Welcome back to Inside personal growth. This is Greg Voisin, the host of inside personal growth. And for all of you, we have a special guest today. Her name is Cynthia Kane, and the book is called the pause principle, how to keep your cool in tough situations. And I know that for many listeners, maybe right now, we're feeling extra stressed and maybe a little anxious and we're getting angry and we're getting frustrated, and sometimes we take that out on others, and so we've really got to think that through. But Cynthia, welcome to the show.

Thank you. I'm really happy to be with you today.

Well, I'm happy to have you. I'm going to let the litter listeners know tad bit about you. She's the author of this pause principle, but she's also the author of some other books we're going to mention here, not just this one. This is a Wiley 2025 book. She's the CEO and founder of the Kane intentional communications Institute LLC, a certified meditation and mindfulness instructor and breath coach, somatic breathing, no, just breath. Okay, just breath. Not yet. That works. Yeah, she focuses on the moment before we express ourselves, the space between someone saying something and our reacting to it, and for us to show up in a way that we respect during difficult and stressful situations, we must first learn to pause. She's tried and tested this soften principle, which we're going to talk about. And as I said, She is the author of other books which we're going to have her on the show for, and she's reached around 70,000 people to change the way they communicate, both personally and in the business, she's, as I said, the founder of the Kane intentional communication Institute. And we're going to put a link to that Cynthia so that everybody can go up to your website. I can just say right now that the best way to get there is just intentional communication. Oh, well, maybe not certification. Is that what

the best way to get there would just be Kane communicate.com

Kane communicate.com Okay, well, let's start off here by just speaking with you. I mean, we all find ourselves in this position, tough positions at one point or another, whether it's at business or home, yeah, and the Oh, and you open the book by sharing how you came to realize the important of pausing. And if you would, could you tell the audience about your own aha moment with the pause principle? Because that's probably the most important one. That's the one set you off writing the book.

Yeah, well, I will say that this really began, I feel like a long time ago, but I I was really set off with writing this specific book, because I, well, I used to be a really horrible communicator. I was very passive aggressive, very judgmental. I had a really hard time expressing myself. I had a real challenge navigating silence. I really felt like I needed to fill the space, and I didn't realize at the time how much the way that I was communicating was affecting my day to day life and my relationships. And I lost my first love very unexpectedly, and when that happened, I was really in this constant state of discomfort, and I was really trying to figure out how to feel better in the world, and what everyone else was sharing with me was wonderful, though it didn't it wasn't working for me. I realized in that moment I was going to have to really figure this out on my own. And so I went and I, you know, I took a lot of courses, and I read a lot of books, and I took a lot of seminars and went to retreats and things of that sort. And what I was noticing was everything was coming back to communication, but I wasn't really figuring out the steps or the practices to change or to figure out what that actually meant. And then I was introduced to a meditation and writing workshop at the Shambhala Institute in New York when I lived there. And that's where I found meditation. I'd never meditated before in my entire life. And that's where I learned the elements of right speech in Buddhism. And so I started learning, you know, all these different practices that were helping me change the way that I was communicating, and I realized what was happening as I started to practice this on my own, was that it was really changing the way that I was handling difficult conversations and these really tough situations where before I would walk away or shut down, I was really able to access myself in the moment and be able to express myself in a kind, honest and helpful way. And it was really expanding my capacity for discomfort. And what I noticed over time, as I began teaching this was that this was becoming more and more present within the workplace. I was noticing a lot of companies having their employees take my training program, and really seeing that, you know, this was something that a lot of people in the workplace are struggling with, not only for themselves, but also at more of the leadership level. And so I really wanted to bring my work into this space to to really show the impact, you know, pausing and expanding that place of discomfort so that we can show up in a way that we respect, can have within the business context, right within, like this world specifically,

