Welcome back to another episode of Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of inside personal growth. And joining me from the San Francisco Bay Area is author, Dina Smith. Dina, Good day to you. How are you doing? Good day. I'm great. How are you I'm doing wonderful. And it's a pleasure having you on Luis. Luis Velazquez was the gentleman that introduced us. He was on the show, and for all of you who don't know who he is. I guess you guys are kind of colleagues and know each other from the coaching arena, and he did a great podcast with us on his book about resilience, so we'll make a reference to that as well. And I always appreciate the referrals. So Dina, I'm going to let the listeners have an idea of who you are. Before we dive into the book itself, we are going to be talking about her book called emotionally charged the subtitle of that book is how to lead in the new world of work. Actually, she doesn't have a copy sitting in front of her, nor do I, because it's, it's a new book. It's going to be released here in February, correct? Yeah. So she's excited. I'm excited for her, because I know what it's like to get a new book. So Dina is an executive coach to senior leaders and teams at world leading brands such as Adobe, Netflix, gap, Dropbox, Stripe and numerous high growth companies. A former business executive herself, she's the founder and CEO of say it for me again. I don't want to mispronounce it. Cognitas coaching and helps leaders with their and their teams reach new heights of success. She's written over 60 articles for Harvard Business Review, Fast Company and Forbes on leadership and career success, and is frequently featured in international media outlets such as Wall Street Journal, Business Insider, Newsweek and the BBC. She's an author of this brand new book, which is Oxford University Press, 2025 as we said, how to lead in is, well, it's called, emotionally charged how to lead in the new world of work. Well, we're everybody who listens to this podcast, from all of my LinkedIn listeners, to anybody that's out there, the 1000s that do listen to this, the new world of work has been upon us for a while and and it wasn't just COVID. I think a lot of people say, Oh, well, you know, COVID is what changed it? Yeah, it changed the dynamics, I think, a little bit Dina and the way in which we work remotely, and now we're seeing more people come back together again. So really, what motivated you to write emotionally charged, and was there any personal experience or any pivotal moment that inspired this book's creation. I know you want to disseminate this knowledge to the listeners and to the readers, but was there anything in particular for you?

There were actually sort of multiple factors that came together sort of somewhat simultaneously that motivated the creation of this book. And first, I would be so fully remiss if I didn't mention that I you

have a co author, and that was my fault. I should have said her name. And yeah,

no, it's okay. It's okay because she's sort of integral to the story, so I will give her all of the kudos she deserves, but my co author is a person named Dr Alicia Grande. She heads up the organizational psych department at Penn State, and she and I together wrote an article for HBr called the emotional labor of leadership, and it went absolutely viral and and, you know, it becoming more and more aware to me that the whole emotional life of a leader was something that was really under recognized, under acknowledged, all of the demands that exist there in the emotional realm, and that was really validated by the extreme reception that this article had.

Why do you think what excuse me for Aspen. But why do you believe at this point in history, you know, we look at this 2024 23 whenever you wrote it, that this really charged audiences to want to read that and understand more about what was going on with the emotions of leaders.

Well, first off, you know, largely the audience was leaders, and you know, I believe they finally felt seen like what it's like to actually walk in the shoes of a leader, like the demands and expectations that exist for them, that that really are squarely, sort of in this space of managing their own emotions, as well as managing the emotions in the workplace, like They are chief architects of of sort of the emotional culture of their team and all of this, it doesn't exist on their job description. Like nobody talks about this, and this is such a critical element of their ability to succeed. And we're not really. We're not talking about just emotional intelligence. But if you think about what leaders are expected to do, right? Like rally that team to, sort of, like, burn the midnight oil so they can get that project done. They're expected to sort of help a team member who is struggling with task related and now even personal challenges, right? If there's conflict on the team that can't get resolved. They're they're sort of expected to step in and soothe tempers and and navigate that conflict. Um, they're expected to inspire. They're expected to reduce uncertainty and and reduce stress levels so people can be productive. And they're expected to manage their own emotions while they're doing all of this. So there's just, like, such an abundant amount of emotion work that leaders are expected to do. And, you know, as you alluded early on, like the pandemic changed things. But what I like to think about is it really accelerated, you know, trends that were already occurring in in the workplace, yeah, um, and so. So what we have, though now today are far higher demands and fire, far higher expectations on leaders, many of which are like, kind of pulling on their emotional resources.

