Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and inviting you to listen to our latest podcast episode number 931 with the author Roger Walsh about his book entitled Essential Spirituality: The Seven Central Practices to Awaken Heart in Mind. Roger also has a new podcast out and titled Deep Transformation podcast. And I encourage everybody to go there. This podcast is brought to you by Steven s. Hoffman, author of a new book entitled, The Five Forces that change everything, how technology is shaping our future. If you want to know more about Steven s Hoffman, his programs, events and new book, please visit his website, www founder space.com. That's www fo und ERSS PAC e.com. And now for our featured podcast please listen to my engaging interview with Roger Walsh about his book entitled essential spirituality the seven central practices to awaken heart and mind. And also don't forget to take a listen to his new podcast entitled deep transformation podcast. Happy listening. Welcome back inside personal growth, this is Greg Voisen and host of inside personal growth. And joining me from Mill Valley is Roger Walsh. And Roger is a returning guest. He was on the show I say many moons ago. And the reason I say that is he was speaking about his book on the Course in Miracles that he had authored. Roger, Good day to you how you doing,

Roger Walsh
Greg? Hello, thank you so much for the chance to dialogue with you again, what a delight.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's always a pleasure speaking with you because it centers me and I hope it centers all the rest of my audience as well. Today we're going to be talking about two things. The first one I want to mention and then we'll put a link into our blog for that is a new podcast that Roger does called deep transformation podcast and that's deep tranformation dot com. And there you will learn more about Roger. And his partner John to pray is to pray, deplete, deplete nice Frenchmen. We have an Aussie and a Frenchman. So they are doing a podcast together now. And I do want to encourage my listeners to go to that deep transformation tagline, self society's spirit. Roger, let me tell my guests who are listening a little bit about you. And this you will find up at the deep transformation website. Rogers day jobs include being a University of California professor, and that's at UC Irvine in psychiatry, philosophy, anthropology and religious studies as well as the writer and researchers who work his work has been received over 20 national and international awards. He is also a meditation student, teacher and researcher, a Tibetan Buddhist Lama, and was formerly a circus acrobat. I didn't know that. And a world record high diver and spectacularly unsuccessful standup comedian. Well, you've had a lot of different things that you've done in your career.

Roger Walsh
Roger, a lot of incarnations in this lifetime.

Greg Voisen
So it but it's a pleasure having you back on again to be with myself and the guests. We really did enjoy that last podcast and it's been way too long ago. But we're going to be speaking not about just the podcast show that he does. But a book that he wrote quite some time ago. We're actually saying this book was in 1999. But as I say here, the spirituality and the wisdom that comes from that it's timeless. So there is no you know, you don't have to worry about these books what year they were done, you can pick them up almost any year anytime and read them so we're gonna put a link to this book to Rogers book on Amazon because I've formulated my questions for Roger as that and the dialogue for this. You know, Roger, even though it is 1999 Long time ago that He wrote that. And I said, the good news for listeners is that the book is about ageless wisdom. And it never dates itself. None of the spiritual material usually does. Why did you choose to write the book? And what do you hope the reader is going to gain insight into a result of reading? And I think more importantly, practicing what you speak about to awaken the heart. There is so much I mean, it's very rich, the whole book.

