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Welcome to Inside Personal Growth podcast Deep dive with us as we unlock the secrets to personal development, empowering you to thrive. Here. Growth isn't just a goal, it's a journey. Tune in, transform, and take your life to the next level by listening to just one of our podcasts.

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Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voice and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And as you can see, with the blue sea and the layoff journey, right over his head is Steve Jappe, joining us from Altadena, California, not that far from us here in Encinitas.

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Good day to you, Steve. How you doing? I'm doing great, thanks, Greg. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Well, it's good to have you on the show and for all of you. You can see his book, but we're going to kind of have it fly across the screen on our video when we do this anyway. But, is Steve Jaffe and I want to let the listeners know a tad bit about you, Steve.

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And, by the way, you can, go to his website to learn more. We were just talking about that and it's just the stevejaffe.com Put the in front of it and it's T H E S t e v e j-a f-f e.com There you can, go and get a free chapter of this book.

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You can also, pick up on his blog, you can look at his marketing and consulting services and get a media kit. About Steve. But. So he's a seasoned advertising marketing executive turned author who brings deeply personal perspective to career transitions.

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In his book the Layoff Journey from dismissal to navigating the stages of grief after a job loss, transform what many see as devastating setback into an opportunity for growth and renewal. And we hope for those that are listening that this happens to you as well.

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That's Steve's true message here, is that sometimes these layoffs can be an opportunity for growth and renewal. On the other side, he draws from 25 year career in advertising, including work on the Ionic, what Happens in Las Vegas Stays in Las Vegas campaign, and his own experience navigating job loss.

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Steve guides readers through the seven stages of grief with practical strategies and actionable insights. He's a journalism graduate from my alma mater as well, San Diego State University. And he's writing or returned to his writing roots.

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He offers a unique blend of empathy, encouragement, empowerment for anyone facing career upheaval. Well, Steve, that kind of says it all. Does it? I appreciate the introduction. Yeah, you cover a lot there Well, I tried to cover as much as I could in little time.

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But look, you've been through this, many, many times. You've been laid off four times in 22 years. Yeah. And I think when people work inside of a business and have been there a while, it almost seems like betrayal to a certain degree.

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Right. Take us back to the first layoff in 2001. What was going through your mind when you were called into that conference room? And as people have seen on the movie the Office, I think it is, or whatever, the other one, you're fired.

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Yeah, right. Or Donald Trump. You're fair. Yeah. You know. Well, I appreciate the question. It's a good place to start. It's where I open up the book as well. It was, spring of 2001, and I was living in San Francisco, working in the advertising, industry.

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I had just gotten married, and I was working on the biggest account at the agency. We were really successful. Everything was going great. Couldn't have been better. And, then all of a sudden, it was the first dot com bubble that burst.

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And, our client, went through some bankruptcy. And, there went the budget and all of the staffing along with it. So one day, unexpectedly, I was called into a conference room. And, I look across the table, there's, agency, leadership and hr.

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And in very short order, they let me know that, my services are no longer needed. And I was, I was in complete and utter shock. I, I, I hadn't experienced anything like that before. I was pretty young in my career, and, I had thought that, you know, I had bought into this myth of meritocracy, which is if you're smart enough and you work hard enough, you'll be successful.

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And, I was, I was definitely, achieving. I was a high achiever. And rather than being met with, you know, a promotion, a raise, whatever, instead I was being handed a box to pack up my desk in the next five minutes.

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And, that experience took a long time to process. Took me, quite a while to, What I now have come to learn are the stages of grief that you experience after a layoff and, kind of come out the other side of it.

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And one of the things you say is you mentioned that it took you years to process your first layoff in 2001. And again, let's mention you've been through four at this point, but only months for your most recent one in 2023.

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Right. So what changed in your approach to handling these experiences. And obviously now, you know, look, you're an author. You're talking to people about this. So you not only shifted all of these experiences, but you kind of reinvented yourself, you know, to a certain degree.

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You're offering your media services and your marketing consulting services. You know, you became, what I'm going to call self employed. Well, here's what the difference was. So fast forward now.

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It's the summer of 2023, and I'm getting laid off for the fourth time. And I sail right through it. It doesn't really set me back. It's. It's water off a duck's back. And I take a pause to think about what is the reason for this?

