Podcast 992: Lessons I Learned From the Tortoise with Donna Dahl

Joining me in this podcast is author, speaker, workshop developer and empowerment coach, Donna Dahl. Featured in our engaging discussion is one of her good-to-read books entitled Lessons I Learned From the Tortoise.

Donna has been coaching business owners, decision-makers and persons ready to take giant steps for more than ten years. She is an award-winning Empowerment Coach having won the Woman of Inspiration Award for Lifetime Achievement, the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal and the 100th Anniversary International Women’s Day Award for Outstanding Service to Business.

Donna, also, is a successful self-publisher, editor and published author. She has written empowerment books targeting entrepreneurs and those who are looking at reinventing themselves. One of her masterpieces is Lessons I Learned From the Tortoise – a delightful, motivational book uses a beloved, well-known story to help you cast reflections on your inner qualities.

If you want to know more about Donna and her works, you may click here to visit her website.

I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Donna Dahl. Happy listening!

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.

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Greg Voisen
Well welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. And on the line with me is Donna Dahl. And we're going to be speaking with Donna about a book that she wrote a while back but an interesting little book called Lessons I Learned from the Tortoise. Donna, Good day to you. How are you?

Donna Dahl
I'm well thank you. Thank you for inviting me.

Greg Voisen
Well, Don is joining us from porta Viar toe Mexico where she's spending three months but the rest of the time she spends her time in cold Canada where exactly in Canada are you from Donna? I'm from Calgary. Calgary, okay, hot in the summertime called in the wintertime. So she enjoys those Calgary stampedes. Now I'm going to let our listeners know a tad bit about you Donna, before we get into talking about your books and the lessons you've learned. Donnie is an award winning empowerment coach having won women of inspiration Award for Lifetime Achievement, the Queen Elizabeth the Second Diamond Jubilee medal and the 100th anniversary International Women's Day Award for outstanding services to business. Donald Donna is humbled by the numerous testimonials and recommendations posted online, online both by our clients and our peers. And you can find them on Amazon and on public social media networking sites, like LinkedIn and Alignable. Donna's a pretty well versed person, you can go to her website at Donna P doll dhl.com. That's Donna P doll. To learn more about her business, her books, how she helps people actually create and write books. But this little book is quite interesting, actually, I think probably done. Many people have known the story of the tortoise and the hare. But we always learned something from it, if you would tell our listeners a little about yourself. And what really compelled you to write this book lessons I learned from the tortoise.

Donna Dahl
Thanks for asking, alright. Aesop's fable about the tortoise and the hare is a story that appealed to me way, way back in time. I, I always found myself identifying with the tortoise. And that that might have had something to do with the fact that I stopped growing when I was 13. And others were passing me by. You know, it's interesting that when illustrators create pictures depicting the tortoise and the hare, they always have the tortoise, black down on all fours almost hitting the ground. And the hair is upright on his two hind legs all and ready for action. It's whether that's an appropriate way to think about the tortoise and the hare or not. I'm not sure. But the moral of the story in the final analysis to me said, you know, it's possible for the underdog, even. And I think that that's that that's what makes this story so memorable to me. As a coach, I'm working with individuals who are wanting to develop leadership skills, who are working in the realms of team building and wanting to develop confidence, whether it's in their team or in themselves. And so I see lessons I'm learning from a mentor, and a sort of a manual that could that could help leaders support them, not only themselves but their teams as well.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's really interesting. You're saying this because I just did a an interview with comedian Samuel called wealth coaching. And she actually works with coaches, you know, as it relates to your story, you know, people go, Oh, I'm going to be a coach and I'm going to end up earning six figure income right away. And it is really about the tortoise and the hare here. It takes time and patience to really develop a good coaching business and reach the levels that you would like to reach and if you're not committed and determined to do that, chances of you getting there are pretty slim to nil there are you know, I know we see these great famous coaches out there from all over who, you know, maybe they did make money quickly. But statistically, she proved to me otherwise, as we talked about it. And I think you'd agree with that. Now, you say in the book that we pattern, a lot of our pain, our behavior, around guidance that stems from our past, I agree with you, you know, it's, we get comfortable in what we know. So we don't try and kind of push for the discomfort. And I recognize that that's a challenge. How do you recommend changing patterns that are not serving us to our highest and best potential? In other words, you're a coach, you're working with people all day long? And you see these patterns that they get stuck in? And how do you get them to identify the pattern? And how do you get them to release that pattern, and become a little bit more risky?

Donna Dahl
One of the first things that, that I like to point out is that I've, I've done some work on myself. So I had to, I had to confront some of the things that were in my present life. And where did they come from? And how did they get there. So one of the things that has happened is that my closet has expanded over the years, partly because I haven't necessarily changed by size. But there was a something that was instilled in me when I was very, very young. And that was that I needed to be gentle with my clothes. There were people that were described as being hard on their heart on their clothes, and I was asked to be gentle on my clothes so that I can pass it down to younger members of my family. What? What, in order for me to get a grip on this business of my wardrobe, I needed to be able to do a wardrobe inventory analysis, how did my clothing get to stay there? And what was I going to what was I going to do about it,

Greg Voisen
so I mean, purging your closet. But awesome. But you should see my closet, I must have been trying to be gentle on mine as well, because my wife always says to me, you need to get rid of half of that stuff you have.

Donna Dahl
But until unless and until we're prepared to face, the behaviors that we have, the actions that we take, the beliefs that we operate on, nothing is ever going to change. And so sometimes it really helps to work with a coach to help identify those underlying pieces that may be having an influence on your life that you that may be no longer serving.

Greg Voisen
Well, that's a perfect example. I mean, it's actually It may sound funny to some, but, you know, look, I grew up with a little Jewish mother, who always told me to save everything. And she grew up during the Depression. So I got to be the benefactor. And I think sometimes what you have to do is on some of these things, you get their gifts, you have to say I love what my parents gave to me. And you have to accept it versus fighting it, you know. And in my case, it was it's about like saving stuff because my mom used to send me to school. So here's a perfect example. Like you, you had to be gentle with your clothes. This is another great behavior. She had me bringing home the paper bag that she put my lunch in, and I would literally have five lunches that would go to school in the same paper bag that she put my name on. Now, some people might just say that that's just absolutely ridiculous. But to this day, when I get a bag, I fold it up, and I put it away. That just shows you a pattern, that and a belief that you have they can hang on for I'm going to be 69 years old. So that's a long time to be hanging around paper bags. But you know you utilize this Aesop Fable about the tortoise and the hare and you state that speed may matter but slow and steady wins the race. And we just used an example about coaching. That's a great I think because you're a coach, you're not going to make probably six figure income in your first year. So, you know, get ready for that. I know we've all heard the quote. But how many of us have really heard the message? Can you tell the story that you did in the book about Alexander Graham Bell's patent filing, I never knew that I was just like, wow, that's a that's a great little story, because it exemplifies, you know, the speed, right? We're talking about speed. And I won't ruin it. So go ahead and tell it because I didn't know it.

Donna Dahl
Well, Alexander Graham Bell illustrates not only speed, but also commitment, commitment on a number of fronts. To begin with, Alexander was all about solving a problem. And that problem had to do with his mother, who had challenges with her hearing. So she always needed to use a horn that Alexander would speak into, in order to help her to hear what he was saying. Alexander wasn't satisfied with that solution. And so began working on something that at that time was called an acoustic telegraph. another fancy word for what we speak about today as a phone. But with an acoustic telegraph, what he wanted to do was he wanted to be able to transmit sound waves across a skinny surface like a wire, in order to be able to communicate that sound into another space when the person was visible. On the day of filing for the patent, apparently, Elisha Gray, was also working on experimenting with an acoustic telegraph. And in fact, she and others challenged Alexander in the court, subsequent to his inspiring, and that years, years of resolution, and finally, Alexander was granted the big cottoned on the telephone. And in Canada, we still have the Bell System, in in, in effect today, as a result of having been declared the fastest person to the patent office in 1876.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's a fascinating story. And it really does. Just bring up the whole story of the tortoise and the hare, you know, just hanging out, are you going to hang out? And that brings me to kind of my next question. The second chapter of your Burke book, you speak about the fact that it's okay to be second. We've seen people who've invented things or they waited for somebody else to do something, and then they made whatever it was better, right? In other words, it's like proving it. I remember, you know, like I can I go back to the days when we used to use palm pilots, and I'm much many of my listeners will remember that device. And we used to exchange business cards with infrared, right? Was boom, it would send it and, you know, you think about it, Palm Pilot pebble, which is the first digital watch kind of company as well. And you look back at these, and so many people wrote on the back of all these kinds of inventions. And you said it's okay to be second, you tell the great story about the first producers of automobiles. And note that Henry Ford was not first. What are the advantages near estimation of not being first other than I've just pointed out a few. You can take the technology that somebody comes out with and then you can make it better and better and better and better.

Donna Dahl
Yes, yes. I love the question. There's there are some, you know, who would never entered the race to begin with, if someone had already arrived at the finish line. But that didn't. That didn't stop and record and while Ransome Eli OLS may have had the first assembly line with respect to producing vehicles back at the beginning of the 20th century. It was Henry Ford, who was first use a conveyor belt in the manufacture of automobiles. And so he did, he is a great example of making it better. If we don't forward to the 1950s, it was actually Russia that had the first equipment, the first satellite, and the United States followed a year later with putting theirs into space. So sometimes the big first can be the motivation to others coming behind, I think that that coming second says that you didn't give up. In, I talked in the book about horse racing, where you know, where to place your show, twice is still a pretty important space to be in, because it's still in the money. So it's okay to being second. That doesn't mean it doesn't mean that your last position, in fact, as in Henry Ford's case, it helped him to become the largest producer of automobiles in the world.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think people can just perfect it. Sometimes they have the vision for in his case, it was mass assembly, assembly lines. I remember this from the days of technology, it's, you know, Bill Gates way back when I was going to all the shows in Las Vegas that they would do around computers. And the story is, and I'm sure it's totally true that IBM was way before Bill Gates, and IBM also created dos. And Bill Gates bought dos from IBM. And it wasn't him that actually created the foundation of I mean, when you look at initially when we were doing computers, it was all dos stuff, right? Obviously, it's progressed way beyond that at this point. But like you say, when you look at the first people, when you look at the university that first said, hey, they created the internet, they say that internet, or the government that was involved in it, I mean, you look at how it's just piggyback. And if you would speak with our listeners about celebrating their success, I think this comes down to an individual level. No matter what place they finish, you mentioned just being in the game, the race, we're talking about the tortoise and the hare here is as important as winning whether or not the tortoise won it or the hare one it the reality is they were both in the race.

Donna Dahl
They were both in the race. Sometimes it's a question of what do we value? Do we validate participation? Do we value a clause or some combination of both? To me, it's all about endorphins. So if we're getting exercise, if we're getting mentally challenged, if we're getting recognition, coming first, second, third, it's endorphins sort of send us to our happy place that that that improves our mood, it improves our, our appetite improved on our mental health. Thank you. So stepping forward, and joining the race is very good practice to have. And I would, I would say to leaders, come on, let's, let's improve the spaces where we can practice positive, positive engagement with the culture that we're attempting to develop in the workplace.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I think, you know, when businesses, you know, when they start up, there's all this smaller businesses that turn into be very big businesses. And then when they get to be very big, sometimes they lose some of that entrepreneur spirit. And, you know, there's the old cliche in business consulting, you know, storming, forming norming, right. And so as you climb up into those various levels, you find that there is a level of complacency and bureaucracy and a challenge, but you've got to challenge every individual within the organization to bring their creativity and innovation. That's what most businesses are looking for. And you talk about a really important thing. If my goal is aligned with the goal of the company that I work

Donna Dahl
For, that's great.

Greg Voisen
That's where you're going to get the most engagement from me. And you speak about multitasking, and how it gets in our way of making progress. And I would agree with you, I think it was actually Microsoft that did the study. And they said, how many things? Can you actually pay attention to it once? I think optimally? I know I'm going to say one, but I think it came down to two or three, was it you know, but people have so much on their plate. Speak to the listeners about the power of focus, and the distractions of multitasking? And how it takes them off of? Let's just call it their mark.

Donna Dahl
Thank you. Great, great question. A university professor of mine once asked the question of how many conversations can you live them too, at one time? I thought interesting question is his answer was, we can only focus on one conversation at a time, what happens is that we can focus on the conversation over here, by focusing our veer in that direction, by shutting off this year, and then fluctuating back and forth, will help us to focus on one or the other, but only one at a time, we can't hear two conversations at the same time. So thinking about what is the definition of a distraction. And my take on that is that a distraction is, first of all, anything that causes us not to be present in the present tense in the present moment. And the other is that a distraction acts as a beach word. So what is going on in our universe, and in 2023, is that we are being pummeled with pings on our cell phone. We're, they're finding that individuals, for instance, working in an office space, might be checking email inboxes, as many as 30 times in an hour. If you added all that time up over the course of a day or a week, that's that there are some who might consider that to be time lost, in terms of in terms of work. So the part here that bothers me about multitasking is that it is reducing our attention span, off to stay committed to a particular task or goal for any length of time. And those people who work in a multitasking environment tend to find that the end of the day, they will, they will comment will be that they've accomplished nothing. Because all they were doing all day long with being over. Yeah, and when you have

Greg Voisen
the short attention span on something and you go back and forth, it's like, you know, people wanting to get your attention, if you're middle line manager and your door is open, and you said you always had an open door policy. And I get that, I think you need to hear the people that work for you and with you. But it prevents you from getting the stuff done that you need to get done. So it's almost like I think it's better to time block and have office hours and say if we really want to talk, you can get me at this particular time. And that seems to be a challenge for a lot of people because as you said, the digital devices are also taking from their time because they're a distraction. They're normally a distraction, they're an addiction, they become highly addictive. And I guarantee you that the companies that have those wants you to be addicted to them. That's their point. You talk about a really interesting story you tell about the art of quilting, and what are known as UFOs. I always thought those were, you know, unidentified flying objects, but it's not in your book. Speak with us about finishing what we start and our unfinished projects because this actually goes right along with what we were just talking about multitasking, allowing and figuring out what the priority is. You know, I think there's a goal and then there's proximal goals that are the goals prior to those that help you do it a step at a time because in reality, this is about taking the baby steps to get The bigger step no matter how long it takes, yeah.

Donna Dahl
Partly, partly, Greg, but one of the things that influences the, the choice, whether it's finished or not. Why? Why started in the first place? Was it intended to be a gift? Was it intended to be a challenge project? was? Was it? Did it end up being too complex? Was it taking up too much time? Come up with a well first,

Greg Voisen
first tell the audience what the UFO is that you're saying? Oh,

Donna Dahl
it's an unfinished object. In other words, a quilt project. Right, started and remains unfinished. Got it? Okay. Are those people in business who advertise themselves as being persons who finished those UFOs for the quilter? Oh, the project doesn't have to remain unfinished. But anything that's unfinished, doesn't necessarily do us any good. And so um, come up with an acronym that might help those unfinished projects, whether they're quilts or whether they're tasks of another nature. Initiative, alternate, done delegate it, or donate it. Bad dentists should alter it, delegate it, or donate it.

Greg Voisen
I like that. I like that. You know, that's, I know, many of my listeners, I don't know if this show gets into Canada. But I wouldn't say I'm addicted, but I love American Pickers. And so when they go out, and they see these old barns filled with old cars, or, or chest of drawers, it doesn't matter what it is. It's just been sitting there for 2530 years. And the pickers will say, Well, I had it. It was I was definitely wanted to finish it, but I got it done. And it's not just a little bit of stuff. It's barn after barn after buying and keep thinking here. So is that stuff just distracting me? Or what? Because there's no way possible that anybody's going to finish doing half of what the stuff is that I see. It's just that it's like an addiction. I call it an addiction. So I get the UFOs. Now, we all know the tortoise won the race, through focus and physical stamina and determination. What is it that you want our listeners to know about tenacity and determination? Because that's a big one. And I'm sure when you're when you are coaching people. You know, one of the things that I'm noted for, I would say, is my tenacity and my determination. This is my 16th year of the show. And most people say, how did you get to almost 1000 podcasts? It's like, they can't even believe that I've stayed around. But, you know, I love what I do. And I think that's part of it, you've got to love it. And you then you really have to stick with it. It's not always Wine and Roses, it isn't always great. But you get through those and then you keep improving how you do it your process, then it becomes easier, you know, so speak to them about tenacity and determination.

Donna Dahl
tenacity and determination are based in commitment. You know, you when I was I had applied for acceptance into matcher studies. And at the time, I was a single parent mom. Holding down a full time paying job and wanting to improve my credentials. got accepted. And I'm approaching five years in the program when I get called into the office of the of the department head telling me that I was running out of time. Wouldn't I just rather accept a diploma instead of a master's? And call it a day? I said no, it's my intention to finish my master's and all I need is one more year. I still had some coursework to do And I still needed to write the thesis. But I was given the extension, and I completed the Master's. In fact, my thesis was 169 pages long and my family committee had been changed recently. That is commitment. That's,

Greg Voisen
that is commitment. I think it's it and true and everything that you that you go out to complete, right. And maybe, and I think this is the most important thing is, for my listeners, this would be important. The attachment to the outcome is not what we're talking about. It's the journey toward the outcome. That's the most important, it doesn't always turn out exactly like you thought. But what creates disappointment in your life, is this huge disappointment, if you've set this stretch goal or whatever in your life, and you don't get there, and then you start beating yourself up for it. And you said that earlier in this interview, it's okay to be second, right even okay to be third, the point is, you were still in the game. And I think that's an important point of this whole book, you know, of our interview. And there's a takeaway there. And I'm going to ask you about that he has a lot of great stories and examples in the book. And if you were to leave our listeners with three sound bits of advice regarding speed, tenacity, determination, commitment, what would you like to leave them with? And how could they apply it to their lives, like really, immediately as a result of listening to this podcast?

Donna Dahl
Well, thank you for the question. The I think one of the things that that is really important to reflect on strategy, and what influences strategy. We've talked about strategy being entering the game. The strategy could be based on a time element. strategy could be based on simply attempting to respond to circumstances in our environment. So what let's get in touch with what is our what is our strategy for moving forward? The second point that I'd like to make help you with bias, and that is that there are elements in the book where I address things that we value, are we are we more prepared to value speed? Are we more prepared to value tenacity? Are we more prepared to value finishing? Or are we more prepared to value getting engaged, we need to the front or bias in order that we can perhaps create a different realm of influence when it comes to diversity and inclusion. Last point I'd like to make has to do with challenge. And in the afterword, in my book I write that challengers inspire us to take time, long before we might ever become giant. Oh, I would like to challenge all those who are listening today to consider the possibility of reaching, stretching, accepting a challenge, accept my challenge to pick lessons I learned from the tortoise, my book to be your Manu, as you proceed with your leadership. That's a

Greg Voisen
that's very sound advice. For my listeners, many of them might already know or maybe they don't know. But I have a co-authored book coming out called Life on the precipice that was co-written with Beau Parfitt and Cathy Sparrow. And it's all about the expedition climbers and extreme athletes, and how they stay committed and determined to reach their goals. It's those ones like we say, I have one gentleman I interviewed he climbed Everest 17 times. So if you can imagine the determination it takes To do that that many times, it's pretty amazing. And most of the people, I would say, after having interviewed all these advanced climbers, it's tenacity, determination, and commitment. And those are three great words. Because that's the only way you're ever going to achieve those lofty goals that they had. So Donna, it's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth. And for my listeners, again, go to Donna P doll. dhl.com. You can learn more about her there. You can learn about her services as a coach, her business book development workshops and talks. spotlights on Donna. There's a blog as well, please visit that website. And we'll put a link to Amazon to this book, which is only available in Kindle format. It's $4.99. us so it's very inexpensive, something you can download and probably read within an hour or hour and a half, something like that. Very easy book to read and a good book to have to pull some of these tidbits out of so Donna, thanks for being on the show. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and background with us and as a coach if you're looking for a good coach. Go to Donna's website contact her there's a contact on a right in the left hand corner. Donna namaste to you. Thank you so much for your time today.

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Podcast 991: Wealth Creation for Coaches: A Workbook to Create a Prosperous Coaching Practice One Small Step at a Time with Kamin Samuel

My guest today is business and wealth consciousness coach, Kamin Samuel. She is also one of the authors of new book Wealth Creation for Coaches: A Workbook to Create a Prosperous Coaching Practice One Small Step at a Time, along with Steve Chandler.

Kamin started her professional career as the U.S. Navy’s first female African-American helicopter pilot. She transitioned to having several small businesses and then to corporate as a web developer at a computer electronics company. She is now an International Business and Executive Life Coach, and an IMPAQ B STATE® Coach, helping professionals increase their wealth mindset, improve performance, develop Breakthrough leadership skills, and create strategies to expand their opportunities.

Kamin also is a passionate writer. She has several bestselling books and just last December 2022, she, along with Steve Chandler, released a good to read book entitled Wealth Creation for Coaches: A Workbook to Create a Prosperous Coaching Practice One Small Step at a Time. This book provides a clear and proven step-by-step process for transforming potential clients into paying clients. It’s a practical workbook filled with exercises and action-steps for coaches that lead to building a thriving coaching practice and wealth that exceeds expectations.

If you want to know more about Kamin, you may click here to visit her website. You may also visit Kamin’s Wealth Creation for Coaches website by clicking here.

For free stuff from Kamin, please click here.

I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Kamin Samuel. Happy listening!

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.

Download New Tab

Greg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And I have Kamin Samuel joining us from San Clemente, California. And for my listeners, we both got master's degree in spiritual psychology at the same time at University of Santa Monica. Kamin, good morning to you.

Kamin Samuel
Good morning, Greg, it's wonderful to be here. Thank you so much for this opportunity.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's a pleasure having you on. And we were just saying, here we are. And we're, we were in a cohort group, and she only lives like, not that far from me. But we've got to go have lunch after this. So we're gonna do it. But it's a pleasure having you on and I know you've authored quite a few books. But the book we're going to be speaking about today, and I want to let my listeners know is wealth creation, for coaches, that she co-wrote with Steve Chandler. And for those of you who don't know, Steve, you can look him up. He has authored many books as well, and is really an expert on this topic. And we'll be mentioning that during the podcast, one of the other things I want to mention, is because Gay Hendricks has been on before is another book called The conscious lock workbook. Both of these books are workbooks, really. And, you know, and I gotta tell people, you know, you got to do the work to get there. That's the key. And if there's anybody who knows it, it's can mean and so, coming in, let me tell the listeners a bit about you before we get in to the actual podcast about you. But she's a rapid transformational business and wealth mindset coach, who is passionate about assisting our clients and identifying and clearing their inner blocks to achieve greater success in all areas of their lives. She holds a PhD in positive neural psychology and Master's in Science in Information System, a Master of Arts, in spiritual psychology, and a Master of Science in spiritual science. She's the author of multiple bestselling books, including the conscious luck workbook we just mentioned a second ago, co-written with New York Times bestselling author, Gay Hendricks, and Carol Klein, his wife, and his wife is his Oh, she's not as right. Okay, well, all this time, I didn't know. Katie is his wife. Her and her newest book, which we just talked about is this wealth creation for coaches, co-written with Steve Chandler. This is an extraordinary workbook. With tools, really, that's what we're gonna get into actionable tools to take steps to change your life and to change the lives of other people as well. Well, can mean, you know, there's always an inspiration behind building a book, you know, and it's not like, Oh, I just have to punch out another book. Fortunately, because of our background, hopefully, there was some intuition that came into the process saying, Hey, I've got to try and figure out how to write to people who want to be coaches. Tell us a bit about your background and history as an ex-Navy, helicopter pilot and coach, because I think that's important. Also, with both you and Steve, you both you both struggled early on in your career financially. You even right after, you know, being a Navy helicopter pilot, so I think that kind of sets the framework for, hey, look, you can't, you're not an overnight success. But, but at the same time, you have an opportunity to take little stair steps. And you actually mentioned that one of your chapters is about stair stepping. So tell us a little bit about you, and why you wrote this book, and what you think you can do for my listeners out there who want to be a coach.

Kamin Samuel
Oh, God, thank you, thank you again for having me. And, and I am very proud of this book. I'm proud of all of my books for this one in particular, because it really it really shows the arc. I'm really working with, you know, people on the arc of their career and, you know, starting off as a Navy helicopter pilot, you know, I struggled to become that, you know, I and then I and I did and I did well and was a flight instructor and, and I loved helping people learn. So most of my come from a long line of educators and so this idea of helping coaches or business owners or pilots or whatever learn has always been a part of, of kind of my DNA and so that's why I love workbooks, because as you said, it takes more work and, and I want people to be in the middle of it. And so when I went through the military, I always I didn't want to be a Navy helicopter, pilot I really just wanted to go into business. And through a course of action, I went in that direction. And then when I got out, I went into business for myself and I failed miserably. I ended up in bankruptcy and foreclosure of two homes and had to rebuild myself. I went into something that I love, which is technology and grew my corporate career there and all along, you know, people would come to me and ask me for help. And I wasn't, you know, I was just good at helping people. And I knew, at one point, and in one of our projects at school, we were watching our energy a lot in the second year and, and I knew that I was going to have a great day when someone came to me and said, Hey, can you can we go in the conference room? And we close the door? And they start crying? And I'm like, yes, with, there's somebody I can help today. So this idea of really, poaching has been with me a long time. And, and this book was actually born, Greg out of me working with Steve for I've been working with him for over nine years now.

Wow. Well, oh, falling is not failing.

Greg Voisen
As long as you get back up, and I've had my own setbacks, and then think you know, about some of them as well, you know, I had to declare bankruptcy. I had several failed companies. I put millions of dollars into things that I wish I had those millions of dollars from. But you know, that's the journey. It's like, when you get in a helicopter, and you go up in the air, and I heard this reference just the other day, you don't ever know if it's going to be a smooth flight or not. It can be bumps along the way, right? There can be lots of bumps or can be turbulence. And life is like that. Sometimes you fly across the country, you never hit any pockets of crazy air. Other times, you know, you're gonna hit some spots. It's crazy air. And if there's anybody knows that, that's you. So you state this workbook is not about getting rich quickly. And I would agree with that. Because, you know, I was saying to the last guy that I was just talking to, you know, I'm going to be 69 in July. And I'm like, looking at going, wow, where did the time go? How do you address the common misconception that coaches sit should not focus on making money, but be more focused on becoming the best coaches that they can. And I think when you're a new coach, whether you're coaching a business, or in group coaching, or individual coaching, you have this thing like, oh, boy, I'm gonna be a coach, and I'm gonna make millions of dollars right away, right? And that rarely ever happens.

Kamin Samuel
Rarely. And coaches really, you know, a lot of what I hear is, you know, I want to be a six figure coach. And I'm like, well, well, how much did you make last year? Yeah. $12,000. So let's talk about

Greg Voisen
catapult you into half a million dollars from $12,000.

Kamin Samuel
Yeah. And this also goes, Greg, for those people who are at 250,000, who want to make 500,000 Next year, or 750, or a million dollars the following year, right? It's really this opportunity for us to realize that coaching is really the only profession in Steve's lives. That requires personal and professional development all the time. And so we have to work on ourselves, we have to be the ability for us to develop our own good habits, how do we talk to people our skills, what's bothering us, our own mental blocks, the ability for us to clear those and move forward in our lives will then dictate, you know, how we help others, because we're really many times as coaches, we're just a, just a few steps ahead of somebody else. So true.

Kamin Samuel
And so,

Greg Voisen
you know, and you're learning from your clients, right? And, and all the time, all the time. And as you continue to take in this wisdom, the wealth of information, and you turn that information into positive advice, you can actually is, you know, you can take case studies in and protect them with by not using the name and actually start to relate those things to other people. Right.

Kamin Samuel
Can I think here? Yeah, because one of the things about me moving their careers forward is, especially when it comes to money. There are two aspects. One aspect is, again, are you coaching and helping people, we can't be in our head thinking about coaching, to get better at coaching, you actually have to be, you know, in the game of coaching and helping people to help them transform, and get coached at the same time that's in whether it's you're doing with peers, or you hire a coach, whatever. But that upgrading that wisdom is so important to the development. And then being able to set a first value, check it out, test it with somebody on what your fees are. So that get some money for your, for your, for your skills, and abilities. It has nothing to do with your worth, it has everything to do with your skills and what you believe. And

Greg Voisen
I kind of go by this axiom. You can't be a coach, if you're not coachable, you know, meaning? Does the coach have a coach? Right? In your case? I'm sure it was Steve. And that's how you got down this path going down this path? And on that front? Because you both struggled early on, and many people do. And you're not going to go from 12,000 to probably a quarter million, it's probably not going to happen. Not that it couldn't, but probably not. What advice do you have for coaches about embracing their own worth and worthiness? You have a great quote in the book from Nathaniel Braden, we must become what we wish to teach. And so comment on that, because I think if you're going to be a coach, and I don't, I'm gonna just gonna say this. You have to feel like you're enough. Yeah. Right. And so many people have problems with feeling enough.

Kamin Samuel
Well, that's actually, you know, I also am a certified actually a Clinical Hypnotherapist. And so this ability, that's what a lot of the work that I do in that room with my clients, I only do that hypnotherapy with my clients in kind of a program because I need to, to work with them on first, where did they come to believe that they're not enough? Right? What did they hear what that set at a very usually at a very young age, sometimes older, but that usually sources back to a young age, and that ability for us to heal and upgrade Am I enough so that, as I said a moment ago, where they're not paying you for what you're worth, they're paying you for your skills and abilities and the transformation that's on offer. And so coaches, that's what I meant about personal development, we have to keep upgrading who we are and what we're about. So that the worth question isn't on the table and my worth $100,000 Am I worth whatever, you're priceless? Or is the program that you're offering worth? $100 $3,000 $10,000 Whatever. So this ability for us to upgrade and the book well, it's designed for coaches I've also had business owners really love this book, because we're talking about we go through this process of chapter three is about clearing the limiting beliefs. What did you hear? Did you hear that you're too old, too fat too skinny, too young, to something not enough? And how do we check change those messages and then be able to design what it is that we'd like to create and move forward?

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and you know, you were talking about hypnosis and I'm going to introduce you to Dr. Steve bourbon here in Del Mar. He is my hypnosis guy that I go to my default guy. And you know, the subconscious talk about that for a second because, you know, hey, look, when you're really helping somebody, it's what's going on in the subconscious mind. And that frequently is the underworld that we don't give that much thought to. Okay, but when you get hypnotized if that's the way you want to refer this to or kind of put in a trance. It's interesting, the power of suggestion that that a hypnotist can have on you by just saying certain things as you're laying there. Right. And I think that I want to go to this part about the subconscious because that's where we've programmed all these limiting beliefs

Kamin Samuel
are in there. And part of the reason I became a hypnotist hypnotherapist was because I had worked with clients, they were getting a lot of progress. And then suddenly they stopped. And I thought I knew all of their stories. And then and I like to think of the way I do hypnotherapist very just relax, I'm not going to, you're not going to cluck like a chicken. Just going to relax. And the subconscious will tell us what's going on where did these ideas come from. And under hypnosis, I was surprised at how, how many stories of people I had known for years that came forward that I didn't know was running underneath. And here's the key, Greg that we don't understand. If a sum of a belief, like I'm not enough, which is the core belief, as you said to everyone that set 345 years old. 50 6070 That belief still thinks you're five years old, and is still why we act out we have temper tantrums, we get sad, we get whatever that is, that feels the same to what happened to us when we were five. And so I love working with the with the subconscious mind and rewiring first identifying root cause beliefs that are in there, and then rewiring it because you can set a new pathway

Greg Voisen
and speak about the neuro neuroplasticity because, you know, we may have some people that doubt what we're talking about a bit. I probably doubted if they're listening to this show. But the reality is there.

There is this

Greg Voisen
thing you need to do with your subconscious mind. And the more you do it, the more you reprogram it, the neuroplasticity plasticity, about these limiting beliefs can shift. Yes. And so what do you do with clients? When you're doing hypnotherapy? I know this talk wasn't about hypnotherapy. It was about your coaching book. But that's probably it's probably part of it. Yeah, yeah. So what could you explain to someone listening right now, that may be saying something's holding me back? But I don't know what's holding me back.

