A truly inspirational man – Marshall Goldsmith, has joined me in today’s podcast to share his stories of success and to talk about his new book entitled The Earned Life: Lose Regret, Choose Fulfillment.

Marshall is the only two-time Thinkers 50 #1 Leadership Thinker in the World. He has been ranked as the World’s #1 Executive Coach and Top Ten Business Thinker for eight years and was even chosen as the inaugural winner of the Lifetime Award for Leadership by the Harvard Institute of Coaching.

Marshall also is the author or editor of 41 books which have sold over 2.5 million copies, been translated into 32 languages and become listed bestsellers in 12 countries. I got a great opportunity to have a talk with him about one of his masterpieces and his most personal and powerful work to date – The Earned Life: Lose Regret, Choose Fulfillment.

In this book, Marshall offers a dazzling but simple approach that accommodates both our persistent need for achievement and the inescapable “stuff happens” unfairness of life. It’s packed with illuminating stories from his own legendary career as a coach to some of the world’s highest-achieving leaders.

If you want to learn more about Marshall and his amazing works, you may click here to access his website.

I hope you enjoy this engaging interview with Marshall Goldsmith. Happy listening!

THE BOOK

In The Earned Life, Marshall Goldsmith challenges your unproductive attachment to outcomes and reveals the key to living unbound by regret, by helping you connect to something greater than the isolated and fleeting achievements of careerism:

“We are living an earned life when the choices, risks, and effort we make in each moment align with an overarching purpose in our lives, regardless of the eventual outcome.”

That’s the definition of an earned life. But for many of us, that pesky final phrase is a stumbling block: “regardless of the eventual outcome.” Not being attached to the outcome goes against everything we’re taught about achievement and fulfillment in modern society.

THE AUTHOR

Dr. Marshall Goldsmith has been recognized as one of the Top Ten Business Thinkers in the World and the top-rated executive coach at the Thinkers50 ceremony in London since 2011. Published in 2015, his book Triggers is a Wall Street Journal and New York Times #1 Bestseller! He’s also the author of New York Times best seller and #1 Wall Street Journal Business Book What Got You Here Won’t Get You There, winner of the Harold Longman Award as Best Business Book of the Year.

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Marshall Goldsmith Interview

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth and the man across the table here actually, in Nashville, which you probably all recognize from his picture from being out on the internet is Marshall Goldsmith, good day Marshall, how are you?

Marshall Goldsmith
Very happy to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Greg Voisen
Namaste to you as well. I appreciate you taking the time. I learned more about you in the earned life than I earned that I learned from the other books. So it was it was really good. And I'm going to let my listeners who don't know much about you just give you a brief little bio. Dr. Marshall Goldsmith has been recognized as one of the top 10 Business Thinkers in the World, and top rated executive coach at the thinker's 50 ceremony in London since 2011. Seems like so long ago, published in 2015 books triggers is Wall Street is a Wall Street Journal and New York Times bestseller. He also is the author of The New York Times bestseller and number one journal business book, What Got You Here Won't Get You There, winner of the Harold Longman award at the best business book of the year. Well, you know, it's really a pleasure to have you back on the show. And especially about your book, do you have the earned life book behind I do right here the right steps because I never got a copy yet. But I did get a PDF of it. So thank you. And we are going to be talking about the earned life. And it's from regret to fulfillment. And I think that many of the listeners have always have had regrets. But let me start this off Marshall, because I looked at this as kind of an introspective. I've been studying Buddhism now for ever and ever. I'm a self-realization Devontae all my listeners know that. And I recognize the real that kind of fine line in spirituality and coaching that one does, in this book has been written. As I say, when you're reflecting on your personal life at an age in life, where I think we all do some introspection, I'll be 68 years old this July. I appreciate the story that you told the introduction about Richard and his regrets in life, just this character, somebody you coached. You state that any decent advice book aims to help readers overcome a perennial challenge all of your books had some perennial challenge in them, you are helping people to overcome you state that the challenge you're tackling with this book is regret. I think that's true. But I think you're tackling a lot more than regret with the book. After years of coaching executives, everybody from Alan Mulally to wherever which I'm going to ask you a question about Alan. You, you've heard all kinds of people give you regrets. And what shift in perspective do people need to embrace, to either eliminate or reduce the regrets that they have?

Marshall Goldsmith
Well, if you look at the concept of what leads to great life, they're to me not that many variables. And one that I don't talk about in the book is you need to be healthy, too I don't talk about in the book is you need to have like a lower middle class income above that it doesn't go up or down much on happiness. And you need to have great relationships with people your love. Assuming that you're healthy, you got a good relationship with who you love, and you got a middle class income. What matters? Well, to me, there's three things that I talked about in the book. First, is our aspiration, you need some sort of higher purpose, why am I here? Why am I doing this? Why are you on this call? There needs to be some higher purpose than has to be religion just needs to be some answer to the question, Why am I doing this to then you need to achievement, your ambition. And your ambitions are these achievements that have a time perspective, that hopefully are connected to this aspiration, and then three, your day to day actions, and that's the process of life. And if you do have higher aspirations and what you're doing every day, your level of achievement is connected to those aspirations. And you enjoy the process of life where you just won, you pretty much won the game of life. That's, and there may be more but I'm unaware of what it is. You pretty much won that game of life. And if you look at the people in history, most of our ancestors, they lived in the action zone. I mean, they were doing day to day things, their life was pretty much controlled. They did what was in front of them they tried to eat. They were just living, not bad or good. I just was. Some people are lost in their heads. They're living up in the clouds. They have very high level aspirations, but they don't achieve anything. The people I've coached over the years, and the people that inspired this book are achievers. And they face the great challenges of achievers. And we never think about achievers as having challenges. Well, they do. And that's what the book is about often is when you get lost in achievement. And one of the most important points in the book is you never, ever place your value as a human being on the results you achieve.

