Greg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth! From Williamsburg, Virginia, joining me today is Christopher Phillips. Christopher was on Inside Personal Growth for his book called Socrates Cafe, was that the title of the book, did I get that right or not?

Christopher Phillips
Talked about Socrates cafe and my book A Child at Heart.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, so we had an interview years ago for my listeners, and I've always been transformed by Christopher's work. And so I'm going to let the people know I just a tad bit about you. If you want to learn more about Christopher, you can go up to Amazon and there's a bio there. And is there a website for you, Christopher that you would direct people to?

Christopher Phillips
Oh, yes. christopherphillips.com Phillips with two L's or socratescafe.com.

Greg Voisen
So, you can go to his personal website, which is Christopher c-h-r-i-s-t-o-p-h-e-r-p-h-i-l-l-i-p-s.com. And you can learn more about him there. Well, he is they say the greatest living embodiment of the Socratic spirit in our Kratos, Strophic times. His global grassroots movement of the Socratic or cat or Socrates Cafe, and democracy cafes have transformed the lives of millions of people in every continent on the earth. And I would say definitely so his brilliant and wise books have touched the minds and souls of so many of us. And his soulful style and genuine compassion have enriched the lives that are so fortunate to have read his work. When this story isn't right, of the ugly and the beautiful in our turbulent age, the Socratic words work and deeds of my dearest brother, Christopher Phillips should loom large and that's from Dr. Cornel West, professor of philosophy and Christian practice. He travels the world holding dialogues with people of all walks of life. He believes that the process of dialogue and the space of human interaction are good for us and individuals and essential for us as a society. As goals just inspire curiosity and wonderment. It says wonder, but I call it wonderment, transformative sort one of the nature of self discovery, openness, and empathy. And that's what this book talks about. So why don't we dive right in, you know, your journey started on the island of is it Nate gross

Christopher Phillips
Nishimoto screes. It's one of the 12 Dota Kennys islands in the South IG and for my grandparents from emigrated not once, but twice through Ellis Island to the United States. And I brought things full circle by when I became a citizen of Greece, as well as the US and I try to go back at least once a year. I feel so

Greg Voisen
So how has that heritage that Greek upbringing and heritage influenced your philosophical pursuits and writing because you have quite an educational background and acquired a written writing background. And now you're going to be writing a new book about how it relates to the Financial Services kind of industry, which was a new twist to me because I knew nothing about you going down that direction. But how is that influenced is being born, they're being raised by parents, their grandparents really kind of influenced you to write what you've written about.

Christopher Phillips
That's a it's a really good question. You You mentioned my degrees you know, I have all these formal educational degrees. And you know, and I, I but everything about philosophy I really learned at the knees in many ways of my my Greek relatives, especially my Yaya KALLIOPI. Kawasaki, Lee boo.

Christopher Phillips
Yeah, who is you know, they left their little island to this day when it's not tourist season. It's tourist season right now. It's just like, it's the population is less than 1000. Greece has 1000s of islands. And they left nice heroes because Mussolini's minions had taken over the island. She could no longer teach Greek in the schools. And she wants she came to the United States and twice she didn't like and she went back and then her husband went, my namesake, Philip, that's my first name, went and got her and brought her back. But she then opened her own school of Greek language and culture in the Tampa Bay region of Florida through to it so and she taught me so much in a way I would have never learned in formal schooling. In a way it made it almost impossible for me me to ever acclimate myself to academic philosophy. All my degrees, my Bachelor's of women marry my three masters, and my PhD, they're not in philosophy proper. Instead, I took this renaissance approach, just like you take to all the amazing people, you interview with a sort of open curiosity. And so I use that to filter my Socratic thinking through because to my grandmother, these words that are used in academia or retail, you know, it's translated as excellence or virtue to her. They're not just words, they're spirits. They're strong strivings. So we're always trying to become more excellent, more virtuous, more open, more kind, more empathetic, more courageous. So so that's how I learned about these terms. And the more ossified, desiccated way that they're taught, never, never spoke to me, really. And so

Christopher Phillips
They say grandma.

Greg Voisen
And so it's interesting you say that, Christopher, because I have a book by Brian Johnson behind me here called era Tay. And if you know anything about Brian Johnson, you may or may not know him, I don't know. But he's basically taking the Socratic principles and methods and philosophy and put it into it's quite a volume. It's about 400, and something pages long. But it is a wonderful work. But we're here to talk about the soul.