Kamin Samuel
Yeah, and the other way that looks in terms in addition to something's holding me back, and I don't know what it is, is I can't change it. Right. I'm just this way. This is the way I'm wired. And what scientists is found, this is why I wouldn't got a PhD and positive neuro psychology was to find all the woo words that I knew about how to change people, and change behaviors. To find the science behind it was they've studied up to an only up to the age 97 that our brains can rewire themselves, they can learn. And so that is that is something that is actually happening in our brains that it can learn and can fire off new patterns. And so what we in as far as in the book, and I'm talking about as well. And in my practice, we're talking about, what's the new belief? If I'm not enough, then what's, what's the positive to that? Well, I am enough. And that's foundational. You can write it on a mirror and lipstick or whiteboard marker, you can put it I have it three by five cards, I have it on my watch at 11am. Every day, it tells me I am enough, and I look at it and I take that in like nourishment to my body. And so the ability for us to rewire and set new neural pathways by they're not affirmations. They're not like I am wealthy, because the ego is going to knock you over your head and say no, you're not that's not possible. You look at your debt. Well, you can rewire it for just the feeling of wealth. What would it feel like to have an extra $100? What would it feel like to have a client say yes, what would it feel like to have a new contract sign? Those kinds of things, and the more we rehearse them, it takes anywhere from you. We all have heard 21 days I've heard 32 days 66 and 365 days. So it takes time. We didn't get that belief overnight. We rehearse it there's a lot in the book about what you what you rehearse, you become. And so what we want to do is choose what we rehearse and move into that.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I remember interviewing Elizabeth gold. She's a friend of David Meltzer. And her book is called feeling forward. Right? Great title because when you think about it, it's like, I want to get this feeling. I want to immerse myself in what it would be like to be worth X dollars or have this great outcome. I know there's To term and I can't remember right now about thinking about our thinking, you know, we use, what was the term we used it USM? You don't have to believe everything you think. Right? And I think that's an important element here. Because absolutely, you know, what happens is we have a thought, and the thought, then we have it again. And then it turns into a belief. And then it becomes a permanent part of that subconscious, which then continues to kind of play itself out and we go, well, I can never have that I'm not worthy of that I can do whatever. So how do you identify that? And how do you get rid of those patterns, and beliefs?

Kamin Samuel
Most people at least know the first couple of beliefs that they have, actually, they just have to listen to them. So there's some exercises in the book. And that's why I love giving people, you know, exercises to actually write down what is it that they're hearing, there's a checklist of beliefs in the book that they can check off first, and then find out how it plays out. I'm not enough, might show up as I'm not worth that kind of money, nobody will pay me that kind of money. Well, we can flip that to a new belief that says, I'm open to somebody paying me that money, I'm open to sharing my gifts and abilities in a way that it would be a service to someone. And so the ability for us to start to shift and then write them down and then read them. I have people put them on three by five cards, set timers, whatever to reset. Because there are no really permanent beliefs. It's only that we hold on to them. I have a couple of other tools, I have this thing called the inactive box that I got from Esther Hicks and Abraham Hicks, which is basically, if you've got a belief that says something, just write it down, put it in the box, just deactivate it. I also tell my clients and you know, like I'm belief goes in like just see it go into the trash. You don't it doesn't have to pause, you don't have to give it any credibility. Don't get back to work.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah, that's so important. So you work in conjunction with Steve, and there's this coaches prosperity school. And you're a teacher there, or a coach there. Tell the listeners a bit about Steve, the coaches, prosperity school, and your involvement as a coach through the school so that they know that hey, they can come to you, they can go over there. You're part of a big community of people that are part of Steve's team. But I would assume that's part of where you're getting your clients.

Kamin Samuel
Yes. And I love Steve's program because he ran several programs that were live over the years. And that was caught one way that I took five times was the advanced client systems, all about creating clients. And so he has put a lot of interviews with coaches myself included on the online prosperity school and, and so for all listeners, it doesn't matter whether you choose me or someone else, it's really about finding resonance, and finding someone who you can learn and grow from and expand. And there are lots of there's a ton of videos on there to help both understand from different coaching styles of prosperous coaches who have learned from Steve and worked with him. But then there are also some teaching elements that Steve has, that really will help somebody on a daily weekly monthly basis begin to grow their careers.

Greg Voisen
Well on wealth creation coaching.com That's well creation for coaches coaches.com. And we'll put a link to that in the blog. Well, creation for coaches.com. You have some free giveaways for the listening audience. So they can go there put in their name and their email address. And you've got some videos, you got some downloadable PDFs, you give away a lot is what you said to me. And I think for the listeners, you ought to take advantage for that. So wealth creation coaching.com

Kamin Samuel
Yes, wealth, wealth creation for coaches.com book site and you know, I didn't tell you this, but there's another site where they can get a ton of resources from me. And that's the wealth flight school.com Well, flight school.com Yeah, and that's the free that's all the free stuff, the wealth creation for coaches. is, is if you buy the book there are I taken many of the worksheets that are in the book and made PDFs out of them. There are a bunch of videos on the front page that you get access to just for me and Steve. And then there's some videos, one of my favorite chapters in the book actually turned out to be a bonus chapter, which is the anatomy of an enrollment call. And many people are always asking me, you know, tell me what, what do you do on an enrollment call. And so I wrote that out, there are videos on in the bonus areas from the book, but on wealth flight school.com, there is like a, there's several PDFs of my other books, anything that you want, and they can always reach out to me directly. If they want something else, I'm complete,

Greg Voisen
you can also get her at comedian Samuel S A M uel.com. And that's k m i n, so you can reach her there. So we'll put all these links for everybody. Sorry, I

Kamin Samuel
want to give as much cuz I really want my I'm really on a mission to help people, especially coaches and business owners create a sustainable and thriving business. They feel good. This is their calling they chosen whatever their career is, and to move into them.

Greg Voisen
Well, along that line, I want you to speak about this stair stepping approach. I mentioned it earlier, and setting stretch goals and the implications that this can have if we don't reach those goals. I know, I used to be somebody that set stretch goals, and I hardly ever made them. And I always thought to myself, Why am I doing that to myself, I feel like I'm beating myself up. If you would speak about the negativity biases, and that you referred to in the book by Jonathan is at Hyatt I called the happiness hypothesis. Because you know, that cognitive dissonance, I'm gonna call it between this is what I said. And the reality is, and it's a challenge. It's a challenge.

Kamin Samuel
It is and we are more than negativity bias is that we are more negative than positive. Exactly. We are naturally. So if anybody is listening, and they're like, you know, they think that they're the only ones who are negative, no, we're inherently negative, it's part of our survival mechanism, right? To keep us alive, we have to be on alert back in the day. And so, for me, I love to set stretch goals, but then I have to really bring it down to what's doable. And so a lot of the work I do is, what's the next step? What's the next step, because what happens in that negativity bias, if we create if we set a goal that's too high, in between this one, and this one, all the limiting beliefs, I can do this, nobody's gonna pay me I'm not good enough that all of that, and we literally just fall off a cliff. And so the ability for us to then look at, okay, this, we're here, we're here, little, very little negativity can get in. And so let's take an example of a client who says they say made 35,000 last year, and they want to make, you know, six figures. Well, the first thing is to bring it into, okay, well, 35, what's, what's a doable goal for next year? Initially, you can have the stretch goal, but it might be 50,000. And who would you need to be to get to 50,000? What would you be doing? What are the new actions and habits that you will be putting into place? And so this ability to stair step doesn't mean you might find that within six months, you hit 50,000. If we slow ourselves down, and take the step by step approach, versus this leap, where I have to like be, you know, Tony Robbins to believe that I can make $100,000 this year. Now let's, let's make sure Oh, that's just one or two more clients in this year. Okay, that's doable. Let's go work on that. And then And then, you know, this plot of, you know, lines that then get you to that, I will say, the getting these images, the artists who designed it was the stepping stones, the stepping stones, I love this, this, the artwork that was done for and there were there were iterations because some of the stones were too far apart and some of the stones were, you know, were too sharp. And so this ability, it was very conscious and literal for me, that people be able to take a step pause. See where they are. The other issue, if you go too big is the upper limit, you can trigger and this comes from Gay Hendricks work is you could trigger an upper limit if you reach that number, and I've had clients exceed their goals, and then ratchet themselves and self-sabotage, because they hadn't hadn't grown inside of themselves to own that they are at that next level. And so they pull themselves back. Well, one of the things

Greg Voisen
that you had it, you have had an advantage, and, and I don't think that a lot of people have that advantage. I mean, it's like, training to climb Mount Everest, right? You just don't get up one day and say, I'm gonna go up Everest. And the reason I say that, as I just finished a book called the precipice of life, which I interviewed 22 people, one guy climbed Everest 17 times. And it's just not, it's just not doesn't work that way. And as a pilot, you know, you are in a simulator, right? I think mountain climbers are in simulators, they have to go to certain areas where they can acclimate, you know, they learn how to do that. And they keep doing step by step by step by step, so that they can get to the 26,000 feet, right. But you speak with our listeners about what you refer to as the wealth exercise is a simulator and how replaying our vision of wealth can help us manifest it into reality. Because it's like, we need a simulator.

Kamin Samuel
Do you need a simulator? And I love the wealth simulator, because this idea of, you know, learning like there were so many steps. People say, Well, how did you become a pilot? Well, they had it nailed on, on the process to become a pilot. So it's not like you just walk out there one day and so for us as coaches and the well simulators, really something I picked up from the power of your subconscious mind by Joseph Murphy. Annie has a passage in there on wealth consciousness and, and it just stood out. And it was really just repeating the word wealth, not I am wealthy, as I said before, but wealth, what would it feel like? And so this ability for coaches or business owners, also to get an idea, whatever that next step is that next doable, believable step for them is in their business is full. Just take a few minutes in the morning, and as you go to sleep, what would it feel like to have that next client? What would it feel like to see $100 $5,000? Whatever the number come in, what you're listening for, when you're saying it's like, what would that feel like? I'm always listening for? Well, who would I be at that? What would I be doing? It might, I might get an idea, reach out to this person action items will come in, when we're feeling from that place of what we're doing that say, okay, reach out to him reach out to her send an email, oh, you need to do this. Those things begin to clear a path. And then all of a sudden, there's like this magic that happens, where you reach out to somebody, they're like, I was just thinking of you. Let's have a call. And there's just a synchronicity and flow to what you're there creating.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think you call it the power of attraction, you start to bring that in as you. I mean, affirmations have always been a big thing in the world. Right. And creating affirmations and I and I believe in them, they're important, because it helps to reprogram the subconscious, no matter how you're doing it. And, and you state, that it took you a long time from thinking about being a coach to becoming a working prosperous coach. That's the same thing with a businessperson. I think you're talking about six figure income. But you know, and I don't want to get into this so crazy at this point. But you know, you can gross six figures, but that doesn't mean you're netting because of your expenses, and that's all about budgeting and looking at what you're spending money on and everything else and then people go well, and it grows this much money, but what did you really earn? Roger? That's right. So speak with us about listeners about what you refer to as solving the procrastination puzzle that you referred to and what's his doctor's name? Dr. P yc. A.

Kamin Samuel
Cycle I think,

Greg Voisen
psycho and I know that for a fact Pardon me, but procrastination is a big part of this. And you have to look at why are you procrastinating? And you and I know this because what is it that you don't believe you deserve in your life? Great.

Kamin Samuel
I'd like to look at it as you know, if someone I actually love when someone says they've been procrastinating, that, to me is the most fun. Because what I want to know is between the time you said you were going to do something, and the time you didn't do it, what was the story? What did you tell yourself? About your abilities? Who, you know, what do you know? Can you do this? Whatever, because that's gold for a coach. Right? And for us, as coaches like me, for me, I procrastinate. I know exactly. I know, you know, I tell people, I'm running a group and I had them write down, what does it look like when you are hiding from work? Like, if you're not successful, what will you have been doing? And for me, it's actually cleaning in the middle of the day. If I'm cleaning in the middle of the day, I know that I am, I am absolutely procrastinating. And I need to and I just need to bring my awareness to it. Maybe jot a finish maybe what I was doing, quickly, put a time limit on it, and then write down. What is it that I'm worried about? What is it I'm afraid of? Is it that I is it that the steps that I have are too big and I need to break and chunk them down into you know, as we talked, we've learned three foot tosses. Because many times, it's just the story, it means nothing that we procrastinate. It's just the story. Let's get in and get at

Greg Voisen
it. Yeah, well, you know, put down the Mr. Clean bottle and the rag and go back to work. I actually think sometimes it's there at all say this about bike riding, hiking, taking a walk on the beach, there's a level of solitude. So in your case, it might just be the cleaning, if you are trying to get away from I think the complexity. Yeah, there's so much complexity involved in owning a business today. And, and I don't want to make that a statement to scare people. I want to make it a statement to tell people that you can master that complexity. But we have to deal with it,

Kamin Samuel
and break it down to something that's doable for them. Yeah,

Greg Voisen
yeah, exactly. You know, because some people time block, some people don't. Some people set their calendars up some people don't. You, you really have to find where you resonate really well with this. And there are people that are making very good money at doing coaching and running businesses. I got clients, they don't time block, they just you know, they're add their ADHD, they're all over the place. Yet. They have people skills, they've got great people skills, so they find other people to do that. Right. So, you know, you kind of look at but you speak about a very important element you call client creation time. You mentioned it about five minutes ago. Can you tell the listeners what it is and how to go about creating clients? Because look, that's the acquisition phase of this business. And I love that chapter because you gave lots of tips and lots of things that people could do. If there was one chapter you roughed out, you wanted to rip out of the book, it was probably the client creation one. Right?

Kamin Samuel
Right. And that actually, we did make into a checklist and I have people like print it out and put it on their screen, so that they come in. Because with that, it's like it's more prescriptive, Greg, that I wanted to be. But I also it was a literal answer to a client in one of my groups. It was like, I don't know what to do now. And I'm like, oh, here, I don't want you to think about it. Just go to this list and choose something today that that would be of service to somebody. And when

Greg Voisen
you pardon me for interrupting. When I saw that chapter, I remember an interview with Pamela Slim. Do you know who she is now? Okay, Senator, he you shed and she was telling a story in the book about, oh, these people that are running their businesses and how they procrastinated. And she just like you gave a checklist to this woman whose business had gone down the other side and she was so depressed. And she said, what are what did you stop doing that you were doing? Because that's what happens you Oh, I'm gonna go clean, I'm getting Mr. Clean out, go do this, because I'm avoiding doing that other stuff. Because I think there's too much rejection. But whatever it is she, she did it. And she literally escalated the business three times greater than what it was from the checklist. So you give a checklist in that thing. And I'm telling listeners right now, go buy this book, and just go to that section about the creation,

you will have quadrupled your money, just from that one chapter.

Kamin Samuel
Because many people come in and they and they're like, I don't I don't know what to do. I've talked to everybody. Have you really talked to everybody? And so there's a list of like, you know, you can email you could do client astonishment, meaning, like, I've called Client in the middle of the day, and they're like, what's wrong, like? And I'm like, No, I just wondered that you came to mind, I just wanted to see how you're doing. You're working on this project. And they were like, Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. And so

Greg Voisen
class honors, man, I love it.

Kamin Samuel
You can send a book, you can email, you can create a video, but we want to make sure that we're using it, not just not just again, again, procrastinating by we're working on our website, I have people like, no, you work on your website, at TV time, at night, or after working hours. But be in motion, share your life, share what you're doing. If you're going to write something, write it and send it to one person then posted on your website or posted in social media. But the core is really to come back and get centered and ask themselves who could I serve, and just listen, and take action, and then do it again, over and over again. And there's a whole host of things that they can choose from?

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's a wonderful world out there, we have so many tools, you know, somebody told me about chat GPT, which I know almost everybody, it's da, I need it. But I have not, I don't know what it's all my gosh, I got involved in it. And it's writing all my emails for me and doing it's, it's crazy. But the point is, is that your book is filled with really great advice for like bidding coaches, as well as well, seasons, coaches, as well as business entrepreneurs. This book really kind of fits that whole spectrum. If you were to give our listeners today, three bits of actionable advice that they could leave with today from this podcast, and literally Institute within the hour, right? I'm gonna go do what can mean set and you think it would make a change or a shift and help them transform one element of their life? What would that be?

Kamin Samuel
So I think that's such a great question. And it's like, okay, what would the first one would be first was look at your beliefs. Look at look at what you want to create, and what is the belief that has been holding you back from actually taking action, and then rewrite it right away, put it on, I have three by five cards all the time, three by five cards, that it's just the way I work, is to write it and put it in front of you that new belief, oh, I am enough. That's another thing. Write it on your mirror. I am enough. Put it everywhere. Because the more we can see that and own that the more we can be move forward in our life, then it's number two would be then what's that first step? Where are you? And what's that next doable? Maybe a teeny bit of stretch, but not this big? What's that next step? And what are what are some action items and go do those. And then the last one really is just the third one is move into action, move into action be of service to somebody today. There are so many we know that there are so many people who are suffering right now. And the coaches and business owners who are really coming from their gifts and they're calling to do their thing in the world. Go do that be of service share yourself, help somebody today whether you get paid or not use the testimonial but allow it to nourish you we get nourished when we're giving and serving. So the ability for that exchange and allow them to pay you if that's you know, I come from the prosperous coach world from the Steve Chandler and rich livin the ability for us to give and receive is so much a part of this coaching practice. Yeah,

Greg Voisen
I echo everything you said and I'll add one additional thing To create action in your life, you have to be have a high level of awareness of what it is that you're doing, or not doing. So whether it's mindfulness practices or meditation, or whatever you're going to be doing. from a spiritual standpoint, it's very important to get into that connection and listen to that higher spirit that higher power. And we've been on with communion Samuel, this is one of the books wealth creation for coaches, we'll have links to all other websites. The other one that she co-wrote with Gay Hendricks and Carol Klein is this one though, the conscious luck workbook. This one is equally as good by the way, folks. So you know, go out and get it, go out and get a copy actually get a copy of both of these right? I'll put them both up. There you go. And, but coming, thank you so much. Namaste to you. Thank you for being on inside personal growth and spending some time with the listeners, providing them with some wisdom and some coaching on how to become a good coach, and also how to become a good businessperson just generally overall, and running your business. So thank you.

Kamin Samuel
Thank you.

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Podcast 990: Build Your Village: A Guide to Finding Joy and Community in Every Stage of Life with Florence Ann Romano

Joining me for my 990th episode is village and childcare advocate and philanthropist, Florence Ann Romano. She has a new book entitled Build Your Village: A Guide to Finding Joy and Community in Every Stage of Life to be released on February 21.

Being a former nanny of 15 years, Florence has always have a special place in her heart for children. She has the authority on childcare and family support in this new millennium and has more than five hundred media appearances discussing these topics and has been featured on ABC/CBS/ NBC and FOX TV affiliates, Home & Family, The Jenny McCarthy Show, SiriusXM, and more. Now, Florence serves on the Executive Board of the Children’s Research Fund (CRF) at Lurie’s Children Hospital and is a founding member of Sesame Streets Leadership Council.

With her advocacies, Florence is set to release a book on February 21 entitled Build Your Village: A Guide to Finding Joy and Community in Every Stage of Life. In this book Florence answers these questions and more, helping you to build lasting relationships with those in your life, dispel isolation, and improve your overall happiness and health. Each chapter helps you to foster the villager qualities within yourself and to find others who display these qualities.

If you want to know more about Florence, you may click here to visit her website.

I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Florence Ann Romano. Happy listening!

 

 

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.

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Greg Voisen
Welcome back Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from the Windy City in Chicago is Florence Ann Romano. And we were just talking about how cold it is there. Good day to you. How are you?

Greg Voisen
Good day to you. It's bitterly cold, but it's a nice warm feeling here with you. So all good.

Greg Voisen
Thank you for that, and before we get going, because we're going to be talking about a new book that releases very shortly called Build your village. And this book is going to be out on the 21st of February. But you can pre order now on Amazon. So no problems there. Go ahead and get your pre order a guide to finding joy and community in every stage of life. Let me tell the listeners a little bit about you. I'm Florence and Romano is a personal growth strategist, philanthropist and an author. In this new book we're going to be speaking about, you'll get to learn more. It's beyond words book, which is a great publisher, so great place to go. She's always had a special place in her heart for family and community. She worked as a childcare provider for 15 years, and believes the key to family success lies in focusing on what she calls the trifecta, parent, child and caretaker, working in unison toward common family goals. She's been featured all over the place. If you go to our website at Florence and.com. You will see she's been on 500 National local outlets. Across the country, ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, home and family, the Jenny McCarthy show series examine more. As we said she resides in Chicago. She earned her degree in performance theater at Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois, and is served as the president and founder of a nonprofit board dedicated to autism awareness, and now serves on the executive board of children Research Fund at Lori's Children's Hospital, and is a founding member of Sesame Street Leadership Council. Well, you have been a busy woman. And I can appreciate that because I know when you do charitable work, it takes a lot of your time. And you're really dedicated to that. And I really appreciate that because you're doing good. And that is its own community, the charities that you work with, but tell our listeners a little bit about what inspired you to write this book. Build your village and your background, you were known as the Windy City nanny for over 10 years. So when you see a lot of her interview, she'll see people talking to her about, you know, her being a nanny and how to take care of things. But when you think about it, there's a direct correlation there between that and actually building community

Greg Voisen
Well, thank you for that beautiful introduction, and I am going and reflecting all that back to you. You have such a beautiful way of showing your heart through throughout the philanthropy and I know myself and your listeners all are very inspired by that. So thank you for having me today. So as the Windy City nanny, I was in childcare for over 15 years, I feels like I'll totally different life now. And I think back on it, but it was the best time of my life. And not only was I a nanny for over 15 years, but I grew up in a multi-generational house. I'm an old fashioned Italian girl. My grandparents lived with us growing up, there was a point where my grandmother and I shared a bed for several years and, and then you know, they got older and we ended up becoming their caretakers. I also have a special needs brother. He's 35 and has autism. And he's always gonna have the mind of a child and that's always comes with its challenges too, but also beautiful in so many ways. So I feel like in my life, Greg, I've really been surrounded with a lot of opportunities to learn compassion, to learn caretaking to learn responsibility. And so it was a natural fit, I think for me to become a nanny in my life. And I did absolutely love it. I wrote my first children's book actually several years ago called nanny and need to help children learn about the transition of being cared for by their parents or a caretaker to being cared for by a nanny. And was always being cared care taken care of by their parents to them being taken care of by a nanny or caretaker. Because the truth is the statistic is over 65% of families in America today have a nanny or childcare of some kind. So it's not something that's trendy. It's really a part of our life today. And so I started really honing in and focusing in on what community looked like from a young age from the eyes of the nanny, but then also in my personal life. And so once I retired from being a nanny and started talking about childcare in the new millennium and how we build families in the dynamic of families, it started to give me a very different point of view about what it actually means to have village whether or not you have children.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's interesting you say that because you know you I'm sure for my listeners, they can see that correlation and I know I'm Even my son, I have a son that's 40 years old. And they have a full time nanny. They've got two kids, they live in the Bay Area. And it's a pretty common thing. For families. Sure, have nannies. And not only, not just part time nannies, we're talking like full time nannies.

Greg Voisen
Right? These are pairs the whole thing? Yeah.

Greg Voisen
Well, and they because today, it's a two income earnings situation, you know, and let's talk about that, because you mentioned the introduction in your book, that we obviously COVID helped this, it kind of thrusted forward, but we have a loneliness epidemic that plagues our country. And this social isolation increases a person's risk for death. Now, I totally understand that correlation from a psychological and a mental standpoint as well. And that turning into physical ailments that actually beget themselves from that, how do you recommend building the support structure and community and a village that we need to survive and thrive in these kinds of challenging times? Because, you know, it, I echo, I was telling you about Cormac in the community building, and we started talking about, you know, well, these people are isolated, and nobody's talking to one another as much anymore. We're not getting together in these groups. And, you know, we know that COVID had a lot to do with that. But it seems like we're in a really busy world these days. And everybody's busy, busy, busy, right? They don't have time. So how do you want to help people get these communities built? The intelligence,

Greg Voisen
both words work, you know, try whatever you say, you know, everyone has a lot of words for it. It comes down to first accepting that you're not happy with how things are going. And that's usually what leads us to looking for community are looking for more friendships, looking for more arms around us in some sort of way. But just like anything in life, what I have found to be the most challenging thing is I can sit here and tell you that I'm upset about a way my life is going, perhaps. But it's, it's beyond that, because I can say that this is something I don't like, but how am I going to actually fix it? Am I going to try and fix it? It sounds like such a fundamental question. And so simple, but it's not. That's right. Especially with COVID. You know, we all got used to the yoga pants and the Netflix and that was always just so much easier than actually having to socialize with people. And then, you know, to your point of, we're just very busy. Yes, we are very busy. But Shall I also maybe dare to say we've gotten a bit lazy, too, I think when it comes to wanting to make these relationships. And so to answer your original question, what do we actually need to do to build these support systems? We need to find out what it is that's missing. What it is that's making you feel like there is a void or you are feeling that loneliness, you're feeling that isolation? Well, where is it coming from? Why do you feel that way? So it's almost like a doctor diagnosing the issue. You have to start there.

Greg Voisen
I would agree. You know, in the challenge that everybody is faced with, and I did an interview recently with his last name is sax and he said, the future is analog. And he not only talks about how the computer look at us, we're able to do these interviews. Now. It's a pretty common thing. Pardon me, we'll make sure that that gets knocked out. We have these interviews, we have this ability with this technology. We've got it always on, we've got our cell phones as well. And it kind of in one sense, yeah, we are connected, but we're not connected. Personally, we're like, hey, how many people are still going to movie theaters, they're actually being closed down. Right? In our town. Here. We're seeing that how many people are just sitting and having popcorn together? How many people are just instead of using Uber Eats are actually going out to eat and saying, Hey, we're going to get a bunch of people together and go out to eat together, right? We're just now seeing that kind of come back a little bit more now. But throughout the book, you provide exercises and help the reader develop deeper relationships. And that's where I'm going with what are some of those exercises? And you spend much of the book talking about the qualities for six essential villagers which are accepting dependable cheerleader, communicator, healer and organizer. Those are basically the terms that you're using to define those eight If you would, what are some of those exercises and talk a little bit about those six elements or characteristics?

Greg Voisen
Well, the reason I wanted to develop the six care the six villagers was because I wanted to be able to relate to something that was tangible. I want it to be able to look within myself and others look within themselves and think, okay, how do I use something as a measuring stick to help me figure out how to make that first step? So these six villagers I identify with? And this is how I would hope you use the book to you listeners, do you think to yourself, Okay, out of these six, who am I? Do I possess all the qualities of these six villagers? Am I maybe three out of the six to whatever it might be? There's no right answer to that. But then also looking outside of it. I'm these people, but who are the people that I need to cast in these roles in my village? And then who am I being cast in these roles in someone else's village? Again, we're looking at two different lenses here two different camps. It's, who am I and who do I need and who am I to other people. And so to use the accepting villager, for example, and you mentioned the quizzes and the exercises, I wanted the book to read as interactive, I didn't want it to just be here's all this, you know, just me talking at you and not actually giving you something that's something you can execute on easily. Because nothing is worse than reading a book where you feel like this is a huge lift, this is overwhelming, there's no way I'm going to do this. So I wanted at the end of each chapter to have action steps and gut checks. So the gut checks are things that you're going to think about, I just read this chapter, what's resonating with me, and then the action steps, things that you can do today that are easy for you to make that step. And so you work at kind of like a workbook that interactive, like I said, that also that you can repeat in your life, too. Depending on how your life changes the season of your life, you can keep working these steps, and it's all going to depend on your environment. So using that accepting villager, for example, who's the first one I talked about in the book? One of the questions I asked in the exercises is when was the last time someone confessed a problem? Or a secret to you? And I know that might be like, gosh, it's a little invasive. I don't know if I want to really answer that question. I'm not asking you to tell anyone publicly. But the second question to that is, what was your reaction to that news? What was your initial reflex to it? That says a lot about kind of who you are as a person and what aligns with your values. And what does it when someone confesses something or someone wants to talk to you about something, get something off your chest, it's very difficult, I think, for human beings to really tap into what empathy truly is. And that's what we're starting to go with this too is okay, I may not have this exact experience, I may not even agree with what this person is necessarily doing. But I'm here to support in some way, what this person is revealing to me and maybe not even support, work through something give advice. If that's what they're asking for. It's about how am I able to meet someone where they are instead of where I want them to be?

Greg Voisen
Well, let's talk about it. Because you're saying there's you and are you identifying in one of those roles? These other five roles? In other words, which one? And maybe this was great for you, Florence? Which one? Do you relate to?

Greg Voisen
All things

Greg Voisen
because I know you talk toward the end of the book about a compassionate communicator, right. And I know when I got my master's degree in spiritual psychology, one of the things you had to learn to do and probably why you do podcasts, you have to be a good listener. And but you also have to listen with empathy and understanding. And it is take a lot of practice, right? It's like, most people want to tell you their story. And it's like they just dump on you, you know, bla bla bla bla bla bla bomb, right? And, okay, you have to be very patient to listen to all of that right? But of these things where you have a cheerleader and a healer I was interested in the healer part too, because these actually the, the terms that you're using to define it are really very important. Pardon me.

Greg Voisen
Well, what's interesting about that to Greg is I feel like without me giving any sort of definition attached to the have six listeners right now, let's say I never told you what I define those six to be. I guarantee you as soon as you and I were saying those words, you're sitting there thinking in your mind, oh, you know what my best friend is definitely the healer, I think I'm probably more dependable. Yeah, that cousin of mine is the communicator for our family, you're starting to cast people into those roles subconsciously, right away. And that's the point of this. That's what I want everyone to do is start doing that exercise intentionally. And also, reflexively, because that's human nature, I want people to understand that what is being asked here of you is not something that is such a far fetched concept, you do a lot of this work yourself without already maybe realizing it, it's just now actually making it intentional. So

Greg Voisen
putting up I think the label is, I know, a lot of times people don't want to put a label. But I will say in this case, it's important because the mix is so important to this, it's almost like baking a cake, right? Yeah, you gotta get it right. And these are all the elements that you have to put in it to have the right cake. And then you talk about values, values that people bring to the village. And you ask the reader to answer three important questions to evaluate their values. And anytime we do purpose work in life, we're going to actually be thinking about what are our values? What are those questions? And how can knowing our own values and the values of another meaning does other people make for building a better, more cohesive, cohesive village?

Greg Voisen
I think the word values oftentimes, Greg can scare people, because they think that's when you're going to start imposing your value system on them, or it's going to have some religious connotation to it. And so I don't know why. But I found there's some hesitation there. When people say that word, there's always a defense mechanism for some reason. So that's why I want to kind of strip that away and say, when we're talking about values, we're just talking about what makes you tick. What do you believe in what it you know? What, what is the what makes up the fiber of who you are? How do you live your life? How do you raise your children? How do you surround yourself with people that are aligned with you in that way not to say that you shouldn't align yourself with people that also challenge you in the right ways. And that that's something we can get into in a minute. These questions you ask yourself about values, though. Number one, what does the ideal community look like to you? Why does it look this way? And how do your values influence that village? And lastly, how do you deal with someone whose values conflict with your own gosh, there could be a whole course done on just that, because look at the world, the world we live in today, it's so difficult for people to you know, this agree to disagree sort of thing. And you're now we're so extreme on opposite sides of everything. And the pendulum swings so swiftly, and there's no black and everything's black and white, there's no gray area. So you know, this is a big component of how we build relationships in our life. And if we're surrounded by people that are only like us, cookie cutter versions of all of us, we're never going to learn anything, you know, that's, that's never going to make it help us evolve. But there's a big difference between finding people that are like minded in a way that are going to support your value system. As you raise your children as you figure out who you are as a person, how you want to live your life, versus surrounding yourself with people that are not accepting of you that are going to make you feel bad about yourself, condemn you, or whatever it might be. There, again, there's big, big differences there when it comes to values and how you surround yourself with people. But starting with what does my community look like? That's the most fundamental question you can ask yourself is, what am I really looking for? Is it a lot of people, a small group of people? Is it people that may be subscribed to the same type of religion or maybe also have, have also have or this can be another whole separate category, believe in philanthropy a similar way than I do? Similar way that I do, and that may be that's how I would join an organization. So I'd meet more people that have that same type of heart. Again, it's about figuring out how it looks to you and then building from there.

Greg Voisen
Well, in any of these, there's going to be a symbiotic kind of relationship. In other words, that's it seems to happen. people gravitate, and build these communities around like minded people, you know. Now that doesn't mean that you can't have conflict. Sometimes conflict is good, it helps to resolve issues. We're going to have it but I know when I've gotten involved doing this kind of work, that literally you find people that have values that are on the same air, they're in the same area, right. And, you know, you speak about drawing up a map to a village, right. And I think that's a really good turn a road map to kind of creating a village, speak with the listeners about creating the map and the questions that they need to ask before embarking on creating a village. Because your advocacy here is really about, go out and create villages, right? Get involved, right. And I get that you're trying to get people out of their chair, that are moving again, to actually have, whether it's a Zoom meeting, like we're having or physical meetings, we're just trying to get people to connect again, connect, right makes the connection, whatever it is. And so what would you say about that map?

