Podcast 921: Trust and Inspire: How Truly Great Leaders Unleash Greatness in Others with Stephen M.R. Covey

It is an honor to interview Stephen M. R. Covey, New York Times and #1 Wall Street Journal bestselling author for his book The SPEED of Trust—The One Thing That Changes Everything. He has another amazing book that we are discussing on this podcast – Trust & Inspire: How Truly Great Leaders Unleash Greatness in Others.

Stephen is the former CEO of Covey Leadership Center, which, under his stewardship, became the largest leadership development company in the world. Now, he is a co-founder of CoveyLink, a consulting practice, which focuses on enabling leaders and organizations to increase and leverage trust to achieve superior performance.

Trust & Inspire is deemed “the defining leadership book in the 21st century” as it discuss the leadership crisis in our world today as well as offers a simple yet bold solution. Trust and Inspire is believed the solution to the future of work: where a dispersed workforce will be the norm, necessitating trust and collaboration across time zones, cultures, personalities, generations, and technology.

If you want to know more about Stephen and his works, click here to visit his website. Here’s a link also on where you can pre-order the book.

I hope you enjoyed and learn from this very engaging interview with Stephen M. R. Covey. Thank you for listening!

THE BOOK

From the bestselling author of The Speed of Trust, a revolutionary new way to lead, deemed “the defining leadership book in the 21st century” (Admiral William McRaven, author of Make Your Bed) that “every parent, teacher, and leader needs” (Esther Wojcicki, author of How to Raise Successful People).

We have a leadership crisis today, where even though our world has changed drastically, our leadership style has not. Most organizations, teams, schools, and families today still operate from a model of “command and control,” focusing on hierarchies and compliance from people. But because of the changing nature of the world, the workforce, work itself, and the choices we have for where and how to work and live, this way of leading is drastically outdated.

THE AUTHOR

Stephen M.R. Covey has made it his life’s work to understand trust in leadership and organizations. In his newest and most transformative book, Trust and Inspire, he offers a simple yet bold solution: to shift from this “command and control” model to a leadership style of “trust and inspire.” People don’t want to be managed; they want to be led. Trust and Inspire is a new way of leading that starts with the belief that people are creative, collaborative, and full of potential. People with this kind of leader are inspired to become the best version of themselves and to produce their best work. Trust and Inspire is the solution to the future of work: where a dispersed workforce will be the norm, necessitating trust and collaboration across time zones, cultures, personalities, generations, and technology.

Trust and Inspire calls for a radical shift in the way we lead in the 21st century, and Covey shows us how.

 


You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen and host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from the shadows of the Rocky Mountains. Now, where is that Stephen?

Stephen M.R. Covey
Near the Sundance ski resort?

Greg Voisen
Oh, okay. Okay, I saw it on your bio it said the shadow of the Rocky Mountains. So we're going to be speaking to Stephen Mr. Covey about his book called trust and inspire how truly great leaders unleash greatness and others. Gosh, we could talk about Vladimir Lo. From Ukraine all day long, because the guy is a fantastic leader. And then we could talk about the other side of the coin. Mr. Putin, not such a great leader, but in all respects to everybody. I think this is for business people who are want to move from command and control to trust and inspire. And I want to let people know just a tad Stephen, Mr. Is co founder and CEO of company link and the Franklin Global Trust practice. He's the author of The New York Times best selling book, The Speed of Trust, which I read great book, a sought after in compelling keynote, author, advisor trust, leadership, ethics, culture and collaboration. He speaks to audiences around the world, a Harvard MBA. He's a former CEO of Covey Leadership Center, which is under the, under his stewardship became the largest leadership development company in the world. And as he said, he's in the shadows of the, the Rockies there with his wife and children. So look, I know you start this book off with an introduction, you tell a great story about Death Valley and use an analogy contributed by Sir Kenneth Robinson, which is been on TEDx talks and viewed millions of times that maybe it should be called dormant Valley. Can you tell the story and the correlation between the story and the greatness that really lies within all of us? And really all leaders? I would say, you know, because that's who we're addressing today is, how are you going to become a better leader?

