Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. Joining us from Wisconsin on the other end of the line, I see he's taking a deep breath, that's because he's a mindfulness and meditation guru. We've got Ben Katt on the phone, and online on video on Zoom. Talking with us today about his new book, The Way Home: Discovering the Hero's Journey to Wholeness at Midlife. Ben, how are you today?

Ben Katt
I'm great, Greg, thanks for having me. We have a sunny day in Wisconsin, it's starting to warm up. I know you're a little you're always ahead of us, because you live, you know, out west in California. But yeah, we're welcoming the beautiful weather right now.

Greg Voisen
Well, this is a brand-new St. Martin's essentials book, and I just wanna let my listeners know, seriously, go out and get a copy of this, this can be life changing for you. He came to me as a contact through Chip Conley. And for those of you know, we recently did an interview with Chip about his book on midlife and his foundation that he has, he has one in Mexico. And I think the other one is in Santa Fe, New Mexico, where he's doing this work. And he knows Ben. And really, the two of them work together. So, I want to say congrats, my friend on your new book. First off, let me let the listeners know a bit about you. He's been helping period, people experience deep transformation and access lives of greater joy, compassion and purpose for the past 20 years. His first book, this is it. The way home that just came out in February is a guidebook and memoir about the inner journey we all must embark on in order to live our fullest life. He writes regularly about identity, purpose, creativity, and belonging in his still newsletter on sub stack. Go check that out, we're gonna give you a link. It's been Benjamin, I'm sorry, benjaminkatt.com. That's where you're gonna want to go. He is a certified advanced meditation teacher with the one giant mind and holds a Master of Divinity degree and was an ordained minister for over a decade previously led the on being projects work in supporting religious and spiritual leaders in the work of social healing. He's a perpetual student of religious, spiritual and cultural wisdom, and an expert on adapting ancient personal development practices for modern contexts in order to help people wake up to who they are, and why they're here. He lives in, as we said, Milwaukee, Wisconsin with his three children, the bunny and his wife, and they like to actually run the trails. They do karaoke and volunteer work for hospice. Well, that's a great bio, it just kind of lets people know who you are, and why you're here. Because, look, your purpose in life is a big thing for you. And I know you're now on embarking on working with prisons and the prisoners. You just mentioned that to me last time. And congrats for that. Because that is can be challenging work. But you open this book with this poignant phrase, wife seems to be moving along just fine when all of a sudden, you receive a summons to another way. And I think you have to be awake to realize that the summons was there. You have to be aware that the summons was there, whether it's a sign or assemble or whatever it is that you do, can you share a personal moment that signified this call to adventure for you?

Ben Katt
Yeah, for sure. So I was living in Seattle at the time where I lived actually for 14 years all my kids were born there. And I one morning I was out for a run in the rain ran across around this little lake called greenlink If anyone's familiar with the area, and I was charging back up the hill towards My House had about 10 blocks to go usually I'd turn the corner at Sprint home and you know, finish with this sort of intense that workout and get going about my day and all the important things I had to do. But there's one particular day I got to the top of the hill and I just stopped dead in my tracks and pulled my earbuds out and it's this voice welled up inside me and the voice said if you don't have your heart, you have nothing if you don't have your heart you have nothing and you know I always like to say like you'll we can we can debate about what's that God or an inner voice or something weird I hit the night before but in reality is like I knew right away that this was a wake up call. So to your point. Yes, you need to be aware I think even just being a little bit aware, then you'll notice, right? So it really, and the more you try to pay attention, the more likely to you're going to hear this invitation or call to adventure. But for me, initially, that meant, you know, I was aware that I was burned out. But as I started to peel back the layers, I realized that really, this was an invitation to move on from my old operating patterns, which was this obsession with achievement, and, you know, perfectionism and trying to please other people, I had started 3d, scrappy, nonprofit org, and my wife and I had three kids like all in very short time, and she was in grad school. So it's a really big season of life, and all on the surface was very good. But as that day revealed, to me, it got my attention was saying, like, hey, you know, you're, you're disconnected from that deeper, truer part of yourself.