Greg Voisen
Well, I'd say this topic is obviously something we could discuss at length and infinitum, because it's such a dynamic topic. But I did a podcast with April Rennie not that long ago, and she sent out a letter that said, you know, people are running from something to something. And I thought that was an interesting perspective, because hers was all about thriving in this current time, you know, you wrote this during the pandemic. And you were still in La Jolla, then. Right. And so, you know, I always question when you've was such an interesting person, because you've been with so many people face to face that question about running from something to something? What would what would you say? Because they're high achievers, they're running to something. So what are they? What most likely, or in your estimation, are they running from?

Marshall Goldsmith
Well, in the COVID period, we had 50 or so people every weekend, my friend Mark Thompson has been six hours. So we spent a total of 500 hours and they would rotate the group so they're a different group every weekend with these 50 people. And it was amazing, because you know, these are like I could tell you they were the president World Bank. And you know, the head of St. Jude's Hospital and the pelvis saw the basketball player in quarters Martin the football star and tell him to Broadway star and head of the Olympics and rock on and on and on. And these are like, Great achievers. One thing, though, is it's very lonely. There's an old saying, you mentioned what are you running from? It's lonely at the top. It used to be lonely at the top. Today, it is much lonely, or at the top, it's lonelier than it's ever been. People don't have a sense of community. They don't have a support group. They don't have anyone to talk to one guy sit in a group one hour a week, I get that guy a human.

Greg Voisen
And that one hour that he had with you guys.

Marshall Goldsmith
Yeah, that was it to be human. You get to get up and act like a human being. You don't have to put on a show for an hour.

Greg Voisen
I love it. I love it. Now you state that your premise is that our lives toggle back and forth between two emotional polarities. And on one end of the polarity of fulfillment on the other end, you have regret and then you've got a line that goes back and forth. Can you speak with us about the six for fillers? Because I think the biggest one is happiness. In my personal, humble opinion, after having done 900 podcasts with people on personal growth, I would say happiness is probably the biggest one that we can seek to embrace in our lives, the fleeting fulfiller of happiness. Because in the end, you know, nobody's going to say to me or you. I wish I spent another hour at the corporate office. I love the Dalai Lama's comment in I say this on many of these shows because he's quote hangs on a wall. You're going to be known by who you loved, how many people loved you and how much you let go. And the reality is, that's so true, because you talk about in this book, too, and I'll go there and in a few minutes. This impermanence and non-attachment, sometimes for CEOs, that's a really difficult and difficult one to get. So can you speak about those six fulfill orders? And how we can find that big fleeting one which is happiness?

Marshall Goldsmith
Let me start with the happiness then I'll go to the others and just remind me to go the others. Okay. If you look at happiness, basically the Great Western diseases I will be happy when I get the money status, BMW when I get the condiment and when I have this achievement, I will be happy when? Well, that's the Great Western disease. It's a great western myth is once I do this, what the book what The Book says, once you get this, they lived happily ever after. The type that book is called a fairy tale. There's a reason it's called a fairy tale that's not life. In life, we are constantly reinventing ourselves. We're constantly starting over welcome constantly returning our life and, and the essence of Buddhism as I practice it, and there many schools of Buddhism I don't make any judgment on someone else's school. Yeah, is basically this Buddha was brought up very rich and his father thought you're going to be fine if you get more. And he kept giving him more and protected and we lived in a bubble, he was able to sneak out three times where he learned you get old, you get sick and you die, shit happens and you're going to have all the money in the world old sick and die be poor, old sick and dies, it is more stuff not doing it. He tried to be happy with less he starved himself he lives like a hermit, you know, we learned didn't work either. What the Buddha finally realized you can never be happy with nor can ever be happy with less, there's only one thing in life, you can ever be happy with what you have. So only one time you can ever be happy now, only one place you're going to ever be happy that would be here. Where's nirvana? is listening to a podcast right now you and me This is it. It's not someplace else is out there some lizards, it's here.

Greg Voisen
Good. Thank you for that plug. That's great. But what you know, I say is to the Four Noble Truths. And if you look at the first one, the Buddha always said they're suffering in the end of suffering. There's only one person that could cause the end of suffering, if that pursuit of something is causing the suffering, right? The only thing that somebody can do to mitigate that is to be okay with them. Who they are.

