Greg Voisen
Hey! Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. All of you know me. And some of you might know Dr. Rick Hanson, who is sitting across from me on the screen over there via all this great technology Zoom for Inside Personal Growth. Rick, good afternoon to you. How are you doing today?

Rick Hanson
I'm good. And I'm thoroughly psyched a to hang out with you again, Greg. It's been too long and B to explore Neurodharma.

Greg Voisen
Oh, yeah. You know, I was telling Rick how I got here, ladies and gentlemen. And I was at a meditation retreat on Orcas Island, and the lady was on the pathway. And she flipped bricks book up and said, I'm reading this book and I'm not gonna go hike because I'm gonna finish read. I was like, Well, that was a sign to actually have Rick back on the show. So thanks for being on. I'm gonna let my listeners know a bit about you. Rick Hansen, PhD is psychologists a senior fellow at UC Berkeley's Greater Good Science Center. And New York Times bestselling author. He has seven books that have been published in 31 languages and called including making great relationships, neuro Dharma, the one that we're going to be speaking about resilient hardwiring happiness. Just one thing, Buddha's Brain, Mother Nature and the list goes on. He's also the founder of the global compassion Coalition and the wellspring Institute for Neuroscience and contemplative wisdom, as well as co host of being well podcast, which has been downloaded over 9 million times. His free newsletters are our have over 250,000 subscribers and his online programs have scholarships available for those with financial leads needs. He lectured at NASA, Google, Oxford, Harvard, an expert on positive neuroplasticity. His work has been featured on CBS, NPR and BBC and other major networks. He began meditating in 74, and has taught in meditation centers worldwide. And I was going to tell him, and he lives in Northern California, San Rafael, with his two adult children, and he loves the wilderness and taking breaks from emailing. Yes, sir. And I was actually working with Richie Davidson on a project in Wisconsin. So you can relate. But Rick, let's kind of start this out at the foundation. Yeah, girl and dharma. Right? People don't think of them. Think of those two words together, probably. For our listeners, who are probably unfamiliar, maybe not with the term Dharma, but the term that you've brought two words together here and brought together? What is it to you? And what does it mean? And what should our listeners kind of take away from that?

Rick Hanson
Yeah, so the word dharma, or dharma, in some of that really ancient languages, comes to us through India. And it can might seem like a fancy word, it means essentially, whatever is true, and an accurate description of what is true, especially one that is useful. So that's what that term means. And for me, when I put together neuro and dharma, it's basically because we can know ourselves in two ways from the inside out, based on our feelings and thoughts, hopes, and sorrows, which are not tangible, you cannot weigh a feeling. All right, we can also know ourselves through modern science increasingly, from the outside in, in terms of the operation of our body, and our nervous system. That moment by moment by moment, is constructing our stream of consciousness. And neuro Dharma is the intersection of those two ways of knowing herself, which is really interesting, and is full of useful tools that we can use, to use our mind to change our brains to change our minds for the better.

Greg Voisen
Well, and that includes, you know, happiness, and I just had Justin Kennedy on here, who started the Center for Neuro plant plasticity. And it's worldwide but he's out of Switzerland. And your lot of people you know, they hear this word neuroscience and neuroplasticity. They know about the right hemisphere and left hemisphere of the brain, they know maybe about the frontal lobe and all these kinds of things that we talk about. But your book beautifully kind of marries this ancient wisdom with a new science. That's right, and what motivated you to explore the intersection, especially concerning human happiness because you've heard other books on happiness, and happiness seems to be a plugin for you. And I think for all these 1000s of listeners we have it's a plugin for them to where they're seeking it. They don't always find it, but they're constantly seeking it. What would you advice would you provide? That's great