Roger Walsh
Well, thank you very much, Greg. And there are two questions. Now why did I write up what am I hoping for, for readers, and the Caber write it out of my own direct spiritual quest I was, I was a hardcore materialist. I was a scientist and an MD, PhD, etc. I worship at the altar of science. And it when it came to California, it was a great shock, to gradually be exposed to alternative ways of thinking, to contemplative traditions to psychological growth work. And I dove very deeply into those and tried to make sense of them and found them very rich and very valuable. But then I became then I started to look at well, here are all these contemplative traditions, meditation, yoga, Mantra, recitation, etc. I'm doing um, they seem to be working, but how could they possibly be if they're relics of primitive thinking, as I assumed. And there was literally one moment as I was walking across the living room for when I realized that behind the conventional religious institutions with their myths, and their dogmas and their rituals, were much less well known esoteric, contemplative disciplines for training the heart and mind to cultivate the same qualities and virtues that the founders and saints and sages of each tradition have realized. And I realized there was a, we could almost call it a contemplative technology, they all became really fascinated, well, we are living in this extraordinary time, it's very, it's very easy for us to infer in the United States, and particularly for those of us in California to forget what a rare time this is, when we can, we have access for the first time in human history, to all the world's religions and spiritual traditions and philosophies. And to forget that for most of human history, if you studied another religion, or another meditative meditation practice, you could end up in a funeral pyre a crucifix. So, I became intrigued. Well, what do these have in common? And I kept asking myself, well, okay, what are the greatest minds in human history said, other qualities of heart and mind that we need to develop in order to live as fully unwell and beneficially as possible? And what do they say about how to do it. And over time, I've gradually began to see that see the different commonalities across cultures and traditions and wisdom traditions. And the first clue was given to me by Rand us, the great former Harvard professor who became rom Das, and was a pioneer for many of us in spirituality. And he said, well, all these traditions have in common, they have an ethical training, and they cultivate wisdom, and, and service. And it's no wisdom, wisdom, wisdom, ethics. Anyway, three things. And that kind of resonated for me. And then gradually over the years, I began to realize, well, actually there are more. For example, every contemplative tradition emphasizes the importance of emotional transformation. We have to relinquish anger, jealousy, fear, to make room for love and compassion and joy. And the power that he is attentional training the capacity to develop a stable, calm, clear mind. You need that in order to be able to do these practices. They emphasize perceptual clarity, seeing things as they really are disentangling ourselves from our delusions and illusions so we can really see clearly and they and they emphasize, emphasize the color, shifting our motivation, from more egocentric to world centric from being compelled and then controlled by our cravings and fears, to being free to move towards self actualization towards self transcendence, and finally towards selfless service. So great. Fell together. So that's the end of my

Greg Voisen
Wow, that is that is the essence of the book for certain. And you know, today as I was out, it's a we're we're taping this show on Good Friday. And I was asking my wife for About Good Friday, and we were talking about Jesus Christ. And then we were talking about the resurrection. And it was really about removing fear, because there wasn't, there is no death. And, you know, the message is really about that, you know, and I found it fascinating that you and I reconnect on a day where many Christians are thinking about the resurrection, the ability to become new again. And at that time, reincarnation, well talked about wasn't only you know, the state of the day, right. But yet all these other religions did have that. And you speak about two crucial terms. And we talked about this when we did the pre interview. I said, I'm not super religious, I'm spiritual. What, in your estimation, is the difference between spirituality and religion?

Roger Walsh
Okay, well, those are two, two of the most widely used terms in our worlds. And of course, different people have their own spin. But the way I think of it is that spirituality is concerned with direct experience and the practices which cultivate it. Religion is the term is more often associated with the organization's and beliefs, and general practices that flow out of an individual or groups experience and become crystallized into its institutional forms, and discipline. So that's the way I differentiate them.

Greg Voisen
And that's good, because, you know, some people, you hear them say, I'm religious, you'll hear other people say, I'm spiritual. And I think, you know, your definition helps to see the outward expression, versus when I think of religion. I've said this many times, I think it was Ken Wilber that was on the show. And he wrote a book about religion, that kind of the fall of religion. And this has been a while ago. But the statement I've made many times, is religions have done more to divide society and individuals than they have to unite. This is a great voice and comment. But spirituality has done more to bring people together, in, in my humble opinion, because there's been so much strife and so much fighting from a religious standpoint. And I think that's a challenge. You want to comment on that? Because to me, I know it's not one of our questions, and it doesn't have to be but the reality is, is that fundamentally, to me, it just seems so challenging. That you're, you're, whether it's Judaism, or Mormonism, or Catholicism, or whatever ism it is, it has been a challenge to control people to almost control them and to control their minds. And I don't mean that negatively. I think there's a lot that comes out of that. But I'd love to get your take on it. Because look, you're somebody who has been studying this most of your life.

