For this podcast, it is with joy and honor to be joined by a brilliant and competent CEO and author, Rhamy Alejeal.

Rhamy, along with his wife, owns People Processes, a provider of integrated, automated HR processes. It helps hundreds of companies across the US to learn how to stop pushing paper and start prioritizing people. Rhamy also serves on the Federal Reserve’s Industry Council on Healthcare, providing insights into employer costs and how they affect businesses in today’s marketplace.

With his expertise , he also turned their company’s concept on to a book entitled People Processes: How Your People Can Be Your Organization’s Competitive Advantage. Rhamy lays out the steps for optimizing procedures such as onboarding, scheduling, payroll, reporting, compliance, and communication to address problems like unmotivated employees, poor performance, high turnover, among others.

If you want to know more about Rhamy and his amazing works, you may visit their website by clicking here.

I hope you enjoy this engaging interview with Rhamy Alejeal. Happy listening!

THE BOOK

People Processes reveals how you can use technology to streamline your personnel operations. Taking you through every component of HR workflow, Rhamy Alejeal lays out the steps for optimizing rote procedures such as onboarding, scheduling, payroll, reporting, compliance, and communication. You’ll learn how to make the needed changes and, even better, discover what the employee experience looks like after you do.

THE AUTHOR

Rhamy, along with his wife, owns People Processes, a provider of integrated, automated HR processes. It helps hundreds of companies across the US to learn how to stop pushing paper and start prioritizing people. Rhamy also serves on the Federal Reserve’s Industry Council on Healthcare, providing insights into employer costs and how they affect businesses in today’s marketplace.

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And we have Rhamy Alejeal joining us and he's joining us from Memphis, Tennessee. Rhamy, Good day to you. How are you?

Rhamy Alejeal
Good day, Greg. I'm doing great. I appreciate you having me on.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's a pleasure having you on and you know, People Processes is really a challenge for most companies and most HR directors and CEOs and CEOs. And especially during this pandemic time, it's been really challenging, not only finding the labor, but keeping the labor. And today we're going to be talking about a lot of those issues, and how Rhamy helps people get through that to the other side, and makes it so much easier for him. And if you want to learn more about Rhamy and his company, go to people processes.com It's just like it sounds p e o p le, p-r-o-c-e-s-s-e-s.com. There you can learn more about his company, his solutions, what he provides for his clients nationwide. And Rhamy, I'm gonna tell my listeners just a little bit about you. Romea, Gao found German people processes, a provider of integrated automated HR systems on October 1 2009, Rama and his team worked with hundreds of companies across the United States, helping them learn how to stop pushing paper and start prioritizing people. I love that. In addition, Rhamy serves on the Federal Reserve's Industry Council on healthcare providing insights into employer costs, and how they affect businesses in today's marketplace. He holds a bachelor's degree in finance, economics, and an MBA with a focus on economics. And we're talking today about his new book, can you hold that up? People processes, there you go. It's a number one best seller in Amazon, under the HR category, and one of Inc. dot coms top 10 leadership books that you can get. And again, we'll put a link to Amazon to get this book, we'll also put a link to Romney's website, while running to set the stage for the interview. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? How did you get into the world of HR, and what's the greatest lesson that you learned from people and processes because every day your team, you have to deal with complex issues, but you help people simplify it and make it easier in their life. So tell us a little bit about yourself and how you and your team do that?

Rhamy Alejeal
Well, like any good HR person there, I was five years old Halloween, I dressed up as an HR person, you know, with a checklist and a funny hat. No, no one ever winds up in this career. You know, I wanted to be an astronaut. And this This is where I wound up. But I over the years, I was very entrepreneurial. I started young building businesses, growing businesses. And the bottleneck that most small businesses had, that were marginally successful, I'd say the truth is, most small businesses fail, because they have a crap product. They don't know what they're doing. They, they have a problem, right? That's the first step is don't suck at your job. And that's a, that's a hard enough lift for many people. But once you get through that, and you start creating standard operating procedures, and you start building out a team who's supposed to follow those items where I saw, the most bottleneck was in that realm of people, and management. And that's what attracted me to it. It's a big problem. And I wanted to help solve that. My wife and I started this company together 12 years ago, fresh out of graduate school. And we have focused on various parts of it from, you know, insurance and compensation benefits analysis, that kind of world thinking that the answer to getting good people was providing a great compensation package, as part of it, to investing in purchasing companies that were in the realm of payroll time off management time, and labor, timekeeping, thinking, Oh, it's not just having a great package, you also have to have a great, you know, software experience, and that's part of it too. But over the years that's developed really into a full suite of HR, that's not just the tools, and not just the information, but also the culture, the performance management, the pieces needed to really remove people as a bottleneck as best you can inside the organizations

Greg Voisen
Did either you have your wife, I mean, usually when you get people that are working in organizational development, cultural transformation, this kind of area, they had an interest to go into psychology, where either you weren't because you came from a financial background, but what was it that kind of intrigued you both Muzo psychotic, the softer side, they call it the soft side? You know? People say, hey, in my balance sheet, my biggest asset are my people. But what is the actual cost of having those people? I know you deal with turnover rates, you deal with retention issues, you deal with all kinds of things. But how did the two of you go from? Well, in your case, it was your financial guy by

Rhamy Alejeal
On labor economics right saver. So I loved economics. And I still do and I, I approach very much from that data world, I love figuring out the motivations and drivers and turning them into dollars. That's my world. I absolutely love it. My wife, undergraduate in theater, stage management, she came from the theater world, her mother's an opera singer and her, you know, father's a PhD and choral music, very useful. He's a great guy, he doesn't see that. But he, it's that world, she became a stage manager and at 20 was put it was managing shows with multimillion dollar budgets and huge staffs. She was a savant at stage management. The business world needs both It needs people. You need the data and the guidance and the academic side to understand and informed decision making. But Liz's, the show must go on. And we're going to bring in people from all walks of life, with differing levels of skills and experience for their unique value, and put them together and in three months turn that into a show, honestly, has had a much bigger impact than my ability to do statistical analysis.

Greg Voisen
And I think the key is in the stages of our life, you know, she's got all these actors on the on in the play. Same thing in business, those are the actors that are playing in the business. And with her background and your background, you make a dynamic duo team to actually help employers navigate that, because look, you can write a script for the play, which would be the business plan, you can put that actors on the stage, but doesn't always work out that way. What is the purpose of writing people processes? And what did you find missing and needed to be communicated me to a world that was really in reality, are readily available for business owners to reference in the book?

Rhamy Alejeal
That is a great question. I, again, come from a bit of a nerd background. So I'll tell you when I wrote my book, it was 440, single page work single spaced word of pages with graphs and charts and analysis. And my, my editors, sat me down and said, Rhamy, are you writing a textbook you would like to be used in graduate HR courses? Or are you writing a book for business owners to understand and make progress inside their business, they smacked me around pretty hard. In the end, people processes have a few. The book has a few key guiding principles, one, it should give you a next step, it should give you something that anyone can read pretty much at any level of experience, and have something trigger to go Alright, well, that's a place that can improve. The second, the SEL, is that systems need to be applied in HR. And many people miss that an HR, some people are data people, some people are people, people, a lot of people in HR, love the people side of it, but they miss the great gain of modernity, of systematic improvement. And so we try to lay out the key systems and how you can work on them to make incremental improvement. The wellness of the Yeah. Oh, Greg, you're on mute, buddy.

Greg Voisen
Sorry. Well, we'll edit that. It is, you know, interesting in the book, and I'll let you get to that the purpose of the book, you know, the purpose of the book is a roadmap. You know, in essence that you know, if I was just say it, that's really what it is. But your roadmap is unique, right? There are certain things and elements that every HR person comes through, but I think you bring a uniqueness to it. What would you say is people processes is unique?

Rhamy Alejeal
to me, the you again, it's there's nothing new under the sun, I am amalgamate are of all great best practices. What I look at from the book specifically, is its ability to set up each one of these employee life cycles or key events and in in HR key systems in HR, and not just put them in place or tell you what to tell you what to do in them. But to establish a system that improves itself, because no matter how well I write my book, it will be wrong in five years in HR, it will be very wrong in 20 years, right so it's more about designing the process. SS that help you put something in place, run it, make an incremental change, measure it and come out with a new solution. And that is so much more valuable than any one leap forward. So all of our clients and the things that are really our claim to fame is putting in place these systems and processes that improve themselves over time, more than any stroke of genius, I have, oh, you know, you really could do it this way. It's about making sure it improves over time.

Greg Voisen
Well, and I think most of our listeners know who are managing, managing people or an HR or CFO or, or the CFO, it's an iterative process, you know, everything, as it relates to business is an iterative process. It's always about fine tuning and making it better. And I think what you provide is the little touches that can fine tune the process. And in the introduction of the book, you tell an interesting story about Christie of a 40, something manager was looking for just an opportunity, and finally got it. Can you share her interesting story with our listeners, and how it kind of relates to people processes? Yeah, I thought Christie was

Rhamy Alejeal
the avatar I was trying to write to, in this book. Christie is was she worked in a nonprofit, she wound up becoming the executive director of a nonprofit after working in a few other places. And the nonprofit she took over had a mission that was dear to her heart. That was very important. But it had been around a while, in a good way. It was a pillar of the community. And everyone knew this nonprofit. And that it solves these problems. But she went in there and found the average employee tenure was 35 years. The average the average employee age was 63. Not the end of the world, I'm not an ageist, but this company had stagnated, they were doing the same things they were doing 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. And when she went into this nonprofit, the management, the managers of it, were at best paper pushers, they were completely consumed with the day to day administration of it and no real progress on the mission, or the way they did things had been achieved in many, many years. They kind of stagnated. Christi went in and it wasn't that their mission was wrong. It wasn't what they what they were doing in the community had any sort of problem or, you know, they needed to revise those had been kept up with, but the way they manage their own people was the primary issue. And she implemented many changes that around performance management, recruiting, onboarding, even things like time and labor time off payroll management, that moved the average manager from spending 30 ish hours a week on effectively administration to being able to focus significant Lee on their time moving that administrative timeframe, down to two or three hours a week, to being able to focus on actually improving the systems and improving the outcomes of their people. And, and I think that's kind of the dream, right? The dream is that you're spending your time working on the business than in it, both from an executive level. But even at a managerial level, if you're able to get rid of the rote, repetitive administrative side of things, you're able to spend significantly more times making improvements. And that was really what Christie captured and was able to do inside her nonprofit.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, speaking to nonprofit because you use that example, you know, many businesses look to the triple bottom line, and it's people plan it. Right and purpose. Right, right. Are you working more with businesses? Are you seeing a shift? Because look, it's the people in the business, you know, if you don't have a handle around that, you have one of the biggest challenges culture, the people, whatever you want to call it. It's my human resources. It's my highest investment that I have. But where are you seeing the shift, if you would, for retraction and attention of millennial type people to come to work inside of companies and stay where the planet and purpose is aligned with the people that they're hiring? So that they can feel like and are not just feel like I don't want to use a term like feel like but that there is a difference being made by the company so TOMS shoes or Patagonia or any of these kinds of examples. What are you seeing the shift in smaller businesses are you seeing much?

Rhamy Alejeal
Yes, for first of all, I guess I should disclose that 70% or so of my clients are nonprofit, I actually very tied to companies that are mission driven. The remaining 30%, we have a pretty strong selection process. But one of the key items, I find the most successful for profit businesses are those that are a mission that has a business surrounding them, not a business, that's figured out what their mission is going to be. Right, right. So in our organization, which is a for profit business, our drive is 101, great places to work. The one is us, we work with only 100 clients, at any given time, we give up to a year's notice when we let somebody go, and we only work with those 100 companies. And it's that limitation has allowed us to focus on our focus our efforts to the extent that we make an impact in the lives of the business owners, the managers and the employees. And that's very much how we drive it. We want 10,000 Wonderful, happy employees that we're taking care of as an HR department. And so you're not

Greg Voisen
Just a jar, you're really much more expansive than that. And I think when people go to your website, they'll see that that's the case.

Rhamy Alejeal
But those 10,000, but the key is that the mission drives us, right, in the clients we work with. A lot of that is sometimes the business owners have to take a step back, if they want to attract people who are highly talented, who are going to give above and beyond a paycheck for time to think about it when they wake up in the morning, oh man, how can I make that better, you have to have something that matters more than getting a paycheck. And that that, that is a key part of what I find is a lot of times business owners in the for profit space, they actually have that mission in the back of their head. Sometimes they've even tied their own personal finances to that mission. But the communication internally, and the alignment of the employees to that mission is a place where HR can make a big difference and communication.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, it's a it's a dance that we play this between the two of these we know we've got to make income, we've got to make payroll. And but we want to do something that will better the world and make a bigger impact. And I think that's important. It's just like me with compassionate communications Foundation, my nonprofit, when I help the homeless, or the people in Ukraine, and I take nothing from the show. My goal in my mission through doing these interviews is to educate, inform and inspire my audience, while at the same time providing benefit and relief to people that are underprivileged. So I look at that mission. That's what gets me up every morning. That's what drives me to do what I do. In in your section on shifting focus to people you speak about popular financial, and a company that provides HR solutions to help businesses talk to listeners about popular financial, and what are some of the challenges you had in making this complicated, uncomplicated? Well,

Rhamy Alejeal
Poplar? No you to the poplar financial was the company that Liz and I founded 12 years ago and did all this HR Finance, payroll work. It's poorly named. But what did I know? I thought we were going to be more in insurance and compensation.

Greg Voisen
I absolutely. Repeat, I like people processes better. We renamed

Rhamy Alejeal
It. Yes. We rebranded online, all of our stuff makes a lot more sense. Yeah. Because I often got credit, like, do you do mortgages? I'm like, well, here's why. We all have our own business lessons to

Greg Voisen
Know we do bark off of trees, we do barks often.

Rhamy Alejeal
So yes, people processes. But I will say some of the biggest, you know, challenges or the some of the biggest things that we've put in place. In our company, we have around 140 individual items that we consider that make up the employee experience and the business systems. And that is that some of those things are simple, like compensation analysis. Some of them are more soft, like cultural communications, core values, those sorts of items. And basically, what we do as a as an organization is when a company hires us, we come in and analyze what they're doing based on those 140 items. We just say, walk us through it. How do you happen? And in a small business with 20 employees, you know what 90 of them the answer is, we don't do that. Right? Or I downloaded it off Google five years ago. That's how I know I'm compliant. Right? So we work through all those items. And then we lay out a 12-month strategic plan and we work through Each system, each little grouping, one month at a time, talk to management, talk to individual stakeholders, put together a program presented, get approval communicated, push it back out, it's step by step as we work through those items. And most of those items are actually good. It's developed a little bit since the book came out. But most of them are in that last section of the book where we kind of lay out all the key employee lifecycle events and processes that we're just going through. And we're saying, what do you do?

Greg Voisen
It's like anybody who has to take an intake to get an audit. That's right, this is kind of your audit process, that you know that when these steps are being followed, it works. And then if they're not, there's a challenge. And that that allows you to determine the focus of your employees that are going to work with these clients and how they're going to get it done. And you state that onboarding is an important welcome. I couldn't agree more. We were talking about that with a client this morning, actually. What advice can you give to the HR leaders to be able to conduct seamless and successful and I'm going to add to this kind of salient, you know, look, if you go to work for Disney, you're gonna have a two-week onboarding, you're gonna know who Walt Disney was, you're gonna know, Roger Disney was, you're gonna know everything about the company, before you start sweeping the streets at Disneyland and Anna, okay, or whatever the job is serving food. But you're gonna know, but most small businesses do not have a two-week onboarding process. So how do you help people create that?

Rhamy Alejeal
So onboarding, I would first address the mindset of the business owner, especially in I would push out that the acquisition of a new employee, from recruiting through interview and selection to the actual offer letter, and to bring them on is as equally challenging. And as huge and as large of an impact in your organization, especially in a small business that's only got five or six people, or 10, or 12 people, you're talking a huge percentage of your labor pool is coming on, it's as big of a deal as getting the largest client you've ever gotten. Imagine you had worked so hard to market, to identify, to qualify, then to sell a huge client, they signed up, and then you said, Great, I'm gonna FedEx you a stack of black and white photocopies that are kind of crooked, fill those out, and we'll be all good to work together. That's, that's onboarding for most small businesses. You went through all this crap, and then you're gonna say, All right, here's your paperwork. Thank you. Thank you. Let me know if you have any questions as Sally, she'll just see what Sally does. You can do that exactly. acquisition process for a 10th of your labor pool. Or your glory forbids your fifth employee, man, no wonder turnover is ridiculous among these companies, because you got it, you haven't put it, it's if you treated your clients that way, they would send that back to you. With a frowny face note and just never talk to you again, your employees need to be treated the same way. And you're gonna get the same results. By setting your onboarding up, you're doing the same things you do with a client, you're intaking gathering the information you need. You're orientating them, here's what's going to happen. You're setting expectations, here's how we're going to interact and what the deliverables look like. Right? It's the same steps you're going through with your employees, you're gonna bring them in, doesn't have to be in person, I highly recommend digital onboarding, it's much more systematic and consistent, which is very good. But what you're going to do is introduce them to the company history, you're going to introduce them to the company leadership. And then as you grow, you're going to start walking through each layer of the company. Here's an overview of the departments. Here's a deep dive on your department. Here's a deep dive on your job. And you're laying out how they orientate themselves in the organization and where they need to go for help, where how they interact, how they fit in. And then you're going to lay out performance expectations, just like you would with a client, here's what we expect, here's what we're going to get. And you're going to hopefully, through this process, not just orientate them to what's happening, but how things happen. So you want to talk about the culture in terms of the behaviors that you expect and that you expect other employees to have towards them. Just some basic cultural pieces like that make a big difference. And I..

Greg Voisen
For me, your monitor just went off. I saw that I should be back now. Okay. All right. Well, I have to edit that. All right. But yeah..

Rhamy Alejeal
So implementing those cultural onboarding steps is not does not have to be particularly time consuming. And I but it does not have to be particularly polished. Disney has the down to a fine art. And they have animators who are going to draw a cartoon of a new employee coming to the cafeteria. Get your cell phone out, pointed at your head, and tell people why you do what you do and what you're working on. And then have their manager do the same thing. And also lay out what they're looking for in the new cafeteria server. I love when my cafeteria servers do this, I hate when they do this. I can't wait to meet you. It's a minute and a half video on a shaky cell phone. Yeah, it will have a huge impact.

Greg Voisen
And also, you know, maybe even show them the org chart and where they are in their chart, right. You know, give me an idea of the structure of the company and so on. You know, you, you state that many HR processes are time sensitive and delays and they're missing information that can cause more than simply logistical issues. How do you recommend that HR leaders deal with delays in HR processing and implementation because it it's a it's a jagged process at best unless there's a system. The other thing is to keep the flow of perspective employed employees in a pipeline. So you're constantly either interviewing or walking. I don't care if you're using indeed or you're using LinkedIn or whatever process you're using, speak with us about creating a better process?

Rhamy Alejeal
Sure. Well, as you mentioned, the future employee pipeline is an absolute recruiter, we call it the recruiting process that often stops starts at Job analysis, what you're looking for, through advertisement through interview to select for those items, so on and so forth, you need a process, you need to be able to keep track of it. In general, HR is one of the most antiquated systems in most small businesses and even forget small businesses in most businesses, because there's less external pressure. If your website looks like it was built in 2008, your executive is going to know it, and they're going to get yelled at about it. But if your process for requesting time off, you know, requires they use Internet Explorer, you're gonna engage that's what the employees have to do, right? Or God, they have to fill out a piece of paper and send it somewhere. So what I would say is that in order to address most of these process bottlenecks, it's the adoption of technology saves you a ton. The number of people or the number of businesses not small either that still have their benefits enrollment done on paper, where an employee writes in their hire date, their date of birth, their social, all their kids, socials, all their kids dates of birth on a piece of paper and checks the boxes of what they want. I have seen multi Oh, I think the lawsuit was about 190,000 Was what it's settled for. Because an employee while filling out their paperwork, reversed the hire date, and birthday. Right? This wound up going into an insurance carrier, who for some reason insured someone who's five years old as an employee. But when the cancer claim came,

Greg Voisen
denied the claim. Right?

Rhamy Alejeal
Yeah, is this very basic, if they had had an automated system, it would have been completely obvious that you can't put in a date of birth that's under 19 years old, or whatever. Right? So these sorts of items, over time compounds when you don't have good systems. So that's just a random example. But in general, automation, and better technology allows you to design processes that save you from dealing with these crap burning fires that come up every three weeks in HR, that are because someone did something wrong. And by automating the submission, you can make those problems go away

Greg Voisen
the devils in the details usually and you know, your company helps people get the details right. And put it in perspective to how important it really is. And I think these HR departments, at most in these small companies have maybe one-part time person or a person and they have other job functions on top of it that the employers as laid on them. So they find it challenging at best do their job effectively. Whereas if they had systems, they could do the job much more effectively. And you state that communications is the most important component of HR as it is the multiplier that makes everything you you've done work effectively. What are some of the tips that you have for the HR leaders listening to become better at communicating both good and bad news to employees?

Rhamy Alejeal
Very good question. Communication is the differentiator in good versus bad HR. I mean, you could have a bad HR department in that they don't know what they're doing. And they don't have good systems and all that. And that's terrible. But many HR problems are perception problems, their problems with the information that is available to the employee and how it was communicated. A few quick tips, good news, or bad news or new processes and new policies, whatever it is, written, is best explaining what. But video best explains why I don't believe that there should be it, you know, and if you can't, if you're not a person who can do a video, you gotta go talk in person, that's the downside. But everything you do, that interacts with your employees, needs to have a why behind it. Employees are understanding, believe it or not, they're gonna have that they understand that you're a business with limited resources, you have to make choices between certain items. And you can't provide six months of paid maternity, because of this thing. And that you have to lay that out for them. The why is incredibly important. So we communicate what in writing, and why via videos. And nothing we do, whether that's benefits, whether that's HR, an HR policy, around sexual harassment around partying at the workplace, drinking on the job, whatever it is, whether it's a new update, or revision, or just a brand new thing that's come out, there's a paper aspect, and then there's a communication aspect of it. And we invest as much time in our videography, graphic design and copywriting, as we do in the actual HR side of things. And that's why we're perceived as incredibly good. The truth is sherm.org, get your share membership, you can go get the same policies that 99% of businesses are going to use, and they're just fine. But the communication will separate you.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it always has been around communication. I know companies that specialize in actually giving employees a statement of their benefits, right? Now we're gonna employ, so an employee benefit statement. So they understand the value of working at the company, you know, we're going to pay FICA tax, and we're going to pay SDI and we're going to pay all these taxes that we pay for you and contribute in your time off your vacation, pay all of that. And when you add it to the normal paycheck, you get to see what the real paycheck is, right? Sure. And for a lot of people, that makes a big difference. And that statement is really big. You speak about automation, as the important factor to keeping the processes consistent, and round effectively improve the overall HR, what's the best bit of advice or tips you can provide to listeners, whether they're in HR or not about automation is its function in HR, because the reality is, if you've got a CEO listening, or CFO listening, you know, that these are the kinds of things they need to understand as well.

Rhamy Alejeal
The bane of automation is siloing. The number one issue, especially in larger enterprise systems, is simply that there are so many legacy items and ways of interacting, that you cannot, that it's very difficult to actually automate well, and so that that's why some of these things take ridiculous amounts of investment, because you're replacing a training system that you've had for 14 years, and a payroll system, and a time and labor system, and a Benefits Management way of doing things, and a retirement platform. And there's all these different pieces. And if your HR person, every time they have to hire somebody has to go in and add them to payroll, and inform a benefits carrier and another benefits carrier and another benefits carrier and the retirement company, and then turn on their timekeeping and then get their security turned on, and then order all their materials. The likelihood of a mistake is it's not a likelihood it is a certainty that it will happen. automation allows us to make sure that they happen the same way every time. And the hard part of it. The tip is you have to fight the siloing of data. It is so easy to go, Oh, here's a new leadership training software. Let's Well that sounds great. We'll have a weekly training system on how to manage people. Great, great, great. And it's $7 a month per employee. This is perfect. And you get an approval for that and you put it in and now your managers are running through a training system that has no connection to the onboarding of employees that has no connection to the termination thereof. The number of companies we go in and they're paying for a hunt Word, subscriptions that they don't have that 100 licenses on a subscription for people that have been terminated. Because that's a thing that doesn't automate and connect. So when you're evaluating your systems, you need to think about its ability to either provide everything you need, which is unlikely, or at least integrate and automate across the board. Small businesses have it easier, they don't have, you know, decades of legacy systems to make them talk for them. They need to be thinking future facing. Right, when they're evaluating these, they need to be thinking Well, right now, I don't have a 401k. But how does this work when we do one? And right now, I don't have a need for in depth data analysis to figure out what you know what levels these employees are behaving at. But what's that going to look like in the future? And make sure you have a backbone you can grow?

Greg Voisen
Would you say people processes is not may not be a fair comparison, but is like the people soft for smaller businesses?

Rhamy Alejeal
I compete against workday all the time. Yeah, okay. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. And, you know, we were, we were, the difference is between an enterprise so we're in it, we buy and build out enterprise multimillion dollar software that is used at 1000 Plus employee companies. And then we do it for the client, they have access, they can go in and design a multi tiered workflow with custom forms, that splits out and waits for different things and all that. But if they work with us, we assigned them a system engineer, their HR managers, like we need this thing to work their business owners like this is a problem. The system engineer programs, all that. And we have to do that when we originally started with our large we wanted to build software that a small business owner could use, like the big boys to automate these things, right? It didn't honestly didn't work. I mean, we could, we could sell it, but they wouldn't use it right and have the time or the expertise. We learned that for companies that fewer than a couple 100 employees. The only way to do this is to have a staff of six or seven experts who can handle each.

Greg Voisen
One. Do you have your own platform? Or do you use a guy that talks to all of these others and brings various pieces and elements in to make it happen? Or is it both?

Rhamy Alejeal
It's both? Yeah. So we customize, we have our own kind of software development around certain HR functions. But we use master tax which is ADPs large tax engine that does geospatial taxing, there are 13,000 tax districts, it would take more than my entire company just to keep track of that. So we write for timekeeping, we love you know, timekeeping, I can I could program a basic clock in and out system, or my team could, but we use Cronos we've bought their wholesale license, it's integrated, and the clients don't know anything about Chronos. But if they need physical clocks, I can't I'm not gonna go source from China a bunch of physical clocks, I'm gonna call up Chronos and say, Send me six biometric clocks with thumb prints, play around with our system, right? So yeah, it's a combination of unique pieces and enterprise grade pieces.

Greg Voisen
Sounds fascinating. I have a client right now that using time docs, they only have 100 employees. But, you know, in when you get in small business world, a lot of these people are still using QuickBooks. Well, QuickBooks has its own time, timesheet. And especially when you're trying to do job costing, and you bring in some other vendor from the outside, it complicates matter, because now it has to be brought in and then your payroll is being done by decision HR. And, you know, you start to get all of these systems that are trying to talk to one another. And, you know, people you know, just want to put a gun to their head.

Rhamy Alejeal
So in ours, you know, we integrate with QuickBooks, we integrate with Xero for the small business side, so it all flows through, we're going to talk to your CFO, we're gonna talk to your CFO or your finance team, import your chart of accounts and connect all those pieces for time and labor management tea sheets is great. You can assign jobs, you can assign departments, but we can assign not just those, but also collect mileage, collect tips, allow people to insert certain piecework items that give them sales, all that complexity that you need in an enterprise grade timekeeping system. Most small businesses don't need but in order for us to be able to serve 100 Different ones we need. And that's where our system is pretty different. We're able to really bring those in depth enterprise grade features, and then tie them back to a QuickBooks chart of accounts. So everything's put through,

Greg Voisen
Well, you've gotten a wonderful process and you understand and I think that's important because you're always doing your due diligence on other pieces of software that could have a great integration and bring a dashboard into the system that would be effective and allowing somebody to improve their processes. If you're gonna leave our listeners with three great takeaways from your book, what would they be and how He suggests that they put him to action.

