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Welcome to Inside Personal Growth Podcast Deep dive with us as we unlock the secrets to personal development, empowering you to thrive. Here, growth isn't just a goal, it's a journey. Tune in, transform and take your life to the next level by listening to just one of our podcasts.

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Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voice and the host of Inside Personal Growth. All my listeners, Cynthia, know me. They don't know you. Cynthia is joining us from. You're in Oakland or Berkeley or Berkeley, California.

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Berkeley. So for all of you who are in the Bay Area listening to this podcast, and for all those around the world that are listening to this podcast, we are going to be speaking about her new book which came out in March, Dancing on A Memoir of an Over Performer.

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And the website for her that all of you are going to want to go to is Cynthia and the last name is O O R E writes W R I t e s.com cynthiamore writes.com that's where you can reach her and learn more about this book and also learn more about what she's doing.

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So, thanks for being on. You know, you're really quite a fascinating woman and this, your life story reads this very captivating kind of novel. You also were an award winning playwright, performer, mental health counselor, author, whose journey spans kind of this creative stage in the, in the Bay Area, and trying to go what I call the scenes in the healing rooms from clinical psychology.

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For over 20 years, you've written and directed in the Bay Area, including work with the renowned Blake Street Hawkeyes performance group, where she had the privilege of working alongside a young Whoopi Goldberg. But Cynthia's story is one of remarkable transformation.

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She left the theater world, behind to earn a master's degree in clinical psychology and has spent 23 years as a mental health counselor specializing in the profound connection between spirituality and trauma. This book, Dancing on A Memoir of an Overperformant.

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As I said, released in March, it's kind of an extraordinary journey from abandonment to authenticity. It's a story of a woman's mid cap race to find fame and enlightenment, whichever came first, starting with being sent to a Swiss finishing school by her narcissistic mother and leapfrogging through these kind of communing, this high octane performance group.

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Cynthia, again, welcome to the show. The book is wonderful. It's a great way to, to bridge both spiritual, emotional and our kind of our transformation in life. And you're a Great story of that. As we all take these journeys.

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Maybe not the same as yours, but a, way for people to relate. So the title of this. And I always wonder why people write books and when. Let's start there. You always have a choice.

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Something happens in life at a certain age, or when, or you want to express it, or you want to get the message out to the world. Why'd you write this book and why now? Well, I started writing this book, actually, after I made the great pivot from being in the theater to becoming a, therapist.

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And what I was needing to do by writing the book was to integrate these two wildly divergent parts of myself. I started out as you Describ. The first 25 years of my life. The first 35 years of my life actually being in the theater, being performative, being extroverted, being looking for external validation, being externally motivated, if you will.

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And, when I made the pivot and went back to school to get my degree as a clinical psychotherapist, I transitioned into a very internal state, a contemplative state, a quieter, more intuitive.

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And I wrote the book to try to figure out who. Who am I? Who are these two parts? Do they actually belong together? Do they work together? Do they inform each other? And turns out they did. They do. And your memoir is a good, depiction of that.

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How these two work. Now, dancing on coals is pretty evocative, right? It's like, okay, Tony Robbins, let's walk across the coals. Many people know that. Can you tell us what this image means to you and how it kind of captures your journey as this over performer?

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Because I think if people are in a personal growth thing and they say, hey, mind over matter, I can actually walk across these coals. Like, that's what Tony always says. You can, overcome the pain, and not get burnt in the process.

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And. And I know you're somebody that believes that. So how does this capture your journey kind of as an over performer? Well, dancing on Coals actually, for me, came from a Buddhist, poet.

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Ann Waldman is a Buddhist poet, and she has a poem called Sleeping with the Hungry Ghost. So the hungry ghost is a notion in Buddhism that really captured my imagination. It's the idea that part of all of us that is craving, wanting, longing for something that we can't have, longing for something external, whether it be belonging or validation or affirmation or love.

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And, it's such a potent image, this hungry ghost. It's hungry and it can't be fed. That's one of the key elements in Buddhism. And so the Ann Waldman poem is sexy ghost, a performer, a demon, a gadfly.