Stephen M.R. Covey
Absolutely, absolutely. So Death Valley, is one of the hottest places on Earth, if not the hottest. And it's also one of the driest places, because it's so hot and dry, nothing grows there. And so that's why they call it Death Valley, because there's no growth of anything. But interestingly, for no apparent reason, in the winter of 2004, six inches of rain came down in just a very short period in a matter of days. And sometimes they would go, they went 40 months, one time, with only a half an inch of rain. So this is phenomenal. Six inches of rain came down. And sure enough, just a few months later, and that spring, suddenly, wildflowers blossomed, and carpeted the entire Death Valley. And, and the it came up and people didn't know that that was there, that was possible. And that's where the late Sir Kenneth Robinson said, maybe we shouldn't call it Death Valley, but dormant Valley because the seeds were there all along, they just needed the right conditions, for the seeds to flourish to blossom. I make the point, in a very real sense, people are like that. The life is in the seed, the life is in the person, the power is in the person, they just need the right conditions. For them to also have a chance to grow, to develop to blossom to unleash their capabilities, their potential, their greatness. And so if you the idea for leadership is to see yourself as a gardener, then go out as a mechanic. Regarding or you're trying to cultivate, you're trying to create the conditions for the seed to flourish, but the power is in the seed, the life is in the seed, meaning the life the power is in the person and the people. And your job as a leader is to cultivate and unleash that capability that power. Like what happened at Death Valley Windows range game.

Greg Voisen
It was a great way to open the book. And I love the fact that, you know, we're really talking about a soul. You know, because we've inside everyone is the soul. But everybody has an ego as well. And it's this constant battle command and control ego versus this love and compassion side, which is the soul side which we really need to move business to. And you state that trust and inspire is a new way to lead. Its goal is to unleash people's talent potential to truly empower them and inspire them rather than try to contain and control them. It's about trusting people to do the right thing and inspiring them to make meaningful contributions. How do you help lead realize that this paradigm needs to occur to reduce turnover, increase innovation, and productivity and build a culture that is aligned with the mission of the organization. So big question I get, there's a lot wrapped up in that. But if anyone can answer it, you can.

Stephen M.R. Covey
Alright, Greg, I'll try. I would say this, just look at how our world has changed, really in front of our eyes, but also over the last decade plus time where everything is changed through technology. And through how the workforce itself has changed workplaces change, coming out of COVID, work from home work from anywhere, hybrid work, intentionally flexible work, and flexible work, remote work. And people have choices and options, like they didn't have before. And so if we continue to kind of try to manage people like we have in the past, that kind of flows out of the old, you know, industrial age paradigm of command, control it, but we become better at it a more enlightened command and control, I like to say, the problem with that is that we're not going to be able to create the kind of high trust culture that inspires people today, so that they want to be part of your team, your organization, and they want to stay, and that you'll bring out you'll win the war for talent, and attract the best people, and you'll bring out the best in people. And you can't do that. With the old model of command and control that doesn't inspire anyone, you might be able to force things to happen. And you know, muscle it out, grind it out. But people don't volunteer, they don't choose it. And they end and today, when they have so many choices, they'll leave and go somewhere else, where they feel trusted, where they feel inspired. So we'll never win the war for talent. If we stay with the old style of leadership, we've got to shift to a new style, I'm calling it trust and inspire versus command control. And the same thing. So that's the first is I call that the first epic imperative is that we've got a win in the workplace by building and creating a high trust culture that inspires people.

Greg Voisen
Well, you have three epic imperatives that we'll get to yes. But you know, you remind me as you're speaking, I just got a book in here from shanaar. Patagonia guy and it says, Let my people go surfing. That's the title of the book. I love it. Now, the interesting thing is you find a lot of these companies, Stephen, that are embracing trust and inspire are also bracing high levels of autonomy. And our are embracing allowing people to be much more creative. Thus go surf because it is there also have a mission and a cause, which is driving him in his is the environment. It's like, you know, he puts an ad on the website, don't buy this jacket, right? It's like, well buy sell jackets, well don't buy it if you already have a jacket, and you're going to pollute the environment because we have to cut material and do things, right. I love companies like that. And there are more and more that we're seeing, you know, you mentioned that you shared the stage with your late father so many times, and that he would always ask two questions of the audience. And this is an important one, in which the hands raised 100% of the time agreeing with the questions. Tell the audience what your father asked, and why still today, we're struggling with the command and control mindset within these organizations, because I love those two questions. And honest to goodness, the hands went up 100% of the time. It was your dad was great at drawing people in but that was good. He was also good at pauses.