Rhamy Alejeal
All right? Small business, we're gonna take them piece by piece, small business, maybe you're hiring your first few people. You suck at it, that's how it is, you're new to it, you're going to hire the wrong person, you're probably going to treat them wrong, you don't know how to set their performance expectations. So start hiring the easy jobs. First, small business owners. If your third hire is a co CEO, you're doing it wrong. Hire the simplest jobs first, with the recognition that you got a place to learn and you got to, you're not risking your entire company on this higher. So start simple. And look at it as an iterative process so that as you put things in place, you can improve them over time and scale up. Small business, medium business, you are 20 to 150 employees, you're you've got a system in place you're growing for those. For those, I want you to look at each one of your key HR systems. They're listed out in my book. But they may be recruiting, onboarding, performance management benefits and compensation, off boarding, lay out what you think are those key systems, you should have at that size, some sort of process guide that you kind of follow for those things to some degree may not be well defined. But I want you to write a goal for each one of those systems, is the goal of onboarding, to get pieces of paper filled out, to not go to jail, those are reasonable goals. But perhaps the goal of your onboarding should be to as quickly as possible change from an enthusiastic new hire, to someone who can be trusted to make decisions in the absence of management. Think about what the goals are for each of those systems, and then look at your processes. You're smart, you're smart chap, you'll figure it out. I have 100% belief that if you turn your brain to any one of those processes, after setting a goal, you will see five things that could be improved very quickly. Pick one, and make a change small piece at a time. Larger companies, enterprise great companies, my last tip, I want you to start thinking about the data you have and what conclusions you can draw from it, the interaction between your PTO system and your benefits system and your performance management system. If it's a single system, great, but a lot of times those are spread across multiple organizations, multiple divisions, think about the data analysis that you could have done to figure out if there are trends and relationships between these pieces. The best thing about automation is that it gets you clean data in it means that the result is similar that you're not going to have these screw ups. Now it's time let's say you've done all that you're going Rhamy, I've got a great HR system, what do I do next? I want you to take a minute and think about what data can teach you from that. And see if there are correlations between for example, time off that lasts longer than three days. And negative performance reviews or average utilization of time off, and the overall career track that someone has, and start seeing if that can teach you something about how your culture is maybe frontline employees, even though you say you have a highly inclusive, you know flexible schedule, but the ones that take time off seem to share not get very often promoted do that. You need to be able to analyze that data. And I recommend that would be a great step for larger organizations that already have the basics in place and if needed or improvements and are working on them to start thinking about the information they can

Greg Voisen
look. Well, those are three great trips, tips. And Rhamy it's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth, taking time to talk with our listeners, hold your book, if you're up if you would, again, please about your people processes book. I'm gonna recommend everybody go out and get that book. Also go to his website is website is filled with resources. It's people processes.com. There's an academy there, there's resources there. It's a complete HR, you literally can do that. Or just reach out to Romney. There's a phone number there. He'd be happy to take your call, or somebody within the organization would. They're based in Memphis, Tennessee. So for those of you in time zones, you know, it's eastern time zone. So do reach out to him. Let him know you're there. And let him know you've got a problem and see if he can help you resolve that either just maybe by buying the book. Or maybe he's got some simple solutions for you Rhamy. Pleasure having you on the show. Thanks so much for taking the time. Appreciate you providing your wisdom, expertise and knowledge to my listeners around the whole world of human resources and people management and people processes. That clutter.

Rhamy Alejeal
Thank you

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A CEO/Founder, a trusted speaker, a bestselling author – Carol Sanford joined me for this podcast to share her thoughts, ideas and stories.

As a consistent disruptor and contrarian working side by side in designing and leading systemic business change, Carol is a founder and designer of The Regenerative Business Development Community with lifetime members of almost 500 members and of The Regenerative Change Agent Development community with regenerative change agents learning about and creating change together. She also produces podcasts and summits along with these.

Moreover, Carol is the best selling author of several books like The Regenerative Business: Redesign Work, Cultivate Human Potential, Achieve Extraordinary Outcomes, The Responsible Entrepreneur: Four Game-Changing Archetypes for Founders, Leaders, and Impact Investors, among others. Thus, I am honored that we were able to have an engaging conversation about one of her masterpieces – The Regenerative Life: Transform Any Organization, Our Society, and Your Destiny.

The Regenerative Life shows its readers how to fundamentally change the roles you play in society, enabling you to master more than you ever believed possible; grow, provide astounding innovations and bring new life and success. It guides you to see your personal and career roles differently and understands what your role is at its core.

If you’re interested in learning more about Carol and her amazing works, you may click here to be directed to her website.

Thank you for joining Carol Sanford and I in this podcast. Happy listening!

THE BOOK

THE REGENERATIVE LIFE will teach you to see your personal and career roles differently: stripping away all preconceptions of how it should be done, understanding what your role is at its core, and building yourself back up to become something new; an innovation so grounded, inspiring, and resilient, it can change the world.

THE AUTHOR

A consistent disruptor and contrarian working side by side in designing and leading systemic business change, founder and designer of The Regenerative Business Development Community and of The Regenerative Change Agent Development community and the best selling author of several books like The Regenerative Business: Redesign Work, Cultivate Human Potential, Achieve Extraordinary Outcomes; The Responsible Entrepreneur: Four Game-Changing Archetypes for Founders, Leaders, and Impact Investors, among others.

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

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My guest for this podcast is a competent professor, author of Essential Spirituality: The 7 Central Practices to Awaken Heart and Mind and a motivational speaker – Roger Walsh.

Roger graduated from Australia’s Queensland University and has degrees in psychology, physiology, neuroscience and medicine. In the present, he is a trusted professor in University of California at Irvine in the departments of Psychiatry, Philosophy, and Anthropology, as well as in the Religious Studies Program.

In this podcast, we’ve talked about his podcast series together with John Depuy, M.A. entitled Deep Transformation. Their podcasts feature great consciousness pioneers — the outstanding thinkers, sages, scientists, and activists of our time to discuss different present and relevant issues. With his experiences and expertise, Roger has also come up with several inspiring books. One of them is Essential Spirituality: The 7 Central Practices to Awaken Heart and Mind which we have also tackled in this interview.

If you want to listen to Deep Transformation’s episodes, you may visit their website by clicking here. You may also click here to access Roger’s website.

I hope you enjoy this engaging interview with Roger Walsh. Thank you and happy listening!

THE PODCAST

Deep Transformation features great consciousness pioneers — the outstanding thinkers, sages, scientists, and activists of our time to discuss different present and relevant issues. It draws on diverse ideas to seek syntheses of deep wisdom and practical know-how that integrate the best of all positions.

THE BOOK

Based on over twenty years of research and spiritual practice, written by a man who is both a spiritual practitioner and award-winning scientist, this is a groundbreaking and life-changing book. For the first time, Essential Spirituality shows how you can apply the seven practices central to all the world’s major religions in your daily life.

THE AUTHOR

Roger graduated from Australia’s Queensland University and has degrees in psychology, physiology, neuroscience and medicine. In the present, he is a trusted professor in University of California at Irvine in the departments of Psychiatry, Philosophy, and Anthropology, as well as in the Religious Studies Program. With his experiences and expertise, Roger has already come up with several inspiring books and has a collaboration of podcast series with John Dupuy.

 


You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and inviting you to listen to our latest podcast episode number 931 with the author Roger Walsh about his book entitled Essential Spirituality: The Seven Central Practices to Awaken Heart in Mind. Roger also has a new podcast out and titled Deep Transformation podcast. And I encourage everybody to go there. This podcast is brought to you by Steven s. Hoffman, author of a new book entitled, The Five Forces that change everything, how technology is shaping our future. If you want to know more about Steven s Hoffman, his programs, events and new book, please visit his website, www founder space.com. That's www fo und ERSS PAC e.com. And now for our featured podcast please listen to my engaging interview with Roger Walsh about his book entitled essential spirituality the seven central practices to awaken heart and mind. And also don't forget to take a listen to his new podcast entitled deep transformation podcast. Happy listening. Welcome back inside personal growth, this is Greg Voisen and host of inside personal growth. And joining me from Mill Valley is Roger Walsh. And Roger is a returning guest. He was on the show I say many moons ago. And the reason I say that is he was speaking about his book on the Course in Miracles that he had authored. Roger, Good day to you how you doing,

Roger Walsh
Greg? Hello, thank you so much for the chance to dialogue with you again, what a delight.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's always a pleasure speaking with you because it centers me and I hope it centers all the rest of my audience as well. Today we're going to be talking about two things. The first one I want to mention and then we'll put a link into our blog for that is a new podcast that Roger does called deep transformation podcast and that's deep tranformation dot com. And there you will learn more about Roger. And his partner John to pray is to pray, deplete, deplete nice Frenchmen. We have an Aussie and a Frenchman. So they are doing a podcast together now. And I do want to encourage my listeners to go to that deep transformation tagline, self society's spirit. Roger, let me tell my guests who are listening a little bit about you. And this you will find up at the deep transformation website. Rogers day jobs include being a University of California professor, and that's at UC Irvine in psychiatry, philosophy, anthropology and religious studies as well as the writer and researchers who work his work has been received over 20 national and international awards. He is also a meditation student, teacher and researcher, a Tibetan Buddhist Lama, and was formerly a circus acrobat. I didn't know that. And a world record high diver and spectacularly unsuccessful standup comedian. Well, you've had a lot of different things that you've done in your career.

Roger Walsh
Roger, a lot of incarnations in this lifetime.

Greg Voisen
So it but it's a pleasure having you back on again to be with myself and the guests. We really did enjoy that last podcast and it's been way too long ago. But we're going to be speaking not about just the podcast show that he does. But a book that he wrote quite some time ago. We're actually saying this book was in 1999. But as I say here, the spirituality and the wisdom that comes from that it's timeless. So there is no you know, you don't have to worry about these books what year they were done, you can pick them up almost any year anytime and read them so we're gonna put a link to this book to Rogers book on Amazon because I've formulated my questions for Roger as that and the dialogue for this. You know, Roger, even though it is 1999 Long time ago that He wrote that. And I said, the good news for listeners is that the book is about ageless wisdom. And it never dates itself. None of the spiritual material usually does. Why did you choose to write the book? And what do you hope the reader is going to gain insight into a result of reading? And I think more importantly, practicing what you speak about to awaken the heart. There is so much I mean, it's very rich, the whole book.

Roger Walsh
Well, thank you very much, Greg. And there are two questions. Now why did I write up what am I hoping for, for readers, and the Caber write it out of my own direct spiritual quest I was, I was a hardcore materialist. I was a scientist and an MD, PhD, etc. I worship at the altar of science. And it when it came to California, it was a great shock, to gradually be exposed to alternative ways of thinking, to contemplative traditions to psychological growth work. And I dove very deeply into those and tried to make sense of them and found them very rich and very valuable. But then I became then I started to look at well, here are all these contemplative traditions, meditation, yoga, Mantra, recitation, etc. I'm doing um, they seem to be working, but how could they possibly be if they're relics of primitive thinking, as I assumed. And there was literally one moment as I was walking across the living room for when I realized that behind the conventional religious institutions with their myths, and their dogmas and their rituals, were much less well known esoteric, contemplative disciplines for training the heart and mind to cultivate the same qualities and virtues that the founders and saints and sages of each tradition have realized. And I realized there was a, we could almost call it a contemplative technology, they all became really fascinated, well, we are living in this extraordinary time, it's very, it's very easy for us to infer in the United States, and particularly for those of us in California to forget what a rare time this is, when we can, we have access for the first time in human history, to all the world's religions and spiritual traditions and philosophies. And to forget that for most of human history, if you studied another religion, or another meditative meditation practice, you could end up in a funeral pyre a crucifix. So, I became intrigued. Well, what do these have in common? And I kept asking myself, well, okay, what are the greatest minds in human history said, other qualities of heart and mind that we need to develop in order to live as fully unwell and beneficially as possible? And what do they say about how to do it. And over time, I've gradually began to see that see the different commonalities across cultures and traditions and wisdom traditions. And the first clue was given to me by Rand us, the great former Harvard professor who became rom Das, and was a pioneer for many of us in spirituality. And he said, well, all these traditions have in common, they have an ethical training, and they cultivate wisdom, and, and service. And it's no wisdom, wisdom, wisdom, ethics. Anyway, three things. And that kind of resonated for me. And then gradually over the years, I began to realize, well, actually there are more. For example, every contemplative tradition emphasizes the importance of emotional transformation. We have to relinquish anger, jealousy, fear, to make room for love and compassion and joy. And the power that he is attentional training the capacity to develop a stable, calm, clear mind. You need that in order to be able to do these practices. They emphasize perceptual clarity, seeing things as they really are disentangling ourselves from our delusions and illusions so we can really see clearly and they and they emphasize, emphasize the color, shifting our motivation, from more egocentric to world centric from being compelled and then controlled by our cravings and fears, to being free to move towards self actualization towards self transcendence, and finally towards selfless service. So great. Fell together. So that's the end of my

Greg Voisen
Wow, that is that is the essence of the book for certain. And you know, today as I was out, it's a we're we're taping this show on Good Friday. And I was asking my wife for About Good Friday, and we were talking about Jesus Christ. And then we were talking about the resurrection. And it was really about removing fear, because there wasn't, there is no death. And, you know, the message is really about that, you know, and I found it fascinating that you and I reconnect on a day where many Christians are thinking about the resurrection, the ability to become new again. And at that time, reincarnation, well talked about wasn't only you know, the state of the day, right. But yet all these other religions did have that. And you speak about two crucial terms. And we talked about this when we did the pre interview. I said, I'm not super religious, I'm spiritual. What, in your estimation, is the difference between spirituality and religion?

Roger Walsh
Okay, well, those are two, two of the most widely used terms in our worlds. And of course, different people have their own spin. But the way I think of it is that spirituality is concerned with direct experience and the practices which cultivate it. Religion is the term is more often associated with the organization's and beliefs, and general practices that flow out of an individual or groups experience and become crystallized into its institutional forms, and discipline. So that's the way I differentiate them.

Greg Voisen
And that's good, because, you know, some people, you hear them say, I'm religious, you'll hear other people say, I'm spiritual. And I think, you know, your definition helps to see the outward expression, versus when I think of religion. I've said this many times, I think it was Ken Wilber that was on the show. And he wrote a book about religion, that kind of the fall of religion. And this has been a while ago. But the statement I've made many times, is religions have done more to divide society and individuals than they have to unite. This is a great voice and comment. But spirituality has done more to bring people together, in, in my humble opinion, because there's been so much strife and so much fighting from a religious standpoint. And I think that's a challenge. You want to comment on that? Because to me, I know it's not one of our questions, and it doesn't have to be but the reality is, is that fundamentally, to me, it just seems so challenging. That you're, you're, whether it's Judaism, or Mormonism, or Catholicism, or whatever ism it is, it has been a challenge to control people to almost control them and to control their minds. And I don't mean that negatively. I think there's a lot that comes out of that. But I'd love to get your take on it. Because look, you're somebody who has been studying this most of your life.

Roger Walsh
Well as a few. All right, I'll take I'll take a stab. Well, I think you're pointing towards something very important, tragically important break. And if we go back to the distinction between spirituality and religion is spirituality, emphasizing direct experience, religion, emphasizing interpretation and dogma, institutionalization. And particularly belief, then I think what you're saying becomes understandable. People don't, don't fight so much over their direct experience. It's always the interpretations that become the source of source of, of argumentation. And with religions, we have very set beliefs, and not just any beliefs, they are the big picture beliefs, our understanding of the cosmos and God and our human nature and how we relate to the universe and God etc. So these are what are called our worldviews our biggest encompassing understanding of ourselves in the universe and, and everything that is, and when, when you when, so our very identity is grounded in and in some ways determined by that kind of will our worldviews and when you are in that belief system, and the thing that's really important to know is When you don't share someone's belief system, you tend to weaken it. And since everyone identifies with their belief system that's literally experienced as a death threat. And so people have go to war, and more people have perhaps, killed and died over, for example, the phrase, no one comes to the Father, but by Me, then no state will in human history, right. And yet here was a man clearly devoted to love and compassion.

Greg Voisen
Totally. And I think that's a good summation of that. And it is, as they asked somebody a Ukrainian the other day, on a talk show, forget him. But they were asking, they were talking to some Ukrainians. And the man said, He's the antichrist that Putin is the Antichrist. You know, Hitler was the Antichrist. When you look at love and compassion, you're just wondering where it is, and it doesn't exist. And that is just my commentary as well again, but I would I would agree with the comments made. You know, you mentioned that the book, essential spirituality is a result of 23 years of research in the practice of the world spiritual disciplines. But before then, you, Roger Walsh, were agnostic, you had no belief, and in the value or validation of religion of any kind, what are the seven perennial practices that you really speak about? And want people to understand as a result of reading this book? Because they think they're, they're like the foundation? They're there fundamental?

Roger Walsh
Yeah. Greg, and, and as you asked in the previous question, as I pointed towards this, these were the practices that I found that the great sages across cultures, and, and traditions and centuries AD emphasized as the as the most important practices we can do. And so again, a foundational is a foundation in ethics, that, that we cannot settle our minds and develop love and compassion and clarity and wisdom. If our minds are filled with hatred and jealousy, and we're lying and stealing from people. So ethical living is foundational. Then there's a shift in motivation, really releasing egocentric motivation and growing in motivation, which is more generous, which is more self actualizing, self transcending, less compulsively driven, and there's emotional transformation, reducing anger, fear, jealousy, cultivating love, compassion, joy, etc. And then there's perceptual clarification, really kind of looking, developing a sensitivity of perception, such as advanced meditators have been found to do with research, seeing very sensitive, increasingly sensitively and clearly. Then there's the cultivation of wisdom, seeing deeply into life, and seeing how best to respond to life. And finally, there's the there's the practice of selfless service, the recognition that we practice, not for ourselves alone, but in order to become more effective instruments of service services, both a means to awakening and an expression.

Greg Voisen
Well, you rattle those off pretty quick. And I think my listeners will get it. But the most important thing is, is that we'll put a link for the book, because he does have a list of them in the book. And then he goes through and articulates them further. And I think that that's that these are, where, where you were coming from with each one of those and how you, boom, boom, boom, boom, went right down the list. It's really important, because those are, those are practices. In other words, it's a way that we can enrich and enrich our lives, become more loving, become more compassionate, become more understanding. Now, you talked about motivation. You also talked about cravings in the book. And somebody texted me and this is an off the wall, a very interesting article this morning. And it's a gal that's been on my show, April rent rhynie, who lost both of her parents in a car accident at the age of 20. And she wrote a really interesting book called Flux, the eight superpowers to thrive in constant change. And the article, Roger was about running from one self that end today. Is world we have this sense that we're, we're running we're always on now and that kind of contemplative practices, Buddhist practices, Eastern philosophy, it's about slowing down and, and meditating and being more intentional and being more mindful. If you were to comment about the current state of our world as you see it, Roger Walsh sees it from your perspective, what advice might you give people who find themselves running from themselves?

Roger Walsh
Yeah, gosh, there's so much in what you said Greg and, and the running both from ourselves and woods, the toys and trinkets that the world offers Correct? Materialism. Yeah. So there's both running from and are running towards and both of them are crucially important and have a can easily have a compulsive quality. So we run from that which were unwilling to look at. Yet it's true, it's critically important to know to finally important things about the way the mind works. One is, whatever you're unwilling to experience in yourself, whatever you're unwilling to experience in the mind, sticks around until you are willing to experience it. First Principle. Second one, whatever you're unwilling to experience runs your life. Now, those are two very, very powerful things. So if we running, running and keeping very busy and tranquilizing ourselves with trivia, in order to avoid facing our inner experience, we are we are going to be fleeing that indefinitely, because it will stay there until we look at it. But the good news is that when we start to start to open to our experience, and that within us which we have feared, we find that awareness in and of itself is curative. But when our emotional difficulties, our traumas, our intense emotions, the things we're fearful and shameful about when they're brought into the healing light of awareness, T release and unravel. And their energy becomes freely available to us. So they offer us gifts, even as after we've been willing to look at. So that's one thing I would say about

Greg Voisen
one of those is, you know, when you talk about cravings, and you spoke with me in the pre interview, that some research you were doing that it again, in the eastern philosophy, it's the attachment to the attachment to something we all know, I mean, logically, we're not taking any of our possessions with us. You know, I mean, a lot of people probably want to be buried with their Tesla.

But it didn't get to happen. So speak with, speak with us, if

Greg Voisen
You would, about the non attachment and how that can help people overcome this challenge.

Roger Walsh
Yeah, and, of course, you mentioned Eastern philosophies and this idea of the importance of attachment or craving as most succinctly articulated in Buddhism, Buddhism, where it's the second of the four noble truths, the first noble truth being the, you know, in an Anon, like any unenlightened life, there is necessarily suffering. And the second noble truth gives a diagnosis, the cause of that suffering is craving. And the third noble truth gives the treat it gives the treatment or antidote, it's like the way out of suffering to relief. So relief suffering is to release craving. And the fourth Noble Truth is a recipe for how to do that eight ways of doing that. And so, the, the idea is that craving is, and its mirror image, which is aversion or fear or anger, craving tries to grasp something, it says, I must have this in order to be happy. It's mirror image Version says, I must not have that in order to be happy. And of course, there can be no peace and equanimity as long as we're slave to those tweets, those tweeting drives. So, the, the idea behind many traditions, understanding of craving is that this is a very powerful, dynamic, built into our human nature. And yet it is possible to release and grow beyond it and come to a life of, of equity, more group far greater peace and equanimity. Ready, bye gradually unraveling this and the unraveling exercises can be, for example craving, simply to be aware of it to notice how we feel. And we notice we actually don't feel so good when we're craving. So just that recognition are willing to actually experience it. This gets back to your previous point, Craig, about fleeing from ourselves, one of the things we flee from is directly experiencing what it's like to crave. As long as we don't directly experience it, we don't realize how destructive it isn't gonna keep feeding it. So that's just one, beginning weigh in.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, I told you that I had read the introduction to a book, on psychedelics that you had written. And you’ve obviously done a lot of research. And, you know, one of the things I look at is the subconscious mind and the conscious mind. And this is an open ended question for you. I currently see a gentleman by the name of Dr. Steve Berman, be er, ma n. And Steve was an emergency room doctor for 20 years, but uses hypnosis to help his patients overcome the challenges that they're dealing with in the emergency room, and if they're going under surgery. So I've been hypnotized many times by Steve, and to actually realize how strong the subconscious mind is. Now, there's many ways to get at this but because this mammalian brain of ours always wants to default back to certain ways in which we do it. I'm, I'm asking you this question and I know this roundabout, but between all these practices meditation and yoga, and I T P, which George Leonard used and psychedelics, and all of this with the intent being of everything we talk at, to slow down, observe and release something that we constantly keep defaulting back to a craving, okay, whatever that might be. Whether we have a sexual Craver, gambling addiction or a spending addiction, whatever it might be, what would you say? And what have you found in all the research you've done? That seems to have or could have a sustainable effect on enhancing unhinging that what seems to be just such a strong, powerful kind of way in which we work?

Roger Walsh
Yeah, well, yes, let's acknowledge first off that the craving is incredibly powerful, and it's part of our survival. Machinery, and it's possible to attenuate it and even for advanced people to release it. You know, you're pointing to let me generalize the question, Greg, because you pointed out something very important, what are what are the kind of most strategic practices we can do for working with a variety of issues, and in others, I spent a lot of years studying and reflecting and researching and before I wrote that book, essential spirituality, the seven central practices. And as I looked across the world's contemplative traditions, and what the world's wisest people have said, about how to come to the fullness of our potential as human beings. The thing that surprised me most was that every single tradition said that for every single one of these seven qualities and virtues of heart and mind, they all said, if you want to develop these qualities, hang out with people who have every one of them agreed that the power of relationship and community was so powerful, that if we hung out with people who have these virtues with people who are loving, who are generous, or ethical, who are not driven by craving, we pick these up by osmosis because and we know this now from contemporary neuroscience, says there's a whole field of so called social neuroscience. We are built neurologically like tuning forks, we resonate with one another. And not only not only ways of being and habits, but also states of mind states of consciousness are transmitted. And wisdom traditions have known this for millennia. They talk about the power of transmission from a teacher. It's not just teachers, it's a friend, it's our relatives, it's the people we hang out with. There's a saying, now in the contemporary research community, watch out who you hang out with, because you become like them and look like them. We even look begin to look like the people we hang out with. Because if our friends cousin day, in some ways, we probably will. And if we hang out with people who are happy, our faces, muscles will grow. So as we tend to smile more, I mean, the power of community and relationship is extraordinarily powerful in these contemplative traditions, and the sages recognized the hundreds and 1000s of years ago, and so forth.

Greg Voisen
They're going to interrupt but you just came back from a month long meditation retreat in community. And, you know, COVID, has done much to disrupt the ability to have us do these things. But I remember when I was with Joel and Michelle Levy on the orcas islands, meditating that the community that was formed was so strong, and the elixir that gets created as a result of the practices. Is, is a I mean, if you want to talk about a craving, it's a it's a huge craving, but a craving for peace, love, tranquility, and so on. And it is it because once you get there, it's like, you can't have enough. And then when you come back, in my case to the mainland on the boat, and you see what's happening, you go, oh, my God, I live in this. You know, you're saying, well, which is the real world, right? It's kind of like, people say, well, you're back in the real world. And they go, well, no, maybe the orcas islands in the meditation retreat was the real world. But if you talk to anybody that goes on a meditation retreat, afterwards, the kind of the shock of just coming back out of it, again, is interesting. Any comment on that? Because I've talked to so many people that have had the same experience, they say, oh, my gosh, that was wonderful for a week or two weeks, or a month or whatever. And then I'm back here again. And I see the rat and the hamster wheel.

Roger Walsh
Well, I think you said it beautifully. Greg, we become immersed in our law in our lives. We've become hypnotized, by the by the conventional world. And it's understanding we become hit by everything from advertising to the news. And we become habituated, we just assume this is the way it is. We go into a retreat. We detox effectively, psychological spiritual detox, we come back we realize, Oh, my goodness, this is what I and we have been lost into. And so we are able to see it with fresh, more perceptive, clearer, quieter, calmer eyes.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. Well, your perception certainly changes. And at one point in the book, you said, that's the best thing that could happen is your awareness and perception about it changes. And you said, you state that to know happiness and bliss, and we need to change our motivations. And always question for you about the word motivation, versus inspiration. You know, I've had many debates with people about that extrinsic intrinsic, will, maybe we can talk about that here. This means reducing cravings for those things that we do not bring true, or do not bring true happiness, and redirecting desires. To those that do. That's really key if I was going to underline anything, redirecting to those that do. That's easier said than done. What practices can help us change those motives in your estimation, because this is a habitual habit. We've got to change a habit, we've got to change, almost like a reflex. And reflex is just like, boop. But you know, it's like Pavlov's dog ring the bell thing. Here we go.

Roger Walsh
Yeah, I'm so glad you've emphasized several times, Greg, that these are all practices. They're not something for the most part, we just make a decision about although making decision can be very important and foundational for further change. But yes, these are practices. So for redirecting motivation. There's a series and first, the first thing comes with, with exposure to different ideas about what really matters in life, because we aren't drawn to what really matters. And so the first step is just knowing there are paths, other possibilities to see people dedicating their lives to, for example, learning and growth and becoming clear and waking up and serving. So first off being exposed to different ideas. Second, coming back to that theme again, hanging out with people who have those have those different motives? Third, exactly what you mentioned, beginning to turn attention in and look for our own inspiration, not what other people tell us, not what the advertisers tell us, we should design. But what really calls us what inspires us what energizes, empowers, and directs us. So we come then to respond to our own calling. And that's a very, very crucial shift.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, that is a crucial shift. And we you have a part in the book that you speak about, you know, when you're not following that, you can have a lot of anxiety and you can have a lot of anger. And you can have a lot of frustration. And in your chapter on the gift of love, you speak that emotions rule our lives that the feelings we repeatedly invite into our minds eventually seduce and dominate our minds. You didn't state that one emotion has long been praised as supreme, by the great religions. And that is love. What do you recommend to access love in our lives? And does this start with a big dose of self love?

Roger Walsh
Yeah, two important questions, then how to cultivate love, and sec. Second is start with self love and, and let's just step back for a moment to talk about the very nature of love because our culture's understanding of love is very constricted and limited. And it really helps. The first step is to have a larger vision of possibility of what life can be, for the most part of culture is promulgated the Hollywood myth that love can happen if you with the right person and looks the right way or says the right things, then you can feel love. So it kind of holds our culture holds our viewers love that kind of, you can have under the right circumstances with the right person, and it kind of sends on you're kind of like an attack of IP. And you controlled by it, and you can't stop thinking about the person who breakout and sweats you can't sleep. That's not that's a description of heroin withdrawal. This is a description of addiction, not a pure, of, of have, what the Christians would call a god pay the overflowing love for all creation, all people. So first off, we need to recognize there are different kinds of love. There's a love which is based in craving, which is what our culture assumes a little love can be, there's love, which can be is the love we see between, for example, relatives or parents, for children. That's a very generous giving love. There's a love between romantic partners, which at its best can be the flowing of Eros, not grasping after, and possessing, but rather overflowing Eros, that is not just not only sexual, certainly sexual, but more than that, inspiring, invigorating for life. And finally, there's what the Christians called a god pay or unconditional love, which is a love that knows no boundaries or limitations encompasses all people and even all life. So having that vision is a first step. And then there are individual practices we can work with which we could go into if you'd like.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think that you know, what's important here for I would think for my listeners, I feel like I know him a little better. The opposite of love is fear. And much has been written about fear and anger and the long term effects to our emotions and our physical health. You’ve outlined 11 exercises in chapter 12 to reduce fear and anger, what are some of those exercises, not all of them because we don't have time, and that can help our listeners find themselves and being less fearful and less angry. You know, because I my sense is, you know, all you got to do is drive down the road anymore and get cut off one more time. And you can see that, you know, there's a lot of frustration and anger or someone that can't wait in line for you know, the next checkout person. I There are times I sense myself that way and I'm like, why can't I stay in this peaceful state and just wait you know, I get it because we are enticed about what's the next thing that we have to do? And so when to do is gets big. It starts to possess us and it's really not about

Roger Walsh
Yeah, exactly. And, again, we could go down many roads here, Greg, you touched on luck. But if we think of, for example, fear. Fear is, you know, it's an emotion which runs our lives. To varying extents, it's one of the things that feelings are most uncomfortable, we tend to avoid. And yet, one of the things that, again, is important to know is when we avoid being or when we avoid directly experiencing our fear, it remains there and it tends to grow and attends to run our lives. So one of the things that really valuable know about fear is if we turn attention to it actually explored, what does this actually feel like? We find that as we explored it, but through the healing power of awareness, it begins to diminish and release. And in fact, one of the standard psychotherapeutic treatments for fear is simply to have people remain in a situation that's fearful for them for a period of several minutes, because that's usually what happens. As soon as we possibly experience fear, we try to get out of that situation. But if we stay there, if we end if we just experience the fear, that only takes literally a couple of minutes for us to realize, oh, it's beginning to decrease, if we don't run from it, if we run from it, we exacerbate it. If we stay with a bit diminishes, that's a crucial life lesson.

