Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from New York is Chuck Garcia. You can see it by there. It says chuckgarcia.com. And we're gonna be talking about his book A Climb to the Top. And the subtitle is Communications and Leadership Tactics to take your Career to New Heights. We'll check the date. Yeah. How are you doing?

Chuck Garcia
I'm very well, Greg, thank you. And good day to you as well. We are on opposite coasts. So it's very nice to connect from east to west.

Greg Voisen
It is and it's a beautiful day here in San Diego. How is it in New York? Is it believe it

Chuck Garcia
or not, we actually have a San Diego day. It's beautiful, sunny, and in the 60s, we really had days like this. So thank you, Greg, for bringing us your weather we needed it. It's been a lousy spring.

Greg Voisen
You know what those lousy springs with the rain and all the rest of stuff they make for beautiful springs, you say spring but summer now with all the blossoms and so on. So I always appreciate that. And you know, I'm going to tell our listeners a little bit about you. Chuck is the founder of Climb Leadership International, and coaches executives on public speaking emotional intelligence, of which he has a book that He's almost done with coming out on emotional intelligence. I wanted to make sure we got that in there. But what's going to be the title of that book, Chuck.

Chuck Garcia
Right now the working title is called the moment redefining what it means to be smart.

Greg Voisen
Great. And once we do that, we'll do a podcast with you make sure thank you. Um, he's a professional speaker, Amazon Best Seller, a radio talk show host of climb to the top stories of transformation. He coaches Leadership Development at Columbia University's Graduate School of Engineering, and is passionate and accomplished mountaineer. And obviously for the title a climb to the top. Now, you know, you start this book off with the mountain climbing story about admin Hillary and Tenzing Norgay, the first climbers to ascend Mount Everest. And I happen to be very familiar with this topic, because I'm helping a gentleman write a book about his quest to the Seven Summits and I've been interviewing mountaineers. And I've found a lot of interesting similarities. Can you tell our listeners about the lessons that you've learned from mountain climbing, and how that kind of reef relates to what you call the Law of Reciprocity, it applies to mountain climbing. And I think that you were actually referring to that in kind of a base camp example. Kind of getting along with others and, and being able to work together. But let's define it. And then tell us what your lessons are about leadership that you've learned from mountain climbing, because you've been some of the highest peaks yourself.

Chuck Garcia
Indeed, no, thank you. And I appreciate that. That intro, Greg, appreciate the kind words, I think the important part that I first want to convey is the reason I titled the book, a climb to the top. It was interesting as I was climbing mountains, what I found in it was on Kilimanjaro, when we were finally at the bottom at the end of the whole expedition, as I reflected on what did we just do? It was a metaphor for how I climbed my career. Because I thought about when you go up a mountain, no matter what it is, you've got a backpack. And those tools are very important. And the climb to the top uses mountaineering as a metaphor for career climbing, but the toolkit or communication tools, and there's a variety of communication tactics I described in the book. But there was something incredibly special. When I thought about what did it feel like climbing that mountain felt exactly like my career and three ways. And the first one is, we as a team, collectively, we set a goal. You don't always reach it, but you know what you wanted out of this? The second one was it was one step at a time. And when I look back at my career, I know and I see many of my students if they want shortcuts, they want to be the CEO in two years. Well, my career just didn't work that way. It was a step at a time. And the third Greg, which is why I went with Tenzing Norgay and Edmund Hillary was, you can't do this alone. mountaineering and career climbing are not solo ventures. They are based on the quality of the people on your team. And what I found in it was particular it hit me this law of reciprocity when I climbed a mountain in Alaska that I thought was way beyond my own potential. antral I was so in awe of the amount of people that helped me and my mates climb to the top and the bottom. And what I found is this law of reciprocity. What I found is the more generous they were to us, in helping us with our technical skills, or breathing techniques. And just in caring about our goals and objectives. We as a team were gushing back in our generosity of how we wanted to not only give them back the equivalent of what they gave us, we were so inspired to give back more because they were so kind and generous in their skills and sharing them with us. So when we look at what Sir Edmund Hillary and Norgay did, there were 20 teams for the last 15 years before them that tried and did not accomplish their feet. And when you read about their expedition, this law of reciprocity, the team from the very base camp when they started to assemble that led them to the top, and I will say that that Hillary and Norgay were not originally selected to be the two gentlemen to make it to the top. They just happened to be in the best shape based upon the people who helped them to put them in a place for success. So that law of reciprocity, Greg, it was it applies on the mountains, it applies careers, it applies to families, if you want to be successful, help others to be successful, and they will, in turn, do everything in their power to reciprocate that generosity.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's a basic premise of most spiritual teachings, and in particular, the Buddhist teachings. So I would say that it's one that simple, but it's one that I think sometimes the ego gets in the way of, and it prevents people from having that generosity because they think they know it all. Or they can do it all or they can do it on their own. But