Stephen M.R. Covey
Really, he really was. And so these were seminars that we were presenting all around the world may have 1000 people in the room. And so he would say he asked this question, how many of you believe that the vast majority of the workforce at your organization possess far more talent, creativity, ingenuity, intelligence and ability than their current jobs require? Or even allow them can contribute? How many have more potential than you can contribute? Every hand would go up? And then he's he pause. And then he asked a follow on question. And how many of you believe that the vast majority of your workforce and organization are under immense and growing pressure to produce more with less and again, almost every hand would go up on that one too. So Think about that, then you just pause and have people think about this, that people have far more to give for more creativity, talent, intelligence to give them they're, then they're allowed or required or even allowed to give. And yet, everyone is feeling the pressure to do more with less. And yet they have always catered, but they're not able to give. And it's kind of like, what's wrong with us? Why do we why do we have this kind of gap, this is a leadership matter. We've got to be able to, as leaders, enable our people to give what they're capable of giving, in order to produce, the more with laughter move to higher levels of performance. And it's almost ironic that we're under pressure to do more with less, and yet, we're not tapping into what people are capable of giving. That is a leadership issue. And we've got to, we've got to lead in a way that enables people to give what they're capable to unleash their capabilities and their talent and their potential to develop it, and unleash it for the service of our mission. And that was kind of the big aha, that everyone at one level would already kind of know. And yet you asked the question. And yet what, why, when that's so obvious, at one level, why do we still operate with this command and control? And I think it's because we're just so immersed in it. Yeah, part of our culture for years, we're scripted in it, we are trained in it, we're good at it. And it's what we know, it's what we've done is the models we've seen. And so it's just easy to kind of perpetuate and continue that and become better at it. And more enlightened at it, or sophisticated, you know, bring good elements to it. But our paradigm of how we view people how we view leadership still hasn't shifted enough. And we're still too much into controlling and containing people and their potential instead of truly developing and unleashing it, which is a trust and inspire paradigm. So I think it's because we're so immersed in the old model. It's in our language, our systems and our structures, is in our paradigms and old paradigms can live on indefinitely, even when a new paradigm has been presented. You know, like the idea of bloodletting, which lived on Twitter and 50 years passed, passed it's known usefulness, but still lived on and command control with like modern day bloodletting. It still lives on even though we know it doesn't really work anymore. Well, I

Greg Voisen
noticed. I noticed you quoted in the book. At one point, it was a quote, Margaret Wheatley. And you know what's interesting when you look at memes, and you look at these things, and you look at what we have a grasp on to hang on to. And it's the fear of uncertainty to change, right. So in other words, you will look at an ecosystem, it's changing all the time. The reality is, is that these cultures have to know how to embrace change, and be willing and more than any now, because of the speed of technology, the way things have advanced to do that. And, you know, you quoted Andrea Merkel, the question is not whether we're able to change but whether we are changing fast enough. What are the five emerging forces that cannot be ignored, and that are impacting our work, our and our lives in an unprecedented way? You started on them a few minutes ago. So now we got one of them out now informed more.

Stephen M.R. Covey
I jumped the gun. Okay. It's okay. It's fine. It's because the implications of these forces are so significant. But the first I mentioned, which is the nature of the world itself has changed through technology. The pace of change the amount of change the type of change, disruptive technologies changes everything, you know, the VUCA world volatility, uncertainty, complexity, ambiguity, so the world has changed. Second, the nature of work itself has changed. Today, work is far more knowledge based. It's far more service oriented. It's far more collaborative, more interdependent, or interactive with people versus kind of the old industrial age work. We still have industrial age work that we do. But even then it's more infused with knowledge. And insight is the age of collaboration. And not just the old industrial age alone. So work itself is changing. Or more collaborative.

Greg Voisen
Stephen, just a quick m&m, throw something in here. Sorry to interrupt. No, I'm happy you know, you we have words that define and words are so powerful. And I think one of the words this is my own commentary for the podcast listeners. The word work is outdated. It needs to be replaced with collaboration, or connection, or whatever. Because now what's happening is we are yes. People say, Well, you wake up and go to work. I'd rather say that I wake up and go collaborate with my team. You know, what are you doing today? I'm collaborating, right? So I only say that these words are so strong, that they've been so embedded over so long. You know, we still use the word workplace, we, you know, we use these things. And I'm telling you from my pick and brain, it just seems like we're identifying words that are so strongly attached to old patterns, that it's fixed.

Stephen M.R. Covey
That's fascinating, Greg, because in a sense, you're saying work comes from the Command or Control paradigm of the industrial age? It does. And, and, and that's what I'm trying to describe the shift is the nature of the work itself has changed to become a collaboration. Yeah. And a partnering and interaction.

Greg Voisen
And sorry for interrupting. No, no, I love those five. Yeah. But actually,