Rick Hanson
question. So, for me, there's a range. So I'm a longtime therapist. And I'm also a person who's grappled with a lot of unhappiness actually. And so if you imagine the range from minus 10 to plus 10, it's really important to move Get your nose above the waterline, if you're chronically anxious or angry, or distractible, or sad, or feeling inadequate, that really wears on a person. And there's a place for addressing that, certainly, but at the point that people start to get their nose above the waterline, and they start being able to stabilize their wellbeing at a plus one. And then we start to consider what are the full opportunities available to us in this human life, we look them to the people and the traditions around the world, all kinds of traditions, some of them famous, most of them not, who have gone as far as you can possibly go in human potential. And what I think then we can do is start to reverse engineer what's involved in being someone who's awakened, enlightened, or pretty darn close to it. What's the process that gets us there. And so what the book is about seven qualities that we find in people that are fully awakened around the world, and all these traditions, and are available to each one of us as well, the seven qualities which we'll talk about, I'm sure, and the books, essentially about the development of the seven qualities in whatever your own personal Path of Awakening is, by harnessing the powerful technology, in effect, the inner technology that combines the best of the contemplative traditions with the latest brain science.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and, you know, many of my listeners know that I've worked with Dr. Brian Holloman, in Kaiser, and he's basically been the one with Dr. Ferretti that came up with the ACE studies, adverse childhood experiences. And the reason I mentioned that is because in seeking whether your Eastern tradition but in seeking this, he went to India and asked all the Masters, you know, what is enlightenment? And they said, It's 100% acceptance of self, no matter how much you want to basically make it more than what it is because you think there's some secret formula, in essence that is in in these seven practices of the highest happiness, you're saying, highest happiness? Could you touch on them, what those seven practices are, and how my listeners actually might utilize them? To actually find what I'm saying here is enlightenment or happiness, which would be 100%. Acceptance of self.

Rick Hanson
Right? So, before I do that, let me just kind of lay a foundation partly related to what you said about 100% acceptance of self. So traditionally, it's understood that the path of practice is like a cart with two wheels. And one of those wheels is the track and one of those wheels follows the track of gradual development. So in gradual development, you gradually let go of trauma, material, you gradually disengage from addictions, you gradually, you know, release stuff you learn in your childhood, like I did, that's really contracted and kind of neurotic and not good for other people or yourself, you let that go. And also you cultivate, you develop qualities such as mindfulness lovingness, emotional balance, a sense of self-acceptance and wholeness, you cultivate the ability to live in the present, while also feeling connected to everything, on the edge of timelessness. Right there, I named the seven topics of the book, which all

Greg Voisen
You did, you did a good job of that in one sentence.

Rick Hanson
So that's one track. Alongside that track, though, is another track, which is in a way the more profound of the two tracks, which is to gradually inhabit and uncover your true nature already. What's already always been true in your underlying goodness, your underlying lovingness your underlying wakefulness, that for those who relate to it in this way, which I do, that underlying nature gradually or an Edison in its depths, is rested in the deepest reality of all that can increasingly shine through a person who's More and more transparent to it. So two tracks in my own life and career as an unhappy neurotic guy. I've focused mainly on the first track until about 10 years ago. And increasingly, that second track, the process of gradually uncovering, and coming home to what's always true, has become more central for me, but both are really important. And so with that caveat, yeah, if just think about Oh, but

Greg Voisen
I like how you explained it, you know, between two tracks, it's, it's both it is because I would agree on the one track, you're slowly letting go of what whatever you had that you said was neurotic. You know, and Bruce Lipton's case, it was he could, you know, he never saw his hair, parents and brace or, or give them each other a kiss. And so literally, he waited till he's 50 to marry. Yeah, you know, because he couldn't find love. Because he didn't have love in his family. Right. So I mean, it's the those are the programs that get instilled into that subconscious. Right, that are literally there reprogramming over that are keeping us from having things that we deserve in life. Yeah. But until we reprogram them, we don't have to we I mean, it doesn't right. You don't you're not born a brain, baby. Yeah, with all this hardware programming, right? Agreed. Yeah, it happens over time. And, you know, go back to these seven for a minute, because you went through them really fast. Yeah. So I'd like you to like, unpack them just a little bit. Because I think it's really important.