Marshall Goldsmith
And also be don't get fixated on outcomes results, right. Because the again, we have been bombarded with the Great Western art form, which goes like this, there is a person has said, so said they spend money, they buy a product and they become happy. Well, how many? It's called a commercial. Have you ever heard that before? How many times? How many 1000s of times hundreds of 1000s of times the same message over and over and over? The message is happiness is out there. Right? No, it isn't, as in here. Look, they took a great study, one group of people became quadriplegics and the other group won the lottery Three years later, there wasn't much difference in happiness.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. And you know, the conundrum for you. I'm thinking is here is a success coach speaking with high achievers about non attachment and impermanence. And, and I bet they all get it intellectually. Okay, they get it intellectually. But is there any way you can help them turn the dial down so that it becomes much easier to live with that because that isn't a concept. It's a concept that's kind of foreign to achievers,

Marshall Goldsmith
or it's not kind of foreign? It's exceptionally for Yeah. It's exceptionally foreign to not just achievers. It's exceptionally foreign people in the West period. Yes. We have been so conditioned that you know, happiness is a function of getting something. Yeah, let me give you an example of a guy in our group Sofie Bacall. Now Safi has got an IQ equals a mine and yours combined, probably. And he has PhD physics from Stanford. He wrote a book called loon shots, he is made 10s of millions of dollars. He's,

Greg Voisen
he was on my podcast you've met Savi consulted the

Marshall Goldsmith
President's, you know, on and on and on and on. Safi said he had a great realization in our groups. He used to think that happiness was a dependent variable based on achievement. He said, he finally realized you can achieve a lot and be happy, you achieve nothing and be happy. You achieve a lot and be miserable, and you can achieve nothing and be miserable. Happiness is an independent variable from achievement. This was such a great breakthrough for him. As he kept thinking once he achieved something else, he was going to be happier. I told him Safi, how much you got to achieve here before you declare victory? Let's say you already got a PhD in physics from Stanford, you need to get to, you're already worth 10s of millions, even hundreds of millions making difference. You've already successfully started four companies and you get happy after five. And you've already consulted with a few presidents. Are you more no matter if you're already a 99.99 on achievement?

Greg Voisen
You really Marshall. I like what Dr. Seek Morales says about happiness as a guy at Columbia talks about I know him, he's one of my 100 coaches. Okay, so he says you kind of start with having it isn't something you get when you have to just have it. In other words, it isn't something so much you pursue, you have to imbibe it. In other words, it's, it's part of Marsha you see it, you know, life is good. But you know that you end that because that's a mantra for you. You know, Marshall Smith's mantra Life is good. No more. So, there's this TEDx Talk Catherine Schultz, she did in 2011. About regret. She said that regret is the emotion we experience when we think that our present situation could be better or happier underline and if we had done something different to pass you on to state that regret is totally in our control. Can you speak to the list speak with us about the advice you gave. And the reason I picked out all and Alan Malala here is because I was in an event in San Diego and I met Alan, I wasn't certainly his coach, the loveliest man I'd ever met in my life, the most tremendous speaker I'd ever heard at this event in at the Convention Center in San Diego. But he had regrets about leaving Boeing and taking the position of CEO of Ford. How did you coach him through those regrets? I mean, this book well,

Marshall Goldsmith
actually, Elon doesn't have a lot of regrets as a person. And I think one reason he doesn't have regrets is he thinks if I didn't do something my dad regretted, and then he does it. So I think he's a person actually with very low levels of regret in life and of all people I've coached. I mean, I've learned so much from him. Well, one thing, by the way, a little bit of a diversion. One thing I'm proud of, in my book, if you look at the endorsements, is the first paragraph. The first paragraph in the endorsement section is me talking about how great they were not every time and how much I've learned from my wonderful clients. And you know, how lucky I am to be able to work with people like Alan, who's just a wonderful human being. And I'd say, you know, Elon is a great case study, he does three things at the same time. One, I'm working on new book with him right now. So one thing he does is he has a higher purpose in life. He's not doing this for money, he's got plenty of money and status, he doesn't need that. And he's still working at achieving things. He's working at a book and refining what he does. And he's happy. I'll tell you, his day to day happiness score be very, very high. I've known him. I've known him for 25 years, I'm not seeing him be unhappy in 25 years. So this guy is a really great role model for everything I teach. And that's the, you know, simultaneous pursuit of these things, what you can do. One other one about regret, though, is this. One of the parts of the book I really like is the every breath paradigm. Yeah, every time I take a breath, it's a new me Buddhist concept of impermanence. Every time I take a breath, it's a new me. Well, I tell people to do this everybody listening right now. Take a deep breath. Take a deeper breath. Now, every time I take a breath, it's a new me. So think new me. Everything that happened before the second in your life was done by an infinite set of people called the previous me's. Now, think of all the gifts those previous years have given to you that's here now. Think about the people they've helped. Think about how hard they tried. Will Feeny group of people do that many nice things? What would you say to those nice people?

Greg Voisen
Thank you,

Marshall Goldsmith
thank you. Now did they make a little mistake or to let it go? Let it go. Let it go. And don't sit there and criticize the previous versions of your yourself for being who they are. You know, LinkedIn, one of my most popular LinkedIn quotes is forgive other people for being who they are. And forgive yourself for expecting that they'd be somebody else. Well, we can apply that to our own life, forgive the previous versions of you for being who they were, and forgiving yourself for regretting that they weren't someone else.

