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Welcome to Inside Personal Growth podcast. Deep dive with us as we unlock the secrets to personal development, empowering you to thrive. Here, growth isn't just a goal, it's a journey. Tune in, transform and take your life to the next level by listening to just one of our podcasts.

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Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from I just said maybe a half a mile away and he was introduced to me by Simon Vitter, a really good common friend. We were in an event is Robert Richman.

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And for those of you who don't know Robert, this is his book. He's got a couple but this one, can you see it? The cultural blueprint. Look in the show notes below because we'll have a link to Amazon to actually get the book. You can see behind him on the screen that he's got everything sitting right there.

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The cultural blueprint and the website for him is robertrichman.com robertrichman.com well, good morning to you. How are you? Great, thanks Greg. Well, it's good to have you on the podcast. It's good to spend a little bit of time with you.

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I don't often meet all of my authors, but he and I had coffee because we live really close to one another and we had a great time and our common, mutual A connector did a good job because we both went to an event and got to learn a lot about each other.

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He also has this other book out, hopefully we can get a little bit into. It's called the Story of a Magic Pill, X. So it kind of weaves through Robert's life.

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But let's get a tad bit about him. He's the author of this book, as we said. He's renowned keynote speaker, cultural strategist and former co creator of Zappos Insights and legendary division of Zappos, which taught thousands of leaders around the world how to build cultures rooted in happiness, service and meaning.

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His work has inspired Fortune 500 companies like Google, Toyota, Intuit, Eli Lilly. And his framework has helped leaders reimagine how engagement, ownership and innovation truly come alive inside organizations. So at Zappos, he learned firsthand what makes people thrive at work and how culture isn't something you impose, but something you co create.

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His book distills years of hand on experience into practical experience, driven by models that show how to architect a culture like a system. One that empowers teams to self organize, align values and vision, in turn work into Something deeply human, meaningful.

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He has spoken and sparked movements like Culture Con that have made him sought after voice, designing workplace experiences and inspire, others. So again, cultureblueprint.com his blog is robertrichman.com forward slash blog.

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And as I said, his website is Robert Richmond. And all those will be in the show notes. So, you know, I always ask, you know, why people write a book.

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You know, I've done 1200 and almost 80 podcasts at this point. And it's usually in most cases on personal growth stuff. It's about, well, you know, it's about my own personal journey because a lot of times it is.

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And how they have evolved. How has this evolved for you to a point where what you've seen in the world needed to be shifted because things weren't, weren't actually as they seemed, inside the cultures of these organizations.

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Yeah, it really originated bottom up for me because I was at Zappos Insights where thousands of leaders would come through and learn from us and we would learn from them. And they were fascinated by what we were doing and how we were able to achieve great results without having high pay to get amazing customer service results and culture where people love to work.

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And one day I realized I had 300 pages of notes just sitting there. And everything I learned both from Zappos and all these other companies coming through. And the thing that I really learned that was an interesting motif was that this Tolstoy quote where Tolstoy said that all happy families are alike and all unhappy families are different in their miseries.

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And that's why I started notice with great cultures too. The great cultures seem very alike and there are trends and there are patterns. And that gave me a lot of hope that across industries people are just people. And if we figure out this element to it, culture is essentially what is in between all of us.

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What connects us, what brings us together. And when we figure out that, then that can be multiplied, replicated and it's just a win win across the board because companies win better results, employees like their lives a lot more. So really just seemed like a no brainer for me in terms of a way to understand people better and how to improve the world.

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Well, look, the leader, Tony, at Zappos for years until his demise. What, what is it that was special about Tony in your estimation? You obviously worked close with him. There was so much written about him and so many, people loved working there.

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I remember seeing the costumes people would bring to work and the hats and the Funny glasses and all, all the funny things that were going on. But what was it in the essence of the man who came through all of those iterations before he even got to Zappos, in your estimation, that made him like such a glue?

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The people just loved him. Yeah, Several things. I mean, I could go on for a while about it. One is he really created worlds around him. He built like, what, games essentially, ways for people to engage and play. Whether it be a college or his first startups or a co working space he created or Zappos.

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So he really created these worlds. But on top of that, he's able to see, directly into people and what their talents are. And even if they've had no experience with it, he can tell he's got an eye for passion and where people can grow. So he really assembled his own superhero force.

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He would just see his friends and people be like, you're great at that, you're great at that. And create opportunities, opportunities for them to have their talent shine at a place like Zappos. And then it was the way he managed. He, he was always quiet at meetings till the end. He token everything and would just have amazing ideas and mic drop, these incredible ideas.

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And he had a, a way of looking across the organization and seeing them at people as nodes in a network and kind of like the game memory he would remember. Oh, Greg really did this. Well, Robert's working on this. You two should talk. And he was like a switchboard at the company where he knew everything going on and could just figure out what connections to make for people to, to really thrive.

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Very cool. Very cool. You know, now you say that cultures of feeling, and obviously Tony had lots of feeling, had to be a compassionate guy. I'm sure he was driven, besides that and that you can change it immediately by starting with yourself.

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Can you walk us through what that actually looks like in practice? And if somebody listening right now, it's, you know, it's a feeling that's stuck in my organization or even in my personal life. What's the first feeling shift I should make?