You know, it's, it's interesting. It's listening to podcasts that we just broke yesterday with Vern Harnish, got a company called Scaling up, and it's a, it's a big operation for helping companies scale. And he was making a comment Dina about the culture of a company and how to keep people emotionally, I would say, high, engaged, you know, like, hey, you know, some of these companies, like, every Friday there's a there's a dinner, right? We get together together, you know, personally, we go have a barbecue. We go do these kind of things, which we've known for a long time, but I think then the, you know, he used an example of like SpaceX, so when the rocket went up and came down and landed, how emotionally charged the people were to actually have a huge win like that, Right? And I think part of this is about, how are people getting these wins, and then how frequently, and then, how is that keeping them engaged in the work they're doing? So what do you think from your own emotional journey? Because, look, you've been there, you were working your own company and so on, has influenced the themes and the tools discussed in the book.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, my gosh, if I kind of go back to my own emotional journey, and I don't think it's too unique, and by that, what I mean to say is there were a variety of different kind of factors that led me to believe that sort of, you know, emotions really didn't have, like, much of a place for me, like earlier in my career. So, you know, I kind of grew up in a traditional family. You know, productivity and performance were like the way that you

got this expected, that's, that's

the way you got noticed. And so kind of started to equate that with with worth, you know, by nature, just sort of a driven and high achieving person, and then, you know, as a leader myself, I was a management consultant, and then kind of rose through the ranks of leadership and in a few companies. And what I what I learned, and what I came to truly believe, is that being professional is about being calm and cool, composed, confident at all times, you know. And I really honed that ability and gained, like, a big source of pride out of being able to, regardless of what was going on in my personal life, you know, to kind of like rise above it, like, push all those pesky emotions out of the way, and, like, get the job done, and get a gym job, like, get it done, you know, in a in a way that was sort of unruffled and cool on the surface and, and so you kind of take all of that together, right? And I think there's a lot of leaders with sort of similar backstory and similar experience and similar learning through their career journeys and but as a as an adult, I started to do really, like, more work on myself, and I came to realize how much I was missing, how much like critical information I was missing by ignoring my own emotions and the emotions in my midst and and so I really embarked on a journey of learning to sort of understand my emotions, understand the emotions of others, how to Use them to sort of like influence situations for good and and now, I mean, right, look at me. I'm sort of like this flag bearer for acknowledging and respecting and and bringing more emotions into the workplace. And so it it has. It has been a journey, and much of what I've learned along the way, both through my own work as well as a really critical element of this book, is that every tool and strategy we share is backed by science. They are proven. And, you know, all of this has come together in in this book. And you know, we share it out so that leaders can really, and I take better care of themselves in terms of leading effectively, while managing their well being and and helping those around them. Yeah,

we you. You bring up so much, and I like how you articulated that. And yet, in that cacophony of things we're talking about, because leaders today are, I think, dealt with so much more to deal with than previously, meaning the quantity of things that they've got to work with the expectations, the everything that's there. So it's a two pronged question I have for you. First, what is emotionally charged mean to you? It's kind of the critical concept. And how do you recommend people approach emotions like anger, fear, uncertainty, especially when they feel overwhelmed. And I want to say the word overwhelmed and underline it, because in today's work world, we're talking about the world of work there has been, and I don't know if you just redefined work and said, Well, we're not going to call it work anymore. I mean, there's people out there now talking about different ways to name what it is that we do today, but I think for most people, it still is work because that's where they go to hopefully fulfill their purpose. Hopefully. I think that's a that's a charged question, come away with some level of meaning in whatever it is that they're doing. So emotionally charged. What's it mean? And then what are you going to help people who go off the rails here, being overwhelmed or uncertain. Well,

we're going to help them not go off the rails. Let's start there. Okay, but so emotionally charged really has two meanings, and it's why we were so sort of excited about it for our title is, you know, the workplace of today is more emotionally charged. Emotions have always been part of the workplace, but now there, I think the volume has gone up on the emotions that are there, and for a couple different reasons, and it goes back to the way in which work has changed. So for example, we are even though, yes, JP Morgan just called everybody back to the office five days a week, and we are seeing more return to the office. There is still a lot more work that is being done remotely, and it on very distributed teams. These two things lead to more misunderstandings between people, because you do not have like the in person contact as much, which helps us read all the emotional nuance that's there. We have more diversity in the workplace, which is wonderful. But when you have people that have sort of very different like backgrounds or perspectives, there's naturally more conflict, right? We also live in a more polarized world. We have more information around these macro events that sort of differentially impact people that are bleeding into the workplace. And so all of this has really raised the temperature. Secondly, emotionally charged refers to the fact that leaders are really charged with managing emotions in the workplace. So it really has those dual meanings, sort of the nature of the workplace, as well as sort of defining an element that's so critical to leaders roles so that's emotionally changed.

