Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And on the other end of this camera is Maisie Ganzler and Maisie is joining us from Santa Cruz today. Good day to you, Maisie, how you doing?

Maisie Ganzler
Good morning. I'm very good and happy to be here. Thanks. Great.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's a pleasure having you on the show. And I'm glad that Harvard press put us together as a Harvard Press book. And I'm gonna let our listeners know a little bit about this. The book that we're going to be doing the interview for today is called, you can't market manure at lunchtime, and other lessons from the food industry for creating a more sustainable company. The book will be out April 2, which is right around the corner for all of my listeners, and we'll put a link to Amazon there. Is there a particular website that you'd like the listeners to go to learn more about the book? Macy. I know we talked about that last time, so I don't know if you got a spot you want to send them?

Maisie Ganzler
Yeah, they can go to maisieganzler.com. So that's, that's my full name Maisie Ganzler, or as you say, just go to Amazon, it's a lot easier to spell.

Greg Voisen
We'll definitely put a link to your website, your personal website. But Maisie Gansler is the chief strategy and Brand Officer of Bon Appetit management company. As a matter of fact, when we talk she has since kind of retired from that position. So she was I should say, in that position, she's an award winning for food service company. For the last 30 years, she has been the architect of their groundbreaking approach to responsible purchasing and leading a force behind their pivotal shift towards sustainability. Sustainability is a crucial component in marketing everything from food to clothing, consumers, and critics often think that there is a sustainable switch somewhere that corporate executives slip on, or simply write a check to fix but many companies are in the dark about actually how to do it, and make it better for the planet and people through the power their supply chain, while simultaneously increasing sales and managing costs. And what Macy has become is really a thought leader in this arena. And her new book, as we said, you can't market manure at lunchtime is just out for release. And we're going to be speaking with her about the book, and how she has been able to do this for bon appetit and advise other people as well. Well, Macy, good morning to you. If you would tell the listeners a little bit about yourself the role that you had, and now as a consultant to the company, as a go to expert to help companies make this positive chain in their supply chain. And what you call other entrenched systems that are that are out there. So would this be a good place to start? Absolutely.

Maisie Ganzler
So I had the great fortune of finding a corporate home with bone appetit management company that I was able to stay in and grow for 30 years, it was a fantastic run. And in that time you stick around a company long enough, you can start picking up departments. So as you said, I've recently retired from the role of Chief Strategy and Brand Officer. And in that position, I oversaw marketing, communications, purchasing, wellness, culinary and guest facing technology. What you didn't hear me say was that I oversaw the sustainability department. And that's a very conscious choice that I made at Bon Appetit to never have anybody in a corporate role with the term sustainability in their title. I think when you do that you make sustainability, one person's job or one group's job. And I think to have it truly at the heart of your brand, which is what I'm talking about in you can't market manure at lunchtime. You have to have sustainability as part of everybody's job. So getting back to who I am, I'm somebody who spent 30 years working in a large corporation. We're about $1.7 billion in revenue 20,000 employees and creating a differentiation in the marketplace using sustainability. Yeah,

Greg Voisen
sustainability is one of those words that gets tossed around as you said, and you know, we look at a mini comp is like Patagonia who've been a great example of sustainability, how they access their products. And they're only one of many who actually use it in their marketing. Right? In other words to get it to the public, because that's what the public is demanding. Now they're demanding more and not greenwashing. But truly companies that are acting sustainable. You know, the title for the book, you can't market manure at lunchtime. It's obviously very unusual. Even if you want to hold it up again, I'd love to, so that people can see that the outside of it. And it's intriguing, could you just share the story behind how you came up with that particular title for the book.

Maisie Ganzler
So you can't make it maneuver at lunchtime refers to an experience I had, where our CEO and founder Fidel Bauccio, had been railing against corporate big ag, particularly in pork production. He had spent two years on something called the Pew commission for industrial farm animal production, which was a group of experts that travelled around the country looking at how animals are being raised for food. And he had become outraged about many things, including how manure is managed. Manure is often simply sprayed into the air to cover fields and nearby communities have high rates of asthma and other lung conditions. So he was literally and cancer. Yeah. So he was really fired up. And he was he was speaking out, and our pork supplier, flew to our Palo Alto offices to say, Stop talking about about us stop complaining publicly. And there was this argument going on between the two of them. And in my head, I was cheering on my boss who was taking up the mantle for environmental change. But I was also thinking, you can't market manure at lunchtime. And what I meant by that was if he was able to succeed in getting the manure lagoons emptied and a new manure management system put into place, how were we going to tell that story to our customers? How are we going to get market credit for that, because it was going to raise costs. And so the title has that dual piece of manure, which I think stands in for environmental change, and marketing, which stands in for business interests, and my hope is that you can marry both of them. And, you know, the platitude do do well, by doing good. It's