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To never have enough, be enough, get enough dancing on coals. And so it's about directly, it's about the enoughness. I mean I think we live in a world of over performers. You see people excel, I always wonder what they sacrifice in the process.

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Family, divorces, kids that are challenges, all these, these kind of things because they wanted to excel at a career, they wanted to have more money, they wanted to have a bigger house, they wanted to have whatever it was. So these external things were hugely attractive.

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But the internal experience was literally missing, because of that. So when you were sent to this finishing school in Switzerland at age 11, how did this experience of being finished, shape your understand of what it meant to be a woman and an artist?

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Because I can imagine in Switzerland, very strict. It's probably wore uniforms. Tell me a little bit about it. Well, finished. Do I look finished? I don't know. Does anyone look finished? I don't feel particularly finished.

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But it's a crazy notion, isn't it, that you're going to finish someone like you like polishing them or sanding them. I would say it was more of an experience of abandonment. I was very young and I was actually four years younger than the youngest girl at the school.

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So I was really out of my element. And my sense of it was what have I done wrong to have been sent away, by my parents at this point? And so I was longing to find anything that I could do or become to make myself more acceptable so they would take me home again.

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All I wanted was to be taken home again. And ironically that's probably what happened. But it happened more metaphorically than literally. I didn't get literally taken home, but I did find home. And there was a pivotal moment when I tried to get my mother to take me home again and again.

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And I got that she wasn't going to. And in that moment that I got that, something snapped in me. And it was almost as though, okay, you're barking up the wrong tree. This is not going to give you what you need.

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Let's look elsewhere. And so it was a kind of an awakening moment where I stopped craving my mother's love and started looking for something else. I didn't know what it was, but it was liberating.

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What was your relationship like with your Mother? I mean, for somebody to send him to finishing school? You talk about it I think the listeners would probably like to know that because it's not that people don't send their children away to school, but you had an interesting relationship with her.

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I was the fifth, child. And by the time I came along she was neck deep in a divorce, trying to get away from my father. She married another man. And so I was sort of an afterthought by that point.

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And when she sent me away, she just was done being a mother. She didn't want to deal with that anymore. And she was a fascinating woman. If you read the book, I'm sure you noticed there's some pretty intense scenes with her where she was a highly sexualized woman, she was a highly intelligent woman, she was capable of so much more.

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But she was an unhappy woman. And so she just wasn't able to be a mother. And I finally understand that now and I'm able to forgive that. But at age 11, to be taken to another country and put into, to a school that you don't really belong in, it was a challenge.

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It was a challenge and I had to find a way. I think actually I believe that trauma often sets us up for spiritual opening as children. Yeah, well, with your Buddhist belief that you have, obviously you've come a long way and you certainly understand that.

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I mean you're the. The poem that you just cited was important, you know. And in your theater and performing years, you spent years, as you said, literally throwing yourself against the wall in experiential theater, with this Blake Street Hawkeyes.

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What was it like being, quote, one of the guys in that intensely physical male dominated world? Because that's another experience that defined you. I think a lot of women have experienced this and will recognize this.

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The way in our lives where we feel dissatisfied by the feminine or abandoned by the mother, or not supported by the feminine principle in our lives. And so we go to the masculine, we go to find belonging. And it looks like power, looks like it's masculine.

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Especially in my generation, we're Talking about the 60s and the 70s, the 80s, and a lot of women went into the corporate world or went into careers that were male dominated. And in order to do that we had to fit in.

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It wasn't a question of being welcomed for our own skills and capacities. It was more of a question of can you do what we do? Are you up to, can you keep up? Can you compete? And I was all for it because for me that gave me a sense of validation that I could compete, that I Could keep up.

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But as you mentioned earlier, the cost to that is prohibitive. You're giving up your sense of self. You're giving up your own internal gifts. There's a quote in the book where I said I had a feeling something was missing, and I had a feeling it was me.