And what are the tools that you give people in the book that can help them navigate this whole complex world that they're dealing with, which is not only their own emotions of fear and anger and uncertainty and I mean, look, the list goes on and on and on, but are there some very poignant things that you could point out that would be extremely valuable for a listener today. I mean, you even said yourself, and I was going to ask you, you know, you went through this kind of journey, but you also ended up being certified through the Hudson Institute. And I know the way they train coaches, it's in particularly you must have had some major insights as a result of having gone through the Hudson Institute's course. What year was that for you?

Graduated at Hudson in 2016

2016 Okay, so much has changed for you since that, I would presume, yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah, um, so, so, to kind of go back to So, to go back to that first question right around tools, I think one of the things that's really important to understand about regulating emotions, Whether it is your emotion or the emotions of others, is different tools, right? There's a lot of different tools, and our book is is chock full of them. They have different use cases, right? So in our book, we talk about, what are the strategies that are most effective for before you go into like an emotionally charged event, what do you do when you're in the event and you get triggered all of a sudden, right? Because this happens. And then also, what do you do after an event, like when you are completely drained? How do you recover effectively? And then there's a whole nother section with tools that really relate to some of those situations that leaders find themselves in frequently these days, like having to deliver bad news, like another organizational change, for a changed fatigue team, or a layoff, or supporting a team member. So anyhow there, there there are a ton of tools, but I think one of the most important things to know is, like, these different tools have different optimal times to be used. But if we were to take one example, would you would you like to do that? Sort of like, just take one use case and and break it down a bit? Or where would you like to go? Yeah.

I mean, you're as you're speaking. It's funny. I'm I did a recent interview with Dr sikumar Rao, who has the Rao Institute, and, again, huge coach, almost like a Marshall Goldsmith. And he told the story, which you probably were told, good things, bad things. Who knows? Right? And I think it comes down to particularly kind of perspective, you know, in other words, when to keep yourself out of be emotionally charged. And you can tell me if I'm wrong or right, it's the mindset that I bring to that at the time I come into that knowing who's going to be in the room, how I can manage my emotions, that kind of thing. So if you want to break it down, I would like to have that, because I think that would help the listeners, sure, sure, sure, sure.

So yeah, you have, you have hit on something that's really important and can especially be effective as you're preparing for an emotionally charged event, like, if you look at your calendar as a leader, you know you might inevitably see like some meeting you're kind of dreading later in the week, right? And so what do you do in advance of that meeting? And getting yourself in the right mindset is a piece of it, right? So oftentimes, when we're facing something that we're kind of dreading, we may distract ourselves, you know, knock off like tasks, not really spend the time thinking about it. What is the best mindset going into this meeting? The one that's going to be most effective? And what we know from from from years and years and years of research is there actually are a couple things you can do to get your sort of mindset in a way that will help you optimally in that meeting. And I very much subscribe to that philosophy that you're talking to bad news, good news. Who knows? Right? Because none of us have a crystal ball. But specifically, what? But the science is, is showing is, is visualizing success, right? Many of us go to worst case scenario, you know, we're gonna go in, the whole thing's gonna blow right, like we go to worst case scenario, that is, that's like, sort of the survival mechanism in our brain, like being like on high alert, but actually visualizing success and thinking about the potential positive outcomes is a far more effective strategy before a meeting. You know, a second thing that can be most effective again, instead of going to worst case and playing that out, you know, pondering what are potential solutions, like, what are ways I could go about this, and really trying to, like, tune into sort of creative ways of thinking about it. And then last, but not least, and it may be one that that is least natural for people as they're moving into a situation where you know, perhaps they're meeting with somebody who you know they've had conflict with, or whom they just really don't like, whatever the case may be, is thinking about gratitudes. Like, what am I grateful for? Like, what is this op? What is what's the opportunity here? Right? What's actually good about this situation or this person? Those three things can help you move into a mindset that is far more effective for handling the event that you're anticipating. And so there's a few more strategies too, that kind of that will help people before emotionally draining events. Um, but you can see how that mindset piece like that's really, really great before an event, um, during the event itself, if all of a sudden you find yourself angry or overwhelmed, different strategies are going to be most effective. And so we really break this down in the book, like, there's a whole chapter about what to do before there's a chapter of, like, what to do when you're in the midst of, like, getting triggered at you know, so, so you get, you get the drill, like, different, different things at different times. I do

