Podcast 945: Indirect Work: A Regenerative Change Theory for Businesses, Communities, Institutions and Humans with Carol Sanford

Returning for this podcast is a founder and designer of The Regenerative Business Development Community – Carol Sanford. We recently had a podcast together for her book The Regenerative Life: Transform Any Organization, Our Society, and Your Destiny and now she’s back to share another another one entitled Indirect Work: A Regenerative Change Theory for Businesses, Communities, Institutions and Humans.

Being a founder and designer of The Regenerative Business Development Community, a bestselling author and with all her amazing works and achievements, Carol was recognized as a Thought Leader Lifetime Achievement Award from Trust Across America-Trust Around the World, and received the Athena Award for Excellence in Business, Mentorship and Community Service.

Meanwhile, Indirect Work offers clear and practical approaches to test any change theory or programs for your organization, community efforts or personal growth, before you start or to examine what you do now. It can even help in making sense of past failures.

If you’re interested in learning more about Carol and her amazing works, you may click here to be directed to her website.

Thank you for joining Carol Sanford and I in this podcast. Happy listening!

THE BOOK

Indirect Work is translated and tested with study of thousands of years of effective change based on:

  • Indigenous ways of living in community and on the planet from across the world
  • Threads that run through wisdom of all lineage teachers across the world
  • Quantum Cosmology about how the universe works on individual, social, and plenary level.

THE AUTHOR

Carol Sanford is a consistently recognized disruptor and contrarian working side by side with Fortune 500 and new economy executives in designing and leading systemic business change and design. Through her university and in-house educational offerings, global speaking platforms, best selling multi-award-winning books, and human development work, Carol works with executive leaders who see the possibility to change the nature of work through developing people and work systems that ignite motivation everywhere.

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And we have a returning guest author coming to us from the Seattle Washington area. And her name is Carol Sanford. And Carol has well she's got a series of books, the regenerative life, the indirect work, but we're going to be speaking about her newest book called indirect work, which I know all of my listeners are going to find fascinating. Good day to you, Carol. We were talking about the weather a minute ago before we got on here. And it sounds like things are great up in the Seattle area.

Carol Sanford
They are in good money to you, Greg, I'm glad you're getting sunshine to.

Greg Voisen
We are indeed. And I'll let my listeners know something about you even though we did do the regenerative life podcast that we'll put a link to as well. This is another new book of Carol's Carol is consistently recognized, disrupter and contrary and if you listen to the last podcast, you'll be able to see that side by side with Fortune 500 companies, new economy executives and designing and leading systemic business change in design through her university and in house educational offerings, global speaking platforms bestselling multi award winning books and human development work. Carol works with executive leaders who see the possibility to change the nature of work. They're developing people work systems, and ignite motivation everywhere. For four decades, Carol has worked with great leaders of successful businesses such as Google, DuPont, Intel, p&g, seventh generation, educating them to develop their people and ensure a continuous stream of innovation, and continually deliver extraordinary results. If you want to learn more about Carol, just go to her website. It's Carol Sanford c-a-r-o-l-s-a-n-f-o-r-d.com. There you can learn about her offerings for books or resources. She's got a plethora of information, you can also go out on the internet and see interviews with Carol, on YouTube. So, Carol, this book, I found quite interesting, because it's really, when you say indirect work, it's the indirect work we got to do on ourselves. You know, and if you would tell the listeners about the premise of the book, indirect work and why you believe that the work of inner and outer transformation is the hardest work to engage in, so that we can evolve as individuals.

