[00:00.5]
Welcome to Inside Personal Growth podcast Deep dive with us as we unlock the secrets to personal development, empowering you to thrive. Here, growth isn't just a goal, it's a journey. Tune in, transform and take your life to the next level by listening to just one of our podcasts.

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Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And on the other side of the screen there is Noel Massie. And Noel is joining us from Chicago, Illinois where he was telling me it's quite humid and warm.

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Good, day to you, Noel. How you doing? Hey Greg, thanks. I'm doing fantastic and I'm pleased to be on your podcast. Dan and I look forward to our, our conversation over the next 45 minutes or so. Yeah. And also we're going to have a luncheon of an Irvine. So this is the book Congrats, you've been promoted by Noel Massey.

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The subtitle is an essential guide for helping new leaders and their teams succeed. So I'm going to put a tell everybody, go out and get this book. But Noel, I'm going to let the people know a little bit about you because this history is very, very impressive.

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Former vice president of UPS US Operations and as we said, he is the author of this brand new book congrats, you've been promoted from 2016-19. He was there, he guided package delivery and it always amazes me how UPS can always usually get it right.

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And logistics services across the United States, for the world's largest shipping companies. His extensive corporate leadership experience combined with the degrees in electrical engineering from San Jose State and business management from LaSalle University provides him with unique insights into what it really takes like to be in the leadership roles.

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Been featured in publications like the Los Angeles Times, the New York, the Orange County Register, Harvard Business Review, and Noel has been recognized throughout his career for his commitment to community service and has served on numerous boards, throughout Los Angeles and all over the place.

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And today, his hard earned wisdom is navigating the challenges and opportunities come with promotion and leadership responsibility. Well, for all my listeners go to nolmassey.com that's N O L E A S S I E dot com and there you'll learn more.

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We're also going to talk about a master class that he has which is available for you. But first let's get into this dive into the book. You speak about your early days.

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You started McDonald's as a crew, chef at 16 and ended up as VP of US delivery for UPS, overseeing 200,000 people. So based on that journey.

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Okay, what's the biggest myth about climbing the corporate ladder, that you'd really like to bust? Well, you know, first and foremost, thanks for that introduction. I'm really, humbled by it. But the one thing I do want to say, before we go, and I know your listeners can see on the screen, the spelling of my name.

[03:31.8]
It's N O E L. I think he said O L E. Sorry if I mess that up. I will correct that in our, our video as well too. It's N O E L E L A S S I E.

[03:48.2]
There you go. There we go. So anyway, to answer your question, the biggest myth I want to bust immediately for the listeners is that climbing the corporate ladder is not within the control of the individual per se.

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What the individual gets to control is how good they are at, what they're tasked by the organization to do. You know, I heard a great quote early in my career that really set the stage for me personally. And the quote was from the founder of ups, James E.

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Quake, Casey. We had a habit in our organization of, reviewing literature that he wrote and left for the partners of the organization because UPS was a partnership for the first 92 years of its existence. It was not publicly traded, it was a privately held company.

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So to get stock in the company you needed to be a manager or above in the organization. So that being said, obviously a lot of his ideology around leadership permeated the organization. And so early in my career I heard a quote, that was given to me by a manager which had tremendous impact on the way I saw what you just asked is that others will judge you by what they think of your work, not what you think of it.

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And it's just a fundamental truth. Others are going to judge you by what they think of your professionalism, your effectiveness, your commitment, not what you think of it. And too often young leaders, will get into an organization and believe that their opinion of their work is the opinion that is most central to their success.

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And it's just not true. Not even their immediate managers, the people that are always going to be the ones that put the most inertia behind a career, right, Are going to be the ones you work with or work under you. When they're your biggest cheerleaders, your peers and the people under you, your boss can't help but notice.

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Well then that breaks the myth, and I love that because you made it really crystal clear. It's not what you think about your work, it's what other people think about how you're performing. Correct. Because no doubt about it. Yeah. But I think as human beings on this planet, we kind of go through life thinking that what we're doing is right if we're not getting feedback right.

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And so the only thing that helps us make a course correction is leadership, giving us some positive feedback. Hey Noel, you really might want to consider doing it this way versus the way you're doing it right. What would you say to upper management people about engaging and being.

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Having the voices of those people be heard so they can give the proper guidance? Well, I think there's a couple of dimensions to that question you just asked. But you know, when I wrote this book, it's really for a few different groups.

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Not just someone who's gonna, who has been promoted, but it's someone who's aspiring to be promoted. It's the owner of a business who's promoted someone. The book is intended to create congruence. And congruence is important to establish between individuals, particularly between a newly promoted supervisor and the person that they report to.

[07:22.9]
It's important they have congruence on what good looks like. It's important they have congruence on the terms and conditions they'll operate under, how feedback will be delivered, when, it'll be delivered. Because everyone needs a coach. Even Michael Jordan had a coach.