Greg Voisen
interesting, because I'm not, if I don't remember the state correctly, but there's been a lot of stories lately, I think it's North Carolina, or in that region, where the manure that is produced by the pigs ends up providing such a stench in the community. And these are, oh, what I want to call impoverished areas around this area, so many of the people are not treated equally. And I think it's really important to understand that that problem is polluting the waterways, it's creating cancer in the community, it's creating a lot of problems. So for your boss, standing up for something to change is really a big deal, because that's a huge, huge industry that has made tons of money off the way they've continued to do things. And they need to change. Most definitely. So you know, you state that building a brand known for authentically promoting sustainability. It requires both making meaningful change, like you were talking about with your boss, and get marketing recognition for your efforts. How can businesses integrate sustainability into their marketing efforts? In and I'm gonna underline this in a genuine and impactful way. And I think the key word there really is genuine because I've seen this done really bad. And I've seen it done very well. And right now, you know, it's like this whole controversy over Well, are you going to buy an Eevee? That's a good one. Well, and then while we're all those batteries going, right, so tell us how you would do that because you are the marketing genius.

Maisie Ganzler
Well, in order to integrate sustainability into your marketing in genuine, authentic way, first you have to integrate sustainability into your operations. And I think that's really the key is that marketing doesn't get out ahead of how the business is operating. At Bon appetit. We started our local buying program farm to fork in 1999. We committed to sustainable seafood around the same time I started working on antibiotics and food production in 2002. It wasn't until 2004, that we actually put a brochure together and started talking about these things publicly. So we had many years of operational change before we started telling the story. And I think that's the first piece to authenticity is making sure that you're actually doing the things in your business that these actions have been institutionalized, prior to marketing them. And then the second piece of authenticity is about really being transparent. And I mean, radically transparent. So when things go wrong, you tell your customers, the message should come from you first, don't hope that no one's going to notice, my experience is that if you get the message out there first, in most cases, people don't even listen, it becomes a nothing burger. So it's those two pieces of making sure you're really doing it and being transparent, then you come up with the cute marketing line and the great brochure with the pretty pictures. Well,

Greg Voisen
as you're speaking about this, I'm thinking about Friday of last week, I spent a full day at natural, natural products West Expo. And this is where all of these food companies and all kinds of other companies introduce new lines, new brands, new this new that. And it always surprises me as to the billions and billions and billions of dollars that go into marketing foods, right? Food, food products, food substitutes, whatever they are, yet, they I hate to point this out. But many of them are not sustainable the way they're packaging them or putting them together. You know, like putting water in an aluminum can Well, who thought that one through? That's one of monsters new things monster drink, monster water now, right? What do you think needs to happen to that kind of industry? Because it's, it's really about the sizzle, the sex, the appeal, what the consumer is on the other end to try and get them to convert to some kind of new product or whatever? What What kind of warning would you have for kind of the consumers that don't know it all out there that are sitting there listening to this podcast going? Oh, well, there's that great new XYZ, you know, called The Impossible Burger, the beyond burger, whatever it is? They're trying to do good, but I'm not certain are they always? Yes,

Maisie Ganzler
you raise a lot of really good points. And one thing that comes to mind quickly for me, though, as a marketer, is that water in a can or water in a bottle is convenient for people, they perceive it to be better for them somehow more pure, and easy. And we as people selling and marketing food or any product have to keep in mind, the customers desires. And sometimes in the sustainability world, when we're marketing products, we want customers to do things that they perceive as counter to their own interests, we want them to do something that's harder, or something, eat something that doesn't taste as good, or pay more or go out of their way to get it. So we need to always remember things have to be convenient, and affordable, and pretty, and most importantly, taste really good. One of the other issues that you raised was around understanding the science behind something you'd have but what happens to those evey batteries is a beyond burger and Impossible Burger really better for you or not, or better for the planet. And one of the things that I really struggled with at Bon Appetit was having all of this science and wanting to tell every customer the entire story, I wanted to give a two hour lecture on why antibiotics are used in animal production with lots of big scientific words. And customers don't really have time or interest for the most part in that. So my recommendation to companies that have a sustainability story is that you need to have a two fold story. One is the quick piece of information. That's your headline on your package, your posters, your website, but then you need a click here for more to give the science behind and really be able to prove what that claim is. 80% of people are never going to click more. But those people who have that real curiosity, who really understand the issues, you need to give them the information. I think the Monterey Bay Aquarium Seafood Watch program does a great job with that on their website, you get the quick hint of what the rating is, is the seafood a best choice good alternative, or you should do avoid it. And then you can click further and see a summary of the report. And then you can click and see the entire report that the scientists have written that's gone out for public comment, most people aren't going to read that. But for the few that do that's really critical.

