Welcome back to another episode of Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of the podcast and Howard, everybody knows me, but nobody probably knows you. He's written a book called leave your phone at the door. On the other end of the line from London, England is Howard Lewis, Howard, how are you doing this evening? Doing very well. Great to be with you. Thanks for having me on the show. Looking forward to sharing some of the offline philosophy with your audience. Well, we're looking forward to having you share that, and I'm certain that it'll resonate with people. The question is, how do we get it to stick right? In other words, it's one thing to talk about something. It's another thing for people to actually do what you think that they might or should do. And so I'm going to let them know a little bit about you. Howard Lewis, the author of this book, is a cultured, creative and curious and he brings a multifarious box of tricks to the table, according to his bio at his website, which all of you can get to his website. And he's going to be giving us additional ways to get to the book. It's called off and on, law and off and on.com Greg, especially, offline and on.com offline and on.com There you go, and we'll put a link to that in the blog so you could just click on it. You don't have to remember it. But over many years, he sent investment reports for private circulation that touched upon issues such as infrastructure, demographics and the vulgarities of markets. He's he is broadened his horizon by reflecting two upon the aspects of art market. So he's got a whole family art collection. He's really a quite an interesting man and life in general. But more importantly, started sending articles to friends, clients and Associates on subjects that were interested in, or which he felt they should be aware of. And the response to this was overwhelmingly positive, and which led to the genius, the genesis of offline so fundamentally the premises behind it is, you know, leave your phone at the door, get together with people, share, be spontaneous, and that's what he's about. Currently, he's passionate about art, books, football, travel, wit and wonder, and he's extremely part partial to custard donuts. He's so it's pleasure having you on Howard. And so let's kind of get down to it, because the book is like asking people to rethink how they work in their life, right? What inspired you to create the offline concept, and how has it really evolved over the years? You said COVID kind of shut it down, and you haven't been doing as many of them, but you certainly learned a lot from all of the events that you put on over the years. So what did you walk away from and what did you learn about this?

Greg Voisen
The first thing to say is that having hosted many events, both private and corporate, the one thing I've learned is that wherever you go in the world, people are fundamentally the same, just a bit different, and there's actually far more that connects people and separates them. And the problem, in a way, is that there's a tendency for people to label themselves and one another far too quickly, and therefore it limits them. And I was always very curious person, and in a funny way, what you reflected upon before Greg, the notion of simply sending articles was really nothing other than me to say to people, hello, I was thinking about you. That was all, nothing else. No, do anything. I wasn't asking for a response. It was just a simple reminder that actually you were in my my mind. That was it. And I was sent articles in a rather indiscriminate way. There was no particular patent, it wasn't so I did every week, and there were probably a dozen or 15 people in particular who I sent things to. They were particularly receptive. They were interested. Anyway, one day, I met one of them for a coffee, came to articles to read. He knew I sent articles to other people as well. Just wondered out now what everybody else was getting, and that struck a chord with me. I thought myself interesting. Why not bring together this group, 12 or 15 people, plus a few more, besides post up together, share articles and see where it goes. And as you touched upon, it was a great success. And I realized two things, firstly, that most people have a real appetite for information, for insight expertise, but I really want the time to distill the vast produce of material Exactly, yeah. The other thing is that food is great leveler, and when you eat with people, you learn a great deal about them. And I started doing this in a rather kind of haphazard way, probably every six months I do another thing that it just grew. I never advertised all word of mouth. But the one thing I do want to emphasize is that there was no sense of kind of creating a particular type of environment. All we really wanted to do was to bring people inside the tent. It didn't matter where they came in from, left or right. Above both the side. So Howard, were these people from all different social economic classes, or did you have just very wealthy I mean, look, you deal in art. So the reality is, people could be listening to the show going well. This is a very wealthy art dealer, and his family has a very wealthy art collection. And you