Greg Voisen
That is, that is really great wisdom. You know, I know, one of the practices is like a tonglen meditation where you're doing healing work for the rest of the world. And you know, when I've done that, I can really feel it in your body feels it. And then to breathe it back out again. I think that that's, I think I'm kind of wrapping this up, Roger, what I'd like you to do, because there's the book, which we're going to put a link to. And there's a podcast, which Roger has deep transformation, which we're going to put a link to. But I'd like to wrap this up with, you know, your essentials of spirituality will certainly awaken the heart of all readers that commit to your practices. And I'm going to underscore, commit to the practices. This isn't a book you just read. This is a book you contemplate this is a book that you practice you work on, there's work you have to do, if you were to leave the listeners with three takeaways, that they could really make an impact. Now, you know, as rom das says, I have this. Here, I'll show you, I also have a clock. And I have a now clock, which has no hands on it. It's just on the wall and it has a an ohm signal that goes back and forth. What would they be? And why do you believe they're so important to changing their lives, just three really great takeaways that they can apply?

Roger Walsh
Okay, well, I would again, go back to something we talked about before, because it's so important, so many sages agreed with this. Be careful who you who you choose to hang out with. Choose your friends and companions wisely, and make and ideally, see if they embody the qualities you would like to have and strengthen yourself. That's number one, an analogy of that, be very careful about what you put into your mind, for example, with television, because what we put into our minds is even more important than what we put into our bodies. Second principle, and there are going to be two related principle here ethics. Ethics is crucial, the psychological and spiritual well being and growth. And in our culture, we tend to tend to think of ethics as kind of a sacrifice or Okay, I'll do what I should do. What we don't appreciate, is an ethics is living ethically, is a way of enhancing our well being and the well being of everyone we interact with. And the third is generosity and service. Our culture tends to think of generosity and service as self sacrifice. It's not its enlightened self interest, when we really begin to experience what it's like to give. We realize that we when we give to others, we cultivate feelings such as generosity and joy and love, and they grow in us. And so generosity is not self sacrifice. It's enlightened self interest. Well,

Greg Voisen
Thank you for giving me and our listeners, a wonderful 4550 minute talk and in an opportunity to glean some of your practices out of essential spirituality, again, we've been on with Roger Walsh from Mill Valley, California. And you're going to want to go to his podcast show. And we will put a link to that podcast show, but it's called deep transformation podcasts. Roger, Namaste to you. Thank you for being on. Thank you for spending some time with me.

Roger Walsh
Greg, thank you very much for this opportunity. And thank you for all you do for all of us.

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If you are looking for a comprehensive guide to wellness then you might want to check out “Inner Wealth: How Wellness Heals, Nurtures, and Optimizes Ultra-Successful People” by author Julie Wald.  In my recent interview with Julie, we speak about framework for integrating the most impactful wellness practices into your life in a way that feels natural and doable for your busy schedule.

Julie is all you need to motivate, encourage, guide and support you on your wellness journey.  If you want to learn more about the practices of meditation please click here to be directed to Julies’s website.  Enjoy this great interview with author Julie Wald.

Thanks for listening!

THE BOOK

With Inner Wealth, that’s what Julie Wald is giving you: a framework for integrating the most impactful wellness practices into your life in a way that feels natural and doable for your busy schedule. Built around the four pillars of wellness—movement, stillness, touch, and nourishment—this book will inspire and enable you to create a self-care plan that meets your needs. This is not a formula or a prescription; it’s a recipe, and you can decide how much of each ingredient you want to add to live a happy, healthy life that is reflective of who you are.

THE AUTHOR

A wellness practitioner for over 25 years Julie Wald, is the Founder, CEO and Chief Wellness Officer at Namaste Wellness. Julie is also the bestselling author of Inner Wealth: How Wellness Heals, Nurtures and Optimizes Ultra-Successful People, released in March of 2020. She holds a master’s degree in Social Work from New York University and began her career in 1995 as a clinical social worker treating adults, children and adolescents in mental health and healthcare settings. In the process of building her impressive mental health practice, Julie also pursued her personal wellness objectives and in doing so became a Certified Yoga Instructor, Meditation Teacher, Thai Bodyworker and Reiki Master. ​

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from New York is Julie Wald. And Julie has a new book out called Inner Wealth. And the subtitle is How Wellness Heals, Nurtures and Pptimizes Ultra Successful People. Well, good day to you. How are you doing? They're in New York, Julie. And this was a very interesting book. Obviously, you profiling a lot of your clients and their challenges, and how you approached the treatment with them. And then putting this book together, I found it fundamentally very instrumental and actually giving me some great advice as well. So I'm really interested to get into this interview and talk about it further. So you're doing great.

Julie Wald
I am doing well. It's so great to be here, Greg. And thank you for those kind words about the book and really excited to dig into this conversation.

Greg Voisen
Well, great, great. Now, I'm going to tell the listeners that from your website, and for those who are out there listening and you want to know more about Julie, go to Julie Wald and it's www Namaste wellness.com that's one place. You can also find her at Julie Wald wellness.com. That's an another place and she's a wellness practitioner for over 25 years. And the founder and the chief wellness officer at namaste wellness. Julie is also the bestselling author of this book, inner wealth, how wellness heals, nurtures and optimizes ultra-successful people, which was released in March of 2020. She holds a master's degree in social work from New York University and began her career in 95. As a clinical social worker treating adults’ children and adolescents in mental health and healthcare settings. In the process of building are impressive mental health pressing practice, Julie also pursued her personal wellness objectives and in doing so, became a certified yoga instructor, meditation teacher, Thai body worker and Reiki master. So she is well qualified to speak with us about what we're going to be talking about. And, Julie, if you would tell our listeners a little about yourself, I gave him you know, there's, there's more behind your story than just what was on that bio about how you got, where you are. And why this journey toward writing this book, which profiles so many of your clients, their ailments, their stresses their conditions, and at the same time, incorporates into it, how you would approach that with a client, which is I think, is a great way for people to learn.

Julie Wald
Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you so much. So, so yes, my journey has been has been a really interesting one. And, you know, I have had the opportunity to work with some really extraordinary human beings and so many different ways throughout the course of of my career and have learned really, both from my own experiences and my own journey, as well as the work that I've done with with these people. At the at the very beginning of my career when I was a clinical social worker, before I really became so deeply embedded in the wellness and self-care space, I really actually worked with with some of the most disenfranchised people in the country, in New York City. And I learned a lot about the human condition there. I also learned a lot about myself, and some of the things that were most challenging for me, in that chapter of my career, and quite frankly, was handling a lot of my own stress, which is what led me to become so deeply immersed in the World of Wellness, how do I take care of myself? How do I practice self-help, um, you know, as I am in this helping profession, at the time, I was working with everything from, you know, teenagers who were who were suicidal to adults who are coping with, you know, issues of trauma and addiction and poverty. And, you know, it was a lot to hold. And I had to figure out how to get strong enough and have my own resilience toolkit to manage, manage showing up as a professional and moving the needle forward each and every day. And that's when I really dove so deeply into meditation practice and yoga practice and understanding the value of all of these different types of modalities and how they could support my own mental health and well being I'm in that in that helping profession as my, as my own dad used to say, when I was a kid, it's not the weight of the pack on your back, but the strength of the back that carries the pack. And so it was sort of like, my instinct at that point was not to run away from the challenges that I was facing, but to figure out how to get stronger. Interestingly, that led me to a place where I became deeply interested in involved in in these different more Eastern modalities and became trained and traveled the world and develop these sort of secondary specialties to my work as a clinical social worker. And at that point, I developed a bit of a side hustle, I was living in New York City, and I, you know, started working with some of the most high performing professionals in the world, this was just post 911. So this goes way back. And it was, you know, a time when particularly people in finance, but people certainly all over New York, and all over the country were, we're in a bit of crisis after the trauma of this event. And there was an opening, there was a window opened, where people became more open to some of these integrative practices to make their own back stronger, just like I had to make my back stronger during those challenging times. And again, that's when I started working with some high performers, and learning what, what their challenges were and supporting them much as I had supported myself, in figuring out how to cultivate well-being build resilience, find greater balance in their lives.

Greg Voisen
When you talk about that juxtaposition of working with just impoverished people and people with challenges, and the energy that you have to hold, but at the same time, the energy that somebody who is on the opposite side of the coin brings into the room, who's a high producer, maximum stress, all the kinds of things that you've profiled by a lot of people that they came to you trying to find in inner way trying to find a more peaceful way. And I think with that, I think self-care is one of the biggest areas in at least it's one you address. And I think it's important. Because in both cases, whether it's the very wealthy who are stressed, or the people who are a little more impoverished, are having mental health issues, are dealing with self-care. And it begins with the step into power, cultivating compassion relationship with others, and make the rules for our own life, right? Because a lot of times, people are letting outsiders control them. They're trying to look better in somebody else's eyes. It isn't exactly what maybe they want. But it's something that somebody else has wanted in their subconscious. They haven't figured out how to live it. How would you advise our listeners about beginning with self-care? And when they could, like, just be enough for themselves? And say, It's okay. Because this is a huge challenge in our society today.

Julie Wald
Absolutely, you know, I think first and foremost, it's about taking some inventory, being conscious of where we are with regard to our self-care, and where some of our areas are opportunities for improvement. And we like to use or I like to use what we call at my company, which, you know, for 25 years, we were namaste wellness, actually, just literally, super recently since our last conversation we've changed our name to Golden, but that's for another conversation. All the URLs that you mentioned at the beginning still lead you to all the right places. But what we do at Golden is looking at the four pillars, which are movement, stillness, connection, and nourishment. These are the basic fundamentals that help human beings thrive and believe it or not, you know, so often people think that they're taking care of themselves because they're going on their peloton for an hour a day, which is wonderful, or, you know, because they're eating tons of kale and avocados or whatever else they're eating, you know, however, there's blind spots, either the connection in their life is less than fulfilling or they aren't finding enough time to slow down to restore to recover. That's their stillness. And what we know is that, you know, if you've ever taken care of a baby, you know that A baby needs plenty of tummy time, that's their movement, they need plenty of sleep, that's their stillness, they need to be held skin to skin they need to be taught to, that's their connection. And they need to be nourished with healthy whole foods. And if all of those things are happening, barring any other major developmental or physical illnesses or delays, the baby will thrive. And us as grown-ups are really just big babies. And so often, we think we can get away with not sleeping or not eating a certain way or, you know, filling up on junk food connection, like just social media type of connection, that we don't realize why we're so cranky, just like a baby would be angry, I then angry.

Greg Voisen
It's just the nurturing of our own soul. And I think frequently, you know, the ego, and, you know, the subconscious and conscious mind, have to learn to live in alignment. And the challenge there is one is there to protect us and the other is there to help us have what we want in life. And I think that's always a challenge. And you know, you told a great story about one of your clients, Michael Copeland, who was realizing that he was not at Lambertus age, I think he was in his 50s. And yet, here's this guy that was doing marathons triathlons, you know, he was very active. And he wanted to have more fun as well, because it's one thing, it's, this is what we're talking about here. It's one thing to be great physically fit, get on your peloton, do what you're going to do. But are you having fun doing what you're doing? And so you brought to him other ways to move? Obviously Yoga, you know, you we can get into a lot of these things. But how did you help Michael realize his optimal wife, and do embrace other ways of being? Okay with Michael, instead of just kind of, you know, beating himself up physically?

Julie Wald
Yeah, that's a great, great question. And, you know, I think one of the things you touched on just early in that question was, was sort of access to joy, right, that, that this concept of people checking a lot of boxes, and, you know, their nervous systems being used to kind of operating in a certain way, where, you know, oftentimes it's doo doo, doo, doo, doo, go, go, go, go go achieve, achieve, achieve. And, you know, it's, it's checking things off the list, it's kind of, you know, staying on that same exact track that they've been on for many, many, many, many years. And so often, when I work with people like Michael and other clients, even just right now, it's this question comes up is that, you know, where what is really happiness? What is what is joy, actually, how, you know, in these are, these are some people that if you look at their lives from the outside, and you think, wow, they've really got it all going on there, you know, they're there, they must be the happiest person in the world based on what they've achieved and what they have and how they look. And what you realize is, is that, you know, that ability to access joy comes from a lot of different places, but one of those places is actually sort of learning to recognize some of the patterns that are on autopilot and being willing to put ourselves in new situations to develop a curiosity about, you know, how would it feel if I actually skipped a day of running this week and did something slower like yoga or breathing instead or, you know, decided that you know, I was going to I was going to, to basically give myself permission to try things a different way and see what the ripple effect might be of that. But in order to even get there, I think it's first about supporting people in gaining the awareness around the autopilot nature of how they're operating and where that tunnel vision or those are those blinders are happening, and really limiting their access to, to new experiences to experience a fuller holer expression of themselves.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, they just need to know that it's accessible. And you know, I think once they try it, they find so much more peace in it. So I'm just going to say, you know, like yoga or just walking, walking in the woods, you know, or walking along the beach or doing things like that, because you talked about reflection, you know, and Julian mentioned this question because I had the pleasure and honor to sit in George Leonard's living room and do an interview with him. And he and Michael Murphy are the founders of epsilon. And along with Michael Murphy, in Big Sur, George founded something called i t p, which stands for integral transformative practice. And you may or may not have heard of this, maybe you have. But it was a practice of Aikido yoga, movement, meditation, and meditation. Right. And I was like, I attended a class. And they were only 4550 minutes, I think it was, but it was the combination of the movement of the body, the yoga, the meditation, which really shifted my stance, and it seems to me a few, you have a similar kind of practice for clients? And could you comment on the benefits of putting all of these practices kind of together? whatever they, whatever they are, that you do? Because I noticed from the book, that it is this, I want to call smarters BORG of opportunities, right? Maybe, maybe that's a bad way to put it. But that's the way it seems to me.

Julie Wald
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think, um, but I think it's really and I think the reason it's a swarm sport is because it's about meeting people where they are, and I don't actually believe in sort of a one size fits all formula for wellbeing, I think different expressions of the practice of different of a, basically a conscious, breath based movement practice, can resonate with different people at different times for different reasons. And so whether that, as you mentioned, is, you know, a really rigorous yoga asana practice, a physical practice, or whether that's a really quiet, still gentle, you know, Yin based or restorative practice, depending on where somebody's energy is out of alignment, it will really impact kind of what is going to be the best prescription yoga wise, for example, for them, right? Not one kind of yoga is best for all people, it really depends on what they need to cultivate, do they need to, you know, find more flexibility? And is that the emphasis on a physical level? Do they need to, you know, find more quiet, more stillness? And is that is that really where we need to prioritize, you know, the fruits of the practice. Of course, you know, breathing and mindfulness are sort of integrative aspects of yoga. And, again, kind of thinking about the four pillars, one of the amazing things about a yoga based practice is that it brings together almost all of the pillars, right, so you have movement, you have nourishment, which the breath in and of itself is the most sort of nourishing ingredient. It's what we need to nourish ourselves to stay alive, you have connection, because you're really connecting with yourself, and you have stillness because it's a focused, meditative practice. And so, you know, one of the things I love so much about practices that kind of fall into that general category is that they actually encompass all four pillars. And that's, that's a powerful thing. One other just quick thing I want to mention is that, you know, back to the beginning of our conversation, when I was talking about these, you know, disenfranchised New Yorkers who are struggling, and then working with these kind of ultra successful people. I was doing that at the same time. And one was more of a side hustle at the time. And one was kind of my main, my main job. And one of the things that I noticed, going back to that idea of the human condition is that actually, despite kind of the fancy apartments, or the clothes that people were wearing, their struggles were the same. And in many cases, there are solutions were also the same. And these prescriptive formulas like the one that ones that we're talking about, were beautiful fitting practices, regardless of who that person was in sort of that whole social stratosphere.
Greg Voisen
.It's interesting that you say that because, you know, from both sides of the spectrum, you saw similarities. And, you know, people out there might not think that and I and you had a story in the book, which I thought was really Interesting, you're working with an entrepreneur. His name was Joshua Gould. And who was struggling enormously with unplugging. And you said, unplugging. And this story is not uncommon in this always on world that we're living in today. It I see it, it's a dis ease. You know, it really is, what prescription would you give to our listeners like Joshua, who are listening right now, to unwind and reduce the stressors, because many people are so unconscious, of what's creating it, it just builds up during the day. And before they know it, they're angry at something or they're frustrated, or another email comes in, that they've got to deal with. It's not something they want to do, or they've got to go to a meeting or whatever it might be. Julie, it is there. So I'd love to see what your prescription might be for all of those listeners, not just Josh.

Julie Wald
Yes, well, I'm glad you mentioned unplugging. Because I think that finding time to disconnect from our digital lives is an incredibly important variable when it comes to self care. And when it comes to managing stress. And I think that's much easier said than done, because these devices are highly, highly addictive. And, you know, I don't think I think it's important that we actually don't blame ourselves for how hooked in we are, because they're literally designed to kind of capture our brains in this way. And, and, but what I do think is important is finding ways to be intentional, whether it's deciding to plug the phone in, you know, during dinner time, and afterwards, to create an evening that is, is less plugged into technology, but But that's really just the first step. It's, it's, um, then replacing that technology with other activities, kind of pulling from the four pillars, whether it's taking an evening walk with someone that we care about, or even something as simple as watching an amazing movie can be very nourishing can be very fulfilling. And so. But that constant interaction digitally, is very, very agitating to the stressed out mind to the already stressed out mind. And if we can give ourselves some recovery time, if we can give ourselves some downtime, then we're really able to reset, it's the other half of all of the doing of all of the talking and all of the engaging, is that spaciousness is that quiet time, whatever that looks like, for, for that person for you. It's really where can you find moments to, to refill your tank, and most likely those opportunities will come when you close your laptop, put down your phone, and do something that involves movement. True stillness, which is things like reading a book, scrolling, scrolling Instagram, from bed is not stillness, right? That's a very sort of activated place to be in the mind, it's actually really agitated. And so you know, reading an old fashioned book, taking a walk, all of these things can even taking a walk can beat stillness. So you know, in some ways,

Greg Voisen
well, I think frequently, we are doing beings, and we're doing less being than we are doing. And unfortunately, that is the disease because it has proliferate peripheral ated people's lives. And they don't even realize it. You know, because if you were to look today, at almost maybe anybody's phone, the number of apps that are on the phone, the actual numbers of apps that focus on to do list, you know, and I'm not going to name them, but there's hundreds of them. And it's not that we are going to eliminate that in our life. We're going to try and block time for that and block time for other things. And I think that's a really important thing to say, Hey, I know what I need to be productive, and I know when I can unplug. And I think for any busy executive who's really good at what they're doing, they're either doing time blocking, and they're saying, Hey, I'm taking the time to do this, and then I'm taking time for my yoga, and they're fitting it in the day, you know, and in your chat. You're on reflection, you speak about awareness of patterns. And you mentioned that earlier as well. And I think that's really important. Because if people realize there was a camera following them every day for 24 hours, the question I might have is do when we replayed it, would you like what you saw? Would you like what the camera captured, the things you did during the day. And these patterns, they create stress in our lives, and they can be done to shift our body's response, or I say what can be done to shift the body's response by using breathwork and slow mindful yoga to gain more balance, and why in your estimation is breathing so important to become aware, to shift to shift our awareness breathing, to shift our awareness?

Julie Wald
Absolutely. Breathing just forces us to slow down to land in the moment to land in our body to kind of get out of that autopilot mode, and turn the gaze in for just a moment and feel and experience where we are in time and space and emotion in any given any given moment. And, and I think that, that's when we have that moment of pause before we then continue on that, you know, hamster wheel of whatever it is that we are doing, or reacting to or overdoing. I think that that it's, it's that it's the other half, quite frankly, of all of the doing is the stopping and the breathing and the processing. And it's not, it's not that doing is bad. In fact, doing is great. We need to do things that's part of why, you know, we're put on this planet, but there is such thing as too much of a good thing. And well, let's

Greg Voisen
face it, very few of us are going to go to India and become a yogi and go into a cave and sit there for years and meditate. I'm talking years, many of them. That's fraught and we're probably most of us not going to end up in an ashram. And we might go for a while, but we're not going to spend a lot of time. So we have to create our own ashrams, you know, in our own homes. And I think that's what you do really well, your wellness program, and golden in what you're teaching pieces and people is, you know, you have had some phenomenal teachers along the way. You know, you work with Jon Kabat Zinn and Sharon Salzberg What I would like for you to do though, is speak with us about the benefits of gratitude and journaling. And why someone listening who, you know, wants to start why somebody listening would want to start a regular practice of these two, what you refer to in the book, healthy exercises, to benefit them emotionally and mentally. I know a lot of people say, Well, I'm going to do it, they get the journal, and then none of the pages ever get filled. And I'm as much culprit on that one, myself. Right. I do have a gratitude practice. But it's, it's more of a movement practice before I get out of bed. It's what I it's what I do and what I say to myself, and what my subconscious is being reprogrammed to every day. But I've been horrible about the journal entries. So what would you tell people about just journaling? And gratitude practice?

Julie Wald
Absolutely. First of all, you know, these are really, really, really fundamental, powerful practices, I will again reiterate that it's not a one size fits all. And so, you know, Greg, it sounds like you have an amazing practice in the morning of, of movement and sort of resetting your consciousness and dropping into gratitude. And, and if that's working for you, then you know, I think feeling really good about continuing on that on that trajectory. I, I know that, you know, when we take a moment to practice gratitude, it really helps us drop out of story drop out of our storyline, about, you know, all of the things that we're so worried about or that that aren't going the way that we want or that we feel like we need to get control over. It's a very centering, grounding, practice, even if it's something that's very A small like being grateful for a warm, delicious cup of coffee in the morning, right? Those are grounding moments to just bring us out of the whirlwind of whatever the storyline in our minds are. And when we journal about it, there's something very powerful about writing, it's part of what helps to repattern the brain and help develop pathways in the brain where we, we start to actually naturally think and respond to the world along those lines of feeling grateful of seeing things through that lens. And it's, um, it's, it just creates almost like a multisensory practice around gratitude that that impacts every aspect of of our being. Now, you know, it is all lovely sounding, and it is easier said than done. And usually with my clients, what we talk a lot about is really, really small, consistent behaviors, right? So what can you commit to on a daily basis, that is really too small to even be able to have an excuse, like, what have you just tell yourself that every single morning, I call it the first thought, best thought practice, you know, every single morning, the first thing that you're going to do, is just think momentarily about what you're grateful for, and you train yourself that the cue of, for example, your alarm clock, is that reminder of, oh, I'm thinking about what I'm grateful for right now, because my alarm just went off. And that's the pattern, that's the habit that I want to create, maybe before you go to bed. It's, I write one sentence of, you know, something that I had an insight on today, or reflection or something that I'm grateful for. And, and, and starting really small, and being incredibly consistent, is exponentially more powerful than, you know, doing something for an hour once in a while. It's just, it's the only way to start to incorporate some of these practices in a life changing way. In my experience,

Greg Voisen
well, and I would agree with you, and you know, the whole concept of tiny habits, you know, the gentleman from Stanford's been, I'm trying to remember his name. He's been on here and James clear as well, right? So, you know, when you look at it, it's finding things that you're excited about doing. And I like what you said there. Because, you know, when you got man who came in, who was, I wouldn't say beating himself up, but doing the triathlons and was having a difficult time finding more mobility in his life. You know, you gave him a simple practice of meditation that he may not have explored on his own, he might have kept down the same path, to make him more limber, but more importantly, the breathing. The breathing part of that to actually recenter yourself and leave a meditation practice. Like, I'm going to say this, like you're on cloud nine. It's kind of like, when when I leave meditation, it's like it's a whole new, Greg. And the question is, is how long can you carry that during the day? And keep yourself centered? And you know, I mentioned a minute ago, your wonderful mentors and teachers, many who have been on the show, Jon Kabat Zinn, Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzberg, what are some of the things that you learn from them that you've brought forward into your own practice, and are now transforming helping your clients transform by using it in their practice?

Julie Wald
Hmm, I think so many of the teachers that I have learned so much from and so many amazing teachers through the years, there's something very simple about their approach and their ideas and their understanding. And it's really just kind of the returning again and again and again to the simple ideas and concepts about, you know, being present, finding the wherewithal to be responsive, instead of reactive to find small ways to love and support ourselves and how that's the beginning of really being able to be a compassionate, you know, human citizen on this planet. And these these very, very, very clear and simple ideas that when we when we just that it all basically ends up going back to those concepts again and again and again. So when somebody comes to me when a client comes to me in a very worked up or complicated place, or you know it all, and I start to feel my own overwhelmed because as, as a coach, as a psychotherapist, you know, one of the tools that we use the sort of the way that we feel when we're with a client, and if I'm working with somebody who's really intense, or really type A, or really overwhelmed, I can feel that in my body. And, you know, the way that I work with myself and in grounding myself and trying to kind of see the simple truths. The simple ideas that are going to be the guiding principle and helping this individual back to a state of equilibrium always seems to be kind of the light through the tunnel, so to speak.

Greg Voisen
Well, I think as your background as a therapist and your background, as a teacher in this, I'm going to call it inner work. It's so valuable for people to, to experience to experience it in any way, whether it's through yoga, or breathwork, or tai chi, or anything that you're doing that you're helping them with or just counseling, just the initial counseling part of it. Because it and this is my next question, you say that all mental, emotional and physical patterning from our lives is stored in the cells of our body, I agree, contributing to the tension that we feel in our neck or in our John, the tightness in our lower back, or the pain that we feel in our knees or wherever that pain may be manifesting, because it does manifest throughout. And I find that, you know, because you've done plenty of work with this in the chakras. But if people are doing meditation properly, and they're bringing it back in, they're realigning those energies in their chakras, what kinds of body work and or massage do you recommend to move this stuck energy because when this energy gets stuck in you, you're a Reiki Master Reiki Masters are the best at moving energy can be so talk with our listeners about that with a minute and then we'll wrap up our podcast.

Julie Wald
Beautiful I love Well obviously I think Reiki and other types of energy work as well I know there's some some different expressions of of similar types of energy work, I think that this is something that can be done alone or integrated into massage therapy. I love acupressure, I love shiatsu and love Thai bodywork, which is sort of a different. A different type of you know, is otherwise known as lazy person's yoga. So it's, it's really some moving some of the gross muscles around in getting mobility in the joints, which I think can depending on the person feel really, really, really supportive and sometimes is necessary before we get to some of the subtler practices. You know, I think that it's so individualized depending on what somebody might be struggling with, right. So there have been times where, you know, things like lymphatic drainage or deep tissue massage, or sports massage are really the most important places to begin because of what's sort of happening and manifesting in a very obvious way the physical body and again, kind of once we work through some of those physical issues, we can start to peel off the layers of the onion and work in a more energetic fashion with things like as I mentioned, she ought to and acupressure and Reiki and I also am a huge fan and used to do a lot of this very early on in my career is really work with guided visualization, and helping people use their own minds to start to clear out some of the blockages particularly in the chakra system.

Greg Voisen
Well, very powerful guided visualization in conjunction with affirmations that I'm a strong believer in and whether you journal Are you don't like I'm not. The reality is if you were going to use journaling, and I remember from my course at USM and spiritual psychology, one of the most powerful things I think I ever did was write in the journal the things in my life that were very painful, and then burn it. Actually stick it in the fire. And it was the act of actually releasing that I think people talk about losing weight. But then we also talk about releasing weight. Releasing means we're, we're saying it's not coming back, losing it, to get means to me that it could come back again. But actually, those words are very powerful. And I think when you write words in a journal, and then you either burn them or get rid of them, however you do it, but burning, believe me, it works throughout the fireplace. So Julie, if you were to leave the listeners with three actionable ideas that could work immediately, because I always like to give people like, okay, immediate benefit here from our podcast, would that would help them to be at a greater peace and have more self care with themselves? What are you going to say are going to be the three things that they could actually do? Leaving this podcast and go, Okay, I can apply this today. One small step, for me in self care.

Julie Wald
Absolutely. So these are just three Fun, fun tips. And hopefully, one will be resonant, I think, setting a timer on your phone or your computer throughout the course of the day and random times. And when that timer goes off, using that as an opportunity to just take three full, complete breaths, to close your eyes, to stop looking at your screen, and to just pause for a moment to dial your awareness into your body, to give yourself those reminders throughout the day to Take three breaths, if you're resistant to that. That's, that's, that's diagnostics, so to speak. And we know that if the idea of taking three deep breaths is way too much for you to handle. That's good information to have about where we need to support you,

Greg Voisen
or those of you who are watching on YouTube, because many just listen, some watch. I closed my eyes and I took three deep breaths. And her practice. I know it sounds so simple. But it's so centering to just do that to recognize breath. So I'd say that's a great tip. Right there. Number one little things,

Julie Wald
little things can make the hugest differences and people think that just isn't worth it if it's just so small, and it's the most important number. Yeah, number two is to find a buffer between your phone and your bed. Figure out what does that look like is that you don't bring it you buy an old fashioned alarm clock from Amazon. And that's what you use to wake up in the morning. Do you literally give yourself you know, a digital sunset and put your phone to sleep at a certain time of the night and do other things. Even if it's 10 minutes before you go to bed that you decide I'm going to do something else. Figure out what that is for you right now what's progress, even if it's a baby step, that's okay, to just create a little more sacredness in your sleep routine in your bedtime routine, that it's a private time, it's a quiet time, and how can you create that energy. And lastly, I would say find something that feels nourishing to you that's not food, whether it's an amazing song that you love to listen to, that just fills your whole being, whether it's going out into the park or into your backyard or somehow connecting with nature, figure out how you can fill yourself up in ways that have nothing to do with food, not because you necessarily need to release weight, so to speak. But because nourishment is much more than just food.