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And I would always say that to the leaders that worked for me is that even Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan had coaches. And so did Tom Brady. No one's ever so great they don't need a coach. And when people get to a point where they think they don't need a coach, then the only one they're kidding is themselves.

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So they have to seek out individuals who give them feedback. And so to, to, to that point, feedback is critical. But you know, the most important feedback you will ever receive is no different than the feedback that was always important to me. And that was the feedback I received from the people who work directly under me.

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Right. When I'd sit down and have a cup of coffee with them. Because part of what I talk about in the book is meeting your team individually. Not about, you know, it's not about a group. You're the leader of a group comprised of individuals. And so as a leader you said, I want to be responsible for this group.

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You need to know every person in it and you need to take the time and they need to Be important enough for you to take the time to say, hey, let's Greg, let's have a cup of coffee on Tuesday for 20, 30 minutes. And then you do that with every member. And what happens in those meetings is they will take note.

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Make no mistake about it. They will give you feedback. And the same thing goes true for who you report to. Hey, boss, can we have a cup of coffee? I'd like to sit down. Never wait for the moment to come to you. Always look for feedback from your peers, the people under you and the people above you.

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And if you do that, you're going to get a great picture of what it is you need to work, deliberately on. You will absolutely get that. That is such valid advice. And I think people get so busy in this world just running, running, running fast that they forget to do that often enough.

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And I think that should be something that's part of your, schedule, that you're like, hey, I'm going to meet with my people once a month, and I'm going to get this right. But I do know that sometimes it goes months before people ask or get together with one another.

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And you mentioned statistically that you failed most leadership criteria, that you're black in a predominantly white field, shorter than average, from East Oakland, no Ivy League, education. How did you turn these perceived disadvantages into strengths for yourself?

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Because you really have climbed the ranks like nobody else that I know. You know, I put that description in the book for a singular purpose. And I went back and forth with my editor on this, candidly, you know, and they liked it. And, the publishers liked that I had that in there, because my purpose for it was to really make a point to the leader, to the young leader, no matter where they came from, no matter their race, no matter their religion, no matter any of those things.

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That success will be dependent on your actions and your results and your integrity and your ethics and how people see you as a professional. That's where success is going to come from, not from favoritism.

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It just isn't. I mean, I get that that happens. But by and large, you are a derivative of the things you accomplish, period. And organizations are in the business to do business, and they're in the business to get things accomplished. And when they see that you are able to do that at a very high level, they will acknowledge it.

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Make no mistake about it. They want good work. So that was always the point of those descriptions for me, was to say, listen, I never looked at any of them things as, barriers or things I couldn't, overcome candidly and proofs in the pudding, just based on, you know, what I was able to get done.

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So I want the young person to never have the attitude that I'm being held back because of who I am. That's really the point of me describing myself in the book. It was to say that, is that too often people take a victim road. And once you walk down the road of being a victim, it's really hard to get off it.

[11:51.3]
You can never enter that path. You have to realize that hurdles are a part of life. They just are. You're in a life where there are going to be hurdles. My grandfather was the best person, in my life at talking about these things. He said, listen, son, you know what?

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A hurdle is something for you to jump over, okay? That's what it is, okay? You don't get to make an excuse about the amount of hurdles you're going to see in your life. You were put on this planet, you know, by God, to have this hurdle free life. You're going to have hurdles, okay? It's your role to learn how to navigate them things and to jump over them.

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And realize this too, that never judge societies by the exceptions in them. Realize that most people have the same objectives. They want safety in their lives. They want to raise their families. They want to have relationships that contain respect. They want to live in neighborhoods that are communities.

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He says, so as you look at others, understand. And he was a barber, right? So he knew the world from the chair of a barber. And he also was a ticket taker on the railroad. So he'd seen a lot being born in the year 1900. And I want to put that out there in honor, of him.

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And he went through and saw the world in a place that you can only imagine. He was 19 during World War I. He went through the Great Depression. He was in the roaring twenties. He was in his twenties. He saw World War II, in his forties. He saw the assassination of a president, JFK, Martin, Luther King, Bobby King.

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He'd seen a lot, right? So far be it from me to not take the wisdom of this individual and apply it to my life, right? Well, rightfully so. I mean, when you look at the history, the time that he lived and the fact that he was a black man living in those times, and you talk about overcoming hurdles.

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He had overcome all kinds of hurdles. I'm not certain where he lived in the United States, but even more so. And what, a great example you had, growing Up. Right. And you said he was a barber and a ticket taker.

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I'm sure when he was a barber he heard all kinds of stories and he was probably a great listener as well. He had to be. He was amazing. He was amazing that way. And I never saw him get angry. He was a high, he was a, he was a, he was a man of high ethics and high integrity. And and he saw the world, in a way that said, you know, there's great people in this world and they come from all different backgrounds.