Greg Voisen
So, self-forgiveness is a big one here, little sign on my desk. It's probably backwards, but it's on my desk all day long. I'll show you something else in a minute as well. So you state the official policy on regret in the pages of this book is to accept the inevitable but reduce it reduce its frequency, right? Which means we need to create a life of fulfillment we you know, we talked about happiness, six, the reason we didn't get all of us sick, so maybe we should go back and you can give me the other five. All right, well, the first one

Marshall Goldsmith
is, you need to be having a purpose, I'm going to do micro and macro. at a macro level, you need a purpose. And on a day to day levels, you need to be setting goals or objectives aligned with that purpose. Then the second thing is you need to be making progress toward achieving things related to that purpose, then you need to find meaning, every day you need to find meaning in life. And by the way, finding meaning doesn't mean you have a meaningful job, it means you create meaning where you are. One of my good friends is Gary Rich, who was CEO of WD 40, they had some the highest scores on meaning in the entire world of any corporation higher than children's hospitals. Now, you can't say making lubricants is more important than curing sick children. Yet, they found meaning they created meaning every day. The next one is Be happy, being happy and then they in other words are building positive relationships with people. And then the final one is being fully engaged and fully engaged in what you do. And if you that's about it. Now one thing I always teach is a daily question process every day if you just give yourself a test on in the questions, I'll start with a phrase my daughter Kelly told me this, I'm proud of my daughter. She had a PhD from Yale. And she's a full professor at Vanderbilt. Now. That's why I live in Nashville. Kelly taught me this, and asked questions to begin with, did I do my best to? Why you can't blame someone else? Is if you ask, were you happy? And someone says no, you know why it's their fault? If yes, did I do my best to be happy? Given the situation, did I do my best to find happiness? Did I do my best to create meaning that I do my best to ask those six questions every day? Just by asking those questions. Our research is amazing. You know, 3030 something 34% of people got better at everything. Two thirds got better at four things. 91% got better at something almost nobody gets worse. Why every day, these questions get us to focus on the one thing in life that we can control. Did I do my best? And by the way, doesn't say you were happy? Did you even try? Did you even think about being happy? In my book triggers that I talked about interviewing five or three medical doctors, three of the smartest people I've ever met Dr. Jim Kim, simultaneous MD and PhD with honors from Harvard in anthropology and five years, became president Darby College, head of partners and health and then President the World Bank, Dr. Raj Shah, who was head of the USA ID and is now head of the Rockefeller Foundation. And Dr. John Noseworthy, was the CEO of the Mayo Clinic. So you know, when the brains were first passed out, none of these guys are near the back of the line. All three individually asked the question, how would you score an average day? Did I do my best to be happy? Ultimately, the same answer? never dawned on me to try be happy. Never thought about it. Too busy achieving things. So I asked him, did it dawn on your you're going to die? Did they cover that medical school death? Did they cover that topic? He said, Yeah, they brought up that death thing. I said, Do you think this is a silly question or trivial question? I said, No, it is a very important question I forgot to ask. It's a very important question. I just got to as well ask yourself the question today, am I doing my best to be happy today? Am I making the best of it. And by the way, I'm a great believer in the Bhagavad Gita, the Bhagavad Gita. And you know, the Bhagavad Gita is pretty clear, it talks about somebody has a choice, bad and worse. Sometimes, you got a choice in life bad and worse, pick bad, make the best of it. You got a choice between bad and worse, take bad, make the best of it, you're not going to doing better, you're not going to turn bad to good, just make the best of the bad?

Greg Voisen
Well, that whole concept around, you know, look for 100% responsibility for we take 100% When we should take 100% responsibility for how we feel our emotions, our actions, everything. And once you get that, that you realize that when the other thing is around your beliefs and the attachments and that and what you were talking about impermanence, because finitude I know. So well, just this last two years, I lost two brothers, not to COVID. But you know, you were asking those doctors something, hey, in medical school, did you guys actually, you know, think about this never dawned on us to be happy? Well, you should be happy when you go to work that way. Now, you tell three great stories in the introduction. And I thought it was great, because one of your guys was named Leonard. That's my legal name, first name Leonard. And Leonard was the only one who got it right, actually. And you tell the stories about three people that you coached. And Leonard was able to succeed at accepting what was and eliminate his regrets. What advice would you give to our listeners about non attachment and eliminating beating themselves up over their regrets?

Marshall Goldsmith
Well, the first thing is forgive yourself. Yeah. And then what happens is we feel bad, then we feel bad about feeling bad, then we feel bad about feeling bad about feeling bad. Well, you don't have to do that. And whatever you did in the past, you did. Right, let it go. You know, and here's why Buddhism is so hard to understand for people in the West. The essence of Buddhism is now and when I say there's only one second in life, you need to learn to be happy. It's now people that means that they think it means I have to be happy every second. And I started saying well, what if so and so happens, I might not be happy, but totally misses the point. The point is not you have to be happy every second is the opposite of that point. So one seconds need to be happy now. Right? Just focus on now. If you're going to sit there and worry about something might happen or might not happen in five years, you're going to get bummed out by that month. All right, you're not going to be happy. Well, you're not living now. You're living in a dream. So really, I think important to focus on now. Now, now,

Greg Voisen
well, and I it, and I concur with you and I and I remember, Jim Laura was back on the show, again, not that long ago. His book was a power of full engagement, if you remember. Yes. And, and it was around energy management. And the reason I'm mentioning this is because so much of our energy is spent, you know, I this kind of sound like a broken record here. But the imagined future and the dead past? Well, you know, the reality is, you know, when I do meditation retreats in the orcas islands, they have these monks that come. And they say, Well, what do you, you know, one of my friends is, what would you guys want? Because they had no watches, they said, well, we'd actually like to have a watch. And they said, Well, why would you want to watch? And they put a skull and crossbones at the top of the bed, and they wanted a watch, right? I thought this is a great story. And they said, well, because we're trying to figure out, or what we would like to know is how much time we have left. Right? Not what time it is. So interesting. Now, the operative definition of the earned life is we are living in earned life when the choices risks and efforts we make in each moment, each moment align with an overarching purpose in our lives, which you just said, regardless of the eventual outcome outcomes, right? You state that something truly earned makes three simple requirements of us. Can you speak with the listeners about the three simple requirements of the earned life?