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Yeah. Yeah. So what's interesting is that you, you. There was a powerful scene you talk about in the book where this director tells you that it was shit. And after exhausting 40 minute aerobic routine, how did moments like this kind of fuel your drive to prove yourself worthy of this masculine approval?

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I mean, you know, we were just talking about the masculine energy, the feminine energy. So what. How did that. How did that particular event significantly stick out one where you actually wanted to write about it in a book too? You know, I have two responses.

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The response I had at the time was, one that I think many abused women have, where it was, a response of wanting to do better, wanting to please, wanting to finally get his approval, which I did.

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But my response as I was writing the book as an older, wiser person was, why did you give him so much power? How did you let him diminish you to that degree? Because it was abusive. There were quite a few abusive theater directors in those eras, and I encountered a few of them who would just get you up on stage and rip you to shreds in order to, you know, I mean, ostensibly it was to.

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To dissolve your ego so you'd be a better performer. But I remember the. I remember the days of est. I actually, time in est. And. And then that's what basically what they did. Right. So, try and break down that ego.

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And I'm sure it worked to a degree, because it does. It does. I wouldn't say it's the best technique to do that, but it does. Right, look. In your transformation, you describe a pivotal moment when you fired your mother.

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You say at age 11. We were just talking about that. What did it mean to make that choice? And how did it set you on the path of overperforming for love and acceptance because you weren't getting the love from mom. So you literally took a different path.

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You wanted to find something you said, and you knew it couldn't be mother, cause she wasn't really having you back. So what happened to you? What did you do? Well, I did two things again, actually.

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One of the things I did was I shut down, which was a trauma response, which I needed to do a lot of healing on because I closed my heart and said, I'm going to stop looking for love from my mother, from humans, from family.

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And so that was a form of shutdown. But at the same time, there was a voice in me that said, look elsewhere. Look elsewhere for what you need. And that voice in the book, I call it the voice of a playground monitor, it was actually a wise voice.

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And it told me to keep looking for satisfaction somewhere else, not my mother. And Unfortunately, I spent 20 years looking for it from audiences and critics and directors. So that wasn't the right place to look either. But the voice kept guiding me until I finally was directed to meditation, Buddhist practice, my own healing process.

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And then I started to realize that the voice was leading me internally rather than externally and finally to peace. Well, it required that you take a path to find your own spiritual being and finding and guiding into Buddhism, or at least the practices or the mindsets around that.

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The meditation, the mindfulness is required to bring you that peace, that calm, that tranquility that isn't occurring. And again, it's about redirecting that energy. You certainly, even at that age, had this energy.

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And you need to find a way to, to move it someplace else, right? To move it someplace. So the transition from acclaimed performer to therapist seems like a, complete reinvention to anyone reading the book.

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What drove you to leave the theater world, and how did that feel like another kind of performance initially, when you had to leave? Well, I think something broke. It was looking for approval, looking for validation, recognizing at a certain point, there was a moment where I said, I'm not getting this from the theater.

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This is never going to come from the theater. It was a parallel moment to, I'm never going to get this from my mother. And so what I think we all, many of us need to do in those moments is drop into the unknown where you don't know what's next, where you surrender to a kind of despair that says, I don't know where.

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I don't know where it's going to lead me. And you open up, and you do a lot of praying, you do a lot of meditating. And ultimately, if you really surrender to that unknown, I do believe we're guided to the next, to the chapter that we actually are called to inhabit.

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And so I was called to go back to school and study psychology. And it resonated with my whole being. It was internal, it was nuanced, it was intuitive. It was an art form. Translate a lot of the art form of theater into being a therapist.

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Actually, and utilize a lot of those skills. So I had to do a descent into the dark night of the soul. I had to go into the unknown, and then I had to follow the guidance until I found the next chapter. It was interesting.

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We're going to skip forward a little bit in this memoir, but you write about marriage and motherhood.

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You said David represents this beautiful contrast to your driven nature. He described as somebody whose rooms are empty, like an enlightened being. How did finding that stability change your relationship to your striving?