Stephen M.R. Covey
me it actually kind of makes the point I'm trying to make Yeah, the work has shifted towards collaboration. Yes. Interaction, interdependence. Yes. Yeah. So now I'm going to go back and use the word work, because okay, we're also setting this but the nature of the work place has changed, especially in the last couple years, coming out of this pandemic, where suddenly you have people that are able to, to collaborate from home. And to and to do remote worker, or hybrid work or on site or combinations, intentionally flexible, working collaboration that can go on in new and different ways that we didn't have before. So, it we had some before, but it's just dramatically changed. Right? As the third force, the fourth force of the nature of the work force itself has changed. It's more diverse than ever before, there's as many as five generations at work with completely different expectations of what leadership looks like, and what collaboration and contribution looks like that they want to make, especially with millennials, and Gen Z, you can't be thinking like we used to, in the, you know, with the baby boomers and traditionalists. And command or control, they don't respond to that. Right. And finally, the fifth is the nature of choice has changed. And by that, I mean, there's we've gone from what we might call multiple choice, to infinite choice. There's just so many options and possibilities that people have today, that it's just been an explosion, because of all these other forces and technology in the workplace, in the workplace being worked from anywhere work from home. So suddenly, I can maybe get a job with a company and not live where that company is based, because they're okay that I'm working remotely. And, or what have you, I have options and choice I didn't have before. And the point on that is that suddenly, if people have choices, unprecedented choices, then it puts a greater premium. Now on wanting people to choose to work and collaborate with you, with your team with your organization. And because if they don't like it, they can quickly and easily find another place where they can go into the gig economy, and other options that they just didn't have before. So those are the five emerging forces have changed that we can ignore, but they won't ignore as they're happening with or without our, well, they're

Greg Voisen
here today. They're here to stay. And I'd say you know, the paradigm shift, or the subconscious is so strong. It used to be sad, and it still should be said, I never worked a day in my life because I loved what I did. You know, it was it was so we've blurred the lines around work, because we're still calling it work. But why even refer to it as work? If what you're doing you love doing and you've created that environment at Patagonia or wherever it might be that people like to come to Franklin Covey. The fact is, is that if you can get people to love and have their own purpose and be aligned with your purpose, they really never work a day in their life. So that and to me, when you have that kind of impetus, that kind of drive, you can move mountains, you can help bring the rain on that makes the flowers in the field bloom and everybody come up. And you mentioned that there's two epic imperatives to achieve. And if we cannot deliver on these two epic imperatives, we won't be able to sustain this success in our world. What are the to epic imperatives. And can you explain how Microsoft's CEO Nadella is a great example of trust and inspire leader because you cited him in the book. Interestingly, his two predecessors back Bill Gates is building a house literally like six miles from here. And it's like big news, because he bought this, this huge $43 million house. And it was meant it was immaculate, and he ripped it down. And the people are, like, all Why did you rip it down? You're gonna build a brand new house again. But Microsoft is one of the companies that has evolved and has taken some pretty big shots over time. Right? You really look at it. And you look at Balmer and, and Bill Gates and all the leaders, but you look at this leader, and he's different. He really is different. And I'm glad you profiled him, because his book is wonderful. And his wonderful man. Yes, yes. No, no, he's Indian, by the way, which the Eastern philosophy has come over with him and embedded into the

Stephen M.R. Covey
company. Yeah, he's a he's really such an Adela. Really a remarkable leader. Yeah. And has revitalized Microsoft through his leadership style. Yeah. Literally, through a style to unleash the capabilities, the talents, the potential. Before he had been there, it was seen as it was almost cutthroat internal competition with each other. A cartoonist drew a cartoon of Microsoft, with people on the same team, or in the same company facing each other, with guns pointed at each other. Yeah, like, the only way to get ahead is to, you know, take someone else out type of thing, just cutthroat internal competition, complete transcendence of that. Mm hmm. into a culture of collaboration. And once you begin to collaborate, they can begin to innovate. And then you start to attract and retain the best people. And then you collaborate, innovate, and that becomes a virtuous upward spiral. So he's done it and he's revitalized the organization. And you see it in their stock price, you see it in their culture, and everything else. And so what he's done is he's won in those two epic imperatives. So I jumped the gun earlier. The first one is the idea that we need to build a high trust culture that inspires. So your whole example, Greg, of, if you go to work, and you love what you're doing, you're not working. It's because you're inspired, you have a sense of purpose, a meaning and contribution that inspires you, versus having to be just constantly motivated with more extrinsic rewards, carrot and stick, see carrot and stick, external motivation is command and control. Trust inspires internal motivation, it's intrinsic is inside of people, it's tapping into what's inside of them, to inspire means to breathe life into, versus set the life from. So you're breathing life into people into, into, into collaboration into the work that you're doing. So that people are contributing, and they feel inspired by it. When that happens, they want to be part of the team, they want to stay, they want to contribute their best. So you're not only attract and keep the best people, you bring out the best in people. And that's what a high trust culture that inspires deaths. That's the first imperative if you don't have that, then what will happen is people will leave, they'll go find another place where they feel trusted, and inspired. And you want to attract the best people and won't keep them nor will you bring out the best in people. So that's the first imperative. And I call that in summary when in the workplace through a high trust culture that inspires