well, it's a great explanation, and it's a great way that you got there right through, yeah, you know, you said you lost your love, and then you really realized what you were doing. And you know, that was your aha moment. And I think many people, awareness is the first step. Awareness of what we're doing. If your pause principle brings awareness to this, then it's done its job. Because all the books you've written on Buddhism, you know how to communicate like a Buddhist and so on, really, that is the important part is this pause. So you mentioned that most communication trainings will kind of skip the body entirely, yes. And in your case, okay, we're not probably doing Transcendental Meditation, but we're doing meditation. Why is the body so central to how we react and communicate under stress? What is it that happens physically to the body? I know for me, I tense up my stomach. Yeah, I feel a knot in my stomach. It's a situation I don't want to handle, or I move away from like you said you were. You just avoid it, yeah. How can you help people overcome that? Like aching belly, feeling that they're like, No, I don't really want to confront this. I don't want to go there, and if I do, it's gonna really be a mess.

Yeah, yes, for sure. I mean, I think that the body is often overlooked because we do not want to deal with any emotion that we're feeling or sensation that we're feeling that's uncomfortable, and we want to get rid of it very quickly, or ignore that it's there, or get over it somehow so that we can just move on to the next piece. And for me, the body is key to communicating, because it really is your first clue that something is off within the interaction. And especially for you, your body is signaling to you that you are in a state of stress, and it's signaling to you that it feels uncomfortable or it feels threatened in some way. It really is our our bodies go into the stress response very quickly, and we are, you know, cortisol gets pumped through the body, and that's the stress hormone. And so it's almost as if you know we are back in the caveman days being chased by tigers, though nowadays, right? It really is the conversations that we're having, the the interactions that we're having that are causing this intensity that happens in the body. So you feel that sensation, that discomfort, and instead of turning away from it or ignoring it, our work in that moment is actually, can I turn towards that sensation? Can I turn towards that discomfort? Can I welcome that discomfort? Can I allow it in and have it be my cue to know okay, I'm in this stressful state. There's another way for me to interact right now, usually right. My default way would be to give over to this stress response and to give over to the emotion and to react like I always do. But now the sensation is telling me, okay, you get this opportunity right now to grab a tool, to grab a practice, to help calm the body so that then you can interact in a way that you respect, right? So it really is seeing in that moment. Can we not judge or evaluate the sensation that's there, but can we turn toward it, notice that it's there to help us and use what it's telling us to then express ourselves?

I would agree with that, although I think many people listening is they'll they'll say, hey, Cynthia, the inverse happens. Yeah, it's, it's not, and it, I know it's like stepping into fear. Yeah, they say, step fear right in the eye. And you will actually work through it, or grow through it. And you frame this pros principle around soften model, s, O, F, T, E, N, could you briefly walk the listeners through what it stands for and how it helps people navigate these difficult conversations? Because I think at the core, if they can get this soften thing, they pretty much can get most of the book right. Yeah. This is, this is what I'll help you get through here. Yeah.

So soften, really. First off, that is what we are wanting to do in these challenging situations, because our instinct is to be hard in those moments, right? It is to kind of push away, defend ourselves, put our armor up. And so our one is, how can we actually do the opposite in these challenging moments? How can we soften and so soften? It is an acronym, so the first part of it is sensation, and this is really what we've been talking about in terms of the body, what's happening in the body, and just starting to notice the unpleasant sensations that are there when we're in tough moments. So whether that's that pit in the stomach or maybe your jaw starts getting really tight. Maybe you can feel your heart beating really fast, or maybe starting to sweat a little bit more, or even just noticing that you're you know, you're tightening up your arms, your fists, so we start to pay attention to what is happening to our body in this moment, and that is really the prerequisite. It's kind of what you were referencing to before this. I This awareness, right? We now have the awareness that we are in a stressful state, or that we are uncomfortable in some way. So now that we have that, then we can reach for a practice so o, in soften stands for own, your discomfort, and usually in these challenging moments, we have a tendency to just be very focused outwardly and on, you know, what the other person isn't doing, or what should be happening, what isn't happening, right? And our work instead is, can we turn our attention towards ourself in that moment and soothe our own suffering so we know that we're feeling uncomfortable? So can we, you know, bring in a practice to help us validate ourself in that moment, right? So that could look like, you know, it could look like just rubbing on, I was