Christopher Phillips
I want to meet this fellow kindred spirit.

Greg Voisen
Oh, he definitely. I'll introduce you to Brian Lee. And I'll put you two guys together. Because you know, he would be somebody for years now I want you to hold up the book, The soul of goodness book, which I know is right behind you. Because we're here to talk about this book in a way that people can understand not only why they'd want to buy a copy, but the reality is so that they can get an idea of what's in it. So you explore transforming hurt and betrayal into love and compassion. And it happens in everybody's life, I'd say hurt betrayal. Can you share a personal experience that in style inspired you to write about that in the book because I am reflecting on he was never on the show. But I'm I'm drawing a blank the hero's journey. Okay. And I'm saying Joseph Campbell, was somebody who, you know, when we go on this journey out in life, like you have, like I have, these things are about bound to happen, things good and bad will happen to us. And you write about being able to transform this and turn it into love and compassion. And I want to know what your take is on that.

Christopher Phillips
Well, you know, there's degrees of law, there's degrees of betrayal, there's degrees of hurt. This was the first book I wrote that I had never planned to write, but that I had to after the death of my father, Alex or Alexion drugs Phillips, his own father died when he was just seven years old. Soon after they emigrated to the US and he became man of the family. He had taught himself to play piano by ear like boogie woogie, music and dance halls and taverns seven, eight years old, delivered groceries, Hawk newspapers on the street corner, he had this Never Say Die spirit. He became he ultimately became this chief executive for the Department of the Navy rose way up, oversaw the construction electrical systems in the nuclear aircraft carrier fleet in Newport News, Virginia. And so it was it was a really painful arduous loss. When those were with my dad at the end. Never even let me know that he had died. By the time I got there, and other honest people got there, most of his belongings had been removed. Careful saver and planner, my dad sold mutual funds, America funds, when he was working as studying to be a ship designer. In his 20s he was always an astute investor saver planner. But everything poof disappeared. And so and then there were so many ugly acts is still unfold to this day.

Greg Voisen
So your book, in essence, this betrayal is a betrayal that was was kind of released, or I should say, brought upon by something that happened with your father and so on. And I and I heard that at the beginning of our discussion as well. And I want to just acknowledge that and say that I'm sorry that happened. But if you can help others heal as a result of this because your experience is not uncommon. I've heard this more than

Christopher Phillips
I mean, look at the World News Today. And so many families are suffering unspeakable loss, their lives shattered forever. So many people die of preventable illness 10s and 10s and 10s of millions are caught in the middle of conflicts not of their creation. They're just want to be able to raise their family, educate their families, protect their families, when you can't do that when you can't protect your loved ones. It's got to be the most tragic sense of hurt, and you feel that you betrayed them. And that's how I sort of feel with my father. The point is, okay, for those of us who are lucky enough to survive the slings and arrows were still standing. If you can withstand, you know, you're being just all these acts or you're being buffeted backpedaling. What can you do my background, says a philosopher, I'm not a psychologist, what kinds of insights can I offer those who are suffering any type of reversal, setback loss? Because there's many types of grieving? What can we do to channel those things from a philosophical standpoint, to move forward and to carry those on our shoulders who we've lost in ways that aren't heavy, but are light that would have them you know, cheering us on and rootedness someone, regardless of our religious beliefs or spiritual beliefs. So my teachings from my yoga, my my vast readings in my 28 years worth of Socrates cafes around the world, sort of, were the cauldron that tested me to see what I had to bring to this, and, and how not only I could survive, all the while trying to keep my family safe. have very young family, a 10 year old and 17 year old I did everything late in life. But But what spirits can we harness that can help us move forward in ways that also can serve as models and guides for other people who are going through other kinds of loss. But nonetheless, we're all now part of that family of survivors of loss, whatever that may happen to be, and so I write about the constellation of Socratic spirits, that, again, these are things that I learned starting when I was around, round five years old. You know, my Yeah, didn't you know, the big famous phrase of Socrates is the examined, unexamined life is not worth living. But given what happened to him, what he was really saying was the examined life is worth dying for, you know, put it all out there, you leave nothing, you just give everything you got. You never know when your mortal moments going to end. And so you just leave it all out there. And so, Yaya taught me that there's this constellation of spirits, they're not these rigid definitions that people talk about, you know, Al demonia, sofr sign, our Damon our inner voice, they're all weave weave together interlaced inner Stice, so that we can achieve a kind of wisdom that always imbued is imbued with empathy. You know, there,

