Greg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth and Linda, the listeners know me, they just don't know you. But we are going to be stinked speaking with Linda Rossetti about her new book called Dancing with Disruption: A New Approach to Navigating Life's Biggest Changes. And the reality is all of us have dealt with changes in our life at some point, and we get an opportunity. How are you doing from Boston, Massachusetts this afternoon?

Linda Rossetti
I'm doing great, Greg, and thank you so much for inviting me to come and talk with you. I'm really excited about it.

Greg Voisen
Well, I can see from your background that you have a lot of fun, look at all those pictures and flowers. That's what keeps you there, and little hearts, and pictures of all the people that are important in your life. So that's a good sign right there is that that's telling me who you are. But I'm gonna let the listeners know a tad bit about you. She's a Harvard MBA pioneering researcher dedicated her career to advancing our understanding of personal and organizational transformation. And we'll be speaking about both today. Through her work, she creates new conversations about shifts that occur repeatedly over the arc of our lives and involve our thinking about who we are, despite popular beliefs to the contrary, that she now understands such times about people as normal, common, and a signal for meaningful growth. She is the author of this book, but she's also a researcher. And she's no stranger to transformation. Looking back, she says she sees transformation as a topic that is long embraced in business settings, through many of her career stops, for example, as the executive VP of Human Resources Administration for Fortune 500 companies, Iron Mountain, and she was also tasked with integrating more than 200 acquisitions into one Iron Mountain, a major global transformation initiative. Her publications include two books dancing with disruption, and women and transaction she hosts a podcast showed called destination unknown, unwelcome guests and luminaries such as the 2015 Nobel Prize recipient. How do you say his name?

Linda Rossetti
Uh, we Dad, it's a woman. We did push me, okay. And it was him. She was involved in the Arab Spring, right. She was a negotiator, and TA for the Arab Spring. She's very

Greg Voisen
proud. I apologize for not knowing how to pronounce that name. But it's, it's a tricky one. And then the NPR marketplace veteran. She's been around Thrive global, and the transition Institute LLC. And you can learn more about Linda and all of her research work and her books and what she does, and the tools for you that she's got. It's Linda Rossetti, it's l-i-n-d-a-r-o-s-s-e-t-t-i.com. So, enough about you. Let's talk about what you like talking about most, which is disruption. Right. And I think you're actually the primo expert on disruption. So in the introduction to this book, you know, you speak about a woman by the name of Jen now. And you mentioned, she and four others joined you to speak about major changes in their lives. And you found these common threads about what happened to people going through major changes in their life. You have since interviewed 270 individuals and written several books, which I just said about the subject. What is the common thread that you found happened when people are faced with major changes in their lives? You know about the round that coffee with Janelle and the other people?

Linda Rossetti
You know, first of all, Greg, I am so happy that you are interested in this because I think it's something as you said we are all bumping into in some way. And the common threads really. There are many right I think that you allude to what was the beginning of my formal research, I invited all these people in to have coffee with me and all sorts of settings. And Janelle and a couple of others joined me for breakfast one morning and each of them went around the room to introduce themselves and Janelle is somebody who had been a nurse. And she, like so many people are on the frontlines in the healthcare arena was just in a point where she was struggling with her commitment to that field. It's like, you know, I really don't know what's wrong with me, right? So I immediately thought something was wrong. And you know, she said, I'm having trouble showing up. You know, I mean, paying attention and bringing the energy I watched once did having the excitement of my job, it just seems to be gone. And all the people in the room, you know, they're all from very different circumstances, different ages, different occupations. They're all kind of nodding their head in agreement, all of them found themselves in this very unfamiliar place. And so as I mentioned, you know, I saw patterns in that, right, there are patterns in the way people were thinking about what was occurring, right. Few of them had any vocabulary to apply to the shifts that were going on, right, most of them in the absence of being able to define what was happening, instantly thought of negativity, like there's something wrong with me, or there's some deficit in some way that they have to go address. So the first pattern was lack of vocabulary. But then the other things that were really interesting was how common it was the experience that they were all talking about, went through similar phases, even though their circumstances different, you know, Janelle was having a struggle because of a job related connection. Another woman who was in the room had a challenge, because she had a recent very, very sad breakup. You know, another person in the room was very early in her career and was struggling because this dream she had always kind of thought of getting into heaven turned out the way she always thought of, and she was like, wait a minute, what's going on? And then, you know, and the final woman that joined us that morning was somebody who had never been in the workforce, or hadn't been for a long time, I should say. And she was having some challenges thinking about who she was, and what was next because she had cared for an aging sibling for almost a dozen years, and he had recently died. And so all these people had had these moments where their connection to how they thought of themselves, was broken in some way. And they struggled to really think about how, what was occurring, and what they should do about it. And that kind of Greg, that piqued my interest. I was like, wait a minute, why is no one talking about this? Because as you listened, even though their circumstances different, as I said, they were going through the same, the same process. And I found that to be fascinating. I know, that's, that's the quirky person in me. But I will not.