Marshall Goldsmith
What are they?

Greg Voisen
Maybe you don't, don't remember, I don't know that took it out of the bag.

Marshall Goldsmith
I cover so many things, you got to realize it's three requirements and sixes,

Greg Voisen
tell our listeners is Marshall doesn't know. So go buy the book. How's that? When you buy every book, when you buy the book, you have this free course. Yeah, I want to mention that maybe this is a great time to mention it. He's got a full on mean email. Yes. So when you buy the book, you send him an email, and he's going to give you this free online course that you've got, right? And I would encourage everybody to go to Marshall goldsmith.com. And we'll just skip that question. Because it doesn't really matter. But the reality is, the answer is in the book. So if you want if you want the answer, you got to go in the book. And the reason is, I didn't write down the three statements, Marshall. Our sense of fulfillment, happiness simply doesn't last, that we've that the earned life is imperative and a fragile vessel to contain our wishes and desires for an earned life. Speak with the listeners about the influence that the philosophy has Buddhism has had on your perspective, about attachment and impermanence in life, because you started studying it when you were 18. You put a little cliff note in the bottom of the book. I don't think in any of your other books, of course, I could be wrong, where you actually disclosed that. Okay. But this time at age, what's your age now?

Marshall Goldsmith
7373. So

Greg Voisen
you and I are five years apart, you start to let people see in the window a little bit more and see where your philosophy is coming from. And I thought that was really, really nice of you. Because I didn't know that about you. But when I read it, I assumed that that was where you're coming from. So tell our listeners if you would what, what up there with the impermanence and the attachment?

Marshall Goldsmith
Well, as a coach, I use Buddhism all the time. Let me tell you a few ways. One is feedforward. Buddha said only do what I teach you. If it works for you. If it doesn't work for you, it's okay. Just don't do it. That is so freeing. So in my program with these 50 grade people, every weekend, they would practice feed forward over and over. Each person says, Here's what I feel good about. Here's what I want to do better than say, give me ideas for the future, not feedback about the past. Everyone gives them ideas for a future and they say thank you, then another person, other person or the person, other person. People love this because it's positive, it's upbeat, it's helpful, and nobody's getting judged. No one, they're accountable, but they're not judged. Nobody's been judged by anything. So that's one element of Buddhism I use. Another element of Buddhism I use it's really central is that we're constantly reinventing ourselves. So Coach, people will say things like this. Oh, I'm a bad listener. I can't listen. I've never been able to listen, I can't listen. So I look in their ears say, Well, you got some stuck in there. Why can't you listen? Well we talk about ourselves is we if we have incurable genetic defects who will last permanently Throughout our lives, as opposed to saying, you know, in the past, I haven't listened very much. But in a future where I can listen, I'm not stuck with this. And it's very important point, if you don't do this, let's say your self-image is I'm a bad listener, and I'm your coach. And let's say you work very hard. And people say you're a good listener. If you don't work on the way you define yourself as a human being, you're not, you're going to feel on the inside, you feel like a phony. You know what you're going to say, that's not the real me. That's not the real me. You see, the real me is a bad listener. That's the real me. I just acted like a good listener. But that's not real. You have this weird idea of this real me that goes through life never changing, as opposed to saying, Look, to me, that's here today is not the same. That was 10 years ago, or five years ago, or last week. One story in the book that people love is the story of the guy. And he's with his wife, and they had a great, great weekend with the kids, and they're driving back home. And the wife starts going on, well, 10 years ago, you didn't do this, and this, and you could have done this. And we could have had this and that. And you know what he said, You're right. I'm not the same person as I was 10 years ago. I really think I'm a better person than it was 10 years ago. And you know, that person 10 years ago, made some mistakes. I'm not the person. And his wife said, You're right. You're right. You're not that person, you're a better person. Why am I bringing up what some guy did 10 years ago, that guy's not in this car right now. That guy's not in this car. You're not that guy. You're a different person. And I think that's a great way to look at life is, you know, we're not who we were 10 years ago, or five years ago, or one hour ago. We're a different person. And that's it. We're constantly evolving in life.

Greg Voisen
Well, what a great introspection because awareness is the only thing that creates that So her question actually allowed us an opportunity for a dialogue that then allowed the two of them to kind of come together to have this realization and that awareness. We don't ever know who's going to give us that awareness are going to pop the question. Well, one thing that I've become good at is asking question after having done 900 And something is bought gas. Use. You spoke on the way

Marshall Goldsmith
that's an interesting element of the book. It says the lost art of asking.

Greg Voisen
Right, I did see that in there. I've got I got

Marshall Goldsmith
an exercise for everybody. Are you ready? Yes, I am a fun exercise. Alright. Alright. I asked in my classes I was do you think customer satisfaction is important? Yes. Should we ask our customers for input? Yes. Should we listen to our customers? Yes. You have a husband, wife or partner at home? Yes. Have you been asking that person? What can I do to better partner? No. So I have people take out everybody who's listening, take out your cell phone, and send a text message to your husband, wife or partner and ask one question, What can I do to be a better partner? Yeah, it's a great exercise

Greg Voisen
in and you know what half of them would fall off their chair? Because they're wondering, where was this person today? Who gave

Marshall Goldsmith
hilarious things? Let me tell you some of my favorite responses. One is who has stolen my husband's cell phone? Are you drunk? You know, is this message intended for me? Who have you been sleeping with?

