[00:00.1]
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voice and the host of the Inside Personal Growth. And we have a returning author guest from Berkeley, California. And you can see by it says man in the world, Char Charles Vogel.

[00:19.3]
There he is. And you want to hold up your new book, the Art of Community, second edition. There we go. Seven Principles for Belonging. We're going to get into that today. Charles, good day to you. How are you doing? It's exciting to be back and I'm delighted that you think there's something that, that your listeners want to hear more of.

[00:39.7]
Well, they always want to hear because they're on the learning line, you know, so they're all learning, they're all seeking, they want to understand more. And many of them are finding. So maybe this is the point where they find something that the action can apply. And that's the reason I wanted to do this podcast again, because I think this is something where they don't have to seek anymore.

[01:01.9]
Charles is going to give you something, you're going to find it. So let me tell you a little bit about him. Charles Vogel is the executive advisor, community building expert and award winning author, who was on the show before actually, and we'll put a link to that podcast as well.

[01:19.8]
He's an award winning authors whose works has transformed how organizations around the world build underline meaningful connections. And I think that's really what most people are seeking today, which is what I wanted to have you back on the show to talk about because if I was going to highlight anything, it would be meaningful connections.

[01:41.3]
Charles is the author of this book, the Art of Community, second edition. You don't have a co author on this one or did you not on this book. Not only. This is, this is just me. Okay. Which is, is expanded, is international bestseller and 25 new content, he says, including guidance for building virtual communities in our increasing digital world.

[02:08.7]
Boy, is that the case. Based on 3, 000 years of spiritual traditions and his personal experiences, charge Charles is distilled seven timeless principles that help leaders create cultures of genuine belonging.

[02:25.4]
And in today's world it's harder and harder to find that. So his expertise has made him a sought after consultant for organizations like Google, Airbnb, Amazon and a U.S. army. And it goes on and on and on. Besides that, he holds a Master's of divinity from Yale where he studied with Jesse Ball Dupont Foundation.

[02:49.8]
Scholar exploring the intersection of religion, ethics and business. Charles lives in Oakland. As I said and it's interesting. I didn't know this about you. And he'd survived experiences raining from a plane crash to spitting cobra attack all in the same year.

[03:05.0]
Is that true? That's true. Okay. And we'll. Sure. Maybe we'll hear more about that. Believe it or not, from Your community this afternoon, I have another author on which I'm sure you know, Matthew Fox and.

[03:22.2]
Oh, yes. Yeah. And he has written many books. Many, many. Yeah. And I love him, even though, you know, his wisdom is just so, so special. So, you know, in your book, you discuss how our culture is experiencing what the Surgeon General calls this epidemic of loneliness.

[03:43.9]
I actually saw a video of loneliness amongst teenagers. Is, like, crazy right now. Even though they're socially connected on the Internet, there isn't much community happening with many of these young kids. How has this crisis of.

[04:00.9]
I mean, now I'm, getting in a different topic, but the reality is, if it starts there, does it perpetuate all the way up to when these people go to work, working in these companies? And it just seems so. The loneliness crisis at the younger ages is crazy.

[04:18.3]
So how has this crisis evolved since you first published and then the Art of Community? And what are the new insights that you've gained, from your research? Oh, my goodness, you've really thrown a lot at me there. How has it changed? Well, the first.

[04:34.0]
The first edition of this book came out in 2016, and it's hard to remember now for those of us who track, you know, business, organization, that kind of thing. When I released a book called the Art of Community, it really was a Hail Mary by my publisher, by an unknown author, me, who had a formal degree in religion, who was writing about this thing called Community.

[04:55.2]
And it was such an unusual topic at the time that I noticed when I said that's what I was writing about, there was this assumption, I was writing about people on a beach singing Kumbaya. And what we didn't know when that came out in 2016 would be that the trend of isolation disconnection would become so great.

[05:13.5]
Not only would the New York Times write about it broadly and how it affects industry and, specifically the tech sector. And not only would, Vivek Murthy, the Surgeon General, write a front page article for Harvard Business Review about the crisis, loneliness for organizations.

[05:31.8]
Of course, we then had the Surgeon General declaring a loneliness epidemic. And that was all before Greg the Pandemic, which of course, isolated us in ways that were unprecedented in more than a generation so it just seemed crazy in the rearview mirror that we released this book just before there was this seemingly desperate hunger to remember.