Greg Voisen
So I mean, as a researcher, you which you say you are, it's not quirky, you know, you look at the kinds of circumstances in the common threads, that kind of lead, or at times of major change that people go through. And they greet, what you called it in the book, this uncertain feeling, which was is more empowering than where they were, right? How do they face this? Or how do you help individuals learn more to face this with more confidence? Because the reality is, is that I know, I've been through plenty of uncertain times in my life, and what happens to you whether it's financial, or it's marriage, or it's a sick child, or it's, it's whatever, you can name off lots, lots of them. I think our default system is to resist, we just get we kind of like, push it out, we want to push it away, because we don't want to deal with it. It's like we'll go underneath the rug, you know, and disappear. And so frequently, people hide, they hide out, they end up drinking, they end up doing all kinds of extramarital affairs, whatever it might be, to hide some pain that happened as a result of the change. What can you do to help people understand that that's what they're doing? And to help them make the transition? Well,

Linda Rossetti
There are two things right. One is, I believe Information is power. Right? So in trying to get people to be aware that they're stalling, retreating or disengaging, right, as you've just described, it is really to give them a new context so they can place their experience in this new set of information. And I find that that instantly deflates the level of anxiety way down. Right. So the first part of the book that you referenced at the top of the hour, was all is all about giving people new context. When I share new vocabulary, right, we talk about what's happening. We also talk about how that relates to growth in adult life. So we I give people some new vocabulary, talk a little bit about the science and the technology around what happens when adults go through major shifts so that people have this entirely new understanding. And then the second part of the book really is all about the techniques that that emerged from my research that I tested, right, you had mentioned I had 270 people participate in the core part of the research, but 80 of those joined me in some extensive testing of techniques that can be available to help people navigate these periods of instability in their lives. And so you know, the two buckets that I offer as people say, you know, well, what am I supposed to do? The first is really, you know, in a very accessible way through stories, giving people a new context on how to think about these periods of instability. And the second is to offer them some techniques that they can deploy immediately to help them navigate what can be emotionally very challenging times.

Greg Voisen
Did you find that during these times that, you know, we talked about these neural pathways in our brain that are wired in a certain way. And obviously, your research had to stumble across this, this is it is a challenge, because we basically have used the default mechanism associated with that, and it is around being able to rewire and relook at something, if you would speak with the listeners about how they can respond to disruption, the differences between the two responses, which are trained or transition, right, so if one thing is change, the other is transition, and why we habitually reach for change over transition. You know, one is like dressing, I find something, there's this old cliche, you've heard it, you can grow through something or you can go through something, right. And a lot of people just like to go through something they don't like to grow in the process. Transition is growing through it, not going through it,