Greg Voisen
Well, there is, you know, in this western world, versus the Eastern philosophies and traditions where a lot of meditation practices come from this drive for achievement. And I remember interviewing, not that long ago, Marshall Goldsmith, and he is the coach to some of the highest achievers in the world. And he said, it didn't seem to matter to them when it never turned off. You know, when is enough, when you know, I've built three $2 billion businesses, I have houses all over the country, I've got whatever it might mountain monies, Buccos money in my bank account, it never conceived of them to say, Hey, maybe I could slow down and I could do something differently, you know. And he got them to look at that way. And in your journey, you talk about befriending the darkness as a crucial phase of this. I just recently got a text from a friend. And this is very appropriate, somebody that was doing nonprofit work. And I was working with him. And he went back to Ohio to see his mom and his sister. And this guy was like giving clothes to the homeless out of the back of his truck, and I would bring the sleeping bags or whatever. And he says, I have some bad news, Ken died, Ken died. Ken was that old? Now he went home, he turned his car on in his mom's garage, and he fixated himself. Now you would never see this endless guy. Because he was doing all this nonprofit work. You seem very jovial. And underneath that the darkness, you know, the darkness of this, how did you facing the darkness, change your understanding of personal and collective grief? Because Ken must know going through a lot of grief.

Ben Katt
Yeah, you know, I want to pick up on something there that I think is important to accent. My discovery what you know, I sort of thought that because I was in quote unquote, the helping professions. So as a former pastor, I ran a couple of other nonprofits that were helping people dealing with homelessness, mental illness, were caught up in the sex trade, we're dealing with addiction, all those things. So it's really good, quote, unquote, virtuous work. And the thing I had fooled myself into thinking was that I was sort of immune or outside of our culture's game of, you know, doing better, more faster, stronger, you know, the achievement orientation. But the thing was, I was playing that same game, I was just doing it in my own way, striving. And so that's really something, this isn't a statement about Ken's situation. But it's very common for those of us who are in the helping professions to be striving to be working out of some sense of self deficiency, or loss, or lack of belonging, or, you know, sort of inner groundedness. And that was the case for me. And so, um, you know, or this, this desire to be the savior of everyone else, all these things, right? Or it's all these people

Greg Voisen
Right now, that were leads, we always wonder, well, why are people like because I have my own nonprofit, and I go out and help the homeless. And it's like, so why where did this big thing come in, in my personality that I needed to please people, there are so many people that are so hard and gruff, and I call them reds, their personalities are reds, but mine certainly is not that. And I my own individual, and God speaks to me in different ways. And I think we all express ourselves that way. But I think in understanding our own darkness in our own grief along this journey, is really interesting one, and you have this mythical pattern of living, balling rising is the central narrative to your book. How do you see that this pattern plays out in everyday life for people who aren't necessarily on like, what you call here, this wilderness quest, right? Because it's one thing to go out and, you know, hike and be involved and all that but they're not in this wilderness quest. Yeah,

