Jeff Martinovich Interview

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Virginia is a well basically a great author Jeff Martin Martin say it for me again. Well, you know, Martin of itch, they know that's a is that polish.

Jeff Martinovich
It's a Serbian, Croatian that area.

Greg Voisen
Okay. I have some friends from Sylvania, and I always get their game. It's very hard to pronounce. So thank you for doing that. And we're gonna be speaking with Jeff about his new book. Just one more. The wisdom of Bob back of it, which is that correct?

Jeff Martinovich
Bob Vukovich you're doing well.

Greg Voisen
Vukovich and there's a martini glass on there that has some significance, which we'll get into here. In this you see the Martini being spilled over? I am Jeff going to let my listeners know a tad bit about you before we get started. And he does have a truly fascinating story. Jeff earned his Bachelor's in Business Management from the United States Air Force Academy and his MBA in finance from the College of William and Mary. He had the honor of serving his country during the first Gulf War as a tactical air command headquarters. Langley Virginia. Pursuing a second career in financial services. Jeff is the founder and CEO of M I C. G investment management, a billion dollar wealth management firm nationally recognized for its rapid growth. Wow service and a player culture. Following 2008 financial crisis, EMI CGS proprietary hedge fund experience regulatory scrutiny and allegations as Jeff vigorously defended his firm, refusing multiple settlement offers, and instead choosing to defend his employees and himself in federal court. This led to a bizarre narrative, Jeff was convicted and sentenced to 14 years in federal prison. His case was reversed twice by the Fourth Circuit Courts of Appeals, and two separate US District Court judges were removed. And his successful federal suit uncovered fraud and collusion holding him at high security, violent prison in May of 2020. After seven years, Jeff was released to home confinement, and began his journey of rebuilding, restoring and turning advantages and disadvantages. Well, Jeff, that doesn't sum it all up. But it does a very good job of giving the listeners an idea of your interesting path. And an interesting one it is and you know, there have been many others that have kind of fallen into this same financial situation. You and I were profiling one before, that a big movie was made about when we got on and did our little pre interview call. And if you would, if give the listeners just a little bit more than that condensed version of the story, because I think they want to know, and then we'll get into the book. Why the book, why you think the lessons that you're teaching in this book are so important for people to hear. Because they really are in the way you told it. And kind of using a separate character Bob to basically tell the story and often Bob drinking a martini.

Jeff Martinovich
He does like Martini.

Greg Voisen
So and and, and Bobby, just so listeners know, Bob is a alias for Jeff. Right?

Jeff Martinovich
Maybe I can't really admit to that today. Yeah,

Greg Voisen
yeah. So it's been supposed so so go ahead and give us a you know a little bit more about the details, how you felt you fell into this situation, and then defending you and your employees and the company and then ultimately still being sentenced serving seven to 14 years and then being released to kind of serve out the rest of your time. With you didn't say an ankle bracelet but a an ankle but yes, I guess they're keeping track of you.

Jeff Martinovich
Yes. Still Greg, I mean, thank you so much for the opportunity. It's always fun to talk to you. But But, but that was a good synopsis you gave is, is it's been a crazy ride and it very terrible at certain points. But also, I've been incredibly fortunate and very lucky on on other points. And I think when I speak to other business groups or CEO groups about this journey, it's one of those things like, boy, unfortunately, it could happen to any one of us overnight, could happen to any one of us tomorrow. And I think we're also we're, we have these moments in our life, that we have to make these monumental decisions about what's important to us, what are we going to stand up for? What are we going to maybe compromise on and make, make a business decision? And, you know, 2008 was a very terrible time for a lot of us. And, you know, we weathered that storm, okay, but but then the regulatory backlash, and a lot of the State of the Nation very similar to a lot of things going on today. And, and so we, the big firms really kind of survived all of that. And you know, they had their fines on Wall Street, but nobody personally really paid much, much penalty for that. But what a lot of people don't realize is that the regulators and the government did go around and shut down 1000s of what I call tier two firms or smaller guys, who didn't really maybe have $7 billion available to write a check to make all those problems go away. So when we were also accused of some nefarious things in mispricing, a stock in a hedge fund, you know, I knew that nobody in our firm had really done that we had a fleet of attorneys fleet of CPAs. And so I had to make a decision, would I, you know, accept these offers? Have you accepted, and it's a plea and you move on for that. And laughter, a lot of soul searching. And a lot of, you know, I went to the honor, I went to the Air Force Academy, and we tried to instill the honor code and I, I made a decision to stand up. And so I didn't accept my myth, I rejected three separate plea offers went to trial against the United States federal government. Little did I know at the time that 98 and a half percent of those all end in convictions? And yes, one day I was managing a billion dollar firm the next day, I was sentenced to 14 years in prison. And so of course, they if