know, when you look at the pictures at your website, it's very elegant where you were holding these parties. So you always wonder, it's like, Was this just for the rich and famous, or was this for everybody, but for everybody, everybody, even you got to come Greg, if you're in town. Now, the short answer is, I didn't care where people came from. I didn't care how much money they had. I didn't care about their gender, their sexuality, their religions, and they're interested in at all what I care about very much that they were givers. I would say givers, people who were open and curious about other people, people who were interested learning fresh perspectives. People could take a little bit of a chance in life. And I can tell you that the range of people who came some quite prominent nothing to do with our people in politics, people in business, in tech, in fashion, people running a charity. You could be a librarian, you could be an academic, you could be retired. I didn't care to pay for a ticket and I would mix them all up. Some people may have known each other a bit. Some people I never seen before myself, that sense of randomness and serendipity, where you're not entirely sure quite how it'll go, who you'll be sitting next to what will happen next. And over the course of the evening, I would share a bunch of stories touching on the offline philosophy. There's really, as you said before is a celebration of the virtues of randomness and serendipity. Too many people, sadly, in the modern world, are far too prescriptive about what they do, where they do it, with whom they do it. Yeah, it's crazy. People have always lost any sense of spontaneity or even the idea of just changing your mind or doing it differently and offline, really encouraged people, in a sense, to be themselves. What I did, really, in a nutshell, was I gave people permission to be vulnerable. And I would start by saying, Yeah, I am reliably hopeless, and many things, many more things than you would imagine. But so what I'm here? I'm hosting the event. There are 30 people in the room, all smart, engaging, interesting, whatever they meet, whether you're having a landscape garden, whether you're a calligrapher, whether you're running a bank, I don't really care what you will do. What I care is you give when you're present and you're engaged, right? Not everybody's gonna necessarily be the greatest conversationalist. Some people take time to warm up. Some people a little bit cautious and shy. That's also fine, what matters, but over but over the years, Howard it worked. And so I think the listeners would learn a lot about if you shared a moment or a story where embracing this randomness kind of led to some surprising or meaningful experience. So let's say you've done these events. You leave the event and you're saying, Wow, that was a great evening. I got to meet a bunch of people. The question is, is, what kind of things happened after the people had these serendipitous events where they either connected, they did something together, they worked for a charity, they did something meaningful in life for themselves, something changed. What kind of stories do you have from that? Look, I have multiple stories. I think what I was going to do actually, is I would touch upon two stories, which actually didn't occur at a dinner at all, but they actually did touch upon the nature of randomness and serendipity, and it was an element of surprise. So going back to your original question, yes, multiple people became great friends, did business together once you had affairs. Fine, it wasn't my business. But the short answer is, actually there was no there was no consequence. Somebody put me very, very well. A guest who came a few times, she said to me, one of the reasons it works is because there's no agenda. There's no outcome. You know, let's just bring together 30 of people in a room for dinner, and they will make their own magic. And I was just there as a kind of prop to come and facilitate and make it happen. There were numerous people who, I mean, I know that one person in particular did a ten million deal based upon something he met at the one of those, for example, bench capital. I'm quite sure what business was. Many people collaborated, met separately, together or individually. I didn't ever keep track, because it wasn't really about having a club or a membership. I didn't really care what happened afterwards. Sometimes what did happen, which was great. I actually mentioned this in my occasion, in the book, people who've come to different dinners, who had no connection with one another at all. I brought together separately. So I remember there were three people I knew, all involved in tech and AI and neuroscience. I just got going very, very very well. Yeah, it sounds, it sounds like a lot of fun. And I think that, I think the key is the serendipity, the joy, the bringing these people together in an environment that allows them to be vulnerable. Like you said, they'd be open and vulnerable, but you, you argue, to kind of the technology often dulls the ability to communicate. We said, hey, where does this book fit? Does it fit in communications? Does this to fit in self help? And really, truly, it is about communication. And