Rick Hanson
For me, it's such good news, that no matter what our past has been, we can always heal a little, grow a little and develop a little in every day. That is so helpful. So what is it that we're developing, right? One thing we can develop is greater steadiness of mind, greater ongoing real time, mindfulness, with a kind of depth of presence. That's the first of the seven practices of awakening, steadiness of mind, studying your mind, rather than being jumpy and distractible. The second, very much so is opening the heart lovingness, not lovingness, in which you get victimized or mistreated by others. Part of that loveliness includes being on your own side, compassion for yourself, friendliness towards yourself, encouragement towards yourself, that's part of that opening heart. Third, you see throughout the traditions and in everyday life, equanimity, emotional balance, which means increasingly, getting off the wheel of driven pneus, you still have desires that are healthy and beneficial, but you're more and more at peace with whatever happens. And a key to that grounded in our biological evolution is to is to increasingly rest in a sense of fullness and balance already, so that you're not coming from scarcity and deficit, your, your goals, your aspirations, your self actualization can come from a sense of fullness already. So those first three steadiness, lovingness, and fullness, they come together, and you can kind of feel them. They're, they're pretty down to earth. The next three are a little subtler, but they're really central.

Greg Voisen
So you're saying coming, let me repeat that coming from fullness? Where on the spectrum in a kind of Eastern philosophy, might emptiness play a role in all of that? Because you know, as you kind of look at that you're saying I'm coming? Full? Right? Yeah. Meaning I, I'm gonna say I'm deserving. Yeah. Okay. Versus being able to sit in this space with maybe. Hi, I'm just gonna say nothingness. Yeah, right. I was Thomas Moore was on here. Recently, we had a long discussion about the eloquence of silence. And one of the things that he related in the first story was going to do a book signing and nobody showed up. So there was no one there was empty. Empty, EMP T why, right? Interestingly, he went home and he had one of the best experiences he'd ever had, as a result of having an empty, nobody showing up for his book signing. Right. But how many people could have that because most people the brain is going to default to Oh, my God, it's a horrible book. Oh, my God, it's this. It's that the ego is going to go back to that. Could you address that a little bit? Because to me, there's a little bit of a conundrum there.

Rick Hanson
I think it's a great example. So as you probably well know, in the Four Noble Truths or ennobling truths, sketch stopped by the Buddha. The first truth is not suffering. The first truth is the truth of dukkha. Which means three things essentially, sometimes things are unpleasant. always pleasant experiences change, they end. And all experiences are insubstantial. They're made of parts that are connected and changing, thus empty of absolute essence, solidity, or identity. Those are conditions in life. There's no suffering inherent in those three conditions. Suffering happens when we engage the second truth of craving thomna in Pali, so why do we crave cravings? The problem? Reality is not the problem. Reality just is what it is. And it includes a lot of beautiful things like enjoying being on your show, right? But there is also Dukkha. So Tonhalle cravings, the problem, why do we crave biologically, bodies crave, bodies crave, and are designed to crave by mother nature and 600 million years of evolution of the nervous system bodies are designed to crave when something is missing, or something is wrong. As the as the animal perceives, including the human animal, Bruce Lipton is a wonderful example. Not Yeah, it was not Bruce rather Thomas Moore, his book, care of the soul I really enjoyed or got a lot out of. So he walks into that room, which happens to not have any people in it. Okay. And unlike most people, and probably me early on as an author, it doesn't land on an Islamic sense. It does have something missing or something wrong. So he doesn't get triggered into craving. Right? It's just a condition that he's dealing with. But he's not triggered in craving. Why? Because he already had an underlying sense of fullness.

Greg Voisen
And it didn't hurt that he'd been a monk before that, right. So yeah, and he trained to train and the training on that, and you know, in our average person here, doesn't have that training to say, oh, boy, I'm going to show up for book signing. And it's empty. And I come home and I learned more from being empty. They'd be they'd be beating themselves up by the time they got to the hotel room. Yeah, right, right. Yeah.