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You just have to associate yourself with them. And the others who oppose. That's right. That's right. Now you have a fascinating concept that you talk about in the book called Terms and Conditions in Leadership Relationship. Can you break that down?

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What are the unspoken terms and conditions employees have with their leaders? You know, the one thing if the readers the book get anything from it is that people have terms and conditions. And where that concept came to me from was actually, in an experience I had with a warranty on my, on my own vehicle.

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I had ideated for this book about a decade ago, but I had this one experience where a, warranty wasn't fulfilled. And I was talking to the customer service rep and the person said, hey, no, turn to page 11, look at the bottom. Read the fine print.

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Did you read the terms and get this? I was like, well, no. I mean, who does that when they get a warranty on a refrigerator? Who reads all the term? No. But I applied that to leadership for this couple of reasons. They were things I have been talking about differently, but that brought it into a clear focus.

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And what I want the people to understand in leadership is that when you hire a person, they walk through the door with terms and conditions. No different than when you check the box when you buy an app, or you check the box when you buy an airline ticket.

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When they walk through the door, you're checking a box and that box looks very much like yours. If I were to say, Greg, write down five things that are non negotiable for you to have in a relationship, you'd write them down.

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And they almost always look the same with groups. And I've done this. It's respect, listening, you know, value, making sure I'm valued. I mean these things are the bare bones. And the point of that is, is that people have them and they need to be spoken and it needs to be intentional.

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And here's what happens when people are dissatisfied in a company. They quit. People. People quit people, not companies. And when they're not being supported and you have all this turnover. And we had a lot of it in our part time ranks and we spent a lot of time on retention, which most companies have to do in order to retain their talent.

[16:44.8]
It's important to understand that when a person's terms and conditions are observed, they come to work with an attitude that they enjoy. When they're not observed, they're going to derail. And so things like dignity, respect, listening to a person when they have something to say, those are not fluffy things, those are important things.

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And here's the irony of this. Before I come off this, I would ask business owners when I would work to them and say, okay, write down the values you have in your family. You have children. They go, yep, I have a couple of kids, or whatever, and I'd say write down the things you want to, to be important from a value equation to your children.

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And they would say these five things and I'd have them do five. And I go, so to tell me the five in your business now, all your employees, if I go ask them, tell me the five value based terms and conditions to be in this business, what are they going to say to me?

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Same way. And that's right. And elite. And the own business owner would have this like, you know, RCA looking there. Oh, wow. You know, I'd say, yeah, you know, when I was a leader of, a couple hundred thirty thousand people, whatever, when I said, we're going to have hard days, tough days, long days, but here's a day we're never having.

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Team the one that lacks integrity, it mattered. The one that lacks ethics, it mattered. The one where people are disrespecting each other, it mattered. Okay? The leaders, words matter. And when you intentionally lead in that way, things look very different than had you not done them.

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And so, so that's really the point of the book with terms and conditions. I, want to, I want to, I want to really pound. But I think if they bought this book and that's all they got out of it, it was worth it. Because I don't think most business owners think about the terms and conditions that other people have.

[18:42.3]
And you've brought up a really important point and you said in the book that there are no casual moments when you're a leader. What do you mean by that? And can you share the story where this truth hit you really hard?

[18:57.8]
Because as a leader, I can see that. Although I think most leaders think there are lots of casual moments, there's none I Just did, I just did an article for a magazine. You know, staying wrote this song, the entertainer, Sting.

[19:16.4]
It's old for the. Older listeners will know this song, maybe some of you, but. But, it's called Every Breath youh take. Every move you make. Okay. Every sound you, take. I'll be watching you. That's what happens in leadership, is that.

[19:34.3]
Is that everything you say and everything you do, you want to matter? When it's about the vision of the company, when it's about the strategy, when it's about the sales plan. Well, let me help you with something. It matters even when you don't want it to. There's no casual moments in leadership.

[19:50.8]
And all you got to do is look at this recent incident with this, CEO of, the company. That. The Gerst. Yeah. At the Coldplay concert. Okay. Okay. He. You don't. And I'll tell you in a serious way that when I was a young supervisor, forget being a president, and I would see one of my employees on the weekend or at a mall or whatever, it was not lost on me that they would say they'd be with their family or whatever.

[20:20.6]
They go, that's my supervisor. And later on, when I became a president, it even amplified, and they'd be, hey, you know, they would walk their family over to me in the mall and say, I want to introduce you to the president, of the company.

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And then I had an opportunity to recognize him as an employee. When you accept the responsibility, it's total. There are no casual moments. They don't exist. The only ones that exist that look that way are when you're by yourself in your house and there's no other people watching you, and there's no cameras on a big screen.