Chuck Garcia
I couldn't agree more because also I grew up in a very Wall Street world. And Wall Street is not a Wolf of Wall Street, although there certainly that's an entertainment consideration of how you can watch Wall Streeters behave. But Wall Street is a place driven by fear and greed. And when you have that many people who are dominantly driven by those two characteristics, there's a lot of self-absorption, and not a lot of thinking about how do I help other people. So I think no matter but Wall Street doesn't have a monopoly on self-absorption. It's all over the place. But I state that because even in the Wall Street world where people were stepping on each other's toes in order to make money. I never forgot where I came from the values that that my parents taught us about being kind and generous, that can work in all kinds of universes. If you just be patient with it, and just stay focused on helping people, they will go to the end of the earth for people that help them. So it's universal, it's Buddhist, but it's New York, it's Wall Street, it's sports, it's all kinds of things. And if I make it my life's mission, if I can just get one thing, it's tried to help people come to that conclusion and to practice it.

Greg Voisen
Well, I think someone asked me a long time ago, you know, what is your purpose in life and I said exists to serve to inspire passion. And to me, that was always around giving people clarity. I remember that, you know, the more you can help people understand. You know, Bucky Fuller used to say this, seek to have them understand Don't be misunderstood. And, you know, it's may sound like such like a simple thing. But the reality is, if you're going to do a speech, and people walk out, confused, more confused and when they walked in, that's not a good place to leave people. The way you want to have them is make sure that they understand, even if they maybe don't understand it fully, but you don't want to let have them leave being confused that I did know.

Chuck Garcia
That is Stephen Covey's in the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. That's one of the habits seek first to understand pause for dramatic effect, then to be understood in that

Greg Voisen
order. Yep, exactly. Now, Chuck, you mentioned that one of your role models was John Keating, played by Robin Williams late Robin Williams, who was just a phenomenal actor in the movie, The Dead Poets Society, which I thought was Crazy good movie. What did John Keating exemplify that you want your coaching clients to learn from you? I think as people reflect on this movie, if they saw it and they listened, and they saw it, they probably get this, but I think it's an important one. So, there you go.

Chuck Garcia
Yeah. No, thank you. I appreciate the runway on this. I remember when I watched, I was a fan of Robin Williams Well, before I watched this movie, so back from Mork and Mindy, or whatever movies he made before I was like, wow, this guy is really something. I have not seen someone with this abundance of talent. Maybe I have, I never recognize it. But whatever movie he's in, I'm gonna watch. And I didn't quite know what Dead Poets Society was. I just knew I was going to Robin Williams movie, what the heck, and whatever it is. As I watched that movie, and I watched the scene in Sue where he walked into the classroom, and he had his students stand up on those desks. And they were blurting out my name is whatever that is, and they were looking feeling awkward. And I thought about, oh my god, I sat through endless array of cram exam, regurgitate, never leaving my desk, just trying to just spit out everything I learned. Where do we get a teacher like this? Look at the enthusiasm that he is arousing among his students. I've never seen anything like this. I had two teachers throughout my entire high school and college that were close to this not quite, but I'll give them enough credit. They were close. But I remember and people were asking, Mr. Keating, why are you asking us to stand on these desks? And he took a big pause. And he asked one of the students named Neil who was played by Robert, Sean Leonard, take a look around. What do you see. And he started describing from the vantage point by being on the desk, he had seen things in the classroom he had never noticed before. Because when they came in sitting at the same desk looking at the same Blackboard, the view never changed. So Greg, what really appealed to me is this is a teacher who's not only arousing enthusiasm, but thematically what he was describing his to his students is, and I'll quote, we must constantly remind ourselves to see things in different ways. Unquote. Nobody ever encouraged us or taught us to see things differently. They encouraged us to cram exam and repeat it so that when we got 100, on the exam, we could all high five and see how smart we were, Greg, that character helped me to redefine what it meant to be smart, and to redefine what it meant to teach. And I am at Columbia University, although I never envisioned I would ever teach that wasn't me. I'm a Wall Street guy. Oh, my goodness, that teaching and coaching is based on what I learned from that wonderful character, John Keating. And Robin Williams, I know you're up in heaven, but thank you for helping me to come to class, so I can help others in the same way.