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Yeah, I learned a lot about this through one of my mentors, Dan Mezig, author of the Culture Game. And he said, he showed me how people sometimes use culture change as medication in their lives. So what I mean by that is I had a client once who, she said, you know, okay, I want to create this culture.

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I want this to be a very exciting culture, an exciting company. And I said to her, okay, great. How exciting is your personal life? And she said, oh, not very exciting. I said, okay, then you're using the company culture to try to improve your life. And I said, we're not going to start there.

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We're going to start with how can we get your life more exciting? And then we worked on that for four weeks of, where she could create the feeling that she wants to bring as a leader to her culture rather than trying to extract that feeling from the culture. So I always say that to leaders, anything you want for your culture, if you're not living it right now in your life, then you're trying to use your culture and your company as medication for what you don't like and what you're not feeling in your own life.

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So that's where it really starts, is do you have that grounding as a leader in experiencing the things you want to experience, feeling the things you want to feel, shifting if you don't, and then coming to culture with a place to give. Right. Rather than trying to take. It's interesting.

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You know, we've. From a kind of, I'm just going to say, a spiritual standpoint, you know, we've been conditioned, through much of our lives to play roles. The conditioning is there, and we've lost the playfulness. And one of the things that, Zappos did was allow people to be playful, you know, and you'll find people like yourself who come into corporations and want to play games with people and do whatever.

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And then the question you say is, well, how does it last? How does. How do you keep this culture of fun, play, excitement going? Because that's where creativity comes from. That's where somebody who gets on the other line of the phone goes, oh, well, this person is really nice in their.

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Their. This is great customer service. And they want to do what they can to, you know, make sure I get the best tennis shoes. Right. The best shoes. Right. So what, what is it that you found is the glue that keeps organizations at this level of consciousness where they're feeling playful and they don't have to revert back to the other conditions?

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Yeah. So it's two things. People and practices. And, heavily, heavily, heavily weighted on the people part. So what I found in all this work is culture is really driven, in my opinion, by the recruiting and tr. Onboarding departments. If you find the people who love to be playful, it's not that hard.

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Right. If you value that, if you truly value that, whatever that is, People love to be of service. It's easy to train them in service Right. So first, I think it's actually looking for people who are naturally playful. And honestly, that's 80% of it, because they can create the environment that's going to be playful as a result.

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That said, there are certain practices that help. Like, you know, one of them that I always loved is that anybody could call for a one minute dance party. If the energy was low and you put the phone on hold for one minute, everybody dance for a minute. Right back on the calls. Right. So the little games like this can be done, but it's really done by people who are creative and playful.

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So that's where I tell people to focus. If you want to focus on culture work, focus on recruiting and onboarding. Interesting. Now, like these leaders that run these organizations, whether it's Tony or people underneath Tony or wherever it is that you've worked in, you emphasize that the best leaders don't claim they have all the answers, they ask the best questions.

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Now, as resident podcasters, we have to be able to be quick and ask questions and understand and know that the question is going to lead to an insight. What are some of the best questions you've encountered in your thousands of conversations with business leaders?

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And how can we as individuals develop this questioning mindset in our own growth journey? Yeah, just writing down a few of those here. Tony would ask a great one, which was, would you rather be right or would you rather be happy?

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Because he found that, like, people would get up on their high horse about what should be happening, but they're not happy. And so, this would really shift thinking. So, for example, at one point, HR was really upset because, people weren't filling out the vacation forms. It was in triplicate. You had to get your manager signed all this.

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And they didn't know. And they realized, like, oh, we're right, they should be filling out these forms, but they're not. But what would make us happy if we just knew when they're taking vacation. So they threw out that whole system, even though they were right that people weren't using it, and said, just email Zappos, vacations, appos.com and tell us when you're taking the time off.

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And then people used it because it was so easy. So they gave up to the being right to being happy. So that's why. Do you remember, Pardon me for interrupting, but I know, I think I know where Tony got that. There's an author by the name of John gray, who's actually 90 years old, just coming on the show. I can't believe that John's that old now.

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He wrote the book Men Are From Mars, Women are From. Yeah, he's a friend of mine. So actually, Warren Farrell is going to be the next podcast interview. And Warren and him are in a group together. And he said, hey, I'll get John to be on the show. The point was that he used to say, would you rather be right or would you rather be in love?

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And the point he was saying in relationships, because that's Tony's point. Yeah. Is, you know, you can push people away by always just saying, oh, I'm. It's got to be this way. I'm determined it's going to be this way. And so I love what he was doing with the culture of the people to be able to do that was a great question.

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Well, you had another question of his that you wanted to let us in on. Not his, but another one I learned actually from a great rabbi, Rabbi David Wolpe, and he said, you know, rather than asking for feedback what I do right, what I do wrong, he said to me once, like, what would, what would you do in my position?

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And the difference between that is if I say, if I ask for feedback, in a way I'm getting criticism. But if I say to you, Greg, what would you do in my position? It makes you use your imagination and get creative rather than just being critical. So that's a great one I see them use.

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And then the last is one, I think, from, Robert Cialdini's work, which is the question of, of after feedback, saying, would you please tell me what you think I don't want to hear? Would you please tell me what you think I don't want to hear? And that's how you get some really, really truthful answers that, that people just didn't provide enough safety for somebody to go there, to get that truth before that.

