Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And I have two gentlemen joining me from the other side of the world. So if you just fly a long way from San Diego, California, probably about 5000 miles, you're gonna get a reach Phil Clothier, and he is joining us from England. And from youth aboard Sweden, is Tor Eneroth and the lower left hand corner there. And me your host of this show, Greg Voisen from San Diego. Isn't technology wonderful. You guys, look, we can sit here and have this discussion.

Phil Clothier
It's fantastic. We don't have to fly so much. So we can, we could do it here.

Greg Voisen
And we're going to be talking about a new book they have out that will talk about their website as well where you can actually access this book 100% free. And for all my business listeners, it's really important that you listen to what they have to say. It's called Oh, there he got he has a copy. I don't have a copy. So Growing a Culture for Sustainability, you can get the book off of Amazon. But also you can go to the website, and they have a download of the book for free with a page turning ability. So that's one of the resources. These gentlemen are very giving of their time and all of and also the resources and it's a big resources. So I'm gonna start with Phil. Phil Clothier lives in Leicestershire, England with his wife, and they have two grown children. Phil's early career in the IT sector and as a sales director focus on happiness of his team and clients rather than income and profit. In 2000, he read a copy of liberating the corporate soul. It's about when I read it two or maybe a little before from Richard Barrett, and I took a training in it. And that's how I got to know Phil. He had a life changing moment, quickly moving into the fields of value, culture, consciousness and leadership development. He went on to lead Barrett value Center for 10 years, growing the network and global impact of his work. This included with corporations, NGOs, and governments tore in rock he lives in youth work Sweden, as we said with his wife also has two children. How amazing is that? You guys just know how to produce two children. That's no more on myself as well. So it's like it's two. That must have been the dictation that came down from the government only to Torah has been working practically with cultural transformation for the last 25 years and roles is culture manage and large global organizations like S C, A and Volvo. And these roles he trained and coached and consultant with and consulted leaders to free their own full human potential in order to liberate their organization's full potential. He's initiated and co-authored a number of publications about change and cultural transformation. His background and experience led to a director role with Barrett value center for more than 10 years, supporting leaders and consultants in all parts of the world and types of organizations to evolve their cultures. In 2021, Phil and tore left B V. C. And established Omkara. Am I pronouncing that right gentlemen, I'm calling from the Gothic word, Amma Cara meaning soul friends, they've taken their experience in the field of organizational transformation applying that to big challenges and opportunities for sustainability and wellbeing and all life. Well, gentlemen, pleasure having you on the show. You both have, you know, wonderful bios. And you've really done the work. Let's face it, it's a, it's a big challenge out there today. And we're constantly faced with it. But I think for people when you say growing culture of sustainability, now, there's there can be a lot packed into that. When you say that, right? It's like, okay, so what does that mean? So maybe we just start with you, Phil, what does it really mean to define sustainability in the context of what we call the current global challenges that we face because, you know, sustainability of using renewable resources is the inability of having a culture where we support our people and human capital. The values which we possess, there's a lot packed into that so maybe you can unpack it a little bit both of you

Phil Clothier
Yeah, well, I would start by saying that there's a picture behind me looking at the UN Sustainable, sustainable development goals. And these are 17 goals defined by, defined by the United Nations and most governments on the planet are saying, These are the things that are necessary for good life conditions on planet Earth. And we simplify that we're saying that sustainability is a steppingstone to wellbeing. And, and, and we go further than saying just wellbeing for human beings, we're saying wellbeing for all life. So that means giraffes and monkeys and blades of grass and slugs and snails and every entity is is, is unless it all works, none of it works. And some of the crisis we have today, it's necessary for us to focus on all of that. But I would start by saying, in fact, I'm going to read a quote from Rumi, on the back of the book. It says, yesterday, I was clever. So I wanted to change the world. Today, I am wise, so I'm changing myself. And that's the central kind of message of philosophy that we have of this work. If we want to make a change at an organizational cultural level and global societal level, then, actually, the big work is to change what's inside of here. And for both of us, that's still an ongoing challenge.