Greg Voisen
if you had accepted those plea offers, would Riot have bankrupt the company?

Jeff Martinovich
You know, it's a really interesting thing I under I can never understand why they kill the golden goose when you have so many shareholders and employees. But yes, what they did is they basically shut down that company because I refused to do certain settlements. And it spiraled from regulatory to criminal and prosecutors. And it was just a nuclear meltdown that kept getting worse and worse. And you almost can't stop it once it gets in motion.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. And it's hard to fight the SEC, I think it can be quite challenging. It's one of those regulatory Commission's that, because you're dealing with other people's money, seem to have a lot more authority and ability to do things and then other people, right? That's right. One of the things

Jeff Martinovich
that I've I've actually, as I try to help other people is, you know, here's all the mistakes I have made. And one of the lessons we talked about is what I should have done, probably has done a much better job fighting that at the regulatory level. And trying to resolve that and fix it and standing up for it versus, you know, finally agreeing to to let it happen. Because it because it would have been probably easier to fight it there than at a federal prosecution level.

Greg Voisen
But your firm wasn't involved in something like Bernie Madoff, I mean, oh, no, it was It wasn't anything like that at

Jeff Martinovich
all. We had one small stock, but it was point 2% of our investments, a solar company that went out of business. And so the regulatory agencies went back three years earlier and said, Well, we must have priced it too high. If three years earlier went out of business, if you remember, Solyndra and an Obama administration and all those stocks that that had a terrible time back then. So yes, so that's why You know, there was nothing for us to really kind of agree to. So that's why I went to trial. And, and that was a terrible, terrible event for five weeks, and then I was sentenced to 14 years.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, you learned a lot, obviously, and you put much in the book through Bob Vukovich. You know, it's kind of like your alter ego, let's just put it that way. And, you know, just one more, which is just one more drink just one more of anything. The wisdom of Vukovich is a very unique title. Obviously, I'm saying, Bob, is you. But what inspired you to want to come out of prison and write this book and tell this story? A lot of people would just, you know, kind of not do that not expose themselves? Right, you know, they've already been exposed. I read some of the legal descriptions, and you have submit your website. Right? So you're kind of fully transparent with this. Yeah, it's the opportunity people to learn lessons from this. Why? What soul searching? Did you have to do to want to, you know, go back and relive the pain?

Jeff Martinovich
Well, there's a few variables in that equation, but one is certainly, you know, we had a, we had a great family of clients, employees and shareholders, who were all hurt during this terrible nuclear meltdown. And so, you know, I feel this responsibility that regardless of how things happen, you know, when you're the CEO, you know, you're the leader, and the buck stops there. And so what I've been on a mission to do is try to not cry about the situation, not be self pity, not be depressed, not run away, but to try to fix it. And, you know, in the military and sports, you know, we learned that, hey, you know, next play coach, Kay, and his Duke, Blue Devils is famous for next play, after a mistake, get up and fix it, and let's move forward. And so by being very transparent, I can't imagine I can't even begin to tell you how many people have come out of the woodwork and for business and consulting and help in speaking, that, you know, can use the these lessons to help more people. So I really want to restore all of us who were kind of hurt through this experience. I want to kind of take care of all those items. And I think that that demands that I'm very open about it. And we use it as something, as you said, to turn disadvantages into advantages.