going to say, Cynthia, I like the fact that you're going to use almost some, like, some of the tapping principles the ear. Yeah, I heard you say that. I hated to interrupt, but I kept thinking about, oh, oh. And I was thinking, Oh, soften ought to have. Oh, man, I

would love that. I mean that that would be great if we could get it in there. So, yeah,

because the reality is what I've found. And I'm not saying that your model is incorrect or correct, I'm saying that it is one way to get there. Yeah, I found if you can just take a deep breath and you can say, oh, like, your Buddhist practices would tell you, it's like, it's like, reboot, it is, right? And, you know, people often ask me, and they say, Well, what is that thing around your neck, right? And I say, well, that's my own, right. And there's, it amazes me, Cynthia, how many people don't know what this is, yeah, but I do recognize the value. And just like slowing down, pausing, becoming aware, deep breath in and out and ohm. Now I think this thing to actually, when you're in corporations or businesses, sometimes you can't get that right exactly, Oh, you want me to. I'm not gonna be I'm not gonna do the Buddhist thing, but I will tap my forehead if you tell right, I

will pull my ear right. I'll do the things that are more subtle, right? And now trying to go with it, yeah, yeah. So that it's easy to access in those moments, right? Even if it's just finger tapping, you know, your thumb to your pointer, to your middle, to your ring, to your pinky, and just doing that underneath the table, right? It just shows your body that you're that you're okay, that you're safe, right, even just, you know, rubbing from the top of the shoulder down to the wrist, right? Just subtle, subtle movements like that really help us reach that Omn state. So owning your own suffering is one of them. Another, other practices that you can do is the F which is focusing on the present moment, right? So that really is in, I mean, in a work setting, it looks more like, you know, you feel that sensation, and you just start maybe broadcasting or labeling what you're seeing, right? Like picture on the wall, pen on the table, coffee cup chair, but you're silently saying it to yourself.

I've had this on my desk, Cynthia for

Oh, being here

now this, this sits here all the time. And then I have a clock that says now, but it has no hands on it, yeah. It just has a thing that goes back and forth. And I think the key is you have to get into a space. What you're actually doing is you're helping people alter the space they were in, in an immediate sense, through awareness, to shift that space, to recognize that it's okay,

exactly right. Yeah, yeah. So what is the two. So

the T is, take a breath, right? We know that most people will say, just take a breath. And I think the awareness piece, you have to have the awareness before you can even know that you need to take a breath. Because most of us, actually, we don't breathe when we're in tough situations, we forget that we're breathing. So we breathe a lot from the chest. So if we can even start to just move the belly, move the breath into the belly, so we breathe from the belly instead of the chest. Or you can do a breathing pattern, like inhaling for five, holding for five, exhaling for five. These are breath patterns are great, because people can't tell what you're doing. You know when you're in these, these moments with others. And then the E is, eyes toward another. So this is where we're really seeing if we can look at the other person or group of people with friendly eyes. Can we see them as people that we want to be helpful to, supportive of, people that we have an appreciation for, and if we can turn them back into someone that is human again, because usually people turn into the enemy pretty quickly in tough situations, and then the n is need to say. So this is really focusing on less about what we need to say to other people, and more what we need to say to ourselves in these moments, so that we feel more calm, so that we're able to handle the next moment. So one word that you actually can say is soften. You can say it, you know, three times and yeah, like a mantra. So it's really finding the words that cue your body to that space of rest and calm so that you can reset right, like the Omn. I mean, you could use Omn here for sure. Well,