Greg Voisen
When I and I'll add to that, I think that quote is wonderful, what because it really kind of sums up, we've all got to change. And the Dalai Lama says one of the only ways and Steven Kotler says this too, which is surprising. You know, I want to waste what we're going to do it is to have more compassion with one another. Right? And I think, well, compassion is a word, you know, I have a foundation called compassionate communications foundation. I work with the homeless, I work with refugees from Ukraine. But I do believe that at the true soul level, a spiritual level, talking about a spiritual level, we need this consciousness shift, where we are all more conscious of being compassionate with one another, so that we can help solve these problems. And that will be a kickoff for you tour. If you discuss the fundamental shift in thinking and behavior that's required to embrace a culture of sustainability. And there's a lot of cultures, right, so we're talking today, we're talking about an organizational culture, we're gonna talk about the culture and the government, we can talk about the culture and education, we can talk about the culture, culture, culture, the culture of your family, you know, there's a lot, maybe you can unpack that one for us.

Tor Eneroth
Why country is a very, as you say, very wide description, all the way on how we do things here, so to speak. And a lot of that is an unconscious part of us something that you also mentioned, that is we have to become more calm, become more conscious. But we are also, I would say, doing a lot of things without being conscious about it. But the fundamental shift that is needed is more of recognizing that if it's not to become the best in the world, but to be best for the world. And knowing that we have a role to play and we're all contributing, you are never not contributing to shaping the culture that you are part of, in your family, in your business or organization that you're working for. You're always shaping that. And it comes from what's inside of you. And the key thing is when you become conscious about what are those drivers, those needs, those aspirations that are governing us, and our decision making in our daily life. And that's why we say you have to start there. And the way on how we describe it most simply is that we're all connected, like the bee is connected to the flower and need to flower in order to win or get the honey and to get that and, and it's all connected. The same thing with them, we as human beings, and on this earth, we are very much depending on that there is a livelihood, in the on the world or in the world that is working. And if it's not working, we won't have business, it doesn't really matter. If we only focus on the business, if we don't take care of the environment that we are part of it will I think

Greg Voisen
apps, I think some people listening might think that our approach here is a bit idealistic, you know, in a sense that it's like, okay, you guys are painting. We want to create these cultures that are there. And, you know, we say people plan its profit, you know, and in what order. You know, the issue now is really where are you putting your priorities And I think for people in leadership positions, which is going to be my next question, we need a shift in the leaders how they possess. And in this case, the qualities, the characteristics of the leaders possess in order to foster this culture of sustainability. Because as you both said, it starts with us, you know, the finger points back to us. And I think, and we, you know, I've had so many people on here talk about leadership, and you were at Volvo and you guys were at Barrett values, you went into big companies, you worked with leaders on a constant basis, you could tell the leaders that were consciously aware and the ones that were consciously asleep. And when I say awaken, I think liberating the corporate soul that Barrett wrote way back when was really about looking at that design chart of how I am going to elevate, Ken Wilber talked about it, Ken has been on the show several times as well. We look at lines and levels and whatever without getting too rate. Crazy about it. Speak with us about the basic characteristics and fundamentals that a leader in an organization failure you can lead with this would need to have or shift in their mindset, before they can actually tackle what we're talking is somewhat of an idealistic shift in culture.

