Welcome back to Inside personal growth in another episode, joining me. You're in London, right? London, England. I am in London. All right. Is Tiffany Gaskell, and this is the book we're going to be speaking about coaching for performance. She's got Sir John Whitmore's name above hers, but she is now the CEO correct of the organization. And this is the sixth edition of this book, and it's the world's number one coaching book. Tiffany, Good day to you. Thanks for joining us. Pleasure

lovely to be here, and thank you for having me, Greg. Oh,

you're quite welcome, and I'm glad you're going to be addressing all of those out there who, not only are coaches, probably, but those that are interested in maybe even being coached, who listen to the show. So everybody, you're in for a treat today, because you're going to learn more about coaching for performance, a little bit about John Whitmore and something about Tiffany. So Tiffany is the CEO, as I said, she spent 20 years working with C suite at Fortune 500 companies, working on corporate culture, evolution, change management, and is the creator of the performance curve. TM, a model that helps organization and leaders understand how their leadership style impacts performance. She's a regular presenter, keynote speaker. She has a background in investment banking and having previously worked at Credit Suisse Swiss in New York and London, she has a BA honors from Bristol University and MBA, and an SDA. What's the name of it? Bacon,

yeah, that's, that's Bocconi, MBA from Bucha, which is for all the Italians out there. It's in Milan. Okay,

okay. Well, tell me, you know, Tiffany, you know, how did you get into this? And why is it intrigued you so long and and how long had, had you worked before, for Sir John Whitmore before he passed away, and then you kind of took this over. Give us a little history, yeah, so

I got into this. Well, let me take you back to it was really the turn of the century, which sounds a terrible thing to say, but the year 2000 I was sitting on the trading floor of a bank, and what I realized was that leaders didn't know how to lead, and this is the the thing that I have been inquiring about ever since, and what we do now is give leaders the skills and the training to do that. So I set off in a direction. I went to did my MBA in Bocconi. I left the bank, went and did my MBA, and when I went to do my MBA, what I realized was there's so much you have to learn on an MBA, which you know about the management of the company in so many different ways, and there's very little space for organizational design, development and also leadership. And that was the thing that I felt was missing. And so I came across to John Whitmore. I saw coaching when I was actually in Italy with the first time I saw a demo, I thought it was the most extraordinary thing, because I saw someone who was weighed down by their all the interferences, the baggage, the weight of things that they were carrying with them. And as they worked with a coach in a demo, they literally put down these bags, these worries, light bags. And at the end of the coaching demo, 15 minutes later, that person was standing there looking like they were in their full potential and like they could do anything, and and they have that confidence and self belief. And when I saw that, I thought, wow, you know, if organizations had that and if leaders, if leaders had the ability to channel those skills, then that would be game changing. And really, that's hard. John Wick,

you basically had, I'm sorry, but you basically were letting them through the coaching process, let go to become themselves. And people always say, Well, what does it mean to become yourself? It means that you have the freedom, not only for expression, but to access parts of your brain, believe it or not, that you wouldn't have otherwise when you're able to do that. And it truly is an amazing thing to watch it. I know that I went through full training programs with Richard Barrett, who originally started at World Bank. And if you look at the organizational kind of consciousness, you know you're looking at court cultural changes, but also individual changes along the way. You know, what kind of leaders are we evolving into? Meaning the people that need to be leaders. Now, this edition of the book is the sixth. There aren't a lot of books that get to make it to the sixth edition. So I think a lot of the listeners out there not just what are the changes, the significant changes, but how does it really address today's evolving leader and the workplace dynamics? Because, look, we're experiencing what I would call a lack of leadership in this country right now, our country, the US, simply because we had people vote in someone who does not have that consciousness, right? I don't think they've ever been coached today in their life. So reality here is what, how does somebody out there is sitting there who maybe hasn't found a great coach, and also, for the coaches that are listening, what is it that's really different in this sixth edition that's kind of kept peace with this evolution of leadership?