Greg Voisen
Exactly? Yeah, I can imagine that you get all those in more? Well, it's, it's, it's fascinating. And the book is wonderful because it gives an opportunity to people to deep dive in introspection, and look at regret and look at fulfillment in their life and look at the continuum and look at ways to do that. And, you know, you speak with the listeners, if you would, we you mentioned it the Great Western disease of what Buddha called The Hungry Ghost. I don't think a lot of people have heard the term the hungry ghosts. So more importantly, please give the listeners your advice on how to avoid getting sucked into the mire of life and living the illusion. Because the reality here is if we're going to go with Buddhism, we might as well go a little bit deeper even here now. Because this this maya, this thing that sucks people in to the fact that they believe that what it is I know many of my listeners know the term. Some people listening may not right, but could you could you give them some advice about how to avoid that. How to avoid that trap. Because you said a minute ago, you go buy a new car, you get the Tesla you buy the house on the hill, you buy the bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, you went down a whole list of things, you're going to be happy. Right? Well, that's the Maya that I'm talking about here.

Marshall Goldsmith
Right? into me, the key is as your journey through life, you just ask yourself, look, am I doing my best? Is this something that's related to my long term ambition in life? And then you ask yourself, you know, am I enjoying this ride? am I enjoying what I'm doing right now? If the answer is yes, that's it. Now, the results are going to be what they're going to be. You don't have total control over the results of much of anything. You could get run over by car tomorrow, you didn't control COVID, you know, the results are going to be what they're going to be. I'm not saying you don't try to achieve things. Yet you don't place your value as a human being based on achievement. It is a fool's game. It is a fool's game. If you saw the bios of the 50 people I spent COVID period with every weekend, you'd think these people if achievement would make you happy, they'd all be dancing off the ceiling every day. They're all in 99.99 in terms of achievement, right? Well, it's not bad to achieve. On the other hand, you achieve to achieve, you don't achieve to be happy. You don't achieve to find peace, finding peace to find peace, as Sreekumar said, be happy to be happy. But don't believe that I'm going to achieve something's going to make me happy because it never ends. The Hungry Ghost. The Hungry Ghost is you're always eating but you're never full. Or whatever you achieve. What's the next thing next year? Next year? Albert, Burleigh Pfizer? How was your year? Hey, well, came up with vaccine good employee engagement. Hi, good book. Good see of the year. Good. Good, good. Good. What's your problem next year? I think anybody that bought that stock cares if he came up with a vaccine. Now, you think they care how what they did last year? Zero. Next year, there's always going to be next year. And look at this. Michael Phelps 25 gold medals. What do you think about doing killing himself?

Greg Voisen
Yeah, yeah. Interesting. He's been on that. advocating that application for mental health, which is very cool. So that being the case, you know, look? If not, if that is the case, that is the case. We know that you're so calling that the Great Western disease. And I concur. That is it. Getting there and then being able to sustain this level of happiness, you're saying there's a continuum, it goes back and forth, be able to live with that be able to accept it. So and I think the key is, and I might be wrong here, but I obviously think I'm on the right track. It's around accepting where you are. And just saying that's okay. I am where I am. I am where I am. Right? I

Marshall Goldsmith
am where I am. And you know, I mean, my last podcast with my friend Dave Chang was just a great guy. And his call colleague Chris it Well, yeah. I said, What about our typical listeners? They're not like us. Just describe 127 years old tech guy Berkeley, striving to get ahead looking at you think it easy for that guy to talk? You know, he's rich, he's written famous books. He works to great people blah, blah, blah. Easy for you to say as a you know what? Had kid so I'm I don't have 45 years. Yeah. I don't have 45 years. No one's he wasn't best-selling books. Okay, give me 45 years, we got to deal. You're going to have the damn book as All right. Well, you don't look at life and say I wish I was him. Yeah, you really want to be 73? Maybe not. I mean, I'm happy being me. But I don't think if I were 27, I want to be 73 You have been 27

Greg Voisen
Most definitely. Now, the every Beth paradigm connect to living and earned life. You say? I say how does the every Beth paradigm connect to the living in life, you say that connection is immediate and direct as flipping a switch to fill a dark room with light. And where there's darkness the light serves the darkness. If we accept that everything of value that we have earned is impermanent, subject to the whims and in differences of the world, which you just mentioned. We must also accept the prized possessions needed to consequently re earned practically on a daily and hourly basis, perhaps as frequently as every breath. That's right. Can you explain what you mean? I think you have but you know what, there's something about repeating things three times. And you understand this as being a great public speaker. You know, you repeat something three times and sometimes people get it right. So,