Greg Voisen
So our and this is one of the questions. So are any of I would assume some of those people are bitter, and, and angry and still bitter and angry. And some of them understand the situation. So that you're not running around with a hurt heart. And the ability to have self compassion for yourself. What have you found gives you self compassion? To actually pull this story together? And feel okay with it?

Jeff Martinovich
It's a great question is, is through a lot of interviews I've had for the book, is they asked me like, you know, how'd you get through these 1000s of days and this terrible environment in still kind of keep it together with your own self worth? You know, I believe as human beings, we all have to somewhere deep down inside us believe that either we believe we're a good person, or somebody believes in us. And without that we have no hope, zero inspiration to accomplish anything. And so one of my tricks through this whole time when I was away, was to say, Hey, today, I'm going to get stronger. I'm going to get stronger physically, intellectually, and emotionally, spiritually. And I and I don't know what's going to happen today. And I'm going to have a ton of battles. But I do know, if I do that every day, put my head on the pillow on that steel, God. At the end of the day, tomorrow's going to be better. And that's what enabled me to file over 500 motions I had to represent because certainly when you lose everything, you lose everything. So I had to teach myself federal criminal law. I had to represent myself, I took a job in the law library taking care of all the other inmates in really laws of attraction by helping all of them, I really learned so much that eventually, by a lot of luck, you know, was able to reverse my own case a few times, and able to bring to light a lot of the things going on. So I think it's just how do you eat an elephant, and it is those little steps every day that helps us make forward progress. Because if we don't do that, it's so easy to just collapse into self pity, despair, depression. And I think that's how we kind of eventually made it through the other side of the tunnel.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, and you speak about the why not me speak about why not me attitude is one of the most important determiners of success. What advice can you give our listeners about using the why not me attitude to reach their goals?

Jeff Martinovich
Well, that's something I discovered a long time ago. And I'm a big believer that life's all about exposure. And it's just confidence. And you know, you need to say yes, and you need to step through that window of opportunity. But what I learned specially in the financial world, is I never had any money. I never knew anybody with any money. And so you know, I started at 0.00. And each week, each month, you'd get a little bit more confidence. Well, then I started to meet very successful people, very wealthy people, the leaders of Wall Street, and we would have a meeting and I'd come back and tell my friends, wow, those are really some great people. They have all the same concerns and worries and traumas and tragedies as we do. They just make, you know, $100 million more than we do. And it became the time to say, why not me. And I saw it as I've started up many other smaller businesses, and we bring in young entrepreneurs, it's all in the mind of believing, why not me, as the quarterback for the Seattle Seahawks set after winning the Super Bowl, you know, my father always told me, somebody's got to be on the varsity, somebody's got to be the quarterback, somebody's got to win the Super Bowl. Why not me. And we've really adopted that. And I believe that's the huge part. You're a great example of that you have so many incredible connections and friends and concentric circles, where you connect the dots for people and give all this incredible inspiration, because you had the confidence to take those leaps. And as we know, the scars that we have from our past, certainly, I always tell you, by the don't worry about making a mistake, I've made way more than anyone. But those are what allow you to now see around corners, and to have the confidence like, you know what, I'll pick up the phone. And I'll call people like Greg, even though he could be very intimidating, as successful as he is. I think that's the whole why not me function that creates the success. I think