Well, first of all, as you say, you know, the book is the world number one coaching book, and I think one of the reasons it is is because it's so timeless. So John wrote this book, originally in 1992 you know, he was the first person who called coaching coaching. So he coined the term performance coaching. And from that, all forms of coaching that we know in the world today were spawned. So he's really the godfather of the global coaching industry, and in the book, what we've done with the sixth edition is bring it right up to date. So when he was still alive, we, we moved it from being a what it was, which, you know, is regularly described the Bible of the coaching industry, to it being a high, sorry, a to it being how to manual. So it's like for leaders, for coaches, for people in organizations, because it's really got to be something that people can pick up and get practical use out of you know, how can I transform my workplace for the better? If

people listening Tiffany want to go to a website to find out more about the services that you are offering, whether it's somebody who wants to be trained as a coach, or somebody who's looking for coaching. What's the best website that you want to send

them to performance consultants.com and also be connect with me on LinkedIn, and you know, I'm I will be delighted. We've got a special offer just for your listeners, which we will review, reveal at the end of this. Okay,

that's awesome. We appreciate that. We always appreciate that. So you've built on Sir John Whitmore's original work. So what new insights did you bring to the table regarding this edition? When did he pass when did he pass away? In 2017 Okay, so from 2017 2025 you, the organization is the CEO, have had a lot of time to build upon this work. And as we've had such dynamic changes in our working environment, COVID, all the other kind of things, distance working you've had to kind of evolve this thing, I'm certain. So I'd love to know what some of the changes are. And we'll definitely direct people to you and for our listeners, as Tiffany just said, she's going to offer something at the end of this. So stay tuned.

It sounds like one of those, doesn't it? So in terms of the book, in terms of what we've done is, I mean, we are in such a different world to 2017 aren't we? I mean, whoever imagines that something like COVID could happen, and what we've seen as a result of that is, you know, and we've included the most up to date research and case studies, is that there is a real shift in the workforce. People want to do something that they feel that they are fulfilling their potential through and that they have meaning and purpose. You know, for future generations, it's absolutely key. I was speaking to someone the other day about someone that I'm working with from who's a millennial, and they were saying that, you know, what I what I want when I'm working is I want to feel that what I'm doing is worthy of Me dedicating my life to it. And I thought, Wow, isn't that amazing? I mean, I don't think I ever thought that. So I think that these days, organizations really have to rise to meet the needs of the generations that they're serving. Oh,

most certainly. I mean, you know, I've noticed it in even my children, right? It's like, where is the meaning, where is the purpose, where is the inclusion, you're not working or they're not working for paycheck. But in our work environments, whether it's Airbnb or it's General Motors. You've got such a diversity of population and age. You have new people coming in, older people leaving. You still have this. And I remember Chip Conley, kind of being the sage at Airbnb, was recently on here, and he said, you know, he was in his late 50s at the time, and everybody there at Airbnb was in their 20s, right? 2223 and the founders were really smart to have hired a sage like that to actually coach and be there all the time. And Chip wrote a great book about that. But the reality is, is that you've got the same situation for coaching, for performance, right? You just said it's like, Hey, where's the meaning, where's the purpose. And if not, these organizations, which are experiencing enough turnover already and lack of engagement, they will experience more if they're not coaching for what we just talked about, right?

Yeah, exactly. And I just want to define what we mean by coaching, because there are two parts to it, right? And this is when we, when we were rewriting the book, we were really thinking about the two different audiences. Well, there are three, actually, but I'll come on to that last one. Yeah, here are, but there's the coach, right? So this is the one that comes to mind when we think about coaching. It's the executive coach, it's the life coach, all that sort of thing. What we're doing on it is, what we're doing is we're focusing on coaching in organizations. So that's the first one. The second one is the leader. And so this is a leader who can use coaching to supercharge their leadership, and they can therefore create high performing teams, high performing cultures. So that's crucial, because then you get coaching into the DNA of the organization. And then the third one is when organizations do this at scale, and that's what we do. We work with multinationals. We work with companies larger and small, but the ones that you know people will have heard of are companies like Johnson and Johnson. You know, we're working with them in over 20 countries, and enabling them to bring coaching skills into their leadership. And what we're

coaching the coaches. So now what I mean is so big organizations like that. So for you listening, whether you're large or you're small, there's a champion, there's many champions, but those champions then become kind of the coaches, and those coaches are within the organizations, right? That's what, what you do is you build a model where exactly they don't actually need you. They can do it themselves with this and the other tools you provide. Is that correct? Yes.