Greg Voisen
So those are three great things that people were listening are still listening. And you take them away and you apply them. That would be easy for you to do every day. And I think it's Pharrell Williams happiness on when we hang up here. I'm going to go to Amazon music, I'm going to turn it off. Because that's one of the songs that I love. Hopefully, that's good advice for somebody listening as well. Julie, it's been a pleasure having you on. For all my listeners, we're gonna put a link to her website. We'll put a link to that new website that we'll get from her. But her book is called inner wealth. We've been talking with Julie Wald. And it's how wellness heals, nurtures and optimizes ultra successful people. And let me look at that last part of that. Everybody's successful. It's how you put it in your mind. So this book is for everybody. Thanks so much for being on inside personal growth. Namaste to you. Thank you for everything was a great interview.

Julie Wald
Thank Thank you so much Greg so much fun

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Introducing The Conscious Entrepreneur Summit
Being an entrepreneur can be stressful, lonely, and all-consuming. But it doesn’t have to be that way. The goal of this conference is to give entrepreneurs the tools they need to thrive as they build the businesses of their dreams.
The Conscious Entrepreneur Summit (https://consciousentrepreneur.us) is a 2-day, in-person gathering of ambitious entrepreneurs (just like the Inside Personal Growth community) taking place in Denver on May 17 and 18.

The event is bringing together over a dozen amazing speakers (Srikumar Rao, Kaley Klemp, Jerry Colonna, Rob Dube, and more) to share their wisdom and help entrepreneurs become more inspired, purposeful, and resilient leaders. Think of the Conscious Entrepreneur Summit as two days of content geared toward helping you get to the next level of person and professional success.

I think this aligns really well with your mission, and I know that many members would benefit from being a part of this event.
For The Inside Personal Growth Community: 
Use this code for $150 off – INSIDEPERSONALGROWTH – or direct link to www.eventbrite.com/e/197047503387/?discount=INSIDEPERSONALGROWTH

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth, this is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Boulder Colorado is Alex Raymond. Alex, Good day to you. How are you?

Alex Raymond
Hey, hello, Greg. I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. And congrats on over 930 episodes of the show man Oh, man.

Greg Voisen
It is something you have to stay persistent at, let me tell you, and we've got some great besides you, we've got some great people coming up. We're going to be doing one with a Marshall Goldsmith. In next week, and I want everybody to take a look at that one, it's going to be called your earned life is the name of his new book. So that's great. But Alex is Alex piqued my interest. And I don't normally do this. But I saw this conscious entrepreneurs summit in Denver, May 7, and eighth. And for all my listeners in the Denver and surrounding areas. This to me with what I saw was going to be the speakers. The format of the meeting, it's a live session, it's not something you do on the computer, you actually get to go meet people upfront, shake hands. I thought I wanted to promote this for him and get the word out. And but I think it's good that you know a little bit about Alex first, because why would he want to do this? Why does he want to invest his time and conscious entrepreneur Summit. So Alex, you know, you've traveled around a bit, you own a software company called CAPTA. Tell us a little bit about you, and what inspired you to want to take the time away from your other business to promote this conscious, conscious entrepreneurs Summit, which by the way, for my listeners, it's May 17, and 18th. And we're going to put a link, you're also going to get off $150 to this summit, we're going to put a special link called where you can sign up through Eventbrite. The normal rate is 774, something like that? Well, what's the rate Alex?

Alex Raymond
Normal, the normal rate is 748 for the two day pass, and your audience will get it for just under 600 bucks.

Greg Voisen
Okay. So figure it 599, or whatever that turns out to be. So it's a great deal for two days, and especially with the speakers, he's got lined up, and we're gonna get into that in a minute. But Alex, tell us, you know, what inspired you to want to do this? Have you done this before? Is it something that you know, you just do every year? Fill us in?

Alex Raymond
Sure. Yeah, no, thanks. Great. So as you mentioned, I live in Boulder, Colorado, I've been a software entrepreneur for about 10 years. The company that I run today is called Kappa, that's ka PTA, kappa.com. And it's software for post sales account managers. And let me tell you that, you know, this is easy to say, but it's hard to internalize for a lot of people, being an entrepreneur can be very difficult. It can be lonely, it can be tough, it can be stressful. And what I have found along my journey, is I've made literally all of the mistakes, every mistake in the entrepreneur book, getting way too stressed out about stuff, spending time comparing myself to others, thinking that everything is hyper personalized in me thinking that I am the Business getting burned out, you know, just feeling like I'm running on fumes. And I've you know, I've experienced all this along with the ups and downs of being an entrepreneur as you're trying to build a business. And some of the things that happened to me along my journey. Were, for example, being part of the very prestigious, very well known TechStars accelerator. And so this is a really well known program for startup company. And it's a really big deal to be involved in this community. And we were fortunate enough to be selected to participate in TechStars is back in 2014. Greg, and it was an amazing experience. Highly recommended, absolutely great. But I tell you what, at some point about halfway through the TechStars program, I get home one evening, and my wife says to me, this is supposed to be the highlight of your career, you're supposed to be at the absolute peak, and I have never seen you more miserable in your life. I'm laughing. I've never been more miserable in your life. And so my wife is mirroring to me, all the things I'm doing wrong. And I'm so grateful that she gave me a swift kick. And said, get out there reorient, reframe what you're thinking, and go out there and be the person be the resilient leader, the inspiring leader you can be and so

Greg Voisen
You know, it is you know, it's, I relate so much because I was a serial entrepreneur still am. And by the way, I'm gonna send you a copy of my book hack. Bridging the gap a journey from intuition to innovation beyond you know, when you say it's a, it's a lonely journey, and there's all these pressures. And then the flip side of the coin is that everything we do is self induced. We're responsible 100% for ourselves how we live our lives. But it's really hard for an entrepreneur because of the comparison, you just mentioned that they're comparing themselves Why should be like this person, or I should have made that much money or I should already be here or should have would could. The reality is that's not the way it works in this summit is for all of you, who are out there questioning that question in it, because one of his first gateways not the first guest on the program. But one of the guests is Dr. Rao. And I know him personally from having worked with him, but also having had him on the show a couple of times. And I mentioned a minute ago book with Marshall Goldsmith, I actually met him through Marshall Goldsmith. And so speak with us about because, you know, one of his big things is, is happiness in the workplace, you know, so spoke with us about that.

Alex Raymond
So I mean, I love sweet Kumar, Rao, I love his work, it's, it's been life changing for me. And it's one of the things that I, I kind of just, I resonated with me so strongly. And, you know, his view of the world is he says, I'm a translator, he says, I'm a translator from all sorts of other wisdoms and traditions into the modern business environment. And so he says, things like, start with the choice of being happy. When you do that, when you make the conscious choice to be happy, good things happen all around, you change your mindset, you change your life, as opposed to thinking, well, I'll be happy when some something happened, I'll be happy. And when I raise money, I'll be happy when I sell my business, I'll be happy when I find a partner, or whatever it is, you're putting this if then thinking into your brain. And so what I love about Dr. Rao is he says, start with the state that you want to be in happy, grateful, you know, feeling great about yourself. And then that will change how you view the world that will change how you experience the world. Well,

Greg Voisen
you spoke, you know, you look, one of the Eastern traditions, and I've studied Eastern philosophy, and I can see you probably do a little bit yourself is, you know, our attachment, you know, one of the four noble truths is that attachment, you know, as Buddha said, there's suffering and then there's the end of suffering, well, the suffering is caused by you. So the only end of suffering can be caused by you. So he is absolutely right. He is. He is right on about that. And the other one of the other people that I know is going to be speaking is Kaylee Klemp. And Kaylee and her husband, Nate, who I know better than Kaylee actually wrote a book called the ADHD marriage together. We recently did an interview and for all those listening to the show, you can just type in ADHD marriage into my podcast, and you'll see that, but she's also a phenomenal coach, and she's an entrepreneurial coach, speak with us. What about what you've learned from Kaylee. And what she's going to be speaking about, because Dr. Rao is, is kind of in the later in the program, and I think you're ending more ending with him on the second day, because he's, he's really going to give the audience's the opportunity to rejigger their whole mindset and look at their subconscious. How do you program that subconscious? I can speak from honesty. I've actually do hypnotherapy and I have someone that does that on me, and it really makes a big difference, but speaks about Kayleigh.

Alex Raymond
So I found out about Kaylee Clem through the book, The 15 commitments of conscious leadership, which a mentor of mine, Sue Heilbroner gave me years ago. And I have gifted that book to many, many fellow entrepreneurs as well. The 15 commitments of conscious leadership is just such a great framework. And so Kaley is a co author of that book. And at the event at the conscious entrepreneur Summit, she's going to be sharing what she calls four secrets of conscious entrepreneurs, about being curious about being responsible. And this is stuff that just is going to be so powerful for entrepreneurs in their daily lives. And in fact, Greg, the number one commitment, the first commitment of the 15 commitments of conscious leadership is something you just mentioned, which is I take 100% responsibility for my life. So just like you were saying, it starts and ends with you. Recognizing that is one thing talking about it is another thing, living it is completely different. So I'm super excited for Kaley because she's gonna go into this really deep, she has a wealth of knowledge. She's worked with EO groups, YPO groups, she has all these private clients who come to her for executive coaching. So she has really seen a lot and is going to bring all that experience to the event.

Greg Voisen
Well, I'm for all entrepreneurs are listening, you know, I, I went back to school late and got a master's degree in spiritual psychology. One of the things we used to say two things, one, you don't have to believe everything you think. So first one. Second one is if there was a camera that was following you all day long. And then you played the video back at the end of the day, what you saw, would you like what you saw? And I think that perspective of just taking a glimpse into the one day view of Greg voicing, or of Alex Raymond or anybody who comes to the summit, you know, Dr. Rouse going to have you open that door up and examine some of those things that you're doing. I know he is because that's what he does really well. And you're going to want to change some of those habits and behaviors and we know that they're tough, because you're reprogramming yourself. Speak with us about you've got some breakout speakers, you've got some other speakers, tell us let's we have time to do one more, maybe profile. One more speaker, who would be the third one on your list that would just be like, knock your socks off.

Alex Raymond
I mean, I can talk about all my speakers because I love I love them all. They're there, too. In particular, I'd highlight Jerry Kelowna is based in Boulder. He's an executive coach. And he is someone who has just lived through all this stuff as an entrepreneur and his drive is to share that with the world. He runs a group called reboot here in Boulder. He's written a book called reboot, and he's going to do we're going to do kind of like a fireside chat he and I on leadership and the art of growing up. So what

Greg Voisen
His website is reboot IO, right?

Alex Raymond
reboot.io? That's correct. That's correct. The other person I would highlight simply here, Greg is Rob Dubay. Rob is so inspiring. He's the CEO of this amazing company called Image one. On top of that, he's a meditator, mindfulness teacher, he is just doing so much to raise the consciousness of the world. He wrote a book called do nothing. He's got an amazing podcast and outreach and he is going to be doing a talk on 10 disciplines for managing and maximizing your energy, which is a program that he actually put together with Gino Wickman, the founder of Eos entrepreneur offering Gino Geno's. Yeah, so that's going to be an amazing program too. So, here's the point on the conscious entrepreneur Summit, no matter where you are in your journey, if you're just starting out, if you're five years in, or if you're doing $100 million in revenue, we're going to give you tools to build resilience to overcome stress to overcome fear to get out of your own way. So this is not something that's targeted toward, you know, big companies, small companies, but anyone who's gone through that journey or is interested in the entrepreneurial journey, they'll all benefit from learning from these amazing folks.

Greg Voisen
Well, Dr. And I'm trying to think of his name, the book was the power of full engagement, they sold millions of copies, he's been on my show two or three times and incense become just a really good advocate for us. You know, that energy management partner, the part that he's going to speak about, is so important, because in entrepreneurship, if you don't manage your energy, most likely you're gonna burn out. And the reality about managing energy has to do with your ability to sustain long periods of, you know, innovation, design, sales, whatever, you have to deal with that to get your product to market or service to market or whatever it is. And I would say if there's any one thing, and I'm glad you got robbed doing this with you on a fireside chat is, seriously, everybody listen to this. I've had for startups, I've literally been to the brink of everything. You know, I was having anxiety attacks to the degree that I was really debilitated. I was staying inside. I didn't want to go anywhere because I was afraid. It can really physically affect your health. And so whether it's meditation, I did some biofeedback. I then joined Self Realization fellowship, I became a devotee, whatever you need to do, I just tell people look, if it's long walks in the park, if it's if it's going to the beach, if it's having something to get your mind off of it, you've got to do it. And I can tell you probably the most therapeutic session is going to be Alex and Rob at the fireside. Speaking about all the trials and tribulations they've put up with Rob just said his wife told him you are the big you need didn't say it this way, but it sounded like maybe it was way too Do you need to get it right, Alex? Or else?

Alex Raymond
Well, Oreos is great is real? Yeah. How many entrepreneurs do you know who are, you know, divorced or, you know, tough situations with their families and with their spouses or you know, they don't have great personal relationships. And so we know that this is, it's critical. You've got to have personal health, relationship, health, emotional health, and then you can have business health and success. And what I say what I truly believe is, every dollar you invest in yourself, every hour, you invest in yourself, pays out 10 or 100 times in the world. Everything I need to do it. Well,

Greg Voisen
Look, you've been successful. It looks like you spent many of your years outside of this country working, doing was it technology based startup stuff?

Alex Raymond
Primarily? Yes, I can. The tech field I lived in London for while I went to business school in France. I lived in Hong Kong. I was in Beijing. Yeah.

Greg Voisen
So take it from somebody who's really had his feet to the fire. Right, Alex? And the reason that tell me something, you say you've done this more than once? Is that correct? This isn't the first summit or is this the first summit?

Alex Raymond
This summit is the first time and it's based on everything I've been able to learn over the years. And I'm bringing everyone together. My view on this, Greg is I don't have all the answers. But I can create a space where people who do know lots of stuff can come together and share and that's the vision.

Greg Voisen
Well, I would strongly encourage my listeners. Without further ado, to go to conscious entrepreneur.us. We will put a code there'll be a $350 off code. For anybody that comes through my site to come to this. At the same time, we'll put a link up to kept up. We'll put a link up to Kaylee's take Kaley clamp, so that you can see on his website for the conscious entrepreneur Summit. You're going to see videos at the bottom YouTube videos. I encourage everybody to just take a look at some of those videos. One of them is a TED talk. I think that Kaylee did. There's others there. When you hear Dr. Rao in his Indian voice, you're going to be mesmerized because he really does. He doesn't speak like Alex ri. He speaks in a very, very calm tone. And he's the kind of guy that gets

Alex Raymond
You what? Yeah, absolutely. Mesmerizing.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's mesmerizing. So just for that alone, to get you guys dial man would be great. But importantly, about Dr. Rao at UCLA, and some of the other universities he's taught out. He taught a whole MBA course in this. And I'm trying to remember the name of it. Can you tell me what it is?

Alex Raymond
Yeah. So the course is called Creativity and personal mastery. That's Columbia, London Business School, UCLA.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, he had it all over because he gave me the syllabus of the whole course.

Alex Raymond
So that's a great read that syllabus.

Greg Voisen
Well, what's more important about the read is the books he recommends to read. As a result of going through that, I mean, if you just picked out two or three, the one that Kaley did, that Alex just mentioned, would be a great one. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna go, why when we're done, and order that off of Amazon, because I haven't read that one. Alex, is there anything else you want our listeners to know about the summit? Any of the other speakers before we wrap this up, and I let you get on with your day?

Alex Raymond
The one thing I'd say is this is not just based on my personal journey, I have been a mentor to dozens of other entrepreneurs along the way. And I know that a lot of people, you know, they feel that something's off or they feel afraid, or they have you know, risk of burnout and stuff like that. And often they don't know the first step to take or they don't feel like it's okay to talk about this stuff. So I don't want to what I want to make very clear is, it is okay to be an entrepreneur to be a successful entrepreneur, and at the same time, feel like hey, things are not right in here. And what we're doing with this conscious entrepreneur Summit is creating the space for us to understand what's happening, and get tools to build resilience and overcome whatever's in our way. So it's okay if you're feeling this, it's okay if you don't know, hey, how do I how do I where do I get started? How do I talk about this stuff? That's exactly what this community is all about. And thank you, Greg, for helping us to apify voice

Greg Voisen
While you're quite welcome, and I always appreciate doing it, because the suffering associated with it is self induced. The hardest part is to realize and be aware that it's self induced. And to get that awareness that the suffering as a result, the pain, the whatever you want to call it, confusion you go through, you think you should have all the answers and you don't requires a lot of and I know this sounds so simplistic for my listeners, because they've heard this from me, letting go. You know, because in the end in our finitude, I have a saying over on the wall from the Dalai Lama, you're only going to be known by how much he loved, how many people loved you, and how much you let go. And nobody on their deathbed, or not many entrepreneurs I've known who've gotten terminal cancer, and I've known many have sat there in the bed in the hospital, and said, I wished I'd been at the office one more day, or I'd closed one more deal or I'd, I hammered something out, or I've done something that wasn't what they were saying to themselves. What they were saying to themselves is that I wish I had a better understanding of this transition spiritually, from the physical body, the physical body that we're in, into the astral planes that you're going to go into, and understanding myself spiritually. And I say this journey is an entrepreneur journey, with a big dose of spiritualism, and I'm not advocating that he's putting on a spiritual conference. But I'll bet you many of you who go will have a spiritual awakening as a result of the speakers, and especially Dr. Rao. If there was one person who would be allowed to push the envelope at this conference, it's going to be Dr. Rao. So I would say you know, you might want to, you might want to go just to hear him but more importantly, Kaylee all the rest of them. Alex, I just want to acknowledge you for putting this on, for taking the time to do it. I know how grueling this could be, because I've been an event producer. And for all of you out there, we're gonna put the links but for right now, I don't have it up. But I'm gonna say it conscious entrepreneur dot U. S, to the two day Summit, it's May 17, and 18th in Denver, and the location I forgot, we're downtown somewhere. We're that

Alex Raymond
We’re in downtown Denver at a beautiful event space called asterisk. So really easy to get to. Yep.

Greg Voisen
Okay. And for all my listeners in the in and around the Denver surrounding area, I just remembered three or four more I need to refer to you. Please go to the website, click on this link that we're going to give you to get off your $150 code. And Alex, thanks again for spending a little time on the show. Namaste to you. And thank you for everything that you're doing.

Alex Raymond
Thank you, Greg. Great to be here.

powered by

Joining me for this podcast is a CEO, board and start up adviser, consultant, speaker and investor, Hamish Thomson.Truly competent in his 30-year career, he has been a successful Regional President and Global Brand head for Mars Incorporated (UK, Australia and Chicago), a senior marketing and sales lead for Reebok International (England and the Netherlands) and a fresh-faced account executive in the London advertising scene.

In this interview, we mainly discussed his book entitled It’s Not Always Right to Be Right: And Other Hard-Won Leadership Lessons. The book is an autobiographical account of business and personal insight from 30 years of corporate experience which also includes commentary and critique from 17 leading international business experts – leaders of global industry, diplomacy and advocacy.

Hamish also gives a flavour of his writing by including the book’s opening pages along with a quick excerpt from the first two chapters. If you want to read it, you may check his website by clicking here.

You may also check more about Hamish and his works in his website.

I hope you enjoy this engaging interview with Hamish Thomson. Happy listening!

THE BOOK

An autobiographical account of business and personal insight from 30 years of corporate experience. Also included is commentary and critique from 17 leading international business experts (refer below) – leaders of global industry, diplomacy and advocacy. It contains diversity of thoughts and these contributors provide value added perspective that you can certainly learn something from it.

THE AUTHOR

A New Zealander from birth, Hamish Thomson is a seasoned global leadership executive. In a 30-year career, he has been a successful CEO/Regional President and Global Brand head for Mars Incorporated (UK, Australia and Chicago), a senior marketing and sales lead for Reebok International (England and the Netherlands) and a fresh-faced account executive in the London advertising scene.

A board director, leadership author and keynote speaker, start-up adviser and consultant, he currently resides in Sydney, Australia with his wife and three children.


You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Well welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and a host of Inside Personal Growth. And I have Hamish Thompson on the line from Sydney, Australia long way away 6am His time currently one o'clock our time here in good old sunny San Diego today we are going to be speaking about his new book. It's not always right to be right. Another hard one leadership lessons. Good. Dania Hamish, how are you? Hello, Greg, delighted to be with you. I'm glad you're awake enough to do this podcast.

Hamish Thomson
I'm quite lucky, actually, normally the side of the world and I do a lot with the US and Europe. Normally I get stung in the middle of the night. So thank you very much for you and your audience. I appreciate you for being on and I appreciate who you are, and what you are all the effort you went to, to get the critiques at the back of this and each of these chapters from all of these people, plus the lessons that you articulated in the book for all my leaders who listened because most of them are leaders, CEOs, CFOs

Greg Voisen
HR directors, middle management, you will want to and will have a wink, not only get the book, but go to his website, and his website is pretty easy. It's Hamish h-a-m-i-s-h. Don't forget the t-h-o-m-s-o-n, don’t forget the H because most people want to put an h in that. And I'm gonna let him know a little bit about you. He's a New Zealander from birth. He's a seasoned global leader, executive and 30-year career. It's been a successful CEO and regional president and regional brand head for Mars. So but mars pet food I found out, not those big Mars candy bars you guys like to eat from UK, Australia and Chicago, a Senior Marketing and Sales Lead for Reebok International, England and Netherlands and fresh faced account executive in the London advertising scene, border director and leader, author, keynote speaker, startup advisor and consultant. And He currently resides as he said in Sydney, but he will be traveling to the states here quite a bit. And he resides there with his wife and three children. And he's got a beautiful website, go there to learn more about him the models consultation. What Hamish can do for you? Well, look, you would think that the book just by itself is a pretty good indicator of what the books is about. But let's face it, we all run into leaders. We had one year ago, Donald Trump, there wouldn't have been one president ever in a country that he was always right. No one was ever wrong. It was always the Donald way or the highway. We currently have leaders in Russia, who he thinks he's right, everything that he does. And then we have an example of a leaders Alinsky in Ukraine right now, who really is a trusted and inspired leader, not a command and control leader. And you know, unfortunately, I'm glad where it's going to see the breakdown of all these systems that have been revolving around command and control and move into what I would call an enlightened air of leaders. And as you mentioned in the introduction, that life is damn hard at the best of times, particularly in the cut and thrust of the corporate world, right. And that's pretty good description of it. Whether you're just starting out or you're battle hardened, global leader, the demands of business are relentless, I get it. Tell us a little about you, and what you've learned, generally, from all the contributing authors who critiqued you, at the end of each of these chapters in your book, because it's fascinating how you went about it. You told these great stories, you put it all together, then you asked all these people to critique you. And then they write a critique at the end. I've never actually read a book like that.

Hamish Thomson
I suppose Greg, some people would say I'm a little bit lazy actually getting others to do that contribution. I'm a, I'm a type of individual I love challenge. And I love to think of different directions and different thought processes and thought leadership versus my own. And I've always sort of thought great leaders, they value the opinions of others ahead of themselves. So I love that idea. I think there's about 17 chapters within it. I'm your typical sort of ego centric CEO. I did actually look after the conviction side on a on the Mars front as well. So I'm a little bit guilty of that.

Greg Voisen
Oh, well, you talked about the pet food division. So I was getting I

Hamish Thomson
covered capital, I'd say. So I do have very sort of firm opinions and views on things. But I decided I got experts within different fields. So from different sort of CEOs and global presidents, consultants, lawyers, advocate groups, etc. And I just got on to challenge my thoughts and my views on each of these leadership topics. I think it adds value to the book that definitely adds perspective from insanely curious on that front. And again, I think it just challenges some of that sort of thought process as well. I remember once I was told by a chap called Samson Susan, who's an Asia Pacific boss that I had many years ago. And he said, Hamish, your mind works like a parachute based when open. And I just thought that was really sort of apt that it opened up sort of that whole new perspective. So I'm actually a New Zealander, Greg, most my law sort of working life crossing Europe, fair bit within the US. And I think you have an insatiable curiosity, when you're within a smaller town, and sort of looking out like breath and everything in my career to date. It wasn't planned. But it's all been fun. It's been different. You know, even this world of PE and a lot of the startups I'm dealing with at the moment. It's just opened my eyes. So it has been a good journey. And I'm sure it will continue.

Greg Voisen
And look, what's best for us lies in front of us. Now you tell a story about getting hired by Mars Petcare division, you actually even described the office as being pretty fallacious, because you didn't ever think that the offices in your part of the world would be that fallacious. But how big they were, you know, all that kind of stuff. And you correlate the story about wall logic and relationship with Ivan Pavlov, it's Pavlov's dog ringing the bell, bing, bang, come over, get your you know, your treat. Can you tell us the story and some of the steps in mastering relationships, because, hey, look, we've all trained animals. And a lot of people get trained the same way. You know, you get a reward if you do these things. And I know this from the best of the best, because I was always a sales leader, and then went into business entrepreneur. And it was always about your ego drive. If we can satisfy that ego drive, we'll give you another trip to Australia, we'll give you a trip here, we'll send you to Disney World will give you a bonus, we'll do all these external things, which never were intrinsically what I wanted. But, and I was never satisfied afterwards. Right. So I'd love to speak to you about that Pavlok concept and mastering relationships.

Hamish Thomson
Yeah, it's a, it's an interesting one. And I've been very fortunate to think sort of, particularly within Reebok and Mars. I've always had exceptional leaders around there. And I think they've inspired the right way to do things. And this particular sense, when, when I first joined within Mazda, Inc, it was it was a certain chap, who was the head of research and development. And I went in thinking that would be a very, this is the interview stage, and I was going to be a very scientific and very functional and technical discussion. So being the EGA, sort of young person, I was, I think, was going for the marketing here at the time. I was sort of prepared on that side, we opened up and he said, Hamish, you've spent a fair bit around the world and different parts within, obviously, Asia, Pacific, Europe and the US. He said, give me your ranking between relationships, law and logic, where they sit with each of those markets and those regions. And I must have made it through me and I tried to do the intellectually sort of answer and starts to go into a bit of logic around where it is in regard to the current political leaders or environments or if you're French, it's slightly different from being from Seattle, etc. And his whole point behind us, which great leaders make in regard to the point, it doesn't matter where you are, relationships will always trump logic and law. And it took me a little bit what a while to realize that but the amount of times you see amazing, innovative, creative, technical solutions from brilliant people, they generally a half leveraged, and they generally don't get off the ground and less they develop relationships and integrators and connectors that take it wider. And it was just a it was a really sort of key lesson on that that I take them seriously and I think most young Lee is when you start, you think it's all around technical and functional development. And the very first element, Greg would say, is start believing in the importance of relationships, but dedicate most of your time to leadership development as opposed to functional development. And normally, that only happens when you start to get a little bit more senior. So I think that's very key. The other sort of good tips of everyone that I sort of follow an outline within the book, if you're a leader of others, start placing your best integrators and connectors and your relationship people on key projects, even if functionally, they know bugger all about the topic. That's different from what I used to actually do. But those people who can actually inspire and garner groups and allies and an alignment and cohesion behind things and massively under leveraged and undervalued. And then I think the other one is just for most of us at the moment. I always try and start off my relationships with a thing concept, what I call day one trust. So I give people immediate trust, as opposed to having to earn that trust, there's sometimes you can get stung on there. But intuition generally, will see you actually have those relationships, but the beauty of day one, trust its speed of relationships. And when you have that, that's when your breakthrough can actually take place. The standard stuff like start with personal first business later, I think that's very key. And we all actually get that in our own right. But it is something that took me probably too long to appreciate. Relationships definitely here of law and logic. So true,

Greg Voisen
what you say. And my last podcast, prior to this one was Stephen, Mr. Covey on trust and inspire. And you know, he's the one who's probably written more about trust than anybody. And where it's going now is what a leader has to do to change the culture to a trust inspired culture, versus command and control. And I love what you said, because I'd say probably my whole life. I come from a Jewish mother and a Christian father. But when your mom's Jewish, you're Jewish, and I'm a Maven. And if anybody out there listening, understands what a Maven is, I've probably been the best Maven, my whole life, which MAVEN is a connector. It's a person that connects other people without any restitution. Just I think you ought to do that. And most of my week, is now spent connecting people with other people, and then seeing the blossoming of the relationships, because we're all interconnected. And I think that's so important. You have a chapter that you entitled drains and radiators, and you quote Ralph Waldo Emerson, people do not seem to realize that their opinions of the world is also a confession of their character. You mentioned that you use the drains and radiators story frequently. Can you tell the listeners the story and the lessons that you've learned from the 30% rule?