what we found is, you know, a lot of people hide Howard behind text. It's like, okay, I can text this person. I don't have to call them. I don't want to I'm going to text them. What are some of the practical ways people can reconnect with their natural communication skills, because these devices that we all carry, this little thing right here, okay, does frequently get in the way of us taking the time to have a meaningful dialog conversation with somebody. I think you see that that's right. I think there's a separate issue, which is actually that people have an inability to simply engage in the most basic way, even down to things like saying please and thank you to people right looking people in the eye when you talk to them, the complicated, smiling. You know, smiling is a very powerful emotional tool. Yeah, people actually do not exercise it enough. It's not as though people say, I'm not gonna do that. I gotta go and study how to smile. It should be. It should be. It should be a natural sensation. But the reality of that is that there are a lot of people who are very, very unsure of themselves. And one thing I've learned certainly is that many people are far more concerned in what may go wrong than may go right. In other words, okay,

Greg Voisen
even without to the etiquette of kissing somebody. Do I kiss on one cheek? Do I kiss on two? Do I start on the right or on the left? Is it maybe three? If I'm shaking somebody's hand, do I let somebody else go first? Because they're older, and I want to throw to them, it gets very confusing to understand what is appropriate, what everybody else is doing, what you did last time. In a way, one of the challenges of the technology is that people have forgotten how to engage in a regular way. It's also something like, we're talking about some incredibly complicated movie. It's also, you would say, you know, that I've never had that idea before, what opening the door for somebody, or maybe looking behind after you've gone through maybe somebody will pay you a compliment. Maybe some people very appreciative. Maybe they'll do it themselves in turn for somebody else. But these are always small ways in which one can interact and engage. It's not requiring anyone to have a deep, meaningful conversation. Just get the basics right. And I just feel that is actually a very simple starter pack. Well, one of the things that you had mentioned in the book is that our society today has become so reliant on smartphones. And you said, you know, for validation, but you're, you're saying that if we go offline, we can break this cycle. So the big key here is in breaking the cycle is embracing this randomness. But I do think some people have a fear of being vulnerable in groups. What would you give the listener out there who's there today saying, hey, look, I don't do really well, and just going to random parties with somebody, and they have a fear of showing up to be themselves, because they have they are thinking about, well, I've got to put on a certain suit. I've got to look at different a certain way. I've got to be whatever it is that I'm doing. How do you break all that down for somebody? Well, I think there are two things to say that, first of all, offline has a duality to it. Also, on the one hand, it's the opposite of online, but offline is also about wandering off the beaten track, just taking a different path, just taking a different route on your way to work. It will maybe deciding I'm playing tennis in the afternoon or morning. Nothing very radical about that. I don't think it's necessarily the case. If I feel worried or vulnerable because I'm with people. I don't know which is understandable. Some people are a bit more cautious, a bit more worried about the consequence. But I think what is important is, for example, I would say, go to a gallery or a museum with a couple of friends. If you find the conversations a bit heavy. You're not in the mood, you can wander off another room. You said, I'll see you in half an hour on the cafe, or maybe I'll see you around the corner. It's not that somehow you've got to do anything particularly remarkable. They always asking you to provide an exposition or some painting. But I think the idea that you can be social with it suits, and you can be separate when it suits, and at your own pace. That's within everybody's reach. I think some of these issues really are the way self imposed, the fear that something terrible will happen. You'll see something appropriate, and there'll be a thunderbolt from the heavens. You'll be turned into a pillar of salt. That won't be happening. Well, I think the idea to actually take, like you just mentioned, a different path to work, a different way to work in the morning, do something different, to break a pattern which you're normally in, because it will awaken you to what is out there in the world that's different, that you're missing, that you're not seeing. You said, Hey, I'm a very curious guy. Yeah, yeah, I can tell you're extremely curious, and I think curiosity leads to that passion, no matter what that passion is, that passion turns into a purpose. That purpose turns into a vision. That vision turns into some goals, and somebody go down the road, and that's what