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Most people who've grown up with trauma understand that we become hyper attuned, hypervigilant to our environment. We are really sensitized to other people's moods and expressions of energy, especially if you grow up in an alcoholic or a dysfunctional family, like I did.

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And so when you're hypervigilant and hyper attuned, your system is working overtime. And when I met David, my husband and I recognized a calmness in his nervous system that was absolutely soothing to my nervous system.

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And it was essential, it was magnetic. I was called to join with that. It represented something that I could have as well, that I didn't know about, that I hadn't experienced. And so he's taught me over the years.

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We've been married 43 years, and he's taught me. Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. Most people, I've been married 47. Oh, great. You understand. Congratulations, Hall. It's called compromise. It is flexibility.

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Yeah. Compromise. So you found this kind of vessel You could be safe with. And feel loved with. Is that right? Yes. Yeah. And that's probably a good way to look at it because, you know, when you take a sailboat out as a vessel and you take this long journey through life, being with a vessel or on a vessel that brings you comfort is a great, metaphor here.

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Now you write honestly about feeling like an imposter as a mother. Now, I could imagine you did because of your mother. How did becoming a parent challenge your identity as someone who needed to excel at everything? And when did you give that up so that you could be a mother?

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Or have you ever met? That's the question. Still working on that one. Or are your children still, dealing with that? I think we all laugh about it now, and I have great kids, but it's true.

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When you don't have a role model and you don't have someone that tells you, you know, you leave home at 11, think of all the information you're not getting. You're not being taught how to cook. You're not being taught how to care for your clothing or do your laundry.

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You're not being taught how to raise a child. You're not being taught how to give emotional support. You're not being taught how to be a wise adult when you're needed. And all of those things were blank spaces for me.

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I had to make it up. As I was going along, I didn't know how to make cookies. Every time my daughter and I tried to make cookies, we burned them. Which is a metaphor for my experience as a mother. I bet you're good at making cookies now though.

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No, still not. No, still not. Okay, well, I guess turn the oven down. I just gave up on cooking. Well, that's good. You always have Uber eats. You can always call them. So look, your work as a therapist has become another mirror for your own growth, obviously.

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And anybody who goes into psychology. I have a master's degree in spiritual psychology. It is a, look inward, right? We're all growing spiritually along this path. In our class we used to say, are you on the goal line or the learning line?

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Well, you're certainly somebody who's on the learning line. So can you talk about how your clients have become teachers? On the learning line, showing you the work you needed to do on yourself? You know, Carl Jung gave me that piece of information he wrote somewhere, I don't remember where, but he said if you're, patients, he would call them.

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Your analysis, he would call them, are not reflecting the work that you need to do, then you're not engaging properly. And so, that has been a North Star for me my whole career as a psychotherapist, which is that what are my parents?

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What are my. There's a Freudian slip. There you go. What are my patients teaching me? What are my clients teaching me? What are they reflecting that I need to work on? And it's so powerful when you look at their issues as a mirror.

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So someone walks in and they have, insecurity as a parent or as a mother, and you go, okay, boom. That's exactly what I need to work on. And you're working right along with them and so you're learning together. It's not a matter of top down.

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I know more than you do. I have the answers. It's like I, we're, in a, crucible, finding the answers together, right? And you both grow and you both change. And it keeps it so interesting. Kind of like a symbiotic relationship.

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Right. It is alchemical. Yeah. Chemical. Alchemical is a good way to put it. The fire for both of you comes together to create a larger flame. Exactly. And you don't get burnt in the process. You got transformed. That's right, that's right.

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Now there's a beautiful moment where you realize it was never about your mother. What was that breakthrough like? And how long did it take, for you to truly believe it? I mean, that it wasn't a made up story?

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I say to my listeners, they've heard this a million times. We go through life making up stories and begin to believe the stories we made up and then we begin to live those stories out. Right. And that was early on. I was looking back. I just wrote her Byron, Katie.