Ben Katt
you know, you're laughing as you're probably thinking of some of the stories in the book. So I have these encounters with the natural world which were really powerful. And really the big thread in the back half of the book is this wilderness quest or which was modeled after the indigenous practice of a vision quest that included a four day solo fasting experience. But I talked about in the book as a capstone experience to the journey I was already on. And so I'll just say what that means to me for a second one was as like a capstone, you know, like actually the, the, to the megalithic tomb like this thing that was marking my death to a previous version of myself. But the other meaning of Capstone had to do with it was as if I had, I was graduating or completing a course, which then begins again, but I was finishing this life journey course that I was on this quest. So the reason I bring that up is to say, you don't have to go out into the wild to, quote unquote, go find yourself or go on this hero's journey to wholeness. You don't have to Eat, Pray, Love your way around the world. As I think culturally, we love to talk about that, like, you got to go leave everything. For me, the experience was, and this is really a big part of who I'm writing to. It's everyday people who have, again, on the surface of their life so much just it looks great, and they're happy and smiling in their annual holiday card. And work is relatively fulfilling. And you know, they're standing in silence with their kids soccer games, like all these things. That is to say that you just is like, how do you pay attention to the fact that maybe you are being asked to leave this situation, which you're just kind of maintaining, you've outgrown it, it's expired, there's some part of yourself that is not allowed to come forth, as long as you are staying in that, that sort of season or state of your life. So paying attention to the messages that come your way, the invitations, and they do always come to leave the familiar. And then guess what happens not that you find yourself immediately you end up wandering in the wild, or befriending the darkness you you go through that dark night of the soul, it's the falling into the unknown. And it's on the other side of all that which can be a long, and is a long, grueling experience is that rising to wholeness, but for me, I say it's all about finding those small spaces in your life beginning small, but making space to listen to your life practices like journaling, yoga, walking in nature, talking to a spiritual director, or trusted friend, there's a whole host of things that can help us in the middle of our quote, unquote, ordinary lives. Go on what really is this epic inner journey, you don't have to go far, you don't have to go hiking deep into the desert or into the jungle or anything like that?

Greg Voisen
Well, one of the things that I'm very well aware of that are the listeners out there hearing what you just said, appreciate about what you said, on the flip side of the coin is the fear to actually take the step. And the main thing that holds everybody back be is, oh, I've got to change something. And something drastically is going to change. And I'm afraid I might lose something in the process of changing something. And it's something whether I created it, whether it's a marriage, or it's a business, or it's a what a something, right. It's like, okay, I birthed this thing. I've been living this thing. And now I'm being asked or called to give it up. Now, Joseph Campbell's work and the hero's journey is really interesting when you look at it, and the person leaves home base and goes around in the stories that have been told over and over again, through the Disney characters, about the hero's journey, because we all we all understand that. But in the end, there are players out there that we need to realize they're going to help us. And I think that's the thing, this isn't about going alone. And you know, you tell this story in the book about the saguaro cactus in the Arizona desert was both surreal and deeply moving. Could you encounter while this wasn't a person, but can you elaborate on this encounter, and out influence your perspective on the interconnectedness of all beings? Because, you know, one of the things on a spiritual journey is this epiphany, you have at some point, like you're one with all you know, you're not separate from the plant, the deer, the flower, the stream, the whatever, and I think many people go through life Ben. So you had this moving experience with this saguaro cactus in the Arizona desert, it was both surreal and deeply moving. Could you speak with our listeners about how this encounter influenced your perspective on this interconnectedness of all beings? Because many of us have never had that fight and level of experience where we feel interconnected with the trees and the birds and the stream and whatever. But you did have it? Yeah.

Ben Katt
So one of the things that I think it's important for everyone to know is that and Joseph Campbell hits on this when he talks about the hero's journey is that as soon as you say yes, as soon as you answer the call, as you, you take that first step, what inevitably happens is that help will arrive. And so it might, from your current vantage point be like, Well, where am I going to get help? Like, how am I going to know what to do next? The thing is, and this is a quote, I believe, from frozen to speaking of Disney. It's just it's like, do the next right thing. Take the next right step. Like that's what you need to do. And help will be there to company whether it's a spiritual director, or Yes, I as I talked about, I think the wild will come and meet you whether it's in your dreams or actually in nature. And for me, one of the most transformative experiences was this encounter with a Samar Oh, cactus. And I won't get into the whole story, but essentially, let's just say it invited me into this conversation and wanted to share it story with me. And this was like on this unremarkable hill in the middle of

Greg Voisen
nowhere, and I you you weren't doing drugs either.