Greg Voisen
You know, that's a really great story. And stories move people. And I love you telling that on the podcast. And I remember a guy who used to be a photographer, and this goes straight along the line. For National Geographic, his name was Rob, I think was Robert De Witt. And he shot 1000s of pictures of which a few would only be chosen for National Geographic. And this one time, I'm going to add to this, he got this intuition, something came to him a voice from inside. Wherever the voice came from, I wrote a book on intuition. So I should know, a feeling and it said turn around to win, turn around. And then from that point forward, he turned around and he got different vantage points, different views. And then he would lay down on the ground, and then he'd go up in a tree. And he'd hear these voices telling him to do certain things that he'd never done before because his viewpoint or vantage point, was always the same at eye level. Let's take a picture. Let's do this. Let's do that. Right. The point was, you must listen inside for messages to be heard about getting different perspectives. and viewpoints on things and look for the signs and symbols that are all around you, almost every day, giving you a message that you need to open up your consciousness to, and possibly whatever that message might be. Either act on it or think about it. And you have a story in the book about how much does your life way, I love that as much as in your pack your backpack. You cite Ryan Bingham, played by George Clooney and the movie up in the air. And Ryan started his speech with this question. And I thought, it's a great question. Speak with the listeners about the art of making a good impression and mastering the primacy effect, as you call it in the book. Because, you know, that question, you know, how much does your life way? I think if you ask a lot of people, they probably say it's pretty heavy. Yeah,

Chuck Garcia
this was the first chapter in my book. And it's called the primacy, recency effect on the notion that as human beings, we tend to remember the first thing we hear from somebody, we're very good at remembering the last thing. That's the recency effect. But at 125 250 words that we speak as it is in English a minute, it's very difficult to remember what's in between. So I thought about when I walked into meetings, or I've been on the receiving end of watching some incredibly boring speeches, I began to notice how people open up in the meetings and presentations, and they bumble around for about two minutes, they talk about their weekend, and then I surprise, right stubbed my toe, and all of this blather that nobody is going to particularly key on, but that's what they remember. So they don't even remember what the meeting was about. They just remember how it opened. And when I thought about that, in my career, as a public spokesman for Bloomberg for many years, I started to experiment with different openings. And what I found rather than getting up there and just start blabbing away, I said, how do I provoke an audience? How can I engage them in the first five seconds? Instead of me, recognizing maybe they're coming to hear me having something to say, but I don't want to be the one making the statements. I learned early on from Mike Bloomberg, that the smartest person in the room is the one who's asking the questions. So why don't I begin my communication that way? And when I saw the movie, and I up in the air, and I saw George Clooney throw out this abstraction, how much does your life weigh? In the first three seconds of that engagement? He immediately had his audience provoking a change in how they were thinking about what they were going to hear? And how much does your life Wait, that doesn't make any sense, we can't weigh our lives, or can wait. And the primacy effect is using questioning techniques to provoke a change in the mind of your audience before you've even laid down any words of wisdom. So Ryan Bingham, the character who was flying around the country, laying people off in the financial crisis, was trying to help people recognize that most of the things that are causing you any kind of discomfort or, or you're not moving as quickly in your life as you wish you would, is because you are so bogged down by all this stuff. And how much does your life way he talked about put, take every possession you own and put it in the backpack and see how your posture is, and you get weighed down? And I thought that was Greg, just an illustration of helping people to recognize when you walk into a meeting, or when you're giving a speech? Don't be the ones always making the statements throughout a question that provokes a change, or helps them to think, even if for three or four seconds. Hmm, what’s he asking me? I never quite thought of it that way. Oh, my God, that makes perfect sense. And that is the great setup for all the words of wisdoms that are going to come, but allowing the audience to participate in that primacy effect. And getting them to think differently

Greg Voisen
Is a primacy effect because it's like a primer. And I think it's a primer for actually using critical thinking skills, which we don't actually use enough versus, versus sitting in an audience and waiting for somebody to inform us. How about posing a question that actually makes you think about something that's important to you? And I think that's, I think it's brilliant. I have seen people use it quite effectively many people and I think it's a wonderful technique so all of you leaders who are listening, next time you do a meeting, why don't you try? Want to Chuck's questions when you open up your meeting, versus like he said your step toe thing, or I went to dinner here, wherever I went, that might be a better way to start your meeting. Now, Chuck, it's obviously that your father was your hero and your mentor, you quote him in the book as saying humans are not thinking machines, they're feeling machines? What are the three key principles we need to keep in mind when we connect with people's emotions? When doing a speech, or I say, just in a one to one meeting doesn't have to be a speech? It can be anytime you're communicating with another soul on the planet?