Greg Voisen
Well, the reason I liked the visual of the map is because I hear so many people say to me all the time. So everyone talks about this village, it takes a village, it takes a village, well, where's the map? Where's the phone number to call? You know, what is going on here? So I like the idea of okay, well, yeah, there is a map like, look, that's what this book is about, it's giving a map to that village. But to me, it's, it's, you know, someone's got to drive there, if you're going to, you know, go to this village, you know, and that's you, you have to be a part of this solution. And so let's look at it from different categories, perhaps let's say you're a college student, or you're a new parent, as a college student, sometimes that can be a jarring transition for kids, you know, you've never been on your own before that way. And now you are going to be at a new school, maybe in a new state, maybe in a new country, who knows. And you're going to have to meet new people and put yourself out there. So maybe you're going to join Greek Life sorority fraternity, or a club, that something that you're interested in is a passion of yours is a hobby of yours, okay, you're going to start meeting people, that's a really great way to put yourself out there and maybe make those friends. As a new parent, you're going to join those Mommy and Me or daddy and mommy groups, or you're going to get involved in your local community house that you have, or a church that has, you know, a group of people that meets on a weekly basis or a carpool group or things like that, I could go into so many details about things that exist that way. But beyond that, though, it's asking yourself questions to in order to develop that roadmap, how long do I need this village? How many villagers? Am I looking for? How much time do I have to give? And how can I remove myself from a village if need be, I know you don't want to think already about removing yourself from a village when you're trying to build it. But sometimes you do get involved and people places things like that, and it's not the right fit for you. And you may not want to offend anyone. But you're going to have a hard time extracting yourself from the relationship or a situation that does not serve you.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, one of the things I think when you get involved in especially if it's philanthropy work, and you've, you've said, hey, I'll do this, you don't want to let other people down, right. And so, you know, they're always looking for people that are going to do something to, to help raise money or to help put on an event or to do whatever, and you have the best intentions. And then you really realize sometimes how much time it's going to take, or you don't have the right connection with the bank loan. And so it does become a challenge. And that's brings me to the qualities of these six essential villages, and which you said was to be a communicator, one of them is, in each one of those chapters, takes those six and talks about it. But you speak about the signs of a consciously compassionate communicator. There's a there's a big difference between somebody who communicates and somebody who communicates consciously and compassionately. What are the signs and how do you know what type of communicator we are? Or they are, who they are.

Greg Voisen
It's looking at people's skill set to understand that everyone brings something different to the table. And the difference between being a communicator and a consciously compassionate communicator. When you are conscious of something again, hopefully, you're being more intentional. And also mean you're saying things that you mean that you're not saying? I mean, perhaps you know, it's all about the delivery and life and I think that's also part of being consciously compassionate as a communicator, because we could say, being consciously compassionate is something that you could apply to your life outside of being a communicator, but as a communicator, we could drill it down into some subcategories. And these again, are skill sets people have You are a writer, you know, the writer of the group, the speaker, the listener, the peacemaker, or the leader, these are different ways you can be a communicator, and let me give a little bit of color to that, as the writer, maybe you're the one in the community that is always sending out the emails about who needs, what's the people, or what's happening in the community, some of these people are suffering, you know, how can we gather people to support such and such, that's a great opportunity for someone who has a skill set of as the writer, and then there's, you know, the leader, I know, in my own community, oh, my gosh, there was always this one woman, she was at the forefront of everything, if anyone needed anything, she was the one making it happen, you know, whether or not it was someone passed away, and she was organizing the music for the funeral mass, or the funeral celebration, or whatever it might be, to being the person that was there showing up at someone's door when their house flooded, you know, to help them, you know, mop it up, I mean, and she was really the leader. And so I have found this in my life in so many different ways. But as we look at the communicator, these are all qualities a communicator can have, there can be others, of course, but it's about again, finding what people do well, not just you identifying it, identifying it in yourself and saying, This is how I can be helpful. This is how I can do something to make someone else feel seen, heard and understood.

Florence Ann Romano
Well look,

Greg Voisen
a compassionate communicator to as you said, she was the leader. But also, when I asked you the question, which one are you said, I'm all of them? And what I am, what I do know is that for a good community, there's a bit of all of those identifiers in all of us. It's the question is, which one of the strongest stat that we could come to this village with, and really add tremendous value to it. And one of the you mentioned the importance of a healer. And for my listeners, she means somebody who can compassionately listen, understand and help someone keel, what would be part of that and what makes a good healer in your relationship, and the estimation of their role to the village. In other words, here's this healer, hey, we've looked about look at Think about this. In every Native American and the South African tribes. There are always healers. There's the shaman. Right, right. And the shaman and there's people out there today, who are going down to do ayahuasca and saying, okay, I'm going to do as well, it's good. I have to have the shaman, right? Because I trust this person with my body, right? They're gonna they're gonna do right. What is it? What do you think in these villages inside the kind of villages I think you're trying to create. You're obviously not trying to create the ones where the healers come and do Ayahuasca but

Greg Voisen
that's one that could absolutely be one, too. I don't discriminate anytime. Good.

Greg Voisen
So talk with us about the healer, what role am I? Are you going to play as a healer?

Greg Voisen
Well, to go back for one quick second to talking about those six and how I do identify with all six. It doesn't mean I'm that person all the time to everybody. Right? That's an important thing to recognize is that there are different times in my life that I'm going to be more than maybe all of them or less, but also to looking at it and saying, Why do I choose the friends that I do you maybe you're going to need those certain types of villagers in your life during a certain period of your life, and you may not always need them. Let's talk about the healer, for example, you may not always need the healer in your life at a given time. But for me, it's not that this person is fixing you. It's not that they're there to even fix the problem. They are walking next to you in it. And my best friend and I always say to each other, you know, I can't fix it. I can't make it go away. I wish I could take away your pain or your hurt or whatever it is. But I do promise you that you're not alone that I am next to you. I'm with you. That's one of the things I always say on Instagram to whenever I talk or DM with anyone at the end. I always say with you that's kind of my way of kind of signing off a conversation, because that's what this is about. And the healer is that it's just someone that makes you feel like you're not alone in it. And to use an example of this was my best friend when her sister unfortunately passed away from thyroid cancer. Very young. She's only in her early 40s left behind two young daughters and I felt completely helpless on how to be there for her how Do you help, you know, your best friend go through this move through this grief. And at one time I was sitting, I was at her house and her mom was there on the kids and her children and her nieces, everyone was playing. And she and I were sitting on the couch together. And she just grabbed my hand. And we just kind of held hands watching the kids playing. Her mom took me aside later. And I said, I don't know what to do for her. I don't know what to do for you guys. And she said, I watched you too on the couch. And that moment, she was just sitting next to you holding your hand. And I could see that there was just a little bit of relief that kind of came over her in that moment she was that's all I need you to do. Just continue just to sit next to her be next to her. It didn't even take any words, it didn't take me trying to fix the situation, telling her it will be better. All of those things. I've often told her, it's not okay that it happened. It doesn't ever have to be okay, that it happened. And grief is whatever it's going to be however long it takes you to get through it. But in in my life with her in that moment. For those various months or even couple of years, I played the role of healer in that specific way in her life. And she has done the same for me in my life to when I've gone through different versions of grief that maybe we're not related to actually losing a person, a person who's died, but grief in all its forms.

Greg Voisen
Well, you bring up an important point. And I heard this once said, this is a compliment to your book. And the way you wrote it there. It's been said to me by a wise sage, that when you write a book, write a book as if you're speaking to your best friend, and you're in the movie theater whispering in their ear, I think. And I think what's important is that you're not telling people. Now you're just hey, we saw something really cool on the screen and you go, Hey, flights, and wasn't that really neat, right? You know, you're trying to share your excitement for your topic, right. And that's what I get throughout this book is your excitement for the topic of creating villages. And with that, let's ask a question about how we can actively practice compassion in the village, you tell a story about a boy that you observed near a local coffee shop. Now, knowing that you have a 35 year old brother who's autistic, I get it. And I used to raise money for a nonprofit called Terry, we had 625 autistic kids, and Down Syndrome kids. And I used to go in those doors every day. And the autistic kids and the Down Syndrome, kids would always come up to me and like pull on my pant leg. And they want to say hi or they'd want to give me a hug. And they're just so vulnerable, right? They're just always kind of open. And some of the artistic kids are quite a challenge. And I will say a lot a big challenge, right? But I saw you telling this story, as almost if I was sitting in that movie theater, and you're whispering in my ear, can you tell the story at what point you wanted to emphasize by the example of your actions. As a result of that story?

Greg Voisen
I was outside of coffee shop and I saw this boy, that, you know, when you grow up with a special needs brother, I think you're more sensitive to seeing around you perhaps people that are differently abled, whatever it might be. And so he was nervous about going into the coffee shop, I could see him talking to himself and trying to kind of pump himself up to go inside, if it's something was making him nervous. And so I noticed that there was a dog right by the door. And I was like, ah, that that's it. That's why he doesn't want to go in. He's scared of the dog. And he was trying to kind of self soothe and get himself up to the challenge of doing something that you know, had to be a little bit brave. And I was worried though, because he was agitated how he was going to be able to conduct himself when he got into that crowded Starbucks. And so I got nervous and got out of my car I was I actually just gotten into my car to leave. But I said okay, I just don't want him to be alone in there. He eventually saw that there was a side door and went inside, was able to avoid the dog but so I went in and I stood in line behind him and I could tell that he was kind of calming down he ordered his drink and you know, I ended up getting I think just a bottle of water because I forgot why I was even in there. I was like, oh, I'll just take water. I'm fine. You know, thank you. And I'm you know, waiting, you know, just kind of near him and he was he did just fine and nothing ended up happening. And he left And I love to but it the reason why this was an important moment for me was I thought to myself, gosh, if it were my brother, or it was someone I loved and someone was witnessing that this may be a challenging situation this may be interpreted incorrectly by people, I've seen people be cruel. I've seen people be unkind and not compassionate and, and have a hard time understanding why someone is behaving the way they are thinking that that person is just a rude person, or mean or whatever it might be. And so in that moment, I was ready to be the advocate for that boy, I was ready to be that mini village, maybe if he needed it. And I just not that I, I did the right thing in that moment, I don't know that I did. All I know is I hope that in life, we can observe around us a little bit more sensitively with a bit more empathy with a bit more compassion. And with a bit more gumption, perhaps to know that, you know, we don't have to do anything that is, you know, draws any attention, or is this big hero moment. It's those small things, those small moments of kindness or recognition, or selflessness that lead us to just creating that empathy effect, that ripple effect. And that boy taught me a lot in that moment about just being more aware of what's going on around me and how I can be helpful.

Greg Voisen
It was a great story. And it is heroic in nature, I mean, you must admit for you to get out of your car, take the extra time, go into the start bucks, you had compassion for this individual you saw through the scene, the picture, and you wanted to make certain they were safe. So in one small way, it was like, you know, I'm going to take this extra step to help somebody be safe. And we can't discount that, because there's an opportunity for everybody listening to help somebody feel safe every day, right, where they may be feeling uncomfortable about a certain circumstance or event or are something that happened in their life. And so that opportunity arises. And the only way you can take it Vantage meaning because it's a two way street of it is to be aware, right, you have to have a high level of awareness about what's going on around you. And we believe me, the person who's providing the compassion to the other person gets his bigger gift as the person who's in need of the compassion. And I think that's a really important thing to remember. And Florence, the book that you have written, it's failed. And let me hold it back up for everybody. Again, they're built your village, there it is. It's filled with wonderful instruction on creating a village, and the importance of doing so what are three actionable items that you'd like to leave listeners with, and they can utilize in forming their own villages.

Greg Voisen
I'm going to do a kind of a smorgasbord of things. One of my favorite sayings is my Angelou people forget what you said what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. And I think that's really the essence of this book. It is talking about putting yourself and your feelings in the spotlight. And then also how can you put other people's needs and their wants and desires? And how can you be helpful in the spotlight as well. Number two, give yourself a lot of grace with this process. It is not easy, what I'm asking you to do. A lot of it sounds simple. But maybe you're going to take your time and really work on one specific chapter, maybe what you really want to concentrate on. And what you're interested in learning more about is how you can hone your skills of being a healer more, and that's where you're going to put your time and attention. And number three, understanding that this is a book that you can go back to time and time again, as you go through different areas, situations transitions in your life, you can continue to whip out this book and say, Alright, I'm feeling a little lost. I'm feeling a little lonely, I'm feeling a little misunderstood. I'm feeling a little whatever that fill in the blank is. And you can continue to work this book in that way to help you figure out all those different milestones that you want to reach or as you get older and it becomes more and more difficult for you to create those relationships. You have a place you have a NorthStar you have somewhere to be able to go that you know you can work the steps and you can actually find the

Florence Ann Romano
solutions. Well, for all my listeners,

Greg Voisen
Lauren San Romano has written a great book, build your village and then encourage you to go out there, go to our website at Florence and.com. Reach out to her send her an email, you can do it through the website, let her know you're there and you're building a village. And that you might need her help, you might need some advice. But this is a great book for anybody really nonprofit people. This would be a big, big book for them, right? Because there's so many great tips in it that you give people and I think, your prior experience as a nanny for 10 plus years, and really understanding that world and what it takes an understanding, you know, when you think about you wrote about isolation, you know, it's the parents feeling and I think you wrote someplace in the book was right in the beginning about sometimes the mother is feeling so bad because she's leaving the child with you, right? And how upset they are because they've got to go to work. And they're missing this part of the child's life. Right, then being a toddler, and not being able to be there for those moments that you 10 years had with so many other people's children. What a blessing that was for you. Because I know it was you know, you had some problems with the kind of conceiving that kind of thing. So I really want to honor you for this. I want to thank you for writing a great book for all of our listeners to go out again. Go to Florence and.com. Go to Amazon and buy a copy of the book. Thank you for being on compassionate, loving, kind soul that you are not mistake to you. Thanks so much.

Greg Voisen
Reflecting that right back. Thank you

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Podcast 989: Miracle Soul Healer: Documenting a Legend with William Gladstone

My guest for this podcast is prolific author, literary agent, publisher, film maker and my good friend William Gladstone. He is the owner of Waterside Productions and the author of the new book Miracle Soul Healer: Documenting a Legend released last October 2022.

William is known for his philanthropic activities and commitment to helping authors publish books that contribute to the well-being of others and to our planet. His company Waterside Productions is among the oldest and largest literary agencies on the West Coast and has sold more than 3,000 books to the trade since it began operations in 1982. His personal clients in addition to Dr. and Master Sha include Eckhart Tolle, Neale Donald Walsch, Thom Hartmann, Jean Houston, and many others.

Adding to his amazing works is his new book entitled Miracle Soul Healer: Documenting a Legend. This book explores the ultimate mystery of how faith, science, and healing can change your life. As William spent weeks with Dr. Sha watching him at work, talking to his students, and observing his healings, this book also explores the results and methodology of Dr. Sha’s unique life journey and his stated life mission to serve humanity and the Divine and create a healthier and happier world.

If you want to know more about William and his works, you may click here to visit his website. You may also visit his company website by clicking this link.

I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with William Gladstone. Happy listening!

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.

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Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And for many of you, you don't know our guests. He's joining us from Cardiff, California. And his name is William Gladstone. And he owns Waterside Productions. And I've known Bill for many, many years. And it's a pleasure to have him on the show. I actually think this is the first time he's actually been a guest on Inside Personal Growth. So Bill, good day to you. How are you doing?

William Gladstone
I'm doing great. It is the first time I've been on your show. I think I've sent at least a dozen authors who have been on your show in the past. I and that's because I'm better known as a literary agent and publisher. But I'm also an author, though in the past, you know, my books have been novels like the 12 and books that wouldn't necessarily have fit for your show. But today, I'm delighted this book that I just rereleased doctrine, Master Sha, Miracle Soul Healer: Documenting a Legend is a perfect fit for your show. So that's why today's the first time you're going to have me on your show.

Greg Voisen
Well, and you have quite a history with Dr. Shay. It's Dr. and Dr. Shay Shaw, Shaw. I want to make sure I say it. Right. Yeah. And you know, the book was fascinating. As I was doing the review, I was reading some of the stories. And you know, you go back to being introduced to Dr. Shah. It's actually Dr. and Master Shaw is how it's referred through a friend of yours, Rick, freshman. You You met him in 2013? What kind of has your journey been like? Because, you know, it was like, Okay, let's publish this book. This guy had already been published and other places. He's got another book coming out. And you decided to take this project on. And it it seems like it was a real epiphany for you to work. Well.

William Gladstone
It was fun from the beginning. I have to say so, you know, back this is 10 years ago. Now. You know, we've been very successful. We represented the for Dummies series, made a ton of money. And then got into people like Neale Donald Walsch for special projects, Deepak Chopra, Marianne Williamson, so you know, and then we had a big success, of course with Eckhart Tolle. So you know, as an agency, we're kind of a big name. And Rick was a big time publicist in the book business, so he had, you know, represented the Chicken Soup for the Soul authors and some other very successful book authors. And he called me up out of the blue and said, Bill, I've got this author, and he's a New York Times bestselling author, and he wants an agent, well, as an agent who's gonna say no, you know, oh, sure. Let me talk to him. And so we set up the call. And for some reason, the call wasn't set up until like nine o'clock on a Friday night. And I'm in California. And I'm assuming that he's in California. Well, he was actually on the east coast. So this call went on for a couple of hours. And I'm thinking oh, so 11 o'clock, it's getting late, you know, you've been on the call a long time. And I find out it's two in the morning. And he's, he was as coherent. And as fun I have to say, Dr. Master shot is a unique individual, he has very high energy, obviously, he has an incredible task of training as both a medical doctor at China's best western medicine university, but then he also from the age of six, was motivated to learn tai chi, chi, Gong, herbal medicine, acupuncture, all the traditional Chinese modalities for healing. And on top of all that, he's a very intelligent individual who understands business. So the first two hours that I spent with him on the phone, we were talking about his contracts. I was, you know, we don't take people on. I mean, I'm not we've made enough money that, yes, you know, we don't ignore it. But it's not our primary motivation. Our primary motivation is helping authors and publishers because we represent publishers as well create and distribute books that are going to create a better world. So Dr. Shah fit that. But at the same time, if I don't think I can add value, I'm not going to take someone on. And I was very hesitant because it was a master shot. I looked at the contract had Rick had sent it over that he had with Simon and Schuster said, You have a great contract, you have great success. Why do you even need an agent? I you know, you already have great deals, and you said, Well, I did some research, and you did the dummies series. And that's really what I want. I want a series of books. And I want to sell hundreds of millions of books like you did with the dummies not just hundreds of 1000s of books and said well, I can't guarantee that level of success. But you know, I can actually get you better deal there's there's new things happening in publishing, we can do a profit share deal with someone. You're doing all of the marketing anyway. So yeah, I'll take you on. And that started the relationship. And I had already done and the first deal for him on his first book, which, to my amazement, he wrote from start to finish in less than a month, and it was a big book, Miracle soul healer. And I ended up selling it to BenBella, which was an up and coming publisher, and we got a great deal. And then he was giving a healing conference of some kind in Solimar, California, which is not too far from Cardiff, I can't remember exactly, it's up the coast. But I have other clients. So I always, you know, make a trip every few months up the coast. So I said, okay, let's meet. So I drive up. And I'm with my wife, Gail. And I'm in Salem, Oregon, I'm looking around, and I see this Chinese man in a suit, and sitting on a bench. And I said, I bet that's Dr shot. But anyway, so we have to go to our hotel and check in and all like that. And then he was the the person. And we had arranged to meet at the Chinese restaurant nearby in the town near there. And we went to dinner. And we had about an hour and a half before this event that he wanted to have us participated mainly, you know, just observe what he was doing. And I was struck by the fact that he's such a humble guy. I mean, well, this was not a fancy Chinese restaurant, you know, as normal sort of every day, kind of, and he was just a normal everyday guy. And this is interesting. So then we go to the event. And now it's, you know, nine o'clock at night, at least maybe even 10. And this room is full, it's probably close to 1000 people, I don't know, 600, at least, I don't know the size of it, but it's full. And they're all there. And they're like, totally riveted to every word he's saying. And he takes up this blackboard and he starts teaching. He's teaching about the nature of energy, and the nature of healing. And there's all diagrams and it's like, I'm, I'm back at college, I mean, this is teaching. And then about an hour into it after the teaching, he brings out an individual who they have identified as having had very severe cancer. And they've been able to reduce the cancer from, you know, significant size to a very small size. And they haven't they're to continue to do the work. So they actually master shot does his at this time he was using mostly chanting, it was he never touched the individual. And he actually was having the people who were all student healers, which I didn't understand when I first went there. And they, he was teaching them how to do what he does. And that's what really got me interested, because I've done books about John of God, and I've done books about other miracle. So one that sold miracle healers, but I'd never met anyone who not only was able to heal, but was able to teach others how to heal. So this really intrigued me. And I should share with your audience. I have a background as a scientist, I had an article published as an undergraduate in the Yale scientific when I was a student at Yale. And then I went to Harvard University where I studied medical anthropology. So I had a background in this, which is one of the reasons I was so intrigued. And I know about the placebo. And that is, you know, always a factor in healing. In fact, the strongest correlate cross culturally in all studies and of anthropology is that the leading indicator of success is belief in the practitioner, no matter what modality even with Western medicine, if you don't believe you have a much less chance of success of he'll appeal. So I thought maybe this is just that and but then, you know, we after the success of the first book, master shot was not totally satisfied with the results. We sold three 400,000 copies I was satisfied for that was great. But you know, we still hadn't gotten to our million copy book, and it was actually the publisher of BenBella. Glen. Yes, he's a good friend of mine who said, well, you know, you should do something like your dummies books you should do like Dr. and Master shot for dummies. And of course, we couldn't do that because Wiley owns the for dummies. trademark. They said, okay, well, I could do it, you know, because i Right very quickly. And you know, I enjoy writing. So I said, I'll write I'll write a book about Dr. Master Sham. That's that was the first edition of miracle soul healer. And my goal in this book, is really to introduce people who have no background in healing, no background in spirituality, no background in Chinese

Greg Voisen
techniques. Yeah,

William Gladstone
medicine. Who is this doctrine master shot? How has he achieved what he's achieved? What has he achieved? Is there true scientific evidence that these are real? Are they replicable? And then, after I had written the first draft of the manuscript and did share it with Dr. Master shove, be sure I had everything correct, because there's a lot of individual information about his family. And I wanted to be sure I had everything correct. He said, I liked your book, but it's missing a whole part. So what's that, you have to talk about my master teachers and students that are also healing. So we added another section to the book. And you know, there's about a dozen of his top teachers who I also profile, including their successes, and that's where I really, at that time was completely dumbfounded. Because how can you possibly teach someone to do this kind of healings, because as far as I had been able to determine, it really was based on Dr. Sean's own connection to what he calls the source for the Dow. Right, his ability to sort of bring in and this may sound

Greg Voisen
strange just named Bill doesn't he call it the dung Yi Gong. Unbelievable power I, you know, speak with the listeners about that. He used this process to heal people. Yes. I may be saying this wrong.

William Gladstone
No, no, but yeah. And just so you know, I'm going to talk in plain English, I don't use any of his Chinese language, because

William Gladstone
the book has all the Chinese words, and it has even the pronunciation. I don't know why I'm not dyslexic. But even when I see oh, you pronounced like this, I pronounced it incorrectly. So same things that any Chinese listener would say these guys are idiots. I just use English equivalents. So what I've learned about that, I mean, it's, I mean, it's, I do want and can't pronounce, apparently, Chi is energy. Yeah, she in the Chinese system, is responsible for everything, the movement of energy, everything related to health. And Dr. Schatz system, she is controlled by the, by the heart, that heart can send energy to the cheetah, which is the body, and that can heal, but you have to go to what he calls the soul. So I don't know what the word is being used in Chinese. But I mean, I do know the word but it can't pronounce it properly, but it's the soul. So you go to the soul, the soul moves the heart, the heart moves, the Chi, the matter. Because it is you have to get down to the level of matter. We're all matter. We live at the level of matter, right. But then what I've learned, and I didn't know this, at the time, I wrote the first edition, this is one of the reasons I rewrote the book, and added a lot of material, I have a much better understanding now of the methods, because each one of us has what he calls soul energy. But then there's the ultimate soul energy, which is the soul energy with the Dow. And so that's why if I had rewritten this book today, and didn't want to use, you know, I would have had to totally, totally rewrite it, I would have changed the title. And I may do a third edition five years from now I want to understand even more, and I would have I would call it Dow miracle soul healer, because it's really about accessing the Dow. And I now understand from Master shops that when he's accessing the Dow, the Dow is, I mean, I now co-host an entire show an hour every week, just going through the what they call the Dao De Jing, which is the original explanation of the DAO, written by Lao Tzu more than 2600 years ago. And and the very first chapter that Lao Tzu says the DAO cannot be seen, cannot be heard, cannot be touched, and cannot be understood by human beings. But, and it's not even called the Dow. But we're going to use the word Dow. And we're going to give as much information as we can. So human beings can benefit from understanding the source, the source of all and it's an eternal source that always has existed

Greg Voisen
before he calls it universal law and universal science, right? Yes, that's what that's what you refer to it. You know, he had this divine encounter and your interview with him about the divine encounter and what you learned about what he refers to as universal law universal service.

William Gladstone
Yes. Well, that that is actually underneath the Dow because the Dow created heaven and earth, the Dow created the gods, actually. So when he's talking to God, he's talking to let me just finish that and then we'll get back into this. But before there was the big bang, there was the dowel after the contraction because many sciences thinks the entire universe you know, expands and then contraction and we'll come back to you know, can't even describe it. It will be so small, and you know, virtually from our experience at the level of reality, we live, disappear, and then the whole thing will start over again. But the Dow itself is immune to all of that the Dow is before creation before the Big Bang after the Big Bang. It's truly eternal. And everything that we can imagine sense or possibly experience is derived from the source from the GAO itself. So it's a fairly common flex concept. Science cannot prove it, because it's at a level and in a dimension ality that is beyond science. But there's nothing in our science, including, you know, many new findings about non local quantum entanglement, everything that's been discovered in the last 50 years that supports this type of theory, and many of my other authors, including Deepak Chopra, who has written extensively on the subject that we don't really exist. Now, of course, we exist. But we exist almost in the way that a video game exists, where we are not really the creators of our hologram.

William Gladstone
Anyway, so it can I think the word The

Greg Voisen
Dow is a way for people to look at. I'm gonna say this, because I think you and I have been in this community for a long time. And I've done I'm just about close to 1000 interviews now with people on spirituality, and these kinds of things. And sometimes it's a bit amorphous. So you have to kind of put your hands around a word or something to try and explain this and I get what you're trying to explain is challenging you do a great job in the book it in and that's I'm going to encourage my listeners, go get a copy of the book, it's up on Amazon, check out waterside productions as well, if you've got an interest in learning more about Bailey puts out a weekly or monthly newsletter as well about all of his new authors. But you know, this is soul healing. You've said this a couple of times so I want to go back to this soul healing.

William Gladstone
And now we're ready for that. I just wanted to get the broader Okay, next what you know at the time I wrote the book, but you're absolutely right. It

Greg Voisen
comes down to he comes down to in the book are you did? Yeah. From all these practices, chi gong, tai chi, acupressure, acupuncture, yoga, all these healing practices are considered energy medicine, right? Yes. Everybody out there listening in my audience is they get energy medicine. We've all done it. Speak with us about what you and Dr. Shaw or in more importantly, what Dr. Shaw says energy medicine is to heal the soul.

William Gladstone
Okay, so you start in masters Shas system of belief. Everything has a soul. Every individual molecule has a soul, every individual human being has, you know, I don't know if there's a trillion atoms, whatever he is in each of us, but each one of those atoms has a soul. And the soul of that atom controls the destiny of that atom. So what Dr. Shah focuses on is connecting to the soul of the area that is symptomatic. So if you're suffering from I mean, his most recent book was just dealing with back pain. So if you're suffering from back pain, he now and this is we'll get into this the

Greg Voisen
the colon polyp that you're dealing with, well,

William Gladstone
I'm working, I'm working with master shot on that, okay, special calligraphy I could even go get. And I trace it now he's put all of his energy and he didn't do this when I first met him. This is something he's evolved over the last 10 years, he has found a way to take his healing energy and put it he goes into what I would call a semi trance where he's connecting with a different dimension of realities. And that dimension of reality brings in the healing energy, and he puts it into the calligraphy and then he has the individual patient, trace the calligraphy you can either do it with your hand, you can actually the most effective ways. It's almost like you do a dance where you're coming from your core and you're tracing the calligraphy if you're unable to move because you're in a severe medical situation. You can just also do it with your eyes you can trace it with your eyes. And by doing this, you are recreating the energetic connection that he is able to create with the dowel within Okay, so I That is the basis now of the majority of his healings. Now he has other modalities. Also, he has doubts on so in addition to giving me this wonderful calligraphy, he created a seven minute chat. And he says, just play the chat, play it, you know, even when you're sleeping, it's going to be working. So and he doesn't ever promise, you know, because every individual in his belief system has a fate that is linked to that individual's karma. He believes all of us.

Greg Voisen
So the karma cleansing is the, you know, go to that, you know, how does it work? Well, because we're looking at karma is all of the things that happened to us through the course of all the various reincarnations are bringing, well,

William Gladstone
it's even more complicated than that, because it's not just your karma. It's the karma of your ancestors of your family, because you have the same DNA, so that DNA has responsibility at the cosmic level. So you may have had impeccable past lives. You. And you know, frankly, in the beginning, I not a believer in reincarnation. So I was a little skeptical, but everybody's got their own sort of way. And as long as it works, you know, maybe this is correct, I'm now leaning more, there probably is something to this, but I think it's even more complex. And Dr. Shah is stating, because there is a level on which there's sort of the Divine Law of Balance, you can call it a Karma law. And I do believe in that I've seen it, you know, in small ways, but I think, you know, what he's referring to is, there's a much larger way, sort of the yin and the yang, there, everything's going to be balanced in the end. And so maybe it is true that you've led an impeccable life, and you've led a good life, in your past lives, but you come from a family that's taken advantage of others done some terrible things, you're gonna have to pay for the sins of the father, we can call it. So no one is immune to having negative things happen to them, no matter how good a human being you may be. So when that happens, Dr. Shah believes you have to clean up the karma, whether it's your own personal karma, or the karma of your ancestors. So that's his first point of attack. And he has ways of helping you do that. And one thing Dr. Shah will always say is, you know, I am just a servant, and I am not in charge, you have the ability to heal yourself. I give you these tools, use them. And I hope they're going to work for you. But Dr. Shah and I have discussed there are situations where he has, because he does have a connection to the divine. And you know, he just goes in, and if somebody comes to him with a illness that he doesn't feel he can he'll tell them, No, I can't, I can't help you. So it's not 100%. In my observations and studies of him, he rarely says no, it's less than one to 2% of the time that he'll say, this is something I can't help with. But when he says he can help, he doesn't guarantee says, it's really going to be dependent upon the karma of the individual. I can give them the tools. And if, you know, they're open to it, in most cases, and I've recorded personally investigated hundreds of cases, and I've seen 1000s of cases of miraculous healings. I mean, people with severe cancers, people with spontaneous

Greg Voisen
remission is it's been around for some time. This thick written on spontaneous remission occurs, but

William Gladstone
yeah, but spontaneous remission. does not explain how you can have 1000s of spontaneous remissions.

Greg Voisen
No, no, I get that. What I'm saying though, is, you know, also to, to get to this, you know, when you were kind of kicking the tires around this, because you're not saying you have skeptic skepticism. I was skeptical. No, but I was skeptical, you know, and then you went to this ruling Zhu Zi, Xiu, I don't know how to pronounce the last name. Yes. Is that introduced me to this ruling? Zoo? Yeah. Okay. Speak with us about the meeting with her and what you learned about Seoul? Because she evidently, was another resource for you to actually back up. What?