Greg Voisen
how have the I mean, you, you say this is a deep moral exploration, but I want to know, you know, arity, and software sign, you say these ancient Greek philosophies gods have influenced your views. And I want to know how they influenced it in on modern challenges? Because then, I mean, we got we're going back 1000s of years here, right? The reality is, we're living in 2024. Be it in my estimation, I think some of the most exciting times that in my time on this planet that we're being lived in, although challenging to see the degree, but also exciting, because we all have a lot of opportunity from it. How do you take a look at that, what is your philosophical viewpoint on that? And how do we take this as you say it in the soul, good, moral expert exploration.

Christopher Phillips
I mean, I think every action should be imbued with with a moral compass, ethical compass. I tried to take a long view. My actions are not meant to just be one set of pack this generation or even five generations, but I try to think 100 generations hence 500 generations hence, you know, we're on the cusp, as you said, of so many things. So these are times of great darkness in times of extraordinary light. We have choices to make, and we each can set an example I truly believe and that's why I started Socrates cafe in 1996 was it's so easy to point the finger at others of politicians for polarization, or whatever. But we have to look at ourselves and say, what are those of us who are privileged enough to be in a position to do so? What can we do to be some of the change that we can say recognizing that none of us has a cure all that there's many complementary approaches to everything that we do? I mean, I feel like you're a total kindred spirit, for instance. So what there's so many of us fighting the good fight, in the case, since my father's death. I mean, I started a new project called Cafe for Shakespeare. That'll be another book that I'll have. It takes some of the Cornel West, who wrote the foreword to solar goodness said, you know, Chris, you have a Shakespearean soul. And I hadn't shared with him anything that had happened yet about about my father's tragic loss. And so I took some of Shakespeare's key questions from plays, that were posed by his characters, and we're journeying around the world asking those two people who also participate typically in Socrates cafe, I became an investment advisor representative for for Martin capital.com. Because it was just a serendipity. When he became a member of our nonprofit board, we became friends, I told him about what my dad did. And that initially, after graduated from where remarry I was going to get my MBA at the University of Virginia, and also in fall in his footsteps in the investment area. But I, I decided to become a writer instead. And I checked that for $50 a week job in Maine. But so, you know, investing with a social conscience, I specialize in environmental social governance, investing, socially responsible impact investing. And so you and I are kindred in that too.

Greg Voisen
Impact investing, I think is impact investing. And then listeners if they asked yet, and the gentleman resides, I think back east someplace, is a new PBS series. I think it's six part series, called a brief history, a brief, something of a brief look at the future. And I think when you really see this, and the reason I bring this up is because the documentary has done so fantastic. I encourage everyone to go see it. Now, you said you weren't looking to write this book. And I know that you weren't. This came as a result of you're dealing with the grief and loss as a result of your dad's passing. And really, all the other extenuating circumstances which you had have explained a little bit about how has this changed? Or has it your philosophical outlook, and direction, kind of with relation because there's, it sounds like there's a real unique opportunity here, for you to grow, and a unique opportunity for you to relay this lesson to many of my listeners about how to bring more goodness in their life, the soul of goodness, more compassion, more love. Because the first thing that happens that I think happens, and I've had it happen to me, so I'll just say this is when you're hurt and betrayed. There's this whole vengeance thing that comes up, right? Like, I want to get. I want to have vengeance on this person, whoever did this to me. Because it isn't right. It wasn't morally right. It wasn't ethically right. There wasn't anything write about it. Speak about that, if you would.