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You know, is it true? Is it really true? And I think that's what you really have to do here. When does this really become unknowing? Right. It's not about your mother. I mean, we can all learn that one. Right?

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Right. You begin with the wound. It's all about my mother. I need my mother. I need my MOT to bring me home. That's the original story. And then it becomes, oh, I need the critics or I need the acclaim or I need the fame or I need enlightenment or I need to be a good Buddhist.

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And you keep translating that story into more evolved versions of the same story. Right. And then at a certain point, what happened for me was it's not about any of that external.

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It's about this longing within me, this hungry ghost within me that is never satisfied. And can I simply be with that longing? Can I simply experience that, the heart of longing without needing to cram something into the space or fill the hunger or feed the ghost.

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And once you can be with that longing without trying to change or fix it, be with what is. That's the moment where it all falls away. That is a place where I think a lot of. Well, many people don't ever long for it because they know they don't ever make the transformation to that space.

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But you wrote about a scene in the Italian church where the saints tell you there is no point. I mean, this is where you arrive. Right. Is profound. How'd that moment of surrender, the search for meaning, paradoxically give you life meaning?

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You just basically said it a second ago. But I think it doesn't matter if it's from Catholicism or Judaism or Buddhism or Muslim. You know, when you look at the teachings of all of these spiritual.

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I'm Going to just call them foundations. Because my. My theory is, is that, that. That in our world religions, religion has done more to divide than unite. Spirituality has done more to unite than divide.

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Because that's our own single path. That's not somebody forcing something down our throat, that we have to believe a certain way. So tell us about this when you kind of gave it up. Well, what you just said actually fits into it beautifully.

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Because religion says God is out there. Right? The answer is out there. The answer is in the church or on the altar or in the priest, or we'll come to you through prayer. And spirituality says it's in us. And so what that moment was. I was in an Italian church, and I was succumbing to a moment of despair.

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And I had, as I said earlier, gone through all these permutations of what the answer was. Not my mother, not acclaim or fame. And then finally, it was, just this hopelessness of. I had become a writer and I had written several books, and I was not getting any bites on these.

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And it was this moment of despair. What's the point of writing books? What's the point of doing all this work? What's the point of being an artist if you're not getting received, if you're not getting published? What is the meaning?

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And in the church, the moment that came to me, I had, these plaster saints all lined up around me, and they whispered into my ear, there is no point. There is no meaning. There is no external.

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God is not outside you. There is nothing to work for. There is nothing to work towards. It's right here, right now. This moment is all there is. And it was an absolute thunderclap where my insides matched my outsides.

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They stopped being separate. And I felt the connection. And as you read in the book, I went back and forth with that connection several times. You get it, you lose it. You get it, you lose it. But that was a powerful moment of there's nothing but this moment.

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Yeah, you know, we talked about it a second ago. It's kind of your ego, right? It's looking for something. And look, we're always going to have it. It's always going to be there. It's kind of hard to, like, get rid of it. But I remember this story. Thomas Moore was on here not that long ago.

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A gentleman who used to be a priest, who's written some amazing books, Matthew Fox was just on here a little bit ago. So I've had all this double dose of great spirituality here recently. But, Thomas Moore, wrote about an incident where he went to Powell's Books to do a book signing.

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And he showed up. And you're gonna love this analogy. And he got to the bookstore and there was no one there. There was no one there. No one. Right. And this book manager, store manager came in and said, well, I think we probably cancel the evening.

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And he said, I flew here all the way from XYZ to come to do this book signing. He said, well, I'm sorry, but no one showed up. So as he's walking the streets of Portland back to his hotel room, he starts to reflect on emptiness, and the significance of emptiness.

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And as you said in this case, he reflected to me that it was just this epiphany of how much we can learn from being empty. Okay. And in your case, there, it's, there's no point.

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Your learning is from that emptiness because we're always trying to fill the void. We don't have to spend the time filling the void. We need to spend more time in the emptiness. Right. So great analogy at this point.