Greg Voisen
Well, he's the Microsoft CEO is an example beyond belief of this, you know, and you speak about this because you know, I've said this many times on the show for my listeners who listen to me all the time Thank you. But ego is edging God out. Okay, he geo edging God out. i It's probably been heard they've heard it before. And the point is, is that when you are coming from trust, and inspiration, you basically have coming from Soul and from God. I'm not I don't have a fear in saying this. My listeners know who I am. I have a degree in spiritual psychology. So the reality is, is that it is about kind of this outside spiritual world that you can kind of infuse with inside the company. And you have a great chart in the book that compares and contrasts the two styles of leadership command and control versus trust Inspire. Can you tell our listeners the difference and how a leader can shift the mindset to become a leader that utilizes trust in and inspire behaviors? What I love about the book, honestly People just got the book and went to the pages that show the Compare and contrast. All you really need to do is reprint those and put them on the wall. Because the reality is you're shooting from moving from the one on the left to the one on the right. And it's very simple. I could I'll put a chart when we put this up, I'll actually put one of your pages up there, there's several in there. So tell us a little bit about, you know, you draw a line down the middle. It's like the old Ben Franklin, close it there's a tee and the right side is over here and the left side is over here. We want to move you to the right side. What are some of those things that make up the behaviors?

Stephen M.R. Covey
Yeah, yeah. So on the left hand side, the command control side, you know, you manage people and things, but on the trust and inspire the right hand side, trust and inspire, you manage people, and your lead, thinks the danger comes when we start to manage people, as if they were things that too often happens with a command and control mindset. We need good management of things and processes and systems, we need great leadership of people. And the danger comes when we conflate the two. On the left hand side command control, you'll get compliance, you know, it's a good thing, you follow the rules. But trust and aspire will elicit commitment, that's about doing the right thing that includes compliance, but so much more. On Command Control, it's far more on efficiency, trust and inspire is on effectiveness. efficient with things be effective with people, command control is good for status quo and incremental improvement. But trust and inspire is vital for change and innovation. So we're agile and adaptive responsive. Command Control is kind of the machinist mindset. I'm a machinist that's mechanistic trust and inspires that gardener mindset. It's organic, and creating conditions for the people to blossom to flourish. Command Control. By definition, it's kind of about control. And containing people, controlling people is in the word right. And then control trust and inspire is about unleashing, and releasing people's capabilities and potential and talent. That gap that my father identified that people have so much more to give, they're not able to give command and control is very transactional trust and inspire, is transformational. But it does the relationships and teams and cultures is transformative, versus just doing something with you know, for someone it's doing something with someone. And also, command control is very much about motivation, like I said earlier is extrinsic carrot and stick. Trust and inspire is about inspiration. It's inside of people, our job is to ignite the fire within to breathe life into that and that because that can burn on forever. And when people feel this passion, and when they feel that commitment. And when they feel the purpose, the meaning the contribution, what it's all about. And I just make this point to operate today in our world today, with a style of leadership of command and control. That is the equivalent of playing tennis with a golf club.

Greg Voisen
It's a good way to

Stephen M.R. Covey
think about it, you know, the tool you're using, the style of leadership you're employing is not relevant to the game being played. We need a tennis racket to play tennis. And that's trust and inspire so that we can so that we can attract the best people and bring out the best in people and build that high trust culture that inspires and you can't command and control your way to a great culture or to inspiration. And then the other imperative. The second one is to be able to collaborate and innovate. So we can stay relevant in a changing world.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, one of the first gentlemen CEOs that used to practice some of this, I don't say in all of it. Herb Kelleher, at Southwest Airlines. He used to say love your people. Now you have a lot of CEOs that listen to this show because we get most of our listeners off of LinkedIn. And that is the audience that listens their CEOs or CFOs their HR directors, their people, but there's when you speak like this, you also draw an emotion up inside of people around fear because they're so attached to this before. Now. I love Herb Kelleher, all the movies that I used to play with Herb walking around with m&ms given them people at his desk and just loving people. If you believe that the distinction between motivation and inspiration needs to be defined speak with our listeners about this extrinsic motivator versus the internal inherent drive dri V. That is within people or intrinsic motivators. and why it's so important to bring out the intrinsic drivers. You cited Daniel Pink's book or? Yeah, yeah, excited that David pink was Daniel Pink. Yeah, Daniel Pink. Why did I? I don't know. I did. But my point is, is all the psychology around this that's been studied over the years around motivation for intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation as the driver versus, you know, inspiration, lots of discussion. What would you do, Stephen, to actually help people buy in and get people away from the fear that if they let go, because, you know, it's about letting go, you and I are sitting here right now, if you can't let go of that old model, you're never going to be able to move to this model and letting go is one of the toughest things that people have to do?