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Yeah. And that's also a question that, puts the other person in a position to kind of be. Sometimes I think they might be a little taken by that. Right. Because they're afraid to say it. So truly say it back to somebody because they're going to question, their relationships, how they would frame the question.

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But, you know, during your time building Zappos insights from concept to this multi million dollar reality, you must have faced moments where the vision seemed impossible. Could you share a specific moment when you felt like giving up and what internal shift allowed you to push through?

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Because this was a big deal, with Zappos that you were working on? Yeah, I literally remember having a panic attack at the office because they, they gave me so much responsibility and freedom, which, which was amazing. I love. But I, I was carrying the reputation of the brand with this new venture and I had had all these plans and was figuring them out.

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And you know, the, the, the, the way I got through it was two things. I, I figured out how to get over panic attacks in general, which I can talk about if you'd like. But the main thing was actually culture itself. Working with my work partner there, Donovan Roberson, and we just, just talked about it and came up with the idea to shift the business model because all our stress was coming from creating content, creating content and, and it wasn't sticking and it wasn't working.

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So instead we shifted to an experience based model where we brought people into the office and taught them and that shifted everything. So I think it's, it's, you know, anytime I say to people that they're in a room by themselves trying to figure something out, you're doing culture wrong. You've really got to get with people, to figure out these problems and take them off my own shoulders and, and collaborate instead.

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Well, you know, I think panic attacks are a common thing and I know I'm going to ask you how you relieved yours, but I'm going to mention I used to have them frequently and what I ended up doing because these felt real to me.

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It was like totally real. You know, your heart starts racing, you feel closed in, everything starts to do this. And I ended up going to scripts and getting, biofeedback with the little electrodes on my brain. Yeah. And I really saw what I was doing to myself.

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And I always tell my listeners, you know, if you take a minute through your breathing meditation, through centering to be present. You know, my only role right now is to be present. You know, with Robert. I have nothing else here to do.

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I don't, I shouldn't be doing anything else. Yeah. So that whole presence of being and you looking at somatic breathing or any kind of breathing you would do, or a, meditation or an affirmation or something helps to center the body.

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And instead of releasing, you know, where you should be releasing oxytocin, you're releasing cortisol during one of those attacks and that cortisol streaming through your body like crazy. And then it's creating all these weird things that are going on because you just feel like you're, you're actually going nuts when you're having them.

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I want to know how you dealt with them, though. Yeah. The interesting thing about panic attacks is that they don't tend to come on in a predictable way. They'll oftentimes just randomly get to you. So it's kind of like predicting lightning.

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And I don't know if you saw, Back to the Future, but there's a scene in it where Doc says, like, we, the only way possible is to get a bolt of lightning, but we never know when it's going to strike. And then Marty shows the scene and says, I would know exactly when it's going to strike.

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And it hit me that I knew exactly when I could get a panic attack to strike, so I could work on it. And that was going in a sensory deprivation chamber, a float tank, where you just lose all senses and then you basically disappear. And it would send me into a panic. And so I used this program, I learned a lot from a program called Panic Away that said, you know, panics are just, they're bluffing.

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You're not really dying like you think you are. And so the opposite of resistance isn't acceptance. The opposite of resistance is to bring it in intentionally. So I would intentionally, several times a week, go into the float tank, bring, on a panic attack so that I could work through it and say, like, okay, like, bring it on.

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You're going to kill me. You're going to try to kill me. Try to do it. And, some of them were really, really hard, but after three weeks of it, they've pretty much gone entirely. Now, you went into the feeling. You didn't resist the feeling. So you weren't not afraid of it, which is what you were when you were having them.

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Oh, yeah. I mean, I was afraid of it going into it. Yeah. Oh, well, the thing, the tank, I'm sure, yeah. Because it. What happens is the body is reacting to what you are emotionally feeling and what's coming up. Right. So you have to live with that. It's, you know, in your book, you write that this opposite of entitlement is gratitude and that you share a personal story about working as a waiter that transform your perspective forever.

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What other experiences have fundamentally shifted your worldview? And how do you intentionally create experiences for yourself and others that generate these perspective shifts? Because, look, it's all about our perspective.

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You know, the culture you're in is, a direct result of, you know, you can say, oh, well, this is a lousy place to work, or you can choose to Say this is a great place to work and come in with that attitude and you can be the consciousness that the culture needs to actually help make the shift.

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I've seen it. I mean, look how many times if you've gone into organizations where you, you could either go into a meeting and you could cut the air with a knife because it was that dense. The vibration inside the organizations were just so crazy.

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It was a command and control environment. Right? Yeah. I think to change perspective, you can only temporarily do it by intentional thought change. So, you know, think about this like if, if you're complaining about your sandwich being late, but then you think about people who are starving in India.

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Right. Like you have a momentary shift. That doesn't mean after that every time you're waiting for a sandwich, you're going to be grateful. Right. I think that the more permanent, lasting type of shifts are from experience design. It like that waiter one, it was.

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It's one thing to say you should be appreciative of a waiter. It's another thing to have gone through the whole experience and understand it and know. And now that perspective doesn't go back to the old ones. So I think, you know, same thing with the panic attacks. I think real perspective change is about welcoming in or designing experiences that will create that permanent perspective shift versus temporary telling people to change their perspective, which only works momentarily.