Ben Katt
No, no, no, no psychedelics involved at all? Yes, that's a great question. I always kind of want to clarify that so nothing about it. Definitely. There's a to speak about kind of engaging nature that way. It's important to to take on sort of playful myths and imagination, meaning and openness. Let aside your rigid kind of ideas on how things do or don't work Am I playfully like to say and hopefully it doesn't offend people from certain religious traditions of which, by the way, as a former ordained minister, but I'm like, Look, there's a story of Moses encountering God in a burning bush. So like, what's too different than, than me kind of having this conversation with a cactus? Why can't we we also see that these mystical experiences are also for us today. So but anyway, what ends up showing me is how it's been, it was literally stabbed, there was a stake through it, and it's probably 100 year old cactus judging by the size. And then it's like telling me to keep looking and actually have these right over my shoulder. I'm sitting in my office here, but having these bullet shells, they directed me to four different bullet shells, I realize this thing has been shot like a ton of times, by different, you know, different get a different caliber bullets, different guns. And I'm thinking, yes, there's this thing called Cactus plugging it is the practice of Ghana, going out in the desert, and maybe drinking beers on like shooting cacti. But this heaviness hit me in this moment. Because here I was, in this dark season on my life, this season of confusion, loss, and this stranger than from myself trying to find my way home, and dealing with all my own grief about my own story. And is in that moment, I'm seeing that, you know, I'll say the grief of this, this cactus. And I felt like I was suddenly swept up into the grief of that cactus, on whom we're on which a whole host of individuals who were dealing with some level of pain or anger, even if it was, quote, unquote, in the name of recreation, we're taking out there on hostility and pain on this cactus. And so it was as if I was, you know, united with the pain and the grief of the universe, that the Christian tradition as in this letter Romans written by Paul, it says something like, the entire creation groans, like with the birthing pains, like it's groaning and eager expectation for something new something whole, something, you know, for the way of love to, to rule on I think that's really what I felt in that moment, I realized, well, my whole journey, you know, I It wasn't just about me, working on my own stuff. And finding myself, in fact, to find my way back home to myself, was to find my fundamental belonging to everyone and everything.

Greg Voisen
Well, like you, you point out an important element, anybody who is aware at all, here's Mother Earth crying out, because of what's going on in our environment with the melting ice caps and the fires and just the raging tornadoes we're having now, you know, just all of this stuff seems to have been very fighted. And very accelerated as a result of, I think, a consciousness level, which we've attained as a world, which is truly vibrating into the core essence of everything around our globe right now. Now, this is a great time for a change. And it's also a time for letting go. And letting go is something that features prominently in your work. And I know many people have talked about this, oh, well just let go of it. You know, and it's not that easy for people to do. But how would you advise somebody who's struggling to release their grip on some outdated version of their life? Let go and be born new again. I don't want people who are, you know, Jewish, or Muslim or whatever, listen to this podcast think, well, I'm this Christian guy, because I'm not I was born into a Jewish family. And I'm a member of self realization fellowship. Parma, Honza Yogananda. So the reality is, is people know that what I'm saying is being born new again, as a new version of yourself. Yeah, right. Yep. You good in the world, versus doing more harm in the world. I mean, the Dalai Lama says the only way we're going to solve this problem is through more compassion, compassion and understanding of everybody and ourselves. Yet