William Gladstone
Well, that's what I was saying about the science and she, she's from China, but she was educated at Berkeley, which is one of the best universities in the United States. And she's a PhD candidate, and then got her PhD. With the hope of uncovering the unified field theory, that is sort of the ultimate goal of a physicist, and you know, you've had 1000s of physicists over the last. Ever since Einstein presented the unified field as a concept. Try I'd like to derive the underlying reality of the unified field and explain it, and no one's been successful. So Ruhlin was so frustrated for a time she gave up. And then she met Master Sha, unrelated to her core interest in science, and was trained and became a healer herself. And then she realized that what Master Shah was doing, explained the true nature of the unified field, and went back and worked with master shot to develop what she calls the science. And so there are now other scientists who are looking at the formulations that Ruhlin and master Shah have created together, they even came up with an equation to explain it all. And it's fascinating, and it does support from a scientific perspective. This is why people like Deepak Chopra, have jumped on the bandwagon and attended special events that we've held with both Dr. Ruhlin and master Shah, trying to understand how this healing really works. Because for me, there has it's wonderful. And it isn't enough if you're in need just to go without understanding the science of it. But my father was a chemist, he studied with Yuri, who won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry. So I was raised, where you really had to have a scientific method if you're going to accept something. And so I've been pushing for that. And I think there's a lot of people who feel similarly, the results are great, but how does it work? Why do I

Greg Voisen
think many listeners like you have the background? They say, evidence based, right? You know, I just did a big project with Mayo Clinic. I'm now working with Dr. Richie Davidson, the guy that's worked with Dalai Lama for the last 30 years, who has now an app out, right, so Dalai Lama says to don't study anxiety, and depression, study compassion, and whatever. he dedicates his whole life to this now he's back in Wisconsin two weeks ago, with the whole team. The point was, is it you know, he puts all the electrodes on the head, and they do the studies, and they say, you know, neurologically, this is exactly what's happening under stress. This is what's going on. Right. So, you know, he is saying he has the biggest evidence based pool of data that actually warrants mindfulness meditation practices, right, which we're doing so is that oh, no, but and then I have someone else on the other end of the spectrum bill that says, hey, but what's what your, your, that's this, there's a symptom that's causing that stress? Are you treating that? Or are you just take doing the meditation and mindfulness practices? And that would be like, hey, adverse childhood experiences, the ACE studies that many doctors here at Kaiser have been working on with people and so on. And you know, you say you look at this community around you your science, science and evidence base. And I think for a lot of people, it's, it's very important, whether they're on my show, or they're not, or they're, or they're just out there listening to this podcast, they kind of want proof.

William Gladstone
Well, that's exactly where I'm headed as well. So master shot in addition to working with, he attracts very bright, intelligent, dedicated people. So one of his master teachers is a man, Dr. Peter Doba, who is a neuroscientist, very highly regarded. And forget which university in Canada, but one of the best. And anyway, he has teamed up with Dr. Master shop, and they've done studies and medical studies that with hundreds of patients, evidence based studies showing the effectiveness. So that was part of my research. And, and this has been ongoing. Is

Greg Voisen
that in the is, is that kind of something that's coming up in the next series of the book? Yes,

William Gladstone
absolutely. Yeah. Because you're I'm waiting for the final because as you know, with science, Oh, okay. Now we have this study, now you have to replicate it. I mean, you know, they're doing as thorough research as was done well, more thorough, frankly, in my opinion, you know, for the COVID vaccines where

Greg Voisen
everybody was, yeah, no, I know that. You mean, I got the whole controversial stuff around that. But here, look, your daughter had cancer.

William Gladstone
Yeah, my stepdaughter. But yeah, and this is totally, totally documented, and we could get her on the show as well. So she was diagnosed with breast cancer with stage which is pretty serious. They said, You're gonna have to have an operation, we're gonna have to remove the breast. And, you know, there's no guarantee we'd get there in time. You know, you could still have cancer after that happens and many women die from this. So this was all scheduled. We found out this was when Master Shah was just starting to use the calligraphies. I, probably about eight years ago, it was after I'd written the first edition, but of the book, but so you know, we called and because of our relationship, he sent her a calligraphy. And he sent her a chance. And she played it religiously, and she traced. And I think she died all of that about a month before her operation. And when they went into operate on her, they said, this is kind of strange, we can't find the cancer, but we know it was there a month ago. And we're gonna still go ahead with the operation, because we don't want to take the chance that we're just not finding it. So they did operate on her anyway. But the good news is, the cancer has never returned. There is no cancer right now. And this is eight years. So this is this was quite, I mean, miraculous. I had some small things that had given me sort of eye opener, maybe this really does work when I was skeptical. I play a lot of golf. And I had a big tournament coming up. And I had golfer's elbow, Greg, I think is a golfer, your and other golfers will know, you can't really play when your elbow was inflamed. And I was, you know, thinking I wasn't going to play in the tournament, I casually mentioned to master Shah, you know, I had this little condition because I had a meeting with him just like two days before the tournament. And so that's nothing here. And he immediately drew a little diagram calligraphy, actually on the in a book that we didn't even have paper with us. And he drew it in a book. And he said here, you just, you know, at that time, it wasn't he didn't even have the technique, Trey said, you just hold this book, this image that I just created on your on the arm, you know, five minutes tonight, five minutes in the morning, in two days, you'll have no problem. And he was right. And I played in the tournament, I actually won the tournament. So that was like, okay, this is just good luck. I mean, I mean, doesn't prove anything was very important to me. But you know, we intact,

Greg Voisen
like you said something earlier, right at the beginning of this. And I think for my listeners, you had this amazing trust in what Dr. Shaw said, well, in other words, we know that and MIT and all the places that have studied, you know, healing. Look, it's I'm trying to think of the book, it wasn't that long ago, but where people come back again and again for things that they basically don't take care of in their life. Right. They're not good patients. In your case, you had this amazing belief in him. And I think that's a, you know, you're talking about Norman Vincent Peale. I used to ride around and listen to cassette tapes that he did for years in the car, right. And he was so inspiring to me, I say that many times. He helped me he's out of depression 1000s of times.

William Gladstone
Right, I agree with you. And that is a strong component. And obviously, if you have trust, and you have belief, that's going to increase significantly the success you're gonna have, but let me give you another story. That kind of shows. You don't even need that. In the case of Dr. Master shots. My biological daughter, Tara was getting married. And we really made a big deal out of it. We rented an island off of Cata case in Spain, you know, hundreds of 1000s of dollars being spent. And two weeks before the wedding. She had fallen or hurt her ankle foot area. And she was in a boot. She couldn't walk. She went to the medical doctors, they said, Oh, we're so sorry. But there's no way you're going to be able to walk down the aisle. You know, this is going to take months to heal. It's not going to heal in two weeks. So well, I've got so much on the line I call up Dr. Nestor shy said, Is there anything you can do to help us at all I'll do a calligraphy I can't guarantee results, but I'll send it and we'll see what happens. So she gets the calligraphy three days before the wedding starts tracing and she is totally skeptical, but she's desperate. It's like she's got nothing else, you know, available, so she does it. Miraculously she's able to walk and this is not a normal aisle. This is like a quarter of a mile because we're on that island. It's a dirt path. And she loves to dance. Not only was she able to walk down the aisle she danced to four in the morning wedding went on quite a while. She did several weeks later have to have some more treatment to because there was a break or fracture and it didn't totally heal it but it heals it enough, even without her believing, necessarily in doctrine master shots and so that got my attention. Because well,

Greg Voisen
you know, obviously you are a believer in your shop. And I think my listeners understand by now that if they're looking for alternatives, you know, this is a good book to look to, it's a good introduction book, it's a good way to get exposed to this, it's a good way for you to explore alternatives to healing in your whole life right now. And that's what I was going to ask here and kind of wrapping up things. You know, you fill this book with stories about Dr. Master Shaw. So healings, what would you like the listeners to know about how they can access because, you know, he's about teaching other people how to use what he knows he

William Gladstone
has a wonderful group of people that are now you know, implementing his techniques. Okay, it's very hard at this time to have a one on one session with Dr. Master shot, he does blessings. He's evolved. He's now blessing water. So he has data water. And once a week, you can go online, and you know, have a session. It's a group session, of course, and He blesses water. And there's hundreds of reports of people just from this water blessing than drinking the water. And there's a technique, he's very much about gratitude, in everything that he does. He's always giving gratitude, to the doubt to the source to what others might call their god or whatever their, you know, sense of creation is. And Dr. Shah explains is, I can heal myself, you can heal yourself together, we can heal the world. And he really feels that everyone's obligation is to heal themselves, whenever possible, because when you heal yourself, you're raising the vibration of not only yourself, but of the planet. And we're all connected, interconnected. And this is what quantum physics is showing us. And it's by raising the health and the vibration of the planet, that we are really able to heal ourselves. And healing ourselves is the first step. And then you can learn to heal others, you can use these techniques. And if you want to follow this, and some people, you know, can create a career out of it or a sideline, He'll teach you how to do that. There's many, many classes and all this is available, where would

Greg Voisen
our listeners go to know what's in your book?

William Gladstone
Yeah, I think it's just WW. Dr. sean.com. I'm not good. With all the technical

Greg Voisen
info, here's what I'll do, I will put a link in the blog for my listeners, they can go to Dr. Shaw's website, I will also put a link to the waterside production so people can go

William Gladstone
one of the things that actually I'm going to recommend right here on the show is I'll connect you with Dr. Masters, I'm sure he would love to be on your show. And what he does, when he's on shows, in addition to answering your questions, they'll do a blessing for all of your listeners, he'll actually do a blessing that can have significant healing impact. And one of the things about Master shots is he doesn't limit it just to physical, mental, emotional, and even things related to career finances, marriage relationships, his techniques work with all areas of life. So you know, it's really a blessing to have,

Greg Voisen
I'm sure he said impacts on millions of lives, whether he knows it or not. The reality is, is that, you know, there's pain, I want to say it, these people that have come on the planet to do this kind of work as sages and healers. And there's many of them. Obviously, we have many on the show. But I wanted to expose his work one because of you. I really respect you and the kind of authors that you've actually brought to the forefront over the years, and the things that you've done. And I really think that this is great for our listeners. So for everybody out there listening, we're going to put a link to Dr. Shaw's website. And we're also going to put a link to waterslides website. And Bill if the listeners want to get the book. I know it's on Amazon. So we'll put a link to Amazon as well to pick up the book there. And if anybody has any questions about this, say probably go to the Dr. Shah website and type in email in and do a contact and we will get Dr. Shah on the show to actually speak with our listeners and do a blessing and a healing that bill is speaking about here. That would be wonderful. And Bill seriously. Thank you for taking this time to talk with our listeners. about the book is called Dr. and Master Shaw miracle soul healer by William Gladstone. There you go. Pick up a copy. Do that today. And if you have any other questions or contacts contest to contact us here at inside personal grow namaste to you, Bill.

William Gladstone
Thank you so much really enjoyed the interview look forward to talking with you again and getting some more of our wonderful authors on your show.

Greg Voisen
All right take care. Thank you.

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Podcast 988: The Automatic Writing Experience (AWE): How to Turn Your Journaling into Channeling to Get Unstuck, Find Direction, and Live Your Greatest Life! with Michael Sandler

This podcast’s guest is podcast giant, visionary coach, spiritual mentor, life strategist and inspirational speaker Michael Sandler. He is also a best-selling author and one of his works which we’ll talk about is The Automatic Writing Experience (AWE): How to Turn Your Journaling into Channeling to Get Unstuck, Find Direction, and Live Your Greatest Life!.

Michael is also known as the cohost, along with his wife, of the popular show Inspire Nation – a transformational, self-help, spiritually focused podcast. True to his mission of elevating consciousness and helping the world to shine bright, he also cocreated the Automatic Writing Experience online course where in he has taught thousands of people worldwide already.

Aside from online course, The Automatic Writing Experience (AWE) has its book version released on February 2021. From then, it has gotten good reviews. As per Unity Magazine on its January/February 2022 issue, “Automatic writing can do more than merely help you tap into inner guidance. The practice can boost creativity, ignite intuition, and even trigger mystical experiences.” Well, it is true to its purpose as AWE is a revolutionary process to enter a meditative state, put pen to paper, and watch the words flow, you’ll have access to this incredible wisdom anytime you want.

If you want to know more about Michael and his works, you may click here to visit their website. You may also click here to visit their book website.

I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Michael Sandler. Thanks and happy listening!

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.

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Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of the podcast and joining me from New Jersey is Michael Sandler. And we're going to be speaking about his book called (AWE) The Automatic Writing Experience. Good day to you, Michael, how you doing?

Michael Sandler
Good day you Greg and I gotta call that off. Because we're gonna be talking about that sense of awe today, aren't we?

Greg Voisen
We are and we just saw rube which is his rooster.

Michael Sandler
Yeah, absolutely. Which drops jaws and has you?

Greg Voisen
Definitely. Well, I'm gonna let my listeners know a tad bit about you. Michael Sandler, he has an MBA, which is a master's in business administration and Mi s, what is MIS?

Michael Sandler
It's a Master of Information Systems. So a computer degree as well as a business because one wouldn't be enough.

Greg Voisen
All right, yeah, to have a second one. He's the host of Inspire Nation show. And you can actually go to inspirenationshow.com To learn more about him. You can also go to automaticwriting.com. That's another website. It's a top rated self-help and spiritual YouTube show and podcast. He's a bestselling author, speaker, visionary coach and creator of Inspire nation University, and all online course, for over 25 years, he's transformed 1000s of lives and businesses through the open hearted Warrior Program. Michael is on a mission to help the world shine bright. And again, I said two websites probably automatic writing.com would be a great place for my listeners. Here's the book. And what's what we're going to be talking about today. Well, Michael, thanks for taking the time. I know you've been at this a long time. And there's some things in your life personally, that happened that kind of got you here to where you are today. And I'm not talking about educational experiences I'm talking about oh, they are educational. Indie ease and for everybody who knows a near death experiences, how that influenced you and change your life for the better.

Michael Sandler
I like that you say change your life for the better because it certainly did. Well, you could say that that's more of your master's or graduate or PA Doctoral Program, or degree on life is the nd ease. They shifted me from for the most part because your wiring is still your wiring, we can get into that. But they shifted me from a what I'm going to call a small mind understanding of the world. The more egoic or fear based or day to day mind, call it small and they shifted me to the big mind more of a big picture unity consciousness, we are all one what's the big picture? Why are we hear what's the meaning of this existence, what is what is behind the veil, what's on the other side. And, and from that place, it doesn't mean that you reside there all the time, as my wife will tell you, you don't. However, you interact with the world completely differently. You see things differently, your heart is expanded and more open. It's why we have the open hearted warrior program, it's now transitioned into what we call the school of mystics because what you are when you have one of these mystical experiences, you don't need a near death experience to have one is you're someone who can live on both sides of the veil at the same time, meaning, let's put it in common everyday vernacular. You can escape from the matrix or you're not locked to the lower level vibration of fears and worries, and anxiousness and even depression, that is a global phenomenon or challenge today, instead, you can see or be above it at a higher vibration still working here on Earth, but not attached to all of the drudgery.

Greg Voisen
Totally agree, many authors and lots of people have talked about that as the non-duality. You know, the me, you mentioned a second the ego, you know, and then the soul. And you we have to kind of coexist with that don't mean, Michael, and what does it mean to live? As you just talked about on both sides of the veil? You know, I kind of look at it as that non dual universe. And, but the egos ever present it, it's there to protect us in some respect, right? It's there for us. How do you help people navigate those two worlds?

Michael Sandler
Let's, let's kick it real old school, Greg, let's go with depending on your take, it can either be Pac Man or miss Pac Man. So on the other side, I'm calling it quote unquote, other side of the veil, because actually, we're this holographic image within the veil, everything is within us, we are within everything. But just for lack of confusion or clarity sake, we'll say the other side of the veil. Most of you exist, your Higher Self, your soul, your spirit, on the other side of the veil, cheering on this little version of you that's locked into this PacMan universe is locked into this world. In this world, you have amnesia, you forget who you are, you forget where you come from, you forget your attachment, so that you can play out this program or this game. And you can learn and grow from it and take that information back home to the larger version of yourself. The egoic mind, in a small sense, helps you stay safe here, look both ways before you cross the road. There are some rules that came from the tribe that are very meaningful look at the world from a fear based perspective. So you don't get eaten by a tiger. Whenever we came here to actually learn how to let that go, in a sense, because I like to think of this world. And this, this duality is a cosmic pulse of AC DC if you want or negative, positive, negative positive, the current that you have alternating current that runs your computer right here is this flux and current back and forth, and back and forth, and back and forth. And you came here to have amnesia, and forget and learn how to transcend that and bring that home and come here again and forget and learn how to transcend that and bring that home. And it's this pulse ever spiraling you upward in your existence of eternity, because you're an infinite divine being having a divine experience in human form. Now, your ego while you're here, until you wake up, and that's what I call escaping from the matrix is waking up to the greater existence, your ego. He's very scared. And my ego is still very big, it hasn't gone anywhere, just because I've had a taste of the other side. It is wiring. And the wiring is I want to stay small, I don't want to be seen. I don't want to reach for greatness. And it will give me a litany of reasons why I should never do or change anything and I should just hide under the couch. What I get to do with that, though, is make peace with it. Greg is to love it up is to listen to it as to take it in as a wounded little child and say it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. And then and in hand, stepping forwards and knee way. Right not about eradicating the ego eradicating fear, you might be able to do that. I haven't heard of many, many success, but it's about healing those wounds and then stepping forward with your ego

Greg Voisen
coexisting with it. You know, that's a an important element and I think that is where everybody is there is no way out of it. It is what it is. And the key is what you've mentioned as a nurturing it, supporting it, understanding it and then you growing with it. You know in the special message of your book. Urban Ervin is Laszlo I know I've actually I don't want to screw up his name because he Laszlo. Laszlo says that you have the ability to connect to the source. How do you help people hear or feel this source and know how to rely on what the source is telling them? Because you know it's discernment. We get you know, some people are Clara audience, some are Clara sent A summer, you know, clairvoyant, there's a lot of Claire's. The question is, is, when we hear that or intuitive, we have that hit? How do you help people really realize that and then channel that in, because you're really about automatic writing. Okay,

Michael Sandler
so a couple of key words in there. So channel is one of those words. And tune in is, is an important concept here as well, which is to say, we all get these hits, Greg, we all get these moments of clarity turn now. And all of a sudden, thank God, that child had run out that bus that came there, we turned to just the right moment, we had a moment of clarity, or we have an intuitive hit, to make a certain decision to go for something that makes no sense. And we actually go for it, the universe source God, the love, that is everything, whatever we want to call it is always speaking to us. However, if we don't have a practice, where we can learn to trust this voice, learn to trust this wisdom. And as you say, you're an important word, learn to discern, then we're kind of clueless as to, is this my mind? Is this my ego? Or is this coming from someplace greater? Now, right? Automatic writing is a very simple process, where you go into kind of this meditative state, you don't have to be able to meditate, you get your pen on the paper, and the pen starts flowing to gives you answers to some of the biggest questions of the universe, and about yourself, which is where it becomes a mind blower. And it's an energetic transmission when you start to feel better and feel better. And this cloak of darkness and heaviness starts to slough away from you, the more time that you spend in ah, what I call the automatic writing experience, the easier it is to discern, the easier it is to feel, the easier it is to have knowings of where the information is coming from, to the point where the writing is no longer about the writing, Greg, right, you can go out you can go down the street, you can have a conversation with Greg, which is woohoo, thank you for having me here. And you're able to get a real true sense of what's coming from that small mind and what's coming from the bigger mind because of the time you spent practicing in it.

Greg Voisen
Well, I I've written a couple of books, and they just helped finish another one. And I know what it's like gratulations. Now this doesn't it. This isn't just writing to write a book, let's make that real clear. This is writing to heal, no matter what the writing is. Much of this writing is, I'm going to say being channeled through you to be expressed on a piece of paper. And the important part is you hearing the message and learning from that message. And William Sears MD says that Aw, he belongs in the mental wellness toolbox of every reader who is inspired to take charge of their brain health. That was the quote, why is the automatic writing experience so powerful? What can it do for our brain health?

Michael Sandler
It's interesting that he mentions that because if you go back into the 1800s, I believe was 1846 might have been a little later than that. There was a beautiful book, aptly named automatic writing that talked about it as a tool, it was written by a psychologist, as a tool to connect with your subconscious, and learn about your deep inner wiring or programming that's commanding everything that you may not even be aware of. So it has been an incredibly powerful tool for that purpose for a very long time. Now, when it comes to brain health, our brains are like the laptop or the computer you have in front of you. Too many programs open too many apps, too many windows, too many things dragging you down at best and having a really warped bias at worst. What if we could get clarity of what we're really thinking of who we really are of what's really going on? Let's say that you are talking with your spouse and you snap, excuse me, get really upset. And your unsettledness is not commensurate to the energy that your spouse is giving you. You can go into automatic writing. And you can say let's use a technical term what the flip hack and you will actually get the answer well, because you were wounded it might even go so far to say is because you were wounded in fourth grade when teachers something shut you down and this happened and that happened. This is why you've created this Hartwall this barrier where if somebody touches that wall, they get an electric shock. This is why you start to flip out in this circumstance. And here's what we can do to help you to heal

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's, you know, in my psychology training, he used to do these Gestalt therapies, right, where you would sit in two different chairs and be the same person, right, talking, like asking a question, then moving over and answering that question from that position. And I found most of those that I would do with people, or even someone doing it to me, were some of the most instrumental ways to actually express a challenge I was having in my life about something, you know, a relationship that I was having an issue with, with somebody. You know, you mentioned that the automatic writing has been used by sages and authors for years. And I would agree with you many of the people that have been on this show, use this technique to write their books, not just one book, you know, 20 books later, we have all heard the statement that the book came through me, okay. And people said to me what I wrote the second book, how did you do it? And I keep saying, you know, I would just make time to sit and be, and I'd allow it to come through me. And I would write for two or three hours, and then I would stop, and I do that, three or four times a week before long, I had all this stuff. And then I said, well, but he didn't read it back. And then why aren't you reading it back and correcting it? And I said, because probably the worst thing you could do would be making all those corrections from a mental standpoint about what you just wrote, I didn't sit and correct it. So what prompts you? What prompts do you send out to the universe to get started with the automatic writing experience?

Michael Sandler
I do. I do a couple prayers. I do a prayer that kind of puts me in this bubble of love and light. And then I do a second prayer where I call in assistance, we can call an Angels or guides loved ones on the other side of the veil. My daughter who passed away in utero is one of my two twins, the other ones playing upstairs. Her name is Mira COO, which stands for miracle and miracle comes through pretty much every day and says Daddy, I'll feel this question kind of wild. But but you can go then and call in assistance or As Napoleon Hill author of thinking Grow Rich calls it you can call in your boardroom. And then you ask questions, questions to your questions that are on your mind questions of what is most important for you? And then you begin to get answers in that sacred space.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah, it's so important to set the space up. Right? I know a lot of people they like to put headphones on listen to music,

Michael Sandler
or I'll put on I have people listen to it's a great point you make theta brain entrainment music, right. And I interviewed Dr. Andrew Newberg for the book author of enlightenment in the brain. And he took a look at longtime or Yeah, longtime automatic writing practitioners, and saw changes neuros neurological changes that took place in the brain, at least during automatic writing. And they would enter this state of brainwave state where the frontal lobe, the part of the brain responsible for where am I going, what do I need to get done what we call our executive functions, and writing that part of the brain powers down the parietal lobe, the part of the brain up here responsible for last song of the Beatles by George Harrison. I mean, my I mean, my I mean, my, the egoic center of the brain, it powers down. We've got the IMMI offline, we've got the Writing Center offline. We've got you vibrating in this state of brainwave state, which is a more creative space more connected to something greater than ourselves. And it is in that space with those headphones on that the words really begin to flow as you're in this sacred place. There's one thing I want to touch on, Greg, you You did some amazing writing. And that writing has an energy to it a frequency to it. I know your books have it that goes beyond you, because it didn't come from you. It's a co creation grounded, but it didn't come from you. So what I challenge everyone to do in their automatic writing is make their day in automatic writing sandwich, which is if you write it in the morning, that's one of your pieces of bread, then you have your good vegan meat throughout the day, that essay, then read it again in the evening. You get in a unique, beautiful, vibratory state when you're writing. And you know this because when you're done, you're kind of cooked but it's been good. You get in this beautiful vibratory state, you're attuned to a higher frequency. That attunement carries you through the most of the day. And then you want that pick me up that attunement at the end of the day by rereading what you wrote, you don't have to edit it, but you can put yourself back in that sacred space, which then helps you to process to learn and to grow overnight, or a lot of people do the writing late at night, that's when they get their creative ideas or pop, pop pop. If so you write it in the evening. And then in that attuned you for your dream world, which your dream world really is your waking world for the other side of the veil. And then when you come to in the morning, reread it again, and be attuned, it's a vibratory change here for you vibrate at a higher frequency for the day ahead.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, that brings me to this environment in which people write in an environment, they set up the meditation that they might do before, you know, you talked about meditation, the monkey mind, how do we Quiet? This monkey mind? You know, it's pretty active most of the time for most people. I know most good meditators will talk about that. They'll say, Okay, well, you just let it be and then let it you know, move out, right. It's not something that's not be against it. Let's just let it say what it's going to say and then let it move on. Right? What advice would you have for the listeners about quieting that monkey mind?

Michael Sandler
I'm gonna go the reverse direction. And it's actually you were saying it. Let's hear what the monkey mind has to say. I have an exercise I call an ego dump. I used to call it Better out than in, you grab a notebook, a journal, cheap composition book, if you want, preferably a nice recycled one. And if the ego mind is going nuts, set a timer. You don't have to do this all day. 510 minutes, whatever you'd like. And without censorship, allow the egoic monkey mind to barf all over you. Yep. All out. Do not censor it. Because Okay, between you and me, almost all of us, maybe not all of us. But almost all of us would go to jail if these writings were ever found, but still get them on paper Better out than in, then shred them, burn them, danced a margarita on them and be done with them. Because your subconscious or your egoic mind doesn't know the difference between the written word and the actual emotion or event. putting it down on paper is inflammatory. Unless you do something with it. It becomes a healing process. Once you shred that thing. It's may take time, but you'll find yourself getting lighter and lighter to where there's no longer the bite the croissants the energy behind it. It's not about squashing quelling that mind. It's about getting to that peaceful state where it no longer has to scream at you to be hurt.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I love the way you say that, you know, and I go back to these memories. I did an audio cassette tape series, I noticed he was on your show. With David Allen. I've known David for ever and ever. GTD getting things done, and the master of GTD David Allen. And we used to in the audio cassette tape series, you know, we reference back to the mind dump. Right? That was the term that was coined by David. And I, I remember that so distinctly because he had a brain on a piece of paper. And then he would have the people come in. And in many of the workshops I did, I did the same thing. We'd say, hey, get everything out that you're thinking before this workshop kind of begins, this is the brain dump. This is the time What are you thinking about? And it was amazing how many people would give him like 15 minutes? And they'd go, no, no, I need more time. You know, there was that much stuff on the paper. They just write and write and write. Now you refer to your source as your angels. And you mentioned that we can all call the source whatever we like, that's true. But the key is to listen and the ritual that we establish, to do the automatic writing. What advice do you have to help people initiate this ritual? And I know some people are gonna say, Well, I'd rather write with a pen and paper and I go yeah, just write with a pen and paper, or you want to write on your MacBook and then write on your MacBook. So talk to us about that ritual.

Michael Sandler
So it's a matter of, and it's not just angels that I go to I go to angels and guides, loved ones and higher dimensional beings and I don't even care what you call this stuff. It's the energy that is everything that is appearing to be in one form or another just like you're appearing to be Greg right now I'm appearing to be Michael doesn't matter what we call this stuff. It's the energy that is everything. We can call it the field. wouldn't call it our inner wisdom. If you don't believe in any of that. You don't have to You've got an inner wisdom, it's saying you to listen to this right now, right? So we can write to this and call it in. In essence, it's almost as simple as writing and saying, angels guides, Lightworkers whomever. Good morning, I'd like to speak to you. You call them in, you invoke them. And then whether it is your pen, on paper, or your fingers on a keyboard, and for myself, I'm dyslexic. I started with pen on paper, but the word started going so much and so fast that I started flipping, lettering every other word, and it became a mess, to where now I sit back on my keyboard, eyes almost closed, and I clickety clackety along in fact, the good old days, when I had my wife's old college chair, I would kick my head back lean into Melton to the chair, and I'd almost have my eyes closed and be like Stevie Wonder I LOVE STEVIE. And I'd be just grooving to this information laying on the chair almost eyes closed, as the words begin to flow getting into that space, sacred space. Key Point, we call them in, that's something Napoleon Hill is dead as well, right. And then we get the heck out of the way. That's why we call it channeling. Allow the channel to open. And then don't think allow whatever comes out on the page to come out. You don't have to listen, you don't have to discern, you don't have to try to translate, just get it down over time with practice. And I have a whole program automatic writing.com or the book, there's a whole practice where as you get better at it, what I call this cosmic handshake. As you develop this connection that goes from kind of smoke signal to a what do we call it dial up to fiber optic to a fiber optic tunnel as this connection grows stronger. Now you can start to have two way conversations, not just listening to whatever is on the other side, not just listening. And always key point. When you go into prayer, and you call in whomever calling in at the highest level. Don't play Wii G board. Weegee board is like getting a butterfly net and scooping up anything above you or below you. And I've got prayers in here so that you don't do that. Because you don't just want Billy Bob, unless Billy Bob was a loved one who crossed over. You don't just want Billy Bob speaking to you. You want the highest level you can get

Greg Voisen
very important point. And you know, I was going to ask you again because you mentioned this. The gentleman that did the brain science study Dr. Andrew Newberg Yeah, right now, are you actually listening to music when you're doing this as well or listening to his audio recordings that he's created? Or just music?

Michael Sandler
I'm listening to theta brain entrainment music, I made a whole series of it myself. Okay, so people can get that from get that bonus? Yeah, okay. Free, okay. Okay, and just downloadable from the website, downloadable. If you go to automatic writing.com, you get the book, you put in your receipt there, your little transaction number, and you get that or you can take our automatic writing program, where I have live classes once a month, and there's a whole video based program, and you get a whole library of music there as well, because I want to make it as easy for you as possible. I initially, I can tap in any time now. But I still like each morning when I go into automatic writing. I'm still going to do it with theta brain entrainment music, it just makes it so much simpler and faster. Now, if people are listening if they're diving into automatic writing, and there's a whole process but if you're listening and diving into automatic writing, as long as it's legit go get some theta brain entrainment musical for YouTube as well. It exists out there. How do I know if it's legit? Well, if the music's just kind of warm and fuzzy, that's not theta brain and drain music. Do you find yourself getting into a different brainwave state? I low? Because there's a lot of it out there.

Greg Voisen
Okay. That's good to know. Now, you provide a list of what the automatic writing experience is not. Can you tell the listeners what it is not? And what actually automatic writing experience is.

Michael Sandler
So the simplest way to put that is not a first person. I me my journaling writing experience. It's not I Michael or I, Greg am having a rough time. My day is not going well. I need to know what to do about this. That can be a very cathartic healing experience. There's no doubt about it. It's worked as a journaling tool for helping people heal for 1000s and 1000s of years. That's coming from the eye. We're coming from you. We want to go Supra up above the thinking mind above the eye. So you end up getting into a second person process. What does that mean? It means it's okay, dear one, you are loved. You're okay. Breathe deep. Relax into everything. We've got you. We'll take care of you. Let's talk about what's going on in your life. Now you're in the automatic writing process, your automatic reading experience. And you can hear the difference in my day is not going well. Breathe deep. All is good. We are here. There's a very different energetic field and shifts to it. That's why it's an attunement. It's in this place that we want to write. It's in this place where our problems don't turn us into kind of frothy, big problem is because we're focused on it. But we're stead got something big picture mind could be you on the other side of the veil just cheering you on taking a higher level perspective and speaking to you from there.

Greg Voisen
The best that I can explain it because I've been there is the I don't want to say it. There's a sense of peace. It's like when you've gone into a deep meditation, and you've experienced one of the most magical meditations you've had with, you know, the purple at the top of your crown chakra coming, pulsating. And you walk out of that. And other day I was at a, I was with a friend and I went to a self-realization Fellowship, which is right here in Encinitas. Yes, I know. And I And I'm, I'm a devotee. So we do the meditation. And I gotta tell people, this because I think this is, this is pretty important. You know, walk out, your pace slows, your mind slows, you observe the people, the birds, whatever it is. So I get in my car. And I'm driving, but I know I'm driving at a slower speed, I get that I get that I've slowed down. And people are honking at me. Like, ah. And I said to my friend, I said, I just got out of a meditation and look at these people. And the sense that I get is peace, you know that this space that we're talking about this experience we're talking about, is this amazing space, of just peace and tranquility. And that's where you reach this. Whatever source you want to call it, your angels, your other people. That's where you're going to access it when I wrote the book.