[05:56.6]
How do we create those connections amongst people we care about that support us through very, very challenging times? So what do you think's happened? I mean, look, you have a degree in divinity, and you've studied all the ancient traditions as well as I have a degree in spiritual psychology.

[06:14.9]
And I look at some of the things through the course of my 70 years of being on this planet. And one of the things that I find is that if you ask most people, how many friends do you really have?

[06:30.9]
And they can usually hold up their hand and say, I got like five friends. What do you think's evolved in society besides that technology has just distracted people so much and made them run into, you know, telephone poles while they're walking down the street and texting somebody.

[06:52.0]
In your humble opinion, as not only an author, but somebody who studies what's going on, what's occurred between, let's say, 1950 and 2025, which is seven years.

[07:09.3]
Yeah. The world is radically different. And, you know, I have my own experiences, but I want to reference, or refer to the. The understanding I've gained from the research I've done to write all the books I've written so far. So in addition to the technology piece, which we do need to talk about, there's, at least three, big moves that I think are worth talking about here.

[07:30.5]
The first one is Americans are moving, physically moving where they live more often than before. I don't have the exact number on my head. And of course, averages don't mean very much. Right. Because there's a distribution there. But we're moving more than ever before. And every time we move, we're physically leaving the group of people that we formed relationships with that support us, that we have relationships of what I call mutual concern and starting over again.

[07:54.2]
And you do that several more times in your life, and guess what? You're not You're going back to maybe close to zero more often. The second one is Americans are largely leaving their home faith traditions. So, back in the 1970s, which is in 1950, but the research shows 1970s, the vast majority of Americans went to church.

[08:15.0]
I don't just mean a spiritual organization. I mean church. And whatever else was true is they were going to a place regularly where they were standing and sitting and participating with people who share some set of values and purpose and building those relationships. And Americans are largely leaving their home faith traditions.

[08:32.5]
What's interesting is the research doesn't show that Americans are changing their belief in or interest in God. Or we could call it spirituality. But, largely legacy religious institutions are failing to serve Americans and what they need. So we're missing that convening. And then the third one I'll mention here is income, is very, very different.

[08:53.7]
You know, I have a friend who writes for the Simpsons, and I know that when the Simpsons debuted in the 1990s, it was on purpose that the Simpson family represented the middle of the income lifestyle distribution of America. We had a single earner who was, not college educated, who worked in a factory, had three kids, owned two cars, owned a home and went on vacation.

[09:17.3]
I don't know anybody raising kids right now who thinks they can, you know, tell their kids a, plan to have two cars, own your own home, three kids, go on vacation, don't get a college degree and work at a factory. You know, I don't know that family. So we're busy working to try to keep up a lifestyle.

[09:36.6]
The 1990s was achievable with a holy different investment. And people are tired and they're distracted. And then we do need to talk about digital, devices. You know, the research is really clear. Having many, many more. I'm putting air quotes here. Friends on social media does not meaningfully increase your life.

[09:56.2]
In fact, it's approximately zero. We do know that in creating a single digit number of friends in the physical world dramatically changes your life. And when we look at how we're spending our time in digitally mediated relationships, we can't be surprised that then we're unsatisfied with the relationships we formed with that investment.

[10:17.0]
And part of that is reps. You know, Greg, when you and I were in middle school and high school and we went to an event, we just had to talk to people there because either we hid in a corner or we had to talk. And now I can't tell you how many rooms I go into where literally everybody in the room is looking at a screen and they have to talk to nobody.

[10:34.9]
Well, if you extract 15 years of reps of creating conversations that create friendships out of your life, then you can't be surprised how you wake up in your mid-30s and you don't have those skills to form those relationships when you need them. Very well put.

[10:49.9]
And I think it's, it's so important for people to understand the factors. I always wonder, you know, we're seeing the death of a pope and a new pope And a big religion and society which is making some changes. Maybe we'll see white smoke in the next few days and another new pope.

[11:07.3]
And from a religious standpoint versus a spiritual standpoint, obviously, see somewhere along the lines, it doesn't matter if it's which religion it is, but the ones that were so dogmatic seem to have lost a lot of the following.

[11:25.1]
Now, I don't know if it's lost, but it's changed. My question is if that was the community that people were getting involved in, to actually build more friends, to kind of pull people out of this lonely epidemic. I think what happened is people just didn't trust it anymore.

[11:44.1]
I think you're seeing a shift more toward. I know in Judaism, I'm Jewish, my background is Jewish. I see more Jewish people going to Buddhism. Okay. Because it seems to be a natural for them. Now, I'm saying, again, minor statistics and studied like yours, but what do you think has made that whole huge structure that's been around for 2,000 years plus kind of fall apart?