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Good. That is a good perspective shift, a good way to get that perspective shift. And you know, under this arena of personal contentment and change, you know, we just talked about, I just said that it's your choice.

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It's perspective. You know, you're going to be, and it's about your commitment. So you mentioned in the book, your principle is if it's not a hell yeah, right. And I've watched videos of you, then it's a no.

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So it's a powerful filter for a life decision. And then you mention in the book, so let's get real. How do you actually practice this when there are people are going to say this, bills to pay, expectations to meet, and social pressures to say yes.

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So where's the line between this principle and responsibility? Well, I think it's, it's, you know, in a matter of perspective. If, if you really think it's optional to pay your bills, then, then, you know, like, I think there's just some things on this list that are optional and some that are not.

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Like, like you, you, you gotta pay your bills. You're gonna be homeless. Right. That's more of A have to like to go to your sixth cousin's daughter's bar mitzvah or something like there's a lot more choice in that. And yes, there can be, you know, social consequences or things like that, but it's not to me it depends on where your commitments lie and what is your commitment to.

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And I think the best perspective I heard on this was from Steve Jobs who he was talking to his designer Jony I've and said what are you saying no to? To create that space for the hell yeah as the things that you really want. And he said oh, I didn't go to this event, I didn't go to this wedding, et cetera.

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And he said no, no, no, no, those are things that you didn't want to do anyway. You just didn't go. He said what are things you really want to do but you're saying no to, to focus that time on what you really do want. And that's what I mean by the hell yeah. Like you, you might have to take away from these mild.

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Yeah. The oh yeah. For the like real thing you want. And that's where the sacrifices and trade offs come in. And how do you think people really recognize what the real yeah is? I think because I think a lot of people go through life just drifting.

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They're not, they don't have a real hell yeah. True, true. I think the way to find that if it's not clear, I mean there's certainly ways to do it where you can look back on your life and see what are you excited to you and when and who are you jealous of. And those kind of things can point you in the right direction.

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But I think in the absence of any of that, it's oddly the answer is to remove things rather than figure out what that is. So for example, if the amount of of the way that our thinking can be impacted by social media, by news, by if you remove that, the mind doesn't have those distractions and that's I think what gets in the way of it is just going along because if you don't have those passions, something else has to fill its place.

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So if you're not clear on what's going to fill it on passion, you can take away those things that are filling the space and now there's a void to start looking at and start seeing. Okay, what do I really consciously, intentionally want to fill this void with? What do I want to spend my time doing? Where does my mind keep going back?

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And you see that when you create that space first. It's very hard because you're so used to the distractions. But then like one idea that you had keeps getting at you and keeps getting at you're like, maybe that's. Maybe I need to put some water on that plant. So I think in some ways finding that, that. Hell yeah. Is about taking away things that get in the way of it.

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Well, let's talk about this for a second then. Yeah. All right. Because this would. You know, I believe when people write books, you can always find the links in between them. Right. And you wrote this story of a magic pill. How people use the X pill to get clarity.

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Break, breakthrough blocks and access the power of the unconscious mind. What, what is that for you? Look, if, if I got these right here These little blue pills and if I could take one of these.

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Or purple. Sorry. If I could take one of these and get there. What is that experience for you? You've been through it. Because I know you've gone through ayahuasca experiences and all kinds of other stuff.

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What does that actually mean? Because there's a lot of people out there that are not going to go down, to a shaman and experience ayahuasca and go through it once, twice, even once. Yeah, right. I know you've been through it several times. So they're not going to purge through all that that's in their body and.

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Right. You know, end up throwing up and crapping and doing whatever. So the question would be, is if I've got to get there and that's what helps me get this clarity. How do you tell people or advise people to get to that clarity without that?

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So for those of you who don't know what Greg's talking about, X pill is a pill that's it's like a quantum type of pill that works on the, on the unconscious mind because it's essentially a placebo. And you see, there's a process to setting an intention to it and then, swallowing that. And the thing that it does require is clarity because, clarity and a sense of sensation of what you want.

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And I think there does have to be clarity going into it. And a lot of people don't take it for that reason. They literally hold the pill for months and months and months because they're not sure. And one, I think there's nothing wrong with that, is taking the time to get clarity. But also what I coach people on with this is saying to them that, start Wherever you have any clarity, you know.

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So I was coaching a woman, and she just did not know what to do with your life direction was, was just, frozen. And I said, okay, first exercise we're going to do is just pick something for lunch. Get clear on that. And the thing is, no matter what, pursue it with abandon.

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Find the best of it. Don't question the decision. Eat it, enjoy it. Like, we have to start with that level of certainty, to expand on it. It's the same way the coach who was at Zappos, there was a woman who wanted to lose a lot of weight, and she resisted the gym and resisted the gym and said, okay, if you're clear here, what we're going to start with, you're going to go into the gym, you're going to use the bathroom and leave.

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Don't even work out. That was the first step, right? So then it was like, get, on the treadmill for two minutes, then leave. And it was just this kind of exposure therapy of it. So I think clarity. I think we actually do have clarity. It's just when people think of clarity, they think like, my life purpose, my mission, what's going to be my business, who's going to be those things?

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Whereas you can literally just start with little things in front of you. Pick it, do it without turning back. And then what happened with that client was that it's the emotion. I think clarity is actually more of an emotion than information. People think clarity is. I need the exact information when it's really like you don't know if that information's right, but you can feel clear.