Roger Walsh
Well as a few. All right, I'll take I'll take a stab. Well, I think you're pointing towards something very important, tragically important break. And if we go back to the distinction between spirituality and religion is spirituality, emphasizing direct experience, religion, emphasizing interpretation and dogma, institutionalization. And particularly belief, then I think what you're saying becomes understandable. People don't, don't fight so much over their direct experience. It's always the interpretations that become the source of source of, of argumentation. And with religions, we have very set beliefs, and not just any beliefs, they are the big picture beliefs, our understanding of the cosmos and God and our human nature and how we relate to the universe and God etc. So these are what are called our worldviews our biggest encompassing understanding of ourselves in the universe and, and everything that is, and when, when you when, so our very identity is grounded in and in some ways determined by that kind of will our worldviews and when you are in that belief system, and the thing that's really important to know is When you don't share someone's belief system, you tend to weaken it. And since everyone identifies with their belief system that's literally experienced as a death threat. And so people have go to war, and more people have perhaps, killed and died over, for example, the phrase, no one comes to the Father, but by Me, then no state will in human history, right. And yet here was a man clearly devoted to love and compassion.

Greg Voisen
Totally. And I think that's a good summation of that. And it is, as they asked somebody a Ukrainian the other day, on a talk show, forget him. But they were asking, they were talking to some Ukrainians. And the man said, He's the antichrist that Putin is the Antichrist. You know, Hitler was the Antichrist. When you look at love and compassion, you're just wondering where it is, and it doesn't exist. And that is just my commentary as well again, but I would I would agree with the comments made. You know, you mentioned that the book, essential spirituality is a result of 23 years of research in the practice of the world spiritual disciplines. But before then, you, Roger Walsh, were agnostic, you had no belief, and in the value or validation of religion of any kind, what are the seven perennial practices that you really speak about? And want people to understand as a result of reading this book? Because they think they're, they're like the foundation? They're there fundamental?

Roger Walsh
Yeah. Greg, and, and as you asked in the previous question, as I pointed towards this, these were the practices that I found that the great sages across cultures, and, and traditions and centuries AD emphasized as the as the most important practices we can do. And so again, a foundational is a foundation in ethics, that, that we cannot settle our minds and develop love and compassion and clarity and wisdom. If our minds are filled with hatred and jealousy, and we're lying and stealing from people. So ethical living is foundational. Then there's a shift in motivation, really releasing egocentric motivation and growing in motivation, which is more generous, which is more self actualizing, self transcending, less compulsively driven, and there's emotional transformation, reducing anger, fear, jealousy, cultivating love, compassion, joy, etc. And then there's perceptual clarification, really kind of looking, developing a sensitivity of perception, such as advanced meditators have been found to do with research, seeing very sensitive, increasingly sensitively and clearly. Then there's the cultivation of wisdom, seeing deeply into life, and seeing how best to respond to life. And finally, there's the there's the practice of selfless service, the recognition that we practice, not for ourselves alone, but in order to become more effective instruments of service services, both a means to awakening and an expression.

Greg Voisen
Well, you rattle those off pretty quick. And I think my listeners will get it. But the most important thing is, is that we'll put a link for the book, because he does have a list of them in the book. And then he goes through and articulates them further. And I think that that's that these are, where, where you were coming from with each one of those and how you, boom, boom, boom, boom, went right down the list. It's really important, because those are, those are practices. In other words, it's a way that we can enrich and enrich our lives, become more loving, become more compassionate, become more understanding. Now, you talked about motivation. You also talked about cravings in the book. And somebody texted me and this is an off the wall, a very interesting article this morning. And it's a gal that's been on my show, April rent rhynie, who lost both of her parents in a car accident at the age of 20. And she wrote a really interesting book called Flux, the eight superpowers to thrive in constant change. And the article, Roger was about running from one self that end today. Is world we have this sense that we're, we're running we're always on now and that kind of contemplative practices, Buddhist practices, Eastern philosophy, it's about slowing down and, and meditating and being more intentional and being more mindful. If you were to comment about the current state of our world as you see it, Roger Walsh sees it from your perspective, what advice might you give people who find themselves running from themselves?