Chuck Garcia
Yeah, and I appreciate that context. Because when I wrote the book, even though I so much of my career was based on my public speaking skills, what I found is when people got to know me, they said, when they saw me on stage, and then I had, let's say, I had dinner with them. What many observed in me, Chuck, you're exactly the same. The way you're talking to me is the way you spoke to me on stage. And my question to them, did you expect something different? Like I was surprised by that? And they said, Yeah, I did. Usually when we see someone on stage, there's a certain way they are. And then when we meet them, whether it's over a cup of coffee, or whether there's something different about them, it's as if they're play acting on the stage. And yet, they said to me, you were you're the, the guy, we're meeting right now is the same guy, we saw that we mean that in a very complimentary way. So that's when it dawned on me that what I'm actually teaching is not just a public speaking model, this is a model for how we communicate one on one or one to many. So I knew then that why should I even keep this in, in speech context, use the same tactics primacy effect. In this case, this is chapter two, called The Power of emotional appeal. And what I learned from my father, who was a professor of linguistics at the United States Military Academy in West Point, so he trained army officers, and he trained them in certain language techniques, because they had to learn how to communicate. But through all of that, and through all of his brilliance, he constantly reinforced to me and my brothers, that no matter what that brain power is, no matter how well you do on exams, he encouraged us to always place the humaneness first, that we as human beings feel we feel first, we think second, and I think his teaching methods were very much rooted on that when everyone else many of his colleagues are all about the mind, get you to think How smart are you? My father helped us also like John Keating, they are my heroes, my dad and John Keaton were the best teachers I've ever seen. He helped us to recognize when it comes to connecting with people, you have the mind, you have the heart, and you have your intuition. Do it with the heart, let them know you care. And if you want to express to them your brilliance, don't try to do it with the mind. Don't even try to do it with the heart in the way that makes you look smart. Connect with them, ask them about their hopes, their dreams, their aspirations, don't talk about yourself. That's not what's on display here. You are not here for you, you are on this world to help others. And the only way to do that is to connect with them on an emotional level. And how do we do that? Same isn't the primacy effect? Start asking them questions. Tell me Greg. What, what are your dreams? What are your What did you think about what do you want to do? And the more you can do that people can begin to think oh my god, he or she is showing an interest in me. Nobody's showing an interest in me. And it's just a simple technique. To remind ourselves, if you want to connect with people on an emotional level, it's pretty simple. Ask them about themselves. And they will talk about their favorite topic. them.

Greg Voisen
That's absolutely true. You'll also learn so much if you stop and listen. And there's always two sides to a conversation unless you're talking to yourself and then people might think you're insane. But the reality is, is that when you are in a dialogue, not a monologue or dialogue with somebody, you're able to not only not wait for the next question to ask, but really be with the person after you ask the question, because that's when you're going to learn the most from them, versus going into some for foreign land where you're trying to extract the next question that you're going to ask somebody. And I've probably learned this pretty well after 950 podcasts. You know, you don't always have to go into the sequence. I know for my listeners, they don't know how I do this. But I prepare, I read a book I prepare I formulate questions. I have them on an iPad next to me. But frequently, they're not in order. They're not the same questions. They're based on me following Chuck's lead, you know, where did Chuck go with this? So that's an important thing, because you can learn a lot more that way. Because you can go deeper, you can go a lot deeper with IT person.

Chuck Garcia
Well, let me let me express Greg before the next question how grateful I am for the time that you took to prep for this. This was this is extraordinary. Your command of the book I could tell from the questions, your you are living your values. And you may have heard that before, but you never heard that enough. Thank you for that. And it's wonderful.

Greg Voisen
I appreciate the accolade thank you because I do take this, it's important to me now, in the chapter title conviction. Courage to commit you state that conviction is a balancing act that requires caution and care. What are the three central truths? And you cite this finish communications theorist? Cosmo, whoa, whoa, whoa,

Chuck Garcia
whoa, yeah, that depends on how you pronounce is good enough.

Greg Voisen
I've never heard of him before. But if you would speak, he spoke about when it comes to conviction. In other words, what were the central truths of that? And I'd love for you to convey it to the listeners, because I think it's, it's so important in the world in which we live today.