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That's right. That's exactly right. So. So when leaders are speaking in conference rooms or, they're walking down the hallway, and an employee is walking by, or a manager. Understand the power of the moment. Yeah.

[21:13.1]
You know, and so I had that happen with me with a senior leader when I was in my 20s where I went in the restroom and this president, the senior president, was doing a visit to our business unit. And I was a manager. I wasn't. You know, I wasn't even up to division or mid manager.

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And I started to try to have a conversation with the guy, and he looked at me like I had three heads. I'll never forget it. And I was. And in that moment, I said, I will never make a person feel that way, ever. Right. Because you're Always being evaluated.

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And to this day. And think about this, I'm Talking about this 40 years later about that individual and that impression, the impression he left. In one minute. In one minute, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, I tell people, you know, we do, we do, podcasts on spirituality and I've been to see in person the Dalai Lama so many times.

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And I always comment about, you just turned 90 years old. How frequently at every event, how cool, calm, directed, and the fact that he was always laughing. He would always laugh at something. He had just his great infectious style about him and laughter.

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And, you know, I think you're right. When you're there, you have to be your authentic self, like he is. He always seems to be his authentic self. But you also have to be alert, right? You gotta be alert.

[22:43.0]
So let's talk about your B E S T principle. Walk us through how a new supervisor or leader can use a framework when they're having their first difficult conversation with an underperforming employee.

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This is in the book. This is kind of practical leadership skills 101, right? It is. It's just not thought of and no different than I didn't think of it at 22 or 23 or 30 until I learned the concept, you know, and, and I learned the concept, the best principle, in the early 90s, and it became something I would teach to, senior executives.

[23:22.1]
And the point of it is it's a frame, right? So in the book I have techniques, seven steps of effective training. It's a technique. It's in the book, the four by five Method. I think we're going to talk about that. It's in the book. But the best principle applies to everything. Think of it as the frame of the picture.

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And then you insert the training method in it. You insert the 4 by 5 method in it. Because a, leader should approach every situation, whether it's a meeting, a training event, a performance review. Doesn't matter. Using the best principle as a frame, what does it stand for?

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The B stands for be clear. Okay. Not hard. Don't beat around the bush. Why are we here? Hey, Greg, we're here today because I'm going to teach you how to drive a forklift. Be clear. Expect the best. The E is expect the best. Greg, I know you asked for this position to drive to forklift.

[24:17.0]
So I know you're going to be highly motivated to learn all of the techniques and steps required to drive the forklift. I mean, you've done a great job as an employee since you've been Here. So I'm sure it's going to be an effective training session. Stick to the objective. There are 37 steps you're going to have to complete to drive to forklift.

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And I'm going to teach you all 37. And we're not going to waver from them. We're not going to go from 1 to 7 or 7 to 14. We're going to go 1, 2, 3. We're going to stick to the objective until you're certified, until I know you can do this. We're not abandoning this process.

[24:52.9]
We're going to stick to this test commitment. We're done. So, Greg, I think you did great. Now walk me through the 37 steps of, driving this forklift like you're training me. Okay. And that, that is really the best principle in its, minimal Phase because you also use it when you're doing an employee performance review.

[25:15.8]
You want to always start with showing appreciation for the person and expecting the best in the outcome. But what it does more importantly is it gives the leader a structure. And understand structure is the real key here.

[25:31.8]
Structure matters. When you have a structure for a situation, you 100% of the time do better in that situation than if you didn't have a structure. 100% of the time. And so to simplify this for your listeners, you say to me, Noel, I want to learn how to drive through an oil slick that I, that might happen on the road.

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And I go, okay, we're going to the track and we drive through and I know how to do it expertly. And we drive through it 20 times. 20 times we go. And by the, by the 15th, 16th time you get in the technique and now you, you're able to get through the oil slick without crashing the car. You know what happens when you see it in real life?

[26:13.3]
You don't panic. You don't panic. And so what happens by using the techniques in the book, when an employee comes at the leader hot and they're angry and they're screaming because they're missing the day's pay, the leader doesn't panic. They go, I'm going to use the 4 by 5 method in this moment and I'm going to use the best principle in addition to it in this moment and it de escalates the situation and creates a win win.

[26:39.9]
And I've seen it thousands of times. Well, it's very well explained and I think that our listeners get it. And the most important part is that you follow a structure, a framework. Right? I know People don't write employee manuals just for their health.

[26:58.2]
They'd like people to actually assimilate what's inside of those things. Like, I'm sure UPS had those kind of things for drivers, for managers, for people that were working, sorting packages, everything.

[27:13.9]
And you emphasize the 4 to 1 feedback ratio for positive inputs for every corrective one. Why do so many leaders, as far as you're concerned, struggle with this? And what's a practical way to implement it starting tomorrow, if somebody wanted to?