Greg Voisen
one of the things that happens in any career, the longer you're there, and the more success you has have is your humility and your transparency. And humility to me is probably the most important, you know, as speaking with the mountain climber, friend of mine, Bo par fat. And he wrote a book called die trying. And I am helping him write his next book. And it is an interesting old story. And I said, Did you see that Netflix video that this guy by the name of NIMS did. He climbed all 14 highest summits in the world in six months in six days? Nobody had done it less than seven years prior to that. I said it's possibility you could reach out to him or do you know him or lo and behold, he reaches out to a guy in London, the guy in London used to climb with him. He setting up an interview. And the Netflix video is phenomenal. Like and it's called 14 peaks. project possible. Nothing was impossible. He said, You know the only way that when you're climbing a mountain, that you die as if you give up and he said you never give up. And I thought such great advice, whether it's mountain climbing business, being in prison, whatever it is. The minute you choose to give up is the minute the elements will get you a minute the prison will get you the prison guards will get you the people inside I'll get you. So the reality is That's kind of the way you got to do it. So you speak about the halo effect, and why do you believe that people with great Halo effects, watch their successes beget even more success? I think that's an appropriate question given what we're just talking.

Jeff Martinovich
Right, right. Well, you know, as you teach a lot, you know, we live in this universe, which is really like a big electrical grid. And, you know, we have the, we have the ability to send out positive protons, or negative electrons. And, and as the, as the formula works, we seem to get back what we put out. And I, you watch these people that have this halo effect, or organizations, and I use like Goldman Sachs, as one example, or the New York Yankees, you know, once you have this level of success, success becomes a habit. And people not only will, will be more successful, but they expect success. And then you as you perceive them, you expect success from them also, in so I call that a halo and certain certain organizations will use that term, but you can really, I take it all the way to the level of, I think you can see it, it's like the aura, the glow, the energy, I write in the book, kind of funny things about business cocktailing over the hot over the holidays, you know, people in business, in life, in general want to be around other people that are exuding energy, and excitement and success. And because so many so much of the world is not, because people at the very fundamental core, I believe everybody just wants to be inspired, they want to be part of something special. And those Halo people just seem to, like, always land on their feet. And they have great success. So a lot of people will be cynical about, you know, they're lucky, or they always get the breaks. But as you know, and you've written much about, you know, everyone creates their own breaks. So I think again, if you get the halo mentality very similar to a why not me mentality, you then will just be creating more success for yourself, plus all the people you do business with, and all the people in your organizations.

Greg Voisen
And, and that is true. And one of the most important things you can do is manage that energy. You talked about the flow in and the flow out. And you have anybody recognizes how those energies can for better sense of the word kind of go haywire. When when you see somebody with a halo around them and aura, you recognize that if you can see that aura, that that's positive light energy, that's spiritual energy that's Call it what you want God energy. You know, I was told once from a friend, I'm a self realization devotee. And I was at the temple yesterday with the monk was speaking. And, you know, I can always see the halo and this gentleman who got me involved with it years ago, we were talking about alcohol abuse of alcohol, alcoholism, doesn't matter if it's Christmas time, it's any time of the year. And it was interesting, somebody wrote a book and they said, how the dark forces call it evil devil, inner one's body when one becomes a need raid. And, you know, I found that to be true, because I had a son who, at a certain point in his life was drinking way too much. And he got so angry with me with fight we actually got in physical fights. And I could see when I would see in his eyes, I didn't see my son. I saw somebody else who had taken over. And I think many people can say that about people who've been alcoholics or have had family members or experienced it, they recognize that and I have nothing against alcohol. What I'm saying is everything in moderation. So, you know, you use this Bistro, as the setup for most of the scenes for Bob, and you describe it as an oasis and a magical place. And in your mind, as the writer, it is and you describe this place, or can you describe this place? And what does it represent really in the story? It's like this is where a lot of stuff takes places that Bistro.