Ben Katt
the rebirth the individual rebirth of the rebirth of all things like you're saying, it doesn't belong to one particular tradition. It's not about just like a certain belief set or anything, it's about awakening to your who you really are, to your full potential to who we really are, and who and why we're here. And, you know, letting go is the is perhaps the most critical practice in order for that, you know, rebirth to happen for that newness to emerge. The difficult thing is when there's something we need to let go of, and now anyone here who's listening, watching can can realize this, like we don't always know what it is. Right? It takes some time, we might not realize that something is outdated that something's expired. You know, we haven't noticed it yet. Part of that is because we're sort of suppressing our awareness. We're not making space we're getting we're, we're like, just going through the motions of life, right? We're not slowing down to here. But what I, what I want to say is, there's kind of a hard answer to that. And then there's the soft one the heart is, look, the longer you hold on and refuse to let go, the harder it's going to get. And I think that's one of the difficult things for us to understand as human beings collectively, right now is we are stubbornly resisting. All the letting go that like the ways that we need to, you know, we need to change our ways, especially thinking of climate and things like that, we're stubbornly refusing to make the changes at the pace that we probably should be. And so what's going to happen is, there's going to be an accelerating realization of like, oh, no, and we're gonna get really desperate, and then the letting go is gonna happen, and some new creativity and possibilities are gonna come out of it, but there'll be a lot of suffering, like, there's be suffering and pain and difficulty. And that's reality for for individuals to, you want to hold on to something or to keep trying to make it work. Keep going back to that one way, eventually, the universe is getting, or God's gonna get your attention. And your because because it's things expired, you know, say, say it's, let's treat it like not this is a poor example, because we're just talking about the environment, but you need an oil change in your car, you continue to refuse the basic maintenance of something you you don't, you know, you keep stubbornly continuing with your own pattern, well, that thing's gonna break down. So the same is true for your expired version of your life. Now, the softer side of it. And this is really important. This is like the, the former the inner pastor and me it is to say, look like be patient with yourself. Be patient, like the fact that you're gonna have a subtle awareness that there's something you need to let go of, that's huge. So just welcome that, celebrate that Be patient. Now, also be curious, lean into it, reflect on it, maybe there's trusted people, you can start to talk about it, right? So where can you find help, so that you have others holding up a mirror to yourself, so you can see the implications of holding on to this particular way, versus the possibilities that might come when you let go. So there's, there's multiple ways to think about letting go, I don't think it's one size fits all. I think initially, we should definitely begin with the the, I do think there's that sort of more, more inviting posture.

Greg Voisen
So that sometimes we need help along the way, and you speak about having a spiritual friend. Now I'm not certain whether or not the friends by not binds us or we find the friend. How does one find such a companion? And what role does this kind of play in our quest for fullness? What I say spiritual friend, you're saying you've had lots of encounters and you write throughout the book with counters with animals like the Jaguar and your dreams and things like that. And I think for everybody, this is different. So we want to do is pull apply what might be going on to those that are listening around? Who is this spiritual friend that you can call into your life? To help you on your quest for wholeness? And how does that play out? How did that play out for you?

Ben Katt
Yeah, you know, it because of the hero's journey is so often misconstrued. Or maybe it's in the Hollywood versions of it, right? That it's this like, independent, self sufficient quest that you need to go on. It's all about like, yeah, this rugged individualism, it is really important always to name that even the pattern as Campbell sees it across myths and religious stories and cultural traditions, is always one in which there's help, right? There's the wise sage or the companion, the friend, the Yoda, the Gandalf these kinds of characters that help us along the way. And so for me, I really had sort of multiple that emerge at a similar time one would have been it was rekindling a dear friendship I had from college many years earlier, my friend Nico, who I talked about a lot in the book because he's, he's on some of my adventures and was in a parallel season of his own life, but some work stuff had brought us together, so I had someone a soul friend. I love that term coming from the Celtic idea of Ankara, or Kalyana Mitra, which is the Buddhist idea, a good kindness. But here's someone I could talk about anything if I could be raw and real. I didn't have to, you know, package everything nicely and say that I had everything together. And so now the great thing about Nico's like there are so many dimensions to our relationship. But I do like to say that a soul friend of this kind of companion is probably going to be different. It could be the same person was probably a bit different than like golf buddy or biking buddy or drinking buddy. I'm sort of speaking specifically prior to like men and midlife. Then hopefully you can do some of the other things have those meaningful activities, but there's going to be an increase depth to it. And when I when I think is. So the other ones by the way, I got a spiritual director that could say more about that. And then also just the wisdom through books, podcasts, I think your podcast, I've no doubt that it actually serves as an important help or guiding voice, or even sulfur and a companion to people who are in the middle of really difficult situation. So grateful for what you do. But I had, yeah, I mean, I mean, I had podcasts, right, that the kind of thing that that's sitting with me, it's stirring something within me, I feel seeing and I feel known. It's calling forth. Greater wholeness. For me, I mean, it's a game changer. So I want to and then there's, there's the animals in the wild. So there's a whole host of things. But when I say to people, if you're saying, well, where's my health going to come from? I think when you open yourself up to this, it's almost as if you're, you're, you're functioning on a different frequency. And so there is a sense that you, did they find you, you find them, I think you find each other, that there's that conversation you have that suddenly goes to a little bit more depth than maybe it used to, or then usually would, because you are becoming more aware of your inner life. And so you're detecting others who are in a similar state, and there's a resonance there. So it might just be for a moment or get like where someone has a word of wisdom, something to say to you that's really critical that you need to hear, or that can be the the seeds of an ongoing relationship that deepens and this person accompanies for months and years on your journey. Now, if you're afraid that you're not going to file niceties, keep putting yourself out those out there in situations. And this might mean showing up in spiritual communities, maybe in a community, some other coaching group, like whatever it might be lots of things. But also, there's this wonderful category of spiritual companion called spirit of spiritual directors. And that was a critical source of support for me, essentially, someone who is trained in the art of being a soul friend. So that's also an option. So really, there's an abundance of people out there, and I have no doubt that you will find each other when the time is right.