[12:11.5]
To lose people's interests, to actually want to actually believe in it anymore and to build it, use it as community? All right, so there's several layers there that we need to address with integrity. The first one is, when you say it's falling apart, we need to recognize that trends that are happening in the United States are not necessarily happening everywhere in the world.

[12:34.3]
Okay, so, for example. Good point. So if we, for example, look at Protestant, Christian traditions, they're exploding in parts of Africa while they are struggling in many parts of the United States. And much of that struggle in the United States is often, financial. We have institutions that are very expensive to keep running with.

[12:52.2]
The overhead of people and the physical buildings. Right. A lot of small churches in America are largely funding old buildings that are too big for them. And that doesn't necessarily mean that there's a struggle in the greater tradition. And then when you say the dogmatic traditions are failing, if we're going to go down that road, you're going to have to explain to me what you mean by dogmatic.

[13:15.0]
Because as my understanding, when we look at spiritual traditions, every tradition that has an agreed cosmology has dogma. What. What most people don't like when they say they don't like dogma is they don't like other people's dogma.

[13:31.7]
And they, of course, like their own dogma. And, that's where the problem comes up. So when you say dogmatic, well. Well, whose dogma are we Talking about. Yeah, yeah. Well, you bring up some really important points. Mine is from observation, not from study.

[13:49.0]
I, I say, you know, my sense is, because I do a show that covers spirituality, business, personal growth, wellness, I get all kinds of authors on here who've written about all kinds of things. And I'm basing it on my experience from.

[14:05.6]
Okay. Many of the books that have come across the, the Transit here. Right. Which there's been a lot. There's been over 1200 of them. But, but the reason I love having you on is because you have such a solid understanding of this, both from your studies, but also from your research in all of this as well.

[14:27.8]
And I don't disagree with you at all. I would say what you just said is right on. Yet there's a feeling inside of me, an innate intuitive sense that this migration is occurring. Because that's what I feel.

[14:43.5]
That doesn't mean that it's founded in fact. Right. Okay. Now one of the thing you have is Three Promises framework that you present. It suggests that successful community experiences must deliver freedom, connection and growth.

[14:59.8]
So okay, we just talked about it being online. I have an online podcast that hopefully helps people grow. Right? They listen to a podcast, they get an idea, they go buy a book, and they change something in their life. Which of these tends to be the most overlooked and why, in your estimation or in your studies?

[15:22.3]
So as we, as you made my, as you made clear my introduction, Greg, you know, my work is on building up leaders to be better at creating community. And so we need to be clear that when I talk about community, we're talking about a group of people who share mutual concern for one another.

[15:39.1]
Which is not an audience or a customer list or an email list. And an email list, a customer list and audience can be great. That's just not what I'm talking about. So when we talk about your podcast, I think it's fantastic, right? You have an audience, I think it's fantastic. They tune in and hopefully they're growing and that's why they're coming back.

[15:57.1]
But if they listen to you for two years, you and they are not going to have a connection where they believe you understand them and you understand them because you're not spending time with them. But that doesn't make it bad. It's just not community. So when you talk about bringing people together in ways that they can generate relationships where they can be supportive and care about one another, we need all three of those because the first one, freedom.

[16:22.1]
If there's no freedom. And I say, listen, Greg, if you don't come to my pizza party, I know that you're not a team player and that you're a selfish bastard. Well, now that pizza party is no fun for you because I'm using coercion and it doesn't matter how good the pizza is or how, you know, pretty my friends are.

[16:38.2]
I'm course you to come. And that's a lousy pizza party. That's why we have to have freedom. We need growth. Because if you're not growing, Greg, it's some way you want to grow. And grow might mean you want to know more authors and know what's going on out there. And that might be enough. Why would you come back? Right? Because there's always Netflix and you don't need to, you know, drive to my house.

[16:57.6]
The one that I think is missing the most when people bring people together is giving people time and venue to create that connection. I want to get a bit more granular so we can make it sense to listeners who want to practice at home. When I talk about connection.

[17:13.0]
To make it easy, let's say I, need to get data. If I'm meeting with Greg, with Greg, I need to get data that Greg understands me both intellectually and emotionally. So it's not enough that Greg just knows intellectually.