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Because I think what I believe happens is most people don't look for the positive, they look for the negative. So when they look to the negative, that's what they find. But if they start looking for the positive, they can complement the positive.

[27:49.5]
And you probably remember this, Herb Kelleher at, Southwest Airlines, he always used to walk around with. I, think he had M&MS. Is what it was. I've watched a lot of his training videos, and he'd catch people doing stuff, right?

[28:07.0]
And he'd go, thank you for your good, hard, honest servant. Very sincerely, too. And then give him a big hug. Right. Because the airline had a big heart on the back of it as well. Right. And, and I loved the. Watching his videos because it was just so sincere. There was nothing unauthentic about it.

[28:24.5]
Right. Walk around with a bag of And Ms. And get some eponymous people, and they're like, they remembered it. It was like, man, that's what I remember her killing her doing. Right, right. That's right. It was a. He was a servant leader. And that's when leaders have arrived at the pinnacle.

[28:41.0]
And you'd say, well, if it's that obvious, why don't all people do it? The reason is because their egos get in the way. Yeah. They allow their emotions and their human being natures to get in the way. I mean, I don't know, you know, the, the, the answer to that. I just know that when the people that work under you feel like what they do matters and they're appreciated, then they're going to do it better than they would otherwise.

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Not. And the real issue for most leaders, when they don't do what Herb, did or what Jim Casey, the founder of ups, did, because he was very much the same, is because they haven't gotten it yet. And everyone doesn't understand that it takes work.

[29:23.5]
Right. It's called coming to work and leading. It's not called coming to casual. Okay. It's called coming to work. It's not called that, it's not, you know, you pick through your hand up and you got picked. And when they say, hey, you want to be the president, you ain't sure. Okay, well, now you have to actually do it. Okay.

[29:38.7]
And the people, I think, add to that, Noel, you know, Greenleaf always turned, and I'm very familiar with this, would teach the upside down model, the people under the underneath. You aren't there to serve you. You're to flip that over. You're there to serve them.

[29:54.2]
How do you serve them? And that's what Herb Kelleher got. That's what your founder of UPS got right. Was like, that's the way to do it. And I'm sure that's the way you worked, as well. So how do you think you can help people, starting today or tomorrow, actually implement, finding positive versus negative and get these leaders out from the struggle that they might be dealing with?

[30:22.8]
They have to practice. It needs to matter. So in the book I talk about, there's exercises at the end that say, go to a family member, do it at home. You know, I want think consciously about, with intent that if you have a corrective measure you need to make with a child, with your spouse, whatever, you know, first show appreciation.

[30:44.0]
But if things are doing well, and it may be 2 to 1, 3 to 1, work up the 4 to 1. But it's not about a manipulative process. It needs to start flowing naturally. You know, one of the things I would say to my sons when I wanted them to do something different is, I would say, hey, I appreciate that you made these things happen and you're doing great over here.

[31:04.6]
You know, let's talk about, you know, this other situation for a moment. Right? You can't attack the person. You know, what they need to know is that you're giving them feedback that's necessary in order to improve. It's positive when it's all said and done.

[31:20.9]
But it's a research fact that when you give four positive inputs in an employee engagement, very specifically, they will be receptive to the corrective feedback called formative. There's two forms of feedback. Motivational feedback, formative feedback, and they do what they say.

[31:39.7]
The motivational feedback is intended to motivate the person four times a one, appreciate you coming in on time every day. You know, you did a really great job last week. You can come up with whatever, but I'd like to talk to you about this package or this situation with this client.

[31:58.5]
Once they know you're not attacking them, they will have receptivity to the conversation in the four to one method opens the door to that. But you have to practice it with your friends. You know, role play it, tell your friends what you're doing, say, hey, I'm going to be using this method called four to one.

[32:15.4]
And I'd like you to practice with me for, you know, today, an hour or so. But you have to practice it. And once you practice it, it'll start to become natural. And even if it's, you know, I don't want the listeners to get hung up on exactly four to one. Here's what it can't be. Zero to one.

[32:31.0]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think there's an old statement, and I'm almost certain it might have been Zig Ziglar that said this, but, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. That's right. And so, you know, you may have memorized all the manuals in the company and done everything and you're the smartest ass around, but if you don't really truly care, it doesn't matter at all.

[32:57.2]
So, you know, the reality is it comes down to the heart you're carrying, not the head you're carrying. And, you know, the four by five method sounds pretty intriguing for conflict resolution. And I wanted you to give us a real scenario where this approach turned around a potentially explosive situation because, you know, conflict occurs every day in a business.

[33:24.3]
And conflict is a result of miscommunication 90% of the time. Yeah. And it usually happens because it's been, festering. It's been festering for a while. Right. It's like I've been miscommunicated with enough.