So the internal cohorts of coaches, yes. And there are leaders who take the coaching skills into their work. And so that's a different thing, again, because it's it moves from formal one to one coaching to coaching with a small c. It's sometimes called, but this coaching that is happening every day, 365, days a year to within the organization. Luke, this

is an off the wall question for you. But with the advent of so much AI today, even Marshall Goldsmith created an AI coaching model. And I do realize that these AIs can be trained a lot, and they're not human beings, but they are helping in the process. Has your organization embrace these AI models, or are you going to or what's actually happening? I'm sorry I went off the track there on the questions, but it's so intriguing to me to see what's being done with with coaching on AI. Yeah,

it's so interesting, isn't it? Because this is the, this is the field that is developing, isn't it, and people working out what that field looks like, you know, us in the coaching industry are, and I think that it comes down to, you know, so there's the human to human coaching engagement, which so that will always have its place, right? But then, what else can we do beyond that? What can we do at really low cost that AI enables, and that's really, you know, complimentary to the human, you know, which is much higher cost, obviously. So I think it's really exciting what's happening some, sometimes I worry about it because, you know, I mean, coaching can so easily get a bad name, and so they've got to be good, right? So it's got to be, it's got to be an experience that enables potential to come through. Does not create issues along the way. But as long as the quality is there, then it can only be a good thing, because it gets coaching to more people.

I think it, I think AI can enhance, like you said, it doesn't take over the human. You know, look, I, I went back later in life and got a degree in spiritual psychology. Would you say that that was part of coaching, most definitely, because most of the people that come out of that program become great coaches. The The reality is, is that there's this human element that if someone is a very astute coach, intuitively pick up on the signs and things that are going on with people, the stressors, the things that are going on their family life, all the kind of things that get weaved into that and you, your organization, has a growth model and its evolution, and the growth model remains kind of the central theme of the book. How has its application evolved in modern coaching practice? And the second part of that question is, if you would share an example where the growth model has been pivotal in transforming an organization, I'm sure you've got some, a lot of examples.

So the GROW Model is the most used coaching model in the world. So it and John published it in that 1992 edition. He is the creator of it. And essentially, you know, in the book, we tell the story of how it, how it came into being. And it started off as this, like, you know, seven step thing. And John, John was like, Oh, this is way too complicated. So they got it down to the four step. And I kind of love the simplicity of it, because every time we take it to into organizations, it's just, it's so logical, right? So, so G is for goal, and this is, you know, I mean, a great question that goes with that, if anything were possible, you know, what would you love to happen? Okay, in relation to this project, in relation to whatever it is. And then the second one is our reality. Okay, so where are we now? So right there, you've got a gap analysis, and that's such traditional consulting approach. But the thing is very handy to understand that, because we're natural learning systems as human beings. So once we understand that, then we can all start orientating towards the goal. And a lot of times in organizations, organizations start off, leaders start off with the reality. And what we need to do is we need to get the goal. You know. What is it that we would love to have new om W options and will, you know? So what could we do? What are the options and will? What will we do? So it is a route map for leaders. And what's great about it is it's great for the left brain, because coaching, you know, a great coaching can be quite nebulous, right? And so people are like, well, what is this coaching thing? You know, what's happening here? But actually it's very practical this. This is something you can just pick up and use. So that's very