Stephen M.R. Covey
It absolutely is. Here's a couple of thoughts. The first is ask yourself why, why is inspiration better than motivation? today? And you'll be a couple reasons why. One is that the inspiration can literally live on for sometimes even years when someone feels a spire lit inside, whereas motivation, you got to constantly Furbish it with more external stimuli, more carrots, more sticks constantly. There's motivation work. Sure, it motivates people to want to get more rewards. But you got to keep, you know, feeding the beast, if you will, and keep providing food for the hungry bear. Whereas inspiration can live on, it's just so much to tap into people's innate desire for purpose for meaningful contribution. Another key reason that's important is how you see people. Do you as a leader? Do you see people as just primarily economic beans, you know, with a body? Or do you see people as whole people, a body, a heart, a mind, spirit are saw. And you know, that there is a whole person that brings their whole self to work. And so if you just see people as economic beings, then it's all about saying, hey, look, I just have to motivate through carrot and stick and allow for more rewards more money, motivation will do it, because they're, you know, they're financial creatures or economic beats. But if a person's a whole person, yes, they have a body, and the money does matter. But they also have a heart. So a desire for connection, a desire for love, for caring, and for connecting with people and being part of something belonging, they also have a mind, and a desire to utilize that mind, and to develop talents and to grow, and to get better and improve and to contribute what they're growing with. And they also have a spirit, or a soul, the whole idea of a desire for purpose, a desire for meaning for contribution for making a difference for mattering. What matters to people is mattering. And so when you recognize they're not just people are not just economic beams, they're whole people, then that helps you really say that's why inspiration is better than mere motivation. Motivation is not inherently bad, it's just incomplete. Inspiration is far more complete, because then you'll tap into the heart, the mind the spirit, as well as the body, you come by people's hands and backs. But they volunteer their hearts and minds. And they do it when they feel inspired. So that's, that's the first is the paradigm of how you view people. But then if you could also add to it, the idea that inspired people also have another gear in them. They perform better than even engaged people. And I love being engaged. I love engagement. So I'm not going to bad mouth engagement, engagement matters. engaging our people is very important. And there's another frontier of engagement, another level another gear, we can go to, which is inspiration and inspired employees out perform even fully engaged employees by up to 56% in this extra gear that they have, and so, so you'll get better results. So the reason I highlighted this is how you do people matters. If you see him as hope people can you say that leads me towards inspiration. If I also view them as, as having greater performance. If I can inspire right, then I say maybe it's worth the risk. Maybe it's worth trying to let go. And I'll add one last piece to it. So if I believe that I can get better results and have happier people. By doing this, then I'm saying okay, I just got I want to I need to learn how to let go but I don't want to I don't want to lose control. So my advice would be focused heavily on creating the agreement upfront with the person that you create together, where you clarify expectations, and you mutually agreed to a process of accountability to those expectations. And when you do that up front with a person, then you're able to truly trust them, and to empower them. Because why? Because you have a clear agreement of what you're trusting them on, with expectations. And with built in accountability, so that, in a sense, you don't lose control, there's control, it's just self control, it's coming from the person against the agreement you've set up, and they can judge themselves, they can evaluate themselves against the agreement that you helped set up, which includes getting these results. And, and, and being accountable in these ways that we've agreed to. And suddenly, you change the paradigm from I'm losing control to know I'm shifting the locus of control to the people, but the control is still there. And maybe it's even stronger than before.

Greg Voisen
I like the part you added around the agreement and the accountability, because that will make the CEO or HR director feel a lot more comfortable in the circumstances of letting go. So absolute kudos in that because that's important. Now, you state that we've not moved out of the Industrial Age style of management, because we haven't yet shifted our paradigm we've been talking about that. We can it continue to have an inaccurate map a distorted view of people in leadership, we don't have complete and fundamental beliefs. How do you recommend to leaders to change the paradigm and adopt the mindset of trust and inspire leadership? And you mentioned that your father reminded you that the most significant breakthroughs really are break whiffs that is a break with a traditional way of thinking. And I think what your father said, again, kudos to both of you break with is the key here. And I'd love to have you just comment on that for a couple of minutes.

Stephen M.R. Covey
Yeah, we're trying to break with the traditional management approach to managing people. The old command and control approach that we become better at more advanced and more sophisticated, more enlightened, but it's still more of a traditional of I manage people. Now you manage things, you lead people. And so that's the break with we need to break with command control, style management, and move toward a trust, inspire leadership. And it's not just incremental, it's really a sea change. It is a big shift. But it starts with your paradigm of how you see people and how you view leadership because if you have that paradigm is like a map, right? A mental map of the reality of the territory, but the map is not the territory, you could have a bad map of the territory and, and think that, because that's your map, think that that's what people are like, but if you see people as not capable, not having a growth mindset, not being able to have greatness inside of them. If that's how you view people, then naturally, you're going to be trying to control them and contain them and limit them. As opposed to if you see people as having greatness inside of them, then your paradigm becomes with they have greatness and I've got to tap into that. I'd love to see it, communicate it up and then leash it. So that's an example of a mindset, a paradigm of how you view people also, if you view people as economic beings versus whole people, you would act differently. If as economic then I going to motivate but if there's a whole person I want to inspire.