Carol Sanford
I think I would summarize that the reason I wrote this book, and what it's about is, the ability to create change doesn't come from working at it head on with other people or ourselves. If, for example, we try and do mayhem and modification ourselves, we mostly call attention to the thing we want to have change. But if we work on the capability to be differently, that twitcher, that inner work, we begin to see the world different and we get engaged differently. And the second thing that happens then, is we affect other people around us because we're different. But what is probably most disturbing to people is the you can and well, we know we can't change other people, but we don't quit trying. So in our marriages, our partnerships, we're always saying, well tell people what you think about what they're not necessarily telling them or trying to make them change, but working directly on the subject. So for example, if a child is being rude, our immediate thought is correct them in the moment and say, Now, we don't want to be rude. Think about how you'd feel. If that happened to you. Now that's direct. If it turns out what that does is within our brain, their psyche, it locks in the thing we did wrong, it doesn't necessarily give an image even though we may tell them what to do. What works better with children but also with employees is you engage in developing their capability to discover their own behavior, their own outcomes, and give them capability like with children, I run parenting groups also. You might write a puppet show and have the kids write and be involved in writing the show or writing a story or creating a play. I've actually done this with 1112 13 years old who are trying to figure out how to cope They write a play to help people understand something, and it changes them. But it's indirect. It's not head on.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, know that. Yeah, philosophy, Carol, I think is so appropriate, especially as the if you're going to evolve the consciousness of the individual. In other words, it gives them the opportunity to use their own critical thinking skills to do that. And I think one of the things that we see Carol Moore missing is really the use of these critical thinking skills in society today. And I don't say that it's being accelerated by the use of technology, but technology certainly isn't helping it any. Because we're dependent on Google to go search something or we're doing whatever versus us going in thinking about it ourselves. Now, in your chapter, chapter entitled, a new map, you state that most approaches to change, are all working from the old mind. And I've heard this terminology by many people that have written books, what we have modified or said, what we have modified, what we do, but we haven't addressed who we are, which is what you said just a minute ago. What advice would you give the listeners about finding out who they are so that they can make sustainable and meaningful change in their life?

Carol Sanford
Where I hear AR get to be contrarian? I did. Advice is the opposite of what I'm suggesting in this book, if I'm giving advice, then I have the ideas you're borrowing my it is you're not developing your own thinking. So what I work on is always building capability. So people select out of their own experience what's going on. So my first piece of advice is, don't ever take advice. Don't seek advice, don't ask other people's opinions. And that that's been indoctrinated into his for the last 100 years by something called behavioral psychology. And the whole foundation of behavior, wisdom was built on convincing people they can't think for themselves, it's Book Seven, there'll be out in a year. And if you go look there in order for psychology to get a foothold, particularly behavioral psychology, they set out and they put this in writing to convince each human, each parent, each child, each boss, or leader in some position, that they didn't actually know enough, you needed other people's advice, and you needed research based on positive, not your own examination. Wheel critic critical thinking skills, as you're talking about, are based on a friend to trust that we can discover if we experience and reflect. And that's the hard part is learning to be able to observe ourselves in real time, we will notice that that's a lie. It's a false premise that we can't do that. And yet every HR program in every company, all the parenting browses, all of education, is based on external feedback. And I wrote one book called onward feedback with all that research. What we have to learn to do is help kids to grow up and go to school, and people who work, learn reflection, and it's very learnable. But it's been taken out of our culture. So the real thing we all want to do is take back our own mind, not borrow ideas, unexamined, and not seek for other people how to vote, how to look for a job, what our career should be, think about the number of things when somebody else tells you that and grade you and ranks you. That's why I think that's even more an undermining factor than technology. Although I do watch the kids and I have a lot of 20 somethings in my groups. They have gotten pretty much addicted to the technology. And they'll tell you, it's so easy to kind of let your mind go blank. And another word for that is passive. So if you're passively taking in things from end to person, immediate somewhere, you're not working on active capability building and that's the foundation of good critical thinking and a society that works a democracy that works.