Linda Rossetti
most definitely. And right onto one of the most interesting things I found kind of like blow your socks off kind of learning at the beginning part of my research, and that is, we are conditioned to use two very important terms interchangeably in our lives. And those words are change and transition. But when we find ourselves at a moment of disruption, right, and the disruption that I care about, hat involves those times when our thinking about who we are gets broken or disconnected in some way, right. So with those moments, change and transition mean very different things. Changes are typically alterations or variations on us static or intact self-concept, right? So I might, you know, unexpectedly lose my job at Bank of America, but be okay, in the group, let's say I was in finance, I was in finance, I'm okay, in that I may seek to go replace that job, you know, maybe I'm gonna go look for a job in finance at Google. Right, I would be making an alteration or variation on what is effectively a stable self-concept, right? Very important. When we opt for transition at a time of disruption, we are actually welcoming instability at for a time, and really exploring a shift in our self-concept. And that, you know, those two differences are pretty substantial. Because when, when we choose transition, right, we are recognizing those typically occur when there is a change in what we hold that what what holds value and meaning to us. And those things really require us to reexamine the assumptions upon which we rest our sense of self. And so the words are very important. Unknown to me before I sat down and talked with all these people, but they actually fit to what you were talking about early on, because transitions when we're willing to reexamine the assumptions that underlie our sense of self, we are really exploring what is developmental growth?

Greg Voisen
Well, the other thing is transformational, right with so we've talked about transition, and now transformational growth. People hear the word personal growth, they hear my show is called inside personal growth. It probably should be called transformational growth. And how has this helped? How does this help the people that you work with whether you're training a coach, or you're training somebody, shift their beliefs, their values and expectations, and the beliefs if we're going to, we're going through transition to embrace transformative growth? Right? So again, it's a matter of us learning in the process, learning a new way, when you transform, you learn something new. When you change, I wouldn't say you always do that. I would say you modified your behavior to meet a new circumstance, but you didn't really embrace this maybe psychologically.

Linda Rossetti
Yeah, it's really it's such an important distinction you're making and I love the work that you do, Greg, because growth is so important, right? It is. It is something that even though we all we pay lip service to we actually hit in the other direction when we're given the opportunity and that is well documented, right? And so the conversation that I try to start with folks through this work is really to help them understand what growth means in an adult context. And typically when people enter adulthood, they define their expectations and definition for who they are by external factors, right, so things that are, you know, in our surroundings, so the communities we live in the occupations, we choose the schools, we attend our families, our religious beliefs, and loads more. But when we enter adulthood, we're typically creating our sense of self based on inputs from that kind of personal ecosystem. When we have opportunities to grow over the arc of our lives, what we're typically doing is we're taking those inputs and we're reevaluating it, we're saying, does that one still fit. And sometimes what our analysis says is, you know, I've outlived the useful life of that one, right? And so what's happening in growth is we move away from external definitions entirely to say our definition of who we are. And we move to this blend, that leaves more room for those things that hold value and meaning to us. It isn't as if we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater, right? We're still we're building on the original assumptions that we had. But we leave room to disengage from some to refine others to welcome new. And there's wonderful work that came out of UC Berkeley, a woman by the name of Ravenna hellsten, did work over many years, she studied long cohorts of people, you know, one group lasted 50 years. And she describes this progression of going from externally defined to a more internally anchored sense of self as a recentering. And I love that word recentering. Because that really is what the growth process is in the adult lifespan, right? It is this constant recentering of really what holds value and meaning to us and how that shapes who we are. And I think that that's really the thing that I found through my research that was so fascinating that many people responded to disruption with a change. And in that many of them hoped to get something that was transformative. But in fact, when we choose Change, we're, we're reinforcing an existing self-concept. And when we go into this transformative phase, what we're doing is we're, we're opening ourselves to something that will be a recentering, right, we'll be welcoming new ways to think about ourselves in the world, which would be a derivative of where we started. And so this, this pattern of growth can happen repeatedly throughout adult lives. You know, and if you look at the scholarly research in this, it says that many, many adults don't write, they don't opt at a point of conflict, you know, from a disruption of any of any flavor, it can be good news, it can be challenging news. Oftentimes, we don't have the vocabulary and know how to choose that transformative option. And you know, my work is all about starting a conversation so that more and more people can in fact, make that choice.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, you speak about a topic that's been written about extensively across time. And I remember reading a book, Linda, many, many years ago called Immunity to Change put out by MIT, you've probably read it. But you know, what doctors found is if someone were to have a heart attack, and the doctor says, hey, you need to change your diet, you need to change your exercise plan, you need to do this you need. So the doctor is informing them of a new prescription, a new prescriptive way of being, they found within less than three months, the people were back to the same old patterns of smoking a pack a day and doing whatever and on the same track. And look, we wouldn't have all these programs that exist out here that we do today around how to transform ourselves. What if it goes from weightwatchers to something else, if people were not actually having a challenge with us, so the whatever thing it is you need to change in your life and you've got a great story about a 55 year old cancer survivor, I rent a roof and you share a story and you speak to the point about our goal is not to eliminate, overcome or ignore resistance, but to learn how to be successful in its presence. Right? And I just said a lot of people will resist that go under the cover though. Push it back there, whatever. How can we be in the presence of these emotions, which are driving us and make positive transformation simultaneously?