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I feel certain about this. Right. So it's oddly that that shift. It's not information. It's a feeling. So you. Is this reference, you made a reference in the other book that it's the beta testing. Is that. Is this kind of. You said you emphasize beta testing everything before full implementation.

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Would that be what this is? It's a different concept, but I think they're both the same in that they're both following the scientific method of hypothesis experiment. Examine the results. That's what's done with the beta. That's also done with expill. You have a hypothesis that you want this thing, whatever that is, you take the pill for it.

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You're going to have an experience. And it's usually one where either you get the intention or you see what's in the way of the intention, and it happens within 48 hours. So I think they're both done with the, with the spirit and intention of. Of experience and experimentation, design.

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Well, it's. I like your example of her going into the restroom and then her going on the treadmill for two minutes and just actually even walking into the gym to. To have that feeling. Because those tiny shifts, as they call them.

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Right. Are what we need to do to get the mind in a favorable position to say, oh, well, it's not that bad. It isn't, you know, so I can make this change or this growth. So one of the things in this personal growth question is you, Dave Logan describes you as somebody, you.

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Who sees where things are going and can nudge you to get there ahead of everyone else. Now, Rita, McGrath on her was in this, podcast. She calls it seeing around corners. Actually, Dave Logan said the same thing.

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How did you develop this capacity to see around corners? It's something that can, be. Is it something that could be cultivated? And is it more about trusting your intuition? I mean, look, I'm sitting here and I remember a book I wrote, and I gave you a copy.

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I think the reason I have this is, you know, a journey from intuition to innovation and beyond this one. And, you know, as I studied in intuition and I listened to some of the greatest minds, you know, the Steve Jobs of the world and the Bill Gates of the worlds and the Warren Buffett, they'll always tell you that it was their intuition that guided them to make some decision.

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So now you're getting to kind of the spiritual side, because you have to be in touch with the one, okay. With this connection, with this energy to actually even recognize, to be aware of your intuition.

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So speak with us about this ability to see around corners and use this intuition. Yeah. At the end of the day, it's like, how do you explain intuition itself? Some people would call it God. Some people would call it. You know, I think for me, it's. It's doing a lot of pattern recognition.

[32:18.5]
It's, it's, it's. It's. It's doing a lot of noticing. I think as a cultural type of anthropologist, you start to watch and listen and learn and put together vectors and patterns. So, for example, the one I'm working on right now, there's so much going on towards AI.

[32:35.2]
There's so much brain rot, as they call it, people being stuck on social media. These are the trends. So what's the opposite of being stuck in entertainment? And what's the opposite of digital? That would be a counterbalance for this. And that's why I'm betting a lot on analog games, board games, card games, social games, because they get us off screens.

[32:54.9]
And rather than. It's fun, rather than entertainment fun, you have to co create entertainment. You're just sitting there passively. So what I do is kind of, I look at those vectors and think, okay, what would, what if this is going into a direction that's negative? What would be the counter that would be positive that I could do? And, and I've also got, I can go into it if you like, but it's kind of a model for disruption, which is also the model I follow to see where things are changing and where the next big opportunity is.

[33:24.4]
Well, it would be good for us to go into it a little bit because I think, look, we're, all aware. Anybody who's listening to this show for the most part, is aware of how AI is shifting their perspective of the world. We're looking at, companies now.

[33:43.9]
Amazon just announced today they're going to lay off 30,000 people. That they're going to go. That a lot of these companies are going to completely go to robotics. You know, you're seeing China right now, delivery of packages with drones into machines where people pull this stuff out, right?

[34:05.0]
So if you say, hey, well, this is the brave new world. Yeah, it is, to the degree. And you're saying, hey, a board game will get us engaged, It'll get to bring us back to the reality of who we are as a human soul.

[34:22.5]
Right. Using our own minds to think versus the computer mind. What does that look like for you?

[34:32.2]
There's the. And are you speaking about what's the disruption model? Or was there a different question? I'm sorry, no, the disruption model. The disruption is there now, right? You say it's a model. It's more for predicting disruption.

[34:48.1]
So, for example, where I see disruption happening is where there's frustration with no perceived solution. So for example, Steve Jobs realized he wanted to invent the iPhone when he was at a meeting and somebody said that they couldn't turn off their ringer and said he hates his phone.

[35:05.7]
And he asked who else here hates their phone? And all the hands went up. Right? But they so know. No alternatives. Same thing with taxi cabs and Uber. There was no alternative, but it was frustrating. Cabs are dirty, smelly, the payment process was annoying. Communication errors of where to go, all that.

[35:23.4]
Uber solved that. But the way both of these did this is looking at a frustration where people have no solution. But the answer to it is actually to remove what seems essential. So the iPhone at the time, I don't know if you remember, but everyone was up in arms because what did they remove?

[35:41.0]
They removed the tactical keyboard. You know, that was the full all screen. And people were upset about it at first, but it shifted the game. What did Uber do? It said, let's have a transportation company with no cars. What did Airbnb do? They said, let's have a hotel company with no hotels.

[35:58.3]
So, oddly enough, and that's what Xpil does, is says, okay, what if we had a pill with no active ingredients? Right. So you remove what seems essential. And that's, that's the first two steps of the process of where I see things going. I look for those really strong frustrations where there's no perceived solutions and then say, what is it I can remove that would make it better.