Greg Voisen
It's interesting, because the supply chain is so filled with so much to actually do all your research deep before you put a product out is a big key area. I just use an example. There was these farmers almond farmers at the show from Australia, and the byproduct was organic honey. And they said to me, do you know in the United States, there is no organic honey. And I went, really, and they said because it has to be natural from within a certain distance, just what you're saying, you know, you have to meet these certain requirements for it to be labeled organic. Right. And we, according to them, they said we don't have any organic. And when I went around the show, I did not find organic on the bottles of honey. I only saw it at that one spot. So I found that quite interesting. And I think that's a lesson we all can kind of learn is like we don't know, we just picked something off the shelf, we believe well, because it was a bee it was organic, but it's not. It's not. So in your book, you speak about these five lessons for building business and a brand on sustainability. Could you speak with the listeners about the lessons and how companies can benefit from these lessons that you've learned?

Maisie Ganzler
Lesson number one is about how to pick the issues you take on as a company. And that example that you just gave about the organic honey is a great a great example. So that company has decided the issue they're taking on its organics. Now they're bringing a product from Australia, I think you said Yeah, to the US. And they're raising of product, almonds that are very water intensive. So the issue that they've picked is organics and probably pollinators since they're talking about bees, they have not picked local purchasing, and they have not picked water reduction. And that's okay if that speaks to your customers. So issue number are Lesson number one is to pick the battles that create a narrative that resonates with you and your company and your customers. Lesson number two is maybe you should rewrite your dream. And that comes from at Bon Appetit in 2004. When I said we started talking publicly about sustainability, we actually rewrote the mission statement or what's called at Bon Appetit the dream. And that's the idea that if you truly want sustainability to be at the heart of your brand and needs to be at the heart of your business. Lesson number three is about creating systems alignment and measurement. If you want sustainability to be true and genuine, you need to track it, prove it and report out. And it's probably the least sexy but most important topic of all which is measurement. The true work of sustainability often hits happens sitting behind the computer with a bunch of spreadsheets, looking at individual purchases and adding up what percent were organic or local or that, you know, we like to think of the sustainability professional walking the fields and and you should do that too. Absolutely. But much of the work is around measurement and reporting. Lesson Four is what to do when things go wrong, because things will go wrong. I promise you that especially if you're taking a leadership position, you're going to falter. And I start off by telling the story of Bill Campbell meats, which claimed that all of the meat that they sold online and in their retail shops came from their own farm their own ranch, while an employee went onto Instagram, and kind of crudely refuted that claim. Fast forward. It turned out that they were selling 94% of their products from their own land. Yet the app the accusations of greenwashing and how the issue was mishandled after that led to Is the company going kaput? Del Campo Farms is now a glamping site. And they're not selling the meat under the volcanica label at all. Any of us that have been measuring, as in lesson three, sustainability would be thrilled to be hitting a 94% success rate. So how did 94% lead to the undoing of an entire company? It's because they weren't transparent, and they didn't handle things correctly when things go wrong. So that's what I teach you in lesson four. And then lesson five is how to tell your story. And as I said earlier, in our conversation, it's intentional that you're telling the story at the very end, when you've already gotten through lessons one through four. But I talk about how to literally tell the story how to say the words and deliver the message as well as where to tell the story.

Greg Voisen
You know, as you're speaking here, I'm thinking to myself, I'm gonna be 70 years old in July. And I think about how did we get here? Meaning from this whole measurement of sustainability, because I can go back in time when I was a kid, nobody from what I could see was measuring anything that that planet was headed in the wrong direction, we were doing everything wrong. I know, we're at almost 8 billion people on this planet. And that's got to be one of the biggest reasons why we're so focused, and especially this $350 million 350 million person country. But then when you look at all these other countries, India, China, all the ones you put together, do you believe that they are as involved in the sustainability arena? Or is this just something that's centralized to Europe and the United States? You know, what's going on in the international market? I know, this wasn't one of my questions, but I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued with somebody with your knowledge to really tell me, what how did we get here, and our other company countries playing in this same arena?