[17:28.5]
Oh, yeah. Charles writes books and he studies religion and he lives in California and he has a son. Like, that's great. That's better than not knowing me. But unless I get a sense that you understand what it is to have something in the world that you think can help other people, help them, Grow, assuage their pain, help us mature as a people, as a generation, as a country, into something better that we want to be than we are today.

[17:52.5]
If I don't think that you have an emotional sense of that, then we're not really connected yet. And in order for me to get that data, we need to have a venue, Greg, that's intimate enough and quiet enough in which we have enough time to get that experience, which is probably going to look like a conversation.

[18:10.8]
It doesn't have to be, but it's probably going to look like a conversation. And I noticed, Greg, when I go in the world and I go to events that are meant to air quotes here, connect people, the people putting in those events don't know how people connect. And so they're often creating events that they've seen depicted in films, which means a giant room filled with lots of people with really loud music.

[18:31.4]
And because they're scared to death we might get bored. Greg and Charles talking, they're going to fill it with entertaining entertainment, which might mean a band, it might mean a video, it might mean some juggling act. And all Greg and Charles really want, if they showed up to connect as thought leaders, as media people, as, educated people and spiritual histories is a venue that's comfortable enough with an intention that we understand so we can have that experience where when we leave, Greg says, Charles knows what it means to schedule my life all year to say something interesting and worth listening to, that people will come back to get more.

[19:12.8]
And he knows that's a real commitment and it doesn't happen by accident. And I have to keep crafting my skills to make sure they get better and better at that as the world changes with technology and the media landscape. Well, look, I've spent a lot of time in your neck of the woods, and, a San Francisco area seems to be a proving ground for these type of events.

[19:36.4]
I used to go to spirituality and business conferences in downtown San Francisco, and I've been to Bioneers. I haven't been to wisdom 2.0, but, you know, I get called to go to that all the time.

[19:52.6]
These are all community events. Okay. Or they're at least, what do you call advertised as places where you're going to meet people, learn something, and you, you look at your three things. Freedom. I had the choice. No one made me go.

[20:08.6]
Connection. That's what I wanted to do, is make connection with people, and I wanted to grow. So in your term, what's this distinction between relative success versus community, maximizing success that you write about? And how can leaders recognize leaders, organizers of these events, which mindset they're operating from?

[20:29.3]
Because the reality is, is that I don't care if Google puts on an event or Microsoft puts on an event, or somebody puts on an event where people can come together in community and learn and grow and connect. What does that look like? How do you foster it? So there's two different questions there.

[20:47.7]
One is you wanted me to speak more about relative success and absolute success. And then the other one is, how do you foster it? How do you actually foster it? Yep. Two questions. Okay, well, do you want to handle them in order or do you want me to. No, go ahead and order.

[21:03.5]
Okay. So the idea of recognizing relative success compared to whole, community success is important because let's say we're getting together, people of authors, Greg, and you and I have an aspiration that authors are going to learn.

[21:18.9]
Well, how do we get a message out that we think is important? Maybe a message of growth, in a world where the media landscape is changing and the technology is changing. Right. And maybe if we get together a group of authors who are working on this, there will be collective growth.

[21:35.0]
If I show up, Greg, and you don't figure it out yet, but you figured out from my actions that I'm not really concerned about whether all authors or authors in our group are more effective in sharing a message of growth, But I just care that I win on being an effective famous author.

[21:56.4]
Then a couple things happen. Whenever asked someone asks me for a favor or I'm invited to collaborate, I'm always, looking at a checklist and calculating, well, how does Charles win from this interaction? Or said differently, there's little or probably no generosity.

[22:13.7]
Right. Everything is a transaction, and I want to make sure that I'm winning. And if I'm really cared about only relative success, it may be even less important to me that my reach grows over my perception that my reach is bigger than Greg's, which means I might even do things to sabotage you, Greg, just so that we get together at our monthly meetings, I have bigger numbers to brag about than you do.

[22:41.7]
And so I'm not really contributing for everybody's growth. I just want to see, well, how can I beat everybody? And that gets really dangerous. If we're, say, in sport or we're, say, studying, you know, in, a school and we're trying to study together, where we think we're coming together to help all of us grow together.

[22:58.7]
But it turns out one person in the room will sabotage anybody. Now, that can be hidden. As long as I'm doing well, it looks like I'm helping everybody. But then if somebody else starts getting better, well, that'll make me really nervous, and I'll start, you know, taking action consistent with that. And so some people think, well, we should put people in leadership in our communities if they're doing well.