you had a there's a quote in here from Pema Chodron, be fully present. Feel your heart and engage the next moment without an agenda. I liked the the the the the quote, without an agenda? Yeah, many people in business have an agenda. It's like, well, we've got to get this done, this done, this done. And for that reason, they're not present, right? They're not there, they're not listening. It's easy to get angry and frustrated because the meeting's not going the way you want, or you think it's taking too long, or whatever it might be, yeah. So many leaders fear that this softening means losing an edge or authority. Okay, so when you see a CEO come in to a meeting, you'll find that the whole energy of the room changes, all eyes, and then what he or she says is kind of like, well, that's what we're supposed to be doing here, right? Yeah. So how do you help leaders? Because those kind of leaders, I've interviewed Guy Kawasaki, many times. He said Steve Jobs used to come into the room, and Jobs was a very tough man to work for, but he did recognize one thing spiritually. You know, he had been to India's studying Paramahansa, Yogananda, and he used to tell people to leave their egos at the door, even though the one with the biggest ego was him, right, right. Sometimes he couldn't leave his ego at the door, but he would tell others he had enough awareness that the only way they were can get anything done during the meetings is when everybody let go of their egos. Yeah, because otherwise it was just so that's where this edge and authority comes. So how do you help leaders reframe the idea of softening as a strengthening rather than a weakness? Because they don't always look at it, no strengthening. No,

they don't. I usually liken it to martial arts, because I think that you know when somebody is attacking you, let's say, and you are very rigid, and you are,

you know, very reactive, yeah,

you let the energy move through you or past you. Exactly. I'm not blocking you, I'm moving

around you, right? And that's what this is, right? Yeah, so when you soften, you're able to pivot, you're able to be more flexible, you're able to flow, and you're no longer held back by obstacles in your way, right? You don't break as easily.

I mean, it's so important what you say, because the the this pause principle, if people would just get it, if they take the time to become aware it's it's so important. Now we all have heard about the parasynthetic nerve system, yeah, and it's the key to pausing. Can you explain how understanding this biological system could help our listeners improve their reactions? Because I think many people it's automatic pilot. They don't recognize the super conscious, the conscious, the subconscious, right? They're basically just thinking. I don't know how this happens. I don't know about the neuro pathways and how they fire and wire together. So can you tell the listeners some more about that?

Yeah, so, I mean, I liken the parasympathetic nervous system to the moment that you you know, maybe you've woken up before everyone in your house, and it's just like that moment of quiet where you're walking outside and you notice the sky or the trees, or you start listening to the birds, or maybe on vacation, right? You get that moment where you just feel rest and you just feel calm. And when we are in that rest and that calm, then we are able to, you know, be creative, we're able to laugh, we're able to enjoy, we're able to access our logic and our reason because we are feeling so at ease and it it is, I think what is really important is just understanding that We all go through the sympathetic and the parasympathetic throughout the day. So you've already experienced it. Whether we know what it is or we don't know what it is, we've experienced it through that moment where we just let ourselves be as we are, without judgment and evaluation,

right? It's a really important point you talk about, and I, you know, this parasynthetic Nervous System and helping us make it recognizes about how it how it works, how we react. I frequently say it's, you know, most business people are about doing, not about being, yeah, so this whole space of, I call it the being doing conundrum. It's like, Well, we came in this meeting to do and you're telling us to just be right? Well, we don't really know how to be with each other, because this is what we've done. And I love what you did is, you know, Victor Frankl, famous book you said, between stimulus and response, there's a space, okay? And I totally agree with it, but very few people ever access the space. So how does your work bring this powerful insight to life, practically, for leaders, middle managers, and even the people in the you know, the front line, doing the work? Because, yeah, it is that between the stimulus and response, the space where this happens? Yeah, where the true work happens?