Greg Voisen
And I agree with you and I would say and I would add to that that you So one of the things that most entrepreneur business owners will speak about is development of their intuition. And I think that intuition is something that, and I wrote a whole book on it. And I did a lot of research for that book. And it's interesting how some people say, Well, I'm not intuition, and then I say, how did you come up with the idea? And they'll say, Well, I put the dots together, you know, I put this.that.net, not together. But ultimately, in the end, there's an action taken on the thoughts that they're thinking. And Carol, this isn't an act, this is an actionable book. And I want to make sure I get this term, right, I'd never heard it before, inter mesmos. And are met, so met and are met. So well woven into each chapter. And you state that this requires the reader to use intentional self-observing, then creating of a conscious awareness separate from ongoing mental activities, that allows one to objectively observe those activities, if you would speak about those inter mesmos. And, and what that's all about, because you have them at the end of each chapter. And I think it's great because it's very thought provoking.

Carol Sanford
Sure. And then Hermeto is an idea that originated in during the Enlightenment, whereas music and art, and everything were coming out, were flourishing, and had people supported the artists. And there was the idea of opera and symphony, as because the opera and Symphony were long there were breaks, you see two of them with at least one that were intermediate between the kind of the inner and outer story. And you're like, where it began, and where it ends in the opera, or in the symphony, the unfolding of the war and the settling of the war? What those inner battles were about, would you reflect on what was happening to you, we don't use them that way anymore. But if you're listening to an opera, you went out into the 48, or in the aisle, and you talk, you said, wow, as I was listening to that crescendo, it's, you know, move into a certain way, I was thinking it was making me think about, you know, my grandmother, and the stories and how I grew up, etc. So the inner mento, which is designed to give you a pause, and to reflect on what was happening to you, when I have written my previous five books, I noticed that people consume them. And I have an unusually high level of people reading the whole book, from beginning to end your life, people read the first chapter too, but I actually know that sounds great, right? But it turns out, what it means is, they're taking notes, underlining of borrowing my thoughts, absorbing them quoting me everywhere, and again, you think that'd be great, that terrified me, it was the opposite of what I wanted. So I decided, as I almost finished, indirect work, I had to slow that process down. I had to convert people to not talking about the story of the opera, and then what Carol wrote what she said, and how they were gonna use it, put these pieces apart, but instead say, ha, I can see how I'm reading. I'm reading in a way I'm not thinking, I'm not thinking for myself at all, I'm assuming Carol knows it all. And then I give people set of questions at the end of each chapter, which are inner reflection. And noticing that pattern I had so many people tell me after reading this book, they can never read any of the books in a passive way, in absorbing way, in a borrowing, all the ideas are examined without generating their own thinking. So I thought, haha, the opera internet to work. However, I've still had about 30 people who said, Well, I decided to come back and do the internet observer understood everything you were saying.

Greg Voisen
No, no wish you hadn't. Yeah, wish

Carol Sanford
you hadn't. So that was the purpose of it. And they build a bit right they go back and look at what are you learning and how's it working? So it's a I got the idea, I think not only from opera which I love the RMS house, but from breathing Lawrence Darrelle, the Alexandria quartet when I was 16 years old. It was a third book fora understood. And for anybody who doesn't know the quad, the four books, it's the same story from four different worldviews, literally, I mean, different voices, but just like someone who sees the world differently in you all of a sudden go, oh, my gosh, I can now see so many versions of this story. Why am I never done that anywhere else? And that's a child. I wanted to go look at everything from different worldviews. So that's where I borrowed well, and modified my idea. Well, I think you,