Chuck Garcia
Yeah, no, and no question. Well, thank you for that lead in. Because when I when I was writing the book, I thought about it, I was just confounded over the course of many years. Why are relationships many of them so disastrous? Why are people's careers so bad in spite of their brilliance? And what I found it all came down to? I know what you said, tell me what you heard. And often what people said and what someone heard, they were completely disconnected from each other. I told you, I wanted a coke. And you brought me a Pepsi, really, you know, something different. So when I started to read about wheels work as a communication theorist, I was, I was first hesitant because I didn't want this to be academic. I didn't want I wanted this to be utterly practical. But he was one of the few academics I brought into the book, because what he said make perfect sense. So to our listeners, he came up with the few immutable truths about communication. And when I first read these, I started chuckling to myself, and I was laughing, but only because they were so damn true. I had no other reaction to it, but never quite thought about it that way. So the number one tenant from that debt he espouses, is, communication usually fails, except by accident. And when I first saw I was like, what is he crazy? Wait a minute. That's so true. People know how to talk. But that doesn't mean they know how to communicate, because there's so much disconnection between speakers and listeners. Oh, my God, I think he's right. He usually fails. And maybe if you're lucky enough to land, it's not because we were trained. We weren't. We were not trained to communicate, we were taught how to speak. And we were scolded that we didn't listen well enough. But who was teaching us to communicate? So that's the first one. The second one is perhaps the most important and a career killer. Any message that can be interpreted in any message that can be interpreted, will be done so to maximize damage? And I thought about that night illustrated something in the book called The Ratner effect, where this gentleman in London who built a jewelry Empire, the Empire came crumbling down in about four seconds, when he was asked a question and the answer was offensive. And he was all over the next papers, headlines, and the whole world worked against him to shut him down. His message was meant as a joke, and it was interpreted as an offense, something so quick. It maximized damage from the misinterpretation. The lessons, be mindful of your words. Words, love. Words have power, they also destroy and can be destructive. So be careful about what you say. And then third, this is the most interesting part because I think anyone who's married can relate to this, that there is always someone who knows better than you what you meant. And I say that because I've been married for many years happily, thankfully. but sometimes my wife will say, hey, Chuck, do me a favor, take out the garbage. And my response is I start washing the dishes. And she says, what are you doing? I said, I'm washing the dishes. I asked you to take out the garbage. Yeah, I know. But I know when you asked me to take out the garbage, that's code for washing the dishes. Now, some days it is. And some days it's not. But I thought I was so smart that I'd like to think that I know better than her what she meant. Now she's a hell of a lot smarter than me. But how often do we as human beings get into these scuffles where you say one? And Greg, and yeah, I know. That's what you said. But I don't think that's what you meant. So I'm just going to conclude you met something else. And then I act accordingly. We get into an argument. I said, Hey, you did b Yeah. No, that's what you meant. No, it's not. You're arguing? It's funny, but it is so true.

Greg Voisen
Well, just prior to this, I actually had an on a man on the with a John man, they wrote the book, The Go Giver, marriage. Oh, don't give him read. Yeah. And what's interesting is, you know, in a lot of cases, the ego says I want to be right. So the conflict occurs as a result of you just saying, I'm going to be right versus letting go. And, and being non attached to it. Because you get so emotionally engaged, when you're attached with somebody else says, because you're either offended or whatever. And but you're not really looking at it clearly. It's just that you're, you're attached to it. And in a relationship. They used to say, and I'm sure it's still said today, would you rather be in love? Or would you rather be right? And you know, that is a great statement? Which leads me to this next question, which is body language. Now, in a marriage, we use body language a lot in our spouses, our spouses can tell a lot, but we use it in businesses a lot as well. And leaders use it a lot. And many leaders have challenges with it. I mean, it's misinterpreted. Almost everyone's been told the body language is an important factor you state and then when communicating with someone else, or doing a speech, right. So I think people forget about the importance of body language and their communication. So there's, can you speak with the listeners about the five categories of nonverbal communications, and their importance in making effective speech and quote, unquote, I'll say, or, and or communicating one to one, because you pick up this body language one to one as well. And I want to make a quick comment. No. F, not every political figure, but political figures are in the limelight quite a bit. We had a prior administration where one gentleman was in the limelight a lot. And you could miss a Terp and misinterpreted much of what he said. But if you looked at his body language, you would actually see that he was expressing exactly what is meant by the scowl on the face, or the hand movements, or whatever it was that you wanted to do interpret. Very colorful, to say the least, right?