Linda Rossetti
I'm so happy you asked me that question. And you're referring to a book that I love which I cite in my book right Immunity to Change had just written by Robert Keegan and Lisa Lascaux Leahy and they looked at why is it that we you know, kind of askew these opportunities to grow. And Araya was really very an interesting person, right? You know, she, she recognized that even though she had this great desire to move forward, she was terrified. And there's other wonderful research that didn't come out of MIT. It actually came out of Columbia, by a gentleman by the name of Jack mesereau. And I use his work often in my, in my studies, he said that there's really two levels of activity that have to happen when we make meaningful growth in adult life. The first level is very practical, right? Araya had to figure out okay, I'm beaten cancer. Now what right now? What is the practical thing? What can I do? Right, because she had had had some health issues that were going to require her to change her career. But what we often ignore is the emotional level, right, because what mesereau and others including Keegan and Lascaux lay who are on to is that we typically have an intense emotional reaction to changes in our self-concept, right? It is as if our emotional system is saying, hold on, don't make that change. What you know, you might blow this one, we don't want you to risk this, right? So our emotions really, you know, fire to work against us. And so long winded answer to your question is that part of what this book does is it introduces a technique, a pneumonic called Hale hai L, that was designed to help people reframe the emotions that occur when we move away from a stable self-calm concept, and allow them not to diminish or ignore the emotions, but be with them, but still make progress on that practical level. And reframing is one of those words, Greg that, you know, it's, you know, it's like a word like kindness and vulnerable. It's everywhere, right? So I want to take a minute just to tell no, let's

Greg Voisen
talk about what those four steps are. Because the pneumonic, hail, each one of those is a step. And I think this is a very important thing, while we're talking about it, you know, whether people are taking notes or not, it's not important, they can go get the book, here it is, the hill is in there. Also, there's exercises as well, that the people can do, but speak with us about mnemonics because it is important and it is a four step process that can be utilized.