Phil Clothier
Okay, well, I'm going to start with a fundamental that actually is shared by all world religions, that works equally in organizations, which is treat others as you wish to be treated. And a wonderful, a wonderful organization called reboot the future have adjusted that a little bit to say, treat others and the planet as you wish to be treated in order to include that extra stakeholders. So that comes back to what you were talking about in terms of compassion, and kindness and caring, and, and those sorts of things. But the key job, I would say, in terms of leadership is to become aware of the fears that are holding us back. And I'm from, we've worked with many leaders who are operating from a fear base that of, of words like blame, or manipulation, or exploitation, or bullying, and, and there's a thing, these are things that usually have come from traumatic childhoods, where they've been stuck in a situation and they've had to adapt these strategies just to survive childhood. And they've never really become aware of them. And now they they're in a leadership position, and they're still operating with those same dysfunctional principles. And so the key Bible we call

Greg Voisen
those, by the way, we call those adverse childhood experiences, or ACE, which you guys may be familiar with. I'm working with Dr. Brian home and Dr. Valetti, who were the founders of that at Kaiser Permanente here in the United States. They did 147,000 person study on if you take the ACE questionnaires, what your propensity is to have higher levels of stress in your life, to be able to navigate life, to be able to come with a loving, compassionate, understanding mentality about life. And it's surprising you are right, you do carry those with you, but you can transmute them. Right. And I think it's about people like you going in and working with leaders to help them transmute many of those issues, right?

Phil Clothier
You can absolutely do that. But it requires it requires a willingness on the part of that person to say, Oh, I now I'm aware of these behaviors. That's been I've been helped to see that. And it's now my choice whether I do something about this or not to I think you're going to add something you're going to

Tor Eneroth
know No, I was just confirming what you were saying. So

Phil Clothier
okay. Okay, yeah. So, it like in any in any field of transformation. Us as, as coaches, or whatever field of healing or transformation we're in, we can only work with organizations and leaders who are willing to do the work. And that requires time and courage and patience and tenacity to see it through because this stuff is not easy. Letting go of those letting go of those fears, is not an easy job. But as we do that, and gradually become lighter, we'll see that the universe responds and like starts, stuff starts coming in our direction.

Greg Voisen
Tour A mind body spirit transformation, right? In other words, you can't just say, hey, look, I'm going to change my mind. You really are going to go through because if it's not changed at a core level tore deeper inside somebody's soul, it doesn't normally stick. Right? And that usually means a spiritual transformation somewhere, however you want to define it. I'm not talking about religion. I'm not talking about jusy, Judaism or Buddhism or any of that. I'm saying your own personal religious transformation, whatever that might be. Or I should say spiritual transformation. Yeah. Yes, I sorry, I said, religious. But yeah. And so go ahead a tour, I want you to add to that,

Tor Eneroth
no, I was wanting to connect to this regarding courage. Because we are very much trapped in a system where we believe that this has to be in this way. Or this is the only way that it would work. And you have to have courage to challenge that, that way of thinking. And I have some very good examples. And it had happened a couple of times when we were been working with leadership teams, and talking about their kind of view of the reality or how things are, and so in their organization, and I come across many times, when leaders individually, when you talk to them individually, they say we can't talk about this with others, because then I will probably lose my job, or I will not be trusted, or this is not something that is typical for our business. So you need to have the courage to speak up. The interesting thing is when I speak to like seven leaders out of 10, or 15, in the management team, more than half of them are saying the same thing, but they don't have the courage to talk about it. So it's really it's a sign of us that

Greg Voisen
culture, does the culture that they work in, allow that freedom of expression, you know, who said that? I'm sure that when was

Tor Eneroth
Who is shaping the country, that they are shaping the culture? That's the interesting thing, right? So here are people who are actually are the key Dominator who shaped the culture to saying that I can't do that. And if you if you say that you can't do it, you can't do it. But if you say I can do it, and I'm going to take that risk, or I'm going to reveal that view, or my passion for that spirit, that is speaking to me, and have the courage to challenge what is the

Greg Voisen
vulnerable, how vulnerable look Brene Brown talks a ton about vulnerability, you're talking about key executives in an organization, opening up their kimono, right? Boom, you guys can see everything. And you have many still male dominated organizations. Unfortunately, I think there should be more female dominated organizations, but for a male to open up his kimono, and let the rest of the world see who he is or who she is, especially at a very high level to have that transparency. And that comes down to this question. Why is having this clear sense of purpose, their own purpose, the purpose of the organization? The why critical for organizations seeking to navigate sustainability? into their DNA? You know, what? Maybe you can use an example tour, what about Volvo mobile makes great cars? You know, they're, they're a leader now in doing some electric vehicles, and you know, what's happening there.