Greg Voisen
I think the Enter Mentos is, is a great opportunity for reflection for people. And I would say, definitely, when you read through this, and you look at what she's put it in there, it's kind of grade, you'll see it at the end of each chapter. Definitely go reflect on how you're feeling about what you're thinking, not about what Carol's thinking and right Carol's telling you in the book. Now, Carol, you tell a great story about the Chicago Bulls, Michael Jordan and coach, Phil Jackson. And you weave this throughout the book, which is really I thought, kind of unusual, actually. Because of the number of times that you actually reference back to it as a way to speak about indirect work. Now, this is truly a great story. And it sets the stage for our indirect work can transform lives and teams, which it obviously did for Phil Jackson, can you tell the story of what happened to the players and the team because I actually, I read it and I was like, Well, I knew Phil Jackson was a great coach, probably one of the best basketball coaches of all times other than who was the guy at UCLA? He's, he's equally as good. I'm trying to think of his name right now. I will. He passed away at 101 years old, actually. But Phil Jackson, obviously has it going on. You know, most people when they see him from the sidelines, they see a very peaceful man who's not, he's not agitated, he's not upset. He's holding a space for his players. And he's holding a space for you know, actually, I even think the audience too, because observe him. It's, it's he engages everybody. So I'd love you to tell him the story because I think it's a great one.

Carol Sanford
Well, he is the winning as coach in our basketball history. He has 11 NBA rings, you know, he then as he says, I don't have enough fingers. For all we have been in ever since I he's, he was a coach for most of the players we know names. Well, Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal. And that was with the at the Chicago Bulls and the LA Lakers. So this is Pro Bowl, you're thinking about college, and I can't think of who you're talking about either. But what he knew was that most basketball all basketball was driven toward drilling people so that they are shot became stars. They awarded and gave all kinds of bonuses for the number of shots and number three point shots and competing trying to move people around. So he was a big deal. However, he never told people he said, don't watch the scoreboard. Watch how well we as a team, are being in community. And think about that the work we have to do in the world, we will win. That will happen but it's not our work to win. It's our work to teach young black men in the inner cities, that there's a way to play and be in sport that is not cutthroat. There is not trying to compete and win, it's happening everybody play and he worked with a method that Tech's winner of the University of Texas figured out which had to do with making sure there's an equal distribution of scoring and covering across the team no stars, and they you learn to pay and triadic relationships so the you can move more quickly. But he also in the locker room didn't Arang drinks like you were describing on the sideline. Instead, he would have them sit and breathe together and starting with like, sit and notice grown breath. Now notice after a few minutes that you can actually experience the breath of the person next to you and I in a few minutes we can fill all of us remember breathing again. What does that have to do with how we plus, and they would reflect on that. So his whole way of working and he learned a lot of it from Lakota elders, where he grew up in the boarding house, his parents ran, where many Lakota young man came for work and live there. So I give many of certainly not all the indirect methods. At each point that is relevant, I picked him. First, I love basketball. I love Phil Jackson. But it allowed me to teach the messages of how much power can happen with a group of people when they don't try and win the game. They try and win their life while they're playing with themselves. And with one another is an amazing, I had a few people who were furious with me for using Phil Jackson, they said, well, it didn't change basketball at all, you know, a bet to people who were in the head office never got raises so well, it Phil Jackson had been in charge they probably would have. But it was never about money. So that's the Phil Jackson story of why I chose to use it?

Greg Voisen
Well, I think it's to use the kind of, I wouldn't say as cliché as but it's kind of like, you know, when people finish those games, those players have almost an out of body experience, right, and it gets something greater than the sum of the total. So the experience that they have, and when they would interview those players after a game, you could see that, and it wasn't just Michael Jackson, it was all the other players as well. And I can appreciate you using that story. And I want to thank you for using the story because I think it's a great way to weave it into the book to really tell what was going on here. And you mentioned that we need a way to Regulus rigorously examine our thoughts and those of other people. And that is that the role and the frameworks to use to disrupt the models implicit in old ways of thinking. What is that framework? And what are the you referenced them in the book, and I didn't give each one of them. But these levels of worldview, you just mentioned that you had read a book as a as a young adult, that gave four different worldviews, right? And or perspectives, per se, let's put look at it that way. What are those, and that framework if you could speak about,