it is, but it starts with curiosity, and I love the fact that you said that because I'm an extremely curious person myself, always have been, on the other hand, for some of us who are so curious, like you and I, we have a hard time maybe making a decision, because there's so many things that we've attracted into our lives. We've got all this stuff that we that we love doing. In the book, you discuss the importance of being present and engage face to face, and I think this is a key point. How do you think the mindset impacts mental health and community building? Because, you know, like, this whole thing about going offline and being face to face and engaging is really, you know, we've done studies here in the US. I don't know what it's like in and in England, but I just had a guy on here called super psyched, and he wrote a whole book about the loneliness epidemic, the epidemic from our Surgeon General, is so bad here in the US that the mental health issues are not really good at all. I mean, suicide rates, all kinds of things. So let's just talk about that. Are you experiencing that same kind of thing in England? Look, I think it's a universal problem. I don't think there's any worse frankly, in England is in America or China or South Africa, really well, you kurti mentioned this is a universal problem. I don't know there's necessarily a universal solution. Some of these issues are rooted deeply in society. One of the problems you have, I think today, certainly in America and I think probably most of the developed world, is that the urban landscape has changed over the last 50 years. Once upon a time, people were out and about. Kids were playing on the street, mothers were around. There was a sense of a kind of a neighborhood. I think what changed? There's a very good book with your audience might be interested in dipping into by a fellow called Jonathan Haidt, who's an American I think he's like a psychotherapy it's called the anxious generation. And one of the observations he makes is that from around the 1980s a significantly greater number of women entered the workforce, and because they weren't always around to supervise their kids, they became almost over protected in terms of what they could do. When I was a kid, Greg, you know, I was growing up, I had sisters, and you know, my mother would say to me, okay, yeah, is 10 pounds, 20 hours, whatever, go off with your sisters and your friends to the park, take some money for a sandwich and a drink and come back when it's dark. I mean, today, unthinkable, right? Yeah, scaremongering about people who are lurking behind corners and what may go wrong? Yes, there's always that possibility. But I think what's happened is we cover an almost excessive wariness, and what it's done, in part, is contributed to children not playing quite as eight years, being inside more, not getting quite as much parental attention, and it has a snowball effect. So well, they're all they're all using technology to they're all on their iPad, or they're all on their their cell phone or their Android device. And you know, you see people go to dinner here, and I'm sure it's the same in England. The kids are sitting there on their devices, and the parents are eating dinner, and they're eating dinner separately. They're not communicating. Well, I think to myself, the problem there really is with the parents. The parents, unfortunately, are, in many cases, rather weak and rather lazy. That's an example. They're not consistent. They expect that they can behave in one way, and their children can't follow suit, which is wrong. You know, children, to a large extent, young children, mimic their parents behavior. If your mother is on the phone the entire time while she's cooking and she carries on looking while she's serving dinner, in a way, it becomes a part of everyday life. It shouldn't be. The problem with the phone is not so much the phone itself. The problem is, unfortunately, the profus of these apps, most of which have no value, particularly at all. You can live your life very happily without them. And it's this idea that somehow, if I stop looking, if I stop updating, if I stop following, I will become less and less relevant. The truth of matter is, nobody really cares where you become more or less relevant people. So with their own lives, it becomes like a self imposed problem whereby people convince themselves, unless they are active, unless they are engaged, somehow they'll simply fall off, and people see them just bring into the abyss, never to be seen again. It's crazy, crazy. So some of these issues, I mean, actually, on this subject, there's a very interesting article which I recommend to you, Greg and also to your audience, just come out in a magazine called The Atlantic, which is an American publication. It's called the anti social century by a protocol Derek Thompson. And I read it the other day, and it touches upon many of these themes, the number of restaurants in Chino which are thriving, but they're thriving our takeout service, right? Because people order, they pick up themselves or get a driver to collect it's taken back to their apartment or the house, and they eat behind closed doors, no doubt, watching technology all evening as well.