Michael Sandler
That's where I was. And the cool thing to me too, is that it doesn't mean that you're not going to get powerful messages, right? They may peacefully say, Turn the car, you're going the wrong direction. But they're going to do so even if it's turn car now. Do so out

Greg Voisen
of love. Yes, yes. I think that's important out of love. That is so important, Michael. So, you know, you're, we've talked about the environment, people set up what's optimal, I think that's great. Wherever you do it the morning, the evening, you do it in a bedroom, you do it out on your porch, it just go to the place you need to go. Your book, certainly the de facto for anyone wanting to explore the world of automatic writing, let's face it, what advice would you like to leave our listeners with so that their experience with automatic writing is meaningful, and a memorable one? In other words, I think that I think you can start this process off. And if you start off on the wrong foot, and you don't have that good experience, right away, you may like postpone. And I don't think people listening to this podcast should postpone because they have one or two, not optimal experiences.

Michael Sandler
So first, I'm going to be biased, and I'm going to say get the book, get the program. Heck, you can go on to Amazon and probably find a used copy for dollar 50 or something, right? Learn the whole process. Don't skip steps in the beginning. So critically important. And then kind of like your meditation experience, let go of the outcome. There's no such thing really as a bad meditation. Let's the fire alarm goes off and you sit there like that. There's no such thing as a bad automatic writing experience, because it's an energetic attunement. So we go in there without attachment to the outcome without needing anything from it Part A Part B. There is a trust that develops over time. I have a relationship that develops between you and whatever it is that you're speaking to. When I first started automatic writing, I was in a class where we connected with the Akashic masters, the librarians of the universe. How cool is that. And it wasn't the automatic writing experience, but it was their process of getting into the state and communicating with a masters. And I was told, you're going to be a leader, you're going to be a teacher, you're going to be speak before 1000s and 1000s of people up on a mountain top up on high. And I had to read that back to the class. And I was aghast. And I thought it was my ego and my ego take it over, and maybe out to be this blah, blah, blah. And I was horrified. And I that was my first experience. I didn't do it again, Greg for at least another year and a half, maybe two years. Then I did it again. Same answers. On my third time, same answer. Finally, after life was flipped upside down and backwards to where I needed something to shift my existence. I went into automatic writing and said, Alright, whatever you're saying, I'm going to suspend disbelief. And just play with it. And over time, it became clear of what was coming for me what was not fast forward. A few years later, I had our inspire nation show. It's on YouTube, it's everywhere. I had been invited to the Nobel Peace Prize conference in Mexico. I was a leader. I was a teacher. And I broadcast from our home up on a mountain top on Colorado. To 1000s and 1000s of people from up on high.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. That's perfect. That's perfect way to kind of wrap this up for our listeners. Now. For the listeners, like you said, go out and get a copy of the book. It's not a new book, when did you first publish it?

Michael Sandler
I believe now, a year and a half, two years ago, it took four tries to get it right with the guides. I'm so proud of it. As recently as probably the last month that became the number one again, angels and spirit guides and channeling book on Amazon, it bounces around the top a bunch. I do a channeled teaching everyday to raise your vibration at daily woohoo, that's W O H O daily woohoo.com. That comes right out of my automatic writing. So you can get a taste of it, you can get that energetic sense, because I want to do an energetic like an espresso pick you up every day. But it's something everyone should have access to. When I went to that Nobel Peace Prize summit, I wanted to like go to all the leaders who are already doing great things and give them each a copy. Because Can you imagine in this world, if everybody was plugged in at the highest level and taking action from there, how much the world would change?

Greg Voisen
Oh, tremendously. So we'd see so many great transformational shifts worldwide. You know, so our listeners just so they know you can get to Michael's work by inspiration. It's inspire nation show, inspire nation show.com www automatic writing.com is another way to get there. It's on the back of the book as well. And you can get go to the YouTube channel, which he's got just type in Michael Sandler, and you'll get a lot of his messages. He's got a lots of video up there. Michael, it's been a pleasure having you on thank you for sharing something that is so important. And I'm going to just say this blankly for really everybody to know, it doesn't matter if you're writing a book, or you're just getting out some emotional energy. This is a great way to heal, and continue to heal. In other words, something you can do for a lifetime. It isn't just something you do once you just stay with this. You just keep doing it and doing it and doing it. And I think once you start it and you get the feel for it. You'll be pleasantly addicted to this. This isn't a bad addiction. It's a good one. So namaste to you. Thank you for the great energy that you brought across these airwaves. To all of my listeners, and thank you for doing the work that you're doing, Michael,

Michael Sandler
Thank you so much, Greg, for me having me here. How does it get any better than this? get any better than that the

Greg Voisen
Next time we do it, we'll make it better. How's that?

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Podcast 987: The Power Persona Project with Rocky Buckley

Joining me today is Rocky Buckley. He is an entrepreneur, a coach and a consultant. He is also the creator of Platinum Path Mastermind and of The Power Persona Project.

Rocky has consulted on over 3000 projects for clients that range from billion-dollar brands to experts, authors, Thought Leaders, Influencers and entrepreneurs in 9 countries and over 100 different markets. He helps solopreneurs experts thought leaders and influences reinvent, reinvent their expertise and shift into high priced life, friends lifestyle friendly business model.

In The Power Persona Project, Rocky gets to work with business owners from all around the world and have conversations with superstars, legendary authors and speakers, and marketing gurus. Its vision is to break through to the next level and become the leaders and impact makers of the future. Moreover, it gives access to first-class tools, strategies, and techniques to master both the “Inner Game” and “Outer Game” of success, all within the warm, friendly environment of a true community of passionate members on the same journey together.

If you want to know more about Rocky, you may click here to visit his website.

I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Rocky Buckley. Thank you!

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.

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Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth and Rocky, everybody knows me but they don't know you. But Rocky Buckley is joining us from Charlottesville or Charlotte, Charlottesville, Charlottesville, Virginia. And he came way of me to buy one of his people that reaches out. And I always am intrigued by individuals who are doing branding for many of you who know, we've had Dorie Clark on here and all kinds of people like that, that talk about personal brands. We just had Connie Steele on who actually is somebody in your neck of the woods. She's in Maryland, about personal branding, and it's always interested me is like, Hey, how are we helping people in personal brands, especially in today's Internet age, right? Because it's a big deal. But I'm gonna tell the listeners a little bit about you. If you want to know more about Rocky, just go to Rocky Buckley r-o-c-k-y-b-u-c-k-l-e-y.com. There, you can learn more about him. But he is an entrepreneur, a coach, consultant, and the creator of platinum path mastermind, where he helps solopreneurs experts thought leaders and influences reinvent, reinvent their expertise and shift into high priced life, friends lifestyle friendly business model. And I like that because you know, for a lot of us, we are solopreneurs that's what we're doing out here. And it is a lifestyle business, podcasting is kind of a lifestyle business. He's also the creator of power persona framework, a unique Inside Out strategy for personal branding and positioning as a public figure. Over the last 23 years, Rocky has helped his clients bring over $100 million in training programs, curriculum, and information products to the market. He's consulted on over 3000 projects for clients ranging from billion dollar brands like Parsons, Wiley McMillan, to expert authors and entrepreneurs in nine countries, and over 100 different markets. He's worked behind the scenes of numerous seven and eight figure product launches, and most recently partnered with Tony Robbins, and Dean grazioso. On their time to thrive challenge. Well, you have a great background for this. And you're somebody that anybody who's out there listening today who's either started a business or is running a business on the side, or whatever it might be, we'd need to hear from you about what it is you can do to help them right. And that's what we like to do on inside personal growth. That's it people that are seeking and want to help. So Rocky, speak with us a little about how you became this personal brand expert you told me on our pre interview? And why in the digital age that we're living in and so important to have this unique personal brand. You know,

Rocky Buckley
I'm sure well, thanks for having me on, Greg. Well, I guess the first thing I would say is I don't necessarily position myself as an expert. In this space, I think I'm kind of somewhere between an expert and a fellow traveler on that journey, because it's only really been in the last few years that I've become more of a public figure. I think for me, it really started way back when I was a kid, I was a high potential kid, I was a gifted high IQ kid who always had this mantle of like potential put on me, because I was, you know, a smart kid and so on. But I was always told from the time I was young, you know, you can become anything that you want to become and, you know, become somebody make a real difference in the world. And so I kind of always had that sense of something like that, in my future ever since I was a kid. And all the way growing up, you know, I was interested in things like sports and acting, and film. And in all of those interests and passions that I had, I always looked at it through the lens of, you know, fame and having a platform and being able to be a role model to impact other people's lives. You know, so whether I wanted to be a professional baseball player or make movies, I always looked at it through the lens of I can use this to make a difference in people's lives. And then you know, over the years as it took me into the business world, I found myself working with a lot of authors and experts and entrepreneurs, on their books and their intellectual property on their websites. And in the process of working with these people, I always found that I would come to a point where I was trying to extract out of them, you know, who is this really for? Why is this important? What are you trying, really trying to communicate in this logo or in this website, what are you trying to do and so on. So I started to kind of enter this space of, you know, positioning and communication and messaging. And at the same time, I was also very involved in ministry leadership. So I was, you know, standing on stages, I was speaking a lot, I was trying to impact people, and the thought of leadership and communication and how you frame, you know, topics and so on, and how you move people, all of these things were always rolling around in my head. But it wasn't really until a few years ago, where, you know, I had been in business for about 20 years. But I wasn't more of a behind the scenes guy, I wasn't a public figure. And so when it came time where I made that decision, I'm going to actually step out from behind the shadows and become, you know, a public person. What do I do now with myself? Like, how do all these things that I've worked with other people on all these years? How do I actually now use that stuff? to position myself? How do I articulate the best version of me for public consumption. And so that's sort of the origin of that journey. And so I had to kind of go through and extract stuff out of my own head and articulate it and put it into a process that you refer to earlier as my power persona framework. So I think that, you know, personal branding, as you mentioned, we're living in a digital age or a social age. And, you know, if you're in business where you're trying to make an impact, there's really no choice you have to be online, you have to be a public persona. And so the question isn't whether to do it, it's just how do you do it? And how do you do it? Well, so your personal brand is something that is going to carry with you, through the years, you know, we're, we're in a time where there's rapid change, we're in a very rapidly changing world, we're most likely going to have to reinvent ourselves many times over the course of our career. But the one constant thing is us is the person inside of that. And so I think being able to get in touch with that being strategic about it. And, you know, being an expert in how to how to reinvent yourself, how do you reframe your messaging, the target audience that you're looking at, and so on. And all of that, like, that makes that best version of you, that breaks through the noise and stands out in a crowd? So I think that skill is just becoming more and more important, as we go into the future.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's, it's so apparent, Rocky, that, you know, it's not a one size fits all, you know, when you start to work with people like Tony Robbins, and I go back to the day, you know, the Zig Ziglar is of the world and the people that would really inspire and motivate salespeople, right? Or the religious leaders that I would listen to, like Dr. Schuler, who's now passed, or those kinds of people and you would say, you know, charisma, you know, you would look at so many of them, and especially the spiritual leaders with the kind of charisma Norman Vincent Peale. Used to be a guy with listen to it, I go back to the day and I had cassette tapes, and I would pull it up, put them in the car. And for hours, I would listen to Norman Vincent Peale. And, you know, some people, you say, Well, are they born with it? You know, it's like, oh, you know, did you? Did these guys get born with it? So that, you know, they just turn into these natural, charismatic, you know, personalities that do it. But speak with us about this, what you refer to his conscious identity design? I'm not certain that people like Zig Ziglar and Norman Vincent Peale. Even would know what conscious identity design would be. I think they just went out there and just did it? And how would one approach creating a conscious design for them?

Rocky Buckley
Yeah, I think actually, if you go back to that literature, in that time, probably, what I'm talking about with conscious identity design would invoke something like Maxwell Maltz, in Psycho Cybernetics. And it's something like that, where there's this self-image that you're looking to actually design and build from the inside out. So when I talk about conscious identity design, it's really in the context of being a public persona. So that it's not just in general terms, although you can do that. But identity itself, if you really look into who we are, and who we believe that we are, inside of that is a whole web of different roles, that we have context, and so on. So when I talk about conscious identity design, it's in the context of that role as a public figure, entrepreneur, leader, sort of person. And so, you know, a lot of us when we get into this space of becoming a public figure, we jump right into the tactical aspects of it, we might start putting out a lot of content, putting out messaging, marketing products, and so on. But invariably, unless you are a natural, you hit it immediately. A lot of people find that they struggle that they struggle to resonate with an audience. And so there's a lot to unpack inside of that. Right. So when I talk about conscious identity design, it's not like I'm going to create a false in authentic person. It's really how do I get a clear vision on who I want to become Oh, I'm hearing some music is there? Okay? So when I talked about conscious identity design, it's about who do I want to become? What's that vision for myself as a public figure? And how do I end up achieving that? Right? So a lot of people look at, you know, this from the standpoint of discovering themselves or finding themselves. And I find that that can be a lot of navel gazing, it can be a black hole that can eventually lead to nowhere, I look at it really from the standpoint of creating that version of yourself, right? Instead of trying to determine in mind, Oh, who am I? What was I created to be? What's my purpose? And all of this stuff? I look at it from the standpoint of, what do I want? And how do I create that? And so, you know, there's a whole process of going through that, looking at your life vision, what's your vision for, ultimately, a big picture in life? Who do you want to become in 510 20 years? How does that inform your business vision? And then inside of that, what is that role that you play as a public figure inside of that, then when you actually go to execute it, you know, it's a combination of aspects like Maxwell, multiple talk about in psycho cybernetics, it's visualization, it's imagining that version of yourself, right conditioning your mind to believe that's who you are, and that's who you're becoming. But it's also actions, you know, it's different activities that you can put yourself in proximity to that start to shift your identity. So for example, it might be let's say, you've had a struggle over the years, you know, connecting with the idea of becoming wealthy. Well, if you want to change your identity, as somebody who is a wealthy person who attracts wealth, and so on, consciously putting yourself in situations where maybe you're looking at big, beautiful homes, or you're going to see, you know, expensive supercars and things like that you're putting yourself in proximity of these things that eventually in the future you would be experiencing. So I think it's a combination of a number of different factors together, but ultimately, at the end of the day, it's about bringing forth that best version of yourself, for the public. Right? So that's in designing them becoming very conscious of that process, rather than just allowing it to happen.

Greg Voisen
Well, it does. And to add to that, and there's a question here is, you know, I think, as a species, as individuals, we evolve, we have life experiences, life experiences, than the sum total of those experiences help us to actually identify with who we are, because some of them are really hard experiences. Some of them are great experiences. But the reality is, you know, there's been a state of Maine, you're, you're kind of the sum total of the experiences that you've had in your life. But to have those experiences, you also need to have a huge bit of curiosity, a curiosity to want to go out and seek and find new things and do new things and explore and understand what they are. And this helps to develop this personal persona. This is what makes you who you are, you know, when you're born, you can say, well, I had an identity. But the reality is you were just a baby, and you evolved into who you are because of the sum total of your experiences. Now, that doesn't, like I said a minute ago, that also comes from the experiences that you had either positive or negative when you put yourself out there, when you were doing a public presentation. I remember a guy that was on here. And he and he was going to do a magic app in his sixth grade. And they laughed at him because he went blank with his little talk and his magic or whatever. Many people who are listening right now can relate to that, like, hey, I had this horrible experience when I went to go do public speaking in fifth grade, right? And that sticks with him. Until at some point, the pain is so great. They just take a huge risk, and they go for it and they become a wonderful speaker. Right? So speak with us about the levels of charisma, some of us have more than others. How would you help someone naturally discover the DNA charisma that they use that enhance their message to prospective clients and customers? And again, when I say this, to find it, when they find it, they also find their niche, their market? Right?

Rocky Buckley
I think really do that. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah, I think charisma is really directly related to how you how tapped into your sense of purpose. You are, because we've all experienced I look at charisma as a state. Really, I think that all of us have experienced charismatic states very much the way that we've experienced peak states in our lives, right? There's been times where we've been sitting around a table with friends and telling a story. And you know, everybody's locked in and everybody's riveted to that story. And we've been magnetic. We've experienced those moments of resonating with people very deeply, so it can happen. And the normal way that it happens is when we're talking about something we're enthusiastic about. We're truly passionate, we're truly caring. And so there's this what Olivia Fox kabbani talks about in her book, The Charisma Myth is this combination of power, presence and warmth. And that essentially captures what charisma really is. So I believe that when you're really tapped into a sense of purpose, you have a real clear idea of who is it that I'm really here to serve in the world? What is that problem that I'm here to solve? And you're really tapped into the pains of that problem, right? What are the what are the people that I want to serve, feeling on a daily basis when they're struggling? When they're hurting, you know, they want some kind of a solution, they're dreaming of some better future, right? Whatever that might be. Tapping into those emotional elements of it, is what allows us to really experience this charismatic state, it comes forth in us, we begin speaking and communicating with a lot more passion, energy, and so on. And that becomes contagious to other people. So I believe that, like Marilyn Monroe talked about this, she would just flip into a state at will and say, I'm going to suddenly change from Norma Jean to Marilyn Monroe, watch me do it. And she would go into some kind of a state and transform herself, magically into Marilyn Monroe. And I think that for us, we may not do it at that level. But the same idea is there when we can connect into those emotional drivers related to our purpose, it changes our state. And when we can notice our state, we can notice what do I how do I sound? What's the tone of my voice? What's the pace? Do I speak faster? Do my hands start to move like mine do right? am I breathing faster? What is what happens in my posture, when we can start to notice how our state changes, when we're charismatic, we can replicate that state at will. So that's what I'd like to talk about with charisma is essentially, it's capturing that state as a recipe. And at will being able to replicate it when we want to. So when we're going on camera or on stage, we can be our most charismatic, but it all ties back to that sense of purpose. That's our highest level, that's our highest driver. And that's where all of our emotion and passion pours through. And other people feel that and it's an X factor. But people get that. And so I love to help people kind of tap into that and, and use it as much as they can.

Greg Voisen
And I can see how you do that. And one thing I would say though, it's interesting, Rocky, that they always said, if you wanted to write a good book, write the book where you were in a movie theater with a friend, and you would whisper messages in their ear. In other words, somebody who writes good copy or writes good book, or is able to market to somebody or they read. It isn't always about charisma, always. It's about how you relay the message where the person feels warm, comforted, and understands what you're attempting to advise them of, or tell them or whatever. And I and I remember that from somebody saying when you write a book, make sure you're writing it as if somebody was sitting in the theater with you, and you were whispering messages in their ear, right?

Rocky Buckley
Well, that's where charisma, it's, you know, it's just one piece of the puzzle, right? Resume is really the animating factor. But there's a lot of other factors that come into this strategy. And one of those is, in fact, market research. And it's knowing who that ideal person is in depth, and feeling everything that they feel and knowing their dreams and aspirations and the things that keep them up at night and all of that. So when you can combine the strategic with the emotional, I think that's really where that that most powerful version of you can really come out.

Greg Voisen
I agree. And with that being said, there are people that are selling things or marketing things that they almost seem similar, you know, it's like, red ocean blue ocean. We'll talk about that here. Now. You know, everyone said, well, the blue ocean is where the sharks don't swim. But the red ocean is where there's a lot of bloodbath. And that's where you see it. So when you look at personal to do lists, programs, there's Todoist. And there's Asana, and there's click up. And there's this one, and there's that one, and there's lots it's a very blurred space. Right. It's very blurred. Very challenging, challenging to determine what would be the best but most of my listeners know about the book that chan Kim wrote and Rene wrote, regarding the blue ocean, speak with us about creating a blue ocean strategy, and if you would, this is Ken Blanchard term 100% of raving fans. So how would you help somebody do that?

Rocky Buckley
Yeah, I think it does come down to those unique factors that only you can bring to the table. And I think this is where a lot of people fall short, because they don't do the deep inner work to understand what those factors are. So like if we're in a space, and we're seeing, you know, for example, in the marketing space, and there's a lot of online gurus, the markets flooded with copycats, because everybody starts to think this is how I have to sound like this is what's selling today. So I have to act like this sort of brash, personality, or whatever it might be the bro market, or whatever it might be. But I think, you know, for most of us, we have to figure out our own unique voice be our most authentic, because that's where we're going to, we're going to obviously make the deepest impact on people, and being strategic and being able to step back and really look into what those elements are, that make us unique. And so there's a whole palette of those and some of those come from our life story, what are those aspects in our in our history, that are kind of different than anybody else? So for example, in my space right now, you know, I went to film school I was I went to New York University film school, I think I don't I'm not sure that there's anybody else in my space, who went to film school or was in ministry leadership, or was a commodity trader, like things. So there's, there's aspects in my past, that I can bring forward into the way that I talk about my subject that's different than anybody else. There's likes and dislikes that I have. It might be sports teams, it might be, you know, music, films, anything that we can pull into this orbit of who we're presenting ourselves to be, give us a different flavor. And so it really requires a stepping back and looking into ourselves and saying, you know, what, are those elements? What are these talents that maybe I have, that I don't use in my business at all? Maybe I am very musical, or maybe I do impressions, like I do a lot of voices. But I never bring that into my business? Well, what if I actually said, hey, let me have some fun, and start bringing that into my business. And I'll start imitating people, right, as part of my video content, and it'll be funny, and it'll be engaging for people, right. So there's so many untapped resources that we have within us that we could bring into what we talk about that would greatly differentiate us from anybody else. Now, strategically big picture. I like to think about, you know, Al Ries and Jack trout in their book positioning, talking about finding that what they call a crunchy they use a French word, but it means a whole a cavity, in the market where no one else is, where you can be the first and you can be the only. And so when I talk about strategy, I always talk about it from the standpoint of being a category creator, can you just create your own space for yourself, design it that way. And then you can proceed when you execute your business vision, moving more into that blue ocean, you know, first and only sort of positioning. So to me, it's like you got to start with that vision. And then you've got to design how to get there. But I think getting a clear vision and a big picture of where you want to go and who you want to be right? And do you want to be funny? Do you want to be warm? Do you want people to love you? Do you want to be polarizing, you have to figure a lot of that stuff out. And that's what our framework really helps people to do?

Greg Voisen
Well, in the process of that, I mean, I've been doing personal growth interviews, personal growth. For now, we're 16 years down the air. And you know, when you look at the numbers of people that speak about identity, kind of like, who is the alter ego? What is my persona that you were talking about? How was that defined? How did I defined it? How does the world see it? How do I see it? All those are important questions. But in the end, what's really probably most important is what's going to make you as an individual. How would I want to say this happy content, and having achieved what you would like to achieve in the world? So you call it purpose? That's right. I agree. But then you have those goals that you set around that purpose. So for that, you've got something that you talk about, which is called you're going platinum as a high priced expert, because everybody here you said, Well, just when I first started off, I called you an expert. And he said, Well, no, don't refer to me as an expert. But that I think it's do you see yourself as a thought leader? In a particular area, that's another term that could be used versus an expert? What must happen in the mindset of one of the clients that you're that they need to embrace? And what are the characteristics of becoming a platinum? Let's call them thought leaders in their field, and what needs to shift mentally and emotionally rocky for somebody to actually claim that? It's one thing to say, Well, I'm a thought leader, it's another thing to actually claim that You're a thought leader, and you have a knowing that you're a thought leader, not just a belief.

Rocky Buckley
Yeah, yeah. And it's not only claiming it, but then it's actually putting a price tag on it, charging for it. And that's really where the, you know, where the mindset issues come in. And whenever you talk to people about sort of raising your price, raising your profile, positioning yourself, as like a top expert in your space, all this stuff comes up. And I find that the three main areas that this occurs, and first of all, is just a belief level, people may have a belief, a false belief that you know, only the affluent can afford to pay high prices, right. So unless I'm really willing to just go for like the rich and target the rich, I can't charge high prices. And maybe they have baggage around doing that, right. And I think so that level, the sense of okay, only the affluent can afford high prices, that belief has to be debunked. It's sort of like, well look around, people are paying high prices for all sorts of solutions all day long. And they're not necessarily affluent. It's like, it's a belief that you have to cultivate to realize that when a person reaches a point in their life, in their business, in their relationship in their health, where there's a big enough problem, there's a big enough why there's a sense of urgency, and they've tried a lot of things. And, you know, and they're really kind of at the end of all of these half measures, they're ready to go all in, they've decided to burn the bridge and say, I have to fix this, people will are resourceful, and people will find the money to pay that. And of course, you know, you want to provide a true solution that actually solve the problem that helps people, but getting over that hurdle and saying, you know, I can charge high prices and kind of the average person in this situation can afford it or configure out the resources to be able to get the money to pay for it. I think that's a hurdle that a lot of people have to get over. The second one, of course, is a self-doubt issue, no one will pay me, I see other people getting paid, but not me, right, I'm not worthy. And that's where you get into a lot of the self-issues. And that's a lot of debugging as well. But why are you not worth it, you've gotten all of these results with certain kinds of people, and so on, and you are worth it. Now, what I will say is a lot of people in the high ticket expert space, simply talking about raising your price, just from a mindset standpoint, just kind of deciding like, you're worth it. So start charging. And I think that's where a lot of people find there's a there's a disconnect, because at some point, you realize, well, I'm really not worth it, I'm this kind of stuff that I'm providing, isn't really worth, you know, a $10,000 fee. So it may require strategic shifts. So for example, let's say you're a personal trainer, and you typically work with people and you're helping them you know, drop 10 pounds, get in that bikini for the summer, whatever it might be. But you're not solving like a high level problem. Being able to shift the way that you position your solution, it goes up exponentially when there's urgency around it. So for example, it might be a person that needs to lose 100 pounds, instead of losing 10, there's 100 pounds, and there's massive health implications involved. Or it could be you're trying to train an actor get an actor ready in six weeks for a film, and they've got to take their shirt off in the movie, suddenly, your skill to help people transform their body has become a lot more valuable because there's urgency around it, right? So sometimes you have to simply reposition yourself figure out how can I become more valuable? Do I need to serve people differently? Do I solve a different problem a higher level problem, right? So there's a lot of that involved as well. And then the final mindset issue that I see a lot is, am I going to be judged? Right? You start to feel if I start saying like I'm this top expert, and I'm charging all this money? What are people going to think of me? What are the people that I love? Are they going to start to see me differently, like now I'm trying to rip people off and so on. And I think that that has to be reframed, it has to be looked at as like, Okay, well, some people may actually feel that way incorrectly. But for the most part, when I charge higher prices, I'm actually getting people better results. Because they have more skin in the game, instead of paying $1,000 And they're paying 10,000 Now they're really involved, they're gonna treat me with much more respect and authority, and they're gonna actually do what I tell them to do, right? So you actually get better results at higher price points than you do at lower price points, in many cases, providing again, that what you're doing is ethically viable and valuable for people. So I think those are really the three big mindset shifts around going platinum.

Greg Voisen
And they are and you know, the interesting thing is in since all dawn of time, there's been a variance in prices of products and quality and product doesn't matter if it's Gucci versus Tesla versus whatever it might be and I'm willing to pay, because the company in a lot of cases has done a really good job of branding their products. Now there are people carrying Gucci purchase purses, that probably shouldn't be, right. In other words, they bought it because of the image associated with it. And I think when you're doing consulting, and you're putting a price on something you said high priced, I think is that a fair price where the value that the person receives is equal or greater than the remuneration, the money that they're willing to give up for that. I know, attorneys that charge 1800 an hour. And I know attorneys to charge $300 an hour. And so you know, you're always going to have this spectrum. And the question is really comes down. And when you buy this, do you believe that you're getting fair value, right, fair value. And that's what it really kind of boils down to? And you speak about this, you have this personal persona project. And you're working with a dean Grazi OC, and Tony Robbins, could you talk with the listeners about what you're doing and your personal persona project? And what's actually happening, I watched an interview with you and Dean and it was really fascinating.

Rocky Buckley
Yeah, well, the power persona project community is really a membership. That is for experts, thought leaders, influencers, entrepreneurs, and anyone who is looking to build a personal brand. So inside power persona, this is where I teach the power persona framework that I had alluded to earlier. And we bring people together in an environment where, you know, they're on the journey together, they're receiving great training content, they're looking at guest expert interviews, they're in a community together, having great conversations, there's a marketplace, podcast, exchange, all sorts of things inside of that community. Because I really believe that in a, in a rapidly changing world, being in a real time environment with other peers who are on that same journey, and are all learning from each other in a collegial setting. You know, there's nothing better for personal growth than doing it with other people. So the power persona project is a community that I've created to kind of facilitate people's growth and reinvent their businesses, their personal brands, and so on, again, using the framework that I mentioned. Now, in terms of my work with, you know, Tony Robbins, and Dean Graziosi, that's something that came out of the blue, I was actually approached to partner with them on their most recent time to thrive challenge, which was really all about the knowledge industry, which was, you know, Tony and Dean had a goal to bring a whole new generation of people into the knowledge industry, the expert space, being able to teach what they know, be enthusiast, you know, share their passion, interview others, et cetera. It's a booming industry with a with a very bright future. And I think Tony and Dean essentially see the same things that I see, there's a tremendous opportunity that it's only going to get better going into the future. But there's also a lot of dangers in terms of, you know, making it work, you've got to stand out in a crowded marketplace, the more people come online, the more businesses come online, the more people are entering all of these different spaces, it becomes more important than ever to be able to stand out. And, you know, position yourself in that place as somebody that other people will follow and resonate with. So it was a great experience, I had the privilege of being able to interview Dean and chat with him. As they were launching this, I believe the numbers will show this was the biggest launch in internet marketing history. So they did fantastic with it. And they brought all these new experts into the market. And some of those people are going to be, you know, the stars of the future that you'll see in the next couple of years. So it's very exciting.

Greg Voisen
There will always be a ratio of individuals that make it and individuals that are not going to make it or at least it depends on what you define making it is right. The reality of just being able to put one step in front of the other and actually try it and take the risk and not have the fear is really a key element of it, no matter where it takes you. It's the experience again, of what actually happened along the way on what you learned to improve as an individual your own personal growth, your own mastery of something, your own ability to do that. In your case. That's what you're helping people do. Even with your program. You're saying hey, look, I'm here, I'm here to help you you're going to make an investment in me you're going to make an investment in what we're doing. And you know, going in that not everybody here is going to be a huge success. But your it's what you define as success. What is your definition of that? What is it going for? What is your why and your K? As you know, you have what is the multiplier model shift that one could make you that could make to expand their brand. And to leave a legacy? What is this multiplier model shift? And how would somebody listening today who's out on the internet, like myself, you know, engaging the multiplier model effect in how could that help us exponentially change the number of people that see us hear us and engage with us?

Rocky Buckley
Sure what I talked about the multiplier effect, it's really mainly aimed at entrepreneurs who are focused in on a one to one model, so they're working with one client at a time. So they may be a coach or a consultant or somebody of that nature. And they're basically serving each client on a time for money basis, maybe they're charging by the hour or by the package, and so on. The multiplier is really when you can move from a one to one business model to a one to many business model. That's what allows you to have impact through time and space, right? All around the world at the same time, and all of that. Now, the question is, how do you actually do that? So the central piece of that is first being able to extract the knowledge out of your head, understanding what you are an expert in? How do you work? What are all those processes that you use and being able to successfully pull it out of yourself and understand how you work put it into a linear format that other people can follow, turn it into a system that you can brand and framework that other people can, can absorb easily, right. So you have to be able to teach it well, as well. So that's the first step is really extracting your own IP extracting your value and putting it into a format that other people can consume and find valuable. So that may be something like an online course, it could be a book, it could certainly be a podcast as well. But when you're essentially distilling what you know, and putting it into a new format that other people can consume rapidly. And the second is also in your delivery model, right. So you can get leverage, when you're, let's say, serving multiple people at the same time. That's where you may move from a one to one to like a group coaching program, or a workshop or a retreat, where you're all in the same environment, but your time is being leveraged because you're serving 1250 100 people all at the same time. So the two steps are really extracting your IP, putting it into a format that other people can consume. And then moving into these models where you're serving many people at the same time. And that can greatly multiply your business because you know, in a one to one sort of model, you just can't serve that many people, right, you can only serve one client at a time. And you're often finding yourself repeating the same things over and over, you're teaching the same things again and again to people. And when you can put that material into like a digital format that they can consume. And essentially liberate yourself from having to do those mundane tasks over and over again, and really focus mainly on giving people feedback advice, based on the videos that they watched, essentially, that you created one time, and now that can be accessed anytime around the world. Right? So that's what I'm talking about with multiplier specific to an expert, extract your knowledge and then move into a different one to many model.