Greg Voisen
I like the break with I like the whole concept of breaking with because the break through to break with that, in itself is a huge paradigm. May you state that the overarching framework of the book consists of three stewardship’s that can work together and build off each other. Can you speak about the three stewardship’s of a trust and inspire leader?

Stephen M.R. Covey
Absolutely. And first, let me say this, that one of the beliefs is that leadership is stewardship, itself. It's not just position. It's not just rights, its responsibilities. It's a stewardship. So if that's the case, then these are three stewardship apps that come with being a leader and be with being a trusted inspire leader. I'll just state them up front quickly, and I'll just describe each in greater detail. First, you model. Second, you trust. And third, you inspire. So modeling, that's who we are, as our credibility, that's our moral authority that we're a model and we go first. So we model humility and courage. Together, we model authenticity and vulnerability. We model empathy and performance. Those are some high leverage behavioral virtues that are vital to be modeled today, we model the behavior that we're seeking others to have. When we model the values that we ascribe to modeling goes first, that's who we are. Trusting is the second stewardship. And here's the point I'll make on this, Greg, you could have two trustworthy people working together. And yet no trust between them, even though they're both trustworthy, if neither person is willing to extend trust to the other. So if we're going to have trust, build a high trust culture, we not only have to be trustworthy, we also have to be trusting and be willing to extend trust to people, to our team, to our leaders. And again, this is where there's a lot of fear, people are afraid to let go, that's where if you can build the agreement with expectations and accountability, around the trust being given, you can go to a whole new level, and you can become far more trusting than you might have thought was a met, it was possible. And when you do that, people will perform better. And they'll rise to the occasion. And they'll develop more capabilities, and they'll reciprocate and give the trust back to you. So not only do you get the job done, you grow the people.

Greg Voisen
I love what you said, I love what you say in your first book, The Speed of Trust, I think, look, one of the challenges people have in today's world is over commit and under deliver. Yep. And part of it is because the speed of technology, they say they're going to do something, and then it never happens. Or they forget, because they've loaded their plates with so much to do. And you and I could spend hours just talking about this and how you would fix it. But I just want to put that in there. Because today, you need to think about what you can commit to say no to the things you can't with an explanation and yes to the things that you can, because it's the biggest thing that will get you in trouble.

Stephen M.R. Covey
It is that's the biggest thing that causes people lose trust, is when they don't keep their commitment when they don't do what they said they were going to do. So as a fast way to build trust is when they do what they say they're going to do. And that's why if you create the agreement really well up front, you'll not only get the job done, you'll build the relationship of trust, that's then your ability to get more results goes up. So that's trusting, and really how then is a stewardship of leader to be trusting other people in the appropriate ways. I'm not saying a one size fits all, you got to build agreements with everyone, you got to you know, use good judgment, but find more ways to be more trusting of your people to unleash their capabilities and their talent. And finally, the third stretch ship then, is inspiring. And that's all about connecting to why it's what you started off with Greg, the whole idea that if you have a connection to purpose, and to meaning into contribution, then it doesn't feel like work, because you're inspired by it. And here's my main point. Everyone can inspire inspiring others is a learnable skill. It's not just for the charismatic. So I want to separate inspiring others from Charisma. You don't have to be charismatic to inspire. In fact, I know a lot of people who are charismatic, who aren't inspiring. And I know other people who are no would describe as charismatic, but who are extraordinarily inspiring, because here's how you inspire. You inspire others when you connect with people through caring, and belonging. And then when you connect people to purpose, to meaning, to contribution to why it matters. And everyone can learn to do that connect with people connect to purpose. And that's learn about inspiring others is a learnable skill. And people want to be inspired is the study from zanger Folkman sort of the number one desire that people have from their leaders, a leader who inspires and yet they're not getting it. And I think it's because we're, we're thinking that you got to be charismatic, know, connect with people through caring that love that herb Keller talks about in the caring and the concern. And also, you know, you inspire when you when you find your own way to help others find theirs. You care about them. That