Greg Voisen
Now, well, I think sometimes Howard too. And I don't want to speak for the people out there, but if, if they give their child an iPad or an iPhone or whatever it might be, it also is a way for them to decompress with. It becomes the babysitter, right? It's like, Hey, here's the iPhone, here's the iPad. Go ahead. Go off, Junior, do your thing, because I need some downtime, because of the compression of the world that we seem to be in under time constraints to do all of these things, right? And so that is a challenge. So what are the biggest obstacles that people face, emotionally, physically, from disconnecting from technology. And how do you think, meaning, Howard, after having gone through all these dinners that you see something like this thing opening up and communicating with one another can be extremely beneficial for them. What would you recommend? Well, again, I think one doesn't want to be too rigid at mass. And I think you know, everybody, to some extent, has their own comfort zone, you and me included, and that's fine. Not everyone with us at all. I'm not stressing somehow that one engages in some radical and very dramatic transformation. Some of these moves and changes are quite incremental. Something once a month. I'm not stressing something out here tomorrow morning, you completely rebuild your life? No, of course not. But I think it's about really taking baby steps. I think you see that one I say interesting. Just to kind of, uh, touch upon this, I hosted dinner years ago, and a lady came. I didn't know. She went and asked about me in the newspaper. She approached me, said, Look, I love to come. She said, I'm running quite a size, which was totally over probably 10 million. Not insignificant. You've been outsourcing the business. She said, I got senior board. We're running away. All fine, but I want to be taken slightly on my comfort zone. I just feel in the same circle with the same people and the same conversations. I just want to be somehow stretching our familiar areas. I said, quite, great. Good problem. And I know because she told me. She said where she got there. She came twice when it came the first time she said, I was scared. I was really scared. I didn't know what's expected of me, how I come across. Could they pick up my accent? Was to do anything anyway, I kind of knew she's awkward and nervous. I put that some people who I knew were very good company and very easy to talk to. Anyway they go, chatting. She recognized somebody else from drinks before the wine is flowing. I'm telling a few stories. The evening progresses, and I see her halfway through the evening. Of a great time. I asked her about she said, you know something very interesting. I suddenly realized halfway through the evening I forgot to be scared. I forgot. Just slipped away. Yeah, nobody cared about which way she combed her hair or whether she had high heels. Although nobody's interested in what they were interested in is what kind of person she was, what she was passionate about in her life, what she wanted more of, whatever it may be, everything and nothing at the same time. And I think you see again, this is all about people taking elements of control over their own lives. Technology and a mobile devices have actually had the reverse effect. People are strangled by them, right? So let me ask you this, because frequently, when you remove these devices, and you create an awareness of the fact that the device may be having more control over you than you think. And then somebody actually like she just released and let go, and she became more of who she wanted to be, that she wasn't afraid anymore, she opened up. So my question is, really, do you believe that the people coming to your event, or people that going offline, from a spiritual standpoint, are having an awakening of their own selves, meaning their higher self? Do they do? Does anybody report to you like, Hey? This was I had epiphanies beyond belief about who I was and what I could be, and this was a wonderful experience. Or was this just, hey? I had a great evening, and that was it. I have to be honest to say that probably the latter, I mean, the old person may well have been spiritually gifted by the evening and how they somehow felt about themselves. I didn't actually ask the question. I don't think anybody actually volunteered. I certainly knew that there were many people who came back and they brought their friends, they brought their associates, they brought their children. I knew that without somehow taking a purely spiritual approach, I think the spirit of the event drew people in because, because there wasn't really much going on. When I sent the invitations out, it didn't say very much. Basically said, you know, comforted, I'm a 30 odd smart, clever people like yourself. I'll tell a few stories, and that's it. It wasn't a little intrigued, not quite sure what might happen, who you might bump into, which direction even you will take, what you might learn along the way, but might forget, I don't know. But all the while, you know, going back a step, you know, you made the point before there was a Dobby venue, and there are fine paintings and so forth. Yes, in a way, when you create an environment which is somehow visually appealing, anyway, it does take away some of the pressure. There's a distraction. There's a dig version. I think in a way people need to be a little bit more aware of what's around them. It's not that you could just think remarkable, but again, about the notion of being self aware, being familiar even down to the simple notion of asking somebody else who you don't know, do you like that picture? The environments? You held them in were utterly gorgeous. I could see pictures. That was my club. Yeah, beautiful, yeah, pictures. So questions. Look, we, many of the people listening to this are business people. They work in environments where those phones are required. Those computers are required, those iPads are required, whatever it might be for