Greg Voisen
It's interesting, you talk about this as spiritual, but I'm gonna just call them spiritual friend or director. You know, in matrimony, we're everybody out there who gets married, whether they're gay, or straight. They have this partner in life. And many people, you'll say today, well, I've grown away from my partner because of my spiritual beliefs. My current spiritual beliefs, people will actually admit that they'll say, hey, things aren't the way that they used to be. What advice would you give somebody, look, you're married, you have three kids, hopefully, your wife is your spiritual friend as well. We hope that, but even not if they're not, the partner is helping you grow in ways in leaps and bounds that because they're testing you. So the question is whether or not that test is something you still need? Or if you've outgrown it, would you want to comment on that at all? I know, it's kind of off the wall question. I

Ben Katt
love it. Let's give it a try here. So I've been married for 20 years got married very young, my wife and I are probably on our fifth marriage to each other, something like that. I say that to just signal like, you know, any relationship, it constantly evolves. And so we've been fortunate, fortunate enough, from a young age to kind of develop this sense of spaciousness, that we each are on our own spiritual journey. And yet, there's a trust and safety to bring that back to each other. And that the benefit then is incredible. So we're not static individuals, we're dynamic, and we're changing. And so I'm grateful for that. I also realized that's not the case for everyone or it's not a place you currently are at but maybe you one day we'll we'll get to. But it's really important not whether it's a partner, like spouse or a friend to not like when you go on when you're on this inner journey. When your your spiritual beliefs or practices shift and change. When you make new discoveries about who you are and why you're here. It's important not to write others off just because they haven't gone through that. And I think that's what you're getting at here. Is there still something there's always something they have to offer us? And so this work of integration often like that coming back home, which we're talking about in the Baxter to my book, I really say don't like be very careful not just to throw aside relationships. They might have not have the depth say as some of your soul friend relationships, but these are people who will love you and care for you. And they have at times seen you too and you've been unable to see yourself. They've they've called you out on your bullshit, right? They've, they've been really like a critical presence for you. Now. Then there's also a time and I Think this is what I like to advocate like go on your inner journey at the beginning when you need to let go of something, sometimes, again, this is this is not a one size fits all advice. But sometimes it's really easy to say I know I promise it's the other person. And so we say the thing I need to like, oh, is the other person, I'm sorry, there's likely more internal dynamics that you need to sit with first. So what would it look like for you to go on that inner journey, maybe not be sharing everything with that person, because you don't have that level of trust in your your marriage or relationship. And on the other side, you might discover, wow, the issue is, I've been showing up in this small way. And I need to at least give give this relationship a chance, I need to give it a chance, I need to show up more fully. And guess what we might realize that no, we're not compatible for this next phase of the journey. Okay? But at least like you've done your due diligence, and you haven't just put something on someone else, you've done that inner work. And because if you don't do that in work, and you just like bail right at the beginning, guess what? You're gonna repeat those same pattern habits. So there you go. I took it, I took a stab at it. There's a few different things I said there. But oh, no,