Tor Eneroth
Volvo is, is a very good example, I, first of all, no organization is perfect. Correct. Some are trying hard and making a big difference. So it's not about finding the ones who have made it, so to speak, and they're all in all good. But if we take Volvo as an example, it's more of why we're doing what we're doing. It's not the point where we can say we are here for making money or we're here to have transportation today, transportation solution, which is part of the mission statement for volleyball. I was in the trucks side, not in the car, but doesn't really matter. But the truck side had it we are in the transformation, transportation solution, business that has me, but when that that purpose is being put it into, I would say a higher or bigger context, that we are here to find a solution that are sustainable, and that works for the long term and for the next generation and so on. All of a sudden in that conversation, when you talk about your purpose that is bigger than do actually what you're doing in your factory and what you have with your clients, you will see that you have a bigger role to play. And that actually is electrifying. It's actually you feel proud inside of yourself that this is I am actually contributing to make this work. And I think that when I the 11 years I worked at Volvo we were able to feel that vibration of we are here to really do something much bigger than just us. individually and contributing to a much more sustainable wellbeing on earth, when the company is taking that responsibility, that's when the shift happens inside of the leaders and the employees.

Greg Voisen
Okay, Phil?

Phil Clothier
Yeah, I just want to say I was coaching someone this morning from an engineering, he was an engineer in an organization that goes on to help with crop production. And I started out by asking him, what's your purpose, and he said, well, I engineer efficient solutions for the for the manufacturing line. And after not very long, he came to the point was saying, I'm an engineer that contributes to feeding humanity. And I saw him sit up and feel totally different about himself in repositioning his purpose in that organization, making it more efficient, on one hand, but and then coming up with this idea, actually, I'm contributing to feeding humanity. And that matters in a whole different way. And so helping individuals and organizations to understand that purpose I guarantee he will be in a different position when he shows up to work tomorrow, and how he feels about his work and the and the impact that he can have on humanity. In this moment of what some will call crisis, that's a big thing.

Greg Voisen
Well, let's talk about that. You know, we live in a world today, in my almost 69 years here on this planet. I've observed many different wars. I've observed tremendous unrest. I've observed leadership, divisiveness, like I've never seen before. I've seen social media, tear apart the fabric of many different things. Okay. Now, let's that those are the some of just a few of the underlying things, including all the environmental issues, and fires and floods and with global warming. And yet at the root of all this, people go to work for a company, and the shareholders want a profit. And that company has a big, what do you want to call out facing like Volvo brand, that has to be recognized? And we've seen disruptive brands, right, we've seen, you know, the Tesla, All right, great electric car. But did it lead the way? If you were sitting in the position as a CEO of a company right now speaking with two gentlemen like yourself, who just wrote a book called Growing a culture for sustainability? Given all of the things I have to navigate? What are the top three things you would be speaking with them about taking into consideration that big swath of information that I just dumped on you? Because that is something that I guarantee you they're all thinking about? But sometimes they just don't know how to navigate it. But at the core, I mean, what's at the core for both of you? When I speak about this? What would you just say off the top of your head? I know, it wasn't one of our questions. But that's okay. Life is like that. Yeah.

Tor Eneroth
Now, it is actually, it would be wonderful to have a kind of a silver bullet answer to that question, which there or not, there are questions, if you're, if I'm facing myself in that situation, which has, has been many of those is more of what is alive inside of that individual? What's their current starting point? And what are their dreams and aspirations that they are looking for? That's where we start our journey. Because then we know what their, you know, priorities and focus and, and drivers are? And so it all depends on the response that we get, when we talked to them regarding where they are, like, like Phil was talking about now, what's your purpose, and then all of a sudden, something evolved that we can't imagine. And we take it from there and so to speak, that is a very important part. So it's no coming in, here's the formula, you have to do it, you do it.