Marshall Goldsmith
well, I'm asked a question is Buddhism about reincarnation? To me Buddhism is about nothing but reincarnation. Everything is reincarnation, every breath is reincarnation. Every breath is a new me. Every breath is a new me and we get a new start, we get a chance to start over. And we get a chance to be something different. And we get that we get that chance. And I think the key is when you look at life that way. It makes life a lot different. It's a very nonwestern thing. Let me give you an example. Some people says Does that mean you don't care about achievement? No, I didn't say that. Let's take the example of I didn't I didn't tell the story of the golfer in the bureau candidate know, the golfer and American. So there's the guy in the country club, and he's got a chance to win his little Club Championship. He's teeing off on a team. In front of him. There's a drunk people drinking and making noise very annoying. And he breathed concentrate. It's a perfect drive. The perfect drive. Looks good. But then Ulsan it hits something goes into the rough, terrible life. He walks toward the ball and what does he see a bear? Can the idiots in front of him have left a beer can? He's very angry. How could they have done this? What is it called for me to do? Stop and breathe? stop and breathe. Forget about those people. Forget about the drive. Forget about the results. Forget about winning the Club Championship, come up with a strategy of what you want to do. You walk to the ball, and you hit the shot in front of you. The other thing about the golfer is enjoy the process. You're in some little country club. You're not a pro golfer. Enjoy, what are you there for, you're not going to be Arnold Palmer, have a good time, have a good time, hit the shot, make peace and move on. Well make sense. You don't necessarily hit a worst shot, you probably had a better shot. Because you're not focused on the past which you can change. You're not focused on the future, which may or may not happen. You're actually just focused on one thing just hit the shot. You know, Coach K that coach at Duke is a good thing. He watches a player miss a shot. And they act sad or sad or angry. What do you say next play. Next play he watches a player make a great shot his job, no shirt. No, he says next play. You got to like, you got to let go the past,

Greg Voisen
I think life as you know, and we get to be the age we are. It's all about the next play. And all in all you can do is pay homage and respect to all the plays prior to this play. Meaning this play in this moment, this podcast in this moment. Hey, look, I did 900 And something before this one, this is 900. And something this is like this is great. I couldn't be any better. And I think that's the way you have to look at it. And that way, what happens is happiness just happens. Because you're doing that. So you created a two letter exercise for people that intellectually understood the Everett bet paradigm, but haven't developed the muscle memory that makes it natural and instinctive in their lives. And that's an important point. Can you explain the two letter exercise and what our listeners can expect to experience? If they engage in that exercise? And it's yes, actually, remember

Marshall Goldsmith
that went the exercise two letters. One letter is you write a letter to a previous version of yourself. And you write a letter and you say thank you to this previous version of you, thank you for learning to speak Chinese or thank you for studying Buddhism or whatever it happens to be. You think my life today is better because of this thing you did back then. And you're like you said, pay homage a good phrase, you're paying homage to that person, you're saying thank you previous mean, thank you for doing that for me. And then a secondary exercise, you write a letter to the future you and you say to the future, you know, I'm going to make some investments right now. I'm investing in you. And here's what I hope happens as a result of my investments. So you're really given the future you some ideas of here's what I'm doing now for you. And here's what I hope works for you. And here's what I'd like to see you do. I think it's a great exercise. The negative example I used as the CEO who basically said I worked 80 hours a week for 40 years with one goal. So my kids would never have to work as hard as I did. Then he said the worst thing I could have ever done for my children, for myself, for my family and for life. Kids are spoiled. They have no work ethic. They don't like me. I don't know my wife. bad use of 40 years.

Greg Voisen
A long time but don't have regret. Dude, if that's where his head is at, and I get that that's very, very powerful. But what's powerful is the awareness not to have the regret about what it was you did right now? Yeah. So you spent 40 years doing that you did it. But that doesn't mean that's the way you have to be going forward. Change. Because those previous

Marshall Goldsmith
US gave you a lot of money. Yeah. gave you some neat stuff. Yeah. How can you take what they gave you and make the best of it?

Greg Voisen
Right. Right. You know, you, you I've done. You said, you spent eight days a year teaching leadership course at Goldman Sachs executives and their top clients. You work with Mark Trebek, I think it is, Teddy said to turn at Goldman, you tell his great story about creating his own life and what was stopping him from claiming his new career in life? Because this one was actually a shift in careers. Total shift.

Marshall Goldsmith
Yeah. So Mark is just a great friend of mine, just a wonderful guy. And was mega successful at Goldman Sachs. He was, I think, one of the top five people in the company when they did the IPO. And if you know what that means, that means you don't ever have to work again, you get more money he's going to spend in many lifetimes. So then mark gets this opportunity to be the CEO of the Nature Conservancy, which he really would love. But he's second, well, what will they think of me? And I told him what he has talked about change his life, is it live your own life? Who are they don't live some other person's version of your life? It's your life. And don't sit there and say, what would they think of me? Number one, they don't care. You think they're going to hold it against you? Because you're the CEO of the Nature Conservancy. No, you leave Goldman Sachs, you create a little more space, somebody thinks your customers and move into your office, they're probably all happy going anyway, they don't care. And you're not doing good deeds. God bless you. You don't have to apologize for that. Well, you don't live your own life. It was great, because a good boy wants to live my own life.

Greg Voisen
Very good. It was a great story in the book, by the way. Well look in wrapping the interview up, and then I'm going to show you something. The urn life, it has so much practical advice and guidance for individuals wanting to live a fulfilled life without regrets. What three takeaways, either something we've already talked about, or something that we haven't talked about, would you leave the listeners with? As we kind of wrap up this podcast?

Marshall Goldsmith
I say, I would take away one takeaway is have a higher aspiration, have an answer to the question, Why? Why am I doing this? Why. And then number two, focus on your ambitions or achievement. So you're doing something about that aspiration. It's not just a pipe dream, you're actually achieving something that's helping you get there and three, enjoy the process. And in my life, my higher aspiration is, I just want to help as many people as I can, in the limited time I have left to do it and hopefully help them now. And then after I'm no longer with us. That's the higher aspiration doesn't have a target my, my immediate achievement is being honest with you.