[33:41.1]
Now I'm pissed off and I'm going to tell this supervisor to shove it up as you know what. That's right. So tell us how you could help somebody potentially get around that explosive situation. You know, the four by five method is in the book as one of the most critical skills to develop by, the person, whether it's the leader or the business owner for the point she just made.

[34:04.3]
And in a nutshell, it disarmed. You know, I also talk about metaphor use in the book combined with the 4 by 5 method. And I'll give you an example of that. And you know, I'm going to make you an employee for a minute, Greg. You know, you, you, you're an employee. You've been doing a pretty good job.

[34:20.1]
But. But lately you've developed an attendance problem. Right? So you've been coming to late work. You know, you've been late like five times in the last couple weeks, but you're pretty good employee. But something's going on where all of a sudden you've been coming into work and I see you coming to work and I know I have to have a conversation with you about your attendance and I go, hey Greg, good morning.

[34:40.3]
How you doing? Good. How are you doing? No, I'm pretty good. Can you meet me? I wanted to go in the office, for a moment, so can you come in, meet me in the office for a second? Sure. See, I just like to talk to you about just a couple things, but you know, I want to ask you a couple questions before we get to this topic, you know, because I'm just kind of interested.

[34:59.9]
So you have any experience using Uber or Doordash or all these new gig economy? Sure, sure I do. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So. So, so let me ask you. If you use DoorDash and you were having a party and you call them and they were supposed to get your food there, five, but they didn't come till six or seven o'.

[35:18.6]
Clock. What, what would you do? I'd be upset. It'd probably cancel the order. Right. And then, and say, okay, so that happened and then you had another event and you did it again and Doordash was late again. What would, what would you do? Use them twice?

[35:33.7]
No, I probably wouldn't reorder from them. Go somewhere else. What about, what about if that happened to you with an Uber? You know, you called an Uber, you're going to the game and, and so they show up, you know, the game's at 6 and you call them to pick you up at 5, but they don't show up.

[35:49.8]
And they show up at 5:45. You don't get a message. What would you do? Well, if I didn't get a message, I'd be upset, but most of the time, no, they, they are just pinging me on my phone about when they're gonna get. Let's say I had an experience at a play one time where my wife and I got stood up for like an hour with Uber.

[36:08.5]
So. So the next time we went to the play, we called Lyft. Right. You know, so anyway, I would probably, I would probably cancel it and go get a yellow cab or something. Right. Okay. So does reliability matter to you, Granny?

[36:25.6]
Yes, it does. Okay, well in the last couple weeks, doesn't seem like it. You've been late like five times. And you're one of the best employees I have. So what's going on? Is something going on that you need my help with or.

[36:41.4]
Well, I'm having trouble with. Is that reliability matters? Right. I got it. My wife works as well, and I got to get the kids to school. And then my commute from the suburbs into the office is a long commute. I've been caught in traffic many times because of the timing, and I can't take the kids into school any earlier because there's nobody there.

[37:04.7]
They're already being dropped off early. Yeah, so. But reliability matters, right? Yep. Okay, so understand, as an organization, we gave you this job. It's yours. You know, this job belongs to you. Whose job is it, mine or yours?

[37:23.5]
It's mine. Is your job, right? I mean, you get paid here, you get benefits here. It's. Right, job. Is it mine? So whose responsibility is that job? Me. Okay, well, if you're behaving like that late Uber driver, that doordash person that's not getting on time, what.

[37:41.6]
What do you. What's it. What position are you putting the organization in? Precarious one? Because I've got to be here to help people get out and get packages. Either way, I mean, you know, it doesn't matter where UPS or a bank. The point is, is that whose job is it? Is it yours?

[37:57.2]
It's mine. I'm 100% responsible for myself. Okay, so the organization sees your own reliability. Probably. Where will that end up? And who's going to be responsible for it ending up there? Me. Okay. So here's what I need from you, Greg.

[38:15.4]
I need to see the Greg that existed before the last couple of weeks. Did you do that? Yeah, I didn't do that. I can, Okay. Give me your word, Greg, I could do it. I'll make sure my wife takes the kids to school. Give me your word that you will correct the problem.

[38:31.2]
I will correct this problem. And I'll be, at work on time. That didn't work for me. What do you need? Your word. My word? My word is that I'll be on time. I'll be here on time. So you just gave me your word that you're corrected, right? Yeah.

[38:46.7]
Okay. And here's what I'll give you. I'll give you my word that I will try to support you every turn of the way, but I'm not going to take on what you own. Is that fair? I understand. Yeah, fully. Okay. So that was the four by five method. All right.

[39:02.1]
Okay. I took the employee's point of view. I, put the ownership for the moment on who? I didn't say. You know, it's company policy. I didn't take company point of view. I didn't go. It's company policy. And you've been late, which is what most supervisors do. I didn't go, hey, Greg, I need you here on time.