Carol Sanford
so I didn't read a book. These are things I figured out after studying with Thomas Kuhn at Berkeley, who was the author of the structure, the scientific revolution, and the idea of paradigm shifts. It was amazing. I was 20 years old sitting in his class. And he kept saying every few decades, which science changes, what it thinks about how the world works. And then we still dry that old worldview with that old paradigm. And don't let go and I and a few ask him, well, how do you help people move? How do you know what those are? And he said, that's your job to figure out. I took that turns very seriously, personally. And by the time I was 27, I had learned the idea that frameworks can help you see the world at different levels. So I created something it's in all of my books, which is

Greg Voisen
where you also Carol, pardon me, but where you also I remember reading David Boehm. Yeah. Was he one of the people that had some influence on you as well, because I remember studying his work Personally, myself, because he's obviously fascinating. He was in England, most of his life was me.

Carol Sanford
Well, he was in the state. I never knew him. He was older than me. And they'd been at Berkeley. I think, 20 something years before me, but his students, and he was working on a doctrine. So a few professors who'd worked with him, were in the concerts, I had to take basic physics. And we did, we talked a lot. So those I got to meet Kuhn, because he was on campus for, I think, 18 months as a scholar or fellow or something. So I didn't I took bombs work when I was later and create something out of it. And well, yes, those people both had a huge influence on me and quite a few other people. But you asked for the framework, and I think it might be helpful. The world views framework starts with an extract value. And that means I'm trying to give all I can so when somebody is in giving advice mode, you tell me or give me your takeaways or what when am I gonna get there? extract value. The next. And we knew that a lot with the earth with not the earth with earth gets that turn name. And we will do that in transactions, the next level of paradigm is arrested disorder. And you can look into the world and even Jackson talks about, we spend so much time turned to stop all the bad stuff. And so that arrested disorder, we can look for the next level up, which even Jackson talked about, then he was trying to do good in the world. And I think if he had known there was a fourth paradigm, he would know that much of what his work was about was not do good, because do good can be dangerous, it can be my good I want you to I will be good for you. And colonize your nation or take your children away and reeducate them. Those are all done in the name of do good. But the last and highest paradigm we can see the world from is living systems, how life works, how, how it comes together. So learning that one of hundreds of frameworks and there are no set number, but mine I will come through lineage teachings or with you know, they come to famous, my Buddhist teachers or Hindu teachers, there are threads through all of those that can give us and help us overcome mental models which are invisible, and causes us to see the world in one of those, but partial. So I think what Jackson was working on and what I worked on is giving people frameworks or ways to develop frameworks that open their mind to other worldviews. I think that's what happened to me. It's a 20-year-old.

Greg Voisen
Well, I remember interviewing not that long ago, you know, Ken Wilber and he has one of his books was like, the worldview of everything, right? And it was interesting to, for somebody to actually take the length of time that Wilbur had to try and put all the pieces together. It was it was fascinating. But you know, Caroline, you know,

Carol Sanford
I need for you to know, I don't think he did that. I think that was his intention. But he what he did is took the work that Sri Aurobindo and The mother had done and translated it, I think, poorly and too popular.

Greg Voisen
And I would agree with you, but he, he at least made an attempt. And it's like anybody in this world who's either writing a book or trying to get a message across, I think he's trying to reach a certain audience that might that have that appeal. Let's face it, that's kind of what happens. But in you know, in your chapter, a theory of change, you speak about our own personal transformation from the fundamental Christian beliefs to that of embracing science. Now, that's a that's a big step, you know, you're looking at these fundamental Christian beliefs, then you state for the next 15 years after arriving at Berkeley, that evolution of paradigms within a culture has was not a linear process, if you would speak with us about the fourfold path of the matrix, the way implicit orders, order and indirect work, because that is really kind of at the essence of, you know, where you're where you're going. least that's what I felt.