Roger Walsh
Yeah, gosh, there's so much in what you said Greg and, and the running both from ourselves and woods, the toys and trinkets that the world offers Correct? Materialism. Yeah. So there's both running from and are running towards and both of them are crucially important and have a can easily have a compulsive quality. So we run from that which were unwilling to look at. Yet it's true, it's critically important to know to finally important things about the way the mind works. One is, whatever you're unwilling to experience in yourself, whatever you're unwilling to experience in the mind, sticks around until you are willing to experience it. First Principle. Second one, whatever you're unwilling to experience runs your life. Now, those are two very, very powerful things. So if we running, running and keeping very busy and tranquilizing ourselves with trivia, in order to avoid facing our inner experience, we are we are going to be fleeing that indefinitely, because it will stay there until we look at it. But the good news is that when we start to start to open to our experience, and that within us which we have feared, we find that awareness in and of itself is curative. But when our emotional difficulties, our traumas, our intense emotions, the things we're fearful and shameful about when they're brought into the healing light of awareness, T release and unravel. And their energy becomes freely available to us. So they offer us gifts, even as after we've been willing to look at. So that's one thing I would say about

Greg Voisen
one of those is, you know, when you talk about cravings, and you spoke with me in the pre interview, that some research you were doing that it again, in the eastern philosophy, it's the attachment to the attachment to something we all know, I mean, logically, we're not taking any of our possessions with us. You know, I mean, a lot of people probably want to be buried with their Tesla.

But it didn't get to happen. So speak with, speak with us, if

Greg Voisen
You would, about the non attachment and how that can help people overcome this challenge.

Roger Walsh
Yeah, and, of course, you mentioned Eastern philosophies and this idea of the importance of attachment or craving as most succinctly articulated in Buddhism, Buddhism, where it's the second of the four noble truths, the first noble truth being the, you know, in an Anon, like any unenlightened life, there is necessarily suffering. And the second noble truth gives a diagnosis, the cause of that suffering is craving. And the third noble truth gives the treat it gives the treatment or antidote, it's like the way out of suffering to relief. So relief suffering is to release craving. And the fourth Noble Truth is a recipe for how to do that eight ways of doing that. And so, the, the idea is that craving is, and its mirror image, which is aversion or fear or anger, craving tries to grasp something, it says, I must have this in order to be happy. It's mirror image Version says, I must not have that in order to be happy. And of course, there can be no peace and equanimity as long as we're slave to those tweets, those tweeting drives. So, the, the idea behind many traditions, understanding of craving is that this is a very powerful, dynamic, built into our human nature. And yet it is possible to release and grow beyond it and come to a life of, of equity, more group far greater peace and equanimity. Ready, bye gradually unraveling this and the unraveling exercises can be, for example craving, simply to be aware of it to notice how we feel. And we notice we actually don't feel so good when we're craving. So just that recognition are willing to actually experience it. This gets back to your previous point, Craig, about fleeing from ourselves, one of the things we flee from is directly experiencing what it's like to crave. As long as we don't directly experience it, we don't realize how destructive it isn't gonna keep feeding it. So that's just one, beginning weigh in.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, I told you that I had read the introduction to a book, on psychedelics that you had written. And you’ve obviously done a lot of research. And, you know, one of the things I look at is the subconscious mind and the conscious mind. And this is an open ended question for you. I currently see a gentleman by the name of Dr. Steve Berman, be er, ma n. And Steve was an emergency room doctor for 20 years, but uses hypnosis to help his patients overcome the challenges that they're dealing with in the emergency room, and if they're going under surgery. So I've been hypnotized many times by Steve, and to actually realize how strong the subconscious mind is. Now, there's many ways to get at this but because this mammalian brain of ours always wants to default back to certain ways in which we do it. I'm, I'm asking you this question and I know this roundabout, but between all these practices meditation and yoga, and I T P, which George Leonard used and psychedelics, and all of this with the intent being of everything we talk at, to slow down, observe and release something that we constantly keep defaulting back to a craving, okay, whatever that might be. Whether we have a sexual Craver, gambling addiction or a spending addiction, whatever it might be, what would you say? And what have you found in all the research you've done? That seems to have or could have a sustainable effect on enhancing unhinging that what seems to be just such a strong, powerful kind of way in which we work?