Linda Rossetti
Yes. And so the first the you know that the pneumonic all operates on this notion of reframing right? It's as if Greg, you and I went outside of your office and I said, okay, draw that skyscraper. And we were standing on the sidewalk and you sketched it. And then I said, okay, well, now we're going to take a ride in the elevator from the building across the street go up on its roof, and I said, okay, now draw me that same skyscraper. And the view of that same, that familiar skyscraper would be radically different. And that's what Hale helps us do. Right? It helps us first name the emotions, right? We say, okay, let's just honor the emotions as being present, right? We give them we give them an opportunity to occupy space and time, right, you know, so Araya, who's saying, you know, I'm frozen, I don't know what to do, right? And we say, okay, you know, we asked her to help us understand what emotions were present. And, you know, fear for her expressed itself, in anxiety, it expressed itself in sleepiness is it expressed itself in sadness to for her because it was it was something that for her was, was a very debilitating experience that refer to a lot of other times in her life, right? So, so this notion of honoring, simply naming the emotions is really the first step of the mnemonic. And then each of the subsequent steps, Greg, walk somebody through this ability to be able to take that skyscraper that we're looking dead onto, and come at it from a different level. So instead of the emotions having power over us, all of a sudden, we can be with those emotions, and not be as affected. Right. You know, I oftentimes describe it to people like, you know, for me, sadness is a common emotion, right? And when it's active, I feel like I'm hanging onto the end of a rope and it can, like, flail me around in any direction. But when I can reframe it, I can drop that rope on the ground right next to me, and it's still there. It's not like it's gone. But I'm not whipped around willy nilly by whatever its presence wants me to do. And that's what this pneumonic is trying to do. So hail represents four different sets of questions to ask ourselves to help us really diffuse the power of an emotion over us.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and for those of you when you get the book, you'll see it in there. It's again, you're going to be able to reframe, like you just said, sadness, instead of whipping you around is the rope that sitting down next to you not that the emotion is gone, but it's now been and tamed, how's that? Maybe tamed is a better word. And you know, I appreciate the perspective you take in the book about resetting our expectations. And you state that resetting expectations, increases our awareness of the expectations we carry, and the sources upon which we draw, to set those expectations. And you know, from, from an Eastern philosophy, Buddhist philosophy, it's nonattachment to expectations. And it can be a trap for people, let's face it, it's one of those that set you up for disappointment. You figure something's gonna go some way, and you have an expectation for it happening this particular way. And it doesn't go that way. It goes a different way. Or it never happens at all, based upon whatever happened in life, speak with the listeners about how to successfully reset and expectation after it didn't actually resolve itself, the way that they thought it was going to resolve itself. You know or manifest itself. Let's put it that way. Maybe that's better.

Linda Rossetti
Yeah, you know, so resetting expectations, and, you know, reframing emotions, those are two of the four steps in the book that I outlined for someone who actually does want to go through a transformative process, right? They have to reframe emotions, they have to reset expectations, they have to reimagine their identity, reconstitute the communities that support them, right. So those four steps are part of it. And this notion of resetting expectations is kind of multipart, right? The first is we need to kind of bring our awareness to the expectations we carry. And that in and of itself is not like a nanosecond. Okay, let's just sit down and write them out. Right? Because very often, we're not entirely sure, right, there was one woman who participated in my research. And she said, you know, I've always walked around with this notion of, I want to be a general manager by the time I'm 40. And that helped great meaning to her. Right. And so this this, she, in her late 30s, lost a job, you know, an unexpected layoff. And that brought her into the world of my research. But ultimately, when she really stepped back and thought of the expectations, they went far beyond the I want to be a jam by M 40. Right, they had an awful lot to do with her financial expectations, with her expectations about being settled in terms of a family and having some, some real estate ownership, right, it had many, many, many layers. So the first step always is really, and there's some techniques in the book to do this, is to really try to shed the light on the expectations that we carry for ourselves. And there's some like, you know, like I said, they're top of mine, we've held them for a long time. But it's good to drain the swamp a little bit, like bring the water level down a little bit. So we have a wider picture of what those expectations are that we're carrying. And then we stepped to the, you know, stepped to the plate and say, does that hold water anymore? Right? Because this woman, you know, who said, you know, I want to be a GM by the time I'm 40, she's like, you know, I'm not sure that matters anymore, right? So that in and of itself, it's not binary, it's like, oh, I have an expectation I don't, there's an enormous process that I share with everyone in the book about what it means to actually let go of an expectation, and then then reimagine and reset a new one, right? Because as much as we're letting go of one, we need to then kind of cultivate our new expectation. And there's a gentleman whose name is Pascal, whose story I tell in the book, and he's somebody who came out as gay in his mid-20s. And he tells a wonderful story in the book, because he's like, you know, for a long time, you know, I was aware of my expectation, right? I was, I was living as a straight man. And I realized that that wasn't the case. And she's he said, you know, at one point, I decided, I'm not going to live with this within this expectation anymore, right? So it's like, I came out, and you know, and I came out in the layered way, and it was a cascade, and I first told my family and on and on, and he shares that cascade, which is a very important step for him. But I think the most incredible part of his story is what he tells from that point onward. And he said, you know, then I had, he's like, okay, then I stepped into this new big world of the gay community. And I had to reset my expectations there. And he's, like, you know, as much as I had to do when I was willing to let go, I had to kind of almost go through this trial, which says, okay, well, I think I'm in this segment of the community. And, and it was almost like a pilot proof proceed like, well, does that really fit and yes, maybe not entirely, but pretty much and okay, I'll move again. And there's an important process that happens when people move in the direction of resetting expectations is that when we're operating without expectations, right, when we choose to let go, it's a really unstable time in our lives. And some of us are great, we can look forward and say, oh, I'll be great. You know, Pascal, I'll be great once again into this community. And he can use the expectations of the gay community to kind of tamp down his anxiety about being in his unstable place. But very often people look back, right? So even though they're moving forward, right, they're saying, Okay, I'm going to be in this new community, I'm going to look back to that person, I was in a straight world and use that, to evaluate whether I'm being successful or not, or my, you know, my, my safety, and that's what trips a lot of people up and they retreat, right. So that even though they have good intentions, they're gonna move off in this direction, when they're making that kind of initial set of steps. They're using outdated, previously held assumptions to evaluate their progress. And there's, well,