[23:19.1]
Right. Well, be very careful. Some of them will start sabotaging as soon as they feel threatened. Interesting element there is that, you know, when you Bill or, you say you put on this event, spirituality and business, people are coming to connect and grow and.

[23:36.8]
And have the freedom to come. And. And there's the issue is the consciousness of the person that actually attends the event, which nobody knows. I mean, it's. Everybody's got a different level of consciousness as to why they're attending the event.

[23:53.6]
And you've just clearly explained that someone may be not giving, generously, it may be selfishly that they're doing that. I don't really know how you actually control that, and I don't think there is any control for that.

[24:12.5]
But many institutions that you speak about or organizations are trying to build community online. And you had just mentioned a minute ago I could have a zillion followers. But it means, and I, I totally agree with you. Because I don't get any sense of the fact that the people have a positive or a negative one way or the other.

[24:37.0]
It's almost kind of neutral. Right. It's like I devour your content, but I don't really come back to you. So where this question is going. But you noted in the book that the salvation will not happen online.

[24:55.2]
All right, so I get it. What fundamental elements of human connection are we missing in these digital interactions? Because you're addressing an audience right now that probably has a belief set that, you know, you're speaking to them over this podcast, that, hey, this connection online is important.

[25:16.8]
I totally agree with you, Charles, which is why I've had you back on again. Yeah, great. Because it can be extremely lonely being a podcaster and actually putting things into the airwaves and not hearing back from any of the people.

[25:32.5]
Right. That you hopefully are helping. This is a very. You've gotten to a point where I'm being completely vulnerable with you right now. As Bernie Brown says, I think it's important and fundamentally that this is the world we live in.

[25:49.0]
And I'm not asking for a way out, I'm asking for a way to understand it. I'm glad you asked, Greg. So, when I'm talking to people about this, I ask them to look at their own numbers.

[26:06.8]
And I'm thinking about a friend of mine who spent hundreds of hours on a social media platform that was audio based. And you'd go into rooms, you could change rooms and go into rooms, they're experts. And listen to them for hundreds of hours. It, you know, it was, I won't mention it, but it was valued at well over a billion dollars.

[26:24.2]
It was a big deal during the, pandemic. And I asked her, you know, after you spent those hundreds of hours and were so excited about that, as she called it, community, how many of those people that you met connected with in those hundreds of hours can you call now?

[26:41.4]
If you get a bad diagnosis or need to move, how many of them would you call and would help? And the answer was exactly zero. And I asked her, if you had invested 10% of those hundreds of hours you spent on that audio social media platform and instead had gone in your neighborhood and found other moms and invited those other moms to have muffins and tea in your backyard or walk the park together, do you think that number would be the same?

[27:15.7]
And of course she knew the answer right away. If she had spent 10% of those hours over those pandemic years meeting other moms walking around a park, she would have many people she could call on the day she gets a bad diagnosis or needs to move. So the numbers online don't mean very much, when we talk about, well, who's available to us on the days when we need help.

[27:40.3]
And I want to go one more layer, Greg, even more importantly on the days they need help. So online connections aren't bad. And there are a few outlier conditions in which they're very helpful. And one of those is when people want to gather around an identity that has stigma and they don't want coworkers to know or family members or troops members to know they're dealing with something, addiction, for example.

[28:05.4]
And that could be dangerous for them to be outed. Another one is when people are just physically unable to move from, say, sickness. So there are cases where that online, option is better than their other options, but it doesn't make it a fundamentally good one for everybody.

[28:26.4]
And one of the things that's happening when we talk about online connection is we know it takes longer to build a connection, digitally mediated than it does in real life. In fact, much longer. I believe it's 5x, but I'm assuming there's a spread on that. We also know that people don't want to spend time online.

[28:44.5]
So I'm going to give you an example, Greg. You know, if I were to invite you, and I'm going to make this real, Greg, when you come to Berkeley, if you want to come over to my house, I will make you noodles. And we can sit in my table in my 19th century, my early 20th century house and share a hot bowl of noodles.

[29:01.9]
And you know what? I'm probably gonna make sure there's cut fruit and dessert as well. So if you want to come from 6 o' clock to 9 o' clock on a Friday, I would be delighted to host you, you might even accept that. You take it up. Great. If I say, hey, Greg, you know, obviously you're not gonna eat Berkeley this, this week.