Christopher Phillips
Yes, that's a beautiful way of putting things because, you know, so much of my guidance, again, comes from my father's example. You know, he never felt sorry for himself when his father died when he was just seven years old. You never know, whoa, was me. He had this Never Say Die spirit. And so that last stone with me and imprinted with me. And so, ultimately, over time and took some, it's still every day, every day is still a challenge. No, Robert, Dr. Robert Coles, who was a dear friend who supported my work, who wrote the Children in Crisis series, you know, he points out that every day, you know, people are suffering so much and you don't even know it. You know, so many people who take their lives you go, I didn't even know he was going through something like that. So people hide it so well. One person who has been through tragedy said to me, just imagine how the person who was with your father just imagine how empty and hollow that person is, you know, to do those things. And it resonated with me because it's like, you know, I have to become more Chris Phillips than ever. This is the real test. And so I did I started channeling these you know, now I recently became A philosopher in residence for the humanity in deep space program that sets humanity in deep space.com. So, you know, again, there's there's many of the conflicts that not good ones in the US and elsewhere around the world are our platforms for getting us to steer our gaze farther afield more quickly than we otherwise might have anticipate? Well,

Greg Voisen
I also think that you know, this whole threat, you talked about democracy cafes, people are perceiving much of what's going on as a threat to democracy. And and I guess this is, you know, look, Socrates Cafe is about talking about things just like what you and I are talking about a year? How is how is this democracy Cafe kind of contributed to the theme of your book? They're the themes of your books, because, yes, that this is a fundamental. I'm going to just call it right, that everybody should have in this world, which is democracy, which doesn't exist. But that's in a perfect, utopian, utopian world. Do you believe in this country speaking with most of our listeners are here in North America? We do have them worldwide. But what what would you like to say about this democracy cafe?

Christopher Phillips
Well, it's been interesting, because in the last two years, there's been a level of polarization that almost makes me nostalgic for the polarization that existed in 96. When I started this, it's, it's, again, it's time for each of us to stand up and be counted more than ever, you know, if we want freedom of expression for ourselves, maybe we want and also for those whose views we find sometimes repugnant. Maybe it behooves us more than ever to become more careful, empathic listeners, you know, if somebody says a comment, political perspective that touches pushes a button, instead of just pushing back and getting a knock down, drag up, find out why they're coming from where they're coming from, you know, why do you think that? What's your story? I mean, to me, everything's about story. And so let's just learn from each other. Just, you know, so many people are used to pushing your buttons, if you actually just say, Well, why do you think that and they see that it's can be transformative for you and that person, because suddenly you're stepped out of the argument in a frame and you're more into the meditative storytelling narrative frame. And I've found again, and again, that people who come quite often to vent and yell and scream as soon as we step back and genuinely ask them a question out of heartfelt curiosity, why do you hold this view? Where'd you get it from?

Greg Voisen
I think I think one of those things is we should seek to understand amasty Understood and be understood. Right. So in other words, I mean, that that's an old statement. But the point is, is that there is a lot to that we're don't seek to understand. Because we've created this divisiveness as a result of a belief that's so strong that runs so strong in us that we exist opposing viewpoint not Oh, okay. I want to speak for the disenfranchised white male in the world, who is feeling that Donald Trump is the Savior and is going to vote for them? As a result, I can say what the hell I want on this show. It's my show. So that's the point. That's what I'm saying is that the my are we seeking to understand, quote, and it's a lot of people, but I'm going to use this, this pair for the disenfranchised white male. And, you know, it is interesting, because there isn't a lot of diversity.

Christopher Phillips
I mean, one of the things that I praised my professors at the College of William and Mary for was that they nudged just out of our comfort zones. You know, they didn't care in the slightest if we agree or disagree with them, what they cared about was that we supported our points of view, well, that we brought a lot of things to the table. And so that, you know, that's why I acknowledged them in my books, because they they modeled what I hope to be, you know, it's one thing to be able to get your point of view across, but it's another thing if you really not just allow somebody to have their say, but really seek to open yourself up to why people come at things from such a different slant and perspective than you. At the end of the day. I mean, democracy can also be about argument. It has to be about debate. You win the day, you lose the day, you dust yourself off and you get back in there, and you don't hate the person who's you know, you're opposed to

Greg Voisen
the I know that Christopher We're in. There is this PBS is doing it again, they're bringing opposing views into a room. And then interviewing, they're letting the two groups talk. Now you wouldn't you could call this the democracy Cafe really if you wanted to. And I forget what the title of this thing is. But it's it is surprising the way people shift and their differences in belief as a result of engaging in this dialogue that's occurring inside these rooms that are actually being videoed, I forgot. It's called the American something or another. You probably know and I'm sure you've run across it. But it this gentleman who started this on PBS, is perpetuating it. Through these almost I'm going to call them democracy cafes, it's like, okay, here we go. You know. And when you watch the videos back, it's really something what happens at the end, when people walk away?