Greg Voisen
let's, let's face it, that's a great example, and maybe an extreme one, and maybe not, but on the same token, the discomfort associated with it, the fear associated with it, are certain elements that anybody that has an expectation, right of him having been straight, and then moving to somebody gay, because that has to do with his, his sexuality, his whole identity. And, you know, you ask a question, like, who am I? And what is my story? And the running narrative is a big part of what we start to believe about ourselves, and the world around us. And I think the narrative is something that runs just like the narrative of him being in the straight world versus him running a narrative of being in the LGBTQ community. What advice would you give our listeners who are faced with a disruption as a tool to reframe their story and their running narrative?

Linda Rossetti
Yes, absolutely. And the narrative plays such a big role, because by the way, we're the first audience for our narrative, right? As we're making radical shifts. We listen to our stories, and it calms us down as we're using it to tell others right. And so what I found in my research is that the most reliable way to reset or reimagine an identity is to, to think about the stories we tell about ourselves. In society, we're very often conditioned to use a chronological architecture for our stories, right? You know, Greg, if I asked you to introduce yourself to me, you know, you would perhaps step through the important points in your life, be them professional or personal or an amalgam of both. But they would largely be chronological if we went and listened to the greater public. And what I learned is that if we use this concept, these shifts to value and meaning which underlie that growth progression that we talked about earlier in the into the interview, if we use those to anchor our stories, that can be an incredibly illuminating process to help us reimagine our identity. Right? For example, if I while

Greg Voisen
they're running dialogue changes completely. Right? And it's not like a sequential thing. It's like, who am I, you know, you don't we'll just say, a podcaster, you're gonna think of it in a much bigger light. I'm helping change the world, one podcast at a time. You know, through interviewing people like Linda, it, there's a whole difference in that to saying I'm a podcaster versus saying, what are you doing? What is your why, right? I think that that's the other thing, it gets to purpose in our why and who we are and people exploring those deep inner regions that don't always come out when the running dialogue goes forward. Right? If expressed?