believe the gratitude one is a big one. I also know that people are are big on gratitude journals, but I think, and I'm going to make a statement here, and I hope people understand you don't find gratitude. Gratitude finds you and you become gratitude. Hopefully that's not too deep, but the reality is, it's always great to do the journals and to have the gratitude, but you have to learn how to let go. And that brings me to this whole thing that we haven't discussed, which is time, the time, the issue of time. We've said time several times during this interview, but I think leaders today who get emotionally charged are frequently charged by a time constraint, some constraint that's been put on them to deadline on a project. They have to renegotiate the timeline because they can't get it done. The team isn't performing it as expected. What would you do to help people deal with this linear thing that we've created as a society, which really, I know it is really big inside of corporations, and it has to be yet. On the other hand, when you start to look at your I don't want to say it your finitude in life, where you might ultimately end up the timeline doesn't make as much importance as the experiences, what you experienced in the journey along the way, what you learned along the way. So what might you help listeners put time in perspective, or at least be able to renegotiate those timelines with upper management or people so that they're feeling more comfortable. Because if there's one thing that causes stress, that's probably it,

well, there's a lot to unpack. There time feeling as though you don't have the time, which can be a very legitimate feeling is a stressor, right? And and leaders are constantly being asked to do things more quickly, to do it more quickly with less, to do more, and it absolutely contributes to that feeling of overwhelm and stress that that people are carrying around, there was actually an article, it may have came out today, even in HBr, and it's all about being Hurry sick, right? Being that in that constantly hurried.

That's a good that's a good title. I'll have to look that one up. Yeah, yeah, because I think there is a lot of hurry sickness, not just in leaders. But the reality is, if a leader is responsible for a group of people, yeah, more, more time constraints,

yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's a few different ways I think, to approach this and in the work that I do with leaders, right, like it is all customized, because what makes one challenge, you know, difficult for one person. There may be other things, kind of like standing in the way of solving for an issue for another person, and so we would need to, like, dig under, you know, what makes it really challenging for them? Because sometimes there's, like, blocking and tackling elements that are that can be helpful, like ruthless prioritization and managing up and things where you know they're

how do you how do you help? Dina, sorry for this, but I think one of the things is the amount of tasks a leader takes on. How do you allow them to gracefully say no? Because the reality is, when the plate is already full and they're spinning all these plates to try and keep them in the air, and they drop one or two or whatever, that's not good for their emotion. On top of that, to have too many of those plates spinning at the same time is very challenging, so they have to know when to say no gracefully. What would you basically advise them on saying no? Yeah, yeah, I actually

wrote an article about just that. It's called how and when to say no to your boss. And first off, oftentimes your boss has no idea how much is on your plate. They're also not thinking about the potential trade offs, right? So you can spin all these plates and do most of them that call it like a B level, average, or you can knock it out on the park on a few more, you know, and I strongly believe, if you don't have the agency to be picking and choosing exactly what you and your team are working on, then you need to sort of develop the skills and the practice of strongly managing up and laying out for your leader, like the short term and long term consequences of that amount of of expectation right lots of times these expectations are getting cascaded down from the CEO into the C suite, down into the SVPs, and, you know, functional leaders and and down they go and, and They're not right sized. They're not they're not necessarily realistic. And when you start to kind of lay out the trade offs up, you typically can get a lot more support for either delegating to maybe another team that has additional resources, deleting certain tasks delaying not everything needs to happen right now, right or additional resources.