Rick Hanson
So that's the third practice. The third practice is how do we gradually build up psychological resources through positive neuroplasticity to meet our needs? Without going into the red zone about it? Right? And second, how do we repeatedly internalize the felt sense of needs met enough and the moment you feel safe enough, in the moment, satisfied enough in the moment or connected enough in the moment, those are our three overarching fundamental needs, safety, satisfaction, and connection is big umbrella terms. And when you have those experiences, slow down and take into good? Okay, so those are the first three right, steadiness. lovingness wholeness, seems thinking up for more. Yeah, then come the next three. The next three. wholeness. Now notice, wholeness,

Greg Voisen
all right. Down is on. Yeah, wholeness,

Rick Hanson
involves that sense of accepting yourself fully, and gradually opening out to your mind as a whole. So what's unfolding in the moment, what's in the field of consciousness in the moment, can be taken as a whole. And when you take things as a whole, use, stop experiencing inner conflict, you don't feel divided internally, you know, everything is a single hole. And when that happens is there and there's good brain science, neuro psychology research on it, people get calmer, they feel more centered, they feel more of themselves. Homeless.

Greg Voisen
Would you also refer to that? Because some of the listeners, I'm sure, maybe no, it's like, it's just non duality.

Rick Hanson
Okay.

Greg Voisen
Okay. Yep. Would that be something that might describe that essence or that state?

Rick Hanson
This great question, I find around non duality that basically there are three kinds of non-duality. And I'll name them as I go through right here. Okay. And it gets really confusing when it jumps around. So one basic, fundamental kind of non duality, the first is awareness and its objects being one single field. Exactly, yes. Okay. We haven't yet gotten to God. But that's a good start. Alright, awareness and its objects, one single field awareness. Hold it simply, there's a sense of unfolding and abiding as a whole in the present, which then takes us to now knows, which is really interesting. How based on current brain science, how can you help yourself, be here now? Really be in the present. And it's interesting that if you're really in the present, the moment the next moment is appearing, it's endlessly being given to us. So you're living in the moment of creation of new time I'm continuously when you're really in the present, receiving the arising of the present, which is beautiful and extraordinary. And so then we can train so that more and more, we're in the present, we're not preoccupied with the past, we're not obsessing over the future, you know, you reflect on the past, and you plan for the future in ways that are appropriate, but you're not ruminating, you're not lost in thought about it. That's, that's now notice. And then we move into wellness, which is where it starts getting really wild, where you start feeling like you're one with everything. And that's a second kind of non duality, in which there's the distinction between self and world between person and world starts to break down. And it's in, it's in that territory right there. Around allness, that I do explore in the book, the release of the contraction of self, where you start to realize that oh, experiences of self occur, just like experiences of hearing, seeing, touching, and so forth occur. But all those experiences, as you put it, are empty of substance. They're empty of absolute existence. And increasingly, then you're able to take your own life less personally, and easier,

Greg Voisen
very easy to intellectualize and a little bit difficult to attain, no matter how many years you've been meditating, or what you've been doing to reach this allness. Yeah, I think I can only remember and all the years that I've been doing it maybe a couple of three times where I felt one with everything, right, like literally, yeah. Which is kind of what you're referring to, right?

Rick Hanson
Yes, and no. So right off the top, you're getting at, I think, what are called self transcendent experiences, right? Yep. Sometimes people call them non dual experiences, they have this quality that they tend to come on to someone fairly rapidly. The sense of being a separate self falls away, and the universe shines forth and radiant perfection.

Greg Voisen
And this is without any aid of a substance or a drug. That's what I'm saying.