Roger Walsh
Yeah, well, yes, let's acknowledge first off that the craving is incredibly powerful, and it's part of our survival. Machinery, and it's possible to attenuate it and even for advanced people to release it. You know, you're pointing to let me generalize the question, Greg, because you pointed out something very important, what are what are the kind of most strategic practices we can do for working with a variety of issues, and in others, I spent a lot of years studying and reflecting and researching and before I wrote that book, essential spirituality, the seven central practices. And as I looked across the world's contemplative traditions, and what the world's wisest people have said, about how to come to the fullness of our potential as human beings. The thing that surprised me most was that every single tradition said that for every single one of these seven qualities and virtues of heart and mind, they all said, if you want to develop these qualities, hang out with people who have every one of them agreed that the power of relationship and community was so powerful, that if we hung out with people who have these virtues with people who are loving, who are generous, or ethical, who are not driven by craving, we pick these up by osmosis because and we know this now from contemporary neuroscience, says there's a whole field of so called social neuroscience. We are built neurologically like tuning forks, we resonate with one another. And not only not only ways of being and habits, but also states of mind states of consciousness are transmitted. And wisdom traditions have known this for millennia. They talk about the power of transmission from a teacher. It's not just teachers, it's a friend, it's our relatives, it's the people we hang out with. There's a saying, now in the contemporary research community, watch out who you hang out with, because you become like them and look like them. We even look begin to look like the people we hang out with. Because if our friends cousin day, in some ways, we probably will. And if we hang out with people who are happy, our faces, muscles will grow. So as we tend to smile more, I mean, the power of community and relationship is extraordinarily powerful in these contemplative traditions, and the sages recognized the hundreds and 1000s of years ago, and so forth.

Greg Voisen
They're going to interrupt but you just came back from a month long meditation retreat in community. And, you know, COVID, has done much to disrupt the ability to have us do these things. But I remember when I was with Joel and Michelle Levy on the orcas islands, meditating that the community that was formed was so strong, and the elixir that gets created as a result of the practices. Is, is a I mean, if you want to talk about a craving, it's a it's a huge craving, but a craving for peace, love, tranquility, and so on. And it is it because once you get there, it's like, you can't have enough. And then when you come back, in my case to the mainland on the boat, and you see what's happening, you go, oh, my God, I live in this. You know, you're saying, well, which is the real world, right? It's kind of like, people say, well, you're back in the real world. And they go, well, no, maybe the orcas islands in the meditation retreat was the real world. But if you talk to anybody that goes on a meditation retreat, afterwards, the kind of the shock of just coming back out of it, again, is interesting. Any comment on that? Because I've talked to so many people that have had the same experience, they say, oh, my gosh, that was wonderful for a week or two weeks, or a month or whatever. And then I'm back here again. And I see the rat and the hamster wheel.