And it's so important what you're saying. And I think, you know, I don't want to gloss over it, but we have a lot else to cover as well. But I think as long as a leader can put time in perspective here and make the time available. I think it was at Franklin COVID. Stephen Covey used to say, put this note, these on the door. I'm thinking, right so and you can close your door. So the question is, is, how much time are people actually getting time to think, meaning strategically, a little more methodically? It's like it's they should be asking, why for many of these things, why is it that we're doing it? Because sometimes I think someone comes up with another good idea says that we're going to go charge after it. It maybe comes from top management. It sends it way through the organization, and the end, there's zero support, because they haven't really taken the time to see where it is, right? So, you know, you you mentioned these emotional triggers in the book, and we've talked about some of them, people, circumstances and events. How can listeners identify the triggers, and what steps can they take to respond rather than react? Because I think, look, that's always like, let's take a deep breath, ah, before I say anything, so I don't put my foot in my mouth. And I think that's a great one. Yet, on the other hand, I'm sure you have other ways to help deal with the triggers. Yes,

absolutely. So let's start with identifying the triggers. This should always be a work in progress. The the the the issue, I would say, in part, and one of the main drivers for this book, is that, especially here in the Western world, we really kind of over rely on our heads. And we've got three centers of intelligence, right? We have our head, which is great for thinking and logic. We have our body, which gives us so much feedback if we tune into it, and then we have our emotions, which, again, provides so much feedback and data as long as we acknowledge them.

And so I do, where do you sit? Dina on spiritual intelligence. I've actually had people written full books on the whole spiritual intelligence side of things, which it would really be more round intuition. But I'm going to just say, look, some of the greatest leaders that have been cited, from Steve Jobs to Bill Gates, have said some of the most important things that they took into meetings was truly their intuition right and strong sense and cultivate right. And to me, that's as close as I can get to bringing some level of spirituality into it as a spiritual intelligence, because they call it S, I, E, I, you know, it's got, we've got all these letters associated with it, right? Do you address that side of the emotional No,

no? And I know that. I know that's been a focus for you in your in your work, and

some Somewhat, yeah, I'm just saying I bring it up because it has been something where people actually have scores for it and tests for it, and, you know, there's, it's been, it's out in the world, and it's out there, and I know it's there. So going back to these triggers, yeah, what? What can our listeners? I'm going to just say, what can they do?

Okay, well, first, they do need to identify their triggers, right? Yeah, yeah, and we talk about that in the book, but it is about connecting sensations in their body with their emotions. So you can think about really backwards engineering, and, you know, situations where you've let's, like, lost your cool, or gotten really sad, or gotten overwhelmed or had some other intense emotion. What, what I encourage you to go back is to go back and think about, like, what was it, you know, what were the factors that contributed to that feeling, and where did I feel it in my body, right? Because over time, you will build up this incredible repository of self awareness of of the sensations in your body and how they connect to emotions. And why this is important is because your body is your first warning sign, right? And when it comes to really strong emotions, we typically want to, you know, moderate them,

your gut feeling. That's one of the big areas where people get emotionally charged. Yeah, is they have an upset stomach, or they have something going on, but it that's why they call it a gut reaction.

Yeah, yeah. Like, for example, for me, I know, you know when I feel like my core starting to tighten up and my like lungs clench like, I do know it's time for me to breathe, because no matter, like that is the best course of action for me, because I'm mad, but I'm going to say something I might regret, right? There's like, there's the potential for that, and so, because I've spent a little bit of time, doesn't take that much time to do this, to sort of just think about, like, Okay, what was that? What triggered me, and where did I feel it? I have all of this, like, I've got, like, an incredible advanced warning system now, which, which can be incredibly useful, but, but, so let's go, let's go to the second part of your question. Like, let's just say you have been triggered. Like, what do you do? Because there are events at work, no matter how much time we spend meditating or, you know, strategizing around how we're going to have a good day and make make the day great for everyone around us too. There are events right that come out of nowhere. They're unpredictable. They feel as though they endanger you in some way, and your trigger, boom, there you go, right? And like you mentioned, breathing is actually it is a great strategy, right? Because it helps you through your vagus nerve, through exhaling more, through longer exhales and deeper breaths, you down regulate your parasympathetic nervous system. So, So anyhow, it is a great one. But we have a whole acronym that we developed that is sort of a suite of things for down regulating, and it's, it's the brave framework. So B is for breathing, um, R is for recognizing, and that goes to, like, where am I feeling it in my body, right? This is a, this is a deeply grounding thing to do, right? You are turning your attention elsewhere. You might call it strategic distraction, but you are turning your attention inside, which is grounding for people who are still trying to like, get that mind body connection, even distracting yourself just rubbing your fingers together and feeling like, oh, I can feel that like this will ground you in your body, and again, reduce that emotional response. A is for acceptance. So often times when we feel something, we invalidate it, or like, go away. Like, I can't deal with you right now, as opposed to just accepting that your emotion is real and valid in the moment. And v is for verbalize, which is choosing a label for the emotion. I feel angry, and that's okay. These things really bring your prefrontal cortex more online, right? And so your brain, and it's super simplistic and but it works like a seesaw, like the more you're engaging your sort of frontal lobes, the less your emotion system has a chance to override it.