Rick Hanson
Yeah, exactly. Those are actually an object of scientific study, because many people report having them. And there's more and more plausible neurology of what actually is going on, when someone drops into that mode, including, such as in Zen with Kensho or Satori, what is happening in the brain? And then based on what we're learning about these kinds of like fireworks experiences? How can we apply that to a more ongoing, everyday sense, in which more and more you recognize yourself as a local expression of the universe, you start to recognize yourself, there is a body here, this body here is distinct from this microphone here, etc. And these are just simply waves occurring side by side in the same ocean, because nature is water. And that can be gradually developed even without these breakthrough experiences. And again, the book goes into ways to develop that so that progressively, gradually, you're your mind more rested in that sense of, of a soft boundary between you and the world. And less sense of ego or taking things personally. Well, in

Greg Voisen
your work at the greater good center, you've done lots of research and I and I'm, I want to go to this neurology part. In the research that you've done, did you find any surprising overlaps between these ancient practices, which were talking about Eastern philosophy practices, and with the latest neurosciences and revealing what it revealed about the brain?

Rick Hanson
I'll give you two examples that for me are three actually that are super useful. Okay. And then maybe we'll get to the seventh practice, which is the ultimate timelessness we will. That's the third and ultimate kind of non duality. Yeah, so a couple of things here. And people can do it right now if they want to. As soon as you start to tune in to the internal sensations in your body, and you can if you could just be with them, rather than getting alarmed about some pain inside you. Like the sense of cool air flowing in as you inhale and slightly warmer air flowing out as you exhale. You know, the chest rising and falling the internal sensations of breathing, that draws on a part of your brain called the insula, which is on the two of them on the inside of the temporal lobes on both sides of your brain. And when you are engaging the insula, which is the basis for interior reception tuning in, that acts like a circuit break her and turns off activity in the default mode network, which is in the midline, slightly toward the rear and spreading, which is active when we're ruminating or engaging in mental time travel, worrying about the past, you know, worrying about the future, right? And so just that alone, that simple process of tracking internal sensations, brings you into the present, reduces the sense of self, the self contraction, and stops negative rumination. Wow, just like that. Now, throughout history, people have talked about tuning into your breath, blah, blah. Now we know more and more why it actually works.

Greg Voisen
Right? Well, so you did want to get to the seventh one, which is timelessness. And I'll go ahead,

Rick Hanson
I'll tell you two others really fast. Okay. Second, people can do a right now as well. If your gaze is close to your body, like you're kind of looking down or just out like at a keyboard that tends to support self referential perceptual processing. On the other hand, if you do it right now, if you lift your gaze, and you lift it to the horizon line, that starts engaging other circuits in your brain that open out into things as a whole, which also bring you into the present disrupts mental time travel, travel, disrupts self referential, obsessing Me, myself and I, right, and brings you more in the sense of openness with everything. Bingo, just that right there. So do you see it traditionally, like sky gazing? Or looking at the horizon, examining the evidence, just that itself has huge beneficial neurological effects? That's pretty darn cool.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, well, the brain dump and daydreaming too, you know, it's like getting everything out of your brain. Because it we used to call it the monkey mind. Right? It's still referred to as the monkey mind. But that's one of the things right. I mean, I, for me, that's a practice that I like to, to, to work on myself.

Rick Hanson
Yeah, if it works for you. So just that alone, the idea of lifting your gaze, a sense of things as a whole, that has an immediate effect, that reduces your stress reduces yourself contraction brings you into the present, more and more, we're understanding why that works.

Greg Voisen
Well, I also know that many of the people listening, they're there, to stay consistent in their practices is a hard thing to do. Right, I went up to do the meditation retreat, because it was a reboot for me. You know, it's like, you got to good to go do the reboot. And to be in this mindfulness field, and meditation really did reboot me, but based on the insights from neuro Dharma, how can one foster some lasting changes in these neural pathways? Because we're all looking for ways you talked about cravings? And I think, you know, look, we're always kind of playing this game between what our body wants to do and our mind wants to do. And what could be so much better for us, as a human soul living on this planet, to have more understanding, have more compassion, have more peace in our life, yet, we're always kind of seemed to be I wouldn't say always, but we're frequently kind of at odds with that. Because we're in a hurry, we there, you know, we've got these always on computers, we've got these notifications on our cell phones, we have cars that have big, huge screens in them now that are trying to navigate us and move us around and whatever. And and because of all that, I think it's really changed the neural pathways in our brain. Any thoughts on that?

