they find it a very rewarding experience. They often describe a special bond they have with their children, and how their children are protected from the kinds of fighting and coldness and other kinds of conflict that can happen in two parent household so they're, they're protected from that and I Another thing is that, you know, women especially, are pressured, that they're supposed to want to be coupled, and they're supposed to want to have kids. And for the kids part of it, some women and some men just really don't want to have kids. And yet, there's this pressure, especially young women that they should want to let it's supposed to be, you know, the natural way to be. And the way some people, some women who don't want kids deal with that, is that they will fuse about the kids in their life, they'll say, oh, you know, I have these great nieces and nephews, and I spent all this time with them, or I'm a teacher, or, you know, and they talk about their love of kids. And the rural kids happen a lot. And that is often very authentic, it's very real. But sometimes, there's also an element of feeling like they need to justify their life without children. Like, they have to say, I'm not some freak, I love kids, I don't have them. But but I'm okay, you know, don't look down at me. And then other people will just, you know, don't just own it. I don't want kids, and they won't try to justify it or, or apologize for it or explain it. And I think that's really good if you can own your desire not to have kids. And if you don't want kids, you might love kids, you might not love them. But either way, it's your choice.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's your just exemplifying the fact that you don't have to fit a certain mold to be okay. Right? I think society has had that mold for eons and eons. And we have seen a lot of it in recent years, I'm gonna say probably in the last 30 years, change and shift drastically. And I think that's for the good for both the people who were like, hey, I want to be single at art. So how can being single at heart impact one's professional and personal growth trajectories? Because that was another one where the world looks at you a certain way. And especially with professional growth for both men and women, there could be an issue. So what what comments do you have about that? I

Dr. Bella DePaulo
love that question. But let me say something first about what you brought up previously. And that is that this whole project, this single heart project, it's focusing on single people, and those who like being single and encouraging them to own their single lives and to realize their strength and value to being single. But it's not just it's part of a whole bigger project of allowing people to be who they really are. It's like, when, you know, when people who weren't heterosexual started to feel freer to own their lives and not try to pretend to be someone they're not. It's it's consistent with when women started to bang on the backs that they were, what they were locked into, and be more of themselves rather than a caricature of what a woman should be. And so single I heart is also about, you know, people who, who are coupled at heart who are powerfully drawn to a couple of life they should be able to live that life to, but there's no problem there because they're already celebrated and respected. So so they're good. So I'm trying to stand up for the people who are less often validated in the love of their lives with the overall big picture goal of having societies where everyone feels free to live authentically, because that's where we get our personal growth for. So to get to your question about professional lives and personal growth to people who are single at heart often use their freedom to do what they find most meaningful. So they might choose more meaningful work over more lucrative work if they can't have both and they get to follow their passions and commit to their to their jobs if they love what they're doing, which I do. I mean, my whole professional life is standing up for people who are single doing research writing speaking. And, and I love that and I think the the way that some people describe that as, oh, you're married to your work as if that's a bad thing. But I get profound fulfillment from my work. And, and so I don't, you know, I, I don't feel like that's a bad thing. I think it's good that I love my work. And I think when other people do too, that's great too. And you don't have to have work that you love. I mean, being single at heart is really leading an authentic life. And if work isn't what you care about the most, you might do what you need to do just to pay your bills. And then in your time that you have maybe pursue your passions, like social justice, or do the kinds of things that you find fulfilling that might be gardening, or volunteering or spending time with your friends, or whatever I think, and about the personal growth. Oh, I love that question. There was a study of adults in midlife, and they found people over the course of five years in the middle of their adult life. So they looked at people who were married the whole time, and people who were single, the whole time, and the people who were single, the whole time, we're more likely to agree with statements such as, for me, life has been a continual process of learning, change, and gross. And for the people who stayed married, they were more likely to agree with statements like I gave up trying to make big improvements in my life a long time ago. And again, all these studies, always, yeah, all the studies are always based on averages. So there are always exceptions. You know, some married people are have a lot of personal growth, and some single people don't. But on average, it's the single people who are growing and learning.

Greg Voisen
You know, while you were speaking, I was reflecting on recently released movie about Leonard Bernstein, who was transsexual and other or was bi, who is playing, and, you know, his personal growth and professional growth. Obviously, when you got deep within his head, there was this issue associated, have you seen

Dr. Bella DePaulo
the movie? No, it's on my list, I really want to Okay,

Greg Voisen
so in his head, he was always trying to cover up for who he was, he could kind of never be himself for quite a long time. And finally, he did become himself because he was married, he had two kids, and he had a wife, and yet he was bisexual. And he liked man, I think more than women. And then my point was at the end of the story was that he lived a tormented life in, in a big degree, as a result of this conundrum, between living in two worlds, right. But in one sense, he was never single, Never wanted to give up the married life to have the other wife, which was different. And it was interesting at best. So I'm going to tell my listeners, if you haven't seen that movie, that'd be a good one to go see. How do you think the concept of being happily single has evolved over the past decade? And where do you see the trends headed in the future?