Chuck Garcia
Colorful is a mild way of putting data, but let's leave it at that. I'm with you. In fact, as I watched him, and people would call me and say, Chuck, what do you think? There's nothing much for me to say. In fact, I couldn't listen to him. But when I turned down the volume, I just watched his body language. So there's a lesson here. And I think this is my tenant here. I won't use a communication theorist. This is just Chuck's practicality, the body speaks before the mouth opens. Think about that. Not now, not even on a stage, think about you're meeting a friend for dinner. What happens right at the moment that you sit down, you don't say anything first, you may, but usually, your body precedes you before you speak. That's how it goes. So we as human beings, there are 19 body parts that actually communicate. And if you look at the hands, the eyes in the mouth, they are the cornerstones of body language. Even the hands there are 68 different gestures, believe it or not, so 19 body parts, there are 407 gestures. But the interesting part about body language, it's it can be broken down into five categories. Number one is being aggressive. So imagine, you know, when someone is aggressive, they don't even have to speak. If I were just as I'm doing right now I'm crossing my arms and I'm putting a scowl on that face. That is a very aggressive tone even without stating a word. Second, second one is what's called a defensive posture. Now you could also cross your arms or you could put your arms here, you've got your hands. So if your hands are on your hips, and because you're in disbelief, and you're leaning over, that's a power pose that may be driven by something defensive. The third category is nervous. And you know exactly when someone is nervous, they're twirling their hair, they're scratching their face, they're twiddling their thumbs, they're doing all kinds of things that I think most of us could conclude. And I do this in class, I put up pictures of different people and ask them, what do you see, I see nervousness, I see anxiety, how do you know that? From the hands, the mouth, the eyes, the next one is bored. Everybody knows when someone's looking around, they're not dialed into your eyes, they're just looking around and they're distracted, they're probably bored. So to our listeners, five, categories, four, are concluded as negative. And then the fifth one is interested, that's the good one. And we know that when you're speaking to someone, and it starts with the eyes, you can then bring in the hands or they make no hand eye contact, eye contact, or their hands open and exposed. If you put them into the prayer position, or into the steeple position, they're looking like they're engaged. So when we think about the body speaks before the mouth opens, be mindful of all of the body parts. And a lot of it, I'm going to give a plug to a wonderful book by a guy named Joe Navarro, who was the FBIs, he was a hostage negotiator he was he interviewed terrorists and all kinds of people. He wrote a book called The dictionary of body language. And it explains all of this. And he had to learn very early on how to interpret all the body signals. And that's where I got most of this.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's important, and it's something that's frequently forgotten. I think that just for you saying in this podcast, for those that are listening, still listening, that it was, it's great to be reminded of these things, right? So that you can apply them or at least know what's going on when somebody is doing that to you, or you're doing it to somebody else.

Chuck Garcia
So what what's great, one thing I will add, Greg, when I coach and teach people this, the interesting part is a couple of weeks later, they come back and they start telling me hey, Chuck, now when I'm in a restaurant, I begin to notice, I can't believe he she did this, they begin to now be conscious of what other people communicate in their body language. That's the best outcome you can expect. Because they're not only mindful of how they show up, they're now beginning to observe and see the world in different ways. That's the John Keating point in Dead Poets Society, we remind ourselves to see things differently. And if you just shut off the volume, and all the noise in the world, and you just stop talking, and look, you are now listening in ways you've never listened before. non verbally. It's a wonderful learning tool to just watch and observe.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it is. And you know, I kind of date myself with this. But I remember watching a speech by Leo, but Scalia, for those of you who I was in the audience, and he was telling his famous story about UCLA in the love class, and now the girl drove off the cliff. But nobody knew anybody in the room. They didn't, was like, Hey, does anyone know where she is? No. Do you know her name? Do you know her name? No, we don't know her name. But this story and the body language the way he told the story, I can to this day visualize and see it. That's how poignant it was. And the impact, I can still recall the story after 30 years of having heard that speech. That is somebody who knows how to deliver speech really well. Now, Chuck, in your chapter you titled minimize the distance teach, don't preach. You speak about the history of the lectures at Harvard. And it was really fascinating, by the way, I didn't. I didn't know the spiritual or I should say religious connection either. Yeah, no. And you know, you do see lectures up there. And your correlation here is, hey, you have Robin Williams. And then you have these guys at Harvard are standing up behind a podium, very stoic doing their speech like a preacher. Let's put it that way. Obviously, this is pretty old school now and outdated, but not maybe everywhere, but I would say hopefully it is. If you were to make a cut connection with the audience. If you were to make a connection, how do you recommend making a meaningful connection with the audience, be it in person, like, same there, or I use the term or over zoom, what you and I are doing right now. You know, because this, this brought to mind to me how many classes like you said, we sat in, and we heard a lecture, and we basically fell asleep or pretended we were paying attention, because we figured whatever we could blur, we could just read it out of the book after we finish the lecture hall. Yeah.