Greg Voisen
it's really phenomenal to see. Vladimir's Zelinsky, the President of Ukraine. How inspirational he is to people. Here's a guy, a comedian, actor named president of the country, but in the commitment that people have around what he's attempting to do. I mean, we're sitting here in this time, you know, I'm going to wrap our interview up with this with this because it's about building teams around you, right? And I'm going to be interviewing and I don't want to mess his last name up Eric on Friday the mount blind mountain climber is it wine and wine higher wine Meyer, on Friday for a book that I'm helping another mountain climber, right? Who's been up all the highest Seven Summits and attics. And Eric, obviously, for those of you don't know him, I'll put a link to his website, in this blog is a blank mountain climber who has an amazing story. Why is it so important to the listeners and the readers of trust and inspire to understand the importance of the teamwork that Eric created to successfully make the ascent of Everest

Stephen M.R. Covey
is a remarkable story is it is it is And long story short, is that no, unblinded ever submitted to the top at the time, Eric was going to do it. So we put together a team that had all the right capabilities to help him do it. But the most important thing is the team was united around a common purpose. And the purpose was to get Eric to the top. Not just you know, usually it's every man or woman for themselves, you know, but this team had a loftier goal to get Eric to the top, up and back down. And as they went about this, they modeled all three of those Stuart's chips in that they were models, they went first, they didn't ask something of others that they wouldn't do themselves. They were a model of the behavior that was needed of the timber that was needed. And they let out and did it first, so that they weren't waiting on anybody else. Everybody modeled the teaming behavior, and the selfless behavior towards helping Eric succeed, they trusted each other. They got the trust, Eric had to have to climb Everest blind, he had to have complete trust in his team and their competence and their character. And they trusted him and he trusted them. It was a mutual trust that was that was both extended and received. And they and they were inspired by that. And then finally, they were inspired because they had a purpose that was bigger than any one purpose. And one person there. The purpose was, for Eric to succeed to get to the top and back down. And here's the miraculous results, the outcomes. There were 19 people on that sent, all 19 people made it to the top and back down. Now when I dropped out earlier, from when he got sick, but he didn't make the ascent he didn't try had dropped out earlier in the thing. Everyone went to the top and back. And the filmmaker Michael Brown was asked why did everyone succeed? Because we had a loftier purpose. It wasn't every man or woman for themselves, it was how can we help Eric, get to the top and back down. And that inspires. And when people are inspired, they can perform extraordinary things. So they modeled, they trusted, and they inspired. And you can do it as a mountain climbing team. And a mountain climber you could do it is such an Adela, building an organization, you can do it as a leader, as an entrepreneur, you can do it as a parent, you can model you can trash you can inspire. This is the kind of leadership that is needed. In a world that is low in inspiration and low interest. We need to trust and inspire leaders and parents and examples to help elevate our societies a better way to lead in a new world.

Greg Voisen
Even this book, trust and inspire needs to be written in every language of Simon and Schuster hasn't done it already. And the reality is and spread worldwide because this can change leaders everywhere. School districts, CEOs, everywhere, this is what needs to happen in all the structure governments, right? Because we're in this fourth turning where things are all changing. And it's this kind of instruction and wisdom that you've written about that so important for people to understand. For my listeners will have a link to trust and inspire. You'll go to Amazon is I went this morning and look and I see the Simon and Schuster page. Is there a page specifically just for the book? Is there a book website? I didn't see it.

Stephen M.R. Covey
Trust inspire.com is live April 5,

Greg Voisen
April 5, okay, cash flow, calm. We'll make sure we'll make sure that we have the trust inspired calm up there for all the listeners so that they can go get it, Stephen. It's been a blessing having you on and an honor to actually finally be able to get to interview you. Thank you so much for your time today. And in parting, moving from a command and control to a trusted inspire and I'm not getting To say workplace, I'm just going to say environment. Because the reality is, everywhere we work today, whether it's from home, or it's from our car, or it's out in the field, or it's in an office where you're working, as long as you can love what you can do, there should be no separations. These lines are all great now. And if you work for somebody that inspires you, okay truly inspires you. You are you're blessed beyond belief. Okay. And so Blessings to you. Thank you so much for being on my show today and sharing this book, your inspiration is magnetic. Just appeal. It's all over. So thanks so much any parting words?

Stephen M.R. Covey
Well, first of all, thank you, Greg. What a delight and honor to be on inside personal growth Podcast. I'm grateful. I'm appreciative. But also this, that last point you made, what a blessing it is when you have someone that trusts you and inspires you. And most of us have probably had someone at some point in our life, maybe multiple people, but probably at least one. So my, I want to turn that around for our listeners and our viewers and say, yes, if you had someone who trusted and inspired you, what did that do for you? And for whom? Could you be that kind of person? For whom could you be a trust and aspire person or leader or friend, you're a parent. That's the power of this. This will be a better way to live and lead and we need to in our world today.

Greg Voisen
Thanks for leaving us with that, Stephen. Kudos to you. Kudos to the team at Franklin Covey or Franklin Covey leadership company link. And for all the work that you guys do

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