[36:21.1]
You know, the same thing with the games. What if we just remove screens entirely? What are we going to be left to do? We're like cavemen again. Oh, well, we can actually have conversations. We can actually use board games and use this board game like a metaphor for life and how we navigate it. So, you know, part of this, and I introduced you to Dr.

[36:40.7]
Steve Beerman, was this whole placebo effect. So if you take, if you would explain to the audience. Right, because, you know, in essence, it's, the ab testing kind of. One is a placebo, one is the real thing.

[36:55.8]
That's how scientists prove whether or not the drug is working or if it's literally, our mind shifting. You know, I happen to be watching something last night around Earthing. I'd never heard of the concept, but it's walking in your bare feet around the earth because inflammation is caused because we aren't connected to the energy that is actually in the earth.

[37:22.8]
Now you can look at the ions and all the rest of the stuff. Now, I know this sounds kind of strange, but really when you look at the concept, it's not that strange. So my question for you would be, in this placebo effect, what is it that you've.

[37:39.9]
Because I know you were getting ready to do an actual study and move this forward and so on. How does that play into this overall, you know, magic pill book? Yeah. So the thing about, what a pill, you know, in the, in the forward of the book, some healers talk about how the pill, specifically this X pill, is a modern day, archetype.

[38:06.5]
It's, it's essentially shamanism for the West. Because what is an archetype, an archetype is a symbol that has different meanings across cultures. And, the. The. Our brain, our unconscious thinks in the form of archetypes. What do I mean by that? If you dream of a bear, and I dream of a bear, that bear might symbolize your father.

[38:26.2]
Right. That bear, for me, might symbolize a big project that's. That's looming over me. Right. Same symbol, different meaning. That's what an archetype is. We both recognize it immediately. So what pills are, for Western society is now an archetype. Because what do pills mean? Different things. You're taking a pill for this, I'm taking a pill for that.

[38:42.7]
But we both understand consciously and subconsciously, because it's an archetype and an image that. What does a pill mean? A pill. You only take pills for change, right? You're looking to change something. That's why you're taking the pill. But the second is it subconsciously, in a lot of ways, represents commitment because you can't take it back.

[39:01.7]
So that's why when people take it, sometimes right after taking it, they are. And even before it, they're sweating, they're shivering. Like, there's a big difference between saying you're going to do something and then saying, I'm taking this pill for it. And I've seen people's bodies actually freak out because on, that.

[39:16.8]
On that subconscious level, the body knows, oh, crap, if we take this, it's real. And the example I use for that is there's a woman who wanted to quit smoking and took the ex pill for it. And, you know, it doesn't take away free will or anything. And afterwards she changed her mind and said, you know what?

[39:31.9]
I want to actually still smoke. She lit up a cigarette, took a drag, and immediately vomited everywhere. Because that's how strong the subconscious mind is and how seriously it reacts to this type of device that symbolizes commitment without turning back.

[39:49.1]
Interesting. So you're talking that this is pure commitment to taking the pill. Okay. Is really the source of having us shift our consciousness in.

[40:06.1]
In a very large way, because that's a big thing, no matter what. I mean, look, it's. You're not going to say, well, I'm going to take a cyanide pill because I want to. Right? You know, that's. And you know the result of that one, right? Yes, yes. So, you know, it's kind of like in the X factor.

[40:24.2]
Right. And when I say that they're, The matrix. The matrix, right. Because much of that was around the red pill. Right. So I get where you're going now. I know this all leads back to you looking at an analog way.

[40:44.7]
I've seen so many of these, these things, you know, where we're like, my son just sent me these and I'm, and I'm actually using them and I'll just show it to you because it's very analog. There's, it's this company that came up with these little cards for you to write the stuff versus you putting it digitally, whatever.

[41:04.1]
Right. And there's lines there and it says today with little things on it. And I forget the name of the company, but it, it's really quite interesting because a lot of these people in the computer, science arena are moving to some of these analog ways.

[41:22.2]
Right. So for you, what does that mean in this. I know you're pursuing these games and that these games will help people come back and make a shift in the way in which they look at the world.

[41:39.0]
Right. Because you're saying occupying the mind versus turning on something digital, versus moving away from something digital. Playing a game on your phone or your iPad or whatever it might be. What is your hope for the games? Yeah, it's, it's to bring fun back.

[41:58.1]
Honestly, like, okay, things, things can get so dull, they can get boring, they can get dehumanized. I think that's what I'm really about with both the culture work and the game work is it humanizes things. The games become way for people to connect and grow and learn.

[42:13.4]
And I think there's, you know, if you've ever seen somebody who's just stuck on their phone, there's something that just looks scary about it. You know, if you, if you went from the 80s to now and saw everybody staring at glowing rectangles everywhere, I mean, it would be like a horror movie. Like, what the heck happened?

[42:29.3]
Like they were being taken over. These devices are running the show clearly. They even show where we're going on the map. You just follow it, you do what it says, you look at it, you stare at it, you know, And I think that, that we're slowly becoming literally less human by becoming part device.

[42:44.4]
And I think this is, this is really to rehumanize ourselves and connect again. That is really quite a mission. Because we've become so inculcated with these machines. In essence, you know, you will be assimilated.