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Why is it, not having the same effect on me? And what I begin to understand is that after four times, I've, I've learned what to expect and how to navigate it. And, and, and that's how I identified these stages of grief.

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I understood and, and knew what to expect and had already begun to develop the coping skills and coping mechanisms that I talk about in the book that allowed me to, not have the same effect. And the impetus for the book was, in that last layoff, There was about 20% of the company that was laid off along with me.

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And I wanted to communicate to those other folks, some of them it was their first layoff, some of them it was their second layoff in a calendar year. And I wanted to explain to them, here's what you're going to experience, here's the, the best way to navigate it.

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And, and in a way that you come out the other side, like you said, seeing this as an area of opportunity and, opportunity for renewal. So, what I understood then was, well, there's a lot of other people going through a layoff, not just the 20% that I went through the layoff for.

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And if I were to write a book, I could help not only that 20%, but everyone else that's gone through a layout. So, I decided to sit down and start writing. And this is, it's exceptional. And I think, you know, I was reflecting on a story.

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We have an author that put on an event and nobody showed up. I know this is, would be. There's a good analogy here. And Thomas Moore, the author of a, book. Hold on, we'll edit this out. Thomas More, the author of, I think at this point, I don't know, 20 books, different books, and he's A philosopher and used to be a monk.

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And he went to a book signing, and I'm going to get to the point of this. And nobody showed up. And he reflected on the emptiness from a Buddhist standpoint, what that really meant right now, grief is the loss, someone not showing up because you had an expectation.

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That's the key here. We have an expectation that things are just going to go along hunky dory, and they don't. And when it doesn't meet our expectation, a lot of times we have anger, we're frustrated.

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And you use these grief frameworks to kind of position. So why did you feel the framework was the right lens for understanding job loss? Because there are certain emotions that everybody goes through in this grieving process, which I've had hundreds of authors on here talk about.

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And I would believe that it's the same for this because it's like, oh, well, I have, I went through divorce, grieving process, maybe, basically the love of my life, I was dating, dating process.

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You lose somebody. Right. So explain to us what it is. And in particular that denial stage that you describe, is the grace of denial. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Well, as I was doing some research for the book and I was thinking about what I experienced, I came across Elizabeth Kubler Ross, and she wrote about the stages of grief, as it relates to, patients that were terminally ill.

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She, witnessed, they went through these stages and they processed these stages. And then with further research, those people's loved ones also went through these stages. And in time, they became somewhat universal and ubiquitous for any major life event, any major traumatic life event.

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So the death of a loved one, a divorce, certainly a layoff falls within that category of traumatic life events. So partial collapse even? Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there are also some universal life truths of how we process traumatic things.

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And this roadmap, I think, is a very good fit for, a layoff. And I certainly have felt and, and. And needed to process all of these. You talked about the denial stage. So the denial stages is the very first stage of the 7st.

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And, what I write about in terms of the grace of denial is that you're being flooded with emotions and information as you sit across that conference room table and someone tells you in very short order, thank you, your services are no longer needed.

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So many thoughts and emotions are running through your head in so many ways. We shut down. Right. And that shutting down, that denial is really a healthy psychological defense mechanism for Overwhelming and stressful situations.

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So sometimes our world moves quicker than our minds can process. And the denial allows our brains time to catch up. So for me, when I sit across that conference room table, my heart quickens, my breath shortens, I get somewhat like sweaty, but my brain goes into a really big fog.

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I don't remember really details of what's being said. It all gets real fuzzy and it stays fuzzy for a day or two afterwards. That fuzziness is my brain's, way of giving me time and space to process all of the different things that come with a, layoff.

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The loss of your livelihood, your income, your health insurance. You have to tell people, family, friends, I've lost my job. In some instances that may be your identity. Right, you may have lost your identity. That's a big heavy thing to process.

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So there's grace in the time that your, your, your body and your mind takes to kind of process and accept that. And you have to give yourself the time to, to, to go through that.

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Yeah, you've gone through the layoff. And one thing I know, people have a challenge wrapping their arms around, but in many cases it's given you the freedom that you really would like to have to think through your life.

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Right. But that's a huge thing for people to accept. And then you talk about because a lot of times just get up, go to work, do my job, come home, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. And they don't want to look at really their potential, which is usually much greater than the J O B, that they've been going to.