Hamish Thomson
I think it's a it's a reasonably easy concept to understand. So the story itself, as I'll talk around that, but probably let me step back a little bit and just talk drains and radiators. So the drain is, is essentially what it says. And we all have drain moments that drain frames that could be sort of family members as well. But as people who see things differently in regard to a pessimistic style, they have many limiting beliefs, they, they suck energy from a room, and it's definitely not a can do attitude. And it's okay to have drain moments. We all get that. But I always used to say great, there's nothing worse as a leader by having drains around you within an organization. But I step back on that there is actually a lot worse. It's having a drain within your organization who infects the wider base of employees, and it just spreads like wildfire. irradiator does exactly what it says can do attitude positive, very results oriented and driven. And just in life and energy throughout the room. And the story around different chi red has different claims within the space. It was a large global advertising agency. And essentially the founder and CEO stood at the top of the stairs within his palatial surroundings, pulled everyone together and basically said, Hey, I love radiators. If you're a radiator, you'll go far within the business. If you're a drain, you can bugger off and you can bugger off now out. And he said a little bit more with colorful language. But I think the principles behind it are absolutely true. Now I always used to from a leadership perspective. Again, I would probably hire a lot of very intellectually clever people, typically very sound. But I didn't really think around the impact on the rest of the business. I've now got a higher in philosophy that I call C plus w is greater than II. curiosity and willingness and willingness with passion is greater than experience. And when you get those people who are incredibly curious, incredibly passionate, like out there and fix us right across the business, I now focus on getting the right people when, as opposed to the typically most gifted within there are put hiring radiators and advancing recognizing rewarding radiators way ahead of any engagement survey, Gallup process and everything, even though they're invaluable. They are not as good as getting those right people within the organization. And I think the other one is on that, as I said before, is when you get the right people when really give them key stretching assignments, and they will be the ones that were actually radiate energy throughout that concept, Greg, the 30% rule. Essentially what it is, is, I always take and I do this probably in different divisions or region or a country or a brand. I give them the 30% stretch targets. That's hypothetical number. But it's a target that is so ambitious, that the only way you can achieve it is by doing something completely different normally through external contact. And it's a great way to test who's a radiator and who's a drain those radiators, they thrive on it, they love it, they look for opportunity can do attitude, the drains, they'll put an immediate limiting belief up there. So I think it's probably my number one element in regard to people at the moment. Look for radiators.

Greg Voisen
Well, I know this sounds old fashioned. But they've always said, hire for attitude train for skill, you know. So, I mean, that's how many sounds very simplistic and it is, hang on a second, we'll cut this out. That that is very simple. All right. So I know it sounds very simplistic, but the reality is, is that, you know, you can go back to the day because we're not the same age, but maybe closer than some, you know, Zig Ziglar used to say, famous salespersons fail sales trainer. You know, it's not your aptitude that determines your altitude, it's your attitude. And I can always remember that from Zig. And I would think to myself, Man, it really is your attitude that determines your altitude. And your aptitude comes second. And I think that's exactly what you're saying. And I love it, because it is true. Now you state in so many occasions, our partners or our friends, are the driving force behind our success, and importantly, our own self-awareness. Those who know us tend to notice behavioral changes way before we do if you would speak with us about your coach, Jack Jeffries, you had a coach, I think it was from Atlanta said true. Colorado, Colorado, and how he worked with you to transform you personally. Because he I'm gonna say this, it's my show. He called you out on your shit. And you were hiding behind all kinds of crap. But Jack wouldn't have any of it. So tell us a little bit about that story. I always think it's fun to see how a CEO evolves into a CEO through a good coach, like Jack.

Hamish Thomson
your very best coaches are those ones who can have crucial conversations with you. And it's the same with partners or family or friends. You listen to them more than you listen to anyone else. And I've got those things which are the 98% concept and you get a lot of feedback within a multinational you get so much feedback and 98% of it, just let it go over your shoulder. It's doesn't mean it's wrong, but it's only really the 2% that resonates these good coaches like Jay heck cut through. And I remember having this conversation and Jack used to be at CCO and Colorado, he's out on his own now. And basically the element was Jack, I'm not really enjoying myself, I'm sort of struggling is this leadership material really me as that is a little bit sort of to not high pressure, but am I really enjoying it. And he said to me, Hamish, you can change your attitude in a nanosecond. And in this particular case, you either change what you do, or you change your attitude. And if it's the latter, you do it immediately. And he was so right, it was basically you do have a choice. And you always have a choice. Some people have more privilege opportunities, and it's easier for them to make. But others and in this particular case, it was I do something different, or change the attitude. And I liked this element of the instant, and instantaneous nature of the neighborhood actually changing attitude so quickly. So it's really sort of key. And I think that's, I think that's very pertinent across when you go throughout your career, those people who genuinely care for you and start from a position of care, the other ones you can point out when you're starting to lose your true authentic self. So having those key people to be able to have those conversations with you is absolutely key. And then equally, knowing yourself, what are those key trigger points that set you off? I'm a very impatient person, I'm incredibly results oriented on what big driven what's new and fast. But when I start to find myself losing my authentic self, my first signal that comes out, I'm incredibly impatient with others, as opposed to try and give them more freedom and autonomy. I jump in, and I'll try and do it myself. As opposed to coaching and supporting I'll start directing. So it was a really, it was a good lesson from Jack,

Greg Voisen
not always right to be right. Was so spot on. So Well, look, awareness is 100% of the issue. And as soon as you become awareness, you have aware you have a choice. The other thing is there's this constant dynamic between the ego and the soul, the conscious and the subconscious. And what people don't really realize is when you can bring the two in balance, and you can work with your subconscious mind. Your subconscious mind works while you're sleeping, it programs. And it has the ability to manifest anything in your life that you want. Whereas the conscious mind, and the ego is the one that's limiting. It's trying to protect you. And it's saying, hey, Hamish, you know, don't do this, don't do that. Because all I want you to do is survive. Now, the mammalian brain, which we evolved from, understands the ego side greater than it does this, this basically subconscious soul side. So when you get that, and you follow that formula, you literally break open all new avenues and terrain to move to. Now, you state that when you took your new job, that you were way too serious, I can see that, I can still see that. And everyone in your life took a backseat, including the attention to your health. You're saying you gain way you weren't doing what you were originally supposed to do. You tell our listeners about the five step process, to smiling again, that's we're just talking about to smiling again, and what happens to when you become aware of your shortfalls. And here's the other thing, and become aware of how alive you can be and how creative you can be when you realize that you allow that ego to do that to you. Because that's exactly what happens.

Hamish Thomson
I liked your talk around that self-awareness, Craig. And I've always sort of had a view that's, you know, these Johari Windows things, everyone's got blind spots, but when people call out a blind spot and you become aware of us, self-awareness is one thing that you have to self-develop, and you have a responsibility to self-develop. This particular instance I was I was probably around 27 I was hitting up a European marketing comms for Reebok. So it was a great job and I was based in Amsterdam. And if you can't enjoy yourself in Amsterdam, where the hell can you enjoy yourself? And I had a friend I was one of You're out at a restaurant or a bar. And a friend came along and he introduced me to his fiancée and he said, Pam, like you to meet Hamish, the manner used to smile. And it was a very simple thing that he said, but it really got to me. And I pulled him aside and said, What the hell do you mean to the man who used to smile. And he said, for the last few months, you've taken on this new role, and you've just become serious, you've lost yourself within that. And I've always been a serious guy, but I'm also reasonably sort of chilled out. And I have a very good balance of things that I've always believed. If you have excellence in life, you have excellence of business. And if I get the first bit wrong, I'm never going to meet my best. And I'm a massive believer in that as well. As you know, there's no point in having two sides for someone, you've got to be 100%, the same as who you are at work as you are at home, it's just brings out the best. But this was a real sort of wake up call on less and it's made me sort of think back and those steps that I won't go through sort of each of them, it is definitely find out who those trusted people are, you know, your own signals or directly and actually have regular check in points along the way to see Have you got that balance. And as if that other one honors, which is really key. Don't try and be somebody else that you're not. And that's particularly important for new starters, and I've got a different approach on this a new graduate and new intern or new starter, a lot of people talk around your first 90 days just sort of sit alone and don't give sort of too much input observe. My view is one, never given approve mode. You've already got the job, you've done the hard work on that. But from day one, give your input and give your thoughts. That's the perspective the fresh eyes come in. And normally, that's the most invaluable perspective and thought that comes in. And I've always had a thing, Greg, that I've, I've written down just before even starting in a new role or country, all my hypotheses are what I would do what I think is right within the business, and eight times out of 10, when you look back, you normally get that first intuition, right? So it was a pretty key lesson, I fall into it a couple of times taking things too seriously. But you never do best when you do.

Greg Voisen
Well, I think the Buddhists have a statement. And because this show covers on philosophies. When you're attached to the outcome of anything, doesn't mean that we don't have goals, doesn't mean we don't have aspirations, doesn't mean we don't have intentions. But the best laid plans don't always work out the way you think they're going to work out. And if you're attached to the way you think the plan is going to work, just see how God brings that together for you. And then you'll see that it's not always that way. And I say that because you know you have to have a degree of flexibility about you. A degree of curiosity, along with that flexibility allows for great outcomes. Now, that aspect, you know, getting attached to that expectation is a mindset that's fixed. Right? But you need to be in flux, not in physics. And if you're in flux, and you know how to handle flux, you literally get the outcome, but not always exactly how you expected to get there. Now, you have a personal hero, Richie McCaw, the legend coach of the All Blacks I saw his picture in your book, I know all about the All Blacks because I was gonna buy a t shirt when I was in New Zealand. And then you know, I looked at the price and I was like, holy Criminy. And what like $100 for a T shirt, you state that humility and spades values through the roof and a lead by example, work ethic that is yet to be matched. Please speak with us about this distinction between I just said it results and awards. You know what he got not to be tied to expectations of the outcome, not to be tied to the outcome. And that's why he was such a damn good coach.

Hamish Thomson
So there's an element on he's us probably one of the best he's a captain in the All Blacks two World Cup winning elements and he is a CFC superstar and there's a great Maori proverb. Within there this is the Coomer which is the sweet potato doesn't have to say how sweet it is, and I I love that because he's a person that just steps back and has that humility. very charismatic, but is respected. And he's also liked as a leader. And I think that's a key difference on that. And I was lost to sort of told very clearly that when you respected people follow you, but when you respected the light that walk over coals for you, and an exceptional leader, will walk over coals for their people. And there's a little bit of a difference on that. And that's sort of key to the awards and, and results from an island that was in London advertising creative head took me out over a boozy lunch. And the seventh bit of tongue in cheek said your results are nice, but awards matter. And, you know, for any of those in traditional blue chip companies, you know, it's sacrilegious to actually say, but I started thinking around us and, you know, I've been very lucky and fortunate regard to my career of having some great results, results, revenue, profit, cash sort of targets and things, people get excited behind them. But it's only really meaningful rewards that you get a euphoric nature. And if I start thinking around that even small things like an associate of the year, a Sustainability Award a number one customer a gold lion statue from the Cannes advertising awards, people take those, and it actually means something, those are the things you talk around the dinner party in a barbecue with the family, you don't talk around meeting a 3%. Net Sales Revenue target every year. And I just really sort of liked that concept. And the more senior you go, you try and convince yourself that no at all results and awards don't matter. Now, don't get me wrong, they're not mutually exclusive. I know that. But those leading indicators will lead to results. And having that balance in there, I think is absolutely key, and Richie McCaw just always had that he always said, I don't worry about the end result. It's around the training and what I do every single day and those leading indicators that will lead to the end result. And as a result, he pulled off some amazing awards as well. So yeah, I have a little bit of that typical men crush with a met. But I think my wife's got the same one normal.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, intrinsic is sustainable. Extrinsic is not sustainable. So anything that evolves as a result of a value, that you uphold something you're going for a purpose, and intention, regardless of the award. The award is the feeling that you're receiving inside as a result of doing something good for other people, whether it's philanthropic, or it's helping an old lady across the street, it doesn't matter what it is, it's doing good for other people, period, you started this show off with relationships, relationships are just the people that you make connections with. And in your chapter, it's not always right to be right, your book, it's not always right to be right. You quote, Gore Vidal, who said, I told you so. And there was a longer statement than that. But it basically said, I told you so. And how many people have said, I told you so after the fact. We've all known leaders like that to be right. And they're not very good listeners. Speak with us about the framework of a compromise and hope and inclusion. You know, as a leader at Mars, I'm sure Mars wanted their leaders to look for compromise, and they wanted to provide you wanted to provide the rest of the people that work with you with hope, and you wanted to hear them, you wanted to include them. You know, and I think today, it gets brushed over way too easily. That people you know, look, I'm a podcaster 900 podcasts, you can't do this many podcasts and not become a good listener. Okay, but so many people are waiting to respond and are not truly listening deeply with heart centered listening, where's the pain? How can I help them through the pain? So what would you say about that?

Hamish Thomson
And I would say it's very much a cliché, but that sort of statement just thinking around. seek to understand before being understood. It is key Beyond that, and from a leaders perspective of outline this a little bit, but you step back, you're the last one to actually speak within a meeting. And if you don't have to speak, you don't have to speak if it's not your idea or your concept, your breakthrough transformation, it doesn't matter at all. If you've unlocked potential with another's, it's a really cool feeling. But you have to have enough confidence to actually do that. And this, I love that Gore Vidal statement, he said, what was it, they said, are the four most important words in the world, I told you so and it's the arrogance, sort of all that, that's typical sort of ego centric sort of CEO. And I sort of outline Greg, my experience, and I think this is probably quite similar. You're almost ingrained from day one to believing to be an effective leader, you have to be right. And I used to every dialogue, discussion debate I'd have with someone, they'd always be a winner and a loser. I was actually okay at it, I generally came out on top, but it was very one off and transactional in nature. And when you started to sort of sit back, you started to reflect was very limiting one, your perspective. And your diversity of thought was incredibly silo and narrow minded. Because if you already knew you're not listening, as you said, you're not opening up your mind to others. Secondly, I started to notice that my biggest breakthroughs and transformation and results came from not one off relationships with people, but stage two and stage three, when there was a dip and a real quality of relationship. Now, when you're always right, you're not going to have a stage two and stage three relationship. You know, that wasn't partnerships at home, if you're consistently right, you're not going to be able to have those deep and meaningful conversations that lead to break through. And then probably the last one that really jumped out to me, you

Greg Voisen
know, what I started for interrupting, but trying to remember the guy that wrote the book, men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. He was on the show. But he said, and you love this statement, you probably heard it, would you rather be right? Or would you rather be in love? It's nice as well, it's nice, because whether you're female, or you're male, or however you're working, you know, in a relationship, or you're on your lesbians, or you're, you know, you're gay. That statement goes across the board with whoever is your lover, you know, and it for people who are always trying to be right, it's a constant challenge, versus giving that up. And you really find that it's not that important to be right. It really isn't. Especially if you want to have love because all you create in a relationship, when you try and always be right,

Hamish Thomson
is fear. You know, it's interesting all night, I think within lockdown, I've probably been told more than a dozen years of being a CEO, about dad or Hamish, it's not always right to me, right. So it is just as personal within there. I think the other thing is, Greg, that when you are right, you limit Unlocking Potential with others. So if your teams or those around you, that don't challenge you that I provoke you, they won't have a debate or a dialogue with you. Because they know they'll always lose. And then they sit back. And it's just inertia. And they don't put in their input, which is, you know, great leaders, and I think exceptional partners and parents, you don't want to nurture within that you want people to actually shine and develop as well. So I think it is, it is really sort of you know, it's key on that. And as a leaders’ job is definitely seek to understand and give your input last. Stop thinking around what are those battles that are just not worth going in, if it is going to compromise a relationship, and a lot of people think compromising is limited. But if you think around the longer term gain the depths and trust of a relationship that you can build, you're actually measure the results of a transaction one on one a lot differently. You're looking at on a longer term basis, that depth where it actually leads to break through as well. The only time that I always think it's appropriate to say yes, definitively I am going to be right within this. If a topic actually crosses your value line, then I think it can actually be compromise. And you have to sort of always the no debate, no excuse mentality. But apart from that, I think everything is open. And that's where Mars and can which I think is still amazing company. They have this concept about a principle called mutuality. And its long term enduring Win with partnerships and suppliers. And a lot of companies do that. But those who live us every day, I think those ones who are generationally relevant as well.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, gentleman on the show the other day, and he has his own company now. But he used to work directly underneath Steve Jobs, and he's bald. And he said to me, and I don't think jokingly, he said, The reason I'm bald is because I work directly for Steve Jobs, I don't have this hair. And he said, three years I worked underneath him, and the expectations were so high, and the stress was so high, you know. And Steve Jobs used to say, when you entered the room, the development room with the developers, a lot of people didn't know this, but they knew he had a big ego. And they knew he was very tough to work for it, right. So everything's been written about him. But when he got behind closed doors, he said, everybody dropped your egos. Because we need the collective power of the fought from everybody in this room to solve this problem. It's not just me, I'm not going to be the only one solving the problem. And I think that's an interesting thing on the outside, when you weren't in those think tanks, he was pretty tough. Inside the think tanks, he was able to let go of that ego and let everybody express themselves and come alive. Now you state that you've always marveled at outstanding marketing, the ability of brands to consistently reinvent themselves and remain generationally relevant is an art form to the hold. You speak with our listeners about the three steps to becoming exceptional. Now this brand can be self-brand, if he Greg Voisen and inside personal growth, that's a brand, right? Also speak with us about our own personal leadership brand.

Hamish Thomson
Yeah, that's, that's alive. As I said, I started out London as a as a very average and pretty crappy copywriter. And fortunately for the British public and viewing public has moved on to count management pretty quickly. But I learned very quickly through a number of years and global sort of marketing heads that are roles. The best form of advertising comes in three words, you've noticed, remembered and understood. And it's in those three elements there in that order, actually, one you got to be noticed you have to actually break through to begin with, and digital format is obviously critical now. So your 30 seconds turns into two or three, you have to instantly recognize recognition, all that, remember does obviously getting associated with your brand, your distinctive assets, a signature processes, and understood just your consistency. So fairly basic format. But what I've actually lacked over the years, is how do you take that brand format and place it within a leadership, leadership development or leadership brand? And there are back row formats and templates to actually do that. So I've probably done this for the last maybe 15 years, use the same branding format that Craig leadership templates for people to actually follow. So what is your leadership capabilities and competencies? What are you incredibly gifted at? Functionally? What is that? Where do you derive your energy from, likewise, what sets you dry within your energy? And the overall premise behind it, Greg is when you are working on something that you're incredibly talented that that equally you're incredibly passionate at, and that meets your values. It's a marriage made in heaven. And over time, when you can be a little bit more selfish. You want to be working on all those things you're passionate around and you're talented at, and how do you surround yourself with other people who can pick up that slack? Nobody can be good at anything, even a general manager and a generalist. But it's a really key way of actually putting your brand in strength across and it is quite liberating. Because you're actually passionate around what you do. And it's quite easy to actually do that. So that's the concept behind it. I'm yet to see even from the Baines McKinsey's BCGs of the world. I'm yet to see a leadership brand template that actually works and as of as effective people.
Greg Voisen
you know, we live in a world that seems to be very sped up, sped up meaning fast. You even mentioned you have to have it within the first two seconds, not the first two minutes. And now I'm going to put a plug in for a gal who works on personal brands. He's been on the show several times. Dorie Clark, Dorie Clark is exceptional, because you know, when you look at how our world is today, and how we are using the internet, to interface with other individuals, and the speed at which this is being done, and the interconnectivity amongst all our relationships, we, we literally have to get that right. And hopefully, we get it right the first time. And I would say to anybody out there, you know, go look at people who work with people who use the internet as their mechanism to connect. And that's everybody, where we're all doing that today. And if there is a strategy and a tactic to it, don't get so tied into that, get tied into being the best you can be. And then let somebody help you do all the rest of the stuff. Now, this book, we you and I could probably talk forever here. But I'm going to tell my listeners, though out, we're going to put a link. It's not always right to be right, go to his website, we'll put a link to the website as well. And I'm going to wrap our interview up with this. The book is loaded with valuable advice from being humble, to learning from your experience. What three takeaways would you like to leave the listeners with from it's not always right to be right, that they could apply in their life as a leader as an individual, just walking away from this podcast and saying, Hey, Hamish, it was great. This is a great book. And I learned three things.

Hamish Thomson
And how, how revolutionary they are, I don't know. But I think the very practical ones are probably the best. So the first one, I'd say just consciously put leadership development to hit a functional development and do it in early stage, you can't do one without the other. But really try and do that, I think as early as possible. The second one, and I think this is within the lesson within life, just put others ahead of yourself, value them their opinions, it'll come back to you it always does in regard to the benefits, benefits on that side. And then the third one, which is probably what we just talked around, Greg, do what you love, right? It's so much easier, life becomes more enjoyable, and your results will actually flow on us. And then even though you haven't asked for it, I'll give you my one famous quote, which I absolutely love at all times. Little cheesy from Mario Andretti. But it's if you're in control, you're not driving fast enough. And I love that there's enough clever cookies around you to put you back on the track at all, but give it a nudge. Life's too short otherwise,

Greg Voisen
so true. I'm doing a book now with mountain climbers climbed all the highest Seven Summits. And I have the blessing the interview, these gentlemen who have climbed Everest 15 times or done the face of El Capitan without ropes, and every extreme athlete will tell you and I found out from this interview, you say well, what's the recurring theme? And exactly what Mario Andretti just said in your comment was, you're not living, you're not living unless you're facing death. And the interesting thing there is, is that many of them are extremely alive on the mountain. And the reason they get so addicted to doing more and more mountain climbs, extreme mountain climbs is because that's what fulfills them is to really push that limit. And like you just said, Mario Andretti said push the limit because someone else will put you in back into control. So do what Thomas said. Push the limit a little bit. Hamish wonderful having you on inside personal growth. taking a minute to speak with my listeners. I so value you the work you're doing. go to his website again. I will repeat it is Hamish h-a-m-i-s-h-t-h-o-m-s-o-n.com. We'll have a link to Amazon to get the book. This is a wildly book. It's wonderfully done. Wonderfully laid out wonderfully designed easy read, not hard. Got a lot of great kind of I want to say charts in it. You know things that you can just pick up on the pages and you can see a whole concept visually on there. So wonderful job in the design. I'm loud I'm your book I know what it takes to create a book I've done a couple of myself so I know it's challenging but you did an excellent job again go get this book. Thank you.

Hamish Thomson
Thank you Greg. Great to be here.

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For this podcast, I had an opportunity to interview a well-known and the very competent transformational coach and speaker, Finnian Kelly for his program entitled Intentionality Living Guide. He is dubbed as “The Business Mystic” for his unique ability to put consciousness into business and inspire leaders to find new levels of meaning and purpose through their creative endeavours.

With his expertise and dedication to inspire others, Finnian is a sought out facilitator and leadership coach, facilitating retrteats and speaking events for entrepreneurial communities. Along with this, he is also the Founder of Intentionality and the President of the Colorado Chapter of Entrepreneurs Organization which is the largest and most influential community of entrepreneurs in the world.

Intentionality, on the other hand, helps and guides people to be purposeful and aligned in their belief, thoughts and behaviors so they can feel more love in their life.

If you want to learn more about Finnian, what he does and his achievements, you may click here to be directed to his website.

I hope you enjoy this engaging interview with Finnian Kelly. Happy listening!

About Finnian:

As a sought-after speaker, event facilitator and executive coach, Finnian has been dubbed “the Business Mystic” because of his unique ability to put consciousness into business and inspire leaders to find new levels of meaning and purpose through their creative endeavours.  This approach flowed through his term as President of the Colorado Chapter of Entrepreneurs Organization (EO) – the largest and most influential community of entrepreneurs in the world.  Finnian helps people ‘love their path’ so they can feel content with a life lived in the now.

As an entrepreneur, Finnian built and exited two multi-million dollar companies in the financial industry.  He’s the Creator and Chief Visionary Officer of Intentionality.com. Through the four paths of the Intentionality framework, Finnian guides people to be purposeful and aligned in their belief, thoughts and behaviors so they can feel more love in their life.


You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from well, near Aspen, Colorado, is Finnian Kelly. And Finnian does not have a book. But in essence, he doesn't really need a book. He is the book, and a quite an interesting young man with quite an interesting background, but his website, or where you can intentionality.com you can also get him in Finnian f-i-n-n-i-a-n kelly.com. And the reason we're doing this is because in our wellness and our slash, spirituality segment of the show, we always like to profile people that are coming at this with a very deep, strong intention and intention to impact people's lives. And here's a little bit about finance. He's a sought after speaker, and a vet event facilitator and executive quote, he's been dubbed the business mystic. And I think for all my business listeners, it can help you to hear what he has to say, because of his unique ability to put consciousness into business and inspire leaders to find new levels of meaning and purpose through their creative endeavors. The approach flowed through the term as president of the Colorado chapter of entrepreneur organizations, and largest and most influential community of entrepreneurs in the world. Finnian helps people love their path, so that they can feel content with the life they live. And I think as people say, Finnian if you actually love what you do, there's never a day of work. As a lifelong learner. Finnian has degrees in math, physics, finance, leadership, teaching and a master's degree of science in positive psychology. I spent seven years in the Australian Defence Force and graduated from one of the most prestigious leadership organizations in the world, the Royal Military College, have done Trump. He makes appearances as a financial expert and has a mission to bridge the gap between money and spirituality. He's appeared on Sky business on ABC as a political commentator, and on 10s morning shows as financial expert. He's also a regular appeared as a guest writer, online publications of money management, Smart Company, Business Insider Forbes and more. He is a very much world traveler. And so Finnian You know, I think for our listeners that are business listeners in which is a lot of them are coming from LinkedIn and places like that. Can you tell them a little bit about this consciousness evolution from a personal standpoint that really needs to occur in their life, for them to lead a life of more wonderment lead a life of more intentionality, to lead a life that is more fulfilled, and lead a life where there may be even a little bit more minimalist. It's not about how much I buy or what I acquire. It's really about what I do with what I acquire. How do you help bridge that?

Finnian Kelly
Yeah, so it's, it's funny how we even have to get people to think that they need to bridge these areas. So they think there's a separation between business and personal. Isn't it just one like you, you as the person is still rocking up to the business environment? So to me, it seems that it's the same similar with science and spirituality, sciences, spirituality, spiritualities, and science. So the first part of is just actually accepting that there isn't this separation, that's a man made construct. That's an egoic construct, which creates this separation. And then if we start realizing, okay, in the business world, we are showing up as people, who are we leading people, who are we serving people, ultimately, that's why we're in business, as someone becomes very clear that we need to make sure that we're doing it with great intentionality. Are we having the impact on people that we want to be having? Are we improving our society? Are we improving our world? And that's probably the greatest starting point is just getting really clear on how is it you want to show up? How is it you want to feel and what are the feelings you want to vote for other people because ultimately, that is what business is, is creating a platform divide feelings for other people?

Greg Voisen
Well, speak with us about intentionality. There's a lot of people out there that maybe have their own definition of it. You probably have a definition of it. And then I think there's a misunderstanding of it. Because, you know, people use the word mindfulness a lot today to people meditate a lot more than they used to, or at least a lot of people do. People keep more time for themselves. But intentionality is something that they have to imbibe within themselves, they have to, like live it. So explain what you would help somebody find that highest level of intentionality, based around their values, such that they can make an impact on people, other people.

Finnian Kelly
Yeah, so intentionality for me is defining how you want to feel, and then taking deliberate behaviors or action towards it. So it's that combination of vision and action. Now, people will be wondering, why is it feelings why feelings matter so much? Ultimately, that's how we judge ourselves. So how we feel each day did that goal lead to a feeling that's what's more important than the actual goal? So why intentionality matters, because if you're not living with intentionality, then you're on an autopilot, we have two minds will effectively they're the one mind with a different classification, the conscious mind and the subconscious mind. Now the conscious mind is, is the logical part of the mind. It receives information with the five senses, it's where we think and where we rationalize. And what's interesting is it doesn't actually control most of our actions. The subconscious mind is what controls our actions. It's ruled by emotions and instinct. It's focused on the things that need what we need, like breathing, eating, safety, intimacy, all these different areas. And it's incredibly powerful because it's tapped into this universal source energy. That's where the subconscious, realizing that it's got this incredible power. Now, the challenge with the subconscious mind is, it doesn't know how to reason or judge, it just simply acts with whatever information it's given. So this is where intentionality comes into play. Because we've got to learn how do we connect these two minds, so they start working for us, rather than working against us? Because what happens is our thoughts, which is in our conscious mind, we program this into our subconscious mind, which then eventually becomes a belief and a habit. And then most of our actions start lining up in that way. So you might consciously think that you want to do you believe in abundance, but because of some act previously, unconsciously, you program the subconscious to believe in lack and scarcity. It doesn't matter how much your conscious mind wants it. If you're not working with the subconscious, you're going to create lack and scarcity in your life. So what we need to do with intentionality is goes well, how is it that I want to feel? What are the beliefs that I want to be operating? And then become a detective and go, well? Is my conscious mind and my subconscious mind working together? Are they in harmony? Are they aligned? And if they're not, then we have to use the sub, the conscious mind to actually start programming reprogramming our subconscious, until it starts working in the way we want? And the clue to see if it's working the way you want? Is this your feels the way you like, and your results? Exactly. It's very, very clear, like people who say like, I hear this all the time people go, and I believe in abundance. And I'm just like, well, that doesn't seem like the case, because you're not living a life of abundance, your actions aren't lining up. So this is where we were, which comes very, very clear. And ultimately, once you get those two minds working together, anything's possible. And that's the beauty of intentionality.