Maisie Ganzler
Well, you mentioned India and China. And I think that one of the biggest questions is in the countries that have huge populations, and are growing in the case of India, not China, and have different maybe government oversight or lack thereof of sustainability reaching them as well. And I'll share a few things that give me hope. One is I've been doing a lot of work supporting the Monterey Bay Aquarium seafood watches program in trying to have more sustainable farmed shrimp production in India and Vietnam. And well, perhaps they don't have the same intrinsic desires, as we do as a whole as the government at the government level. They are wanting to sell to the US market. So right now, the majority of Indian farm shrimp is red listed by the Monterey Bay Aquarium. And that means that the vast majority of of us buyers will not buy it. So while they may not be trying to green shrimp in India, for the same reasons that we've been talking about, they do have a market interest in doing so. I see. I also I also got to go to Vietnam with the Seafood Watch team and I had a late night flight. It was flying out at two o'clock in the morning. And our meetings were done at 8am. And so I signed up for a cooking class just I was in Ho Chi Minh City, signed up for a Vietnamese cooking class and met this fantastic young couple, who was through Airbnb experiences, teaching cooking classes. And we started to go to get ready to go to the market to shop for ingredients. And she pulled out Tupperware reusable containers. And if you've ever been to an Asian market, there is no such thing as a reusable container. There's plastic bags everywhere. And she said to me, I'm a minimalist, and I'm an environmentalist. And there was this young woman taking her containers and explaining to the stall keepers that she wanted her things in reusable containers. That is the hope, right? Good

Greg Voisen
story.

Maisie Ganzler
Yeah, change is gonna happen. Well, it

Greg Voisen
happens one person at a time. We know that. And all of us out there listening who are consumers in the end. Be knowledgeable about where you're buying what you're buying what you're doing. Do a little research take a little bit more time to understand where these products are sourced from an X They were there sourcing the content from your thing with the pigs is a great example. Now, you in the book, you suggest the importance of timing and context in marketing. Can you discuss how businesses can effectively navigate what you're calling timing and contacts to maximize the impact of their marketing campaign? So if they're out there, I do realize there's certain timing like, right, like, last night, I watched the special that Oprah did on the medications that she used to lose weight, and brought all these people on, it was very interesting. It was very rushed, unfortunately. But, you know, obesity being such a big problem in every country, especially in England, and the United States, and, and, and in Australia. We've got these issues, and they're saying that it is a defeat, right. So I think to be knowledgeable these campaigns, I can almost see it after Oprah did that. Now you're going to see this blossoming of, because she is so big, like, Okay, is it time for me? Because Oprah did this, that maybe I could do this, right? You're following me where I'm going? Yeah, I

Maisie Ganzler
am. And one of the things that I talk about in the book is about when you launch your campaign and how you do it. And what I found is that you need a disruptive event. We were serving people at lunch, putting out lots of marketing materials. And people just ran by them. They're, they're there for lunch, they're moving fast. It's not the time that they want to sit down and read or learn. So we had to create disruptive events. One was called the Eat Local challenge, where for one day year, we served food that was all from 150 miles of the cafe, we marketed it ahead of time that it was going to happen. We change things around in the cafe. So when you got there, it looked differently. We brought farmers into the cafes, and people made time in their schedule, knowing that when they went to lunch that day, there was going to be an event and they were going to talk to people and learn something. Now, in reality, we were buying locally year round, but people didn't have time to stop and think about it. So that program you're talking about that Oprah did. That's the disruptive event, right? Yeah, I get promoted ahead of time, you're primed, you're gonna sit down for an hour and listen about it. And you're in a place where you're ready to receive the message.

Greg Voisen
Right? Well, that brings me to this question around storytelling. You know, you emphasize this value of storytelling and marketing in a chapter. And it's how to tell your story. So what you just did is set up a great example for to tell the story you brought the farmers in, it was within 150 miles, that was a lot more powerful than putting a bunch of brochures out for people who walked through to think they were going to do it because they weren't, and it was engaging. The reality is you had an audience engage? How can you share some examples, like more examples of successful storytelling techniques that have cotton you've come across in used to engage audiences to make a change in some way?