[43:02.9]
Right. I mean. Right. Kind of like it, it, it does feel that way at times. And when you, certainly when you see people, because there's car Accidents, people falling off cliffs because they were holding their phone, trying to take a picture. You know, it almost seems kind of just surreal, that you could be that engaged with an instrument or a device that would have you do something completely silly.

[43:32.7]
But it's happening every day, all day long, everywhere around this globe. Right. We're seeing it. And then to have, I don't know what the numbers of videos that are posted to YouTube is every day, but it's. I think it's in the billions at this point that, you know, I, I always wonder, Robert, about, you know, people that go around and this is no negative, but, you know, they're taking pictures of what they eat.

[44:00.4]
You know, who, who does that? I even say that to myself. Of course, that's a sign of, of me. I'm 70 years old. So I look at it like I'm 71, actually. I'm like, like, who wants to know what you ate for lunch? And so you're going to take a picture and post it, put it out there. Right, right, right.

[44:16.1]
I don't care what you ate for lunch. So I love what you're doing. I, do hope that it really turns into something where you can have people become less, digital and more analog.

[44:31.8]
Right. And think about the world in more of an analog way. Now, there are a few questions I still have left around the culture blueprint, because I think this is important. I want the listeners to be able to get there. Throughout the book, you talk about the importance of cross training and firsthand understanding, like how working as a waiter changed your relationship with service.

[44:56.4]
You said that what job or experience would you recommend that every person, regardless of their career, okay. Should have at least once to fundamentally expand their perspective on life. Look, I worked in gas stations.

[45:11.6]
I pumped gas. I, I was a busboy. I did all kind. I was. Worked in a landscaping business. I did all of those kind of things. And I think when you're talking about analog, many of those things you do is an analog.

[45:29.0]
That those were analog kind of jobs. They weren't sitting in front of a computer screen. Right. But I got the most fulfillment from the work, which I, when my dad owned landscape company, actually beautifying a property with my own hands, planting plants, building decks, doing those kind of things.

[45:52.1]
Right. It was really, really very satisfying. Yeah. And there was nothing digital about it. Not one thing. What made it so satisfying for you? What was satisfying is you get to see what you created at the end. You know, you literally.

[46:08.2]
There was a plan, right, To, To Beautify somebody's property. You knew where these certain plants were going to go. And in the end you got to see the dirt turn into something of beauty and that the people were just in awe when you were done. It's almost like a remodel.

[46:24.8]
Right. I do believe even in remodels of houses or building a house is there's something fundamentally between the connection of seeing something on paper and then manifesting that, and then the people who you're doing it for feeling so appreciative of what you've done.

[46:42.9]
And the accolades just went on and on and on. Yeah. I don't think in this digital world, you know, like, I do this podcast show, you're getting ready to do one for, this university for the Jewish and, and going to happen. As much as I love doing this, there are times when you finish and you think to yourself, well, you talk to somebody over zoom for an hour, and then when you were done with the conversation, it went out into the airwaves, but you never got to hear the response or the, or any kind of anything.

[47:18.4]
Frequently. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're really tapping into something there with the, with the analog jobs. I mean, you asked which ones. Definitely. I think the best one to do is, is being a waiter because we have so much experience on the other side of it. Right. So I, I think that's a really good one.

[47:35.4]
It reminds me too. I, I, I. You know, I went to Burning man several times, and one of the best experiences I had, you know, it's all kinds of parties and craziness and costumes, but honestly, one of my favorite experiences was working in the coffee shop. And I had this role where I was like, moving the milk from here to here and replacing this and moving that and checking on this and, and it's like I became part of an organism.

[47:58.9]
And to experience that, was just. I don't even have the words for it necessarily, but, like, to me, that's way more feeling like part of something, building something, and, like making something operational through teamwork, you know, versus, like, hey, Greg, can you check out my PowerPoint and give me some feedback?

[48:17.8]
You know, that's like, helpful. That's feedback. But we're not like a, a team in that. And so I think that that's kind of what's, what's missing, in a lot of ways is we all get independently on these screens and we don't a use our bodies more. That's what I think part of is, too, in your work that you just said in the waiter work, in the coffee shop work.

[48:36.3]
It's using our full bodies. And I think there's something just very healthy about that. And I think it's also an opportunity to, like, let yourself marinate on ideas while you're doing this work. Because it, it's a way to stay busy where if you just sat down, you'd get bored.

[48:55.9]
But doing these activities that you're like, you can kind of start churning through ideas and have your next big thing come up that way. Yeah, I agree with you. Because, you know, your mind kind of gets lost. And I know in, in, physical work, you get the opportunity, whether it's running.

[49:15.0]
Right. Let's just say, hey, you're a runner. I know you can get the high from the release of the endorphins from a run. It's physical, but you're outside, you know, you're in nature. And I think the big element for what I was, the work I was doing, I was in nature all the time.

[49:33.2]
Everything was around plants and, and, and basically beautifying a piece of property by using a living plant. Right. There was something about planting it and then going back a year later and seeing how all the stuff had grown.

[49:48.4]
And, you know, so there is something about that grounding, that I was talking about walking in the earth without your shoes on, Right? Yes, that kind of thing. And without being airy fairy. I really think there's something very deep to that. Totally can't agree more.