Greg Voisen
It's a great explanation, by the way, and I totally agree with you, you know, I work with Dr. Steve Berman, and Steve is was a regular MD, and now, hypnotist, and he gets into my subconscious from a standpoint of reprogramming health, what we believe about our health. And it's interesting, you know, the subconscious, if a doctor approaches you, and he doesn't do it with the right words, you begin to believe what he said. And I think too many doctors out there, you know, tell people, oh, you have cancer go home, you're going to die. So when you hear the story from people that have lived 1520 years after they got that diagnosis from that doctor, that's a reprogramming of the subconscious. That's a way to actually move beyond what someone told you. That was probably not correct. You know, you mentioned in your guidebook that there are five universal priorities for being intentional. Let's start with the first one which is love and would assume that love for self and love for others? How do you help people love themselves more and less than the ego voice that tells them they're not enough? Talk about your loving kindness meditation, because, you know, the biggest thing you just said was I have my conscious mind. That's where the ego is you have your subconscious mind, which is where the soul is. And you're trying to get the two of these aligned. And I'm curious, when the ego speaking and it's so strong, and it's saying you're not enough. And you're always trying to be better for somebody, your parents, your wife, your whatever, how do you help people align that?

Finnian Kelly
Yeah, it's such a beautiful point. And something which I I've been thinking about a lot recently is this idea that perhaps we're not broken, it seems like the society right now. And even on the spiritual journey, it's all about getting healed. But the act of getting healed says that you're not healed to start with them. And I'm broken. So almost, I've been playing this myself, recently is wondering if I ever broken, and I'm actually completely fine with how I am. And the way to do that is to start getting out of your mind and into your body and into the heart. And it's actually about connecting the heart and the brain and getting to a heart coherence state. So one way is to get into a heart coherence activation. And you can do that by focusing your attention in your heart, breathing in and out through the heart space. And then just making a really great system, sincere attempt to feel positive emotions for someone else, or through yourself. And the greatest way to do that is through these power emotions, which is compassion, appreciation, love and care. And just having that if you get those feelings flooding through your body, suddenly, you'll start feeling in a high state. And you'll be out of your head, and you'll start realizing that you are, are really enough. So that's one really great way. Another great way is through the loving kindness meditation. And this is a meditation that they've actually done a lot of scientific studies now that it produces the highest positive result. And through this process, what you're doing, you're giving loving kindness to yourself. So you might say something like, may I be happy, may I be well, may I be safe, may I be peaceful and at ease. And you do that three times to yourself, then you do three times directed to someone else, it could be a loved one, it could be a friend, or even better, could be someone who you're having challenges with. And then finally, you give it to all of humans, and you're sending out those messages. And I believe the reason why it's given the most scientific evidence why it's so valuable to us, because it's reminding us that we are all one, and that we're not separated. And love for someone else is also love for yourself. And it's an incredibly powerful act. And if you just do a few minutes of that each morning, you'll start feeling a lot more uplifted. And it's almost like you've, you've done a good deed for someone else already. Like before anyone even knows no one knows. And it's just a gaming thing. And it's, it's incredibly grounding and incredibly loving.

Greg Voisen
What's the difference? Would you say the Buddhists have a meditation called tongue limb. And the tongue when meditation, I go to meditation retreats on the orphaned silence, with Dr. Joel, Michelle Levy, and you know, we do the title. And the difference there is, is that you're bringing in the kind of sorrow of the world to try and heal it and push it back out again. And believe me what Finnian just said, the world needs more of, we need more of that now to in his third step was self, another, and then the world, that whole idea of getting the world healed is, is a big one. And if we all spent some time sending that energy, that vibration out into the world, that's very big. And we get back to you regarding the other four universal principles. And I will get back to that I'm not going to skip them. But common if you would, about your seven step manifestation meditation, and how this practice is grounded in meditation, movement, and action. I go back to the days of George Leonard. And George was the founder of Escalon with Michael Murphy. And, you know, they had a process which was Tai Chi, Yoga, meditation, right? So you had the movement, then you had the meditation, and then you had the yoga and they blended it together. And I forget the name of it right now, but it still is internationally practiced, was a little longer practice, but boy, did you feel I mean, I can't even explain the feeling after that. So explain your seven step meditation practice.

Finnian Kelly
Yeah, so I definitely agree with the power of movement by for anything like I love moving before I do any meditation, because what it does is it forces you to get into your body. And that's ultimately what you need to do in the meditation is getting to a place where you're dropping out of the head and into this intelligence source. So the seven step manifestation process of created is a way to really connect the subconscious and the conscious mind, getting them working together as like what I spoken before, because that's where creation happens. And something what we need to realize about the subconscious mind is it's very suggestible, very malleable. In this life, we came in and we will clean slates, and then we didn't have religion, we didn't have religious connections, we didn't have beliefs, it's all determined on what we were exposed to. And this is why I always laugh when people get so caught up in their beliefs, I went Do you know, if you were just born just down the road in a different house, you wouldn't have those beliefs, the same person, but you're just exposed to different things, you wouldn't be so attached to why we attach to these beliefs. So and suddenly, I just want to preface areas, I don't mind what you believe in, as long as it's serving you, as long as it's giving you the outcomes, the results, which actually and make you feel really great in life. So this process is a way to consciously manifest rather than unconsciously manifest because we are I can tell you, when people say I'm not a manifester, you are every single human being is a manifest that we're creating all the time. It's just a lot of the time it's unconscious. And that's why it's not working the way we wrote. So the seven steps that we do is first, you need to get clear on what it is that you want to manifest. It's honestly one of the hardest things for people to work out. People don't know what they actually want. So we need to get clear on what it is that you want, then we get connected, okay, we start breathing and getting into this nice alpha state that doorway to the subconscious where our brainwaves are start slowing down, we start connecting to what is the imagery that would represent that manifestation? And then what are the feelings that I would be feeling when I have that manifest manifestation? So we're getting clear, this is where the conscious mind these first three steps are conscious part, were manifesting imagery feeling, then we start getting into the subconscious and we go, alright, I'm entitled to receive this, and how would this look like move with the manifestation? Okay, so I'm manifesting, I want to have a particular role in a company. And I want to be doing this formal leadership. Well, I see myself in that leadership role and making giving directions to people working on projects, and I start feeling like it's actually happening right now. Because that's the key, the subconscious can't tell the difference between whether it's a visualization, exercise, or it's physically happening. So we've got to just get connected. And we're, we're living it. So we're feeling those emotions. So we can actually start programming the subconscious of what it feels like, we then to really bring it into a state of creation is we elevate it with one of these high emotions, with gratitude, with love with appreciation, it's like, I am so appreciative that I've got this new role, and we're getting connected to it. And we're feeling it. And then we say we want to that raise that high vibration, and then we get into the action bit, we start visualizing, okay, and this is the bit which a lot of people forget about, yes, you've created it, but you still have to go do it, you have to bring that manifestation to, so you start getting connected, okay, someone who has now got that role, what would they be doing? How would they be walking through life? Would they be applying for that job, whatever it is, and you start getting connected to that, and then you get off that chair, and you go do that. And then the key with the manifestation is, is you have to stay so connected to the belief that you have created something, yes, it hasn't come through in manifested form yet, but it's in the unmanifested form. And one of the challenges is, sometimes we get this evidence. For example, you might if you've been manifesting abundance, the next day, there might be a bill that comes through, and suddenly you're like, ah, look at me, my manifestation didn't work. That's not true. Your manifestation did work. The problem where that bill came from that was a manifestation from a month before that was an unconscious manifestation. So there's this period where we need to stay so connected. And yes, there's some evidence which say no, but we need to believe that we're creating and that's how the true manifest ISIS manifest ideas really bring things to life. They just have this complete belief that once they've created something, it's happening. They don't know exactly when but it will come to them.

Greg Voisen
Speak with you, if you would, about fear. I think that many people say it's false expectation appearing real. And in too many people it is the thing that stops them from ever getting into As with anything they could manifest, how would you advise somebody who has anxiety has fear isn't connected, eliminate or at least reduce that amount of fear that's stopping them.
Finnian Kelly
So it's very important. So fear, what is it just a low vibrational energy, love high fear low. Now when we're in a place of creation, we need to be in high vibrational frequency. So one of the key things of manifesting is, if you get into a place where you're getting into fear, you need to stop the manifestation straightaway, because you're actually going to do more damage. Because remember, the subconscious can't interpret your intent, it only actually makes it a judgment of exactly what you've experienced. So if you're experiencing fear or doubt, then it's going to believe that you can't create this. So we actually need to stop and get to a place where what's a manifestation that we can believe in? What is possible. And this is why we always need to speak with truth. So a lot of the time, like I'm getting better at speaking rather than saying, I'm the best speaker in the world, because you can't believe I'm getting better a speaker. But if I say I'm the best speaker in the world, well I then start my, my mind starts going well, no, there's people out there better than me. And suddenly, I'm in a place of disbelief. So that would be the first step. The next step with fear is to ask myself, like, where is this coming from? Fear is a byproduct of the ego, the ego doesn't like change. Now, the ego isn't your enemy, the ego is your friend, it actually keeps us alive. But it doesn't care whether you're alive, and in complete misery or an alive or thriving, it just wants to care that you're alive. So whenever we do something to make change, it has a belief that will potentially you might die in this in this change. So it wants to do everything it can to stop you doing it. So this is where the conscious mind, we need to work with, with the subconscious go know, consciously, I know that I'm going to be safe by making this change. What are the truths? Well, there's nothing to be fearful of in this present moment. It's an anticipation of an event occurring in the future. Do I have evidence that that's directly going to occur? And then often what's the worst case scenario, if that's occur, often, when we actually write these things down, suddenly, the event doesn't have as much pool or as much power over us. So getting clear on that. And then going back through the process, that's how we start eliminating fear because we sell and we take a little bit of action. And then we realize, Oh, my life didn't, I didn't die. Nothing really changed. And everything feels a little bit better. It's like that uncomfortable conversation. So many people don't have great relationships, because they're not willing to have the uncomfortable conversation, expressing how they feel or asking for their need. And when they actually do it, they realize often sometimes some good things happen. And then it starts opening up and then suddenly life becomes a lot easier. So just take that minimal action step.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, there's, obviously you know, this, but we the body itself and the Emilian. Brain, you're looking at homeostasis. And homeostasis is that state that doesn't want to actually move out it like you said, it's that protection mode. It's like, okay, well, if I'm going to stress the body, let's make sure we get back to homeostasis as quickly as possible, right, and it and you have to learn how to kind of break that pattern you in your grow priority. You speak about breath work, and the practice of breath flow, bringing more awareness and intent. And I think I expressed this on the pre interview. My son now is a certified breath worker. How do you help people do breath work and find more peace, empathy, and compassion for themselves and others, as a result of the breath work, because if you really do this, right, you can go exceptionally deep, extremely deep, and you can get in touch with areas of your life, where you're seeing there was pain, and use that to move through it.

Finnian Kelly
Yeah, so I love breath. Because when you think about it, it is the most important thing in our life. We can go for a period of time without eating without drinking a breath. We can't go very long without breathing. So it is literally life force to us. And what's interesting about breath, it's one of the few faculties in our body, which happens both unconsciously and consciously. So, breath just happens like we just breathe, but we can use breath to drive certain states in our, in our physical well being. And what's really interesting is when anything happens to us any form of stimulation, any event two things occur to us at all times. We get a sensation in our body, and the respiration changes our respiration changes. So we can start using breath to actually drive an emotional state. So we know that when we're feeling lots of love, we have nice, deep, slow breathing, then if we want to get into a place of love, we can actually drive the breath to get us into a place of love. And that's a really powerful place. Because it means that we don't have to be a victim of our current state of being, we can always get ourselves out of it. And we could do and I use this as a representation, I guide people through a visualization of a time where they feel a lot of love. And they start feeling this openness. And they feel their breath, expanding, they feel all these positive sensations. And then I start getting them to visualize remember a time when you're really in fear, or you're going through this hardship, and suddenly their breath closed off all these different things. Now, that was just through the act of visualizing, they've entered already occurred, but they had that exact same experience. So then I went, well, if you ever find yourself in a place where you've got short breath, and you're closed off, you don't have to, you don't have to stay in that state, you could just start mimicking the breath to get you into that more loving state again. And that's why I really love breathwork. And there's so many different styles of it. There's a great app, which is called other ship, which I'm actually about to be a breath guide on. And it takes you through all the different styles of breath. And you can regulate yourself within 30 seconds of breath, even just one conscious breath of true conscious breath. Because most of us the shallow breathing, conscious breath is breathing in from the lower abdomen up into the upper abdomen, letting flow up a little pause, and then breathing back out again. If everyone just had one breath, a bit more often a conscious breath was wouldn't be starting, there wouldn't be fights in relationships, it'd be incredible what we can do. And that's something which is free, you all have access to it. You all know how to breathe, just a little bit of intentionality, and everything can change in your life.

Greg Voisen
Another author said to me the other day, if Putin had just had more people, give him affection. He might not be the person he is today. But because of the lack of affection, and lack of love in his life, he is the tyrant that he is today. And, you know, I remember watching a video and it came from your website, or it came from wherever, but a woman and she is from Colorado, who is like the tantra coach, and she has all these people online lying down. I saw it, maybe you've seen this. And they're virtually having orgasms to get there. And I thought, wow, that's it's pretty fascinating what you can do with the breath work. And that was all through breath for them to get in touch. And in the joy universal priority, you speak about reading positive literature. And this show is inside personal growth, it's about all the positive. What are some of the things that you recommend reading, as well as the movements of dance and yoga? Because you spoke about that as well?

Finnian Kelly
Yeah, the joy priority is something that a lot of people forget about. It's a, it's one of the great things about being the human body is we have these senses, and we can have sex and we can eat and we can like go on adventures. And we need to celebrate that a lot of the time on the on the healing journey or the spiritual journey, it can get a little bit too serious, we need to remember that. Look, we're here to have joyful beings, like souls looked down on us and they come into the human experience. So that can have a bit of play. So great literature I really recommend is there's an author called Young Pablo, and his is a great poet on Instagram, and he has a couple of books go inward and connection, he's just about to release another one. And you can open that book anywhere. And this just tells it's just absolute beautiful wisdom is great wine to share with your partner as well, like sometimes he can, he can communicate what my intent is a lot better than I can. So a little message is really powerful. I also love the doubt a Ching, great, great philosophical book, and it just grounds me and I can just read a passage of that and I can, that passage can just keep evolving with me, which is really, really wonderful. So they're probably my favorite books. And then the act of movement is it's we're playful beings and one of the greatest things that I've done recently is before any meal, we now dance we put on a song and whether it's with my partner or where we have friends over and we Just start dancing. And it's amazing what happens to people like people's, their faces start lighting up, they, they get a little bit more excited and we drop down to their meal. And it's almost like our form of prayer. And it's, it's such an easy way to bring that practice into our life. And then just any movement in the morning, I love doing a kundalini yoga routine where it's like seven different stretches for the spine, a spine is our sort of gateway to the sort of higher realms, and it's not meant to be one, operating one plane, it's meant to be twisting and rotating. And if we have a healthy spine, we have a healthy body. So I do that, and I definitely find it. It allows me to drop into my meditation a lot deeper, because it feels like when I open up and twist things, just these stories, and this low vibrational energy just comes out. And then I can actually drop into the meditation in a lot deeper practice.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, people are meditating that way, and I'm devotee of self realization fellowship. And you kind of look at the crown chakra, you know, where you're aligning, and then bringing the alignment of the chakras in, you're going to find a vibratory level, that's going to take you to a whole new place. Once you start to get in that level, you know, some people say, Well, I see pulsating purple, I see pulsating, white light. When you come out of those kinds of meditations, you come out in a completely unique different state of intentionality. And how you would live your life, even just how you would walk down the street, how you would meet another person, you know, we're all so much in a hurry, that we missed the little things. When we walked down the street, we miss to say the hi to the person who helped bag the groceries, I really appreciate that it could be gratitude for you. And you don't have to be afraid to say that stuff. You should be saying that. And you know, you speak about incorporating the five priorities into one's day. Could you provide the listeners with an optimal, intentional, and I used to say, on purpose day might look black? And I always said, if, you know, if a Canberra was following you, and I took footage of 12 hours of your day, and I just followed Finnian. Would you really like what you saw? Or then what would you change if the camera followed you?

Finnian Kelly
Well, the good thing is I have had that done. I did a documentary The National Geographic and I had cameras following me 20 hours a day. And it was a great experience, because it really highlights about like, Yeah, you think you're doing this, but actually, this is how you're being perceived. So I'm very glad and I could honestly answer

Greg Voisen
Where is that documentary from my listeners, we can see it.

Finnian Kelly
So if you search undercover Angel Finnian Kelly with National Geographic, you'll be able to find somewhere it's like, streamed on all the different things it was done a few years ago, but it's a really fun, really fun documentary,

Greg Voisen
I'm gonna put a link for my listeners, undercover Angel. Awesome.

Finnian Kelly
So incorporating things into a day, I like to think of things as stacks. So how do we stack the different priorities so we get a balanced approach. And I have these morning stacks, afternoon stacks in the evening stacks, and ultimately the most important in the morning in the evening. And I really think a morning routine starts in the evening. So really, it's one routine, it just has sleep in between. So for example, a morning stack, this is something I do every morning, I wake up a smile for 17 seconds, it brings that joy through me, I have a cold shower, I do some movement with meditating, I do journaling, to really get that creative side. And then I do a heart coherence meditation. And I've just stacked in five different things in a really, really easy way. Nighttime, it might be gratitude to do service. So like thinking about how I'm serving other people reading my day and reflecting to see how I've grown, working out my top priorities for the next day. So I'm working on what I'm creating, reading some positive literacy, let's have some joy, and maybe some breath to just really get into a nice loving state. And these things don't have to take that long. You can actually do a stack within five minutes and you can hit all of those different five priorities, but the key is getting connected to them. The reason why I created these five priorities of an intentional being is because a lot of people are in this trap. And this feeling of lack that they don't know their purpose and their passion. We've come a lot a little bit too addicted to purpose and passion in the modern day world. And it's often built around the external about what are you doing for others? And what are you creating, and a lot of for a lot of people, they're just like, Well, I'm not good enough, because I don't have that. And I went well, once, if we actually just connected back to why we're here as a human being. And maybe if you did some love each day showed love yourself and loved others, maybe you did something to grow, you then serve someone else, you had some joy, and you created something. Even if you didn't know your purpose and passion, I guarantee by the end of the day, you would have felt like you had a purposeful day, and you would have felt like there was passion for life. So this is a way to ground you and to start giving yourself permission to go don't worry, if you don't know exactly what your passion is, just be passionate to be human being a good human being. Don't worry, if you don't know your purpose, just be a purposeful human being live with intentionality. And suddenly, you'll feel great. And before you know it, you're probably going to find your purpose and your passion anyway.

Greg Voisen
Well, every one of those stacks, had different actions. And I think the most important thing is if you're energized through this whole process, and it continues, as I say, as to manage energy, we only have so much energy in a day, how you manage it, and how you use it. It's important. If you took Finnian stacks and apply them, I could almost guarantee you're going to have more positive energy, you know, 100%? And then what are you going to? What are you going to create with that positive energy? You know, it's not about consuming, it's about creating, and what you're talking about is things we can create for ourselves and others, even if it's just creating a moment, a moment of love, a moment of gratitude, a moment of respect, a moment of all of these things, that's what you do Finnian If you were to leave the listeners with actionable stacks, activities that would leave the greatest impact on stress levels, mood enhancement, and being more present for others, what would the prescription look like?

Finnian Kelly
Well, I wanted to just touch on what you just said, because it's super important is that we are overwhelmed, stressed society now. And I think it's because we're operating in a paradigm that we have limited time. And we're so focused on time that we know that this constraint likes time, yes, we have 24 hours in a day. But if we change our story to get connected and go, well, energy is more important. And energy, we actually don't have limitations of energy, you can create energy just by doing one of these actions, like if you start breathing, suddenly, you're going to have more energy. If you do a loving kindness act for someone else, you're going to have more energy, and then suddenly, that will break down the story that we're constrained. And we'll have be able to have a lot more impact. So the number one actionable thing that I want people to do is start measuring their day by energy rather than time and stop realizing stop this, this story that one hour of time is equal to another hour of time. What do I mean by that? Some people, if you go an hour with a low vibrational person, you're going to come away, not in a very good state, you're going to feel drained after that experience, if you're doing work that doesn't light you up. But if you spend an hour an hour with someone positive, like if I spend an hour with you, Greg, I come away and that wasn't an hour lost to me, I got so much energy through it. And then that's going to play off in other parts of my day. And it's that saying that if you don't have time to meditate, this Zen proverb, proverb, if you don't have time to meditate for one hour, you need to meditate for two, because the act of giving up that time will give you more energy, which will then will collapse time throughout the day. So effectively, what I'd love people to see themselves do is to see themselves as a battery. And throughout the day go where's my energy app? Did this did this activity give me more energy? Or did it drain energy from me? And if you got clear on that, and just started living life with things that gave you more energy, rather than things that were taking your energy, your life would dramatically change. You wouldn't even need a vision for where you're going. You wouldn't even need goals. Life would dramatically change you transform into a more positive, creative, joyful, loving being, because it all comes back to energy. That's our guiding force.

Greg Voisen
It is and managing it is done on both the conscious and subconscious levels. And I think what we don't realize is and how much the conscious mind sometimes takes over, and doesn't allow us to get into. So full presence, right. And I think Dalai Lama said, and I'm going to kind of end our positive podcast on a quote that hangs on my wall over here. And he said, in the end, what you're going to be remembered for is, who you loved, who loved you, and how much you let go. Now, if you think about that, because one of yours is love, you know, the opposite of fear was love. If love was the intention, and it's who you loved, who you who loved you, and how much you let go, exactly what you said, you would be a goal magnet, right? It would just literally, you would attract all of this great energy to you, and just exuberance, and wonderment would flow out of you. So I appreciate you Finnian for the approach that you're bringing to all generations. Just because Finnian is young, doesn't mean that he's not wise, he's extremely wise. And I'd recommend that all of you go to the website, and download his guidebook, on intentionality, we'll put a link to that. And then get back in touch with him for around coaching events he's going to do, you'll see it there at the website, and the website is very easy. It's just Finnian FYI, Nia, n kelly.com. There, you're gonna see all the resources about him testimonials, events, work with me, press that button, work with me and get in touch with Finnian. And get your wife balanced and aligned between subconscious and conscious. And you're going to find miracles are going to happen Finnian Namaste to you. Thank you for being on inside personal growth. Being a guest and spending a little bit of your time and your wisdom, informing my listeners about little things they can change in their life. And you mentioned so many, but little things they can change in their life that will make a big difference. And I love the part you said about beliefs. I used to have a saying you don't have to believe everything you think. Think about that. Because the reality is when you think something doesn't mean it has to become a belief.

Finnian Kelly
Okay, so true. Like we don't we don't believe everything that happens in our dreams. We go oh, God, that dream was crazy. We need to be doing that throughout the day a lot more as well. Crazy thought not mine and life would become a lot easier.

Greg Voisen
It really would. Thanks so much for being on Finnian.

Finnian Kelly
Thanks so much, Greg.

powered by

Joining me for this podcast is Bottleneck Distant Assistants’ owner and the author of Quit Repeating Yourself: How Today’s Leaders Are Using Systems and Processes to Grow Their Business The Right Way, Jaime Jay. He is also a veteran US Army paratrooper who received the Army Achievement Medal for Meritorious Service.

Jamie is committed to “The Ripple Effect” and loves supporting ideas, bravery and collaboration with entrepreneurs who want to grow their business which both his business and his book can attest that. Bottleneck Distant Assistants is an outsourcing agency founded in 2016. Its mission is to cultivate and identify remote-based dedicated distant assistants for business leaders who want to build deep personal relationships with real human beings.

Meanwhile, his book Quit Repeating Yourself was written for business leaders, managers and entrepreneurs to help generate a sustainable business model and explores the intersections of culture, leadership, systems, processes, recruiting and hiring.

If you want to learn more about Jamie Jay, his company and his book, you may click here to be directed to his website.

Happy listening, everyone! Thank you!

THE BOOK

Many business leaders don’t know how to get out of their own way.

In Quit Repeating Yourself, author Jaime Jay shares how he built a seven-figure business by focusing on the power of creating systems and processes so he could stop doing the wrong things and focus on doing his best work.

After other business professionals kept asking him to explain what he was doing differently, Jay compiled his best strategies and systems, hoping readers could learn from his successes and his mistakes. Through personal stories and professional examples, he teaches leaders how to build a strong company foundation using small and actionable steps.

THE AUTHOR 

Jaime Jay is the founder and managing director of Bottleneck Distant Assistants. Jaime has been sourcing dedicated distant assistants from the Philippines since 2006.

Bottleneck is a team of human assistants embracing deeply connected relationships, digitally, for ambitious leaders wanting their time back by identifying, hiring and building authentic, long-lasting distant relationships.

Bottleneck supports entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, C-level executives, founders, business advisors, consultants, legal professionals, real estate executives, professional Speakers, podcasters, physicians and many more.


You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Jamie Jay Interview
SPEAKERS
Greg Voisen, Jamie Jay

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Springfield, Missouri. I used to live in Missouri, but I used to live in a town called Webster Groves, Missouri. Not it's a long way from Springfield. But we have Jamie Jay joining us. And, Jamie, if you would hold up your book, Quit Repeating Yourself. We're going to be talking about that book right there. And Jamie, and everything else, and I think I love with Jamie's website, it's just Quit Repeating Yourself.com if you want to go there. And I love his quote, right at the top, he says if you don't believe in your vision 100% why in the world would anyone else believe in it? Jamie Jay, the CEO of Bottleneck Distant Assistants. Jamie, I'm going to let my listeners know a little bit about us the founder and shareholder to bottleneck distance assistance founded in 2016. In 2016, a bottleneck is an outsourcing agency that assists leaders in cultivating and identifying remote based distant assistance. After 12 year career in corporate America, Jay studied Business Administration and Management at Florida Institute of Technology and ventured out on his own as an entrepreneur in 2006. And as he said, He's unemployable. You couldn't you couldn't employ this guy? Well, that's a brief bit of introduction about you. But I think you have a story about the military yourself and kind of how you got here, and really, about why you would you know, you would get in this business and write a book about repeating yourself, tell us a little bit more about yourself. And really, your choice to write this book and help small entrepreneurs really figure out processes procedures, so they can make themselves more efficient.

Jamie Jay
First and foremost, Greg, thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate you. Sharing this time with me and allowing me to share a little bit of my story. Because I believe, I think I might be able to help some other people out or at least just maybe open up our treat some ideas for other people, because of some of the experiences that I've had, and what the beautiful part about each of us individually is we all have our own experience that nobody else in the world has had. There's a lot of similarities and things like that. But what I really appreciate is, is being able to share what it is that I've gone through and the journeys that I've gone because other people may experience pain and things like that, they may have not have experienced pain to the level of I've experienced, or they may have experienced it even worse than what I've done, but pink and stuff like that happens. And it's it feels just as painful to someone else based on their position. So the reason I wrote this book was because I kept getting a lot of the same questions asked of me. And I finally thought, I should just write a book. And I should just answer all these questions that I continually get asked. And I've been doing this now 16 years. So I've really learned a lot about the hiring process. And in creating a really positive culture, and how important it is to have systems and processes within your business. As a matter of fact, those are the three different parts to this book. That's the main reason that I wrote the book with the hopes that for the all the people that asked me the questions, maybe someone else doesn't even know to ask that question, but it might help them out and benefit them. Because we all know if you know if I've been there and done that and went through the trenches and worked hard doing something that someone else is now maybe just getting into, or they are blocked and can't seem to kind of overcome that. Maybe the gift of reading an excerpt from the book can help them kind of overcome that challenge.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, look, the devils in the details. There's as many Todoist applications and asana and all these kinds of things that are designed to keep people on task. Those are the tasks. There are methodologies out there. There's a thing that a guy has it productivity.com that’s called the bento box, right? Large, Medium small focus on what do you want to do? Are you going to eat the frog, the big one all at once? Are you going to do these all these things? But that's all in kind of every day each of us gets in that whether we like it or not. We step into a world of that because we're in technology world, and we have associated tasks for our day. And many of us don't delegate those How many of us do them and we're doing, as you'll probably tell people, you know, $17 an hour stuff when you're supposed to be making 125 an hour, right? But your book is entitled Quit Repeating Yourself. And you mentioned that coming up with the title and the name of the book was kind of an extreme challenge for you. Tell us a story about why it was so difficult for you to, you know, come up with that title, when it just seems so obvious.