Linda Rossetti
Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, sometimes people read the chapter in the book that talks about this and think that this is teaching them how to do an introduction. And while you can make changes in your introduction, what it is trying to do is shine a light on this notion of identity and how we think about ourselves, right? And we have all sorts of labels off of our identity. And this This technique is really intended to help you reach beyond the labels, right and begin a new conversation with yourself and as we spit step through a transformative period in our lives, we really do have to continually reimagine this notion of how we think about ourselves and have found this you know, this trick about stepping away from chronology and we imagining this story using different modes. markers as a really reliable way to begin that conversation.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, it's, I did a training course called think wrong. I know it sounds strange, but it's really not around creativity. And I think that and I know that for a creative person to be able to express themselves in a new unique way. And a lot of it, you know, it needs to be visual, right? Because then you go and you take it, people say, well, Mind Mapping, well, if I can mind map something, I can take visual images and put them around and it becomes easier for me to see. And I don't care what kind of learner you are, whether you're auditory, visual, or kinesthetic, the reality is, those type of tools really help you in making a big shift at the way in which you look at something the world looks much more expansive, than it would in a linear way, which is what you were saying, I owe him great voice. I was born here, I went there, and did this. I did that, right? And so many CEOs of companies need to learn how to tell better stories. And I would say, it's the story or the narrative that you keep telling yourself that you begin to wave. The other thing is, you know, as I said to you before, you know, you don't have to believe everything you think, just because you thought it doesn't mean you've got to believe it. Now, because the book is filled with great advice. One of the accolades on the back is Marshall Goldsmith, a very good friend and somebody who's been endorsing books but endorsed her book, I would recommend that you go out and get a copy of this book. We've given you the website, there's going to be a link to Amazon as well. But Linda, you know, lots of great advice in this book, what I always end my podcasts in this way, because I think practical advice is so important. Right? What are the three things that you would leave the listeners with, about coming to truth, quote, unquote, about themselves? And transformation?

Linda Rossetti
The three things I'd say is one, take the time to recognize the choices that you have, right? When you are in a period of disruption. Are you going to reach for change? Or are you going to reach for transition, and being aware of our desire, the familiarity to a stable self-concept? That awareness alone can help us ask a new question of ourselves? And that is number one biggest victory of all, if we can simply ask ourselves a new question, we're already advancing down the path. Number two is recognize right bring our awareness to the characteristics of what happens during this period, right? We talked about emotions, right? Sometimes we're just like, oh, you know, I'm, I'm so anxious, right? Recognize that emotions are simply that emotions, right. And if we bring our awareness to that we recognize they're not traits. They're impermanent. And they actually, if we can reframe them, they can become Oracle's not obstacles for our progress. And ultimately, I would, the last thing I would say, is to keep in our hearts, that transformative periods in our lives, while not easy, 99 times out of 10, say out of 100, that these are expansive, incredibly productive times that can bring us great joy and peace. And it isn't necessarily the easiest path. But it is one that is orders of magnitude more valuable in altering the trajectory of our lives. And that is proven out not only in my research, but in hundreds of other scholars who have studied this. And so I would encourage people to continue to get information so that they can embark on that kind of a course because it will be meaningful and productive for them.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, look at the website, and you've got tools for people. And one of them is the podcast, the big shift our identity, the courage to rethink our labels, and opportunity for more. And this is a destination unknown with Linda, and I would encourage people to go just click on those, because then you can hear more about Linda and the podcast. The other thing she's got is join me for dishing on a disruption. With Linda Rosetta as well. You can click on there to get more information. Everyone is welcome. You say it's a 45 minute interactive event. So do sign up there or get more information about it. Linda It's been a pleasure having you on the show. For my listeners again. We've been on whips, I gotta go over here. We got to go dancing with disruption. It's Linda Rosetti. We'll have a link to Amazon for the book, we'll have a link to our website. Please check it out. Linda, a pleasure learning about how I can even personally me navigate disruption, better and embrace transformation and not just change. And I think for people who are really on the learning line, if you're on the learning line, and you don't want to have it happened the same way. It's like Groundhog's Day, over and over and over again. You literally need to go to the transformational growth side the transformational line, you need to learn what it is you're actually doing. And what she's doing is giving you a much better way to approach disruption and to not be in the proverbial cycle of Groundhog's Day. Any last words, Linda?

Linda Rossetti
Greg, thank you so much for having me and allowing me to chat with you about this.

Greg Voisen
I appreciate you so much. Namaste. Thanks for being on.

Linda Rossetti
Thank you.