Carol Sanford
So I would add this a little bit to your interpretation of my life, which is important to the answer to your question, which is, and went from my mental models of Christianity. To for a while point I would call positive as scientists, science and modern popular science. But I quickly went past him.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I'm sure there were steps. I'm sure you just didn't go from Christianity to what

Carol Sanford
I went past both of those I let go of all of the positive is science and joined indigenous science and lineage science and quantum science. And those are very important. And that's where David bone came in. Yeah, David Bohm talked a lot about the kind of science we do nowadays fragment in thing is it a part one of his book, wholeness, and the implicit order said, we have to let go of Newtonian science. And Einstein has a great story, which I think encapsulates my, my matrix idea and science that goes with it, which was, Einstein had some famous quote saying, don't use the old mine that created the problem, to cry and find the new one because he won't be any better. Right? And someone said when he was inception. And one of the professors I had at Berkeley was in concert with him at Princeton, and told this story and I published it a few times. He said, Well, what do you mean by that? Dr. Einstein? He said, Well, I mean that if you are using Newton's idea of physics, you're seeing the world, the through the view of it being a billiard ball table, I think he meant pool because he said, there are pockets on it. And you're defining the pocket, and you're figuring out who the cue balls are, and you think you're the cue stick dancer balls into the pocket you chose, and then people will go there, it doesn't work that way. They said, if you understand quantum science, it's sense a world is a matrix. And if you think about the matrix, like when a baby is born, it's in a womb, which is the matrix, and that womb is nurtured. And but the baby and the fetus chooses what it takes, you don't feed the baby, you don't decide what their arms or legs look tall, again, these organs and when the heart, but all of that is in the control of the being the scrawling, when we screw up in society, it's because we think we're Kusik. And because we try and do something other people, that's the direct way we picked the pockets, we are the Kusik. Instead, we are the nurturers of a woman to make sure the room is healthy to choose from, for it to grow from. So one of the reasons I talked about is how to build a culture and I hear people write about culture is a billiard ball game, where you get these things to happen, you put these in place, and then all that will happen. And your role is as a leader demand all that's a definition trying to take the matrix and make it valuable table. And so Einstein meant he told his students in his words, you have to let go of the billiard ball view, the pool table view, and switch to a matrix view. And that when I was why was using,

Greg Voisen
I was gonna ask you, though, but that let me use this term, maybe I think my listeners might relate that a femoral element versus a construct on one side. In other words, the construct is the is the cue and the ball and getting it into the pocket. And we are kind of, I don't, I'm not saying we have to be designed that way. But we kind of are designed to that way as human beings to try and find a solution to try and provide advice to do. And I'm not saying that this is what we want the listeners out here to take away and say, That's what I am. But they've got to break an old pattern, you said an old mindset, and that that mindset is pretty ingrained in a lot of people. I mean, if you look, you work with CEOs all the time, you've got to restructure this thinking, because I would almost guarantee you that 80% of those CEOs are thinking about the billiard ball, and, and the and the accused stick, trying to get it in and reconstruct that way. Because that's the way they're used to doing it. They're not used to creating a womb and saying, Okay, we're going to nurture the womb, that isn't how they think. Right,

Carol Sanford
and they don't even create their womb, they nurture one. So first, I do not think we're built that way. I do not think we're designed. I think we're conditioned that way. And that became very popular at some beginning of 20th century with behaviorism. Because the whole behaviorism idea was would decide what you want a child to be like for anybody to make our society work, where we don't have to have bad people in them. And so we were all taught to do what you just said to advise. We were net, we lost all the capacity for our sacred schools. They don't exist much except in little hidden places and around the globe. We were lost our capacity for self-observing and self-remembering and actually think we can rebuild that capability and when all my work is by referral, one executive to another who said this changed my life and it changed my business and be able to get my website you'll see. Read the referrals are all the introductions in my book. It's not about me, it's that I've stumbled on something that is really powerful. And if I don't think I'm making them any particular thing, I don't have a symbol and I don't have a program. I don't have a way you work. I educate so that they develop in the mind and understand that they are learning to look at rigid patterns, like even Phil Jackson said, I didn't copy the Lakota, I became the Lakota, I had to really work on seeing the world differently. And one time I did, no one had to tell me what to do. I knew my job was a role that was serving the development of the womb, He uses the term womb also, and the womb of his team.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I think I totally get what it is, it's like an artist with a canvas, you know, you're providing a canvas. And they're able to draw whatever they want on the canvas, or to create whatever they want to create. And I think many people don't look at it as a canvas anymore as a blank canvas. Well,