Greg Voisen
At your Omkara website, you have a values assessment, right? So what I was getting at there was when our values shift to take into consideration growing a culture for sustainability, right and they can change it's not something that's stagnant. Fell, what would you tell somebody to look at who's feeling confused and or doesn't know how to navigate that? Wouldn't it be around looking at your value? is.

Phil Clothier
Yeah, absolutely. So we actually have a few different offerings. So at Kara dot life and you the first page on that is our resources page, you could just click on that and go down to the assessments there. And there are assessments for me as an individual to look at my own personal sustainability. And then for leaders to be able to assess what's the sustainability of my organization, as a culture? And then thirdly, what's the sustainability? What's the contribution to a sustainable world? So as those three dimensions me inside, how, how sustainable is our culture, and what's the contribution that our organization our culture makes to a sustainable world, it's, it's a fantastic place to start, and they're all free. So

Greg Voisen
so that's what I was getting at, I want my listeners to understand, you have put at your website, so many of the resources that people need to get on track, you know, you can take these resources, you can contact these gentlemen, you can read their book, it's free there, you can go to Amazon and get it. But my point is, is that that's,

Tor Eneroth
you can't get it the numbers on how you can Okay, no,

Greg Voisen
order it from you. I mean, you both were holding up copies. So I just, we made a

Tor Eneroth
copy for ourselves, I can't really believe I can't read. I can't read this online. We have a few copies, but it's a free online. Okay.

Phil Clothier
So let me just say something about the resources sharing, because we decided that all of our resources, tools, materials, books, self-assessments, everything we're giving away, we're putting free in the public domain, what's called the Creative Commons. We charge for our time when people want to work with us. But everything else that we so here's a here's to challenge some mindsets, because there's a huge mindset about intellectual property. And that's ours. And we have to, we have to have that, well, we have the opposite view, that that there isn't enough time to say we own that, and only we can use it, we have to make our work available to everybody. So that you can take it you can use it free of charge, whether your commercial or non-commercial purposes. Whether you attribute us or not is fine. We don't we don't

Tor Eneroth
label it to your own or whatever. Yeah,

Greg Voisen
absolutely. You have another one up there called Get connected. So what I what I want to encourage my listeners, though, and that wasn't a question so that you could plug it it's a question, really, because the resources that are out there are valuable. There's a lot of value in what they've put up there through Creative Commons. And I think you'll see, look, I work with authors, every day, I see this intellectual property idea. There's, there's a big shift occurring now about giving away your stuff. Okay, you guys aren't the only ones I'm starting to see a pattern of where this is going in. And it's phenomenal. It's really a good thing. Because we need to have more people have access to this kind of thing. Now, with that said, what strategies or practices can organizations adopt to empower the employees, let's take it down the employee to take ownership of sustainability initiatives or sustainability within the organization, because many organizations are producing products and services. We know one of the big things and I'll just point to it, because it's a pet peeve of mine that I've that I've really tried to work on, is the amount of plastic that's in everything, you know, and thing you buy is wrapped twice or three times, and the amount of plastic that's ending up in our ocean, and floating around out there and killing birds and killing seals and sea lions and all kinds of things. And it's a shame because, you know, in our generation, both you to sitting there and me sitting here, this is pretty much the generation that created that. The question is, are we going to clean it up, and any company that makes a product or service that gets wrapped, and I'm beginning to see it just a little bit now, the wrappings are all organic, they're trying to do things, but I'm using one simple little example here. Because when you go through this manufacturing process and you look at every little step of what you do, you need to look at it from cradle to cradle. Right? And I'm not certain too many people are doing it what would you tell executives and how would you engage these employees to want to voice their opinion about what our company's doing?