Greg Voisen
So you know, it's interesting, that multiplier effect, you know, you did speak about what in that. But at the same time, what's really, really imperative is kind of like the design of how that content is developed, learning content is developed. And I know you're an expert at that. And I want to let my listeners know that this is one of Rocky's real expertise is kind of the design of how you do it. When you design learning, because that's what people are learning to do. You need somebody like Rocky because you can't just slap it together and put it in, you know, think ethic or something like that, that somebody's going to come to think of it and want to consume your product because it just doesn't happen that way. It's got to have a unique model and design to it. And it has to be engaging, and it has to keep people's attention. And you've got a lot of things to think about when you're doing that. Now. What advice would you want the listeners to know about building their personal brand and how do you help people through this process and you know, you've got this, you know, they can go to Rocky buckley.com which we just said which is one and you have some new stuff coming out. You were telling me about before we started this? Would you like to let the listeners know a little bit about that and where you're headed? And what you're going to do and how they can be obviously, can we reach you through here? But you're gonna have a new website coming up? Yeah,

Rocky Buckley
yeah, sure. I mean, when you're talking about, you know, the path to kind of develop this strategy in his public persona strategy, the thing I think that I do differently than anyone else's, I look at it kind of from an inside out inner game, personal development sort of lens, where I really start with the foundation with one's life vision, that's the very first piece is going through understanding what it is that you want in life, not only now, but in the next five years, 10 years, 20 years into the future, and who do you want to become. And it's only when you can get really clear on the life vision that you can then get clear on the business vision, because your business vision will shift, depending on how you see your life and how you see who you want to become. And so aligning those things and making them congruent with each other, is really the first step. And then the question is, Who are you inside of that business vision? And what is that role that you're going to play? What is that public persona that you need to, you know, to be to be able to execute this vision and be successful that and then it becomes taking all these assets and resources that you have inside of yourself? Looking at those drawing those out? We talked about that a little bit earlier with things like your life story, or your talents, or your gifts, your likes and dislikes, how do you package all that together, and then articulate that into a brand and a strategy that sets you apart as first and only in your market, right, so there's all that strategic piece, and then from there, that's when you can go wild executing, we're putting out a lot of content and so on. But I find a lot of people miss the whole foundational piece. And they're putting out content, they're putting themselves out there. And they're just drawing crickets, like nothing's happening. And it's really because there's this whole tip of the iceberg phenomena where most of the iceberg under the water has never been addressed. And it's all those factors that make the tip of the iceberg work. That's why your marketing starts to work. Because you know yourself really well, you know, your market really well your customer, and you can talk in their language, right and bring the best version of yourself into that, you have to figure all of that stuff out strategically, before you start putting out a ton of content, or you can be experimenting with it, you know, at the same time. So if I were to give advice to people, that is really the place to start, in terms of working with me, you know, people can find me at Rocky buckley.com. I believe that by the time that this episode is going to air, we're a little bit before what's coming in the fall. And that's going to be the launch of my paid power persona projects community that's going to be hosted over at mighty networks. So people I can find the power persona project.com that will take them to my currently free Facebook group. And then eventually, in the fall again, this is going to turn into my paid community. And people can access that again at Rocky buckley.com.

Greg Voisen
Well, I can see you've worked behind the scenes with so many people. And now what you're doing is you're leveraging yourself. So Good on you for that. The other thing is, is that, you know, for any individual out there listening today, who has an idea, who wants to clearly define their vision, wants to work with somebody who could help you turn that vision into a product or a service or a book or a course, or whatever it might be. Rocky would be your guy, I'm gonna give you a personal endorsement, because I really believe that's true based on what I know about you. And what I've heard. The other thing would be that, you know, when you first start out in all of this, Rocky, what I've found is you find so many people trying to get breadth instead of depth. And what I mean by that is the internet is a great place to get breath, you know, but the question is, is the light bulb gone on for 10 seconds versus the light bulb being on for an hour and a half. And when you go deep, what happens is you're really lighting up a group of true advocates. And those are the advocates that are going to kind of spread your message if you do that correctly. out so the breath becomes greater. You know, it's, it's like me with the podcast show. Great. You reach a lot of people, but how many truly watch and listen over and over and over again. And those are the people that you have to really think about because those are the ones that believe in you. And you need to believe in them. And I would say for everybody listening today. Rocky's got a great program, please go to Rocky buckley.com. We'll have a link in there. You can sign up for his course you can send him an email. You can learn more about him out on the internet. He's got videos on YouTube as well. But we will have that link rocking it's been a pleasure having you want to incite personal growth been able to speak with you today about the services that you offer, the advice you provide and the wisdom that you're actually giving to all the people out there who are trying to lift themselves up into something new in their life, something that they want to change. I really appreciate you. Oh, thank

Rocky Buckley
Thank you so much, Greg for having me. It's been a pleasure.

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Podcast 986: How to Be Love(d): Simple Truths for Going Easier on Yourself, Embracing Imperfection & Loving Your Way to a Better Life by Humble the Poet

Returning for this podcast is Canadian-born rapper, spoken-word artist, poet and internationally bestselling author, Kanwer Singh or more known as Humble the Poet. Humble has a new book entitled How to Be Love(d): Simple Truths for Going Easier on Yourself, Embracing Imperfection & Loving Your Way to a Better Life.

Prior to becoming an author, hip-hop artist, speaker, designer, filmmaker, and creative consultant, Humble the Poet was a school teacher. Now, he writes/directs/edits his own music videos, performs regularly as a spoken word artist, works as an influencer with some great brands and speaks to public audience in universities, colleges and organizations about leadership and self development.

Some of Humble’s bestsellers are Unlearn: 101 Simple Truths for a Better Life; and Things No One Else Can Teach Us. And just last December 27, 2022, he released another good to read book entitled How to Be Love(d): Simple Truths for Going Easier on Yourself, Embracing Imperfection & Loving Your Way to a Better Life. This book is a guide to self-love that helps clarify our path inward toward the inherent love and value that is within each of us. This makes us explore simple truths for going easier on ourselves, embracing imperfections and loving our way to a better life.

If you want to know more about Humble and his amazing works, you may click here to visit his website.

I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Humble the Poet. Happy listening!

THE BOOK

Explore simple truths for going easier on yourself, embracing imperfections and loving your way to a better life through insightful stories and down-to-earth advice from artist and international best-selling author, Humble The Poet. With short chapters filled with insight, advice, and personal anecdotes from Humble’s own journey, this book is a guide to self-love that helps clarify your path inward toward the inherent love and value that is within each of us. Throw away old ideas that prevent you from realizing the love you’ve always had within you. Instead of earning more, achieving more, and gaining more attention, clear pathways for love to enter and flourish.

THE AUTHOR

Humble The Poet (Kanwer Singh), is a Canadian-born rapper, spoken-word artist, poet, internationally bestselling author, and former elementary school teacher with a wildly popular blog with over 100,000 monthly readers. He has more than1 Million social-media followers, and his first two releases UNLEARN & THINGS NOBODY CAN TEACH US have become international bestsellers. He has performed at concerts and festivals around the world including Lollapalooza, NH7, and literary festivals in Europe, Asia and North America. Visit him at HumbleThePoet.com.

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.

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Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Los Angeles is Humble the Poet and for my listeners who listen to me regularly, uh, you can go back in my archives, and Humble has done a couple of other podcasts with us. He has many books, this book that we're going to be talking about today is called How to be Love(d). And the subtitle is Simple Truths for Going Easy on Yourself Embracing Imperfection, and Loving Your Way to a Better Life. It's a Hay House book, by the way. So big shout out to Hay House, love them. They're great to us and, and I know that humble was telling me, we spoke and had a wonderful experience getting this author through them humble. I'm gonna let my listeners know a tad bit about you. Before we dive into this interview, is a former school teacher turned creative. What began as resigning spoken word poetry and coffee shops to impress girls evolved into creative adventure that has now spanned 10 years crossing genres mediums and oceans. Now and an author and he's an author of way more than one book, go look for him on Amazon, we'll put a link there, hip hop artists, speaker, designer, filmmaker and creative consultant. He admits he's made a lot of mistakes along the way, like we all do. This is about being vulnerable. Actually being loved is about being vulnerable. And humble is very vulnerable. In this book expresses, you know what's happened in his life and things that he did and things that learn life lessons, since that's how we learn from one another. And I'm happy to share that. so humble, you know, we might as well start out in Oak for my listeners, if you want to learn more about him a home page is shopping shop, he's got a shop, speaking music, his new book, all of his books is community. Just go humblethepoet.com that's h-u-m-b-l-e-t-h-e-p-o-e-t .com. There, you can learn more about Humble. Well, good morning to you Humble.

Humble the Poet
Good morning.

Greg Voisen
Blessings to you. Thank you for being on the show. And I'm gonna dive right in. Because if you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, I just told them a little bit and but really, why you wrote how to be loved. You've had many predecessor books that weren't exactly on love, right? But they've all been on personal growth. In my estimation, you mentioned that this book wasn't a labor of love. But a reminder that it's a labor to love. I thought that was an interesting way to put it. So what is the labor to love?

Humble the Poet
Um, I think a lot of popular ideas around love is that love is this prize that we have to win and gain from other people. Or earn or be worthy enough of and it's just a reminder that love is the verb. You know, love to service. Love is sacrifice. And love is the work, the work that we do, you know, can be inspired through love. And I remember doing that

Greg Voisen
podcast with rom das on love and devotion. And I guess my question for you would be around the word devotion because I, during that podcast with him. It was quite enlightening, like the ones I've had with you. But those two words are used frequently together. love and devotion. What would you have to say about devotion?

Humble the Poet
I think when it comes to devotion, you know, you know, the first word that springs to my mind is commitment. And, you know, a friend of mine in which I included in the book said, you know, honor your commitments, not your feelings. And I think the repetitious element, the ritual element of honoring a commitment, you know, and understanding that we are only entitled to the labor, not the outcome of the labor. I think so often we think we're destination oriented, when we should really be focused on the journey. So for me, love is that journey. And it's a committed journey. And that, to me is devotion. And understanding that, you know, our relationship is not only with other individuals with ourselves and with the world around us, but it's also with love and having an unconditional love towards the idea of love. And staying committed. You know, irrespective of how, you know, Rocky the seas are as we sell them.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, humble but one of the things As the chair I was listening to podcast just a few days ago with James Timon, Simon. And you know, he talks about universal non duality. And for a lot of listeners, they understand they've heard duality before. But you speak with our listeners about the dualistic nature of thinking, you state that loves the experience, beyond duality, totally agree with you. But how can we move to this non dualistic thinking that is unified as pure love?

Humble the Poet
I think when we're younger, and our brains are still developing, it's very easy to fall into the trap of dualistic thinking things are right things are wrong, things are black things are white. And as we're young, it's, you know, as I said, our brains haven't fully developed to kind of see the complexities of life. And the challenge with that is we make a lot of really important decisions of who we're going to be and establish certain habits, what directions we're going to go to when we're young, without updating our software without updating those policies, as we get older, as our brains develop some more and as we're able to see a lot of the gray in between the black and the white. So for me, getting out of dualistic thinking is revisiting some of our old patterns, revisiting some of our old policies when it comes to how we handle life. And also approaching life with much more curiosity than judgment. You know, instead of looking at life, as this is, oh, it rained outside, this is good, or this is bad. Understanding that there's everything else in between as well. And opening up our mind to seeing the complexities of life and understanding that our judgments are what are denying us love from any moment or any situation. And so either reserve those judgments or surrender those judgments to allow things to be as they are. As I'm taking a deeper dive into surrender, it's recognizing that things are happening, irrespective of us, and they're not happening to us, you know, they're either happening for us, or they're just happening. And we need to learn to realize that these things are as inconsequential to us as they've always been. The analogy I heard was, you know, we don't have an opinion on Saturn having rings. So let's not have an opinion on anything else. Life is happening. Things are things are developing. And oftentimes the reason we have these opinions and get into dualistic thinking is that it goes back and connects with some previous trauma that we've experienced in our life.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and you know, one of the things that we you talk about, but at the same time, we know it's ego, and that's what splits people is just this ego speak, if you would a minute about the actual ego when you're younger, and it says, Would you rather be in love? Or would you rather be right? I heard that said many times. And what happens is, I'm not just saying younger people, older people, too, unless they've reprogrammed, right? They're going to have this issue associated with the ego. And I kind of say, hey, the ego isn't going away. But you have to learn how to live with it. You have to learn how to I'm not gonna even say control it because that's not the right word. You have to coexist with this because it isn't going away. Yeah, I view. Yeah, I

Humble the Poet
view ego as a force of nature the same way I view gravity. And, you know, it's only until we understand gravity, can we learn to fly. And I think it's the same thing where our egos can serve as both fortresses to protect us, but also prisons to keep us trapped in. And I think what's really important is Love is the phenomenon, you know, that we've all experienced, that melts the ego, when you have love for someone else, you know, where you begin, and they end, you know, starts to blur. And I think that's really important. And especially when we make choices, what we have to realize is when we're feeding our ego, we're taking ourselves almost in the exact opposite direction of love. So that earlier comment you brought up so do you want to be in love? Or do you want to be right, proving that we're right, in an argument, establishing our autonomy, establishing our power, establishing our control, you know, these are all languages of the ego. And the thing is the ego, ego and love will hold hands. You know, love is forgiveness, love is service. Love is kindness, love is sacrifice, and all of these are going to melt the ego. So it's really a question of what direction we want to head and what experiences we want to have.

Greg Voisen
So true, so true. And you know, you stated that love is a path and not a destination that frequently we're looking for love as if it was a secret in a secret hiding place someplace. You know, we're looking for love people say that all the time. I mean, look for web, speak with the listeners about Robert Holden, the PhD term destination addiction and how It applies to love. I thought that was pretty fascinating. You pull this term, destination addiction. And how does this apply to love in your estimation.

Humble the Poet
So I think, especially in Western society, we think very linearly. So we think in terms of life having this beginning, middle and end, and we have to get to something, there's got to be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. And I think destination addiction is just that this thinking that there's a prize at the end of some sort of journey, not realizing that the journey is the prize, you know, the pot of the rainbow is the pot of gold. And I come from Eastern philosophy, which is much more cyclical. So it's less about trying to get to any specific destination, and instead, just understanding where you are in a constantly repeating cycle. And I think that's really important. Because if we always focus on the end goal, then we lack appreciation for where we are. And it's really important to understand that, again, we're only entitled to the labor, we're only entitled to the journey where the journey takes us is not as important as what the journey does to us, and who we become through going through this journey. So again, we watch movies, movies, have, you know, endings are happily ever after a lot of this contributes to our addiction to having this ending this happy ending this moment, but that's not what life is, you know, you graduate high school, yeah, you finished high school, but you immediately go back to the bottom of the barrel, and start a whole new experience in college or at your job. And now you're at the bottom and you climb your way up to the top. And then you're gonna start at the bottom somewhere else. And I think is really important that we start to abandon this idea of these linear journeys that have endings and destinations. And instead, realize that, you know, we're in cycles, we have our, we have seasons, we have our winter, fall, spring and summer. And when we look at life in that cyclical manner, we'll be able to be less judgmental of the things that are happening. And as well embrace it, embrace the presence as it is.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, as I was watching a Netflix documentary, by I think it was Jonah Hill, with Phil Stutz. And one of the things that they talked about in that documentary was this, this concept of pain, uncertainty and work. Three things that they spoke about, and what you're talking about on the journey is really the work we're doing the uncertainty there is that pain that there is right? The Buddha said, there's pain, and then there's the end or there's suffering, and then there's the end of suffering, the end of suffering, is that state of our mind that we shift to really recognize that as the fact, would you want to comment about the part about uncertainty, about pain and about work along the way, you were talking about this as the journey, right? Not the destination. It's always about the journey, personal growth is about the journey.

Humble the Poet
Yeah, completely. And I think as well as, as a society, you know, we are constantly sold more and more conveniences, and more and more pleasures. And they are addicting. They're, you know, they're addicting to have someone bring your groceries to your front door, cook your meals, deliver your booze or whatever it may be. And you know, everything at the, in the palm of your hand. Now, the challenge with that is it impacts our resilience, and when it impacts our resilience, that puts us into a certain world of Malic melancholy in itself. And I think what we have to do is reestablish our relationship with discomfort, you know, we, if you look at the emotion, we'll have the types of emotions, humans can feel, you know, over 70% of them would be deemed negative, but that is how we survived. That's how we thrive. You know, you don't learn much when you're happy, you know, you learn to the unpleasant emotions. You don't have, it's not a good day at the gym, if it was easy. You know, you need a challenge, you need resistance. And I think what we need to realize is leaning into and going voluntarily into the unfamiliar, the uncomfortable, even the painful, is the recipe of growth and the recipe of progress and progress is really important for us to establish a stronger relationship with ourselves. And so often what we don't realize is the goal here isn't comfort, the goal should be peace, and peace isn't having everything pieces, not wanting anything. And I think that's a really important idea that we have to understand. And the big challenge is we we've grown up in a society which is like buy stuff, be happy, buy all this stuff, and that's gonna make you happy, the more you have, the better you are. And it certainly tells us that we are not enough as is, you know, as if there's well that's

Greg Voisen
that's what the merchandisers are all appealing to right you know, when they're selling all their goods, and we live in a western society, not an Eastern society. And in that Western society, it's been propagated by an economy that says you have to have more. And that economy is being driven. And people are buying into that where I agree with you. Really less is more. It's, it's like, unpack your bags, right? lighten the load. You know, I remember reading one time, and I'm sure you can relate to this, that the average American, you know, when you saw these, what do you call them? The temporary places where people store their shit, I'm just gonna say that, right? That that we have 1000s and 1000s of that people have taken their shit out of their garage and moved into one of those storage units because they didn't have enough room in their garage to store the shit. And then they never go look at it. They never do anything with it. It just sits there storage. And so you keep thinking to yourself, it's like, wow, kind of lighten the load. It's it seems like it's a lot to carry around. And it's heavy. And, and so on this theme of love. You know, you speak with us about Aubrey Marcus, he actually is my son's coach. So I know him well. And how he differentiates big l love and small l love. He states that small love gives us pleasure. And B big l love gives us peace, just like you just said a second ago. How do you recommend or recognize the differences between the two? For our listeners?

Humble the Poet
I think it's important for us to, you know, create an anchor of peace. I think, you know, the first thing we have to do is you know, go back and remember what it feels like to have peace. I think so often. Pleasure gets so overwhelming that we don't realize that we're not even enhancing our lives with pleasure anymore. We're medicating our lack of peace. So I think the important thing is to understand what brings you peace, or what are some of these nutritious experiences that you've had or relationships that you had. And for those who have had healthy family dynamics, I think that's a great place to start. When you think for big for big l love. Thinking about activities that you do that you don't care if anybody's watching that brings you joy, and peace. I think those are important. And also we're doing it gives you a level of satisfaction versus when you do the small l love stuff chasing pleasure. Pleasure is extremely temporary, it's delicious. But there's no nutritional value to it. And as you chase more. And I kind of think about healthy eating versus fast food. And I think when no one is a lot more convenient and quick and cheap. But at the end of the day you do it long enough, is going to eventually bite you in the ass. So I think it's really important think of it from that standpoint. And I think as well as going back to the ego, you know, the small l stuff is what scratches and the itch of the ego, even though it's an insatiable edge. Yeah, versus, you know, the big l love. There's another quote in the book that says, you know, small l love, you know, makes you feel smaller and small worlds big l love makes you feel bigger in a big world. Does your world feel bigger? Do you feel bigger in that big world, I think does a really good measurement right there for the types of activities. And people we should be around.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it happened yesterday, I actually, this is the time of year where I actually distributed a lot of my gift cards to the homeless. So I'm out on the streets with the homeless, giving them the gift cards and doing my little interviews with them and so on. And, you know, you leave an incident like that, knowing that you're helping somebody to actually maybe get a meal and get something to eat, do something, it has so much more significance than chasing down. Pardon me for saying this. But you know, another Christmas present somewhere, right? Because you're now reverse the gift. You know, you got this gift of giving this gift of giving and the receipt is to see the faces of the people and understand what's going on and emotionally understand how somebody actually gets there, you know, actually ends up out on the street. And, you know, just that is what I call the Big L That's the way to be at peace because I left there with so much peace. You know, in your chapter on love attracts love. You speak about anxiety, worry and uncertainty about love. And we've all been there. You know, it's like people that get jealous. They, you know, it's a pretty common thing. I think more among younger people than it is older people but certainly younger people. How do we get rid of the unwanted emotions and realize the love in our life regardless of whether or not somebody accepts us or not? In other words, hey, you got rejected. I've seen people do some pretty crazy things when they get rejected. And what you got to realize is that you're the only one responsible nobody out there or is responsible for giving you love. Nobody outside of you is responsible for giving. But that's a hard one. Because people look at love as togetherness there saying, oh, well, I'm supposed to be together with this person, you know, that was the love of my life that I lost or whatever. And I get there's tons of emotional pain and pain at breakup. But how do you help people get rid of these unwanted emotions, I'm gonna call them emotions. Because then they're just sad, and they're lonely, and they're depressed, and they're angry. And, you know, you can name every emotion that comes up. But that's what happens.

Humble the Poet
I think the important thing is to, you know, not label them as unwanted, you know, emotions are all essential and necessary. And as I said, the vast majority of emotions a human can feel, or would lean on negative side. So I think other than happiness, and surprise and surprise in itself can go both ways. All the other emotions on a human emotion, we all would lean negative, because that is what allows us to survive. And I would also, caution, listeners understand this, most of the things that we chase, thinking is Love isn't love. You know, rejection just means it's, you know, that's the opposite of acceptance and validation, acceptance, and validation, on love. That's acceptance, and validation, these are facsimiles of love, power control, attraction, attention, status, success, you know, desire, all of these things have been related to love, but they're not love, you know, love loves what is existing, when all these emotions are gone, all the experiences are gone. Now, you know, in these situations, you know, you always have a relationship with yourself and a relationship with somebody else, if I reach out to somebody, and I want to connect with them, and I'm rejected, you know, I can view their rejection, as you know, and I can take it extremely personal. Or I can, you know, view this as well as a moment of self-respect, where, you know, I put myself out there and I took a risk. You know, nobody is promised to be accepted by everybody. You know, even we don't accept everybody or love, or like everybody in that capacity. And I think it's really important to understand that that these emotions aren't. You know, things that we need to avoid. If you work in sales, the first thing they're going to get you to do is learn to have a healthier relationship with rejection. Understanding that rejection isn't about you. It's the other person's story. You know, somebody, somebody tries to sell me a dishwasher, and I don't need a dishwasher. There's no reflection on them or their dishwasher. That's not where I am in my life. And

Greg Voisen
but in a non-dualistic world. Let's go back and visit that for a second. We're talking about these dualities now again, but in that non dualistic world, humble, what is supposed to happen. Okay, is this purity of unconditional love? We are all one, we're together. So when you look at them out over the masses, you know, I was just, I was just flying an air, I am in airport terminals, and I'm in waiting in queues, and I'm all over. I mean, you look out at the people. And you really look at it with unconditional love that were, hey, we're all in this together trying to get on this plane. There's no reason to get upset. There's no reason to be in a hurry. There's no reason to do any of that. Yet. There's this something inside of you frequently, that spins up and says, and I gotta go to the front of the line now and you get what I'm talking about. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Because there is no peace in that. No, no, there is no peace in that just period there isn't. There's anxiety in it. There's worry, there's frustration. How do you tell people or at least inform them or because you know, you're looking right now as you know, in your philosophy, to find a world of peace. I see your sign behind you freedom as having nothing to lose, you know, but everybody thinks they're gonna lose something if they don't get in line at front of somebody. Okay, because we're gonna run out of something. And it's this scarcity mentality. There aren't enough people, there isn't enough of this. There's not enough of anything. So if I don't hurry up and get my enough, then I'm gonna run out.

Humble the Poet
And I think it's about acknowledging these apparatuses and systems that have been developed for that. You know, I think it's important to understand that a lot of causes of our disease is believing that we live in a universe of one. And I don't mean that in a positive sense. I mean, the sense that we are the center of the unit First and nothing else matters. And then you go to the airport. And not only, you know, do you have this urge to be at the front of the line, they'll also say, well, if you're in a certain socio economic standpoint, you can afford to get to the front of the line. You know, it doesn't it's not a meritocracy, who got there first, it's about who can pay the most. And, you know, in that decides, if you get to have a meal on your flight that gets set aside, if you're, if your chair has a little bit more cushioning that decides how many people you have to coexist with. And I think it's a really interesting standpoint, because it goes back to how the society is being developed, and how unnatural that is, you know, because what that does is that encourages us to become almost robotic, in the sense of our productivity, we got to be on like, we're computers, all of a sudden, when no other animal on earth, you know, operates in that capacity, they feed themselves and Sprint's build feed themselves in endless productivity. And I think it's really important that we recognize that and a lot of these things that we're talking about are going to feed the ego, you know, this, who are these people? Why are they encroaching in my space, and not just helping us understand that listen, we are made of the exact from a scientific standpoint, we are made up of the exact same atoms, as the stars in the sun, and everything else on Earth, we are, we are no different, we are no more special. And you know, there's a beauty in that, because that makes us nothing. And everything, our egos are what separates the drop that we are from the rest of the ocean. And these rare moments where we can experience that that membrane melting, that separation, melting, that border melting between us and others, is some of the most beautiful feelings we've ever had. And I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying I haven't been in a hectic, crowded airport. And you know, had my emotions get the best to me. Yeah, exactly. And also, if you want, you know, get perspective there, there isn't an airport in the United States, that is more hectic than an airport and a third world country, you know, or anywhere else where the population is 10x. You know, and there's no such thing as a lie. You know, lines don't exist in queues don't exist and all of that stuff. And it becomes a perspective really, oh, I miss the fact that at least, you know, at the terminal here, they have separated the lines for group 1234. Over there. It's just a crowd, and it's just elbows. And I think I think it's important in that context, but also remembering that, you know, peace is internal. Yeah,

Greg Voisen
it is an inside job, you know, it's an inside. And the thing is, I recognize that if we just breathe. And we take in, you know, there I, I go to meditation retreats in the orcas islands. And there's a, there's a, there's one called Tong Lin meditation, which is breathing in the pain and suffering that you sense people are having, we'll call it Ukraine, call it Russia, call it wherever. And then you breathe out the love and compassion, right. And it's almost like, I'm not recommending that people go do that meditation. What I'm saying is when you think about the process of what you're putting your mind into, even if you were at an airport, and you just took a moment, to close your eyes, I mean, a minute, and breathe and put yourself into a new state of I'm not rushed, there is enough, my seat will be there. I'm going to be okay. It does shift you it really does speak with the listeners about being enough we just talked about and not having to become someone else to be loved. Right? So here, somebody here, this is important. It's like, oh, I gotta do something different than who I am so that I can be loved by that other person outside of myself, right? How do we just love ourselves unconditionally? So we can be love, be loved by another?

Humble the Poet
Yeah, I think as I said, I think there's this idea of enoughness is just should not apply. You know, I think we need to abandon this idea of telling people there enough to just it's not a measurement that should apply to people. Enough as measuring recipes and your gas tank, as measuring, you can't be enough of a person, you can't be enough of a tree, you can't be enough of a flower, you can't be enough of a puppy. There's none of this enough and if you know needs to be abandoned, and anything that that comes from consumeristic culture as well. Were you meant to feel like you are inadequate as you are and you need to have some more shit to feel like you're something else. So I think that's really important. And you know,

Greg Voisen
that excuse me, doesn't it also come from other people who've said you're not enough? I mean, hey, you didn't get straight A's. Why didn't you get straight A's? You know, you're going to school, college, whatever. In other words, the psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, the people can actually lay gone to other people, that they're not enough. You didn't do a good job? Yeah, but yeah, all right.

Humble the Poet
But I think what that is, is that's the prisoners graduating to the guards. You know. So what they're doing is they're still taking these concepts. And you know, and again, outcomes could be enough, you know that I get the grades to get into Harvard, you know, that I, you know, the outcomes can be enough. But again, those aren't a reflection of an individual.

Greg Voisen
But you also said earlier about reprogramming ourselves. I mean, what we've been, look if, if my hardware, I'm sorry, if my software that I put into the computer doesn't care, and it's like, my software says, I'm not enough, I'm not enough, you've got to reprogram that. Right, it has to be new software that says, You're enough, you're now here. Now, the way you are,

Humble the Poet
I'm gonna go a step further and say, we may also have to make peace with the fact that some of this software is not going anywhere. Despite our efforts, I know, it's like, you buy a phone, it already comes preloaded with software, and there's nothing you can do to get it off, you can't delete the calculator app on your phone, you can't do any of these things. And I think a lot of these a lot of this software served vital purposes in our survival, the need for acceptance mattered a lot when we were in small village communities. Paranoia meant mattered a lot when we were susceptible to different predators. And none of these have any relevance or value in these large societies that we live in. And I think oftentimes, that's where a lot of these challenges come from, where you know, your enoughness didn't matter as much outside of what your community thought of you in terms of you contributing to the community when you were in a village of 100 people. And if you weren't carrying your weight or following the rules, you might have been shunned and ostracized, and that shunning and ostracism could have led to, you know, your actual death. Now, I feel like those fears remain. And I think the step number one, and I think this is this is where, you know, this is my belief on it. Step number one is acknowledging, okay, I have these limiting beliefs. They may be etched, or tattooed into my DNA, the same way software is built into a phone. Step one is to be aware of it. And step one is not to instantly believe it. And understand that for 1000s and 1000s of years and hundreds of generations, this served us, but now in modern society, it's actually not, you know, it's a, it's not serving us. And I think this first step to the reprogramming and again, I don't know if it can be completely a reprogram, or at least I haven't witnessed an individual with a complete reprogram of it, is to acknowledge it, and then be like, Okay, I can feel these things. I can think these things, but I want to believe these things, you know, I am, I am the soul within, you know, witnessing this, and I'm witnessing the world around me, I am experiencing emotions, and I'm experiencing thoughts. But none of these are me. And I think that's a really important thing to take knowledge from that standpoint, especially when it comes to this enoughness. And also just a reminder of the people you love, genuinely that you love that fill your heart, when you think of them, you could probably write a list of all their imperfections or their flaws. And none of those flaws or imperfections disqualify them from your love. And there's also true, yeah, it's true. Also, little babies that you've held for the first time that have filled you up with love, you've had no interactions with this child, you have no idea what their personality is. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't require you don't, you don't need five years with them, to establish a relationship to love them. love, the love has always existed, you know, the pathways are being created between us. It's just the older we get in the way our society is framed for its own economic gain. We feel like we have to be or do or accomplish something, to gain this love, when really that's just giving us a whole bunch of ego stuff that's really going taking us further away from love. Whereas I said, Love is how do you love yourself, go easy on yourself, you know, embrace what is considered imperfect, you know, you're able to do that with everybody else. I mentioned Beyonce video on YouTube where she falls off stage and like, watch that and see if it gives you a negative impression of her it won't. That the only way to connect with people is to be vulnerable. The only way to be vulnerable is to not be perfect. If somebody was perfect, they will be incapable of vulnerability because they have nothing to be vulnerable about. So let's embrace our imperfections. Be vulnerable, because that is the only way to establish meaningful connection with other people and cut through this membrane of ego and allows you to become more than

Greg Voisen
it does when you are aware that you are not perfect. Allow you to open up to receive more love. Because if you are playing I am Mr. Perfect or Mrs. Perfect your expectations of what should be because you know you've got a lot of attachment to that perfection. And I know when people play that perfection game, it often makes them miserable. completely miserable. Okay, I've seen it too many times. Now, humbly, you grew up in the shake faith? How's this influenced you? And how can you coexist with the ego so that we have peace? And that we kind of want to say I'm not gonna say serve the ego. But it's an interesting place. I've met many people from your philosophy, your religion, and you are very peaceful people. You mentioned in the book that it's one of the largest religions. And I thought Muslim was the largest one.