Greg Voisen
I think I think what you said was very meaningful. And, you know, you already mentioned returning home, you know, both literally and metaphorically, it's kind of a significant aspect of, of the book. And Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey is also true with all the helpers along the way, kind of returning home, you know, you can look at it and, and all of the things from Beauty and the Beast to anything that's been graded by Disney. What does home mean to you now, after all of these experiences that you've had, versus what home may have meant to you, prior to you having had these experiences?

Ben Katt
Yeah. So this is sort of playfully entering that initially, the the initial title that I was playing with for the book was something like way, or the way in the publisher was like, the way home. And I did have a chapter already in the book that was, it's the idea of returning home. So it was there. But really, that it's like, that's what they saw. And I'm like, no that and I already had language speaking to that effect. But yes, this whole thing of like, adventuring towards wholeness or this hero's journey. I think another way of understanding it is the journey back home to yourself. And there's a few things that I do mean by that I think one home is synonymous with wholeness. Now, what is wholeness? wholeness is about the sense of welcoming and integrating all those different parts of who you are and who you've been. So not just casting them off, not just dismissing them. There is a sense of, as I talked about in the book, even welcoming home those parts of ourselves that and saying, Hey, thanks, achiever, Ben perfectionist, Ben people pleaser have been util played an invaluable role in helping me become who I am. And your work is no longer needed. That's, you know, that's this idea of dismissing the loyal soldier, which is something that Bill Plotkin and Richard Rohr and others talk about. So rather than just forcefully saying, forget that I can't believe that's who I was. It's it is this coming to terms with how you showed up in the world, and even the parts of the brokenness, the broken parts of yourself? So wholeness? I think another part is, it is about self belonging, by that I mean is we're not looking to anyone else outside of us, we're not externally reference we're internally referenced, we've tapped into that inner stillness, that spaciousness, that that expanse of consciousness of who we really are, that there's a sense of, even as I'm facing challenges, or there's these opinions and perspectives of others, I'm no longer looking to all those other external forces for validation or confirmation about who I am. Because I know, I've tapped into that, that essence of who I am.

Greg Voisen
Well, you can have and I think that the thing is, sometimes people come to a truth with a big T, not a little T, they have a knowing versus a belief, a an OWI, and G with a big K, meaning that is my knowing meaning. This isn't just a belief. This is a knowing for me, right? Yeah. And I think some sometimes people look at that. And they maybe say, well, that's kind of weird, because doesn't knowing ever change, or does only a belief change, right? And I'm going to refer to this because you have a phrase in the book that I'm going to end this podcast with you say called loud. Lastly, staying weird, is a phrase that you use to describe remaining faithful to one's unique path. Yeah, okay. So let's talk about it as a knowing Yes, it's, I know who I am. I'm going to be faithful to who I am. And I'll set my values around what I believe or I should say what I know that is, so when a word and often pressure kind of comes in from conformity, because outside world says, well, that's not truly who you are been, it's the dot, dot. What advice do you have for those who are seeking to embrace? And this is no cliche word, but our authentic selves. You know, it's spoken about a lot, but at the same time, then people still seem to seek it. And maybe they will seek that authenticity or knowing most of their life, or all of their life.