Jeff Martinovich
And I think yeah, it's, it's it's a real place, but it's also a metaphor. There is a beat, there is a real bistro in downtown Norfolk, we had an office close there and, and we spent too much time there back in the days. And we we own this Bistro. And that's why we said it's time to go we say just one more, but then I've got to go. And but where we use it in the book of for the book is many times that place has been this oasis, it's really a refuge, to where possibly judgment is not present. And maybe your past is put on hold for a little bit, or the worries about the future are maybe set aside for an hour or two. So if you take all the positive parts of a place like that, and we we say these special doors that lead you know, to the outside world, Bob really had created a community in the bistro, where all of the neighborhood people would come maybe like in the olden days, or maybe in that one cheers restaurant, where norm and everybody would go. But it seems to be a place where people value friendship, don't make judgments and are optimistic about the future. And so it provides this enclave that allows Bob to teach these lessons, these wisdoms of classing grace and life to young Cole Johnson every Thursday. And by the end, you know, it's Bob has kind of spent his time there. And he is reinjected, ated possibly his life. And so that's how he leaves that special Oasis to call.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and you say you say in the book Bob, mentors call on success, failure, women politics, and most importantly, serving perfect martini. perfect martini was mentioned several times in the story. Aside from Bob and Cole's favorite drink, does it symbolize anything else in the story for you?

Jeff Martinovich
Well, it is it is also kind of a metaphor metaphor, because the perfect martini as it was taught to me many years ago by a mentor is half vodka, vodka for smoothness, and half gin for a little bit of a bite. And so it really is kind of that yin and yang of our life, and the good and the bad, and the bite and the smooth. And so it is meant to symbolize a lot of that. And as we see in Bob's life, Bob was at the top of the mountain, and then he was down at the, you know, the lowest Valley possible. And the key to the narrative is will bob be able to make it back himself because many times when you're in that desert, many people never make it back in. So a lot of the work that I do with corporations now plus other groups, is trying to help people get through these terrible, terrible times, because we all go through them, and try to see that light at the end of the tunnel. And whether it's financially or corporately or just personally, I like you know, get back to the oasis.

Greg Voisen
Well, the Oasis is what you create in your mind. I know somebody yesterday was speaking with me about the mistakes they made, thinking that someone else or something was supposed to make them happy. And happiness is not about someone else making you happy. It's not about something making you happy. It's about you being happy inside. And whether you're in prison, or wherever you are, you are responsible for everything that happens to you, and you are responsible for your own happiness. Now what you did mention was I'm going to show a little sign here. Be here now. Okay, this this sits on my desk all rom Das was actually on my show before he passed away. And many of my listeners obviously know who rom Das is but that people have been seeking happiness for a long time in one way or another. And having an attachment to an outcome is one of those ways as you know, having being as driven as you are. And the outcome didn't come out the way you expected for a big dose of depression and anxiety, and unhappiness. So what I like to mention to my audiences is, this is a great analogy for Jeff. Yesterday was a canceled check, and tomorrow is a promissory note. Okay, and the only thing you really have is now, correct. Because yesterday already happened tomorrow, there's no guarantees. Okay? It's promissory. And so if you can step into the now and stay in the now, it's probably one of the most psychologically important things you can do to keep your mental acuity, including somebody like you is confined for seven years. If you couldn't find the now you were in trouble. Because I guarantee you, your monkey mind wanted to go to the future. It lived the past. It lived it over and over and over and over again. Yes, seven years was a long time to think about the fact that the only place I can live is right here right now. I can't live anywhere else. So in brain compartmentalization, you speak about managing tasks and responsibilities. Let's talk about brain compartmentalization. Right link with the audience about the role of brain compartmentalization in multitasking, because that's an important element life.