[39:17.9]
That's the supervisor's perspective. That means nothing to you. What I need It means if it did, you wouldn't have been being late. It means nothing to you with the company because you wouldn't let. So I just use employee point of view.

[39:34.6]
Intensity level one. And I use the metaphor in order to get you influence. Because leadership is the ability to influence a person's behavior. Right. It's no less than that. That's what is.

[39:50.3]
That is really. You did a really good job of walking me through that. I think our listeners also got through that exercise a lot. Now, let's switch gears a little bit. We're into this modern world. People are working remotely. There's social media and transparency.

[40:08.2]
Generational differences. And you also mentioned that employees today have a lower tolerance for poor treatment from leaders. How should new managers adjust their leadership style to meet Gen Z and millennial workers?

[40:25.3]
Because this is a big deal today. A lot of turnover occurs because these leaders do not know how to work with this generational, working group. First of all, inclusivity and problem solving and work related things is really important to young people.

[40:48.9]
You know, the days of command and control, like when I got hired, those days are over. Those days are gone. You know, you know that like I know that, you know, The World War II generation, you know, and as time has gone on, that's only amplified. Where people want it to matter, they want to feel like they're important, to the organization because people quit.

[41:09.6]
People, not companies. And a really highly talented person, is going to be able to find work. And quite frankly, you know what's funny about that is, you know, you talk about degrees, but you know, someone that's a welder, you know, they can be a Gen Z or millennial welder.

[41:24.8]
They want to be treated with respect and with dignity. They want to matter. And what leaders need to understand is that to retain a talented person requires they acknowledge the individual. In the book I talk about, is listening a, skill or a value?

[41:41.9]
And I'll ask you that question, is listening well a, skill or value? I'd say skill. And here's what I want the listener to ponder. You don't listen to people you don't value. You don't. You're going to have an employee that you just don't value highly.

[42:00.0]
They may be annoying a little bit. You're saying you won't listen to them. I got it. And if they come at you with a problem, you're going to miss something. And one of these days, one day, I shouldn't say one of these days, one day a situation will arise where that employee has information you need and you know it.

[42:18.8]
And so leaders have a responsibility when the employee is talking to them, which is one of the most important things Gen Z and Millennials want is to be listened to. Right? Stop. And I, talk about this in the book a Skill. It's called stop, pause, put the phone down, move the distractions away, and listen and always listen.

[42:43.6]
And I've avoided a lot of calamities because of that. Totally. And I can see that, it is so important to focus on what it is that they need to get to be able to kind of work, work through it. Now let me, talk about what you're doing.

[43:03.7]
You currently mentor six people ranging from their 20s, their 30s. What's the most common mistake you see new leaders making, and how do you help them course correct those mistakes that they potentially are making?

[43:23.8]
Now, they've come up through the ranks. They're in a new position as a leader now. And you're their coach or their mentor. What are you informing them of? The first, most important thing I tell new leaders is never go it alone. I don't care what it is a project, you're working on a circumstance.

[43:41.5]
Get feedback. Get feedback from a respected peer. Doesn't have to be a boss. Get feedback. Because new leaders make a critical error in leaning on everything that the boss is saying, turning into feelings that they have.

[43:56.6]
Right. That's a mistake. The person who's leading the unit, has an objective. Doesn't matter what kind of unit it is. Can, be a service unit to, deliver refrigerators. Doesn't really matter. And so the new person, needs to understand that in business that organizations are looking for people who get things accomplished.

[44:18.1]
And you're going to make some mistakes on the front end of that, but you're going to have experienced peers around you and lean on them immediately, especially the ones you respect. Sit down with peers, other supervisors, and when you're having a tough time, talk to them.

[44:35.9]
Now, having said that, I can talk about, you know, leading, you know, managing up, you know, and giving them advice on, well, how'd you present that to your superior? You know, what was the circumstance? And give them, you know, help in navigating up, right? Navigating up or down or down.

[44:52.7]
But the, the number one mistake they make is having a singular focus on the boss, right? Like, this is where I'm going to listen and get all my, all my feedback. That's a mistake. They should, they should look for feedback from others, develop relationships and collaborations with others, and it will absolutely feed their learning and help them develop at a faster pace.

[45:16.3]
If someone's really good at making presentations, have a cup of coffee with that person. You know, don't abuse that, but get their feedback advice. If someone's really good at giving presentations verbally, you know, look at what that person is doing.

[45:33.8]
Do it yourself. Practice, practice, practice on your skill. Practice, practice, practice. And a lot of times when I meet with the mentees, they'll do a presentation for me on zoom and I'll give them feedback on the slides and I'll say, well, why is that slide in the presentation?