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So in the pain stage, you discuss how layoffs trigger the same stress response as physical pain. Okay, so releases of cortisol into our system, that's a physical thing that happens when people experience this pain.

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But not oxytocin, which is the high you get when you're hired from, on a job that we're trying to go to. How should people understand what their body's going through during this time of stressors? Because it's a huge stress and I don't think that they give themselves the opportunity.

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And I would say from somebody who's gone through plenty of disappointments in my life, but not all from being laid off because I've been pretty much self employed all my life. But other disappointments, financial stuff, all kinds of things. I found that and I don't know if this worked for you or not, but finding a time to go ride your bike or walk on the beach or run or do anything that got me away from what I was mentally involved in.

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So I had to focus on something else. Really worked to trigger a new response. Did you find that too? Yeah, a hundred percent. And in the book I talk a lot about kind of a whole body approach, a holistic way of, of creating those opportunities for the oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin, to be released that will help balance and fight against the, emotions that you're feeling.

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So, eating a healthy diet, getting plenty of sleep, limiting alcohol intake, getting plenty of exercise, getting out and moving every day, that will release those, those endorphins that will counterbalance that pain that you're feeling.

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I think meditation is a huge thing, taking, you know, deliberate and intentional deep breaths. And people may call that different things. That may be prayer for some person, that may be meditation for someone else. But, those for me are non negotiables.

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And, and those are things that I learned. By the time I had gotten to my fourth layoff that I was already doing, that gave me that baseline to help me kind of sail through it. So, yeah, the, the getting back to the, the pain stage.

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You know, the, the brain doesn't process emotional and physical pain identically, but there is research that shows that the neural pathways, suggest a, an overlap between the two experiences. So the reactions can appear or feel similar.

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Like, you know, in a, let's say a divorce or a breakup with a loved one, that that emotion feels painful. You know, there's a reason why people say like, oh, my heart is breaking. It feels like you have a broken heart.

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Right. And, and that's not dissimilar to losing your job. There's so many things that, are affected. Your, your, your social network, all of those people that you interacted with on a daily basis, your, your daily routine.

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Of course, things like income and health insurance. There's so many different ways that your life is, is going through upheaval, that it can feel very painful. Yeah.

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And there's a lot of things you've got to prepare for after somebody gives you the ax. Right. And you mentioned that in some sectors, like tech, it's not a question of if but when, the layoff will occur.

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And I would say yes or Some kind of movement, upward mobility movement. How should people prepare mentally for this new reality of work? Because we're in a, we've kind of always been in these times, but it seems a little bit more exacerbated now, as a result of this administration's desire to lay off all kinds of people that thought, oh, I had a government job, it was pretty secure.

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Right. You know, I would assume that you probably get a lot of those who want to, or if they have it, they should buy your book. Right, right, right. Well, I think you had mentioned this earlier, about expectations.

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And historically there's been an expectation that, you owe your employer your hard work and your skills and your talents, and they owe you a job. And I think as time has gone on, that exchange isn't, maybe being fulfilled or met in the same way that it used to.

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You know, you used to stay with a company, Maybe it was 25 years, and they gave you a gold watch when you retired, and it was great, you had one job. Nowadays that just doesn't happen. And I think the important thing that people need to understand is that it's very easy to let your job define who you are.

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In so many situations, social situations, you meet somebody, you ask them, oh, what do you do? And what you do becomes who you are. Right. That's a very dangerous proposition. When you find yourself out of a job, the question of what do you do when you are no longer working becomes an identity crisis.

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And one of the things that I suggest is people begin to define themselves not by what they do, but who they are. Right. What do you believe in? What do you stand for? What are your passions? What gets you excited? What gets you out of bed every day?

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That way nobody can take that from you. Right? Nobody can. Can. Can, rob you of that. The way you can, have your job taken away so that if and when you are laid off, you have all of this other meaningful ways of defining yourself.

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Doing that work of understanding what you're passionate about and what you love and maybe what your purpose is will also then help you once you've been laid off to identify if that job path that you were on, that career path, was in alignment with that personal identity, or if this is an opportunity to pivot and align your passion with your purpose and maybe do something else.

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So, I think having a. And, and this may come from kind of the work life balance that often eludes people, but doing something outside of work so that work doesn't become your only and sole purpose is, great way.