Humble the Poet
Well, I mean, it's top five. So I think you know, I think I think Hinduism is probably number one, Islam is number two, Christianity is probably number three, I'm not sure what number four is, but I think we're number five. I know there's, there's more people of Sikh heritage and there are of Jewish heritage. So there's more of us in Jewish folks, just to put a perspective in terms of numbers. But at the same time, we represent 2% of India. So you know, as many 10s of millions of us exist, you know, we're still only a drop is a drop in the pond of India, because their population is so large. Yes. I think the beauty of Sikh philosophy and I love referring to it as a philosophy more than a religion, because I like it and not sounding indoctrination, like indoctrination. But it talks about your calm called Low Mohan calm, which is your lust, your greed, your anger, your attachment, and your ego. And it views them as five warriors that can't be defeated, but you can that you can work with. And another great analogy with the ego is, you know, the, the door, you know, we've heard the mustard seed analogy of the mustard seed size door to heaven, the ego would be the elephant that you're sitting on. And you know, the only way to get through the door is to get off the elephant. And recognizing that look, this is if I want peace, my lust, my greed, my anger, my attachments, in my ego are the five things that I'm probably experiencing when I'm not at peace. And I think that awareness. Yeah. And I think that awareness is just really important to start off, because I think so often, right now we're like, Oh, I'm not at peace, maybe I need a drink, maybe I need a bigger house, maybe I need more followers, maybe I need a blue checkmark on my social media, we think we have to attain, attain, attain, and I think for me, I was very fortunate to grow up in a heritage that was like, No, you have to let go, here thinking is to let go, you have to let go of these desires. It's, it's not the, the unfulfilled desire is to desire that is the issue, right? And let's address the desire. And also, let's channel back to moments of your life when you didn't have these desires. So you already knew what that piece was. And so I think for me, it's really important from that standpoint, and also in the writings and the hymns. You know, it's very universal in the context of human nature. And one of my favorite lines is, if you want to play the game of love, come with your head in your palm. And it's a very it's a very poignant image, because in our history, you know, the 10s Guru asked for physical heads at one point of his followers, you will then need heads and knees and your Give me your head. And he took, he took five gentlemen into a tent and gave the impression that he beheaded them, he came out, he called for one, he got a volunteer, went into a tent, came back out with blood on the sword, and said, I needed another one. And another volunteer came in, he did this for five, five volunteers. And people started thinking that he was just going to cut off everybody's head. And then when he opened the tent, all five of them were dressed in new clothes, nobody had been beheaded. But you know, and they became his beloved ones. And the analogy is the sacrifice, love, the sacrifice. It doesn't feel like sacrifice when you're when it's authentic love, but love is to give up everything you know, freedom was having nothing to lose. You're free, when there is nothing left you can everything give everything away and not acquiring things. And that quote, and so actually have it tattooed on my neck. That was a gift from somebody who saw the tattoo on my neck. And I heard that from a survivor of the Holocaust. And she said, Listen, you're free, the moment you decide to be free, you don't have to achieve a freedom from anything. The moment you

Greg Voisen
lose. Well, you bring up an important point. I've had this discussion most recently, you know, I think it was Dr. Larry Dossey, spoken, speaking before a group. And he said the way the most important thing you have to remember is you have agency over yourself or free choice. Yes, and, and whether it's your health, or your spirituality, it's all about your choice. It's the choices you're going to make. And you have freewill. You have agency to lose weight, you have agency, to be a good person, you have agency to do almost anything that you want to do. And I think that's really important. And that's what you're really saying. And I want to remind our listeners, how to be loved as the book we're going to put a link to Amazon for this. This is Humble the Poet were speaking with you can go to humble the poet.com. In our wrap up question here humble. This book is filled with great wisdom advice. It's got stories, stories about you your own personal life. You've compiled over 62 short, concise chapters regarding love. What advice would you like to leave the listeners with about how to cultivate self-love, and then love others unconditionally.

Humble the Poet
I would say prioritize your self-respect over your self-esteem. self-respect is how you view yourself Self Esteem is how other people view you. So often we deny ourselves love and self-respect, in the name of being likeable and accepted by others. Self-love is saying no self-love is showing your teeth self-love is standing up for yourself. Self-love is establishing boundaries. All of these things can be scary because they can make you appear unlikable. It is more important for you to like yourself and love yourself than it is for you to gain acceptance from other people. Self-love is also going easy on yourself, you have never met a critic more harsh than yourself. Don't fight that critic. Embrace that critic with love. And as a quote in the book, don't beat yourself up for beating yourself up. And I think when we have this healthier relationship with those inner voices that we have that are critical, and instead of being combative towards them, that is a great definition of going easy on ourselves. And when we go easy on ourselves, we can go easier on other people. And when we go easier on other people, we will encourage them to be more vulnerable with us because they won't feel as afraid of being judged by us. How we judge ourselves is the measurement of how we judge other people, what we don't like in ourselves as often what we don't like and other people. So this all begins with ourselves. Embrace yourself. Accept yourself as you are. If anything goes the other way. Ask yourself what is my favorite part of my body? What is my favorite part of my personality? Celebrate yourself as is you can have progress. You can set intentions in directions to improve your quality of life, improve your health. But don't tell yourself that you're not enough as you are, you are enough. There's no enoughness again, as you are, there is no enoughness. But again, you want progress, you want to eat healthier, and you want to lose some weight, by all means do all of that stuff. And then celebrate the progress but also celebrate where you are and who you are. And honor who you are. Because I think that's really important. And to help your relationship you have with yourself that healthier relationship you can have with everybody else around you.

Greg Voisen
Well, thank you for that. I mean, it's it doesn't matter what time of the year that message is valid, but in particularly this time of the year, because I think people get a little amped up and ramped up. And you know, it's the holiday times and they've got to make things perfect, and they got to get everybody a gift and they got to go crazy. All you do is go out on the streets and you can see. And again, that's part of this Western culture, which is commercialized something called Christmas, you know? And, and I want to say Namaste to you. Thank you for being on this podcast, and embracing our listeners with some great advice and wisdom. You did a great job and I'm going to encourage my listeners again. Here's the book. It's a Hay House book, How To be loved. Subtitle simple truths for going easier on yourself, which he just said, embracing imperfection and loving your way to a better life. Six due to short little chapters that provide just wonderful advice and stories about that, humble Blessings to you this holiday and season, enjoy it. And I look forward to meeting up with you in Los Angeles when I'm up there.

Humble the Poet
Thank you so much. I appreciate you sharing me with your audience and I appreciate the important work that you're doing.

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Podcast 985: Influential Leadership Blueprint: Upside Thinking with Lisa Marie Platske

My guest for this podcast is an award-winning leadership expert in human behavior, business coach, and the founder of Upside Thinking, Lisa Marie Platske.

Her company’s mission is to transform lives through leadership and since its opening in 2005, Lisa has taught and mentored over 100,000 leaders using my 7 Pillars of Leadership through one-on-one coaching, workshops, live events, online classes, blog posts, and media interviews.

In all that she does, Lisa’s commitment is excellence. She customizes her approach in coaching, mentoring, and consulting leaders in:

★ Leadership: How to be a courageous leader worth following – without changing who you are

★ Positioning: How to recognize what to say, whom to say it to, and why to say it to increase your influence and income

★ Connection: How to build powerful partnerships that open doors to bigger opportunities with ease

★ Speaking: How to confidently get your message when you’re on stage and off so you are recognized and rewarded for what you’re called to do

★ Branding: How to package your talents, gifts, and abilities in a way that allows you to be seen as an expert

★ Marketing: How to crystallize what you’re meant to do – with the exact steps on how to do it

If you’re interested and want to know more about Lisa and her amazing works, you may click here to visit her company website. You may also download her leadership blueprint for free by clicking here.

I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Lisa Marie Platske. Happy listening!

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.

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Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, host of Inside Personal Growth. And on the other end of the camera is Lisa Marie Platske. And Lisa Marie is joining us from Kentucky. She was telling me she had her big heavy sweater on because it's like 28 degrees today. How are you, Lisa?

Lisa Marie Platske
I'm, well I'm well, I'm warm in my sweater, which is a good thing.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah, it is a good thing. It's just like having a down comforter at night on you. It's really nice. Those are the best. What I'm going to do is I'm going to tell my listeners a little bit about you. She's an award winning leadership expert. She's received accolades from the United States Small Business Administration and the International Lions for women recognized as one of the top 100 women making a difference in the world. She left the federal law enforcement career to be a CEO of this international leadership development company upside thinking. she delivers presentations worldwide sharing research on leadership, and how vulnerability and forgiveness are critical to exceptional leadership, a member of the Forbes coaching Council, international bestselling author of seven books and regular contributor to forbes.com, she coaches leaders around the globe to make a bigger and more positive impact on the planet. And when she's not travel, traveling, she's taking walks in the woods, maybe not this time of the year with her husband, Jim, on their farm in central Kentucky. Well, again, a pleasure having you on and we're going to be speaking about your influential leadership blueprint which I needed, let my listeners now it will be downloadable for no cost, it's got a value of almost $200. So I'm going to encourage everybody to go to the link that we're going to provide. Because that's what we're going to be speaking about as much as she's authored many books, and you can type her into Amazon, and you can look up all those books, she really believes in this. It's a kind of a very quick kind of tool people can do to kind of a self-diagnosis. And find, as we were saying, before coming on the air, some silence and some peace with inside themselves, because that's what you do. So Lisa, I think it'd be good if you told the listeners a little about yourself, your journey and finding purpose and meaning in your own life and then becoming a leadership coach, that's really helping. And it's not only women, but it's a big percentage of women finding meaning and purpose in their life as well.

Lisa Marie Platske
Thank you, thanks so much, Greg, and I, I you know, I, I appreciate you using those words, you know, the, the solace, and I feel like that's part of the journey for me I grew up in, in Allentown, Pennsylvania was the by single mom, who I, you know, I, my sister and I, just the three were, you know, we're like three months to tears and spent time together. And, you know, it was a, a journey where there was not a lot of expectation, I guess you could say, you know, the only time that you know, coaching was talked about or leadership was talking talked about, was in in terms of my one of my sister sports programs, so not something that I had a background on, and came to the coaching world, from federal law enforcement, and not also at a non-typical, a non-typical journey, and loved you know, loved that, that experience that actually brought me to where I to where I am, and because of my mom and wanting, you know, watching her trade in so many pieces of her dream to be able to take care of us. There is this desire for me and why the influential leadership blueprint so important, is because everyone has the ability to have influence somebody to make a difference, to have something that's theirs to do. And that's what I'm hoping that this this actually provides.

Greg Voisen
Well, I'm sure it will. And again, we're going to mention it several times, but the blueprint is no cost to anybody. And you know, you mentioned in the upside leadership journey that you encourage your clients to be brave, brave enough to go for who they have been and brave enough to transform themselves. Have you as you said, we're a federal law enforcement officer and appears in Newark, New Jersey, the five boroughs in New York City, what happened in your life to transform you and improve your skills and emotional intelligence to become what I would consider more of a compassionate leader. I know law enforcement is can be very rough, sometimes it can be very rigid it can be, you know, and you look at a female in this, especially to it's even quite unusual. And you know, you carry these biases. And these biases are really tough to get rid of, and they become ingrained. And part of it. I know you I know, right now, you're probably busy as can be. And if you're aren't be surprised, working in the law enforcement arena, because it needs more and more reform today than ever before. You know, if we look at all the things that have happened, you know, the guy that was just convicted for shooting, the lady coming in her house in Texas, you know, there's story after story after story after story about law enforcement people. And I don't I've never been, but I must think that much of this is brought on either by fear, right? Because in certain circumstances, you know, they literally are put up against their own fears. What would you say to the average person listening today is not even in law enforcement, but at the same time, you know, to have more vulnerability, more authenticity? You know, Brene Brown, I'm a big listener of hers, I'm sure you are as well. But you know, to be a good leader, you need to be that. But in law enforcement, we don't always see that.

Lisa Marie Platske
Yeah, you know, it's really, really interesting, because law enforcement was not I didn't expect what was what happened in law enforcement to happen for me, and the guys at one point did not want to work with me, they were not, you know, they weren't thrilled to have me there. And so, you know, when you talk about what I did to be able to transform, I went into leadership assessments, I went into looking at, what is it for me to be able to transform myself into a leader that would be worth following. And when I took these assessments, Greg, the results were not like, it was, you know, I thought, oh, you know, they're going to, I'm going to not pass these, but I'm going to excel at this. And what ended up happening was I scored a zero, I scored a zero at an interpersonal skills assessment, and then that assessment, it had me really reflect on. Okay, so Lisa, you might be smart and tough, you might be strong and right, but you're going to be alone in debt, if you don't figure out how to connect with people, if you don't figure out how to transform yourself into something else. Because the guys didn't want to work with me, they didn't see me as somebody who was a contribution, they didn't see me as somebody who had the ability to make a difference. And so it didn't really matter what I thought about me, to be able to, to be the kind of leader that was going to make a difference there. I had to, to learn how to connect, I had to learn how to operate in that culture. And when you ask about, you know, this idea of vulnerability is an applied scientist. That's what I say, you know, applied scientist who likes etymology, I love the history of words. And what I learned about myself is that I'm very committed to Mercy. And then if Mercy comes before Justice, then it works out really well for me. And that's how I got involved in the forgiveness work. Because in the beginning, I wasn't a compassionate leader. You know, it was very, very black and white, it was very much. You know, this is the way to do things. This is the right way to do things. And as you speak about, you know, law enforcement, what happened as I recognize that, that created more walls, and didn't allow me to be able to make a difference. I had to learn more about me and get more vulnerable with me first, in order and forgive the things in me in order for me to then transform and be able to see what was good in others. And so, you know, for all the things that you share, you know, you're right, there's an element that's almost unreasonable. In law enforcement and that act, asking officers that are human to be superhuman, or to not give them tools and techniques to be able to better understand human behavior to better be in the grips of vulnerability and connection, because it's just seen as something that is, is, is not necessary, you know, in, in confrontation. And quite frankly, it's the thing that actually made a huge difference for me when I made that transformation for myself in opening doors, in law enforcement and in the business community.

Greg Voisen
Well, one of the things is self-compassion, you know, and I'm not certain that if people, if you looked at the trajectory of somebody going in law enforcement, that self-compassion is really what they were brought up with. You know, I don't know all the profiles, you do better than I. And it doesn't matter if it's a woman or a man. But you know, anybody kind of going into law enforcement or going into the military or more, their profile, their kind of profiled, right, it's like, they gotta be tough, they gotta be resilient. They've got to have this arena. Well, you know, this time of year, though, what you see happening is philanthropist throughout the country. And you can see stories more than one where the law enforcement officers are handed $100 bills to go out and just give them to anybody that they know, on their beat. Right? And it really always surprises me, because, you know, they'll take these video cameras and video, the people. And they're just so surprised that a law enforcement person is going to come up and give them a gift. Because they're always thinking, Oh, my God, I'm in trouble. Right? The first is, oh, you know, and the surprises on their faces. When you see that is, is amazing. What you I said that you're a compassionate leader, and that your emotional intelligence is extremely high. And I know we know all the studies that have done, what advice would you give about vulnerability, being a compassionate to yourself, being a compassionate leader with others, having a high degree of understanding and listening skills, because it requires a lot of listening, if you're going to be a good leader, and then nurturing the relationships necessary in that nurturing element, because it's, it's a lot of times, you know, that's about how you gain trust. And I'm really interested in knowing how do you approach getting a high degree of trust,

utilizing these elements? You are,

Lisa Marie Platske
you are so spot on trust is trust is that key component, once somebody trusts you, they're willing to share just about anything with you. And if they don't, there's very, there's very little that you're going to be able to open to do to be able to open a door that needs to be opened. And I feel that that served me really well. And it goes back to me to the realization that every single person wants to be valued, appreciated and loved. Everybody wants the same three things. And nobody wakes up in the morning and says, I hope today's the day I get it wrong, I hope today's the day that it doesn't work out for me, I hope today's the day that I fail, like that just doesn't happen. And so when you speak about compassion and, and emotional intelligence and trust, I see it as you have to first see each person for their humanity. And when you talk about the surprise in somebody's getting that, that $100 bill or that that gift card from an officer, it's because what they see is only one faceted, they see the uniform or the disciplinarian and they don't see the humanity they don't see the individual with the family or the or the hopes and dreams that they had that that may have been exactly the same as theirs. And when you speak about trust, to actually open the door to trust, so that you can have those components. You know, trust is not something starts with an with other it starts with it starts with self and it starts with even the smallest decisions, which is are you in integrity with yourself? Do you do you say what it is? Do you actually do what you say you're going to do. And if you make a mistake, and don't do that, do you go back and apologize, also to yourself?

That is, that is the

Lisa Marie Platske
simplest and the tiniest and the most practical way to be able to build trust, trust with self before you can open the doors with others. And so I see it as without personal integrity. How can somebody possibly trust you? How can they believe that you're going to do what you say you're going to do? And so when you talk about that, whether it be in communities, or whether it be in businesses, that is the groundwork the foundational components for someone to be a compassionate leader with emotional intelligence, now, that may calm you takes a degree of self-awareness in order to be able to understand that and ask oneself those questions. Without personal integrity, you you'll never get to,

to trust?

Greg Voisen
Well, you, you've also got another element around our emotions. And that's this interplay with ego, I think you have to really respect ego. In other words, you have to learn to live alongside of it, it's never going away. Many officers and just not just officers, but many people in places of leadership, they get there because they've had a strong ego. On the other hand, they know how to control that ego, to create a better relationship. And they're open to listening. And they don't always have to be right. Although the ego will say, hey, you know, you're, you're trying to be right. And the first way to build that trust with people is not always thinking you're right. That is a great way to allow people inclusion. And this brings me to this the upside, the upside thinking download that we're going to provide to the listeners. And you ask them to answer three important questions. Can you speak about the questions? And why in your estimation, and we'll get to the principles. But these are the questions. Why, in your estimation? Are those questions so important? And they're right up front? I'll just tell everybody right now, in this downloadable blueprint that you're going to be able to get? And so let's talk about those three questions. Sure.

Lisa Marie Platske
So those three questions are all about the why and why something matters. Because if you're not clear why something is math matters to you, you can't actually take action on it. And so those questions are designed to tap into first off what it is that you want your vision, your vision for where you want to go, you know, influence in looking at influential leadership influences simply having people follow you. It's having in being able to understand why is that important to you? What is it that you actually want? Who are you? That's really what the those questions are all about to provide a framework before you actually get into the three principles?

So

Greg Voisen
then, let's, let's talk about it. That's the wise, right, that's the part of the wise. Then there's these three principles that are part of this download as well. And let's talk about the first one. Stop doing what you have been taught. How does this principle, help the listeners or anybody get closer to our goals that are in alignment with our values and our purpose?

Well, Greg, you've met

Lisa Marie Platske
lots of people in your life. And I would say that, from the people that I've met, most people operate life on autopilot, just walking out every day and going out and see and wandering around going to the bank driving someplace. There are so many people who are whether they're in their car or whether they're at home, doing something on a routine, not a routine because they've created it because they're saying I put this in my calendar to do it at this time. But rather than just operating life on autopilot, without truly understanding, this is the reason why I take this action and to be able to do that To be intentional and to understand this is what it is that I want. Well, that's, that takes energy, it takes effort, being intentional is oftentimes thrown around as a word, this idea of actually really having non negotiables in your life and saying, No, these are the agreements that I've made, this is the code that I have for my life, this is how it is that I operate. So stop doing what you're taught. What that does is it has you question everything that you're doing, and understand why do you do it? I remember, this is gonna sound like something's just so simple.

Greg Voisen
Can I ask you a question? Sorry, for interrupting, you know, frequently, exercises like these, like, it's a blueprint, you're gonna go and answer questions. And, you know, I can't tell you how many books have had questions at the end of them and answer these questions. And it's going to do, and I would say, you know, based on being in this business, as long as I have done almost 1000 interviews on personal growth and business and wellness and spirituality, that takes effort, it takes effort to want to do what we're talking about. The effort normally occurs when somebody has something troubling them pain that they want to get out of, because the pain is greater than the effort that it's going to take to relieve the pain. Okay. In your estimation, you know, you're saying stop doing what you've been taught, because you're on autopilot. And you're just kind of moving around. There's a sense that I think we ought to let everybody know that requires a big step. I mean, it's like a big step, it really is to make that and the changes you're going to make are going to be significant by just doing the work, right, they say, show up, do the work, you're going to have to do the work. And I know I may be going on a bit about this. But I really do understand how much we resist it. It is something that's resistant, because the body is kind of built to go back to homeostasis. It says, Oh, great, you know, I want to be comfortable. Well, the reality is, if you're not in some discomfort, you're probably never going to do this.

Lisa Marie Platske
Right. I could reach out over the screen and just give you a big hug for that. Because Greg, you're so right. Like, that's, that's it, like, one of the one of the pieces I speak about a lot is comfort doesn't change the world. It just it doesn't. And so me to get to this didn't come because, you know, I was sitting someplace and went, oh, just stop doing what I'm taught. It's like, no, I started to question everything. Because I was in such discomfort and such pain in where I was that it was like, what's the answer to get me out of this? And so if, you know if I hear people speak about leadership, and yeah, yeah, I want to be a better leader. I want to have influence. Yeah, I want to be and the reality is, it means that where you're at right now isn't going to be what's going to get you and take you to where you want to go. So that requires change. And when I feel when I'm getting too comfortable with something, I'm like, oh, this is not good. You know, because it means that that things are stagnant means that I'm not there's not evolution, there's no growth, there's not change. And from things as simple as you know, why do I drink water? Why? Who said that? I'm supposed to drink that much water? How much water do I really need? What does it do? When do I? I mean, as silly as that sounds like every little action to go, what's the contribution to my greater good, rather than just going somebody said to do this at some point and me not having context as to what it does. By the way I am now in this kicker not kick but I've been over the last two years. It's like one gallon of water a day based on my Wait, why not at meals, you know, at room temperature, all these things that I've learned from

Greg Voisen
right? Yeah, I in the water is a great it's a very small example. And it's a very small step. But it's a step in the right direction based on you know what you want to accomplish, right? I say everybody's an individual, not everybody's going to follow the same blueprint, but they're going to listen, ask them soften elicit questions around the why, why is it that you're doing when you start thinking about your own thinking is when you can actually make a shift? I mean, you don't have to believe everything you think. So all of a sudden, you know, you've made a thought, and then you go, hey, you know, I believe that thought, or if you really think about your thinking, right, and they call this metacognition, that's the term for it. That is what gets you to make better decisions. And that's what we're talking about here. Now, the second principle is to move three things a mile, you mentioned that doing one thing, well, can produce exponential adult results? How do we get out of the trap of having so much of our so much on our plates? And focusing on the most important elements in our life? Because you were single mom, you know? No, my mom, oh, your mom, your mom was a single mom. But so look at all this stuff she had to do, raising your kids. She was working. She was trying to get all this put together. And I see single mothers a lot, whether it's being profiled somewhere, you know, actually, last night, they were being profiled on Lisa Ling. This is life. It's, it's tough. Right? But for them to get out of the pain and suffering that's required, it requires them to take these steps. So what I'm gonna ask you is the, how do we move these three things a mile?

Lisa Marie Platske
Moving three things. Now, first, you have to know what those three things are first, before you actually can move anything. And the second thing is a what I see as a personal agreement. You hear you mentioned the ego earlier. And so and you mentioned, you know, the voices that actually help somebody propel. And so the mind can be is incredibly powerful. And you don't have to believe every thought or act on every feeling. And yet there are there are so much time spent looking at what has happened in the past, and what potentially will happen tomorrow. And spending time living right here and right now means I have to value the here. And now I have to see the here and now. You know, no distractions you and me, Greg and listeners, and that's it like no phone on a lap, no side conversation going on no typing anything, no, just being present here. And in order for me to be present here for you, I had to value me being here. And I had to set myself up prior to this to physically be present and be here. And so I learned that when I was in the government when I would, I had a I was a I was a supervisor and I was in a small office. And there were six people outside. And when somebody would come in, I would be on my computer. And I would look my head up, and I would lift my head and just look over a little bit. And they would be asking me something. And I would be talking and one of my employees said to me. You don't pay attention to me when we're having a conversation. And I was like, sure I am like I heard everything you said and I can. And what I got in that moment that I went back to the examination, which goes back to principle number one, was this idea that multitasking was a thing and it was effective. And I had to go to the research and go actually it's not. And the percentages go down tremendously and how effective you are. And number two was, it's what message am I sending by also trying to be in two places at once when it comes to another person and it sends the message that you're not valuable, your time is not valuable, what you have to say isn't valuable. And so the first thing is committing to living in the here and now and understanding that right here. All you've got is this moment you don't have any other moments you only have this moment there's not there is nothing else other than

Greg Voisen
that have to do with the value you place. I mean think about this for a minute. I've done exactly what you've done a zillion times. I've run companies with employees people come through the door. You know you're supposed to be in the olden days. They used to say the shell answer man you were supposed to be able to give got all the answers, right. And like you working on a computer or working on something, or on a phone or trying to concentrate on something. So the distraction number one is, is an important, if you're going to set yourself up as the leader in your in you have an open door policy, then you need to realize that, that you have to let people come in, you have to let them come in. And you have to say, or you have to say, hey, look, I'm busy right now. But I would like to talk with you, can you come back at two o'clock, and we'll meet. And we'll do that, right? Because I give you my full attention. And I want to give you my full attention. And so this comes to value. That's where I was going, when you have these competing values, about, you know, Lisa, walking through the door, but I'm on the computer sending an email to Bob. And Bob is more important, because Bob is going to be the next deal for the company where Lisa is working for the company. And she can wait, right? It's, it's these competing values that you have going on all the time. What? Because you've, you know, you've been there, what advice would you give to people today that are, and I know the whole statistics on multitasking. It just doesn't work. We know that you can't do or anything effectively more. And I think that statistic is like two things at a time. But really, whatever the number is Microsoft's done studies, everybody's done studies, we know that it's like, it doesn't work. What advice would you have for him?

Lisa Marie Platske
Go you are you mentioned the word and that is core values? What are your core values? What are the things that are your greatest drivers, and being really clear what those are, and being willing to communicate that in my organization is excellence, accountability, personal responsibility and service. And so if something has to, you know, there are times when even people on my own team with me, as the CEO, say, You know what, here's what's gone going on, and I'm going to take care of this client, and I'm going to get back to you on this, the communication is still happening, just like what you what you had had shared about, okay, giving the example with Bob, or this is the person who's the employee. And so I think you've got to really be clear on what your values are. And then you have to be willing to be in communication, in order to live out those values. Here's the reason why I made this choice. Is one choice better than the other? And the answer is not necessarily. It's being able to communicate and articulate what that is, in your scenario, in going back to Bob and saying, you know what, Bob, I know that this is really urgent. And I've got, you know, Lisa, sitting here in my office and give me 10 minutes, and it comes back and says no, this is the reason why I did this, because our company values are, you know, putting the putting the making people feel valued making people feel important. And that's what I did. And that's the reason why I made that decision. It's Bob's responsibility, then to come back and go, no, that actually didn't work, you should have done this. But what I find is that sometimes people struggle to make a decision. And when you understand what the priority is the number one priority. And you've been asking that in an organization, you make choices based on whatever that whatever is the greatest value in the organization. And for some organizations, it's people and for other organizations, it's not it's bottom line. And individual teams, it's the same thing. There's a certain culture and value. And when you understand what their number one driver is, you can make choices accordingly. You know, that's, that, for me is, you know, how you can ensure that you're not trying to do three different things. At the same time. You're not trying to multitask and make everybody happy, you actually have some sort of order, but you're also communicating why you're making these decisions.

Greg Voisen
Well, we do recognize that routine is valuable. And I want to make a statement, then we'll go on to the last principle here. That if you are mindful, and if you I'm not saying you have to practice meditation, but meditation has an opportunity to bring the awareness a greater awareness about what's going on and you're setting your day up. So if your practice if you wake up in the morning and you jump out of bed and you don't do your gratitude journal and you don't do it Certain things that you've set up that are actually part of a routine that actually set your day up to finish with the intention that you had. Right? You will find so much more peace, so much more calm. If you do that. I can only say from experience that it just works. And it because there is a higher power working with you, this is my spiritual side speaking, that's literally helping you set that day up. Okay, and it does turn out a lot better. So let's talk about your third principle. Courage is often more important than expertise. I agree. Courage is very important, speak with our listeners about your experience. And you talked about camping with your sisters and your mom, and what you learned about how important courage was despite your fear?

Lisa Marie Platske
Well, I used to think that knowledge was more important than anything else. And when I look back at life, you know, starting with, with some of those experiences with my mom, I recognize that that's not necessarily true. And so now my mom was, you know, a single mom, that would pack us up in the car, and we'd go on these camping adventures, and we did it because it was a low budget activity. And yet, my mom would send my sister and I off into the woods, and going off into the woods when you're, I mean, gosh, my sister and I sometimes were eight and nine years old, and there'd be noises in the background, and there would be this, this certain amount of fear that would, you know, bubble up for me because it's Yeah, who knows, it could be a squirrel, but it could be a bear, you know, and you can't tell the difference in your eight year old mind. And, and so, it, it gave me a certain amount of what I would say, you know, resilience to, to, to having the courage to still be out there and still be willing to be challenged to do what was what was not always the easiest when we were on those adventures. And it led to me getting involved in Adventure camps, through the Girl Scouts and taking travels to places that I had no idea, I wouldn't know any of the people and I wouldn't know what I would be getting myself into. And, you know, I remember one time, you know, going on one where I thought, I still remember what I say to you, I thought it like I remember thinking the thought outside, you know, no tent, trying to strike these matches, you know, they had given me to build a fire with these couple of sticks that I had gathered, and it just not working me thinking like, what are you doing, like, what, in the what, what in the world and, and then saying to myself, you can do this, like you, you know, if nothing else, you know, and you wake and you never start this fire, like you can do this, you can sleep out here, because the other thought this, there's this part of my brain that's going you know, run back to the, you know, you know, find somebody find somebody you know, you'll find, find a camp counselor, and you know, somebody's gotta be hiding around somewhere, and, and get yourself out of this mess, you know, and then there's the other part of me that's going, you know, you have the ability to do this, you know, you may not, you may not have all the tools, you may not have all the all the knowledge, but you're you are wise and you are courageous and you are brave, and you are able to do this. And, you know, I look back in my life at the number of times where that was the case where it was like, wasn't the smartest person on the team or I wasn't the person that had the greatest amount of expertise. And yet, I had the internal desire to take action and taking that leap of faith, which truly was a leap of faith allowed me to move forward with so many things. I wouldn’t have written a book, I wouldn't open a business, I wouldn't have done any of those things. And yet I have conversations with people that are waiting for the next certification or the next class or the next. Something to do before they're going to take their leap. It's like it's not a leap of faith. Then if you actually wait until all your you know your i's are dotted and your T's are crossed. Sometimes you just do it and you go this is crazy. You know, this is nuts. You know, I have no idea how this is going to work out but I can't wait to see and perhaps it goes back to what you said. About Your into the morning routine, which is, you know, I start off with getting on my knees and saying to God, like, here's my contribution today, you know what's yours gonna be because it's I don't know what the day is going to bring, and I don't know what life is going to bring. And I, I see that courage is so much more important than the expertise because it's the willingness to put yourself out there into the uncomfortable situations so that you can affect change, you know, these three principles go back in a circle, you know, you transform you focus, and then you use courage, and then you go back and you transform again. And that's really what the leadership journey is all about. I'm happy to describe.

Greg Voisen
Oh, it's good, you know, and we haven't talked much about love. But, you know, self-love, is really where all this starts. And you know, it, people say, Oh, well, somebody had poor self-esteem. So they ended up this particular way, or whatever. But you've got to love you, before you can love anybody else. And if you can love you, what can end up happening is, you'll find that you have a lot more risk tolerance, right? You were talking about, oh, not taking the risk, you'll also find out that you're much more curious. You might not be radically curious, but you're going to be curious. And like you said, if you're waiting for everything to line up perfectly before you take the next step, you're probably never going to take the next step. You know, I'm just finished a book called the precipice of life with mountain climbers that some of them have been up Everest 17 times. And they'll say, you know, when I was doing all these interviews, and I thought this was interesting, some of the listeners may have already heard this, but they said if you're not living unless you've faced death. So the interesting element there is, I don't think we all need to go phased out. Don't get me wrong by saying that. But I think that part of that statement is basically saying, you have to risk facing something, right? And that's what's going to make you alive. Right? I'm alive when I reached that top of Everest is what they're all saying, or I'm alive when I climb the highest seven summits or, and they really do get addicted to it. By the way, it's an addicting kind of thing. But the point is, is that you become alive, and whatever that is for you. And I'm not certain that that liveness is, and I'm rambling on here. But that aliveness doesn't have to be found, through you saying, take a psycho celibate in or, you know, go take ayahuasca, or whatever, so that you can do that in certain cases, that's fine. I'm okay with that. But for the most part, it's about you getting out there, you taking an action, and you doing something completely different than you've never done before. That's really that simple, something that's simple. So with that, the influential leadership blueprint provides people with the foundation to get started on their journey. What are three takeaways that you want to leave the listeners with, that they can implement into their lives today, because this is the action part, this is all about action.