[29:17.7]
How about this? How about next Friday? We just scheduled to get online on a zoom call from 9pm from 6pm to 9pm and we'll do that instead. Are you up for that? I. Yeah, I guess. I. What I saying is you don't have the physical connection that I would if I came through the door of your house and experienced the food.

[29:39.3]
Yes, I get that. And most people would not accept a three hour zoom call on a Friday night. Right. You might be the exception, Mr. Over 1200 author connection. I might be, but I actually do. I love my free time.

[29:57.0]
My time for me. Right. So that, that brings me to this because I have a son who's having a birthday today. We talked two days ago. I have not yet called him. He's 44 years old. And you, you share this powerful tradition of making birthday calls to acknowledge people who've made a difference in your life.

[30:18.2]
He certainly made a huge difference in my life. How'd this practice start for you? And what in is impacts has it had? Because in a previous business that I had, I used to call people and send them birthday cards.

[30:35.5]
I don't do any of it anymore. Don't ask me why, but the reality is, obviously it's extremely important. You wouldn't have mentioned it in the book. How did it start? Well, I knew that at one point a mentor of mine encouraged me to sit down, once a year.

[30:53.9]
Birthdays are a really good option for that. And just write what's going on in your life. Family, spirit, work, physical fitness, health, travel, whatever it is, because we're all going to forget in years to come what was. I remember some highlights, but I don't remember what was I really dizzling, what was all the things going on.

[31:13.1]
And that's a way to track how am I growing and how am I changing, how am I developing? And one of the things that happens when we sit down and reflect, well, how did last year go at all these levels is of course, we think of all the people that participated in my sport and my work and in my family and at church.

[31:32.0]
And of course, some of those people made a big difference. And one of the things I'm aware of is all of my success, happened because many, many, many, many people showed up to help me make it so. And it's literally more names than I can remember.

[31:50.0]
So what a difference would make if, while I'm thinking about last year, I write a list of the people who made a difference in that year. And all those things I'm writing about successes and failures and growth and changes. And I call Them and didn't tell them they're the best person in the world, didn't tell them they're the best friend a person could have, didn't tell them I'd be nobody without them.

[32:09.9]
But I just say, Greg, this year you had me on your podcast. One of the things I want to do is share an idea that could change millions of lives and help people grow into people they want to be and support people they care about. And if someone doesn't invite me on their podcast and help me share this message and take me seriously and treat me with respect, guess what?

[32:29.9]
I don't get to do this. You did that, and it makes a difference. And I want you to know I noticed that. Thank you. I appreciate that. And you know that's genuine. I do. Well. And now our relationship just changed because you know that I recognize that you made a commitment that made a difference for me.

[32:50.3]
And that was true before I said that, but now that I've said that, you know that I know, and I know that you know that I'm not blind to this. Well, our relationship has changed. How would all of our lives be different if there were 20 people around us who knew, with.

[33:10.0]
With total certainty that we recognize they make a difference for our lives and they matter? My guess is we'd all be stronger in handling all the challenges we take on all year long. And quite frankly, that's something I want and that's something that comes out of this commitment.

[33:26.6]
It's a. Such an important point. And I think even if my listeners take away, picking up the birthdays of 10 people in your life and making the calls, it'll make a huge difference. And I think that's one that kind of leads me down to the next question with you.

[33:48.4]
And, you know, you. You speak about gratitude, and I think that gratitude is so important. And thanks for that, that you just gave me meaning, the acknowledgement of that. But one of the things in your book is you said how invitation power works even when people decline invitations.

[34:13.1]
Can you explain this counterintuitive idea and how it applies to community building? Because, look, I gave you an invitation to be back on the show. You could have said no, I'm, not going to be. I don't have the time.

[34:29.0]
You didn't. You were gracious enough to say yes again. So tell us about that. Well, I noticed when I talk about the importance of inviting people in a culture where I've noticed people want to skip the invitations, it's a really important conversation to Talk about, by the way, if you're not inviting anybody to things, then let's not be surprised that people are not gathering and connecting.

[34:52.6]
Right? I noticed there's a lot of fear that if invitees declined the invitation, that somehow there was disaster or someone was harmed or they created a problem. And it was so confusing to me and Greg.

[35:08.4]
You and I know because we've seen the research. We're living in a country of people who are disconnected and lonely. Maybe not exactly everybody, but at least half right, Certain general would say the majority. We are surrounded by people. Well, what I've noticed is all of us that want to be more connected, we want invitations.