Dr. Bella DePaulo
You do, for a long time being single was really stigmatized, and much more than it is now still isn't that as we've been discussing, especially if you want to stay single. But it's falling in some ways, in a very good way, in that more and more people are single are staying single, are happily single. And some are even celebrating that. So you sometimes read about the single positivity movement. So that's a really good thing. And I think that will continue. But people who are single, especially people who love being single, and want to stay single, are challenging, cherished world views. People really want to believe that marriage is the Royal Route to happiness and health and fulfillment, and that you can only be truly happy if you get married or at least become part of a committed couple. And it's a powerful, powerful worldview because it suggests that if you get married, all the pieces of your life will fall in place. and all your dreams will come true. I mean, who wouldn't want that to be true. And so people who are single and whose love being single, are challenging that. And what that means is that, along with the positive evolution of more people staying single, and living happily single, there will be backlash. And I think we are already seeing that there are so many opinion pieces lately about how, oh, you know, your, your marriage is more important than your job and you better have a two parent family or your kids are going to suffer? And why aren't people getting married? What's wrong with them? What can we do to make more people get married. And it's a way of positioning marriage and couples life as the normal, natural and superior way to be. And it's a way of denigrating and stigmatizing people who stay single. And so that is, when we get a lot of that pro marriage rah rah stuff, not just from one side of the political aisle with both sides. That is an indication not that we're so secure, about the place of marriage, and romantic coupling in our lives. But because we are so insecure, in the 19, in 1956, which was when women and men in the US married Ethel youngest age on record, and stayed married and really got divorce, then you would never find a book that was about you know, why I love being married, are you and find any articles about how it really is better to be buried and focus on that not on your career, because it was taken for granted. The reason we have this cultural conversation now is because that worldview, that way of thinking as a couple of life or married life as the superior life is under attack.

Greg Voisen
It I mean, it makes perfect sense. And the kind of flip side of the coin is that both political parties, you mentioned the parties. You know, when you look at being single and saying, Well, do they have children? You said more single people have less children? There is in in some countries and in this country, no. But in some countries, this advocating to get married to have children because we're below zero population growth. So from an economic standpoint, they're wanting people to actually have children, not in third world countries, because in third world countries, we have overpopulation we have under population. But I would say overall, at 8 billion people peeking this planet, we've got way too many people period, no matter no matter what the political move is to try and create more population because then that helps the economy grow. No, and I think if you got into the Freakonomics of this, and I guarantee you there is a Freakonomics around single nests versus being married and go on. You won't, you might find some interesting statistics around the economics of the freakanomics. So you cover a lot of important points in the book. If you were to leave the listeners with three takeaways being single at heart. What would they be those three big takeaways that you'd like and buy it from my listeners. Here's the book Singler heart, we're going to have a link. And we'll also have a link to Bella's website. And I'm going to give the listeners the website URL verbally and they will also put it in the blog. It's Bella B eladpaulo.com. There you can find more about the book her research singles research and writing her blog, where she has plenty of articles and things on the blog itself, about being single at heart. And in her research, you'll see the media appearances, the scholarly papers and the community of single people. So if you are single and you want to reference go to Bella, the Paul de Paulo pa ULA o.com And we'll have a link to that. So again, back to that question. singlet heart the big three takeaways you'd like people to have Bella number

Dr. Bella DePaulo
one more people than you ever realized love being single they're single at heart, they are happy and flourishing, because they are single, not in spite of it. Second, people who love their life single lives and invest in them have some great advantages. For example, people who love their single lives are especially likely to be getting happier and happier over the course of their lives, which defies the stereotype that Oh, as you get, maybe you're happy as a young single person, but where do you get older, you're gonna be old and lonely and isolated. And that's not true. They value their friends more, they get more out of their friendship, they get more out of their freedom, more happiness out of it, they learn skills, that people who are coupled in and split up paths with their partner, those people don't know or don't practice a lot of things, whereas people who are single have those skills. And number three, is a piece of advice. If you are single, whether you want to be or not live your single life fully, joyfully, and unapologetically.

Greg Voisen
Those are three good points. And I think, good points for people to take away who are single, and have maybe allowed the outside world to how do you want to say influence if they stayed single or not. And that's the point of the book. You can be single at heart and you can be fulfilled, and you can have joy, and you can have happiness. And you can have this power of freedom, which is really a big element that you might not have otherwise. So Bella, my thoughts go out to you for this book. Please go to our website, we'll put a link up to that. We'll put a link to Amazon too, so people can buy a copy of the book. It's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth, and you sharing some of your wisdom about your 70 years of being single at heart.

Dr. Bella DePaulo
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed talking to you.

Greg Voisen
Take care Namaste.