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Yeah. Yeah. Have, have something beyond that, a cause that you want to help and give back to other people as well. That's a, It's a really important Factor. And you know, you mentioned in the book, and you said it just a few minutes ago, you critique the myth of mediocrity.

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The idea that hard work alone protects you from layoffs, which we know that's not the case anymore. What do you want people to understand about why layoffs really happen? Because the point is, I was just going to say, as you've said, nobody holds a job hardly for 25 years anymore and just get waits for the gold watch.

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And I think statistically now it's like five times people are hired in or rehired or fired or whatever, move positions. And it would seem to me that in this environment, if you look at it correctly, it should be a confidence builder, not a downer.

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And every time you're released from a position, you're now given an opportunity to find a better position. And I think that's the mindset you're hoping people will take away from this is like, hey, let this be a confidence builder.

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Let this be an opportunity for a stepping stone to move in a new direction like it has done for you. Yeah, yeah. I think one of the things that layoffs do allow you to do is take a pause. Right.

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In that like elusive work life balance, people very rarely have, have the opportunity to pause and evaluate their career path, evaluate the industry that they're in and the trends that are shaping that industry. In a layoff you have a minute to stop and breathe and to kind of reassess.

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You may have started a career path a decade earlier when you were maybe a different person. You have an opportunity now to find alignment, to find a different, source of fulfillment.

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Early in my career, I defined success very differently than I defined success now. Right. So, you are given that opportunity to have a pause and reassess where things are going well.

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You call this the reconstruction stage, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in the myth of meritocracy, one of the things I wanted to touch on was that, how, and why layoffs really happen.

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And it's a really simple equation where it's much easier to cut headcount than it is to increase sales. Right. Employers can cut a headcount on a Friday afternoon and see that in their payroll on Monday morning.

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Right. Direct impact on the bottom line. If they try and increase sales, there might be a six month ramp up and, and who knows how, how successful that sales increase will be in the long term. So it's, it's a simple way of driving revenue back to the bottom line when times are difficult and unfortunately, that's becoming all too common.

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And, and, and it can be something like, you know, I mentioned the dot com bubble in 2001, we had the housing crash and recession. 2008, we had a global pandemic in 2020. There are things outside of any employers control market conditions that can dictate it, it can dictate based on you know, all sorts of economic factors.

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But just, you know this, that if, if someone has a, profit and loss or a balance sheet, there's the human capital value. Right. And as you mentioned, usually the biggest investment most large companies are making is into human capital.

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Right, right. And so to get those sales up, as you just mentioned, might have a Runway or it's not working. And that's the reason they're saying, oh good, we've got a trim. Right. That's what.

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So what you've just said to me is don't take it personally because you weren't responsible for your own layoff in most cases, unless you were just a kiss ass person who gave everybody a rough time.

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Right. But if you were doing your job and all of a sudden you got laid off and you thought you were doing a good job, you got to look at all the other factors. 100%. Yeah, 100%. And that's one of the things I write about. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. And so I'm just reiterating and I think it's really important for people to realize it's like, okay, hey, I was misaligned with the wrong company.

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I need to be with a company that's growing a company that has a future, a company that's selling a company that has a better product, whatever it might be at that point, or help to provide solutions to those other companies sooner so that they don't get there.

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Right. Or see how much input you can have in that. But that isn't there. You emphasize the importance of separating self worth from job loss. I think that's what we're talking about here. What practical steps can someone take when they're feeling like their identity has been stripped away?

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Because that's really the key here. Yeah, yeah. I think that goes back to not defining yourself through your job. You know, your job isn't who you are, that's just what you do. But you know, if I'm in marketing, I'm in advertising and I lose my job, I'm still a marketer, I'm still an advertising Executive, with a wealth of experience.

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I may not have that job at that time, but that doesn't negate all of the years of experience that I have and that I bring to the next job. And that kind of shift in mindset is important in how you think about yourself.

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But it's also important when you're back on the job market and you're positioning yourself during an interview or on a resume. You still have all of that experience and all of those skills. You just don't have that last job. So it's an important thing that people don't erase, what they've done and their successes.

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But you can go down a very slippery slope of

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that identity of self worth with your job and becoming who you are defined by what you do. I think that exercise of self exploration, self discovery, is important, in finding who you are without that job.