[35:28.1]
So Greg, if you invite me to share, barbecue in your backyard, it could be that I'm so busy taking care of a sick family member that I can't ever leave my home after 4pm Because I got to administer medicines and you know, and, and observe the reaction. It could be that I'm so busy working so many jobs that I'm so exhausted I'm not working, I just got collapsed in my bed.

[35:49.9]
You don't know when you invite me, right. So I may say no. Because both of those things, things are true. I will have appreciated that Greg thinks that I belong with Greg, in this case, in Greg's backyard, in his free time.

[36:06.6]
Which is to say, even if I turn you down every time, Greg, you will have given me a data point that someone thinks that I belong with them. Here's the other funny thing that happens when you extend invitations, even when people say no, we are telling the world, in this case, you're telling me, Greg, that you have the power to bring people together.

[36:30.5]
And my guess is, Greg, in every chapter in your life, where you felt lonely, maybe you moved a new place, or, you got sick in a way that you couldn't be connected that you were before. My guess is, in every one of those chapters, you would have really liked to learn that somebody who has the power to bring people together thought you belonged with them.

[36:51.7]
And that's always happening every time we invite, whether people say yes or no. And I'll tell you, Greg, I actually like it when people say no to me. Not because I don't want them to come, not because it was a false invitation. It's if I invite you, Greg, to have noodles in my home in Berkeley, and you say no, I know that you're doing something with your life more important to you at that moment than have noodles with me, God bless you.

[37:17.0]
That could Be taken care of a sick relative. And I know that you now have data that I'd love you to spend time with me. And I think you belong with me, at least over bowl of noodles. And I know that you recognize that I see that you're someone in your life worth knowing.

[37:33.3]
And all that happens when you say no. And I get to invite you next time and we'll see if you say no then too. Well, you personally meaning Charles, you have an interesting perspective and an egoless, attitude in the way in which you frame that.

[37:51.7]
And I think it, it'd be so important for people to kind of understand and really look at things that way. And I'm hoping by what you just said just now that literally that's what happens is that people can shift the perspective about the no's that they get and really understand that something more important is going on in their life and you respect them for it and you continue to send them an invitation.

[38:22.2]
You say that the role of vulnerability, or you call it, what role does vulnerability play in creating authentic community? I just told you a second ago, I was pretty vulnerable to you by telling you I built a community. I don't know how many of them care or don't care.

[38:38.7]
And how can leaders model appropriate vulnerability without oversharing? Okay, so I think this is a big one because there's a lot of leaders out there that, I don't think whether they're male or female, they want to follow Bernee Brown about being vulnerable.

[39:02.9]
Okay. So my understanding, as the research shows, that vulnerability is critical for building deep connections. With that said, vulnerability looks very different for different cultures and subcultures. And what looks really vulnerable, among say, Filipina grandmothers gathering.

[39:26.0]
Is not how vulnerability is going to look for, West Coast American war, fighting veterans. They're just different cultures. And we need to have some kind of vulnerability because we don't have vulnerability. What's going on is we're presenting what I call our avatar, the version of ourselves we think other people want to see, which is not necessarily the version of us that we need to see data, that they understand intellectually at some level, understand emotionally and accept who we are as we are in that moment.

[40:03.5]
So they're getting to know some kind of fake version of Charles. Well, if you get to know some fake version of Charles, by definition we can't have a deep connection because you have a connection with a fake version of Charles. Now how much I share is going to change by my own comfort, how safe the space is and of course your own culture.

[40:20.7]
Right. So, when I say vulnerability, it doesn't mean within the first two hours you share deep tragedies or the hardest things in your life going on, but that you share something that, well, Brene Brown would say, you know, was about emotional, emotional risk.

[40:46.4]
So I don't know any way of getting around that. But we can understand that it's going to look different from different levels of people. And how do we share oversharing? Well, you're, between the two of us, you're the one with a psychiatric education, so I think you'd actually speak to this much better than I can. When I'm teaching about how we create vulnerable spaces, or rather spaces where vulnerability might show up.

[41:06.7]
We need to recognize that we're not asking for people to share everything that there is to share everything that's painful, that it needs to be measured and we notice that someone can't measure it adequately, that we need to protect them in the sense that we need to, in the most polite way possible, validate their efforts and then invite them to, you know, participate in, you know, a less, such a less open way.

[41:37.6]
I'm not a counselor, Greg, so I don't pretend to be good at this. I just know that we're not asking people to turn on valves and let the valves, you know, flow out. Flow out. And, and, and again, I, I think it's the degree of comfort that one has with When, when I was in the psychology, it was client, counselor and third party independent observer.