Christopher Phillips
You know, in the kinds of 10s of 1000s of dialogues I've held more much more often than not people who are sure that they're on polar opposites. They discover uncommon common ground,

Greg Voisen
and common common ground. I like that in the

Christopher Phillips
theological pursuit of not just saying what you already know that you think but by giving birth, what we call the my unik, two views that you didn't even know you had that you harbored within. And within there's these wild moments, that's the reason I'm still so jazzed about holding Socrates cafes, constitution, cafes, my newest cafe for Shakespeare, because I learned so much about myself. And I asked, you know, I go into maximum security prisons, you know, I asked myself, you know, just for a move here and a move there might have been me. You know, I leave with greater humility, I leave with a greater sense of courage. You know, I have to sign forms. Sometimes I go into prison saying, If I'm held hostage, they don't have to necessarily negotiate for my release. I'm sure, there's some things but the whole idea to me on a Socratic journey, which is in the shape of a question mark, is, is, is discovering the discovery of the surprise in the novel. So for instance, we might we might talk about whether the United States troops should be in Afghanistan. And so and so people get in as loggerheads knockout drag out, back and forth. And then I'll say, Well, what is the just war, and they step back Whoa. Because then they have to articulate the philosophy of what adjust war is. And though they may have diametrically opposite examples of what constitutes just war, they may have the remarkably similar, if not identical philosophy behind what that is, so that that discovery of uncommon common ground, giving ourselves the time and space to learn the art of frame of artfully framed questions, and listening, listening with all of our being at a time and climb when colleges offer classes on rhetoric, debate, forensics, persuasion, what about a dedicated class just on the art and science and science of listening, because I think what the world needs now is a world of more empathic, careful, listeners. So we're a chance to share our stories. Yeah.

Greg Voisen
Compassionate, listening to you know, it's compassionate aid, you could call it empathic. Yeah, I think certain people can do that. But I think, just listen, to listen, and do it with compassion and an open heart. The other thing is this book that we're speaking about here, that the soul of goodness, now I want to ask, I'm going to put a compound question together, because I seem to be good at that. What do you want the readers to take away after they've read this book? If there was two or three key points that you want to make? And then what is the legacy that you because of, you know, constitutional cafe, Socrates, cafe, democracy cafe, what are you want to leave behind? If I wrote your epitaph tomorrow?

Christopher Phillips
Wow. Well, anybody who is suffering some sort of darkness in their lungs, grief loss, despair, betrayal of any sort, I believe that they can come to my book and discover among otherwise books that this is a very unique approach to harnessing forms of types of spirits that I share with them that I learned at the feet of my my grandmother, my great grandmother that will help them on their journey. I want them to know that as arduous as it is, there is light on the other side of the tunnel. You and one of the ways that you can discover just to take on to discover for yourself, what can I do in my immortal moment? What can I do? That's my way of not just saying I'm here, but that can make a difference with others as well because everybody has a gift to offer. I believe that fervently many people come to Socrates cafes over the years, that's been their Springboard as they ask themselves, who am I and more forward looking? Who can I still be to, to taking on new projects and new initiatives to becoming more immersed in the civic world? And it's because you have to have this hope that you know this, this is just the beginning. Any experience can be the springboard for learning for growing. And I don't mean that in a pollyannish way, there's some we have to struggle through many things. But that to feel that sense of kindred spirits witness with others, including with me, if they go to our my Christopher phillips.com site, there's it or Socrates cafe.com there's a drop down page where they can actually get a guide on what the Socratic spirits are that I'm talking about, that hopefully will also want them to really dive into the pages of soul of goodness, I think he's

Greg Voisen
got on there you pardon me, but you do have a link to the book. So people can buy that at Amazon and so on. You've got booking engagements, which is another place you've got some odd thing 10 Post posts that you've done and features and essays. So I want to encourage my listeners because this book is obviously the newest one. But he's got a child at heart constitution Cafe Socrates and loves six questions for of Socrates, which is the one that you and I we actually did Socrates cafe, a fresh taste of philosophy. And I know are these just for my listeners are your cafes still meeting all over the country, and they there are there,