Jeff Martinovich
Sure, absolutely. And, you know, let me first say that, you know, so, so much easier said than done. But we do see, Bob tries to teach about brain compartmentalization. Because we see these people who, again, maybe they're the halo people, and they seem to have 9000 problems going on, or 9000 things they're juggling, but you never see him sweat. And then there's other people we know who may may be good friends with, when they have one issue, one problem, they're the drama queen. And that one problem, you know, envelops all the space around them and all the rest of us. And so we wonder why is there such a big dichotomy there, why there's such a big difference. And certain people, I believe, have just learned over time, through business, through sports, through the military, whatever it would be, to manage more items, manage more items, and they always say, Who do you give the toughest new task to the persons whose list is already a mile long, because that's the person who's going to get it done in your corporation. And so I think the people who take on a little bit more, take out a little bit more, start building this fiber that allows them to be stronger, and to compartmentalize things in their brain. So that when they're going through these big, terrible events, they're able to take a breath, focus. During the 2008 financial crisis, I think I mentioned in the book, I would drive home after work, take a big breath on the front porch, try to recenter myself, because my son and my wife and my family was, you know, 100 times more important, of course, but if we don't try to compartmentalize, where it's all gonna spew over and everything else we do in life. So these people who are able to do this can accomplish amazing amount of items. I I also know, you know, one cubicle to the next cubicle, you can have 10 to 50 times more productivity out of one person than the next. And I think it really narrows down to people who are just able to compartmentalize the brain and focus on what is happening now.

Greg Voisen
I agree 100%, with what you just said. And I'd add something and I think the people that Steve Jobs used to say this, you know, you can solve a problem by looking in the past. And when you can connect the dots, you can so I think people that compartmentalize and learn how to connect the dots between events, can actually almost predict the future or can predict the future. Our history tells a lot about who we are as a species and who we are as individuals and what this world is doing, whether it's Wall Street, or its main street, okay. You can see you can feel it in a town you can walk into a town and you can feel the vibration of that town. Okay. And then if you're astute enough, you can feel what's needed. You can see what's needed just by observing the people. So if you're curious, you'll ask questions. Thus me as a podcaster, I think the most important thing one can do is learn how to ask questions, and then shut up and listen. Okay? And cheer for success and not failure. You describe the word. I don't know. I even say it, would it s ch a D en F. Shot in Freud shot in Freida German nice German word. Yeah, that's a way to take pleasure. In others misery. Please speak with the listeners about SHODAN freight as it relates to success. I'm not going to actually take pleasure in your misery.

Jeff Martinovich
Well, it unfortunately, is quite a common human characteristic. There's a lot of jokes about the Russian who doesn't want you know, to get more cows, he would rather have his neighbor's cow die. And these these these theories about We'd rather see other people not do well then cheerlead for their success. And I think it's another example of the most successful people that I've been exposed to have been around have not been like the TV movies, where they're, you know, a cynical corporate raider type person. They've been incredible loving, and giving and generous people. And what what they're rooting for is your success. And so when the neighbor gets a new Mercedes, they're happy for them. When the person down the hall gets a big promotion, they truly are happy for them. And they don't grade themselves by other people's success or failure. And so what we see is, there's always that person in our organization, who just seems to always get the promotion always seems to do well. And just good things happen to that person in what you see is more nine times out of 10. They're the great cheerleader. They're the they're the person who's helping everybody else up, you know, when restaurants will all located in the same corner of town. And everybody wonders like why do they do that by all their competitors, but they they locate there together. And they cheer for the success of all the competitor restaurants, because they know if they do well, more people will flow there, and they will do well themselves. And I think it's this real fundamental issue that if we can in our children, and in our young entrepreneurs in our businesses, show them that if you spend all day giving referrals to everyone else, you'll never have to ask for one your entire career. And I I've seen it over and over. And I try to remind myself constantly to spend the day helping out all these other business owners. And at the end of the day, it's going to come back to us 100 times Oh,

Greg Voisen
yep. That's laws of reciprocity laws. All you need to do is with compassion, give of yourself, give your time, and you will get the rewards doesn't always come financially. I need to always stop there and make that statement. It comes intrinsically. A lot of times it is intrinsic. And the other thing is, you can't have expectations of what others will do, because it literally will get you down. If you always support it, yeah, if you have an expectation about somebody is supposed to act a certain way or do something a certain way. You can be assured you're setting yourself up for up basically having, you know, anguish of some type. I don't care which type it is, but it's going to be anguish. That's right now, you ended the book with a lot of Bob isms. Right? So these are Jeff isms. If you were to leave our listeners with three of the most important Bob isms in the book, oh boy, what are they and how can they apply them to their lives? Jeff? I mean, you know, you got a lot of Bob isms.