Jamie Jay
You know, and I have to thank Fiona Qualls because she was working with me at the time she was helping me with my marketing and stuff. And she says, Jamie, you always say, Quit Repeating Yourself, why don't you just name the book that and I'm like, that's a freaking great name. At that point, I was doing like the t shirt entrepreneur, and like, all these different things. And you know, I threw that out there to a couple of friends that are like, ah, that doesn't really. And so she, so I have to give credit where credit's due. That is all due to Fiona calls for coming up with that. And it was it was just amazing. But it really resonated. As soon as she said it, I was like, that’s it. No other. That's it, I will write to the publisher, I said, I got the name of the book. This is it. And it was one of the biggest challenges. Now a lot of times when you find success, there is success in some kind of a recipe where you repeat that success, right? So you want to repeat doing what's working. But always be able to explore new things where I came up with Quit Repeating Yourself. Just like if you're a programmer, they know dry, don't repeat yourself. So if you have a line of code here, you can always resource that code and reuse it somewhere else by you know, programming to work where you don't have to rewrite the code over and over and over again, because chances are mistakes happen. The reason I say Quit Repeating Yourself is stop doing the things that are not your best work. Stop doing the wrong things and focus on doing what's your best work. And what that means is a lot of people repeat themselves every single day for me, one of my biggest repeaters that I quit, and thankfully, so was checking my email. I spent 90 days I remember I mentioned it about 90 minutes a day on email. There's studies of the average person spending more time than that on email. For me, I thought that was a lot. But that's 90 minutes, I spent about 10 minutes a day on email now, because I've delegated that task, I've stopped repeating myself, do you realize how much time that saved me and a year, two and a half months, two and a half months of time, I've now found for myself. And I

Greg Voisen
Can apply that to being with your dog being with your wife doing the things you like to do, and enjoying life lot. And I think that, you know, it's one thing to like, shut the screen down and have dark time to just be creative. And it's really important that we take that time to be creative. And you have a section in the book, that culture eats strategy. That's it's been said many times, and a sad story of your mom being admitted to the hospital. And I think this is important because for everybody out there, there. You know, you're wanting to build an organization with people and processes and systems that the culture is vibrant, alive. And people are engaged. And they like what they do. If you would share this story with our listeners about culture and the hospital and your mom.

Jamie Jay
Yeah, I'd love to. And I'll first start off by saying to there's a gentleman His name is Brian Scudamore. It started wanting 100 got junk, ote brands, he's doing very well now. But when he started his business, he had 11 employees, and he walked in one day, and none of them are smiling. They were not happy to be there. And you know what he did? He fired them. He started over and he lost clients. But he started over and he's so happy that he did that. So there's a reason that the first part of my book is all about culture. Because I think you have to know what your vision is, you have to know what you aspire to achieve. And you have to be able to define what your mission is. So your vision, your mission, your unique core values and your provocative point of view. And there before I get to my mom's story, this is this is the I have to give this underlying theme of why I started off with this story. Because if you don't nail a culture and surround yourselves with people that are fighting to attack this vision together, they can do it in different ways. But as long as we're all charging that same hill, maybe it's you know, we're going around the sides, we're coming up the middle, we're coming up the back, we're doing it different ways, but we all know what that target is. That's a very powerful attribute to have to tie in your systems and processes and hiring and all of that stuff that comes along Hang with it. So the reason why I'm so focused on having a positive culture versus a very toxic culture or a culture that's different is the very, very simple thing that I realized. In the very first part of 2020. I got a call on about January 3. My mom had been administered to, admitted to the hospital. Okay, she wasn't doing very good health wise, she's in California. I'm in Missouri. And so I went out to see her and she couldn't breathe very well. And she was having a tough time. And I literally found out the morning, I called my assistant Raina, who's now our Director of Operations. I said, hey, my mom's sick. She just kept putting on us. Well, I gotta go. And we had a ton of stuff on the docket. Like, this was right before COVID like things were going great. And I said, she said, Jamie, proof. This one always gets me. So she said, Jamie, don't worry about it. We got your back. So I took off, just left. She canceled all my appointments. I flew out there. And as soon as I landed, like, my mind was going crazy. But as soon as I landed, I was like, Okay, wow, shoot, you know, there's no one running the company right now. So I pulled over on my way to the hospital after I got the rental car, and I said, Hey, Raina, you know, what are we she's like, don't worry about it, Jamie, I'll handle this stuff. Now, here's the kicker. I spent about three weeks there. And I thought, Oh, my mom had open heart surgery, she's gonna get better. So I stayed through the surgery and then stayed a couple of days after I said, Mom, I gotta get back to work. She said, I know, I get it, I get it, you know, and she's on a breather and all this stuff, it was very hard for her to breathe. So it's pretty emotional time for me. So I picked up, head back and come back to work here. The next day, I get a call from her doctor saying, hey, when you come back and said, I figured I'd come back in about a week and a half, two weeks, just gotta get goes. You might, you might want to come back sooner. And I was like, what? You didn't say anything I go she dying. She said, you might want to come back sooner. He wouldn't answer the question. So I'm like, great. So I said, I just got the worst call from the doctor. I gotta go. She said, don’t worry, I got your back again. And I'm like, and this time I wouldn't bring my wife out. Because at this point, I'm pretty scared. I'm doing my mom my whole life, right? Like my best friend. Like we got along really good. Went back out there. This is now middle of February, into February. And thank the Lord I went back, had a visit the night before she passed. My cousin came in. She was a nurse. She said Jamie, have you told your mom, it's okay to go because the whole family came in and my mom said, Am I dying? And we're like, No, you're good. Well, we'll get through this. And I now know much better understand what palliative care is. But she told me, Jim, you need to tell her. Well, the next morning, everybody else had gone home. It's about 632 when I wake up, because I hear a breath and then nothing and a breath and then nothing. And I was like, wow. So I went and sat next to her and grabbed her hand. And I felt she barely moved it. But I felt it. And I said this point, I believe it was about 635 or so. And Sarah had called me my wife and said, hey, you know, you want some coffee? And I said yes, please bring me some coffee. And I said, I said, Mom, it's Jamie, I love you. It's okay, I'm going to be okay. Two minutes later, she had passed. So it's almost like she was holding on. So I called Sara and I said, don't worry about the coffee, just come here mom just died. So that was a pretty challenging time for me to say the least. Family and all of that and going through that process. Now I had to kind of take care of her things. And that's why I really promote living wills. Get them if you don't have them for all of your loved ones and do it today. Do it today there. It's not expensive. If you don't want it to be you can literally go online, get a living will go get it, you know, by a? What do you call those people that record the documents,

Greg Voisen
And notary. Thank..

Jamie Jay
You so much, Lord MIT. Go get it notarized and then just put it in a file. If you don't want to change it later change they get it today. So longer story longer. This is now March 6 10th, somewhere in there. We're on our way back and COVID just now breaking out and I finally get back around the second week of March. And my company was doing better now. After me being through all of that chaos. Almost two months later. We have more clients. The company is running effectively. It didn't burn down. Everybody's happy everybody's still working hard, everybody kind of just opened when they did work for other people. That is an incredible culture. And that is something that I wished everybody could experience. That's why it's so important to surround yourself with people that are fighting for that vision. So that's why I wanted to kind of preface that story with my little story and overview about, well, you

Greg Voisen
Know, it's when you come to a point in life where you you’re, you're seeing your finitude you know, the end. In this case, I don't know all the circumstances buying your mother, but, you know, I lost two brothers in the last two years. So I understand and, and they weren't, they weren't real, you know, one of them was like 77, and the other ones 70. And, yes, being prepared. But importantly, your story here is about the culture that you create in your business. It's as much about those people stepping up, taking over and continuing to grow your business while you were away. And I think if every business owner could say, that's what I could do, you know, I'm just going to leave, I'm going to travel the world for three months, I'll be back and see how things are going. But most people are so attached, they can't. And you state that you created a movement called the ripple effect to make an impact on the world. Tell us more about the movement. And how are you involving and motivating people in that ripple effect, because your story was very compelling.

Jamie Jay
Thank you. Well, the ripple effect is amazing. And basically, the ripple effect is, you take care of yourself first health and your own backyard, your finances, and you have to put yourself in a position to declare that up. I know, it's time for me. And I believe you mean, I was homeless at a point in time, terrible credit rating, I didn't have anything, nothing. But I had to figure out a way to build it up so I can take care of myself in my own backyard. Then once you build up a little bit, you take care of your own self, maybe you can take care of some different things locally. And regionally, then as you grow nationally, then even hope for a ripple effect, a positive ripple effect growing globally. And I'm proud to say I've been able to achieve that. And what we do by the ripple effect is we teach this within bottleneck and even with our external distant assistants that work for our clients. We teach the ripple effect. And what that means is do something nice for somebody else. And then we'll always come back, always do something nice when we have extra interviews for people here and they go on to leave, I'm the first person that's going to sign a letter of recommendation if they are going on to live something for their journey, if they want to use bottleneck as a stepping stone to get to something that they truly want to get to. I'm all for it. If they are aspiring to be their own CEO one day and there, I'm want to help them get there. I think that's amazing is one of the questions we asked when we do interviews is, okay, what are you going to do when you leave bottleneck? And people are like, wait, what I really want to work? Well, what are you going to do when you leave? Because then that way we can do two things. Either we can define the role for them. Or we can help them on their way to get them to where they want to get to. Now the ripple effect is this, I do something kind for someone else to help them. They do something kind for themselves, for their community. And what's nice is that could be business. So I could help out a client by saving them time they earn more money, they do bigger things, they invest more locally, that other business can do better, because now more money is coming into this other business. They're paying their employees more. It's a ripple effect. And one of the stories I had we had a wonderful lady that worked for us, Christine, she was amazing. And she played violin and her goal was to go to Juilliard. Now, she didn't quite make it to Juilliard yet, but she did get to play in the Manila symphony. And we talked about a year, year and a half after she left. And she said, Jamie, I just want you to know the ripple effect is in full motion here. And I said, what do you mean, she goes, Well, I am now teaching kids that can't afford to play violin. I got some violins donated. So we meet once a month and I teach them how to play violin. So she's giving back to her local community. And she said, Jamie, I just want to say thank you for helping me learn what the ripple effect is all about. And now she's teaching that to others and hopefully that will just keep growing and growing and growing ripple effect. So that's what the ripple effect

Greg Voisen
Is. Well, I agree with you and obviously this show I do helps the homeless, everything that comes from this goes to the homeless. So all the ads that we put out for you and people and we do this together, because there's a minimum donation people make I'm out giving it to the homeless, but the most important thing is what will result All of our problems in the world, as you said, is empathy and compassion. The more empathy and compassion people have, and they understand that's a, you know, emotional intelligence quotient, the better the world is going to become, and the better their world is going to become. And in creating the foundation, you said that culture is king. But business leaders sometimes get lost. Where do you think business leaders should start and developing a new foundation to avoid getting lost?

Jamie Jay
Well, there's a couple of different areas. But what I think should be done is take some time. And, and I know this is crazy, and you've probably never heard this before. But say, take some time to think about thinking. This is crazy. I know. But just take some time. As a matter of fact, one of the my words of the year was focused finding opportunities by creating uninterrupted strategy sessions. Yeah. When use take some time to focus.

Greg Voisen
Do you know who used to do that, Jamie, sorry to interrupt, but I know, I just interviewed Stephen, Mr. Covey Steve Covey's son. Oh, wow. He just wrote a book called trust and inspire. And the podcast came out yesterday. You know, his father, they used to have hundreds of employees at Franklin Covey, they still do. And they would say, if your door is closed, and you're thinking, that's what we want you to do here. And just like you just said, is, you know, take time to think about your thinking. Because the reality is, it's that you want to call it distorted perspective, thinking that you want to readjust and recalibrate, to come back to a world of aliveness and wonderment and creativity and innovation, and all that. And that's what you're advocating. So I kudos to you. Thank you. Some companies allow their employees to think the cultures or their, you know, their they build the cultures around that. It isn't always small companies, because there's a lot of fear. That dominates that there isn't. It's a command and control environment versus a trusted inspire environment. But what I see is you've got to trust and inspire environment, versus command and control. Are you and ask those questions, right? Absolutely. So you say that in business strategy involves many moving parts, you also defined and shared five areas that can help identify the foundation of strategy. Can you discuss those five areas to our listeners, and what those areas would kind of help them in their business because your book is about quitting and quitting repeating yourself. So these are the foundational strategies that can help you with that.

Jamie Jay
Absolutely. And going back to thinking about thinking, this is one of those things that you can think about. Because you have in my opinion, the way it works for me, everybody's different. But if I have an idea or a concept, I have to come up with a strategy. And then I build my vision and mission into that strategy. And from there I can, I can really launch something that that I can believe in. Because it right before I go into these five things, there's one thing that needs to happen, aligning with strategy, culture, hiring, owning a business, there's one thing that you have to have. And that's passion. Because no matter what you do, as a business owner, business leader, Team Leader, whatever it is, no matter what you do, you're probably doing something that you have some kind of passion around, hopefully, no matter what you do, you're gonna hit some dark times. And I believe in the 7525 rule. If 25% of the time I'm doing stuff in the trenches and doing stuff like strategy and planning, like, like that stuff. Like, it's not a lot. It's not very sexy. This is stuff that you're doing when no one else is looking. But it's necessary. Because I know the 75% of my time, I get to talk to Greg, I get to, you know, go around and talk about my book, I get to spend time with my wife, I get to do the things that I love, and I thrive. And when I get calls from clients that said, thank you for helping me get my time back. That means the world this is this is why I do what I do. I thought at first when I did, I was doing it for the money, but it's not true. It is not true. It's to affect people's lives, the ripple effect. So if you can have that passion, it'll take you through the difficult times so that you can you realize hey, I'm gonna reward myself on the other end of this thing, because of what this is. That's why you have that vision.

Greg Voisen
I think they say that if you love what you do, you don't work. And I think the word work is, is really outdated. It's an old fashioned term that we use a vernacular that's there, I get that the most of the world's is workplace work, world, we work we work. But if you have the passion you have that you've exemplified so far, just in the last 20 minutes. It's not work for you. It's a love what you do. And to get there requires that people fine tune their own instrument to determine what it is that they do love. Just like you said, in my onboarding, I asked people, what are you going to do when you leave? You know, bottleneck. And they're like, what they're, you know, they're confused by that. Because you're not certain if that is the passion, they found a certain number of them are going to stay and say, well, this is the passion with Jamie, I'm going to stay here. I really, really liked this. But maybe it is that stepping stone. So you know, you create a, a systems driven Foundation. And let's talk about it, that's what you're about is creating systems for business that provides confidence needed to scale effectively. And so you just said, Hey, look, I moved in, I saved myself two and a half months of time, by outsourcing all my email to an assistant who helps answer that email, or however you did it, what advice can you give our listeners about creating the system that works? Okay, and now we're in the meat and potatoes here, this is this is like, okay, am I going to be able to turn off that screen and actually give myself two and a half months? And then what mindset shifts state has to occur for me, I guarantee you that bottleneck has the resources. But you need to bridge someone's fear of that, right? Because a lot of times they think, Jamie, they've got to answer that email themselves or won't get answered, right? You know, they think if they delegate it, and they delegate something, it's not going to get done properly. How do you ease the fear and then help them set up that system very easily

Jamie Jay
In one simple statement that I learned from Scott BB, do something as difficult as the last time you were ever going to do it. Say that again, document, do something as if it was the last time you were ever going to do it. Okay, Document. And for those of you that I didn't get to answer the five steps of the strategy, you can go to page 90 And my book of Quit Repeating Yourself. And you can see there,

Greg Voisen
Why don't you just say, why don't you just say the five steps real quick.

Jamie Jay
It's planning strengths and weaknesses, efficiency, competitive advantage. Those are the those are the five steps there. And I go into detail on those. And I don't want to waste too much time because we're limited here. But I go into those different steps there. But I think there's the questions that you asked right now it's a perfect launch off to doing something as if it was the last time you're ever going to do it. How do you get rid of the fear that someone else is going to make a mistake with your baby, with your machine with your system? Well, first and foremost, get out of your own way, get over yourself. I one of the hardest things that I did and still continue to do. Meaning that we've had people working in the company right now that are basically creating sales strategies and things and they're making decisions. And sometimes it's like, I'm not involved in that meeting, like, Okay, should I? But no, I, they're here for a reason. They're super smart. Why would I hire them if I didn't expect them to make decisions on my behalf? And so getting out of your own way is the very first thing to do. But how can you do that effectively, you need to get what's in your head out of your head, you need to document everything. So what I did is I came up with this little email campaign thing or this little email delegation tool. And basically what I did is I wrote in every time I wrote an email that seemed very familiar, and I wrote it down, so these are the people that you don't talk to, don't talk to my doctor, don't talk to my CPA, you know, this is a person I need to talk to, if this is personal, put it over here. And we have these little these little color coding things in my email. So when I wake up in the morning, I see a checklist of things that are just for Jamie, these other things have been handled already, because I've delegated those tasks now, because this happened overnight. No. The day you start should be today, to start getting what's in your head out of your head. The way that you do things in your business. You need to document them that way. This does two things and this is super fun. Powerful for any kind of delegation or creating systems, two huge things, the more tasks you delegate, and you document for those tasks, the more time is going to free up. So the two things that's going to help you with is number one, when you delegate a task to somebody that why doesn't, why wouldn't you delegate a task to somebody else? Why, what's the first thing that you would do?

Greg Voisen
Well, I think the biggest thing you're gonna find for most entrepreneurs is, and they're going to tell you this straight out, Jamie, their values don't match mine and their timeliness for possibly replying to someone isn't going to be as quick as mine would? Nor would it be as well thought out as mine?

Jamie Jay
Exactly. So that's the first thing you have to..

Greg Voisen
Change in the email going to be the same is the way in which I approached this with emotional intelligence going to be the same, versus giving it to someone who maybe doesn't quite have all those skills yet, but you're asking them to do it?

Jamie Jay
Exactly. If you don't, in essence, you don't trust them, right? You don't trust this person to respond. Because again, this is my baby, I don't want to ruin this isn't my business. This is my team. This is I don't want anybody else affecting me in a negative manner. I don't want anybody else to see my work come across differently than what I would promote it to be right. Therefore, number one, setting expectations. That's the first thing, and by you documenting exactly what it is that you do, and giving that to someone else, having them review that document and get back to you and say, Okay, I understand, Greg, that you want to send this email out to this party? And this is what you want it to say, is that correct? Okay. Yes, or that is correct. But add this and this and that, okay, perfect. This is the second thing, give time for them to learn to be able to extract data from your head, so that you can now delegate that effectively with confidence. Now, all of a sudden, when they come back, and they review that email with you, in the beginning, they're going to be reviewing a lot more time, you're going to be spending a lot more time with this person. But now you're building confidence, you're like, wow, yes, that's it. That's it. And pretty soon, you'll start seeing a lot of the stuff will slowly start coming off of your plate. And you're gonna have the confidence to now delegate even more responsibility, because now they're starting to learn your tone, your voice. And if you see me right at the end of the day before you and I leave, most likely, I will say bye for now, I have a habit of saying that. The reason is, because I hope we talk again, if you talk to anybody on my team, they will say bye for now, they've learned my tone, they've learned my voice. If right now you were to receive an email from my assistant, you would be hard pressed to know that email was not from me, other than the fact it says Ella, it's her picture. They're not me. Because we've learned each other's rhythms. And she's learned my voice and my tone, we understand the vision and the mission, what we're trying to do, and that comes through time. But that is probably the biggest thing and the hardest thing for people to get rid of. But once it actually happens, and it occurs, it's magical. It is absolutely magical.

Greg Voisen
Well, so you're in essence saying that you're allowing them to get into your head and learn the way you would do something. And then from a repetitive standpoint, you say stop repeating yourself. You're creating and or drafting. In this case, maybe templated emails or emails that could be used effectively, to answer certain emails that come in. So again, two and a half months is a lot of time. It can give you a nice vacation and more time with your family, and time to do the things you want. You speak about workflow, and you said that you break the workflow down in two parts, the how, and the what ifs. Speak with the listeners about the two parts and why they're important in every business process.

Jamie Jay
Thank you for asking this. This is this is pretty easy concept. But it is time does take some time to complete this. We have all of our tasks documented for every single task we have in our companies, including writing a book now I actually did I actually documented how to write a book during the time of me going through that process. But basically what it is we have two different workflow documents that we have for each task. One is the how to that's the step by step. How do I do this step one, go to this site. Step two, put in your login credentials. Take a little screenshot every time you click the mouse button since we are now such a tech in environment, every time you click the mouse button, that's another step. Don't skip a step. It's really important because if you give that task to someone else, they don't need to be asking you Hey, I got last year we didn't At Forest, oh, you know what, go here and do this, make sure you're very clear, making sure it's third grade simple. The what ifs are. Now all of a sudden, during some processes or some workflows, there is other parties that need to take, do their part in order to complete that task. So in instance, say it's an onboarding task, and you've reached out to a potential client and you said, hey, you know, when would you like to set up your appointment? Well, what happens if they don't respond? How much time do we give them? So what if so, if they don't respond, do this within three days, if they do respond within three days do this. So we actually document and have the what ifs? Yes, no, for every single thing. And then we finish off every single task with an identifiable signal. When I was selling websites, I always had scope creep, meaning that I sell somebody a website, and they always want one more thing. And one more thing and one more thing, I can never really get them to wrap it up. And I said, this is costing me too much money, I got to figure out a better way to do this. So what I did is I came up with a deployment kit. And in the very first meeting I had with this person, I said, okay, at the very end of this website, build, I'm going to send you a deployment kit. As soon as you tell me that you like the website, I'm going to send it to you when you receive that deployment kit. Anything else you need after the reception of that deployment kit will be an additional fee? Is that agreeable to you? Yes, I never had scope creep again. So we do signals for every single task, we delegate with the what ifs and the how tos

Greg Voisen
Are a great strategy. And you know, you have a delegation roadmap. It's a very helpful tool, speak about the delegation roadmap a little bit more, and how does it help us? And why should a business consider using a delegation roadmap? I don't have a picture right here of your roadmap. But for my listeners, you hold up the book again, you're gonna buy the book, and you'll get your delegation roadmap,

Jamie Jay
You will you can get the delegation roadmap, we have a free delegation roadmap, it's just in a Google Drive, you just simply make a copy. You don't have to put names in or anything like that. It's just a free copy. But basically, what it is, is this could be part of that deep thinking that we were talking about focus, finding opportunities by creating uninterrupted strategy sessions, take some time, get a cup of coffee Saturday morning, whenever and let your family members know, or whomever else is there. No, hey, on Saturday morning, I need an hour, just give me an hour, you know, and especially if you want to stay in good graces with your spouse, let them know about a week in advance that you plan on doing this. And there'll be good instead of telling them that morning when you should be outside gardening or doing something else, right. But the delegation roadmap is really cool. And it's simple. You simply list out every single task that you do in a given day, every single one, take the trash out, make phone calls, check my email, list those all out and assign two values to each of those. Number one, is that something you must do? Or can you delegate this? And number two, is it something that gives you energy? Or does it drain you of energy, the beautiful thing is everything that you must do that gives you energy, those are usually the things that you're going to spend your time on, that you're truly passionate about. And that makes you the most money or give you the most enjoyment out of life. For all the ones that have the that you can delegate that drain you of energy, those are usually the things you dislike doing the most. Now all of a sudden, you have a task list of all the things that you can delegate, and also drain you of energy. And now you prioritize that. Now maybe you have 20 things, oh my gosh, there's so many things I have to get done, take 19 of them and just get them out of your mind for right now. And focus on number one, what is that highest pain point? Now figure out a way to document what it is you do normally that just as nails on a chalkboard for you, so that you can delegate that task away, and then get the gist start working through it. 2345. And pretty soon before you know it, you have your own workflow library, so that when you are ready to hire somebody, you can now delegate that and they're going to be able to perform that task exactly the way you would because you wrote out the workflow for that.

Greg Voisen
Well, I reflect back on an interview that I did, with Dr. Jim lar, the power of full engagement, and Jim Lehrer says there's only one thing that we really have to do well, and that is energy management. And what you've spoken about is the depletion of energy by doing tasks that you either don't like or you're not good at. So let's just say you're not good at it. Versus those tasks which you excel at and your you really love doing which energize you. They give you more energy, they don't deplete your energy. And so if you were to leave the listeners with three main points to take away from the book, what would they be? And how do you recommend that they possibly just use these tools to transform their business and their lives and their perspective about life?

Jamie Jay
Thank you. Thank you for taking business and lives. Because I don't believe in work life balance, I just believe in life balance. Because if we're not passionate about where we're working, that's going to affect our life. There's no difference. It's one life. And we need to take advantage of it. To answer your questions. The first three things. First one, I encourage you to get the book, it's a relatively quick read. It really is. And it is, it's fairly topical. So it's easy, I think, for people to absorb. The second thing is, figure out what it is you want to do, what is your vision, you could have a vision, a mission, core values, but you don't necessarily know them. If you can't knock those out right off the top of your head. It might not be right for you. So maybe that would be the first thing I go through reimagine what your vision is, what your Do you really want to do, where do you really want to be? The third thing is once you do that, start designing your life by going through a delegation work. Checklist don't delegation roadmap, I'm sorry. Once you go through that delegation roadmap, I think, three, I think there's gonna be three things that are going to appear in your life all of a sudden, number one sense of accomplishment, number two direction, and maybe number three, some clarity, all of which goes in line at a time in this recording, which is April 2022, National stress Awareness Month. Yeah, these are things that trigger stress every single day, because there's always something on that to do list that you it's just gnawing at you. And it's preventing you from releasing a little bit of creativity. So yeah, those are probably be the three things. So…

Greg Voisen
Jamie, if my listeners wanted to get the book, we're going to put a link to Amazon, we're also going to put a link to Quit Repeating Yourself.com. There'll be a link there, you can get the book there, order it now. Those charts you talked about that are on Google Drive? Is there a way for them to get it without them getting the book? Or do they need to get the book and then

Jamie Jay
Get your what there is a way and I I'll have to have my since it's in the link? I don't have the because it's a it's a little bit longer link, I think, yeah, let me let me figure out, and I'm happy to send them so you can put them in your notes or whatever.

Greg Voisen
So we can put them in the blog. And then people can virtually, you know, up to see have a tool that they could use and then we can put a link to buying the book. But I always think, you know, sometimes people like to see stuff and it's a good opportunity. It's something you've used over and over. So great. We'll make sure that that goes up. Jamie, thanks for being on inside personal growth, sharing your wisdom, your knowledge, your expertise, about life, living life, and loving your work. Really loving what you do and creating a culture around you. That supports you doing what you love. I think that's so important. And it's been awesome having you on again for everybody. The book is Quit Repeating Yourself. Jamie J. And he's been joining us today from Springfield, Missouri. Thanks, Jamie. Thank you, Greg.

powered by

It is my honor to be joined by a brilliant entrepreneur, CEO, venture capitalist and management consultant – Philippe Bouissou. Phillipe is also a co-founder and Managing Partner at Blue Dots Partners LLC, a management consulting firm focused on top-line revenue acceleration for companies or business units with revenues between $10 million and $1 billion.

For this podcast, we talk about his new book, Amazon’s Best Seller in Business – Aligning the Dots: The New Paradigm to Grow Any Business. This book provides a clear answer to entreprenuers’ questions such as “What do you do to outpace the market and grow faster than competitors?” With all of Philippe’s experiences and accomplishments, Aligning the Dots is a good guide to accelarate any business.

If you want to know more about Philippe and his amazing works, click here to visit his website.

I hope you enjoyed listening to this engaging interview with Philippe.

THE BOOK

Amazon Best Seller in Business and Amazon #1 New Release in Business. It’s eight o’clock Monday morning.What do you do to outpace the market and grow faster than your competitors? Aligning the Dots provides a clear answer to that deceptively simple question.
Aligning the Dots introduces a new paradigm. It’s a universal, data-driven and prescriptive methodology, called A4 Precision Alignment™, designed to accelerate any business. Based on the profound insight that the maximum top-line growth rate can only be achieved when a business and its target market are perfectly aligned, this methodology reveals how quantitative measurements of alignment form the base for the development a Growth Playbook.
That blueprint will guide any business to align the dots to outperform its target market and fly past its competitors.

THE AUTHOR

Philippe Bouissou, Ph.D. has spent three decades in Silicon Valley as an entrepreneur, a CEO, a venture capitalist and a management consultant. He is Managing Partner at Blue Dots Partners LLC, a firm he co-founded focused on top-line acceleration. He started his career as the founder and CEO of G2i, Inc. a Unix software company that was acquired by Matra. He then was Senior Vice President at Matra Hachette Multimedia, Inc., where he led US business development for electronic publishing for the $12 billion, high-tech and diversified media company before joining Apple as Director of the Worldwide Internet Commerce group, where he founded and managed the online Apple Store and grew its revenue from zero to $350 million.


You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Philippe Bouissou Interview
Wed, 4/20 1:08AM • 44:38
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
apple, product, alignment, delight, aligned, buy, company, people, price, pricing, axis, segway, market, business, entrepreneur, sell, issue, claim, engineered, blue dots
SPEAKERS
Greg Voisen

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen the host of Inside Personal Growth. And I don't want to mess up your last name Philippe, how do you say it?

Philippe Bouissou
Bouissou

Greg Voisen
PhD is joining us from Silicon Valley. And Philippe, we sue has a new book called in lining, aligning the dots, the new paradigm to grow any business. This is a book for people that want to grow their businesses and want to expand and do it with less effort, but more thought, that's what I'll say. I think a lot of people try and do it the hard way, Philippe can help you do it, the easier way by understanding what's going on your business, some of the analytics, so when he says the new paradigm to grow any business, he means that and I'm going to let him know a little bit about you, Philippe, he spent three decades in Silicon Valley as an entrepreneur, a CEO, a venture capitalist, and management consultant. He is the co-founder and managing partner at blue dots partner LLC, a management consulting firm focusing on top line revenue, acceleration for companies or business units, with revenues between 10 million and 1 billion. You have a fascinating background, and blue dots. Also for those of you who want to learn more about blue dots, just go to blue dots partners.com. He has a new produced video called the alignment zone. And I think that you guys can get some really good information from the Enlightenment zone. It's some interviews that he's done there. And from our interview, as well, which is going to be just fantastic. And we're going to cover as much ground as we can in the time we have. But again, there'll be a link to Amazon, to aligning the dots, willfully. Tell our listeners if you would a little bit about yourself, Blue Dot partners, and how you help startups and mature businesses grow and prosper.