Rick Hanson
Well, yeah, the brains designed to be changed by our our experiences, especially if they're negative, and involve other people, and happen when we're young. So we're designed to be changed and affected. And one of the takeaways for me from all the background I have is to is to appreciate how vulnerable we are. And to really focus on being a good friend of myself, which includes what is my attention resting on? There's a traditional saying, your mind takes its shape, from what it repeatedly rests upon? Well, what is our mind been resting on for the last five hours, 10 hours, right? And that's what takes its shape. So one of the huge takeaways has to do with my material on taking in the good and people can look up a paper I published called learning to learn from positive experiences. It's really about the importance of for me, three things essentially one, deal with the bad for sure. Weather, whatever it might be your own health issue, the fact you need to find a way to make a little more money, global warming, the person who's mad at you that sitting across from your dining room table, deal with the bad second turn to what is good, not to avoid the bad, but to grow strings to deal with the bad and for the sake of that good all together. And then third, taking the good when you turn toward an experience of steadiness, lovingness, fullness, wholeness now in this wholeness and timelessness, when you have those experiences, slow down, to receive them in yourself. I mean, we've known a number of Greg, you and I both I've known a lot of people who've had really cool spiritual insights, they've had really cool spiritual experiences, they're mostly the same, they're kind of about as unhappy and pressured and stressed, and you know, and unskillful with others as they've ever been, because they did not learn from those experiences. So that's one of the huge takeaways, when you're experiencing something useful. Slow down, be a friend yourself, bring a big spoon and gobble it up into yourself.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, you've previously written about resilience. And I think, you know, in the neuro Dharma book, I does it kind of build because you look at your books, many of them build on one another. Is this this book about resilience? This book about happiness? Just one, the relationship book. Yeah, now we're talking about neuro dharma. So based on these, this information, which are consistently studying, what are these principles around resilience? I know I did work with Mayo Clinic. We had Dr. smood. On and he did his videos around the resiliency and in the workplace. That's really valuable, right? Oh, yeah. To become more resilient. What would it be like for some listeners out there? Right now? They don't feel very resilient. They feel kind of beat up?

Rick Hanson
Yeah. Well, it's great. And one of the things awesome, if you look at people who are kind of pretty far along, like the Dalai Lama, Tecton, Han bless his memory, people and other traditions, too. They're very resilient. Right? They get stronger, through their training through their practices. And so these seven qualities, if you think about them, they really help people be resilient. Once thing that I've seen, I would say is really central, is to get on your own side. A lot of people are not on their own side, they're not for themselves. They're a harsh critic, and to find a way to shift from that inner critic to an inner guide. Like, right, they're super useful. Second, calm your body. It's bodies that freak out bodies, get anxious bodies, get mad bodies, get addicted, not suppress your body, but calm your body, you know, train a little bit and relaxation, train and centering, find things that are grounding, grounding, that's absolutely foundational. For resilience. I speak as a guy who's been in the serious trenches for a 50 year career,

Greg Voisen
how do you how do you actually help people when they're looking at their nervous system? You know, because we get chemical releases from this, you get inflammation from this, you have all kinds of problems, you get chronic pain from it. And it's really about learning how to, I wouldn't say control, because you're never going to control your nervous system. But at some point working with it, you've actually studied this. You've been working on this for years. What would you tell somebody today who's anxious, angry, upset? Sure, and is looking for ways to really calm this nervous system?