[42:01.9]
Right. So the observer was supposed to be observing how the counselor was doing with the client. Right. So however that client did whatever open ended questions were being used to get, the client to be a little more vulnerable.

[42:18.3]
Right. Very, interesting what you just said. And I, many times, no matter, I think it's degree of, I think this is what happens is I think you said it. You're not going to turn the spigot on full force.

[42:33.7]
You're going to let a little trickle come out first and then you're going to turn it on a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. And at some point you break through this emotional barrier that where people were saying, hey, this is really the true problem. You know, I, you know, my father beat me when I was a child or whatever it might be.

[42:54.0]
And I think that gets down to some of the studies that have been done around adverse childhood experiences because people who, who've had that have emotional baggage that they're carrying. So let me kind of wrap this thing up because, you know, since writing this expanded edition, I'd, like to know what are one of, what are some of the most surprising or meaningful feedback you've reached about these principles, that has changed someone's life.

[43:29.3]
Because I'm going to just tell everybody today, if you're looking to, build more community, actually, Charles is the key guy. You want to go to this book, the Art of Community

[43:47.3]
Whether it's business or it's personal, you want to get Charles's book. So, Charles, what would you say, to that last question? In this new edition of this book, what surprised you the most? What's the most meaningful feedback you've received?

[44:05.1]
Well, I've been talking about these principles for years now because the first edition came out in 2016. And I've heard from many people that when we distinguish the importance of intimate experiences and the failure of large noisy events connecting people. That gave people permission to create intimate experiences and understand the value of inviting neighbors or pickleball partners to a very intimate experiences.

[44:29.4]
And then when we, combine that with the power of invitations, whether people accept them or not, and we combine invitations and intimate experiences, I've heard many, many stories of families and neighborhoods and schools transforming how they gather away from creating a couple, maybe two big, expensive, highly produced events a year that people can't connect that because it's literally too noisy to just seeing.

[44:55.7]
You know, all we really need is soup and bread. All we need are walks around the park. All we need is gathering for drinks around a campfire in a backyard. And that's actually how we're going to connect. And that's been very, very moving.

[45:14.0]
Goes back to the old ancient American Indian traditions that used to be around the campfire and pass the talking stick. I remember going to many meetings at, Levi Strauss in downtown San Francisco. There was a gentleman there that would hold gatherings in the basement and we would pass a talking stick.

[45:34.9]
And it was amazing what we actually heard from individuals working in this huge company, Levi Strauss, with the talking stick because they had the time when you got the stick, you, nobody else talked once the stick got, moved on and the next question came through.

[45:57.0]
And those gatherings were just so enriching and so many great relationships came from them. They really did. So I want to thank you for continuing to hold the space for this to occur.

[46:14.9]
I, know I have smaller communities like meditation groups on the Orcus Islands that I go to that over the number of years I've built huge friendships from. And it's those small communities where we gathered food together and we cooked for one another and we meditated together that we really build strong friendship.

[46:33.9]
So I know what it's like. It's just that it doesn't seem anymore to happen as frequently. Enough. Enough is the key. I noticed. Greg, in all that description you just gave us, you never mentioned, an online group.

[46:50.6]
No, I did not. No, I did not. So your point is well taken. Thank you very much, Charles. It's been a pleasure having you on. Namaste, my friend. Thanks for. It's wonderful to be invited. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to share your book, your wisdom, your insight, your research.

[47:08.9]
And I'm sure my listeners are going to get a lot out of the Art of Community. You want to hold it back up one last time, the second edition. Go out and get a copy at Amazon. It's not expensive. Go to his website, which is just Charles vogl.com, and there you can learn more about all of the offerings and things that he's doing.

[47:29.9]
Put links to that also in the blog. Thanks, Charles. Greg, let me, let me mention that we have free downloads on that site, including, events guidelines for organizations and educators and military families. And that's free. And so people who want to create events that are better at connecting people in creating relationships they're aspiring to form under growth resources, everybody, it says downloads, right there and then he's got online seminars, articles, Google case studies, community, Dean's project, even got a podcast.

[48:02.4]
Work with Charles. You can actually go there. Leadership development, advising in person. You'll see more there. And his keynote speaking. Based on what you've heard from him today, I would suggest hiring for your next event, because he's certainly going to make a change in your organization.

[48:18.6]
Charles, thanks so much for being on again. Thank you, Greg.