Mm, hmm, it is where the true work happens. And it is, it is with the first the awareness of what is happening now, right? The awareness that in these moments, things are happening very, very quickly. And we, most of us, are on automatic right? And so when we have the awareness that this isn't working anymore, or this isn't giving us the outcome that we're after, we want to learn how how to do something differently, right? We want to figure out how can I show up in this interaction so that I can create, you know, a space where someone else feels more comfortable to share or to express, where I can create more trust and more, you know, loyalty and more collaboration. And it really starts from that, that need right, the need for something to look different, or for it to be different. And then it turns into paying attention to that sensation. Okay, I'm in this conversation. I'm feeling that sensation of urgency. I really want to get this done. I really want to get to, you know, the last item on the list. I want to be into the next meeting. It's noticing that sensation and then taking that breath, doing finger tapping, you know, talking to yourself differently in that moment to calm that urgency, to calm the sensation down, so then it disappears, and that is the expansion of the space that is where you end up having that space between the stimulus and the response, because you regain control over what is happening in the interaction or in the moment. So then you've done that work, and there you are able to guide and and, you know, reframe, reset, move back to your intention for what it is that you want to do within this meeting in a way that is kind honest and helpful.

How do you address this big digital challenge? You know, I go back to a time when my son and I, it isn't that long ago, did a workshop called Never mind the noise thriving in a world of ever increasing complexity, and we talked about many of these same things, yeah, and we would have people from the logistics industry, so you're talking about FedEx and Amazon and whatever, and they'd come in, we'd ask them to meditate for 15 minutes, and they'd never meditated before. Yeah. What ended up happening is tell this real quick, because it's actually an interesting story. Made these people sign up for this breakout session, and everybody started telling everybody else, and then they were waiting out the door, and the line to get into our actual breakout session got bigger and bigger, because they said they felt so good. Yeah, after they meditated for 15 minutes, they've never felt that in their life. So here's here's what I want to get to, the stats about how toxic the workplace are. I think everybody knows it costs billions of dollars. How would you guide a leader today to be more sensitive to this problem, this issue, and to shift the culture in a way that it embraces this versus shuns it. Because it's one thing to talk about. It's another thing to get it to be embraced Yes, and allow it to happen and let it, you know, spread like a virus. But I don't think my son and I were successful after all those workshops and seminars and getting much of it, just even

after all those people were meditating.

Yeah, it's true. I mean, we don't know how much of it stuck. Way I look at is, if there was one person that walked out of every one of those events that it changed their life. We'd done our work. Yeah, right. So it's, it's, it's, like a one person at a time. It is, it

is, yeah. I mean, I, I really think that this work, if it starts from the top down, that is really where it begins. Because the challenge I found is that, you know, it's really companies paying for the employees to take the training, but the actual managers and the CEOs and all that are really the ones where the work needs to begin, right? And so in terms of, you know, working at that level. It really is around starting to see the benefits that come from finding this pause, the benefits that come from, you know, being in a group and seeing how others start to open up and share, and you know, there's less turnover, and there's more creativity and more productivity, and people really start to thrive in their well being, their overall well being improves, right? Their interest and engagement and work improves all based on how one person is communicating. It changes. I think,

your example, and we're going to ask for one because, you know, in in command and control environments, you know, and up through the Industrial Revolution into, let's just call it the agricultural to industrial, to the computer age, to whatever age you want to say we're in now, yes, we've seen more people kind of embrace Less than a command a control environment. But then when COVID came, it was just the opposite, where people are all at home and you know, there was an issue, and now they're all saying, then come back. And I'm hearing, hearing from many that nothing changed, yeah, um, it was like, now we want to come in to control even more, because we feel like we lost money when you were away because you weren't doing what you were supposed to be doing. I think that's kind of silly, but it is what it is. How have you seen organizations change when leaders consistently apply the pause principle? And do you have any success stories? Because that's where our listeners can really have a takeaway?