Christopher Phillips
it they're expanding more than ever, which is so moving, and humbling. There's over 500 groups, if people will just write to us by going to our website and emails, right there, any of these sites, and then we can set them up with the coordinator, and specific parts of the globe. Its burgeoning. Now, in the Middle East, my birth, six of my books just recently came out in Arabic, that come out in Romanian. It's it's burgeoning more than ever, that I just got this beautiful post when my book Socrates cafe was published in in Poland, where there's, there's a mix of democracy, cafes, and Socrates cafes. I want to stress though, that I probably learned more from children than anybody else. So I have 12 children's books, most of them published, at least in English and Spanish, but but a number of them also published in Greek and Japan, and Japanese and Arabic, and other language. But children are my best models for learning how to think in not just in black and white and gray, but to think in the dazzling array of colors. They keep me honest in a way that no one else does. And so I seek out children and youth to engage with look at look at these kids in Montana, who got the judge to issue this ruling about climate change. They wanted to see in the world they are about and shakers, that so my books reflect that, especially probably worlds of difference in philosophers club. And once a spring from that,

Greg Voisen
well, you have a YouTube video out there that I want to direct and we'll put a link in our blog to that it's called A World Without fences. How Socrates cafes connects us. Dr. Christopher Phillips explores how Socrates dialogue can be used as a tool to bridge divide, bridge to tool to bridge divide, and have meaningful discussions. I'm gonna put a link to that in our blog. Christopher, you know, we'll certainly do everything we can to support you. I appreciate you bringing on we'll hold the book up again for

Christopher Phillips
in terms of in terms of legacy, I feel like even if I once I Stelter started my first Socrates Cafe group, it was like, Okay, if I get hit by a truck tomorrow, it's okay because I found my thing, you know, spoke to others and now that they'll, they'll carry the torch. So I just want to feel like you know, if somebody wrote something was, Chris generally TRIED TO BE THE CHANGE personally that he wanted to To reflect in the world at large,

Greg Voisen
well, that would be on your epitaph, which I asked you as part of that question. So you got it in there. And I appreciate you doing that, Christopher. And I appreciate your time today that you gave the listeners and myself to not only learn more about what happened with your father, but how you use that as a learning tool to then write a book, and help so many other people that have dealt with betrayal and hurt. And I think the the examples that you use in the book for all my listeners, is a great way for you to learn how to deal with this better, however you choose to learn with it, it's your choice, but the only way to heal from it is through compassion and understanding. So, kudos to you. I want to thank you again, for another great book, another opportunity for us to speak don't let's not wait so long in between podcasts. Let's do another one. Because I think this could be a good topic to speak about. And thank you for going into those prisons and doing what you're doing as well. I know another gentleman I'm gonna hook you up with, it's doing the same thing. And so Namaste, to you. Kudos to you. Thank you for so much.

Christopher Phillips
It's always an honor to have you on your program. Your curiosity and openness is is a real example for me. I just bought a book because of you called Mind magic.

Greg Voisen
Oh, yeah. Dr. Yachty? I'll introduce you to him. Yes, I'll make an introduction. Yes.

Christopher Phillips
But you You really are a touchstone for me, and I'm very grateful to you. Well,

Greg Voisen
likewise, as well, it was way too long for me to make the connection to get back to you. But I appreciate it. And I all the success in the world to you at Martin financial and doing what you're doing with what I'm gonna call socially responsible investing. That is really, really the key to changing our world. And the more people that invest in into it, the better off we're all going to be and reach out to Christopher, if you want on it through his website, if you're interested in learning more about socially responsible investing, and he certainly could help you with that as well until,

Christopher Phillips
yes, we Martin capital.com is our website and I'm one of the people on that list. You can go to my my direct email right there. I just had another client this week, which was really beautiful. People trust me.

Greg Voisen
Well, they should, they should

Christopher Phillips
Yes, but they know that they're in good hands. And so that ties in with everything, just about what can I do during my immortal moment to leave a bit more wood on the woodpile and make sure that we're all more cognizant of the losses and struggles and challenges of everyone else. And then we are you

Greg Voisen
You are the soul. You are the soul of goodness. So yeah, just you I mean, look, the title of the book, really is who you are. So thank you. Thank you again for being on the show. Thanks a bunch.

Christopher Phillips
It means so much to me.