[45:50.3]
That, that one's redundant. Pull it out, you know, and I'll try to help them refine it and be, make it concise in the way that I know a president's going to look at it. So feedback from every level is really important to get, because it makes you better. And that's the advice I always give newly promoted leaders is, and it's valuable, Noel, that, that not just go to your supervisor or your, your higher up, your vp to actually look at all these mentors you work around and get feedback from them.

[46:21.2]
I mean, it's an important one, but it's one that I'm, I guarantee is being missed all the time, because they feel like, oh, well, I have to be a servant to the leader. Right? It's kind of, that's, that's the way it is. Where it really should be, that leader that's serving them, to come down and actually work that with them and help them through the issue they might be having.

[46:46.0]
Now, look, this podcast reaches a lot of people, reaches a lot of people on LinkedIn. And most of those people are business people. If somebody listening right now just got promoted to their first leadership role and is feeling a bit overwhelmed, what are three most important things that you can leave our listeners with today that they should focus on in really those first 90 days?

[47:11.9]
Well, you know, number one, the leader needs to be able to say, well, what am I not good at? What am I Struggling with, you know, presentations, conflict resolution, not understanding the objectives that my, superior has or the people under me.

[47:30.6]
You know, all of the things that. That we actually are talking about. You know, I don't want to, you know, say that by the book, but I guarantee you that if they read this book, it would allay a lot of that type of tension and anxiety that they have. Candidly, if they look at the. But the most important thing, I would say that the leader, when you say three things, is what values, what terms and conditions exist between you and your team?

[47:56.2]
Have you established that conversation in a simple way? Okay. What are the daily expectations you have of each other? I'd say that if you have employees working for you and you don't know what they do, get to know it quickly.

[48:13.0]
One of the things that I always did, even as a supervisor, was I was able to demonstrate the work I expected to be done. My employees respected the fact that I would get in the work area with them and do the work they were doing with them.

[48:29.6]
When people see you, you don't even have to be as good as they are at it, but when they see that you're willing to get in the hole with them when they live and breathe, it changes the narrative. So if you're sitting in an office, get out of it. Get out of it. If you work and you have people stocking shelves, go stock some shelves with them.

[48:49.2]
Demonstrate the job to them. It could be a clerk sitting next to her. Answer the phone, Let her train you, Let her talk to you. Because I've actually done that with newly promoted COOs, in companies where they came in and they had all this stuff they wanted to do.

[49:07.2]
And I was like, no, you need to know what all your people do. Go spend the day with the mechanics. Go spend the day with the salesperson. Sit on the phone with the receptionist. I said, when you do that, watch how they behave towards you after. That's why that TV show, the Undercover Boss, was so successful.

[49:27.9]
The reality is that's what good CEOs will do. They'll go anywhere within the structure to learn about what's going well and about what needs to be improved, and then acknowledging the people for their good work. And this book is really a great book for newly promoted people to really get an idea of some of the ways they could trans.

[49:51.8]
I should say, transform themselves to become so much better leaders. And, Noel, I want to thank you for being on the show. I think all the listeners, go to his website. It's N O E L I got it right that time.

[50:10.2]
Massey. A S S I E dot com. That's all you got to know. Just remember his name. Go there. And that masterclass. Click on that button for the masterclass because he's got a really great offering. It's a $99 masterclass with him doing videos that will teach you many of these things and things you can practice.

[50:34.1]
There's also a deeper version as well. Also, if you want to get Noel to come and do speaking engagements, you can learn more on that page as well about him coming to do speaking engagements for you. And then there's a course where he does a workshop, which he'll come out and do a workshop for very reasonable price, or he'll do it on Zoom as well.

[50:58.9]
So, do check out those pages. Check out those offerings. Noel, thank you for being a guest on the show. I really appreciate you and I look forward to meeting you in person in Irvine in the next week. Yeah, thanks for that, Greg. I had a, a great time on your show and you know, hopefully your listeners will get a thing or two that'll help, their businesses prosper and your young leaders, do, a great, development, for their leadership, journey on their leadership journey.

[51:32.6]
I'm certain that they will as long as they listen to you. And also you can, check Noel out on, LinkedIn as well. We'll have the link in the show notes. We'll also have the link to his website if you missed it during this. So don't worry about it.

[51:47.7]
It's there. And Noel, thank you so much for being on Inside Personal Growth, sharing your wisdom and insight from years at ups, from years of working in many industries, and certainly your years as what I would call an exceptional leader.

[52:03.6]
And also for all your service work you've done with the community. That's a big part and I think people need to remember that. Learn some place to give back. Knoll's a great place to, to go to his website and you'll read his, bio about all the places that he's given back.

[52:20.4]
Thanks so much. Okay, Greg, thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast on Inside Personal Growth. We appreciate your support. And for more information about new podcasts, please go to inside personal growth.com or any of your favorite channels to listen to our podcast.

[52:38.0]
Thanks again and have a wonderful day.