Phil Clothier
I just started. So I'm going to start, I'm going to start with measurement actually, because when you when you measure and you hear the voices of all your employees, then stuff comes to light. Because most people are passionate, mostly people do want the organization to be successful. Mostly, most people have got children or nieces and nephews, and they're very aware of what's going on. And they care about plastic and all of all of that stuff. It's not like, it's not like, the buses know the answers, and you ignore the employees, and you just tell them what to do. Well, that's for some organizations, they still are in that industrial age Command or Control way of being. But frankly, that's that way is dying, necessarily, that needs to die, we need to get everybody on board and engage their passions and their kind of asked me, we couldn’t make a difference here. So one, it would be measured a second is dialogue. And we have to be in dialogue with our people to really find out what's going on. Can I give a real example. I love real examples working with an organization with over 150,000 employees and in over 150 countries. And what they heard back from their employees that the predominant way of operating was really about prosperity. We're doing a lot of stuff around creating prosperity, which the world needs nothing wrong with that. But there was some unhealthy aspects to that. But what it turned out this organization had a, their website was fantastic talked about their ambitions for sustainability, for net zero for circular economy, circular economy means getting rid of those plastic loops that you're talking about and doing that really well. They had an incredible story about what they were doing. And yet, when we looked at their culture, their culture, their culture, they were unaware of the fact that their culture still had some of those deep challenges within it. And let me just let me give you some words, because one of their executives talking about courage, there was a moment when one of their executives said, looking at this area of peace in their, how they operate, hierarchy, empire building, manipulation, blame and power, with a features of their culture, categorized under this area of peace. And, and she said, if we're operating with those sort of factors, internally, we can never be a force for good in the world. And we as an executive team have to address these things and and transform ourselves so that we can then run the organization in a way that respects our people so that they can then make the difference at the scale that we want it to be. And so listening to their people who for some of them were still burning out. And, and there were deep problems within that situation. I don't doubt that they had their aspirations and intentions and goals around sustainability were absolutely true. They held integrity around those things. What they were unaware of, was the internal culture that was holding them back that was going to make it difficult slash impossible to achieve those sustainability goals and run a brand run a profitable business. And in order to do that,

Tor Eneroth
You have to invite the whole organization in a co-creative dialogue about what that is, what does it mean, because the ownership is a rising or the commitment and motivation to do something about is when you feel that you are part of it. I am, it's not somebody else who's going to fix it, I am actually being invited to contribute to make this happen. And the key to start that is what exactly what Phil is talking about, recognizing we need to do things differently here and address these issues that are actually holding us back.

Greg Voisen
It was a good example, Phil. And I appreciate that because it was a very, very big company, 150,000 150 countries. So the big swath, one of the things that I was recently watching a documentary on working, and it had Barack Obama, speaking with all these working class people, and in this case, it was just in America. But this is really worldwide. It's an issue. When you look at the division between what a top executive makes today, and what the lowest paid person makes today. And that gap, that huge gap, talk about a culture that creates animosity, that creates challenges for people to even have a sustainable culture. Right. Would either one of you like to feel the question about this huge gap in society today, which we've seen growth 230 times at the highest level? lowest person working inside of a company. And I think when you don't have some equanimity, or you don't change that structure of, of pay, or you work like Patagonia does, where you're sharing all of those profits. And I do understand that I'm using an example of a company, which is just way out of the box in comparison to most companies. Well, what would you two gentlemen say about that? And how does that affect a culture of sustainability?