them to do their business. Do you think businesses and corporations really have to play a role encouraging people to kind of embrace the offline lifestyle? And if so, what would you tell a CEO today or midline manager or something about letting people kind of decompress from this and having open sessions like yours at work? So in other words, let's say we do an offline meet up at work, an offline dinner at work, and we say, Hey, don't bring your cell phones. Don't bring your iPads, don't bring anything. We're going to do that at work. Look, I do that anyway. I mean, obviously one of the conditions, in the sense of an offline dinner was there was no technology, you know, and I would say, actually, in front of every boy at the beginning, you got your phone on, put it away, turn it off, right? Didn't invite your phone. I invited you, and only you, and I want you to provide me and everybody else who full attention and respect for the event, and yourself and the room. Pay attention. Do not be distracted or sidetracked by, I don't know a football score or something your mother in your center. That's not relevant at that moment, right? I would say that there are many strands to this. I think that people need to be incentivized and rewarded for spending more time offline. There needs to be some tangible reason for people to change their behavior. Now, if I said to you, okay, I wouldn't go into the nitty gritty. How can you reward people in a really meaningful way, things they could never do ordinarily? Now, harking back many years, I wrote a special story in the book somebody I knew many years ago he was a brilliant salesman who really made his mark in the early 70s as a very young man working with Xerox. I don't know if anybody listening was involved with Xerox, and he said to me that as an incentive to the salesman, the top 20 grossing salesman, overview of book revenue. Will spend a week at the Playboy Mansion. And you can well imagine Greg. The competition was very fierce. One week always paid at the Playboy Mansion in Hollywood, wherever it may be. Now, if you provided that kind of incentive, you were so if you're saying for the people who are least active outside of central business? On their mobile you can't track all these things, okay? We're going to say, right, we're taking 10 people to the Super Bowl. You never go on there, or you probably go get a ticket. That's your incentive. That's your robot to change your behavior. That's, in a way, the kind of the reward the end of the life, or maybe, okay, music, okay, we are going to arrange a private jamming session with Taylor Swift, 50 people maximum from our corporation. Can go, that's a big incentive. Love music, I know she plays, right? This is very popular, yeah? Or maybe, okay, you say, hey, heavyweight boxing, title fights in Vegas, right? Yeah, there's a lot of incentives. You can

Greg Voisen
put it out there needs to be in a way given headline billing doesn't you can't have these things somehow as a footnote in the chairman's notes, people know to see actually they do change their behavior. There are significant wars. Now, you can do this on a simple level. I'm not stressing. You got to go to go to that kind of extreme all the time, but you do need to find ways. I think so. If you're a leader, how you lead, and you don't necessarily by being the most forceful or the loudest, even by being actually the most experienced. I think it's about really how you give people a sense of being a part of something. I like the idea personal on the web, taking a meeting in the park. Why? Why not? You know, bring a rug somebody else. Maybe bring a couple of bottles of wine, or sit down on the big oak tree and your chat about strategy or numbers away. We meet apart for now, we go for a walk. You come back, but taking people out of their comfort zone. Nothing way complicated, not very difficult, you know, but you learn. It's the way that relation reply said before about eating people. When you eat with people, you learn a great deal about them. Walking with them as a group. Also quite instructive in the release. If you don't enjoy the session or the company, enjoy the fresh air. Enjoy the sound of birds song. Be aware of what's going on around you. All these are very small, complicated, but they're all within your grip, all within your reach. Well, look Howard, you've had influences across your life, mother, father, brother, sisters, employers, people, clients, who've influenced you. And you know, it's very apparent to me and the listeners that you are a very spontaneous, outgoing, courageous guy. You have a lot to say about this. What is it that you believe, or who was it that had the most influence on who Howard is today and why Howard is so passionate about going offline so that people can experience more of the richness of life, More of the wonderment of life, more of the spontaneity of life. How were you influenced, and why do you believe it was so important for you? It's a really hard question to answer. Greg, I can't point to any one figure who somehow towered above everybody else. That wasn't really the case for me. I think, in a way, what I did was I just over a period of time, I became more sensitive to how the world was changing around me. I would say that certainly I grew up in the ground, but people were all relatively normal. I can't say anything strange or different or challenging, sort of but I would say that I grew up in the environment where people were quite competitive, where they were also quite structured. I realized long time that I wasn't really made that way. That's probably why you're fine. Dinner invites all the sun break, and that's why, again, you see, I'm very, very open. I think you see also, another thing I would say is, if you have a positive energy, you tend to find you are attracted by other positive things. And I will tell you two quick stories. One, actually last week, very quickly. So I was on the subway in London, and I was the compartment was moderately