[50:05.2]
Yeah. So whether you're going to go run on the beach right now after hearing Robert and I, or you're going to go take a walk in the park, or you're going to go watch the leaves change back east, which I'm sure there's thousands of people still doing at this time of year.

[50:20.7]
That's the kind of thing that I think brings more joy, brings more peace and tranquility. You don't normally have an anxiety attack while you're watching the leaf colors change and. Right. You just don't have that.

[50:36.8]
Right. Yeah. Yeah. So. And it's almost like if. If you do it during the pandemic, it's. It's too late. You got to do that as a habit. Like, I'll oftentimes go out with my dog without my phone. And the first 10 minutes I'm wishing I had my phone. Right. But after I get used to it, you know, that's when some interesting new ideas start to come in.

[50:54.0]
Yeah. And, you know, my wife and I have made a Habit, of it. We just don't bring phones on walks. We see. When we take the dogs on walks, we see so many people that do, and they're walking their dog. They're not even paying attention to the dog. You know, and the dog has feelings too.

[51:10.8]
Right. So it's. The point is, is it's your time with your dog. Why not just spend the time with the dog? Yeah, right. And so I want to kind of wrap our interview up with this. So, look, we have thousands of listeners, but if someone listening to this interview takes away one practice or mind shifts, mindset shift, that could transform their personal journey.

[51:41.0]
Like, starting today, we've talked about analog, we've talked about digital, We've talked about the things you did at Zappos. We talked about having fun. We've talked about a lot of different things here. Not next month, but today. Okay. What would it be?

[51:59.1]
And how could they make their today more perfect? And what would you want them to feel and have happen as a result of spending this hour with us? Yeah, it's a great question.

[52:14.5]
You know, so anybody who's listening right now, what you've essentially done is loaded yourself with data through this conversation, and it's probably had some, some, some sensation, some emotions to it, maybe some sparked some ideas. But the thing is, you haven't integrated it yet. So if you just go, leave this and go to another podcast or you go to Instagram or something like that, it's.

[52:33.0]
It's kind of a wasted opportunity. So what I would say is to literally put down that phone or computer if you're watching it that way, leave your cell phone behind and go for a walk. You know, if people, have 91 1, if they have an emergency, they'll be fine.

[52:49.5]
You can go off for 30 minutes. And that would mean you're simply creating the space for you to integrate all you've learned here. And I don't know what that mindset shift is for you. That's the beauty of it is you're going to get to take in this information, go on it and let your mind. And I said, the first 10 minutes can be really hard because you, you think, I could be home right now, I could be doing something.

[53:08.8]
I could be listening to more podcasts, I could be educating myself. But people don't take a lot of time for that integration. And I think you've gotten from Greg and I, hopefully, some provocative, thoughts that, that can have an impact on you. And now if you create that space for them to integrate. That's where your genius comes in, because you're going to bring your life to it.

[53:26.9]
Your ideas, you might even say, literally, like those two guys, they don't even know what they're talking about. I'm gonna, I can. I've got a better answer for this, and that's great. I hope that inspired you in some way. Even if you think our ideas aren't good. Right. But create that space to, to, to figure out what your, your body and mind want.

[53:42.8]
Wants to do with it. And that's, I think it's going to be a great experience for you. Well, I think for all those listening, here's the book, the Culture Blueprint. Now, if you're working inside a business, this is a great book. There's also a free audiobook inside. Okay. There's this book as well, which is the other one we kind of blended into this, the Story of a Magic Pill.

[54:08.5]
We'll put links to both of these on Amazon, so that you guys can pick up a copy. You can get to all of Robert's work@justrobertrichmond.com that's kind of the corporate site. Then there's cultural blueprint.com and then there's the blog that he writes, which is robertrichman.com forward slash blog.

[54:32.8]
Check him out. He's going to be having a new podcast of his own starting here soon, which he's excited about. So, I'm excited for you. Congratulations on the joint venture.

[54:48.3]
You're doing it with the Jewish. What is it? Tell me again. It's, American Jewish University and the 2050 Institute. And the podcast is going to be called the Jewish Tomorrow, about the future of Judaism separate from Israel, separate from Anti Semitism even. And just what's the future of the Jewish people?

[55:05.0]
Well, I certainly hope that you get an opportunity to talk about the Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism while you're doing that podcast. Yeah. Because that's a very important element. Right. That I think was, been hidden away for years. But there's many rabbis that do speak about it.

[55:21.4]
I remember one of my first podcasts with the guy out of LA, which goes back, 18 years ago, was about the Kabbalah. And I think that it was. It was probably one of the most, I forget the rabbi's name. I can bring it up with probably one of the most interesting podcasts that I did.

[55:41.1]
Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So congratulations on your new podcast. Congratulations on these books. Thank you for all the work that you contributed and the work you did at Zappos and how that's changed so many corporations and their cultures.

[55:57.5]
I really honor you and the work you do. Namaste to you. Yes, thank you so much. Thanks. It's been an honor and pleasure to be here. You're quite welcome. Take care. Okay. Thank you for listening to this podcast on Inside Personal Growth.

[56:13.3]
We appreciate your support. And for more information about new podcasts, please go to inside personal growth.com or any of your favorite channels to listen to our podcast. Thanks again and have a wonderful day.