Chuck Garcia
You know, I think back to my educational model, and I'm trying to give credit to my best teachers. And what I know is they didn't do they didn't do what you're describing. So just for context, when Harvard was created in 1636, it was not created as a charter for a religious institution. However, practically speaking, it was there to teach Unitarian ministers. That's how that's how it started. Even though it was nonsectarian. They taught people to be preachers. And if you've ever gone to a Christian service, I grew up Catholic. They put many of the priests in this was beaming back then. But it didn't change much up on a pedestal. So they're way off their God. They're about 150 feet, seemingly from the congregation. So there's a great deal of distance. So there's a separation between the priests that knows all and that is closer to God. And the congregants who is now looking down, think about any conversation you've ever had with somebody, physically, when they're looking down at you think about that makes you feel you make you feel like you're being condescended to, and you're being lectured at. Nobody wants to feel that way. But since it was working at Harvard, when other institutions said, Hey, let's teach biology, how are we going to teach it? Well, if you're working at Harvard, look at the way that they're teaching Presbyterian, Unitarian ministers will just do the same thing. And then, at Dartmouth, they started teaching English and everything else in the modern day lecture was born. Flash forward to the TED talk, I trained a lot of people to step on this TED stage. What do you notice on a TED stage? No pedestal, no barriers, no podiums, it's just the individual. And often when I'm teaching them on the TED stage, I bring them right to the lip of the stage. The foundation and fundamental tenet here is the minimization of distance. try as best you can, if you want to connect with people to create an intimate atmosphere. Now, I'm not taking anything away from people who go to church and in their pursuit of God, that's awesome. And I respect that. But when we get out of there, imagine if the TED talks were up on a pedestal, 150 feet away from the audience, and you start preaching, the idea of the TED talk was just to have a discussion with your audience, and to do that in a very intimate way. So my recommendation, when you go to a restaurant, do not sit face to face that looks like a face off what I do to anybody that knows me, if there's only two of us in a restaurant, I will always call the restaurant in advance. And I will ask them to juxtapose my chair to the side not to look at each other, but I am right next to them. So I am at an angle at a right angle. Why do I do that? Because the people in my life I care about I want intimacy at that lunch. And I don't mean that in any kind of sexual way. It's just my, my, my closest friends, I owe that that be here today be somewhere else tomorrow. I minimize the distance so that when we're speaking, we're close to each other. We are within a touching point. Because sometimes if somebody's giving me bad news, I can reach over and I can touch their hand. I show them the intimacy that comes with we feel first, we think second, there's just too much distance in the world. Greg, in this chapter was all meant to minimize it to make people feel that they are intimate with the people that are around them. Greg, you've muted, Greg.

Greg Voisen
Yep, I did. But we'll cut that out. So yeah. And then I say it was great advice. And I think people should do that more often to have that intimacy, to have that deeper connection, whether they turn their chair or not. I think there's a lot of things you can do to make that connection. But I liked your idea there. You know, and I, I go back to listening to Norman Vincent Peale. And I don't think and I'm not I'm going to kind of skip this question, but I'm going to go to the last question so we can wrap this up. But it was the power of pauses. I am Nobody I knew nobody like Robert Schuller or Norman Vincent Peale. Both coming from that. Hold on a second. Yeah. All right. I knew nobody who came from the spiritual community that did better posits than Robert Schuller and Norman Vincent Peale. And I used to listen to Norman Vincent Peale says I would drive from account to account my car, and my date myself with cassette tapes, and the cassette tapes would play. And I would listen to how he would have a pregnant pause for such a long period of time to get you to think about something. And I just want to say to people, because Chuck's the communication expert here, there's something about you don't have to fill this, this void the space, you know, you feel like you need to, because I gotta have say something. But the reality is pauses, and even pregnant pauses work really well, to get the audience engaged with you. Or even when you're speaking with a friend ever coffee, there's no reason to just fill the air with nonsense. Wait for that person to respond. I think that's what you're getting with, with the whole pause thing. But Chuck, if you were to leave the listeners with three takeaways each, for each and I underline for becoming a better leader, because the books on leadership as much as it's on communication, and for improving their communication skills, what would you advise them to do or action to