Tor Eneroth
That's a good one. First of all, I think that even if Patagonia is way out of the box is also an inspiration. And a good example of it is possible to start to think differently and leading the way and I'm sure that many of the listeners have been reading. I was I gone? I've been gone surfing, I don't know what the abstract is. Yeah, yeah. So that's one way on how you as an organization could make a difference by sharing how you look upon doing business. But I can only agree with you if we are going to have more of a sustainable world, we have to address the issues, how that is going to be addressed. It again starts with the leaders recognizing that this can't continue. And we have to make a change somebody who's setting those salaries and make those differences. Why do I have to have so much more money as the CEO, or president of the organization? Or why do we don't pay more fairly, and so on. So it's, I made me make it very simple, but it's really more of a decision, becoming conscious, and then making a decision that this has to change. We had

Phil Clothier
to go ahead. We had a real example here in the UK. In the last few months, you might know that we had a very short term Prime Minister Liz truss, who lasted I think something like 40 days the shortest Prime Minister ever because of the disastrous decisions she made. And one of those disastrous decisions was to unfreeze the gap, the cap on bankers pay. So there had been a cap put on bankers bonuses in order to address some of these equality measures in society. And she said, no, we have to let the markets make these decisions. And we're going to completely unfreeze that. And bankers can be paid unlimited amounts of money. And, and basically, government and the people of the UK said, no, that is not fair. That is not equitable. And we're not going to have it. And that was amongst some other disastrous decisions she made at that point, which was basically to enable capitalism to go crazy. Basically, the UK said, no, that shall not be the way and equity matters. And so I actually do see that, that slowly. This is coming into society. And frankly, equality is one of equality is one of the UN Sustainable Development Goals. And that that happens, equality in terms of poverty and equality in terms of food, and education, and all those different things. Until all of that is addressed. It's impossible to address any of them individually. So they all have to be done at the same time. And yes, there are lots of bad examples, but I'm really happy to say that it was. We make some disastrous decisions here in the UK, like Brexit, but anyways, that one around rejecting the unbridled greed of bankers was, I think, a good decision.

Greg Voisen
I think so too. And I think that to get to sustainable wages, where people can educate their children and buy a home and have the things that they want in the world, meaning, you know, that there is at was Bucky Fuller who said this, and I actually wrote a chapter in a book about Buckminster Fuller. He said, if we spend less on weaponry, and more on living array, there's more than enough to go around. And I think that is the point. Some people may think Bucky Fuller was a little crazy, and maybe he was but the reality was, is some of his postulates. Some of his theories were right on I mean, this goes back years and years, and I've been a steadier than his for years. And that leads me to our wrap up question here for our interview for both of you. What are some of the essential metrics and indicators organizations should consider when measuring ng sustainable performance with inside their organization what? What do you know, what would you two gentlemen, you have tons of resources at your website, we're going to direct everybody to go to Ankara dot life, download the book, download the assessments. But you know if somebody out there is listening today, and they're saying, well, guys, I don't even know where to start. I don't even know where to what to measure. What advice would you give a CEO or a CFO or somebody in HR department today who's listening to this, and it's going, wow, I need some place to go. And I'm going to say, first, I'm gonna say go to Ankara live, and get the resources there and read the book. And then secondly, when you have a question, contact one of these gentlemen through the website. So what would you measure?

Phil Clothier
Well, I'm gonna start with some of the traditional measures that we have. So like, they're still useful. So measuring profitability, and measuring productivity, and measuring customer satisfaction, and employee wellbeing and those sort of things. These are all critical measures we need to start with. But what we've created as a way to connect this to measure culture, directly connected to the UN Sustainable sustainability goals. So we look at these five areas and now I'm being put on the spot, and I'm gonna have to remember what they are. They are you remember them are sheeple, prosperity, Planet peace and partnership. So we can look at the cultural dimensions of an organization through these five dimensions. Well, to what degree are we? Are we considering people internally and externally in our decision making? To what extent are we considering prosperity for society of prosperity, but by the way, include things like that fairness of wages, because that that matters? Planet, I think speaks for itself, what are we doing to ensure that we are taking our part for not just doing less harm to the planet, but actually doing positive good? What are we doing in order to ensure that peace prevails in my heart, in our culture, and on earth, and finally, we look at this area called Partnership, which is says, like, we can't do this alone, it requires all of us, it requires all of us to work together. And as competitive as we might feel with each other. Actually, if we work together with some of these other organizations, we're going to get there a whole lot quicker, and will create a future for our children's children and wellbeing for all.