busy and the door open, and literally, about 25 school children all got on with a teacher or two, I think, as well. And it happened there was a seat spare next to me, and this boy, probably 1112, years of age, maybe Indian, sits down. Rachel George Lee turns to me and says to me, who's your day been so far, my dear, special and graceful. What about you? He said, wonderful. You said, we just come back from a school trip to Shakespeare's Globe. I know for aware that the original Globe Theater where Shakespeare space was born in sort of 1600 was reconstructed about 50 odd years ago. It's an extraordinary thing because it's built in weeks and sciences. I've seen it and they've been I spent probably three minutes talking as a kid about what he's seen and what he was impressed by. Then they all got off, changed, different trade, but I just want myself that was a very uplifting moment when you hear all around you, every other child is blue to a device. Here's a little kid. I mean, 12 years of age, open, interested, curious. This is what I had to say. Responded in what I would call a COVID, he was present. Now, that's a might. It's a very small thing. I'll tell you something else, which, again, was slightly different. So two years ago, I was in Brazil with my partner, and whilst I was there, a friend of mine, a Brazilian friend in New York said, By the way, whilst you're a Rio de Janeiro, just hook up with a friend of mine. I think you'll get on quite well conversation. Anyway, we've changed WhatsApp messages. We agree to some beach bar, and I don't know anything about anything this old black do, shuffles in, sort of the dots and T shirt, sits down, and two hours fly by, fascinating conversation. I used to go, subsequently, for a shape I was looking for a barber, so I was going back to my girlfriend somewhere else. He said, I'll take you somewhere. It's 10 minutes away, walking the street. And I didn't know anyone else at this point about his personal career. Father, he was a lawyer. I said, I got you a lawyer? He said, Yes. I said, What's your specialty? He said to me, constitutional law. I thought, Wow, I'm paying people doing matrimonial or real estate, whatever, constitutional law. I said, were you a partner in a law firm? He said, I was the public prosecutor. So, okay, keep talking. Okay, we're walking the street. Just, you know, traffic going by. I learned Subsequently, he appointed a member of Supreme Court of Brazil in 2002 by Lula, while first city does, when he takes office, he presses charges against 42 losers, entourage, money laundering, racketeering, corruption, intimidation puzzled away. I mean, a formidable operator in 2013 this guy is pointed president the Supreme Court was distraughting about this, the first black president, Supreme Court ever in history, and the humblest, warmest guy never imagined a million years away, and we think of friends, but you were the kind of guy that asked continual questions. You know, as a podcaster, I have to be somebody who is always thinking of the questions right? And what I love about you is you continued to dig a little deeper. And he was open and a little deeper and a little deeper. And I think you know this old saying, Howard that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. So I'll repeat that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. You're a kind of person that comes across with compassion, understanding, empathy. Not everybody's that way, but I will compliment you on that, and that is what makes up the Alexa that makes offline work. And I would, I would venture to say to my listeners that, if you became a little more compassionate, more understanding, more empathetic, chose to ask more questions, most people would be receptive and open. And look, this book is does fall under communication, right? And the way you communicate people is to have that depth of understanding, so that you seek to understand, okay, and then be understood, but you seek to understand and then be understood. And so this is the essence of leave the phone at the door. I want to thank you for being on this podcast, because you've given us a wealth to think about. Like, it's like, okay, what could I do now to change my life? I'm going to tell people, go to the website, read this book. Okay. Howard is going to give us some links that will actually take you directly to the book site itself. And it's been a pleasure having you on it's been a pleasure taking this time to get to know you, to get to know more about the book. I loved your personal stories because those are what make it. Any final words for our listeners, I think that everybody who is listening to this podcast right now has the capacity to change their life a little. I'm not suggesting anything particularly complicated, radical, challenging, different, the notion, as I said before, of simply walking on the opposite side of the road to the station is not a very difficult right? Yeah, I think it's about in a way, as I said before, but yeah, go to a museum with a couple of friends. You know, one thing I do occasionally as well bookshops. Go to book shop. Sometimes I don't see anything in the bookshop actually want to buy. But the flip aside is I know that every time is a bare minimum of the pleasure of being surrounded by other people who love books. And that's enough. That's enough. And I think you use that, in a way, as a mess up a lot of offline stands for I think it'll hold you in good stead.

Greg Voisen
Well, leave your phone at the door for all my listeners. Here's the book Howard Lewis, who's been joining us from London. Howard, Namaste to you. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you for spending time with our listeners the Greg May I thank you as well for so graciously inviting me and sharing my story with obviously, your community, and if I can help in any way in the future yourself or indeed, the audience more generally, please, don't hesitate to get in touch. I will certainly reach out to you. Thanks.