Roger Walsh
Well, I think you said it beautifully. Greg, we become immersed in our law in our lives. We've become hypnotized, by the by the conventional world. And it's understanding we become hit by everything from advertising to the news. And we become habituated, we just assume this is the way it is. We go into a retreat. We detox effectively, psychological spiritual detox, we come back we realize, Oh, my goodness, this is what I and we have been lost into. And so we are able to see it with fresh, more perceptive, clearer, quieter, calmer eyes.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. Well, your perception certainly changes. And at one point in the book, you said, that's the best thing that could happen is your awareness and perception about it changes. And you said, you state that to know happiness and bliss, and we need to change our motivations. And always question for you about the word motivation, versus inspiration. You know, I've had many debates with people about that extrinsic intrinsic, will, maybe we can talk about that here. This means reducing cravings for those things that we do not bring true, or do not bring true happiness, and redirecting desires. To those that do. That's really key if I was going to underline anything, redirecting to those that do. That's easier said than done. What practices can help us change those motives in your estimation, because this is a habitual habit. We've got to change a habit, we've got to change, almost like a reflex. And reflex is just like, boop. But you know, it's like Pavlov's dog ring the bell thing. Here we go.

Roger Walsh
Yeah, I'm so glad you've emphasized several times, Greg, that these are all practices. They're not something for the most part, we just make a decision about although making decision can be very important and foundational for further change. But yes, these are practices. So for redirecting motivation. There's a series and first, the first thing comes with, with exposure to different ideas about what really matters in life, because we aren't drawn to what really matters. And so the first step is just knowing there are paths, other possibilities to see people dedicating their lives to, for example, learning and growth and becoming clear and waking up and serving. So first off being exposed to different ideas. Second, coming back to that theme again, hanging out with people who have those have those different motives? Third, exactly what you mentioned, beginning to turn attention in and look for our own inspiration, not what other people tell us, not what the advertisers tell us, we should design. But what really calls us what inspires us what energizes, empowers, and directs us. So we come then to respond to our own calling. And that's a very, very crucial shift.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, that is a crucial shift. And we you have a part in the book that you speak about, you know, when you're not following that, you can have a lot of anxiety and you can have a lot of anger. And you can have a lot of frustration. And in your chapter on the gift of love, you speak that emotions rule our lives that the feelings we repeatedly invite into our minds eventually seduce and dominate our minds. You didn't state that one emotion has long been praised as supreme, by the great religions. And that is love. What do you recommend to access love in our lives? And does this start with a big dose of self love?

Roger Walsh
Yeah, two important questions, then how to cultivate love, and sec. Second is start with self love and, and let's just step back for a moment to talk about the very nature of love because our culture's understanding of love is very constricted and limited. And it really helps. The first step is to have a larger vision of possibility of what life can be, for the most part of culture is promulgated the Hollywood myth that love can happen if you with the right person and looks the right way or says the right things, then you can feel love. So it kind of holds our culture holds our viewers love that kind of, you can have under the right circumstances with the right person, and it kind of sends on you're kind of like an attack of IP. And you controlled by it, and you can't stop thinking about the person who breakout and sweats you can't sleep. That's not that's a description of heroin withdrawal. This is a description of addiction, not a pure, of, of have, what the Christians would call a god pay the overflowing love for all creation, all people. So first off, we need to recognize there are different kinds of love. There's a love which is based in craving, which is what our culture assumes a little love can be, there's love, which can be is the love we see between, for example, relatives or parents, for children. That's a very generous giving love. There's a love between romantic partners, which at its best can be the flowing of Eros, not grasping after, and possessing, but rather overflowing Eros, that is not just not only sexual, certainly sexual, but more than that, inspiring, invigorating for life. And finally, there's what the Christians called a god pay or unconditional love, which is a love that knows no boundaries or limitations encompasses all people and even all life. So having that vision is a first step. And then there are individual practices we can work with which we could go into if you'd like.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think that you know, what's important here for I would think for my listeners, I feel like I know him a little better. The opposite of love is fear. And much has been written about fear and anger and the long term effects to our emotions and our physical health. You’ve outlined 11 exercises in chapter 12 to reduce fear and anger, what are some of those exercises, not all of them because we don't have time, and that can help our listeners find themselves and being less fearful and less angry. You know, because I my sense is, you know, all you got to do is drive down the road anymore and get cut off one more time. And you can see that, you know, there's a lot of frustration and anger or someone that can't wait in line for you know, the next checkout person. I There are times I sense myself that way and I'm like, why can't I stay in this peaceful state and just wait you know, I get it because we are enticed about what's the next thing that we have to do? And so when to do is gets big. It starts to possess us and it's really not about