Chuck Garcia
take? There are many, but I've liked the rule of three because that was another chapter. So I appreciate your prompting on three. And what I what I will leave our listeners with. And I'm going to provide a couple quotations from people that were a lot smarter than me. And one of them was an 11th century poet named Rumi, a philosopher. And he said, and I, this is in my head often. And this is a bit introspective and potentially abstract. But think about this yesterday, I was clever. And I wanted to change the world. To today, I am wise. So I am changing myself. That's my first piece of advice. I see a great deal of idealism in the world, especially my Columbia students that want to come in a fresh water and go to space. And it's all great. But many of the people that come to me have failed in their ventures and what they failed to change was themselves, they get frustrated, when things around them don't change, they don't get the operating results they expected. And what I asked them, what are you doing to change yourself. And it's usually rooted in learning to communicate and to get people behind your dream. And in order to do that, you're not going to do it by features and functions, you're going to do it by creating a platform and a sense of emotion that will drive people closer to your cause. The second thing that I would leave them with, and this is part of what I've learned over the years about very uncaring people. And it was Teddy Roosevelt who said, people don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care. Now, that does sound a bit trite. But I think it's important in this world of self-absorption, that we constantly remind ourselves, stop trying to tell them how brilliant you are that you know more than them to show him you care. And it gets back to the law of reciprocity. Show people you give a damn about them, forget everything else, and they're gonna give a damn about you back in spades. And as leadership lesson, I cannot think of something more powerful than that. Get out of your own head and go help somebody. And it's amazing what comes back to you.

Greg Voisen
And then realize you have one more right?

Chuck Garcia
I do. And it's the great Winston Churchill. He was my hero. I look at Mandela and Churchill, as the people I look up to the most who were in those kinds of positions. And what Winston Churchill says, we make a living by what we get. We make a life by what we give. Now. That is a number one. Yeah, making a living all good. And when I went to Wall Street, I thought that's what it was all about. And what I came to learn, oh my god, we make a life by what we give. Be kind and generous. Be tough. Stand your ground, do not let somebody push you around. But never under any circumstances should we ever exclude how important it is the power of giving, whether it's the Go Giver, whether you're on Wall Street, it doesn't matter what I have come to distill in these leadership lessons. The best leaders are the ones who are most passionate about giving, and that's what I'm leaving. And while you're at it The more you can improve your communication and emotional intelligence skills, forget the cramming the examining and the regurgitating, let's redefine what it means to be smart, look at the world in different ways, and help people to achieve their dreams, then it will bounce back to you. And this law of reciprocity where all these people will help you achieve yours.

Greg Voisen
Chuck, wonderful podcast. And I think for my listeners, not only a climb to the top, the book, but he has a course. And you can go to the website, and under courses, you can click the blue button. And it was because there was a request, Chuck told me that people wanted to have more information here. So you'll, you'll see some courses that Chuck has created. And I encourage you to go out and get the book off of Amazon, we'll put the link, we'll put a link to his website, which is really easy, Chuck garcia.com, not very difficult for you to get to. And there, do check out his courses. highly engaging interview, thank you, Chuck, I would add to that appreciate your enthusiasm for this topic and appreciate your compassion. As a giver, I can I see that I feel it, I sense it. And it's always appreciated by not only me, because thank you for your gift to our nonprofit as well as really to everyone that you come in contact with whether or not there's reciprocity or not. I think when you give just to give, versus with no expectation and return, those are the people that are going to benefit the most right. And I know you're one of those kinds of souls that's walking the planet. So I appreciate you appreciate the book. Appreciate the podcast that you're doing. And the course that you've got, go up and visit Chuck's website, just cruise it real quick look for the things that you want, pull them away, get in touch with Chuck. He also does coaching as well, executive coaching. So it'd be a great place. And thanks so much, Chuck for everything today.

Chuck Garcia
Well, Greg, let me say just state again, your level of preparation was superb among as good as I've ever seen your kindness and generosity and what you're doing in the service of others to be able to bring the funding for this podcast to someone else in need of our help. That doesn't get any better than that. So I am grateful to you for the opportunity to be able to share some of these lessons here and to our audience as well. And thank you for having me. I am blessed to have participated and contributed to your podcast.

Greg Voisen
You said put your hands together namaste my friend.

Chuck Garcia
The divine in you up to our listeners. Greg, thank you so much.

Greg Voisen
With all the Sherpas you've climbed with I'm sure you've seen plenty and

Chuck Garcia
I love them for that they keep us calm and they keep us climbing. So it's my climb on everybody. All right,

Greg Voisen
a climb to the top with Chuck mountaineer. Author podcaster and educator at Columbia University blessings, my friend.

Chuck Garcia
Thank you Greg right back at you.