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So one of the things that people out there listening probably want to know now or maybe faced with this or have been faced in the past with this, and it's a really important topic is negotiating separation agreements.

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What surprised you most about what actually is negotiable when being laid off? Because a lot of people just walk away and say, well there isn't anything negotiable. I was fired and I, have 30 days to find a new health insurance plan and go do whatever I have to do.

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Right? Yeah, yeah. Well I, I think based on your industry and your experience, you may understand or not that anything in life is negotiable and your separation agreement is, is just one of those.

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So the same way you negotiate your terms of employment, you accept the job. Your separation agreement is also negotiable. And usually the offer that the employer puts on the table is their first offer and it's usually accepted because most people don't understand that you can negotiate a severance agreement.

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It's important if you are in the situation of being laid off, you don't immediately sign what they're handing you. Take a minute. In some instances, refer against your original employment agreement, refer against the employment laws in your state, if needed, consult with an attorney, to make sure everything that they're putting in front of you is not only legal, but in your own, best interest.

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For example, non disclosure agreements, have pretty much been, sidelined in some instances illegal or they're just not, they're non enforceable. But in other instances, you know, it's important to take a pause because you need Time to assess your financial situation.

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Now that you won't have a paycheck or health insurance, and given where you are in your life and what your needs may be, you may need to negotiate different healthcare terms. In your severance agreement, there are all sorts of stories of women who are pregnant who get laid off and may lose their health insurance.

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In the midst of a pregnancy. That is a really good viable reason to go to your employer and negotiate health coverage to continue on through the pregnancy. That was just one example, but, one of many.

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There are plenty of people here on visas that when they get separated, they lose their visa. There may be opportunities for somebody to negotiate, their visa to be carried over until they find a new job. But all of these things you should not be afraid to ask.

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Now the important thing is that you're not asking for all of them, right? You need to identify what is your thing that you need more than anything else. And you're willing to agree to all the other terms, but this one term you're going to stand your ground on, and this is where you're going to stake your claim.

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The employer wants to move on and move forward past this layoff, and will do just about anything to expedite that. So they are incentivized to accept the terms and move on.

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Right? Because they want that money back to their bottom line as soon as possible and they kind of want the whole thing to go away. So you, want to make sure that you are, in, not a combative, argumentative, you want to be civil and you want to move through this process with your former employer in an amicable way that will serve you well when you're negotiating the terms of your severance, if you go in there being really combative and angry, yet another reason to manage that stage of grief in anger.

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So that when you're working with them on your severance, you're not bringing that baggage in the conversation. If you enter that negotiation amicably, you're more likely to then, get what you're asking for. Well, like you said, the. Negotiate the severance pay.

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It's really one of those things that is, kind of negotiable. And I think all of these things are negotiable. Now you had mentioned, in the book that you and your wife were laid off during the dot, com crash together.

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And I think when it comes to growing in relationships, whether it's the friendships at work or your wife Being laid off at the same time. How did kind of going through this experience together affect your relationship and your approach to career decisions?

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I mean usually in a family there's two people working. In these days that we live in today, it's highly unlikely that both people are going to be laid off at the same time. But in your case it happened. It certainly puts a strain on the budget, I guarantee you that and increases the amount of stress in your relationship.

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So how'd you guys kind of work through that? Did you go out and get a cleaning job?

[35:11.3]
Well, you know we, we took a look at the situation. We were both in San Francisco and and it was a bloodbath. Jobs are being lost left and right and there were U hauls on every corner. And we both felt that staying in San Francisco just was not viable.

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And we thought that the economy and the market in LA was a little bit better. So we decided to move. She decided to go back to school and I was actively looking for jobs and it was going pretty well and I felt pretty confident I was going to be able to be re employed in relatively short order.

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Unfortunately if you remember fall of 2001, specifically 9-11-2001 was another one of those catastrophic economic conditions that put everything on hold.

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So all of my prospects dried up and it was, it was a long slog through what became ultimately an 18 month hiatus. And I, I, this is one of the reasons why that layoff was impacted me so much is that I couldn't find another job for 18 months because of the economic conditions around the economic bubble.

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And then nine, 11, and then ultimately on the other side of that experience I landed which was probably a career defining job on what happens in Vegas, Stays in Vegas. And you know one of the things that I write about is I went from watching the super bowl at home, you know, alone on the couch to the very next year attending the Super Bowl.