Well, I mean, I think success stories would be, you know, when certain teams begin to change based off of a manager's response to them, right? I've seen lots of managers who, in the beginning, like before, learning how to pause and engage and communicate differently, right? I've seen so many teams at odds with one another and mistrust and just, you know, a lot of mistrust from the manager to the team and then the team to the manager, and the moment that the manager finds that space drops that evaluation and judgment is open, right? I mean, the the teams themselves, they really start to they start to change, like I mentioned before. They become way more creative. They start really relying on one another more, and it's just a more fun environment. There's a lot less actually, yeah, I mean, and they become more human, and I think that that's the, one of the big pieces with this too, with just, you know, AI and all that that's happening now in the world, being more human is what we have. That is our superpower, right? And so really being able to connect and meet at the same level, even though we may be in a position that is above. I mean, that is really where, I mean, I really believe, and I've seen that that's really where companies start to thrive, right? Well, so it's challenging. The humanness is challenging, because a lot of leaders do not want to show show that side, but that's really what it's requiring right now.

So just paint a picture. I'm a middle manager in a company, and I'm out there running like I always run at a million miles an hour to try and keep my teams going, and yeah, answer to all the people above me, because it's layers, right? Yeah, Mm hmm. What are some of the daily habits or mindfulness exercises that you recommending for strengthening this skill? Because you know, when you allow yourself to get caught in that noise, that traffic. It's almost like getting caught in a traffic jam. You know, you're trying to get to another destination, but you're caught and you're late, yeah? And so you're stressed. I use this as an example. And even sitting in the car and doing breaths, yeah, you say, calm down. I'll get there, right? I know it's strengthened this habit, but how can you get individuals to recognize the power of this practice and the peace that's associated with this practice, because chaos ensues without it, yeah, peace comes with it, yeah. And I think we don't live in such peaceful times. No,

we don't, yeah. I mean, I, I, I mean, one practice that one can do right outside of it, is meditation. So it really is finding, you know, even if it's five minutes, it doesn't have we don't have to sit for 2040, minutes all the time. You know, even if we just find five minutes to close our eyes and do a quick body scan, relaxing, you know, our selves, from the head to the toes.

How do they, Cynthia, get rid of the monkey mind? Well,

so you're really just noticing the monkey mind, right? Like, that's all you're doing. You're not, because

most are, most new meditators. They'll tell you, Oh, my God, my mind's going a million miles an hour for sure, right? Yeah, I think I'll just give a little hint here. You know, a long time ago, I learned this technique from somebody who's he is a meditator, but he called it the mind dump. And he said, before you go into a meditation, write everything down on a piece of paper that's on your mind, even if it takes three minutes to jot down. Oh, I gotta see mom. I gotta go pick up her prescription. I gotta take the kids to school. I got all these things that you have to do today, so just write them all down. Put them down. Take your five minutes, then go into your meditation and see how much different it is. Yeah,

I mean, I bet it would be very different. I for me, I really believe that is that having all the monkey mind is what meditation is. I really believe that it is like training your brain to notice distraction, leave it and then come back to the present. So it is, you know, if you close your eyes, even just for 30 seconds, and you notice that your mind is all over, and you're thinking all over, you know, that's okay. You're just going to notice that that's what's happening. And in that moment, can you say thank you for sharing, and then just bring your attention back and see if you can relax a little part, you know, like little parts within the body, or not even relaxing, just sitting there in the silence, in the stillness, noticing the distraction, thanking it for being there, letting it go and coming back to noticing your hands or noticing your feet right, or even just throughout the day, Picking an object that's something you see all the time, just one object, and every time you see it, it's a cue for you to, you know, take a breath, or to count to 10. Or you choose one act that you do daily, and you start doing it very, very slowly. So you start to pay attention to you know the for me, I It's when I pull a paper towel off of the towel rack. I use, like I used to do it very quickly, and so now my practice is always to do it very, very slowly, so that I can pay attention and feel the texture of the paper towels. Hear the sound when it rips, understand the motion of my arm, and really trying to slow down an activity that we do really quickly, or that is automatic for us to be to make it more conscious, like mindful eating, yeah, mindful eating, right? I mean,

you could just say, hey, look, you've got a bowl full of nuts. And the reality is, are you thinking about the origin of those? I love that. Yeah. You think about how the farmer picked them, the people that picked them, that got them to the truck, yeah, finally got them to the grocery store that then ended up someone buying them and putting them on your plate. And when you slow down that much, it really is mindful eating, because it's like, Oh, I'm so grateful for all the steps in the process to actually have this food in front of me versus people that just gobble it down. So if you know, if listeners out there right now are struggling with conversations where emotions run high, whether it's with their boss or their spouse or whatever it is, especially in personal relationships, yeah, you know, could be with their brothers or their sisters or their aunt or their uncle or their mother or their father. What would be the single most powerful takeaway from your book?