Philippe Bouissou
Yeah, well, first of all, thank you, Greg, for having me on your show. It's a real pleasure and a treat. I am an entrepreneur at heart, I really like to start things. And I like the transformational process of taking an idea in somebody's brain, and start to build a product or a service that to generate revenue, and make happy, you know, and make happy customers. And I don't really care if it's, you know, somebody trying to sell ice creams on a corner of a road, or somebody was trying to build the next Apple, the next Tesla. I think that entrepreneurs are amazing. It's they go after this very difficult quest and journey of building something real. I have tremendous respect for that. And it's really, really hard. I've been in Silicon Valley for over 30 years. As you mentioned, I am a software guy, I actually studied a Unix software company, when I moved here, I sold it to our largest customer then work for Hachette, one of the largest publishing companies in the world. Then I spent three years at Apple, where I studied and run the internet commerce group worked directly for Steve Jobs, which is, by the way, how I lost my hair, in case you ever wondered,

Greg Voisen
Okay, you said that.

Philippe Bouissou
And then I went to a VC almost by accident, and became a VC. So I was on the other side of the table, writing checks and investing in incredible entrepreneurs and helping them as much as I could. And then I've been in management consulting for I don't know, 1515 years now. And blue dots is a firm that John Orkut. And I started back in 2014. And we are focused on helping company grow that top line faster. It's all about growth, because growth is so critical to any business. And that's the focus we have. And that's

Greg Voisen
Where you work, like you say, with any organization in the book, you say, from 1 million to, you know, above. But you know, as somebody who's invested in all kinds of startups, meaning yourself, you have to look at lots of different variables and things. And you mentioned that one of the most painful and meaningful lessons is that when a business is not growing relative to its market, that it's on a declining path. How do you help business owners realize this death spiral they're in and how to get them out of it? Because, you know, I think sometimes businesses I'm working with run that right now. Is it 9.6 million, and there's this well, can it go beyond where it is with the current management another thing, right? Because there's issues. And sometimes the CEO has to wake up to that. And he needs somebody like you to wake him up to that. Besides intervention like that, how do you help these people see that drawn a trajectory? That's not going to create the growth that they'd like?

Philippe Bouissou
Yeah, I mean, growth, I think is one of the most vexing challenges all CEOs and entrepreneurs and business leaders have to face and the traditional way of growing, which is, you know, I need to generate more sales. So therefore, it's a sales issue. And then the sales guys typically say, well, we don't have the right leads. So it becomes a marketing issue. And then the marketing guy says, well, the product is not exactly what it should be. So then we become a product issue. And the poor product guy says, Well, I didn't have the budget, or you give me too short of a timing to build a real great product. And this secular conversation just doesn't lead anywhere, in my opinion. And it's just like, finger pointing, and it doesn't really address the issue of growth. Now, let's just step back for a second and understand some context. Growth is really critical. I was broken Darrell, the CEO of Logitech just a few years ago. And he was telling me that growth is really a matter of survival, you either growing a business or you die. Now, that's true for businesses that raise money and have investors and have shareholders. But it's also true for small businesses, because if you're not growing inflation is you know, making things more and more expensive. Therefore, you need to generate more dollars to be able to deal with that inflation. So if a business is not growing, then it becomes that means and by the way, when I talk about growth is always related to the market that the business is targeting. So there's always a context for that growth is not just growth as an arbitrary percentage number. But if you're not growing faster than you market, then your competition is and you're losing market share and you become irrelevant. And you're not creating shareholder value. In fact, I don't know any other way that growing faster than you market in order to generate real and sustainable shareholder value, and so forth is really, really critical. And that has to be addressed by any entrepreneur. And as you as

Greg Voisen
Well, I love your part in the book about your a skydiver. And I remember you talking about that and creating alignment. And this is really an important part. You mentioned that if you had to summarize your book in one word, it would be that it would be alignment, you state that alignment is the key to maximizing revenue and growth. Can you tell the great story about skydiving, your personal experience? And the three stories that exemplify alignment and great connection?

Philippe Bouissou
Yeah, so in on July 3 years, 30th 2016 in Simi Valley, California, not too far from where you're actually like, a guy named Luke Aikins, made history. So he jumped out of an airplane from an altitude of 25,000 feet. Now, jumping from an airplane, to me is not such a big deal, because I've done it over 1000 times. So I spent 20 hours of my life, literally falling, just falling at 120 miles per hour, just like you can see it on this caveat. And I'm sure some of you listening must think about me that this guy is nuts. Well, let me tell you, they're not alone. That's what my wife thinks as well.

Greg Voisen
I've been out but I haven't done as much as you have. But my point is, this guy who jumped from 25,500 feet, also jumped into a net. Right? So that's, that's the biggest price

Philippe Bouissou
Difference between us. And all my drums are that he did it without a parachute. Yeah. And no, he didn't. I actually safely landed in 100 by 100 foot net. And now you tell me who is not you know, that is crazy. That's pretty. And the one critical thing that he has to do from the beginning to the end of his skydive. By the way to skydive lasted two minutes and eight seconds, and it took him over two years to prepare it. This is not this not something interesting. Wake up one day, so I'm going to try to jump without a parachute. But the one really critical thing to is survival and to his success is that he had to realize and maintain a perfect alignment between the body's body and the net. And that alignment was a matter of death, you know, if you didn't realize it, and to grow any business faster than the market faster than the market that the business is in is really a function of creating and maintaining a perfect alignment between the business and his target market exactly the same way as look into how to create and maintain a perfect alignment between his body and the net. And so that remarkable story. And by the way, there's the video on YouTube. If you look, if you do a search on Luke Aikins AI, K en s, you will find the video. And you can see the scale, which is really remarkable. And that is a very good example of something that's really hard to do. But it's critical. And that's in a way that what CEOs and entrepreneurs and business leaders have to do, they have to understand what it means to be aligned with their market, and how to maintain that alignment.

Greg Voisen
Now, I've watched a couple of those videos, but I've watched the ones that Red Bull did about the guy at 100. And something but there was also I watched the whole not to sidetrack us here. But the one of the executives at Google was trying to master this as well. Right. And he was in his late 50s, early 60s. And he jumped from a higher altitude than the guy at Red Bull. Yeah. And the preparation to get it right was just, you know, when you look at all of the elements that went into it, the weather conditions and this and that, the suit that he was wearing, and I found the whole thing, just fascinating, I think that's the same thing you're talking about. And in your example, about a four precision alignment, you tell a wonderful story to exemplify pain versus claim and perception versus message. Can you tell the story and speak with the listeners about the power of the four alignment? Including? Hang on, we're gonna have to edit? Can you tell the story and speak with our listeners about the power of the four alignment, including purchase versus sale and delight versus offering and use the Apple computer case, which was kind of a great study?

Philippe Bouissou
So if you know, the question is okay, I need to align my business with my target market. What does that really mean? And how do I do that. And they are four universal axes of alignment between any business and his target market. And the stunning fact is that those four axes of alignment are truly universal. So I can take a cafe on the left neck of Paris, I can take Tesla, Boeing, American Airlines, or a small, you know, mom and pop shops selling clothing, they apply the exact the exact same way. So the first axis of alignment is between the pain and the claim. So the pain that the customer has, and the claim that the business makes to address that pain has to be aligned. So if you come to me, Greg, and you say I have a headache, and I show you a stomachache, he'll, obviously your pain and my claim, which is solving stomach issues, and underline, you will never buy my appeal. The second axis is the expiration of the claim, which is really the messaging, which is how I express my claim to prospects and customers. And the understanding of that claim, which is the perception have to be aligned. So imagine I have a pill for your headache, and I describe it to you in Korean or language you don't speak, you will never buy the pill, even though it would be the perfect job for your headache, because you're like, What the heck's this guy talking about, you will not understand what I'm talking about. That's the second axis. The third one is the way customers want to buy. And the way the company's sales have to be aligned. So if I say great, you can get my peer, but you have to fly here in Palo Alto to get informasi against a wall in a minute, there is a pharmacy just down the street from where I live, why do I need to take your plan to buy your pill. So the purchase and the sale have to be aligned. And then the last axis of lemon is my favorite one color stole it out of the apple playbook. Which is by working with Steve Jobs, I realized that there is one and only one universal business on this entire planet. And so everybody is in the same single unique universal business. And that business is the manufacturing and delivery of delight. When somebody buys a product or a service, that person has a certain delight expectation in the head. And as the product or the service is consumed, that expectation has to be met, there cannot be an impedance mismatch between what I expect and what's delivered. So that's the last axis. So the four axis is the pain of the customer and the claim the business makes have to be aligned. The perception which is the understanding of the claim, and the messaging, which is the expression of the claim, have to be aligned, and then the way customers want to buy and the way the product or the service is sold in the marketplace have to be aligned. And finally the expected delight and the delivery what's delivered to that customer have to be aligned. And I really

Greg Voisen
Believe that your delight is a very, very it's what so many companies miss. They don't get that now. I've had many people in advertising on and I've had, you know, hundreds of guests. But one of the things it's always sad about Apple is in between all these divisions. Now, Apple's a huge company, okay, I'm using as a gap, what doesn't matter, you can distill this down to a million dollar company, they have perfected to a large degree, the whole customer delight cycle in every phase from whether you're buying an iPhone, or you're buying an iMac, or you're doing whatever, and the customer service and the way in which they handle the customer. Whatever that culture is that they've created, they've been able to link that how is it used to work for Steve Jobs? Maybe it wasn't that way back then. But today, I personally think of all the companies I can think of that the customer delight experience, like Disney, Disney tries to do that, too. Right? It's like I go to Disneyland, I know what I can expect. Every time I get it's the same thing. But the reality is, there's something about that delight, which wants me to tell everybody else, let's go buy an Apple iPhone, go buy an iMac, go back an iPad, whatever it is, right? So how do you help smaller businesses make certain that all those stages in between and all that communication that has to occur between department can continually satisfy that delight of the customer?

Philippe Bouissou
Well, it has to be part of the culture, it has to be part of the DNA, it has to be part of the obsession, it has to be part of the reason and the why people get up in the morning because their mission is to deliver that delight. That's the way it is that's the way it is at Apple, we will never compromise on the quality of the delight. And he has to be engineered the same way you would think about manufacturing and distribution channels and packaging and pricing, he has to be engineered in the product consumption cycle. So if you really look at the amount of energy you spend using a product or a service, over time, you will find a kind of a bell curve. So the initial phase and the six phases, the first phase is the discovery, which is the very first time you open the iPhone box, or you sit in your new car, or you put your new watch on your wrist. And then you have to use and then you have the maintenance, the upgrade and the customer support. Those are the three after that. And then the last one is the disposal. What do you do when you decide you don't want to use the product now, for an apple, you can take any Apple product and bring it back to any Apple store, they will take it and they will recycle and they will protect the planet by doing so. So Apple has engineered the this obsessive nature of delivering delight for each of those six steps. So when you open a box and you open a new iPhone, the noise that it makes the way the little thing that you grabbed with your finger to pull the smell, there is actually all plastic engineers at Apple Care about the smell, which is a tricky problem, by the way, because women and men have very different sense of smell. And this whole idea of making sure you're not going to open the box and then drop the iPhone by accident. So there's a lot of engineering into the packaging. And that's just the first one of the six first steps, which is the discovery phase. So Apple by design is obsessed about each of those six steps. And they said, Okay, how do we maintain the products? One of the six steps? How do we dispose of the product when the customers decides to not use the product anymore? And it's really ingrained in the DNA of the company in everything we do. And it's not by accident. That's just the way Steve wanted the whole culture to be. And it will never compromise on the delight delivery phase of any of our products.

Greg Voisen
Well, it is so exceptional, as a company, that it's no wonder they're, you know, a two or $3 trillion company. Right? Yeah. So you mentioned that price is an important component of the claim. In fact, now here's the thing I tell people, I would pay 30% more to buy from Apple because of the delay. Right? I'll pay more. Right? And that's not true everywhere. You know that that might not be true with Samsung, because they're competing on price. Many of them are don't believe Apple is competing on price, which gives them not an unfair advantage. But they've figured out the formula that allows people to say I'll pay more. So in fact, no claim should be made without pricing, you say? Can you explain how pricing affects the volume purchased of an item and the effects on the profit ability of a company?

Philippe Bouissou
Yeah. So why so why is pricing part of a claim? Or in other words, why a claim doesn't exist without pricing? So Greg, imagine I tell you, you can fly from LAX from Los Angeles to Paris in two hours, instead of the eight hours or nine hours you would normally take. And if I say, are you interested, the first question you're gonna ask me says, Well, how much do I have to pay? So if I said, well, it cost $85,000. To do that site, you're probably gonna say, Fine, you know, as you know, played for nine hours, and I paid $1,500 that they typically charge. Now, if I said, you know, it costs 20% more than the AirFrance ticket. So instead of paying $1,500, use pay $1,500 plus 20%, then now you're interesting. And if I say it costs half of the price of the normal airfare for airfare, and you can say, well, I want to go to Paris tomorrow, because it only takes two hours. So you can see how pricing affects your decision to purchase in a very, very big way. Yes. And if I just made the claim without pricing, it's not a claim, because there's no pricing. So pricing is a very critical component of any claim. And again, a claim does not exist without pricing. Now, when I talk about pricing, it's a lot more than just dollars and cents, because it's like, what's the return? What if I get sick and I cannot fly? Can I use it as a credit, there's a lot of things. And when you sell to businesses, there are issues about procurements and terms. And this is a SAS, you know, software license is perpetual. There's all kinds of things. So first thing is complicated. Now, the tricky thing is that typically, as you increase pricing, your number of transaction, number of people willing to buy goes down. And if you decrease pricing, the number of people willing to buy goes up. But the problem is that the important number is the multiplication of the pricing by the number of people who are willing to buy. And that's why it's hard to optimize, because sometimes you will increase your top line by decreasing your price, because the volume increases and the trend goes down. But sometimes you can also increase your top line by 20%, by increasing your price of 20%. Because people will still make a 20% increase because they love the product so much. And they maybe think it's undervalued. So that's why pricing optimization is a really tricky equation to solve. But it's something that most businesses don't think hard about, you know about in terms of pricing, and pricing strategy, what kind of pricing model do I want to go to market with, and that's really critical.

Greg Voisen
You bring up an important point there. And I think when the delight is built into it, there's less a factor of what the price is. Right, right. And is initially on repeat purchases, repeat purchases, because you won't question the price as much. You may if it was absorbent, you'd say, hey, wait a second, something's wrong here. But if it's within a justification range of 20 to 30%, you're not going to question that. So if it was a Tesla, and you wanted to buy the Tesla car, you're gonna say, Hey, I'm willing to pay more, because I know, there's hundreds of 1000s of them out there with great customer service, like the car, speak about a case study. And I remember this because I'm going to be 68 in July, and I remember the Segway. And I remember game came in as well. And I remember the documentaries they did on 60 minutes. Yeah, it Dean and the founder of segway. And then segway was initially a kind of a financial disaster. You see the little carts that were running around in San Francisco down by the wharf and people would rent them and whatever. Tell us about the case study and about the subsequent purchase by Roger Brown, who bought the company from the estate of is it Jimmy is to listen and speak about the perception, price safety and convenience, because, you know, we see so many of these things out there now, right? It's everything from little kids going down the street on the little scooters to you know, it's everywhere, it's prolific, but at the time, the Segway was the only deal. He was the only game in town.

Philippe Bouissou
Right? So segway was introduced on December 3 2001, as a as a human transporter, which is a way to describe it, but it was two wheels and it was self balancing. The whole thing is that you could you could move forward by leaning forward, you would slow down by leaning backwards and you just tilt to turn. The problem is that he was very misaligned on the first axis to start with, which is again the pain and the claim and the pain. He was really thought, as you know, a dark factor and you know, bought by crazy people Well, money to buy toys. There was a safety issue. I mean, as you mentioned, Jimmy actually died. You know, from using one he went off, he went off a cliff on his property. There is a famous video on YouTube. That's quite funny, actually, about George W. Bush falling of a segway. So it was there was a safety issue. It's like, you know, I don't want to create more pain by hurting myself, that's the last thing I want to do. There was there was, you know, why would I buy one really, it's like, you know, I'm gonna look really weird. And this is socially acceptable. Now, there was a whole issue around this, there was issue about cities saying, Well, you have to wear a helmet. And some cities will say you cannot use it on the sidewalks. So then you use it on a road where cars are as dangerous. And then the price he was, you know, $4,590. And it's like, you know, very expensive for a mass market talking about price a little bit earlier. So, clearly, there was no well notified pain that was designed and that was thought by the company. And then the claim they were making with a very high price tag, just didn't match any pain. And basically, the company was then bought by Roger Brown for $9 million. He sold it a few years later for like $75 million. And he was bought by a company called Ninebot, which is now producing the, the motors and the electronic system for a scooter for burden line very successfully. And now if you think of a scooter, it cost a lot less money. Everybody knows what it is. It's pretty safe. And so suddenly, the technology was repackaged into a much better panel, Cayman Island, which a very successful ending. But the whole thing,

Greg Voisen
but even bird and lime got a problem with safety issues with the cities. And they had to they had to go before the city council's and they had to, you know, throw their case in there. And a lot of them got kicked out because those devices became nemesis for the sidewalks. Right? It was everybody was getting hurt. Now, not everybody, but a lot of people.

Philippe Bouissou
Yeah, there were a lot of issues around safety for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Greg Voisen
So and how would you align that fleet at this massive movement right now, which I think rightfully so around electric bikes. You know, you look at RAD bike, which is probably one of the more recognized mass produced bikes around. And you see adults, kids, everybody riding him. I know, I live in a beach city. So it's like, they're, they're everywhere. But it's just in the last two years that you've seen this massive movement and price. You know, we prices vary from $1,500 to $6,000. Right. So any comment about that on price? And, and because I've just seen such a big movement in

Philippe Bouissou
It? Yeah, I mean, do alignment, they want to know, money is a much clearer situation. And then segue because everybody's used to bikes. And people say, you know, I cannot really bike 15 or 20 Miles is too hard for me. Let's say, you know, somebody might say I'm 55. And it's like, I'm not really in good shape. But electric bike really enabled that, you know, few miles to 10 miles ranch than a normal bicycle would not. And then of course, the inconvenience of having a car where you have to park in is a lot more expensive. So there is a very nice Awan depend on the claim alignment there. I think pricing will continue to go down. And the most expensive part is the battery, which is about 30% of the cost of the bike, you can start to see movement where the cost of battery goes down. And the charge became less of an issue because it charged pretty quickly. And I actually just recently joined the board of a company in India that is manufacturing and electronic motorcycles. So it's not a bike. It's a motorcycle, motorcycle and the battery is swappable. So the recharge of the battery takes about 30 seconds, you walk into a place you put your battery that discharge in Iraq, you take another battery in the rack that's charge, you put it on your bike and you go it takes 30 to 60 seconds. So that solves the issue of I have to wait an hour or two hours to recharge. And it's very, very modular. And of course in India and Southeast Asia, the market for electric motorcycle is huge, much bigger than the

Greg Voisen
US the pollution issue is a huge issue is Asia go to India got any of those places and it's just it's prolific the amount of pollution well that’s it. And I love your analogy there. Because I really think that it is important. And I believe environmentally, that electric bikes are going to have a huge place in society. I wish there are a few more restrictions on how people use them. But that's that would be my only thing. Now in your chapter on the third axis, you talk about purchase versus sale. Can you speak with the listeners about the second product launches for Apple? I think this is important. I just said that a minute ago. Second, product launches, and Tesla second product launches, and why it is all about how products are sold, and the go to market plan. Because when you buy the first one makes it easier to buy the second one, but there's a psychology behind that, that they've all kind of built into it. Right?

Philippe Bouissou
Yeah, I think that so the challenge is, companies tend to be good at building the first product. I mean, of course, there's ups and downs on issues. But by and large companies build the first product that's decent, and that tends that works. And then they start to rush about building the second product. And I always stopped them. And I said, your second product is not the product that you have in mind, which is the next version of the bike or whatever it is. Your second product, which you need to engineer from the ground up is your go to market strategy. And that is the cycle by which people will buy your product, and how you're going to make that flywheel spin so that more and more people buy your product. And in the go to market, which is all the way from generating the right leads all the way to closing and selling. That whole process itself is a product that I call the second product, because that's where the energy and the investment needs to be made, made. And a lot of companies shortcut that they don't really think it through, they don't really have a real solid go to market strategy. And they fail because of that not because of their product is not good, or people don't want to buy it. It's just because they don't know how to sell and they don't understand how people want to acquire that product. And so that alignment between sell and purchase is really critical. And again, I think it needs to be engineered, there has to be resources set aside for that in a way that's really predictable. And the way that that really works. And that's how the growth engine will start spinning.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I believe everything you're saying there, you know, I see these young startups who raise anywhere from on crowdfunding, you know, from a million dollars to 10 million. And there's a new example. I don't know how it got my inbox, but it did. And it's probably because my wife and I are environmentally conscious called Lumi. And they make a composter that sits on your sink top. And literally turns everything you put it into dirt. Right? Okay, so they worked three years on this thing. And I'm making using this as an example. Because when I first looked at it, I didn't buy it because it was $500. Price. I now see that the demand has exceeded to August, to actually get one. So I'm more apt to buy the product now. Because the demand is so high. Is there anything in that that's that they're doing? To actually intentionally do that, because of the psychology thinking, Well, you gotta hurry and buy one because if you don't, you're gonna miss out or what's going on? Because it's all crowdfunded, you put $49 down for a $500 product, right? Right to save your spot. And I think crowdfunding, I have a friend down here in San Diego, who does a ton of crowd funding for these kinds of companies. Any comment on that?

Philippe Bouissou
Well, I mean, the technique they use is car study, which means that they cannot produce or manufacture enough of those products. And so they go back to you and say, Greg, you know, I know you're on the list, but you're Fourth on the list, because a lot of other people want the product and they haven't got it yet. Now, they may have a manufacturing and supply chain issue, which is why they don't manufacture those products fast enough. I doubt that it's intentional. In this particular case, some software company use that trick to say you have to go on the mailing list, and then we'll open the software only to the first 10,000 users. So but that's a marketing trick. I don't think this particular company would do that. I think they're just maybe underestimated the demand. There. Maybe they're not manufacturing, you know, they're not stocking up. Maybe there is a supply chain issue with China. I mean, who knows? But, you know, that's a problem that we wrestle with an apple for a long, long time. We were never really good at forecasting demand, and that's really hard. Now, the company does it much better. I mean, you know, if you know, if Tim Work announces an iPhone 14, then you can say it's going to be available on Friday, you know, April 14, then you go there, and then you'll have it yet sometimes it's a bit of delay. But Apple has become much, much better at forecasting. Now, of course, there are economies of scales, and they have this huge manufacturing process.

Greg Voisen
But their plan, but they're planning months or years. Answer that. Yeah. And they've already distributed and put them into the supply chain, whereas smaller companies don't have the resources Apple, it's really hard right to get in the supply chain. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So

Philippe Bouissou
in that case, you know, they it's okay that you wait, but you have to wait in a reasonable amount of time, because then you're gonna get frustrated. So it's a really a balancing act. And, and but again, in this particular example, I don't really know why they are not manufacturing and shipping fast enough.

Greg Voisen
This is an off the wall question. But you know, I see this happening now with Android devices, not Apple devices. But you know, the leader in all these foldable phones, and you see, the technology is getting really, really crazy. I mean, good, like, triple folds now, right? Do you think that Apple is going to go down that road? Because when you look at their product, I get that it's simple, I get that it does its job, I get that that's always been Apple's fundamental philosophy. But don't at some point, you have to try and compete against that other market, or do you just completely Allah,

Philippe Bouissou
Apple doesn't care about competition. And Apple never tries to be better than competition. Apple always strive to be different. So if Samsung and everybody else start to do those phones that you can fold, Apple may very well. And of course, I'm not in a secret of Tim Cook and the design. Even if I knew I would tell you, they, they like they're gonna look at this and say, that's an interesting thing. But we don't really care. And I think the reason is, if you think about size of screen, the smaller size being the iWatch. And then you have the phone, and then you have the tablet, the iPad, the iPad, and then you have the 24 inch iMac, and now you have the 27 inch display that they just announced. And I think Apple, my guess is, and again, this is purely speculation, because I do not know. But my guess is that Apple is comfortable in every one of those categories and say, there is no reason to fall don't fall to move from one category to another. Interesting. That's the way they would think. But again, I may be completely wrong.

Greg Voisen
You know, we none of us knows. But we know that there's a obviously with this device everybody in the world carries. There's a lot of competition, whether it's Android or it's iOS, now and your fourth axis is delight versus offering you state that every company, no matter what they sell is here to deliver delight. Can you tell us about some of the companies and how they have won over the consumers with delivering delight, and some of the examples you used was Harley Davidsons. McDonald's? I don't know about Farmers Insurance, Pixar and Ford, because, you know, I look at the insurance industry is kind of ubiquitous. It's like if you're delivering a product, this is what it is. I know farmers has more homeowners insurance customers than almost anybody know it's State Farm, actually.

Philippe Bouissou
Yeah, I think GEICO is probably better. But yeah, yeah.

Greg Voisen
So tell us about that. Because Harley Davidson, I get Pixar, I get four. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about it.

Philippe Bouissou
Well, I think again, the question is, is what is delight for my customer or for my product, and at the price point, I'm going to sell it. So you can compare McDonnell to a three star Michelin restaurant. And I would argue that they're selling the same product, you're putting food in your stomach at the end of the day, there is really no difference. Now, the delight that you expect from a three star Michelin restaurant, paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars for dinner, even though it's the same product or similar product is very different from the delight you're going to expect for paying 99 cents for a McDonald product. And McDonald's has been very good at developing a product at the price point that people believe that they receive delight from it. But of course, it's a very different delight than a three star Michelin restaurant. So it's all a

Greg Voisen
Matter of no longer at 99 cents.

Philippe Bouissou
I cannot go to $1.49

Greg Voisen
No, I don't go to McDonald's at all, but I know there's nothing for 99 cents.

Philippe Bouissou
Okay. But I mean, the point that I'm making is that the light has to be in the context of the target market. And the product that you're selling at the right price point, it's this whole, you know, three things. You know, if you fly southwest, you're not gonna be delighted, there's no, it's not the same delight, as you know, first class ticket and Singapore airline, but you pay a lot less than is very convenient. So a lot of companies are very successful and growing very fast, because they understand the sandbox in which they're gonna play and what kind of delight they're gonna deliver on the message or on the delight, and they stick to that. And that's why they are very successful, even though the product or the product quality that they deliver may be completely different from the opposite side of the market, which is very expensive, very premium, and you know, for reserved, you know, segment of the market,

Greg Voisen
good points you make. Now, hopefully, you've written this book, and we're wrap up our interview here that informs and educates readers, and our listeners about how to create alignment. That's what we're talking about, so that they can succeed at delivering the best customer experience when someone purchased their product or their service. Right? What are the three important takeaways that you would want the listeners to know about on how to achieve this alignment, if they're sitting there now with a million dollar business trying to grow it, and they're struggling? Or they're sitting with a $10 million business, and they have the same struggles, struggles as a million dollar business? What are the three important takeaways that you'd like to leave our listeners.

Philippe Bouissou
With? Yeah, and by the way, it also applies to, you know, we work with businesses that are a billion dollars or $10 billion, they have the same, you know, challenges. So I think the three takeaways are, you know, are the following, its alignment, and then alignment, and then alignment. And then we explain what I mean. The first alignment is the alignment between the business and its target market along the four axes that we described earlier, that's really critical. Because if you're not aligned with your market, you're not gonna grow. The second alignment is what I call the internal alignment. If the team within the business is not internally aligned to execute that those four external alignments, then the company is not going to grow, because they won't execute the growth strategy. And they're just not going to grow anywhere. So it's really important that the team is fundamentally aligned internally so that they can successfully execute the external alignment. And in fact, it's the last chapter of my book is dedicated to that internal alignment. So it's really four plus one. And then the third alignment is the I would say the alignment with ourselves. I think, as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, as a CEO, you have to know who you are, and why you're doing this, this is crazy, to start and run a business is really, really hard. And if you're not aligned with your own self, then it's really hard to land people on the line with the market and be successful. So that's the third alignment that I would invite people to think about and think about making sure they are aligned with themselves, otherwise, they will not be as successful as they can.

Greg Voisen
Well, your book is fantastic. Align the dots. For any business, no matter what size, you can read this and take something away. Blue dots is the website that will send it blue dots partners.com, we'll put a link to that. We'll put a link to Amazon to the book, as well. And fleet thanks for being on and spending a little bit of time with our listeners, sharing your wisdom and knowledge that you've acquired from working for companies like Apple, and being an entrepreneur and being an investor and doing the actual things. In other words, you're just not somebody who's like speaking from I went to university, and I learned a lot you are you're somebody who's actually been in the trenches, gotten into all this and you understand it remarkably well. And I want to thank you for sharing that wisdom and knowledge with our listeners. Well, thank

Philippe Bouissou
You so much for having me on your show, Greg. It's a real pleasure and I hope that you listen or we think about growth. You did have a different way of thinking about alignment, which is really the key to success.

Greg Voisen
I will think about it jumping out of that plane to that 100 square foot thing that we have to get to that. That's alignment. Thanks so much. Really.

Philippe Bouissou
Thank you, Greg. Really a pleasure.

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