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Right. The other story was Jan Phillips. You know, she was a nun and written many books. A good friend was on recently about her being a nun in the church. And she was gay and she wasn't having an affair with another nun.

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So they kicked her out. And they kicked her out from being a, nun in the church. And this was devastating. But she came to this realization that God isn't somewhere else. It's here, it's with me. Right.

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So this major awakening out of Catholicism into alternative forms of spirituality and now teaching it, is amazing. And one of her stories, Cynthia, was she went into a class and all These young girls, 18 year old, are, getting ready to become nuns and they're studying.

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And the one priest says, well, you guys see all those books up there? All those books on those shelves? Yes. And they've been so conditioned to want to read those books. Right? Because that's where they were going to get their knowledge. He said, we're not going to open one of those books in this class.

[33:49.4]
Not any of those books in this class. Because those books don't mean anything. What means something is what's right here. And that's what you're going to learn in this class. But all these young 18 year old girls had been so conditioned, they were like, oh my God, what are we going to do?

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This is crazy. We're supposed to be able to have some book that we need to learn something from. And he Says you're going to learn from one another. I thought that was a great, it was a great story now. Beautiful it is. Now you describe Monas of enlightenment that come and go just like you said on vision quests some of us have done, some of them had on meditation retreats, whatever it might be, on meditations on the freedom.

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What have you learned about holding on to these glimpses of peace that you have? And what would you advise listeners that are still here with us learning, about you know, your memoir, your over performer memoir.

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Don't hold on, don't try to hold on to the moments of peace because they come and they're beautiful and everything falls into place and then they go. And for some people they don't. Byron, Katie or Eckhart Tolle have those moments of awakening and boom, they don't revert.

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But for most of us they come and go and they begin to gradually get more and more foundational and so they become part of your life. But the holding on or the grasping or the trying to get back to those moments is just another thought pattern.

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So you know, be where you are, love where you are. If you're struggling, love the struggle. If you're enlightened, love the enlightenment. That's the advice that I have. Well look, as we wrap up this interview and you know, you've kind of illuminated your journey here as this over performer and how you were conditioned to be that over performing and what you were looking for in your life and then finding a person who was a vessel and someone that you could have children with and then raising those children as the mother who was somewhat an over performer and you're not certain it's still there.

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If you look back and you speak to the 11 year old girl dancing on the garage roof dreaming of being this prima ballerina, what would you tell her about the journey ahead? I mean obviously you and I are close in age so we have all these reflection cycles that occur now and it's unfortunate sometimes I think there was that movie where the guy was born old and then reversed and became young.

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And I think that I wish that some of the things that I knew now, I knew back then. I would say that to that girl, she was dancing on the garage roof and she was in joy. And I would say that's your center, that is your center, that is your soul.

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This is your spirit, this is your essence. Don't get caught up in trying to get recognized for this or get applause for this or get seen for this, but feel it on the inside. Because this feeling on the inside that you have, right now, this is the place it's gonna take you 60 years to get back to.

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Well, you know, the one thing that I would say about your spiritual journey as a result of all this has just been, very, very enlightening people that to read the book, to really take the journey with you, through your memoir in the Walking on calls.

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And again, for my listeners who, are at this point, you're going to be able to put buy the book through Amazon, which we'll have a link below, in this. But go to Cynthia Moore, O O R E writes dot com.

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There you can learn more about the book. You can see some of the reviews. You, can look at some of the articles and conversations, that Cynthia has had. You can learn more about her other book called Spencer's Pond, which was a novel that was a, release prior to this book.

[38:25.4]
But it's been an honor having you on the show, spending some time with our guest, sharing your story and sharing the lessons, more importantly, that you learned, that are relatable to almost anybody out there. Namaste to you.

[38:41.3]
Thank you so much for being here with me today. Namaste, Greg. It's been a real pleasure talking to you. Thank you for listening to this podcast on Inside Personal Growth. We appreciate your support. And for more information about new podcasts, please go to inside personal growth.com or any of your favorite channels to listen to our podcast.

[39:03.1]
Thanks again and have a wonderful day.