practical, you know, because you're starting with basically saying, you know, what's the goal, right? And what are the results, and you're looking at the gap in between, because we're always looking at gaps. I wrote a book called hacking the gap, a journey from intuition to innovation and beyond. And I always said, you know, when you look at that, it's like, okay, I'm trying to close that gap, and how can I do it as quickly as possible? And one of the things that comes up for me because I've recently been asked to do a talk for a business group, and I thought, Okay, what am I going to speak about? And I said, the growth mindset, the Carol Dweck stuff, versus the fixed mindset. How does this address even this model, somebody who's in this fixed mindset versus the growth mindset? Because when you really look at those things, I mean, we all, most everybody on the show knows who Carol Dweck is and the work she's done at Stanford. But the reality is, it's such a great term when you think it's somebody with a growth mindset.

Yeah, I know I love her work. And the thing I'm thinking about is that we work a particular client that we we had, which was called Linda engineering. And they are the people. You won't have heard of them, but they are the people who put the fizz in Coca Cola, okay, industrial gas. Okay, that's what we're talking about. Safety issues going on here. And the thing that is really exciting with those organizations, which are called high reliability organizations, they are organizations where if something goes wrong from a safety perspective, then someone could be harmed or even die. So they really measure their culture, and this is what organizations in the world need to move towards, because once you're aware of where your culture is, then you can work on it and you can improve it. So coming back to the growth mindset in that safety environment, the goal there is Goal Zero, okay, now this is a what's possible. This is a dream goal, okay? And that is the amazing thing, because it's aspirational, and it gets everyone out of the Okay, so we're going to get safety incidents down by such and such. It gets everybody into the what's possible. And so organizations in that safety environment are focusing on zero accidents, and that is a growth mindset, because it's not kind of like, oh, you know, that's not possible because of this, that and the other it is. It is a stepping into the What If. And I think that's really exciting. And so when we worked with this organization, we, within the first three months, they had a decrease in safety incidents of 70%

and that is by that is a tremendous result. You know, when you look at the goal and the R result, that's a huge result to be able to do that. And again, that's through mindset, yes, shifting that mindset of the people to look at that. I always remember this great saying, believe it or not, it was Peter Drucker who started it, and he said something out like this, when you look out the window, what do you see that other people don't that you could do something about right? And the reality is, if you can get your organization to be looking like people are saying, I looked out the window. What did I see that others don't see that we could actually change. That's a huge thing for people to get right now your organization is pioneered tools like coaching for performance ROI and performance curve, which is yours. I take it. How do these tools quantify the impact of coaching on an organizational performance? I know it's like, Okay, we just talked about results, because that's like, Okay. I want to know what's actually happened and and what challenges? Let's make this a two part question as well. Do organizations face when implementing measurement tools and, and how can they overcome them? Because there's certainly challenges. It's like, okay, you want to measure me? Okay, I'm not really interested in being measured, because you're going to get resistance.

Yeah. So to start with the first part, those two tools, so coaching, performance, ROI and the performance curve, so they are very similar, but for different uses. So, and you spoke to this, Greg, it's about the mindset, right? It all starts with the mindset. And so what we do is we go from mindset all the way to bottom line result and bottom line performance, and we basically track those two, and we correlate those two. So with coaching from performance. Roi,

do do you do that, Tiffany through assessments you're giving them? Or is there a dashboard that somebody sees that you've created where somebody in hrs can actually see the aggregate of 1000 people and what the progress is? How does all that work?

Exactly that, and it works because it's built into our one to one coaching engagements. So, yes, that evaluation will be built in and and it's, you know, it's written up in the book, so you can go check it out, I think it's chapter 17, and hold it up.

So you're saying that baseline when you come in and you're looking to fill the you're looking to shorten the gap, okay, between what it is they'd like to see, obviously, you said perfection, which is almost impossible, and the case you use for Lindy, but the difference between That and the result that they would like to experience. Now they don't always expect that result, but your software and your abilities to work with your organization allow them to measure that, right? Yeah,

exactly. So what we see generally is an 800% return on investment and from coaching engagements and it's fantastic to see you know, someone talk about, okay, so I changed my mindset in relation to for example. This, this one example that's coming to mind a manager who was a micromanager. He had been a micromanager, and when he worked with a coach, he changed his leadership style, and so he empowered his team, and someone in his team went off and found a loophole in legislation that saved the company at over $6 million and so he put that down to completely 100% confidence level that it was related to the Coaching. Obviously, that's a much higher ROI than the 800% but I'm just showing how mindset has an impact on bottom line.