Rick Hanson
Yeah. First step is to step back from it and be with it, rather than be hijacked by classic mindfulness. It's the foundational step. But like the first step, it's often the most important of all, so step back. One way to help yourself step back is to name it. Name, entertainment is the same puts it, that's that. Second, obviously, deal with whatever conditions in your life or making a pissed off, or nervous or unsettled, or feeling. Not very good about yourself. That's really important. Nothing we're saying here. Replaces appropriate action, virtuous action in the world. Okay. Third, this one's so huge, Greg. So when people don't do turn toward what is the opposite, turn toward what is the medicine or the compensation for that. So for example, you're anxious. What are key psychological experiences you can turn toward that are strengths for feeling anxious, I'll list just a few. One is to be able to slow down and calm your body. A calmer body is a less anxious person. Okay? Second, observe the direct fact when it's true as a you usually is that you're basically all right right now. Just that, and let the reassurance of that settle in anxieties about the future. Notice that in the present, you're basically all right, right now, you can still be vigilant, you could still plan for the future, you can take threats into account that in a moment, you're basically Okay. All right. Third, really huge experiences of connections with others. We're scared monkeys were tribal animals exile on the Serengeti was a death sentence. So it's crucially important to look for the felt sense of connections with others, not just what you're receiving, but what you're giving, you know, looking to see what's good and other people finding friendliness toward them as appropriate. Funding knows you can be, you know, kind and loving toward those three things right there, calming the body, recognizing when you're alright, as you are much of the time and feeling connected, that will help a person become less anxious. And then when you're having those experiences, like I was saying before, learn from them, slow down for a breath, or longer to keep the neurons firing together. So they can start wiring together, feel the experience in your body. So it's not just a concept, but it's in your body, you feel reassured, because you're noticing you're alright right now, let's say. And then third, notice what feels good about it. You know what feels enjoyable, or wholesome or meaningful about, for example, feeling connected with other people. And as you do that, literally, you will be changing your brain and you will be hardwiring these inner strengths into your own body so that you can cope better with feelings of anxiety.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I think this whole reprogramming process, I remember Bruce saying, you know, in the theta state, you know, just before we go to sleep, what are we actually repeating to ourselves, and I think there's, there's a really big truth to this. In other words, if you're going to program your mind with crap, and then go lay down and sleep, and then your subconscious mind is going to be programmed with that you're only going to exacerbate these crazy feelings that you already have. But with the technological advances and tools like neuro implants, advanced meditation apps, how do you see the future of really kind of this personal growth and spiritual practices evolving? Because, you know, I just told you, before we came on that, you know, I went to Wisconsin with Richie Davidson, and been working with the Dalai Lama and has this mindfulness and meditation app. But the challenge is, is actually how to get people engaged in it. There's so many of these apps and keeping them engaged in it, to want to do it. Do you have any simple ideas for our listeners? There's, there's so many of these apps now. I mean, it's just it's, there's hundreds and hundreds of apps that people can download for their iPhone. Yeah.

Rick Hanson
Well, it's kind of a line about what's the most valuable exercise, it's the one you will actually do. Right. And so I think what's really important is to find a meditative practice that you'll actually do and the ones we actually do feel good. They're juicy, they're meaningful, they're alive. And sometimes we need to change them over time. Now, if an app helps you do that in a regular way, that's great, like Insight Timer will show you who else is meditating worldwide. Great stuff. Sam Harris has a whole program 10% happier. You know, others like that calm, you know, the list, the list goes on. Definitely. And my attitude about it as a guy who was trained traditionally, and teaches meditation routinely have a regular Wednesday night thing that's freely available to anybody. You can find out more about it on my website. I myself am very open to technology, I think great. And, you know, Neurofeedback hole. So you're,

Greg Voisen
you're saying if the tool works for you, yeah, the tool and if it doesn't, then find a different way and keep seeking to find something until you do.