Maisie Ganzler
Well, using my story that I just told as an example, again, I started off the story by saying we put up information and people walked by it, right. So I started off with setting up a problem and owning a problem. So that is people want or then want to hear well, how did you fix it? And I come off as more authentic because I'm being transparent about not having always done it correctly. And so that's a big part about storytelling, when it comes to sustainability is not trying to put forth a perfect glossy picture. because sustainability is more complicated than that. So you want to be open about your setbacks. And in fact, I think you will be rewarded more by your customers when they understand how hard it was for you. In the intro. You said that, people advocates consumers often think that there's a flip a switch somewhere, you can flip and be more sustainable, if only a company would pay more. And it turns out, it's much much harder than that. Supply chains are complicated. The science is ever changing and not always clear. And so you should be Oh, Then about how difficult it was about how many times you screwed up. And in the end, people will appreciate your act more. So that story should be twisting and turning and have tension. And then you have this great resolution. Yeah, it's,

Greg Voisen
I agree, and especially something like what we said, Oprah was kind of the kickoff point, right, or the, the defining event or something, we've seen an industry, which is grown quite a bit, and I particularly follow it because I'm an avid cyclist, and that's electric bikes. And I know this isn't in the food realm, but I'm gonna use this as an example. It's become, I went to the CES show. And it surprised me the number of people that have jumped into the electric bike business, because it's projected to be a $5 billion industry here upcoming in these months. And what was interesting about it is, it's almost like in many cases, not much thought went into the, the actual production of the bicycle. So it's like, let's just get a bicycle out, right? Because we want to get in the market, we want people to know that it's going to happen. But what I'm saying is, that's not the way to do it. And it is, there is a way to do it. And it needs to be because the consumers out there are getting more and more savvy about the components on those bicycles, right. And it's no different than food than it is with bicycles. You said the beginning of this, this could be clothing, it can be bicycles, it can be electric cars, it can be whatever. It's really about how you're getting the story out. And as readers reach kind of the conclusion of your book, you can't market manure at lunchtime, what overarching message or takeaway do you hope that they're going to glean from reading your book in this message and take away? Whether it be the average consumer who looks up your book and learn something, or the person who's sitting in a big corporation or a mid sized Corporation, who's trying to do something differently? To really help the environment and put a better product in the market? What would you want them to walk away from here?

Maisie Ganzler
The overarching message of you can't market manure at lunchtime, I hope is that if you have a real strategy to your sustainability efforts, you can make meaningful change and get market credit. And when I say have a real strategy, I think that often, sustainability departments and large companies are just trying to meet some metric they're trying to get to net zero. They're trying to do whatever an advocacy group is asking them to do. And it's not integrated into the strategy of their overall business. It's just a one time checkoff box. I think that if you really pick the right issues, you align your systems, you tell your story, in a very intentional way that you can do better for our planet, do better for our communities, and do better for your bottom line, that those things are in concert not in conflict. Yes,

Greg Voisen
they are. And I have an offbeat question for you. Do you believe that our state which many people are running from at this point because of the cost to implement these environmental and sustainability programs, including the introductions of EVs to a large degree and the amount of money the state of California spends to make this happen? Do you believe it's headed in the right track? I know this is a generalized question. But there, we have some people that say, Hey, this is too expensive. We we just can't live here anymore because of the laws and the rules and the things that are being implemented. And you have people running and then you have other people running toward it saying, This is good. We need this because we need to save the world. Right? Does that make sense?

Maisie Ganzler
Yeah, I'll use the example of prop two in California, which was the bill that or the proposition that outlawed the sale or production of of pork raised with the use of gestation crates in the state of California, and it passed with an overwhelming majority. The thing that was really interesting about how the bill was written, it wasn't just pork raised in California, it was pork sold in California. And that's a recognition that California has a huge influence. I think we're what the fifth largest economy in the world something like that. Yeah. And with that comes responsibility I used to all the time, say, with great power comes great responsibility until I realized that I think I'm quoting Spider Man's uncle or something. How did that become my, my mantra, but I do believe it with great power comes great responsibility. And so California has an influence beyond even just our state lines. So the pork industry claimed that if prop two stood and they took it all the way to the Supreme Court that have brought to stood, there would be huge pork shortages, that bacon would double in price overnight, that the world would would end

Greg Voisen
right worked out Fornia.