Roger Walsh
Yeah, exactly. And, again, we could go down many roads here, Greg, you touched on luck. But if we think of, for example, fear. Fear is, you know, it's an emotion which runs our lives. To varying extents, it's one of the things that feelings are most uncomfortable, we tend to avoid. And yet, one of the things that, again, is important to know is when we avoid being or when we avoid directly experiencing our fear, it remains there and it tends to grow and attends to run our lives. So one of the things that really valuable know about fear is if we turn attention to it actually explored, what does this actually feel like? We find that as we explored it, but through the healing power of awareness, it begins to diminish and release. And in fact, one of the standard psychotherapeutic treatments for fear is simply to have people remain in a situation that's fearful for them for a period of several minutes, because that's usually what happens. As soon as we possibly experience fear, we try to get out of that situation. But if we stay there, if we end if we just experience the fear, that only takes literally a couple of minutes for us to realize, oh, it's beginning to decrease, if we don't run from it, if we run from it, we exacerbate it. If we stay with a bit diminishes, that's a crucial life lesson.

Greg Voisen
That is, that is really great wisdom. You know, I know, one of the practices is like a tonglen meditation where you're doing healing work for the rest of the world. And you know, when I've done that, I can really feel it in your body feels it. And then to breathe it back out again. I think that that's, I think I'm kind of wrapping this up, Roger, what I'd like you to do, because there's the book, which we're going to put a link to. And there's a podcast, which Roger has deep transformation, which we're going to put a link to. But I'd like to wrap this up with, you know, your essentials of spirituality will certainly awaken the heart of all readers that commit to your practices. And I'm going to underscore, commit to the practices. This isn't a book you just read. This is a book you contemplate this is a book that you practice you work on, there's work you have to do, if you were to leave the listeners with three takeaways, that they could really make an impact. Now, you know, as rom das says, I have this. Here, I'll show you, I also have a clock. And I have a now clock, which has no hands on it. It's just on the wall and it has a an ohm signal that goes back and forth. What would they be? And why do you believe they're so important to changing their lives, just three really great takeaways that they can apply?

Roger Walsh
Okay, well, I would again, go back to something we talked about before, because it's so important, so many sages agreed with this. Be careful who you who you choose to hang out with. Choose your friends and companions wisely, and make and ideally, see if they embody the qualities you would like to have and strengthen yourself. That's number one, an analogy of that, be very careful about what you put into your mind, for example, with television, because what we put into our minds is even more important than what we put into our bodies. Second principle, and there are going to be two related principle here ethics. Ethics is crucial, the psychological and spiritual well being and growth. And in our culture, we tend to tend to think of ethics as kind of a sacrifice or Okay, I'll do what I should do. What we don't appreciate, is an ethics is living ethically, is a way of enhancing our well being and the well being of everyone we interact with. And the third is generosity and service. Our culture tends to think of generosity and service as self sacrifice. It's not its enlightened self interest, when we really begin to experience what it's like to give. We realize that we when we give to others, we cultivate feelings such as generosity and joy and love, and they grow in us. And so generosity is not self sacrifice. It's enlightened self interest. Well,

Greg Voisen
Thank you for giving me and our listeners, a wonderful 4550 minute talk and in an opportunity to glean some of your practices out of essential spirituality, again, we've been on with Roger Walsh from Mill Valley, California. And you're going to want to go to his podcast show. And we will put a link to that podcast show, but it's called deep transformation podcasts. Roger, Namaste to you. Thank you for being on. Thank you for spending some time with me.

Roger Walsh
Greg, thank you very much for this opportunity. And thank you for all you do for all of us.