Oh, most definitely. And I think even as individuals who are listening here, if we're talking about things that you can do, whether you work with a coach or you pick this book up and read it on your own and apply the practices you certainly can change your mindset. Look, this show has been 17 years over 1200 episodes on the air around personal growth, business wellness and spirituality, and all four of those people said to me, Well, why are you have those different genres? And I said, because the situation with somebody becoming higher performing, whether you're looking at the physical performance or the mental performance, all comes around you changing your mindset so in leadership and the culture in your experience, what are the key traits for transformational leaders? In other words, hey, there are leaders, and then there are leaders who are striving to always be better and to transform the organization and the culture. And how can coaching people like that cultivate more of these traits for them to become better and better, and how does fostering a coaching culture contribute to inclusivity and trust within organizations? Our president had the foresight, I should say, unfortunate foresight, to get rid of DIY. But the point is, is that what we'll talk about inclusivity later. I'm joking because it's not really funny, but the reality is, it is affecting a lot of places.

So um, one of the things that happens when leaders step into transformational leader is that the culture that they are leading shifts from a fear based culture to a trust based culture. And in a trust based culture there is inclusivity, there's psychological safety, there's everything that you would expect from that very highest performing leader. And the reason is that if we go back to, you know John, back in the day, back in the 1970s he worked with Tim Galway and Tim Galway of the inner game. And Tim talks about an equation, which is performance equals potential minus interference, and that sums up all coaching. And that sums up what transformational leadership is doing inside an organization. It is literally clearing out the interferences you know that we, we as human beings, have every day. You know, fears about this, that and the other and enabling potential to come through.

Well, that's, that's a great recommendation that you just gave for people to actually get that book and purchase it and understand, because it's, it is that simple, and it is the interferences. It's simple yet challenging to get rid of the interferences, because many of them are created by our own beliefs about what it is that we have to do or should do as a result of who we work for what we're doing in life. And I think again, working with the mindset and the beliefs that we carry, and the negative beliefs that we have for us, about ourselves and also our regrets, all of these kind of things are the things that affect our performance, right? I know that Stephen cottler has been on here five or six times, and it's all around the flow Genome Project, right? Which is, you know, he talks about all the factors associated with you having the highest performance without this interference, whether you're an athlete or whether you're an executive or a CEO of a company. And again, it's learning how to work with the people around you. So that brings this question up for me. You know, we have had since 2017 when Sir John went more passed away, to today, as we've already mentioned, such rapid changes in the global work environment? I mean, I don't think you and I could have predicted it, but the reality is that the uncertainty that we live with today is more apparent to almost everybody than it ever has been, and we're talking globally, whether they work someplace or their work for themselves. Where do you see the future of coaching headed in this next decade? So let's take 2025 to 2035 and how do you think this is not one going to grow and two be delivered and three be effective?

Well, those are all huge questions. Thanks.

You're quite welcome. I like to throw out good, juicy questions, because that's my job as an interview.

I mean the future, the future of authority, the future in so many ways, I think we need to, as humankind, we will find our relationship with AI, and I think that will settle down in that period.

That's a good one.