Carol Sanford
I think I'm teaching them to paint. So they discover what the medium is they want to use it, we all think t that would be direct shell, the indirect is all I do is build capability, build cultures, and build consciousness, I should not use the word I in any of those sentences, take them all back. I am worried that the capability and the work that allow people to do that for themselves?

Greg Voisen
Well, I think maybe a good way to do this would be to talk about the way triad and the three disciplines that describe the way or the goal point on the change framework of capability and culture and consciousness. Also, if you would reference back to Phil Jackson, and how he utilized this change technology, I called it technology call it at will to transform his team and his players, because he did do. I mean, you know, we've referenced him once already, I think in the book, you reference him, almost in every chapter. But you know, the reality is you've used this story and weaved it in. And it's a really live real story about a team and a coach. And it works. So the question is, if you would reference back to Phil, and what to utilize the change technology to transform his team and players. So I'll

Carol Sanford
remind people that the way of segment is a social technology, right, rather than physical one was he was always working on making the capability of his team greater, not on print here, role plays running through the motions, and figuring out how you get some extra attention. He would do lots of reflection in the locker room. And so you would ask them? Well, if you think of our audience, and he had three nests, and he had all the people who were watching a game, people who ran the game, but always the mostly black kids who were following these fires, and he would say, Now, if you think of all them as things, what would you think of and people say, well, tickets to the game and people who post their picture on social media? If you think I'm gonna miss types? No, this was a different level, right of seeing. All right. What do you think of as you think of our, our audiences, people who go from things, she kind of types or some broad sense? And they'd say, Well, I guess I began to see him growing up and really get them becoming winners or losers or something, they become more alive. And he said, why? laughs What happens if you think of the essence of each child, or even each audience member, and there would be a lot of quiet, at least your report is where people just shifted gears. It's like it went from no longer some objective, objectifying view of them as money and some kind of good or bad, you instead really begin to think of particular kids who come up to you after the game, or in the neighborhood. And you realize that each one of them had a deep essence where they were seeking to bring themselves into the world a more meaningful way. And what they would report after doing those exercises regularly for a couple of years, is they couldn't go into a neighborhood anymore. And now look at each child, not connect with him not listen, what they bring in, what are they struggling with? They went into classrooms and hospitals, not as thinking these people the kid, you know, and not black and white kids and I gotta help With this one, but more, each child has something and my work is out, bring that out that change how they thought when they were in the arena playing, there was there were children there, who had to up until then be more like tickets to them in their previous coaches tickets to the game followers on social media, although they didn't have as much social media then. But followers that ability to have a kind of capability to see the world and go into a different view a different way of understanding change who they were?

Greg Voisen
Well, I think, if I'm not, if I'm not mistaken, you know, what's popping up for me intuitively is labeling. Yeah, categories. Were saying when label somebody as a ticket, we label somebody as a, you know, participant or something. Instead, remove the labels. I think everywhere you go, even in a structure of a corporation, unless it's flat, but you have this hierarchy of labels, you got a president, you got to CEO, you've got no, you've got a CTO, you've got and you define and as you do that, it's not just people coming together, it's certain individuals in there, I mean, would that be a great, or that'd be a way to kind of look at it is remove these labels?