I think the single most powerful takeaway would be that it's possible to regain control of a moment where you feel you've lost it, right? I mean, it is possible to be in a chaotic interaction or situation and not give over to the chaos, but to be able to be in control of how you interact in that moment. It's a learned practice, and it's something that any of us can learn how to do, and it's just we've never been actually taught how to do it. And so I think understanding that you don't have to have any any background in anything to be able to try it out and see how how helpful it is,

I think you're absolutely right. And I think your soften acronym is is very accurate. And if people would just stop first and understand it, and I'm going to tell them, Go get a copy of this book, because it's all inside of here, and go to her website. The other thing I was going to say is, one of the things that happened to me is I had a son that we didn't have the best relationship. It's awesome now, but during this course that I was taking in a master's degree in spiritual psychology, one of the recommendations was to get a photograph of the person and put them on your desk and then send them loving, kind energy thoughts, yeah, now I do remember us actually statistically measuring our degree of anger and change as a result. This is a long project, because we were statistically measuring, like we do, these questions. Yeah, it was amazing what happened in my own personal attitude toward my son, about loving kindness, thoughts I'm saying talk about emotions running high in a relationship. I mean, it was, it was a tough one, right? But you have to be the person that sets the example. And I think what's most important is if you want to break through in some of these struggles you're having, you have to be the one that will allow it to happen once you have the awareness, because sometimes the other people don't have any awareness of it. So give yourself loving kindness, give the other person loving kindness, and move through that emotion, as you said, Go into it right to make it change. So if there's one thing in wrapping up here, you hope the readers will carry with them after reading the thought the pause principle, what would it be?

It would really be that

in any moment, you have the opportunity to soften and show up in a way that you respect really right to be able to show up in a kind, honest and helpful way. You have the opportunity to do that in any interaction that you have.

I think you and I are saying the same thing. I'm saying you have to be the one that softens. Don't expect the other person.

We have to soften first and then the other person softens. Because it takes, it takes one person to change the conversation, right? So yeah,

and I always remember, I'm trying to think of his name, but he's wrote the book, men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. And he used to say, Would you rather be right, or would you rather be in love? And I remember that because when I was going through a challenge my relationship, I remember both of us were trying to be right, yeah, right. And, and when you get to that spot, talk about emotions running high. They run really high because everybody you know you're wrong. No, it's right. I did it. Right. I did whatever. And so when you go into it and you allow yourself the loving kindness you find, you can move through it, either that or you're going to separate, right? You know, it's it, and it's the same thing with coworkers, yeah, because co workers get into this spot of, I'm right, you're wrong. No, this is the way it's going to go, and you build up resistance to that. So I want to say thank you for writing a great book. Ladies and gentlemen, listening, we're going to have Cynthia back on the show to speak about her other it's four books, right? Four other books, yeah, or three other books. This one is the first three other books that she wrote on one of them is how to communicate like a Buddhist. They're all kind of in the Buddhist series, yeah. And I'm going to put links to my listeners to be able to go check those books out at Amazon as well. We'll put a link for this, and if you would repeat the website you want people to go to, so that I because I have the one up for the actual certification training. So that was my bad. That's okay.

So I, I'm actually going to say going to Cynthia kane.com is the best. Okay, I have two I have Cynthia kane.com and I have Kane communicate.com

So, okay,

Cynthia Kane, that's easy. C, y, N, T, H, I, a, k, a, n, e.com, that's where you'll get her. Namaste to you. Thank you for being on inside personal growth. Have a blessed rest of your afternoon.