And that really will dictate, you know, a lot of other things so

well, let me ask you this Tiffany, the easy way to answer this question without making it so challenging, what when you look out the window, what do you see that others don't that you could do something about at your organization? That's a lot. Because, you know, I know we can't predict the future. We don't have a crystal ball, but we certainly, I think it was Steve Jobs who said in a speech to Stanford, the only way that you can make an impact is by connecting the dots and looking forward. You can't look back. So whatever happened before with COVID and all that other stuff, it's gone. What we need to be looking for is what is outside the front window. And how do I connect the dots? Does that make sense? So if you were connecting the dots today, what would you advise people listening to this podcast to do with their coaching? Yeah, well,

I'm thinking about, I think coaching has got such a huge role to play in what's going to happen next. It is, you know, it is the midwife of future consciousness, if you like, because coaches are working with future leaders, they are enabling that transformational leadership, that leadership that thinks about future generations and the planet, that takes a different view. So there's that. The other thing I think about is that I think that we are still in the hangover of the Industrial Revolution, I don't think we've ever really decided, okay, so as organizations, how does this need to be? And that's what I was saying about organizations measuring their culture. Organizations are unconscious about the conditions that they create for for their people. And

what do you think the hangover is? I have an idea that that that hangs on because people, people, even even leaders, are afraid to let go of that, because they really don't know how to embrace what really could be. I love that you're following me. It's like, Hey, I'm sitting here. What am I afraid of if I have this command and control environment, which you still go in organizations where that is and COVID really did a lot to remove that command and control environment, and now everybody's saying, Well, no, get back to work. You need to come back into the office now, right? We're seeing more and more of that. And so my question to you, for this, for CEOs and leaders to not be afraid of what really could happen. What do they need to unlock in their brain. Yeah,

that is exactly it. So we talked about the performance curve before, we never actually got around to talking about it, and this is it. So what happens is, you know, when I was talking about performance equals potential minus interference, yeah,

it's the interference.

Yeah. So guess what out of so every single organization in the world can will fall into one of four categories of culture, and the second lowest performing culture is command and control. So what leaders need to do to get out of that it's first of all to realize that it's not the highest performing culture. And secondly, you said, let go, Greg, and I think letting go has so much to do with it, right? It's like trusting your people, putting your confidence in them, and enabling them to find that platform through which they can fulfill their potential through their work. And it's, it's, it's easier said than done, but this, why

do you think, Tiffany, that leaders not removed from the workforce have a fear of allowing somebody to become who they could become within their organization with an aligned goal toward, you know, another organizational goals. I still believe there's huge fears with leaders to to have that. And I think one of the things that's there is, you know, I don't know if this still goes on today, but we used to look at human capital value on the balance sheet right, and they know they have to cut those paychecks, so now they have their KPIs. And I think that works directly in Converse relationship, is throwing KPIs at people, pardon me, but it but it's true, because I need to report to my board of directors that this company is healthy, that things are going good. Where have you seen an organization in your coaching models, where they've actually been? I mean, I think Patagonia is a pretty good example. But the reality is, we all point the Patagonia. Well, who, besides Patagonia is out there that's actually done something, right?

Yeah, I think that. I think KPIs have their place. The thing is that it has to be KPIs and purpose, because otherwise, I mean, you know, I love banking, because then I thought to myself, What am I doing that is contributing to the world, apart from making rich people richer? And so I needed a purpose in my life. And these the generations that are coming up through the workplace today, you know, they are not going to settle for anything less. So KPIs have their place. Purpose needs to be there, meaning purpose. And then you have rocket fuel.

Very, very I mean, if there was a formula where you put that together in the book, that would be good. Now, look, we've got leaders listening. We probably have individuals listening. What initial steps would you recommend to start building in an organization, if it's a leader or coaching culture that say, Oh, we don't have coaching right now, or for an individual to actually say, oh, you know what? I really realize I'm blocked in a lot of areas. You know in the old days as well. Let's go find a psychologist. Well, today you can just go find a coach. Now I don't want to say that all coaches are psychologists, but all psychologists or coaches their way around. What I'm here to say is that there are some really good coaches for those that are listening, that are individuals, and you could find them through the website, and definitely, if you've got an organization that's never embraced coaching, and you're just starting on this path, and you have that same fear, okay, what would you tell them?