Jeff Martinovich
We do we do? You know, I guess not to quote him directly, but to look at the themes is at the very beginning of the book, where we've adopted The Man in the Arena, quote, I think that's a really key fundamental, especially in our world here today is we want to have the guts to be the man in the arena, and not the timid souls in the critics in the stand. And that Teddy Roosevelt speech is one of my favorites. Because a big theme for Bob throughout this book is, you know, he, he took a mighty blow. And, and a lot of it's self induced. And so that's what the world serves up. That's why we came down to the planet this time to begin with. And so I think Bob's keys are, to open our eyes, to expand our brains. And really, at the end of the day, realize that the great majority of what we think is true in this world, very likely is not our judgments and perceptions of others, what we believe certainly on the TV telling us every day, depending on what channel we turn on, all of that, throughout history has been so much of it's been proven to be false. So if we can be here now, expand our brains, expand our minds, and just keep playing this competitive game of life. You know, I think I think the possibilities, I am such a great example of man, if you can just hang in there a little bit longer. You know, the survival stations while we're hiking is only a mile away. So many times we give up within that last mile like us, like you mentioned. And when I came home, and I finally made it, and I was disappointed 1000 times, and, and I also like to say, you know, we pray in our time, and God answers it is diamond, just like you said, you just don't know when it's going to happen, or how it's going to happen. But I came home, I'm working every day with my son, I'm taking care of my mother, my beautiful wife, Ashley, and we were blessed with a miracle of a brand new baby, little girl, Carly. And at my advanced age, that was beyond a miracle. I can't believe it. And so now she's three months old. And our life is just amazing. All these people have come out of the woodwork for business. And so these miracles happen. And so if we can just keep that focus, I believe it works out?

Greg Voisen
Well, I would say, you know, look for somebody to have the fortitude and ability to come out and actually speak about it. Just one more. You know, Bob Vukovich, and Jeff are very much aligned in their philosophy. That's our experience. Yeah. And I would say that, you know, for my readers go out and get this, we'll put a link to Amazon, we'll put a link to Kindle book. Is it is it in Kindle as well, it is. Okay. So and either that book or Kindle? I think when somebody goes through the kind of adversity that Jeff has been through, you can learn a lot in what you can learn, as he said, about 20 minutes ago, is it it can happen to anybody? Okay, it can. And it doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, a financial collapse, like what happened to Jeff, there are other things that can be devastating that can occur to you, that could happen. Now. On the other hand, you can also try and prevent yourself from getting into those situations. I think risk is imperative in life. But I also say that if the risk is how do you want to say, evaluated risk? In other words, look at the risks you're taking. And then there's a risk to climb a mountain, which ultimately, if it's k two or or it's Everest, could be death? You know, that's finitude, that's, it's over that, right. The other risks that you take in life that you take everyday, these financial risks can be financial, but as Jeff has shown, you can come back from that. You know, you you can make it to that. But I think no matter what it is how you push yourself in life where you push yourself to understand what your limits are. Okay? And work within those limits. And if you want to expand them a little bit each time know what you're doing, you know, just know what you're doing. It's been a pleasure, Jeff having you on inside personal growth and speaking with the listeners, and giving us some of Bob isms and Jeff isms and telling us the story along the way. And congratulations to you and the new baby three months old. And for making it back home, and having time and taking the time to spend the rest of your life helping other people see this event as something that's a big learning lesson. And something that if they look just got a few of the lessons from you can prevent them from having it. Right. Be great, yeah. prevent them from having that kind of this in their life. So happy holiday seasons to you. And thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your insights and your wisdom and Bob's wisdom throughout the book.

Jeff Martinovich
Thank you, Greg. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity. Take care