Ben Katt
Yeah, this is a great question to come to, because also, it's related to that, kind of the last understanding of wholeness I have which is it is this idea of being true to yourself or, and continuing on the journey, this idea of growing so the last chapter book, it is called begin again, because I believe we're always spiraling up into greater wholeness, meaning, we are anchored in our knowing, but how that that is expressed in the world, right in the world of quote, unquote, the unknown around us. Now, we can move forward with courage and it's dynamic, we're both highly adaptable, and by being highly adaptable, we're totally stable, then nothing can faze us. And I see that at the core of this, this knowing that's attained. And so as it relates to this idea of, of staying weird. Without getting into all of its state, be faithful to your weird A, the word Wyrd, which is a word out of like Norse mythology, ma'am, was an initial phrase that Joseph Campbell use before he started saying, you know, follow your bliss. So there's this idea of being true to your path. But but but weird, wy rd what I love about that, and kind of adapting for just to say Stay weird. It's got these three meanings and one was, it's this idea of like that which is otherworldly, it's like otherworldly. So this idea of as you walk on the path, you know, being someone who's attuned to your spiritual life, who's developing your spiritual life, who's in the conversation with the something more who's open to mystical presence, that mystical experience, that's a core aspect, okay? Another meaning of weird would be just that sense of like, odd or different. And to walk on this path, as someone say, who's in tune with your knowing, or you know, someone who is seeking wholeness, it also means there's going to be certain practices that you engage in with spiritual practices or mist, I talked about ritual practices, there's going to be decisions you make, there's going to be things you you turn away from you turned down, it'd be pattern operating patterns that you move, according to that are different from, say that as quote, and how many move around. So that's just weird. And then the last one, I have a weird wy rd is that is actually tied to an image of these three sisters who were spinning the Threads of Fate, okay. And so this idea to walk on this path out of the inner knowing it's like you are, one we see is you're making your own destiny, which I realize I can sign, like some like it really kind of crazy and out there. But what that means is you are living your life with intention. You're not just functioning like a machine, you're not a cog in the wheel, you're very deliberate about law, allowing that inner knowing to guide how you move in, quote, unquote, the outer world. So Stay, stay

Greg Voisen
weird, Stay weird. And your book, as it says on the back, the hero's journey is an adventure in leaving the familiar of falling into the unknown, and rising to wholeness. I think that's a great statement. It's a great way to kind of leave this interview as well. This is a powerful guide for you, if you're on that journey, but most of us we're all on the journey all the time. You know, the question is, are we willing to awaken to the possibilities of this journey, and actually embrace it versus being afraid to what actually might be there lying out there for us? And I think that spiritual friend is a good example you made the spiritual director is you're gonna find people that are going to help you no matter what they're out there. It call it the Akashic Record, you know, it's written into your record. The reality is, is there is going to be cut someone along the way that you you go, Oh, my gosh, when you look back at the story, you go, yeah, that person was there and they really helped me. Oh, that person was there and they really helped it that time. You don't always see it that way. But you will when you actually go back and reflect on it. So I want to thank you for writing the way home a wonderful book, discovering the The hero's journey in wholeness at midlife, actually all of life. And and the reality is, is that, Ben, I wish you well on this journey because I know there's lots of twists and turns for you as you move forward with the new book. As you move forward doing your work with the people who are incarcerated, I'm really commend you for that, and the work that you're going to do there, your nonprofit work, and obviously juggling all these balls with still children, and a family. And it is something and I think the key is, is we we use the word work versus the word immersiveness. You know, we are, we are immersed in this experience. And I think the key to it to living life fully is to be grateful. Grateful for all the stumbles and falls and things that happen, the excitement, everything along the way, and say, this is Ben cat. This is Greg voice it. And I want to thank you for bringing that out in this book. I really do. Well,

Ben Katt
Greg, thanks so much for having me and to everyone who joined us for this. Thanks for being here. And one last little Joseph Campbell thing that I love to remind people of and it's related to the health, it's related to the guidance, all the things that he just said, doors will open, where there were no doors. So Greg, I hope that's true for you and everyone listening that you know, as you take that next step into the unknown, just trust doors will open where there were no doors. If

Greg Voisen
that's the only thing you took away from this podcast. That was a big one. Thanks so much, Ben, for being on namaste to you. Thank you for spending the time with my listeners. I truly appreciate you and the message. From the way home we'll put a link to the podcast if you want to learn more about Ben go to Benjamin B. NJAMINKTT. There you can learn more about his book meditation, coaching, speaking and everything else you need to know. Thanks so much, Ben.

Ben Katt
Thank you, Greg.