Um, I would say that, come and talk to us. And we, you know, we, we meet people where they are, so we take them as far as they're happy to go, and it's only the it's only upside, because what we're doing is, you know, this work that bring bringing coaching into organizations, it's it positively impacts the leaders, it positively impacts their teams, and it positively impacts organizational results. So triple in there, and we will give you the tools to help you navigate, you know, skeptical leaders, or whatever it is that's going on in your particular world.

So again, the website for that is repeated again.

So performance consultants.com

performance consultants.com and you're going to want to go there. And I would say that before I ask her the last question, I'm going to ask her what she's offering all of our listeners, yes.

So for leaders and coaches, there are two different pathways, right? There's transformational leadership. So that's like a this is the course that leaders can take to supercharge their leadership skills. And then there's the performance coach pathway. So this is ICF accredited. This is for people who want to coach inside organizations, what we're offering your leaders and your coaches is 10% of our global courses. So we've got global public courses going on. And so if you reach out to me on LinkedIn, I will point you in the right direction.

Okay, so they need to go to your LinkedIn and so what we'll do is we will provide for them the link to your LinkedIn account. And so what you're going to find when you go to the website is all these resources. You'll see this information about grow. You'll see the information about the book under resources. So you can either buy it there, just go directly to Amazon to get a copy of the book as well. You'll see some client stories, what they do about them, and so on. So do that. And in the upper right hand corner there's a Contact button. I don't know if that goes directly to Tiffany, but she said, just go to her LinkedIn. We're going to put in the show notes her LinkedIn account so that you'll be able to see it in the show notes below. So for those of you who are listening and still listening, go out directly to and you're going to get a 10% reduction in the cost for these coaching programs. So let's wrap this interview up with a core takeaway. What do you want it to be if people are still listening right now after 45 minutes and they've said, Hey, there's a lot here to digest, like, see the size of the book. But the reality is, if you were to go through this book, would it be, you know, your GROW Model? Would it be? What would it be that you would tell them, hey, you can apply this today, and it will have a result with you and potentially with your workforce, yeah.

So the book is really for two audiences. So it's for the leaders and coaches. Organizations are a part of that, of course, and so think about, okay, so you know which is the lens I'm coming to this with, how do I want to leverage coaching? And then look at the book from that perspective of, okay, me as a leader or me as a coach, because there are different resources in there for leaders and for coaches. So for example, if I'm a leader, I might think, right, I want to set up a great team spirit right at the beginning. So in there is CO created agreements. Go straight to that for coaches, you might think, right? I want the great question, bag on coaching, and how to how to get the dream, you know, get out of the transactional into the transformational coaching, and you'll find question bags right at the back there. So it's a, it's really a toolkit for for everyone

well, and I'm, I'm going to this now. So for those of you who want to become a coach, maybe just take the coaching course and you want to, maybe you're in a smaller company, but you want to coach your employees, literally on there, you just click the button and you can inquire directly. And there's a syllabus for the course. There's actually certification in a course, just real quickly about how long does that course take? Is it online? Is it pre recorded? Is it live? And what might the investment be for a company wanting to put somebody through the coaching?

So those courses that are available to the public are they are online and in person like global. So whatever time zone you're in, the foundation module is about 1500 investment. And in terms of time, it's overall is two days, and it's spread over three months. So that is something to you know, bear in mind when you're thinking about, how do I want to approach this? What kind of time investment and monetary investment as well?

Okay, well, 1500 is a reasonable amount of money. It's also spread out over time. The reality and you get a certificate, and you're certified through performance consultants, correct, and you have this, you have a certificate now as a coach. And I think it's important, because the tools they give you, the foundation that they give you, is really important. So Tiffany, you have been an excellent guest on inside personal growth. You've informed my listeners about everything we set our intentions when we set out to do this podcast, I want to thank you for the insights that you've given us about your own background and how you started working with Sir John Whitmore, also, I think that however it came about, they've picked the best CEO they could to run this organization. So kudos to you. Thank you for being on inside personal growth. Thank you so much, Greg, thank you for having us. Namaste.