Carol Sanford
Well, that's the second level. And you remove the second you do that by going to the third level, we're talking about our framework, right. So as a bone says, we categorize everything in the man we categorize, we have to have a name for it. So it's the thinking that creates the category we have to remove not, you can't remove the label, as long as you still got the idea of their categories. And if you don't have the idea that everything has an essence, so third level to our framework, you don't know what why get rid of categories, you'd say, well, what do I call them? Right? You just create another category that was maybe less racist or less hierarchical like associates, that is still categorizing what we want. It's a framework. That's the key to this book, not an action plan, stop using labels, which I agree we should. But the key is, that's not what Jackson did. He taught people see, there were actually four levels, I went to three, because all we have time for today is to notice why try to notice when we're thinking, notice when we're categorizing and noticing the effect of that that's the important work is noticing and using it to self-observe. And then notice, when you step into a real person, they have their own unique being learning to use that framework. It's what he worked on.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I and I think you say the essence of the book is that you call it thinking you've said thinking many times, if you could, if we could get away from thinking stuff, people and look at the framework, the larger you say, three levels, there's another level as well. But I think that this book, is designed for us to question that it's designed for us to look at the work we have to do within ourselves to actually make this transformation and to open our minds of the readers. And for them to see the world order in a transformative way. What takeaways would you like to leave listeners with regarding the book and how it can help them personally and professionally transform their thinking and subsequent actions to make this world a better place because in the end, this book is about improving ourselves to make the world a better place.

Carol Sanford
So take aways is direct write that to ask you for advice, and creating what I think is bad from quartet the opposite books, so let me enter question but a different way. That's fine. Okay. Listen for how often we want direct or not, not just you, I do it too. It's like we fall into what are the key points? What the advice what can I do to change that? What expert and I think the most important thing for us to do is to notice how passive we are to our own critical thinking, our own personal development. We don't observe the effects of how things are happening. Like if you wanted to do anything with this podcast, and sin of if you took notes, throw them away and ask what questions would you would it be great if you were out asking you now that you build a long thought on and what I mean by long thought it you say, I'm gonna start writing about that subject, like, learning to observe myself. And I'm gonna write a new version of every day, I'm not going to accept the answer I had yesterday. And we keep working on building a deeper and deeper thought, that's my own. That's the most important work we can do and catch ourselves when we think someone is an expert. I mean, hopefully, I've gotten all the word expert and leader out of all my bios, because the minute we do that, we're creating categories, like you said, labels. And so become mindful, that's the most important thing I think we need as a country as a people.

Greg Voisen
Well, I, your comment about a long thought is really, really, I think, excellent. You know, I did say takeaways, because, you know, usually at the end, when there's podcasts, people are looking to say, okay, how am I summarizing this? Now, what I'm saying is, if you removed the summary, and all they took away, I'm going to use the word again, was long thought that, that really today, what I got from Carol, was to write about something, and then write about it in a different way, tomorrow, and then the next day, and the next day and 10, you continue to evolve, that thought that what we were talking about your critical thinking skills. I think that's the best thing that anybody could do. Now, it's not my job to provide advice on somebody else's book, your job as a listener, is to go by the book, read it and create your own thoughts around the book, not mine, or Carol's, because that's what Carol is basically saying, pick up the book, read it, take some time, digest it, you know, use it as she was talking about. Let me let me just show her math SOS, the inner Matt says, I'm trying to find them. There's the inner matzos in each of these chapters. Those right there could be all that you really need. You know, if you did the internet since that time to think and reflect. And, Carol, I want to thank you for being back on again for taking some time with our listeners to explore the indirect work. And I actually liked the term indirect work, although I'd say it's just work period. We've got we've got to do the work. And I think you, you, you give people so much to think about and I think that's the best thing is you're stimulating their thoughts. Thank you so much for being on inside personal growth, sharing your wisdom. But at the same time, with that wisdom, giving us the opportunity to create our own wisdoms, and thoughts and ideas, that is the most important part because we all have our own ability to think through our critical things that are happening in our life and what we need to do about them. We don't always need somebody else's advice on how to solve something right. Thank you so much, Carol. Have a good day.

Carol Sanford
Thank you and thanks for being so present greatly enjoyed it. Thanks.

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