So these are four different tools. You forgot E.

Well, E is engaged. So e is engaged. So like, once you have

so to have identified it, you breathe, you identify. And they may identify out the emotion, accept it and then engage.

Yeah, and you don't need to do all four steps. All four steps is great and literally, maybe will take you 30 seconds. However, just employing like one of these strategies is better than none.

Well, that little acronym is great, and I'm glad you had an opportunity to articulate that, because I think for the listeners look, sometimes they're looking for quick fixes, little things that they could do. And if the book brings them, you know, like you said, it's filled with tools, but the reality is, it gives them an opportunity to choose what they want to do, learn what what they can from the book, take it away and apply it to their daily lives. And I think that's one of the keys to having a successful book, is if I could take and this is my question for you. So if listeners here today were to remember just one lesson from the book, what would you want that lesson to be? And can you articulate it or tell us what you'd like them to take away.

One of the reasons why I think emotions haven't gotten sort of like their respect and their due in workplaces is because there are still a lot of myths and myths misconceptions about their role and value at work. And so if I were to think of just one thing that I would want listeners to take away, it's that emotions are information. They are data and and there is unbelievable utility for both your effectiveness as a leader and a person and your well being when you tune into this information source and use it. And so our book contains all of these different ways for tuning in and then using emotions in ways that are effective and healthy. And so, you know, it's just emotions are information like and I think all good, all good leaders would not ignore data. So, you know,

well, I think, I think it's a, it's kind of a feedback loop, right? It's like, I have this data, and that's how we grow. And that brings me to, kind of my last question here. You know, you've matured and grown, you've gone through all these coaching courses. You've helped hundreds, if not 1000s, of people kind of navigate this environment, this emotionally charged environment, and looking back, what advice about emotions and growth would you give your younger self?

Yeah, gosh, you know, I wish. I wish I'd paid attention sooner rather than later? Yeah.

I mean, too, I feel the same way.

Yeah. I think I missed out on some really useful information that could have helped me both lead myself and lead others more effectively earlier on, I don't even know what that information is because I didn't pay attention to it.

Well, you weren't aware of it at the time. Now you're very much more aware of it, which makes it much more valuable. And that's what you're trying to let people know, is awareness is where it starts, and that's the first important thing, is to realize that something's charging me. I need to understand what it is, and I need to learn how to deal with it, versus brush it under the carpet, and when it comes back up again, I don't know how to deal with it again and again and again and again. So the psychology that's in your book is extremely important about how to deal with emotions, and I want to guide my listeners to you know your website now that they have a an overview of the book. It's just Dina and it's, it's Dina. Dina Smith, Dina, I'm sorry. Dina D Smith com, it's Dina D smith.com that's where you're going to find the information about the book, her executive coaching, program, team development, articles, case, libraries, the new book itself. There's a whole page dedicated to the book. And if you go there now, you can order this book on Amazon. It's going to release on February 18, and so you can go for a pre order copy. So definitely click the button to either Amazon or Oxford. I have a feeling most people will click the Amazon button, and if you want to speak or get in touch with Dina herself, because you have an engagement, or you have something you'd like to speak with her about, or services. There's a contact there. You can reach out to her and get in touch with her. Dina pleasure having you on inside personal growth to share about your new book. I'm know it's going to be a big success in all those people that read it, it will help them a lot. You've spent years working, studying and understanding what it's like to be emotionally charged. And you and your co author, it's Alicia, and pronounce her last name, I want to make sure she gets credit, grandi, that both of you guys. I wish you much success with the book and much success in your consulting practice and helping people. More importantly, yeah, thank you very much. It was great to talk to you. All right. You take care.