Tor Eneroth
And maybe we should say that, that those five Ps is an extension of the triple bottom line, which was the easy three days. Yeah, exactly. And then the United Nations realized that it can't work, unless we have partnership, and peace. And if we look at the world right now, who are in many instances is specifically here in Europe, we are very much caught up in focusing on the war, which is a short term focus is not helping us to become sustainable, we are now focusing more on our basic needs of survival and making sure that it works. But so it's holding out that piece on piece is actually holding us back from creating a more sustainable world. So it's in there.

Greg Voisen
Well, no, those five peas, and again, for my listeners, go to the website and get this book. I mean, they say you can't get it in physical form. So just trust me, go download the book, you can flip through the pages, there's a lot of pictures, it's an easy read, it's not difficult. And when you get done, you're going to be able to look at the things that you want to measure and create initiatives in your organization. And these gentlemen would be happy to help you create those initiatives in your organization and then start to measure them, measure them for the outcomes that you're attempting to achieve. And if this is, I will say, gentlemen, it's a slower process, but you need to be patient. In this process, I think a lot of times people fail on it, take this on, and we're gonna accomplish this by this date. And it's all Buddhist saying, and I know both these gentlemen know it, but expectation is suffering in the making. So don't suffer because you didn't actually reach the milestone you thought you were going to make because here's the complexity of this and both these gentlemen have spoken about it. You're talking about the complexity of a person, we're human beings. We have feelings, they matter. Those feelings and behaviors sometimes get in the way of us doing exactly we addressed that earlier, you know what we were talking about, you then have all this production facility at Volvo makes, you know, you got to put these parts together and get these things. And then you got all these resources that you got to pull them from and investigate? Who's giving you what and are they telling you the truth? And what kind of assessment are you doing to figure out is this where you want to get your, your plastic from that goes in the car, right? All of those kinds of things become something for you to look deeper. But here's the thing. For us to change, you're going to need to take a microscope and look very closely at all these elements. And then you're going to need to expand that to see the world in which you're operating. And when you do that expansion, you actually see the impact you're having to global warming, the impact you're having to whether it's division and salaries, the impact you're having. And you can make it a much happier place to be both your own culture and your personal world. If you open up and let go, right? Yep, have to let go of a lot of memes. We were talking about this earlier, if it's an adverse childhood experience, you need to learn how to let go of that that might be affecting a behavior or a thought. And that's where it all starts. That's why this show is called inside personal growth. Because the Guru's in the mirror, when you wake up in the morning, you know, and you look in the mirror, you're this is where it starts, is right here. And you guys have been great to guests to have on the show. I appreciate your time. Again, the book is called Growing a culture of sustainability, Phil clothier and tour in Roth, go down and download that book because as Torre told us, you can't get a physical copy. They're the only two that have physical copies. So thank you guys, both for being on inside personal go there. Any last words?

Phil Clothier
Thank you for having us. Actually, I started with a quote from Rumi. I'm gonna finish with the last three lines of a poem from Gary Schneider, which is which is guidance for this work. And he says, stay together, learn the flowers go light.

Greg Voisen
Did you say learn the flowers?

Phil Clothier
Yes. Like, like learn about nature

Greg Voisen
and learn the flowers. Okay,

Phil Clothier
together, learn the flowers go light. It's a poem that we use at the end of the book to really express the poem is called for the children by Gary Snyder. And it's short, but it's beautiful.

Greg Voisen
It is that's you know what people today have so much coming at them a three liner like that is something they can remember. So, thank you. Thank you for that one. Thank you both for being on inside personal growth. Now let's state the above. Thank you. Appreciate you.

Phil Clothier
Thanks, Greg. Bye.

Tor Eneroth
Thank you.