Maisie Ganzler
Well, not just for California, for also the pork producers in Iowa and in North Carolina, and they're all selling to California. Well, prop two went into effect in January. And thus far, I think you can still get a BLT pretty much anywhere, even at a Denny's and they're still bacon on the burgers at your fast food restaurants. So some of that hype of the disaster that that California has good intentions are going is going to read, you might want to look at where those criticisms are coming from.

Greg Voisen
Well, I would agree with you. And I also, you know, you mentioned about in the market in the Asian markets with the girl bringing her own sustainable Tupperware. And you know, we've been all over the state different cities are banning plastic bags. And I live in a little city Encinitas, where they've been banned for quite some time. And now even banning more of those type of things that are being used, because they tried to change the kind of bag and then they said, No, you're not going to change that bag, we're just not going to have plastic bags at all. And so I don't disagree with that. What I'm saying is we do live in a state where we've taken many of these things to local municipalities to come up with laws and rules to regulate whether or not you can do what I just said was bring, bring your own plastic bag in and then carry it back home again, which I think is the right thing to do. So look, the books filled with stories, real life examples from the food world? What bits of advice do you have for businesses looking to adapt their marketing strategies, and align with the evolving consumer preferences and values? Because this is really the where that pedal hits the metal? Right? It's like, what are those consumers thinking about their their preferences and values? And how is my marketing going to align to that, and I don't think it's a one size fits all. That's what I do know for a fact, because we're made of a planet of all kinds of people, all different nationalities. And not everybody thinks and acts the same way.

Maisie Ganzler
I had the great pleasure interviewing 12 People for the book. So there's lots of stories in addition to my own from, from brands that people would recognize, like Whole Foods Market, Chipotle, Ben and Jerry's, Clif Bar and company. And one of the people I interviewed was Roma, mckegg. And she talked about just what you're getting at, which is that she was at a large food company. And they outlined 14 dimensions, I think of sustainability, and then decided in each area, did they want to be a leader? Or did they want to just keep up with the pack? You never want to be a laggard. But as you say, there's people have different desires, different values, different needs. And as companies, we need to know which part of the market we're serving, and then decide for each dimension of sustainability. Do we want to be a leader? And if so, I wouldn't wait for consumer preference. If you want to be a leader, you're going to have to be out in front of your consumers, leading them taking some risks, you'll probably stumble, as I said, but you need to be out there ahead and saying, Hey, here's an issue you haven't even thought of yet. And here's what we're doing about it. That's where you want to be if you decide to be a leader, if you want to keep up with the pack, then you're watching those consumer market research reports, and you're watching your competitors and you're making sure that you don't fall behind. And that again, goes back to what I'm saying about having a strategy, really thinking through where does sustainability fit into your brand? And where do you need to be in terms of the marketplace relatively to your competitors, and

Greg Voisen
I think it's a cradle to cradle kind of situation. You can't do cradle to grave, right? It's not like Okay, I can in the I have a loamy, right? Oh, that's like, Hey, we're How are you getting rid of your raised? Well, you're turning it in to compost and you're putting it back into the ground again, well, is that the best way because you get to use all the electricity for the Lumbee. Or you just put it in a bag and throw it in the trash can. And I did an interview with a guy from Italy that came up with the most sustainable way because Italy was having such a problem with food waste. And it was interesting to see what the remedies were. And like I say, people that are aware want to have an option to choose how they do that. Right. And I think when you lead your marketing campaign in the right direction, and you do think Cradle to Cradle not cradle to grave, because most people are saying, well, I don't just want the methane gas to be pumped off to serve people that are mining Bitcoin, right? Because that's what's happening now with the the gases that are coming off of trash heaps and disposals. Right. But, you know, there's so many things that are going on out there and you expose so many people to it. Can you hold the book up again, just so our listeners can see the front cover cover of it. It's a great I love the cover. By the way, you can't market manure at launch. Maisie Gansler, we've been on with her speaking about her new book, Maisie, thanks so much for being on inside personal growth and sharing some of your stories and sharing how you when you're worked at Bon appetit. You know, you really had it up what you you call this department with inside the company and the things you've learned and now as an advisor, teaching other people out in the world how to do this, go to her website, which we said is Maisie m a i s i e, g a n g le r.com. There you can get in touch with her if you've got some questions or you want to hire her to be a consultant to your company. I'm sure she'd be happy to do that. Maisie thanks for being on inside personal growth. And thanks for taking the time today. Namaste to you.

Maisie Ganzler
Thank you. I really enjoyed the conversation.