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And that was kind of that trajectory in a microcosm. You never know when things are going to turn. You never know when opportunity is going to arise. And eventually the hardships of those 18 months was put behind me and I was able to achieve great success.

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So there's always a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Some key is you know, you gotta be able to have the staying power. And I think for most couples it's almost anybody you say well how much do you have sitting in savings.

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Well, are you supposed to have six months to be able to get through something like this? If there's advice I'd give anybody, it would be, how much have you actually put away? Especially if you're working for a big company, you don't know what's going to happen to be able to make it through some challenging times.

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Now, most financial planners will say have at least six months. I would agree with that. I think it's important to have some level of savings that you're comfortable with. And at the time, I guess you and your wife didn't have children either. So it's a little different. But imagine somebody with kids, right?

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You've got a different situation. So just kind of, I wouldn't say plan for it, but plan to have some reserve set away for this. So, you know, we're down to the part of the interview where I think the people that are listening are that I said before.

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If they're currently going through a layoff and they're feeling overwhelmed, what's one piece of advice that you want them to remember from your own personal journey? Because it is called the layoff journey from dismissal to discovery.

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And what would you just speaking right to anybody right now who's feeling this grief, right? That they've either been, they're going to be laid off, they know they're going to be laid off, it's just the final days, or they've been laid off, they've been off out of a job for a month.

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What do you want to tell people? Yeah. They're not alone. That, 40% of all Americans have gone through a layoff at least once. There is no shame and there's no embarrassment in being laid off.

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It happens all the time and it happens to everyone, high performers. So don't take it as a statement on your self worth. It's an opportunity to, find where you go from here.

[39:55.8]
It's not the end of your story. It's just one of the chapters. So, one of the things that helped me a lot, and I hope it helps others, is recognizing that, the layoff is what happens to you.

[40:12.2]
What you do next is, is entirely up to you, how you react and how you handle this and how you come out the other side is entirely in your control. So, use this as an opportunity.

[40:30.0]
The person that you are before a layoff will not be the person that you emerge after a layoff. This is a crucible that will, transform weaknesses and bring out new strengths that you didn't know you had.

[40:48.5]
So, I would never tell anybody. A layoff is an opportunity or a blessing in disguise. It's not. Layoffs suck. And, and I, I wouldn't wish them on anybody. But they do allow for a transformation that at the end of that journey, you may be in a better position, you may be in a, a different career path, one that maybe is in a industry that isn't contracting, that isn't experiencing layoffs, one that may be in better alignment with your life purpose and your passion and your joy.

[41:25.4]
So, it's, it's a difficult experience, but you will get through it. Or become a free agent. Like you. Exactly. You can do that as well. And then you're responsible for what happens to you, not somebody else.

[41:41.2]
So, look, they can go to your website, thestevejaffe.com forward/, free, free hyphen chapter. There you can enter your name and your email address and you'll get a free chapter from the book. You can also reach out to Steve. So if you've got interest in hiring him to speak at your company or to speak anywhere, or a media request, there's a media page there as well to speak about layoffs.

[42:10.4]
But it's steve@thestevejaffe.com. you can find him on LinkedIn@LinkedIn.com InSteve or Jaffe. Steve, J A F F E S T E V E. There you can learn more about Steve as well.

[42:27.5]
Steve, it's been an honor having you on Inside Personal Growth to talk about, your book, the Layoff Journey from Dismissal to Discovery. I think it's been very insightful, especially the stages of grief that people go through and the way for them to, I don't want to call, relook at that grief, so that they can kind of rise from their own ashes, so to say, and embrace it in a completely different way.

[42:57.6]
It's been an honor having you on. I appreciate you. I appreciate what you're writing about and how you're helping people do this. I could see where you could be a good coach, for people that are going through this process. Thanks so much, Greg. I appreciate it. I appreciate having me on and appreciate your audience.

[43:15.4]
I hope people, are able to find some comfort in the book. They will indeed. They just have to buy it first. So go out to the Amazon link that we'll put in there and, purchase, Steve's book.

[43:30.7]
Thanks so much, Steve. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this. Podcast on Inside Personal Growth. We appreciate your support. And for more information about new podcasts, please go to inside personal growth.com or any of your favorite channels to listen to our podcast.

[43:48.2]
Thanks again and have a wonderful day.