Lisa Marie Platske
So for me, number one is ensuring that you've got room you create room for stillness in space. You can’t actually hear what it is you want. Unless there's stillness in space for me, I happen to like taking God walks in the morning, yes, even in the cold like I like to be out in nature and being outside and you know, that's, that's an important most important thing to take away, you know, you spoke about so many things and when I think about you know, what this blueprint is all about, in terms of, of you touching on you know, self-love is that you've got to value you as the number one as the most important in order to be able to take this journey and leading others requires you to lead your start with you and lead yourself first, which is the reason why these questions are asked in the blueprint. And so creating space for yourself so that you actually can hear number two, ensuring that you make yourself the number one priority to really love you. And number three is to understand it so and to recognize why you would take this journey is because the world needs you and your brilliance you have something to offer that nobody else has, that nobody else can offer that nobody else I can provide in the manner in which you provide it. Now, I mentioned I'm more of an applied scientist, I don't have the pedigree, I don't have the, you know, I try things out, I'm curious, you know, that is what the risk has done. But I wasn't always like that, you know, I was actually quite afraid of life. And quite, you know, you grew up in a family where there's domestic violence, you know, you hear a noise, and you, you jump, and you're scared. And, and so these are things that had to learn over time. They're there things that started with the simple and then became greater over time. So to remember that the world needs you, wherever you are. And whatever you're doing, because you have something, you know, that's, that's, that's an important one to remember.

Greg Voisen
Well, for my listeners, you're going to, we're going to have a link. But if you want to learn more about Lisa and her team and what they're doing, just go to upside thinking.com, we'll put a link to that. There'll be a link to this free download blueprint that we've been talking about here for the last 40 minutes. And you can use that you then can reach out to Lisa and her team, just by going to the website and go into their contact form reaching out to them. You'll also have information on the blueprint itself to be able to do that. Lisa, it's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth, talking about the principles, talking about your own personal journey. And also, most importantly, giving people tools that again, we said it takes effort. I mean, there's tools in the tool shed, you might want to clean your yard. But if you don't pick up the rake and start raking the yard, you're never gonna get those leaves raked up, right. So I know a silly analogy, but it's true. There's that the tools are there. So this blueprint is a tool in your tool chest. And I just want to say that if you take the time to pick it up, you have an opportunity to you know, make a change in your life. Right? So thank you, namaste to you. And thank you to all your team for the link on the website that we're going to put up again for everybody upside thinking. We've been talking with Lisa Marie, about the influential leadership blueprint. Thank you, Lisa.

Lisa Marie Platske
Pleasure. Thank you

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Podcast 984: Open Boundaries: Creating Business Innovation Through Complexity with Ron Schultz

Joining me for this podcast is a good friend of mine, Ron Schultz. We’re gonna talk about a milestone which is the 25th anniversary edition of one of his books co-authored by Howard Sherman entitled Open Boundaries: Creating Business Innovation through Complexity.

Ron Schultz has written, co-written and edited 25 published books on social innovation, meditation, emergence, science, and entrepreneurship. In 2014, he received the Social Innovation Leadership Award from the World CSR Congress. In addition to his book publishing credentials, Ron has written hundreds of nationally published magazine articles, and has had an extensive career in television and film.

Going back to one of Ron’s masterpieces, co-authored by the late Howard Sherman, Open Boundaries emerged out of years of seminars which attracted businesses and enterprises from around the world grappling with rapid change. Since it was first published 25 years ago, the book has been recognized as a seminal work in leading Enterprise Complexity. The process of interaction and emergence introduced in this book, exposes the myth that enterprise complexity can be managed.

If you want to know more about Ron, you may click here to visit their company website; and if you want to purchase the 25th anniversary edition of Open Boundaries, you may click here to order their hardcover format; or paperback edition. You may also buy this good to read book through this link.

I hope you enjoy my engaging interview with Ron Schultz. Thanks and happy listening!

THE BOOK

Leading the way to these adjacent opportunities is why the ideas in Open Boundaries continue to create a new future. They are as needed today as they were when they first shattered enterprise thinking. There is a good reason it, as well as the other books in the Re-Emerge collection, are classics. They are not about control and order, but a means of understanding and meeting the complexity encountered and leading it to a new and vital future.

THE AUTHOR

Ron Schultz has written, co-written and edited 25 published books on social innovation, meditation, emergence, science, and entrepreneurship. In 2014, he received the Social Innovation Leadership Award from the World CSR Congress. Among his books are: Creating Good Work – The World’s Leading Social Entrepreneurs Show How to Build a Healthy Economy (Palgrave Macmillan, 2013); The Complex Buddhist – Doing Good in a Challenging World, (Emergent Publications 2015); Open Boundaries: Creating Business Innovation through Complexity, (Perseus Books, 1998) and Unconventional Wisdom – Twelve Remarkable Innovators Tell How Intuition Can Revolutionize
Decision Making (HarperCollins, 1994).

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transciption (not edited) of the interview.

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Greg Voisen
Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. I have a very good friend joining me from Eugene, Oregon. His name is Ron Schultz. And Ron and I have known each other so long that his hair has fallen out. But anyway, this is his is Review, I'm gonna say the 25th anniversary of a book called Open boundaries that we're going to be talking about today. And this is creating business innovation through complexity. He co-authored this book with Howard Sherman. So a shout out to Howard Sherman as well. The first real

Ron Schultz
Howard is still dead.

Greg Voisen
Okay, so he's still dead? Well, we put a shout out to him wherever he is. But the book is a new addition with the revisions is excellent. This is actually this is 25 years, it's actually been 27 years. I think it was 1995. But the reality is, is that the content of the book is still applicable as much applicable today, as it was 25 years ago, but has been updated. So again, the book is open boundaries. Look for it. We'll put a link on Amazon. Ron, I want to tell our listeners a little bit about you. Ron's written and coauthored and edited 25 published books on social innovation, meditation, emergent science and entrepreneurship. In 2014, he received the social innovation leadership award from the world CSR Congress. Among his books are creating good work, the world's leading social entrepreneurs show how to build a healthy economy. That was in 2013, the complex Buddhist doing good in a challenging world. Again, same publishers this one and open boundaries, which that's this book that we're talking about the 25th anniversary edition. In addition to his book publishing credentials, Ron has written hundreds of nationally publicized magazine articles and had an extensive career in television and film. Ron has spoken and lectured at the Skoll World Forum and the world CSR Congress, the social enterprise World Forum, the Oxford jam and numerous social enterprise Alliance summits. I did his undergraduate work at the California State University, Northridge, which is recently accepted his archives for his collection. He's also on the board of directors for the Tom and for Bradley Foundation and the Institute for study of coherence, and emergence. And as I said, he lives in Eugene, Oregon, he transplanted himself up there a few years back. So, Ron, you know, you and I have known each other so long, but you co-authored this book with Howard. And at this point, it's like 27 years ago, if you would tell the listeners, how complexity played a role in innovation 27 years ago, and what has changed relative to our current complex business environments, as it relates to this because this, if anything's happened, our worlds have just sped up even more, and they've become more complex.

Ron Schultz
Well, what has to be understood is that complexity didn't start 25 years ago, 27 years ago, it started. It was, since the beginning of time, and probably before the beginning of time, it was this as a definition of complexity, very quickly, you and I interact, something emerges out of that interaction that is greater than the sum of our two parts, and not wholly contained by either. And when we start including more people than us, in that, in that interactive process, things get very complex. In fact, those people who are in relationships with another person who have discovered the relationship to become very complex and very quick. And so the impact on business has always been operating out of this complex environment. What's happened is we really haven't we haven't focused on it. We haven't recognized. We've been trapped in old ways of thinking, in this case, we're coming out of a mechanistic universe, that it wants everything to fall into certain predictable patterns. And the part of that's interesting, most interesting about complexity is that that predictability is not possible, because things are constantly emerging, emerging in constant change.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, the complexity part of it. It it's seems and I'm sure it's like you said, complexity has been here since the dawn of time. But it seems in the world in which we live, especially with the amount of technology that we have to deal with, and how much we rely on all of this, you and I hear making a call, that's a great example of how this world has become even more complex. You state that the process of forming and informing has always played a major role in this book. What is the paradox is by the very nature of complexity, that cannot be fully formulated, because it's is continually emerging, speak with the listeners about the slippery nature of complexity thinking, because it is very slippery, let's face it, you know, it's pretty hard to put boundaries around it, you say, open boundaries. That's why the book is open boundaries, because it's, it's tough.

Ron Schultz
Yeah, well, the use of the word slippery is very interesting and very apt. What we're really looking at too, is the notion that the, because of the emergence, because of our sense of things, interacting and emerging all the time, we can't hold on. And that slippery nature is about our grasping, trying to hold on. And it's one of the issues that has caused so many problems in this in, in and around our world is our need to grasp and hold on to things and keep them as they are, as opposed to allowing them to emerge to change. And the same thing is certainly true within our, our business. Foundations and, and institutions, we want them to be solid. And in this case, they're not there. In fact, they're, they're constantly changing. And so that emerging blog, and is, in fact slippery, because you can't hold on, there is no grasping. And, and that's an important quality in this whole process is to understand that within our the work that we're doing, if we're trying to hold on to something, it's just going to slip out of our head, we'll speak about

Greg Voisen
that, because uncertainty seems to be the word that's used. As a matter of fact, in business, there's an acronym, and I'm, I can't recall it right now, you probably can. And there's four letters, and one of them is uncertainty, right? It's like dealing with uncertainty, there seems to be in this emerging evolution of the times in which we're living today, much more uncertainty, I can remember what seemed to me. And again, this is perception only, that the world was a lot more stable. And, and again, I think that's biased thinking, I would agree that it's biased thinking. But at the same time, as a human being in the way we're made up and the way our brain works, and neurologically, how we fire, and our amygdala and how we hold things in this little brain up here, it has a very difficult time, wanting to make that change it fights, it definitely fights moving to this, as you call it, let go. You know, it's like, there is people I mean, you look, you're the one with all the background and training in Buddhism. And, you know, I have a quote on my wall over here, you know, the Dalai Lama says, you'll be remembered for how many people you loved, who loved you, and how much you let go, right? I'm paraphrasing, and it's that let go apart, then I have a feeling that everybody listening to this show has the most difficult time with?

Ron Schultz
Well, it is it's hard, letting go is in notion of letting go is hard. But what I what I've often said, especially when I'm teaching people meditation, is that it's not so much about letting go. It's about holding on. And if we're not holding on to something, we've got nothing to let go. And it's in in that context. I can understand letting go easier. It's I get there easier, because I'm not holding on. Stopping to let go up. And that's the whole practice. That's the whole idea of is it within a complex adaptive system. And that's what we're talking about here are systems that are able to adapt that in that change process. If we try to hold on to it. All we're doing is killing it or not allowing it to change and emerge as it wants to do and the whole notion of the systems you and I are complex adaptive systems. The whole notion of us It is constantly moving and changing that whole process of in the Buddhist, Buddhist area, it's called impermanence in the business area, it's called that damn change. Another yet another change operation, the thing is, is that it's always changing. Everything that we're doing that is adaptive system is changing the old. And that's why people were so low, let go of the mechanical unit set system that is very predictable, that when you build a widget, you build the same widget over and over and over again. And the system doesn't change, if you feel comfortable, think that they feel comfortable. But what actually happens is that stops them from really moving into something new about Lean, which is the root of innovation. Yeah.

Greg Voisen
And along with that, which is another Buddhist term, which is used, it's the acceptance of what is right, it's like we, we sometimes have a preconceived notion, as we're inventing something, making something doing something that we think it should turn out a certain way. And when we resist, we're not accepting what is or what's trying to show up for us, which is the emergence of the development of this product service, whatever it might be. Because we think it's got to happen this particular way. And in your comments, on the myths of the closed system, you state that in stark contrast to the Newtonian closed system, open systems are not mechanical, but emergent, I think that's important to note here, speak with the listeners about open systems and their emergent properties, because that's really, what the essence is,

Ron Schultz
yeah, well, we have this delusion, illusion that we can close our systems, especially systems that involve people that in systems that are, that are adaptive, that we, we, we think that if we can close them, we can predict them, we can protect them. And what we understand, of course, is that it's kind of why we build fortifications, we think that these fortifications are somehow going to protect us, when in fact, they don't only protect, they may protect us, but they also lock us in. So we can't go beyond those bounds. And we get stuck in those places. And in business, we're constantly having to adapt to what the world is shout out to where we're showing up. And so we have to view our systems, we have to recognize that our systems are open by their very nature, and that the closed system is the unnatural system. And so we can, we can recognize that our systems are open, we can be willing to follow that emergent process that will invariably app because, you know, we cannot do that, you know, any, any biological system, any living system is going to interact with something else. And out of that something new will emerge.

Greg Voisen
And at least find it fascinating. Ron, how over the years, you know, I've had so many people on the show, we're almost at 1000. And as you're speaking, I'm thinking of interviews I've had with Ken Wilber, who got involved in actually codifying what he thought the systems were inside of companies as well, right? So, and he used color codes, red meant that it was a very caustic all the way down to a color system, right. And the reason I brought that up is because Frederick Ledoux, who wrote a book who's over in France, I was talking with somebody about yesterday. And it's really about what we're talking about here that open boundaries, right? The open boundaries, this emergence, this being able to not think we've got to have a closed system, but innovation is the key. So you state that businesses know they must innovate to survive. And this is true, I don't think you can force innovation. And unfortunately, that's kind of what a lot of these companies who attempted to do, but then innovation are incompatible with the company's principles. You state that businesses know that they must innovate to survive, but that innovation, that they are incompatible with the company's principles are often produced confusion rather than growth. I'm speaking with us if you would about the principles, models, rules and behaviors that interfere with true innovation, because, you know,

Ron Schultz
I think that that's, that's a bit of a misunderstanding around there, okay? That they can't they can't interfere, if we're not addressing principles, models, rules and behavior is really how things happen, how things change and why they don't change. So the notion here is the principle of an organization, our environment, we don't change our principles, we go in with a certain way, we want to create the best product, the best products in this market, we want to become the number one. So the comms are, what we're trying to attain what our organization wants to accomplish, and that doesn't change, those stay pretty much the same. But in order to meet that principle, we create models that are constantly changing, we're trying to model what it takes to accomplish that principle. So we create a model or a representation of that it's not, the model is always changing, it's never complete. And in order to make that model happen, we have to have certain rules that govern the behaviors that will build that model that will create that model. And so what ends up happening is that when our model changes, which it will, it always, we also have to go back and change the rules that govern that, and the behaviors that were governed by those rules. And so if we don't do that, if we're if we if we have a new model, and our old rules are still in place, we're not getting we're not getting the behaviors necessary to create that new model, it's pretty safe. So it's a kind of a continual process of updating, and in our rules and our behaviors, to meet the new model to build the new model. And when we refuse to do that, or we don't do, we don't recognize that we have to do, we don't get what we want. And the change that we would like to happen doesn't. But if we do, if we maintain that what can emerge is often inconceivable, as I remember,

Greg Voisen
it being referred by Margaret Wheatley, as this these ecosystems, right inside companies, I'm sure you're familiar with Margaret Wheatley, his work well. And it and she would state things like you know, you can't have that innovation, again, like you guys are saying unless you have this opportunity for people to create another it's creating

Ron Schultz
a culture that

Greg Voisen
is consistent with that. Now, we know many companies have done a very amazing job, Apple being one to allow this to happen, Patagonia, you know, let my people serve all of those things. You want to comment about the creating the ecosystems that are necessary for innovation,

Ron Schultz
the ecosystems exist, what we have to do is just recognize that we are part of that ecosystem, we were part of a great, you know, it, we speak thinking that we're somehow separate from our ecosystem, that's probably part of our problems, in terms of addressing that, because we are very much a part of all of those different process. And to define one, you know, to define the environment of a business, as a separate ecosystem, oftentimes, immediately sets it up for a form of failure, we have to recognize that what we're doing is really connecting is connected to an entire ecosystem of our universe. And that each process of this that we that we're involved in, there's a there's an emergent process that builds it and builds it builds it so that it is all part of one system. But at the same time, that system is interactive. And that when we try to define it, by an ecosystem here and ecosystem there, what happens is we shut we start closing down those what we call open boundaries. Now it's you know, there was a thing called of yours. There is a thing called self-organization, which has been very big in this process and people have misunderstood Heliot says, businesses Aelia Okay, anyway, the fellas, we've defined this notion of self-organization Previous areas dealing in India triggers, you know, though businesses. What he said is that there is the self-organization, but it requires boundaries. It doesn't just happen in and of itself, it needs to be bound. It needs to have that that area around it. And this is the whole notion of promoter does is it provides that container that will allow for self-organization to take place. So that new thing can emerge, but at the same time it has that permeate permeable quality that allows it to open up into the world, the bar.

Greg Voisen
Agreed, agreed, you know, I think it's I don't know if this is the right term, but use it, it's having trust that the system will actually self-emerge itself evolve, right?

Ron Schultz
But you can certainly, you can absolutely have trust in that. Because it's, you know, as we say, it's one of the few things that it's guaranteed about business, that is going to change.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah, it is true. And I think it's around the resistance of understanding about these, how this works. Right? That really is the thing that, you know, cogs up, it creates a lot of messes, a lot of messes. So, you know, you mentioned in the book that if Einstein was still living, that he had the inclination and capitalize on his theories and discoveries, that he'd be the CEO of the largest company on the face of the earth. I thought that was great statement. And I agree. But he didn't commercialize all those things that he thought about. And many people sense has commercialized what he thought about and made lots of money off of it. Yeah, him and Tesla and a bunch of others. What is business? And how can it thrive and embrace new ways of thinking?

Ron Schultz
Well, as we know, it needs, it needs to embrace new ways of thinking, in order to survive. And you know, business is a is a complex set of, of interactions, to produce something that that is something that you want to produce, there's something that you want to accomplish. And that's in business is about the process of doing for profit. And it can be for naught nonprofit, as well, those organizations are also equally as complex. But it is an organization process. And the notion of being able to maintain and evolve to a new way of thinking is merely being open to the process of that emergent, that emergent process of things, change of things interacting and new things coming out of it. Because the whole notion of that is that it's what can emerge out of an interaction is both new and now, which is what innovation is about. But it's also important to understand complexity is agnostic. You know, good things can emerge, bad things can emerge, non-neutral things can emerge, it's that interaction is not necessarily going to produce a positive emergence. So we have to have some discretion, some way of looking at things are discerning what is good and what isn't good. And that's what characterizes the business that stays in business, from a business that goes out of business, is that ability to discern what works and what doesn't. But it's also been open to that new way because we can find, we can find that path. It's like creating new neural net.

Greg Voisen
Well, it is because, you know, we have to adapt and adopt, we have to cope, you know, complexity thrown at me or uncertainty thrown at me or whatever it might be. It starts with the individual inside these organizations to be able to understand how to work with it, how to how to be a partner with it.

Ron Schultz
Yeah, we tried to, we tried to sanitize out the unsanded the uncertainty, that's a real that's a real mistake. Because it's uncut. We're uncomfortable with that uncertainty with not knowing that's what things to be predictable.

Greg Voisen
And well I'm part of that run is the system you were talking about. The systems inside the principles inside the company, the beliefs inside the company. You know, if you have a top line manager, let's just talk about that, you know, and I work under him or her whatever and they are pushing Need to get something done? I don't have the time maybe to wallow, which actually, if I could wallow, right, I probably make a better decision. They're literally looking for decisions to be made, because they believe that it's driving profit, the longer it takes to innovate something, the more money it costs us, you know, you can the list is a mile long, right. And it does require that everybody in the company, understand these principles, more clear

Ron Schultz
rules of behavior and the relationship with those. Yeah. But what we also need to understand is that complexity, and this is the place where we fall down and what blex complexity can't be managed, right? Because it was predictive nature, it can't really be met as it can be led. And so that's why leaders have to recognize the complex nature of their organization and lead them and not just try to manage them, because managing them is a continual system of posing the system, so we can get a better handle. Right? That's what judgment is about. And this is not in the paradox is, is the harder you hold on. Quicker, it slips away.

Greg Voisen
Now that's so true, you know. And in that, I want to talk about chaos for a second, you provided a definition, according to Mike McMaster in the book, can you speak with us about the difference between chaos and complexity as it relates to innovation in business, because

Ron Schultz
I think the best way to do that, Greg, is to use what we call a phase transition, which is actually very simple. So if we think of a block of bikes, as being assault, and as the sun beats on that block of ice, it goes through a phase transition and melts and turns into a puddle of water. And that puddle of water is the complexity out of which things can move, because a puddle of water can mix and it can feel other places within that water can find new avenues, and new interactions and new places to happen. And then what happens in that system, it goes through another phase where it evaporates, and it turns into a gas, and it evaporates up into the universe. And that is, and that's where chaos is that that dissipation of the water into that gas form becomes chaotic. And what you end up having is you have these little islands floating about, and so that there's real no real coherence within them. And so the complexity, the watery area, that in that phase transition, is really where we have the greatest ability to affect change, because the it is bounded, there is a membrane around that pedal that allows it to interact with other parts within that. And the this whole process is gets oftentimes gets old, that's too chaotic. When in fact, what we're saying is we're we don't we, the whole notion of the complexity scares us too much. And we don't even get to it. So when we kind of extend it out beyond the boundaries of what is really complexity into this area. Have little pockets that can't be understood.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and again, is this as simple as this might be, to understand, it's difficult for our brains and us to, to actually implement, it's a lot easier to talk about than it is to really implement it on a regular basis, especially in a working company with hundreds of employees who are all interacting with one another and have to deal with this. And if you would define there's adjacent possibilities. You state in the book that the businesses that succeed are those that are first within an industry to see an adjacent possibility and to act upon it. Okay. And you and I have talked about adjacent possibilities before. And I hear the term being used. I'm not certain there's a clear definition for the listeners. So I'd love to give them a clear definition. And then how you think adjacent opportunities come about for somebody to capitalize on

Ron Schultz
the adjacent opportunities. So those adjacent possibilities also, what I call the case of communities are those possibilities that are one step away from where we are right now. They surround us, they every time we make, we make a choice, every time we make a decision, something new emerges. And none of that emergence, there is also emerged as a new set of, of these adjacent possibilities. And what it is about in our, from a human perspective is recognizing what they could be what they are there, they're right there. And it's a matter of seeing, again, they're agnostic. So some of those possibilities suck. And they, they are not going to deliver what we want others, others of those possibilities are going to be the next step in the whole process of innovative process of our business. And so it's a matter of really being open to those, and being aware of what they might be and what they could be. And as I said, an adjacency is the closest we can have to where we are right now. So it's just one step away from where we are, but we're surrounded by those adjacent possibilities. And the second part of your question is, how do you act upon it? You know, it's about the about right, first of all, it's about recognize about being able to see it in about seeing it that it is it is something that that makes sense for the organization. And that is that is part of it, that falls under the principles of it. Because it's within that system of principles model of rules and behavior that we can make that change to that new JSON possibility. And but without that, without recognizing to relationships, that pick a possibility that isn't appropriate for the organization, and just go down, rappel into something that really pull the whole company down.

Greg Voisen
I think Rita McGrath I had her on here. And one of the things that she speaks about is seeing around corners. Those adjacent possibilities, opportunities, as you might say, are a result of being aware. And you're actually aware, and you're looking for ways to kind of almost, I don't want to say this, but I'm just gonna say it predict what's going to happen, right? In other words, to have this little crystal ball and say, Okay, I, I, you know, we take data in from all kinds of places, we assimilate this data. And we rely on data, many of us are making decisions based on a lot of data that's being fed to us, whether it's through the Internet, whether it's through our employees, whether it's through other vendors, it's people on the outside, we hear from, and we hear things and then we go, ah, an opportunity. You know, this is something that I could seize. And I love the fact that if you are aware, you can almost find an adjacent opportunity somewhere, frequently. I mean, there's all kinds of examples of people finding them. Let me

Ron Schultz
let me define a little bit. So that there are we, the environment gives us cues as to what is about to emerge. If we don't see it, exactly. We don't know exactly precisely what's going to happen. But there are cues within the environment that says this is about to happen. And it's those people who can recognize those few who are the ones who can open up to those adjacent opportunities, possibilities it is in it is to a certain degree intuitive. It takes a level of ability to be open to, to what you're what's around you. And if you're if you're looking, if you're used to looking at this kind of narrow world, this narrow focus that that is, as a way of kind of filtering out all this stuff and all that we can miss the cues. And what we often talk about is how do you create huge spotters within an organization who can see what's happened. The Marines had a great example of this, they call them creative contributors. And because when they went to smaller units, they each unit needed to have this creative contributor who could kind of stick his head up metaphorically stick his head up above the hole and kind of sniff the air and get a sense of what was going on around them. Because of that very nature of exposing themselves in that fashion. They're easily killed, because the Marines will tell you and so that they become somebody that needs to be protected within the organization. And so they're the ones who can who have that ability to see not necessarily predict but at least be able to read the cues. Yeah. and be able to, to bring that back as a as a means of to operate the organization more effectively.

Greg Voisen
And I always like to use example, you know, I happened to hear this story about a woman and accompany back east Made in America. And some of the great examples of how people are innovative in that space. And one is that they, she decided to make customized books. So we know that the world today, the way it's evolved, you know, you can order a book off Amazon, and literally, it's almost produced the same day and it comes out. So she gets these presses and she customized books for people, anytime of the year for birthday holiday, with Ron's picture in it with picture of his dog with whatever produces his book. And last year produced 500,000 books that were customized the people were off the internet, right. And you because people love customize things, they like things that they can hand to Ron and say, hey, Ron, here's the you know, the picture of your family, and I put it in his book. And they built the story too, and the cartoons around it, right. In other words, the whole character thing. And it's fascinating how somebody is quickly able to take an opportunity, and push those books out, literally within days, to people who are putting them up the pictures up on the net, using the net to get them organized and put into a book printed in color, send it back out and use it for Christmas or holiday, a birthday, a bar mitzvah, whatever it might be, but literally has made a very, very successful business. And I love stories like that, because it's just, it's just fascinating as somebody sees an opportunity, an adjacent opportunity, and seizes it right. They didn't go oh, well, Simon and Schuster has to make all those books, because they're the ones that do it. No, I can make those books on my own. Those presses are cheap. Now. I can either rent one, I can buy one I can do whatever it was. It's just great. It's great to see.

Ron Schultz
Well, it's having that courage, if you will, to, to act on. Because what happens is, there's always this plethora of new opportunities that are coming at us. And it's the notion is to see what happens with a company like that is that they're able to pick up the cues as and move toward that, as opposed to having to look behind them to try and find what has emerged. Right. And that's the real key is that, how do you how do we train our workforce to be able to see what's coming toward them? Rather than having to look behind us? Because as soon as you look back, somebody has a competitive edge on? Yeah.

Greg Voisen
Well, you if we use what you call champions, language, businesses are made of ideas, ideas, expressed his words, then the critical barrier to innovation is stuckness. You said, and in adequate ideas and formulations? What are some of the questions that we can ask to determine if our ideas are viable, and discard the ones that are no longer useful? And this is very appropriate this time? Because we were just talking about it. You have a list of questions in the book. Yeah.

Ron Schultz
They're newly invent investigations, allowing people to invest to really look at what their organization have different pieces in? And the answer to that question, Greg, it's really in the question, that the ones that are no longer useful. How do we how do we recognize what's no longer useful and what's getting in the way of our process? Now? What happens? You know, I'll give you an example. That is that everyone had to go into your refrigerator. And they're invariably Well, at least in our urine, invariably, invariably, things in the back of the refrigerator they've been got that haven't been cleared out. And after a while, they begin to stink. And you recognize that this, this process is there. And so the notion is, it's not those things are no longer useful. And they're causing an impediment within the within the system itself. And it's causing an impediment up in the room themselves. So you get rid of those things. And those are, those are pretty obvious things that have to go. But we have to really look at is this something that it's useful? Is this something that is producing the cities adding to our model that is helping us produce adequately produce what we're trying to accomplish? And if it's not, then we have to let go of, and again, it's part of that process of trying to figure out what, what to hold on to and whatnot, hold on. It's a really a discriminating awareness and understanding that discernment of what it is that it is working what it is, and being blind

Greg Voisen
And now it's true. I mean in. And when you ask that question of anybody, any business, right, what you're trying to see is kind of, I'm gonna call it the delta between, okay, I do these things, this doesn't work. How come you haven't let go of what's not working? You're still doing it, you know, it's the old shit still back in the refrigerator. Right, right.

Ron Schultz
You and I work at, you know, I've worked in the nonprofit sector a lot. Yeah. And in the nonprofit sector, there's an awful expression about trying to get something done. Sometimes you have to kill the puppy. And the issue is nobody wants to kill the puppy. But the thing is, is that it does, there are times when that doesn't work, that's gonna upset all the people for PETA. But the notion is, is that sometimes that's not to do it's time. And that's metaphor, please. Right? Sometimes it's, it's, you know, we have to get rid of what we love, we are clinging artists to, we really want this, this is good, it's gotta work. And we try it and we try it and runs us, and we run them into the ground. So we have to recognize when is something not working, be willing to have that discernment to recognize when something is not working? And recognize it also understand that we're surrounded by other possibilities?

Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah, it you know, it kind of closes you get pretty myopic when a lot of that stuff gets stuck in the back of the refrigerator. And once you clear it out, and you have the willingness to clear it out, you realize you've made room for either more, or you've made room to see what you have better, and say, Hey, these are the things that I use, why did I buy that other stuff? I didn't really need it anyway. Right? So that's a great example. Well,

Ron Schultz
innovation is also a notion of, of not only what is missing, but what can we put in that place of something that's missing? Yes. But it's not necessarily that there's a part missing, when something new might go into that place? Well, let's, let's wrap

Greg Voisen
our interview up with this question. You know, the book is got a lot of great stories in it. It's an opportunity for people. And we'll put a link to Amazon to this.

Ron Schultz
Yeah, also emergent for that emergent publications.com, because that link

Greg Voisen
to them as well, we'll do both. So go and get a copy of opening boundaries, it's going to give you an opportunity to have some insights, the open your mind, about new possibilities about way of thinking, new ways of thinking, Iran, all the stories, the ideas, the wisdom about complexity, what are three takeaways that you would like to leave our listeners with? That would help them thrive? In a world of complexity? What three takeaways from this? You know, we've been almost on for 50 minutes. Now. What? What would you like to tell the listeners?

Ron Schultz
Well, first of all, you have to things change, you're gonna have to be willing to be open to that change process. And understand that any, any kind of adaptive system that you're involved in is going to change. And if you do that, then it's, it's crucial to be able to look at your models, rules and behaviors, and understand that there they are in constant relationship to each other. And then when the model changes, which is which are trying to produce according to your own principles of the organization, when your model changes, you also have to change the rules that govern the behaviors that are put in place to create them. And if you don't, that's the greatest downfall. And that's, that's one of the most important aspects of this process, because of what we were talking about in terms of a formulation and inform what happens when we formulate our ideas, and we solidify that we locked into that solidification, all the potential and all the limitations of that of that process. And if we formulate and solidify a too much, those limitations can overtake the possibilities. And then we arrived at on a ride. So it's really important to be able to open to the, to the processes that are around us to be open to the to change our, our culture, our models are constantly changing, be willing to change the rules, that we cover our behaviors, and so that we can get one of those if we can do that, we can do that. Well, I think,

Greg Voisen
again, it's exposure for remind listeners to find In alternative ways of approaching, whether it's a problem, or it's an opportunity to look at open boundaries as a way to creating business innovation, through this complexity that they're probably dealing with. And the book does a very good job ah, undoubtedly dealing with. Yeah, undoubtedly everybody is. But the book gives us this great opportunity where people will look at systems the way they might be thinking, stories that other people have. So Ron, thanks for being on insight, personal growth. Thanks for spending this time with us. Here's the book. We'll put a link. We'll have a link to our Merchant publications as well. We'll have one to Amazon, and Namaste to you. Thanks for being on. Thanks for taking the time. Appreciate it. My pleasure.

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