Rick Hanson
But I'll see if I can add this. I know we're gonna finish in a second. But I really want to add this if I could, which is just this. I think a lot of people they quit too soon. You know, I've been at this a long time. I think it's maybe nicer. But it's made me blunter and I think a lot of people don't claim for themselves, the upper reaches of human potential. They don't give themselves the gift. without stressing about it. Hey, how far can you actually go in this life? Your one wild and precious life is Mary Oliver put it How far can you actually go? Why not go for it? Right. What for you is the calling of your heart for me the fundamental meditation is to rest your mind on what calls your heart. What's that call? and you have your heart for the highest happiness, right? For just fundamental restiveness and the ultimate ground of reality. Does your heart call you in that direction, listen to that calling. And on the basis of that calling, it may be appropriate to commit 10 minutes a day, to some kind of contemplative practice. Maybe bring your mind back to your practice a handful of times every day, on top of whatever you do each day. That's, that's more formal and grounding. But give yourself the gift of almost like imagination, without stressing about, you know, the heaven realms and becoming a saint and all that, why not I the great teachers, all of them, my book starts out as you know, I'm going to draw my background in the mountains with with friends who would turn toward me higher up on the trail or higher up on the rock face as we were climbing it. They would beckoned me onward in much the same way. All the great teachers, all the great saints and sages, basically, they're, they're a little farther up the mountain, the mountain of awakening, okay. And they're turning toward us with a gentle smile and a beckoning hand saying, Come join me. Come on, keep going. And to be fair to that,

Greg Voisen
there's a lot to be said for that, Rick, you know, I I don't know if you're aware of this. But I just finished co authoring a book called the precipice of life. Life lessons learned from the Mountaineers edge and you were talking about mountains? Yeah. Well, what I got to do is part of it was interviewed 23 people who basically said that, if you're not living on the edge or facing death, you're not living life. And I'll see it repeated itself because these people did the highest seven summits in the world, right? It was, it was this wasn't just regular going up some regular pathway someplace. This was, you know, Mount Everest, and Vinson and all kinds of places that they did. And I learned a lot from those mountain climbers, and persistence and Sherpas. And the lessons that you learn in gearing, your gear, and all of the the thing lessons you can but for those who are kind of inspired by our conversation, and want to dive deeper into your practices, to find happiness, higher levels of happiness, you said, you've dealt with this. A lot of your own life was not unhappy. What first steps or practices would you recommend, after they finish reading your book, neuro Dharma, and they're looking for resources. So I'm going to say the biggest resources is his website, and that is Rick Hansen. And that's spelled h a n s o n will have it.net. We will have a link to that. But you go there, there's all kinds of hypertext links on his website and things free for my listeners to find that they wouldn't find anywhere else. So again, I'm going to repeat it. It's Rick Hansen, ha N S. O n.net. He also just told you that he's leading a meditation on Wednesday evenings, and I'm sure he'd love people to reach out and join him on Zoom. Is that where you're doing it?

Rick Hanson
As That's right, that's right, really offered. You can check out the recordings, you can see information about it on my website.

Greg Voisen
Great. So any parting words for the listeners who are out there like sitting on the end of their chairs going I like this Rick Hansen guy want to know more?

Rick Hanson
And that's really kind of my parting thought is basically go for it while staying grounded. Right? And timelessness. The last one is about honoring the sense that so many great teachers have spoken about, of a kind of mysterious field of timeless possibility in which the Big Bang universe is actually occurring and unfolding. But if we can become more and more aware of that field of timelessness, what the Buddha called the Deathless, the unconditioned, maybe with qualities of awareness and benevolence, even embedded in it mysteriously, that's sort of the ultimate refuge. So I just wanted to definitely name that. But otherwise, you know, keep on rockin in the free world, right?

Greg Voisen
Well, I love I love songs you still consuming and go to this podcast being well, you'll see it on his website, check it out. He and his son Forrest Hansen, do that podcast and that's another podcast with more opportunities for you to do. Plus he's got a courses, right. So if you want to really dive in, and take a course, they're ranging in price from $49 to $450. They're all across the board

Rick Hanson
with scholarships for anyone who wants one base rate. Great.

Greg Voisen
So I am going to, again, go to his website, check all this out. It's an opportunity for you to learn more, Rick, Namaste to you. Thank you for hanging out my personal growth. Thanks for spending your time with my listeners. And parting the wisdom around neuro Dharma something that when I saw the book I was like yes let's go do Neuro Dharma.

Rich Hanson
Thank you, Greg.