Greg Voisen
But you're going to reincarnate martial, and then you're going to come back smarter, more handsome, and then you're going to write more, but wait

Marshall Goldsmith
a minute, smarter, maybe more handsome, that's got to be a stretch. Then and then the final thing you just have a good time Life is short. You know, my, my new research is not published yet indicates we're all going to be equally dead here. So I think yeah, I think it's a pretty safe bet. So yeah, just enjoy this process of life. And we're all going to die anyway, just enjoy the process of life. And so that's about it. And then, and again, no one can define meaning for you, but you, I can't tell you what's going to be meaningful for you. And I can't tell you what's going to make you happy. Those answers that look in here, whatever that is, for you do that. Whatever that is for you. You just do that. And as the mark person storage point, no one else can tell you that.

Greg Voisen
Well, Marshall, another wonderful book. I should stay that, you know, I know Mark Ritter is the co author has been on many of your books. Oh, I have four of them. Right? We have one. And I want to give you recognition because you know, behind the scenes, these books don't get written by themselves. I'm working on one right now with a mountain climber has climbed all the highest seven summits in Everest twice. And I've interviewed all these guys who've gone up and just climb in, you name it every mountain climber. And it's very interesting the correlation that we've talked about here. And you know, this, this, this whole concept and I'm just saying to write a good book. It is a huge project. And Marshall, I just want to commend mark and you Namaste to both of you Ever such a wonderful work, because it's articulated so well. And so well put together, easy to follow. Great book to read. And something that really gets people to think deep about their life, how they're living their life, and how they can better their life. And you've always done that with every book, but this one in particular, I think adds more. So, thank you. Thank you for doing that.

Marshall Goldsmith
Thank you. Thank you, and thank you for inviting me very much.

Greg Voisen
Oh, you're quite welcome. Namaste.

powered by

Joining me for today’s podcast is an award-winning and bestselling author Susan Shumsky. Dedicated her life to helping people take command of their lives in highly effective, powerful, positive ways, Susan is also a highly respected spiritual teacher and a professional speaker.

Definitely an achiever, Susan has already won 42 prestigious awards including First Place Ben Franklin Award. She also is the award-winning, best-selling author of 20 books in English and her books even have been published in 36 foreign editions.

One of her masterpieces is the main topic of our interview. It’s her book entitled Prosperity Meditations: Everyday Practices to Create an Abundant Life. In a nutshell, Prosperity Meditations is a simple guide filled with affirmations and meditations to attract abundance, success, wealth, and creativity instantly. It can help you manifest your fondest dreams and desires through the mental alchemy of meditation.

If you’re interested and want to know more about Susan and her amazing works, click here to visit her website.

I hope you enjoy and learned from this engaging interview with Susan Shumsky. Thank you and happy listening!

THE BOOK

Prosperity Meditations can help you develop a new, fresh, optimistic, and empowering attitude. It’s a simple guide filled with affirmations and meditations to attract abundance, success, wealth, and creativity instantly and by using its methods, you can change your belief about prosperity and thereby draw greater wealth into your life on all levels: spiritual, emotional, mental, physical, material, environmental, and planetary.

THE AUTHOR

An award-winning and bestselling author; a highly respected spiritual teacher and a professional speaker who takes time on teaching and inspiring people about meditation, prayer, affirmation, and intuition. She also has done over 700 speaking engagements and over 1,300 media appearances since her first book was published.

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and host of Inside Personal Growth. And we have Susan Shumsky, Doctor of Divinity joining us from Pennsylvania. We don't know where in Pennsylvania but she's, she's there. And we're going to be speaking with her today about her new book called Prosperity Meditations. And boy, considering the world we're living in today, we were just talking. We all could use this book. This is a book you should rush out and buy, to start to bring in more abundance into your life, everyday practices to create an abundant life. Susan, how are you this lovely, beautiful afternoon? It's obviously almost evening your time but how are you doing?

Susan Shumsky
I'm doing fantastic. How are you?

Greg Voisen
Wonderful. And we appreciate having you on the so show to share some of your wisdom and insight with our listeners about prosperity meditations. But most,

Susan Shumsky
thanks so much for inviting me gray.

Greg Voisen
Oh, you're quite welcome. You're quite welcome. I appreciate you. And I'm going to tell the listeners just a little bit about you. She does have a long bio at her website. And if you want to know more about Susan, you can go to divine revelation dot O R G r e v e l a t IO n dot O R G. That's the website, but she is a bestselling author 20 books in English 36 foreign editions what are 42 prestige his book awards for most spiritual expert and highly acclaimed, greatly respected professional speaker has decades of experience as an educator in the consciousness field. Her books include divine revelation, which was the 1996 Miracle prayer Random House, exploring meditation ascension, instant healing the power of auras, The Big Book of chakras, awaken your third eye Awaken Your Divine intuition. Color your chakras, Third Eye meditations, Earth energy meditations, prosperity measured meditations which is the one we're going to speak about today. For two decades, she studied in the Swiss Alps in the Himalayas, and around the world and under the guidance of Maha Rashi Yogi guru, The Beatles guru to Deepak Chopra. She served on maharishi's personal staff for six years. She is a Doctor of Divinity has taught meditation, intuition, yoga and spiritual enlightenment. As a true New Thought pioneer, she's done over 700 speaking engagements and over 1300 media appearances since her first book was published, and cool, including Alan combs on Fox News, Coast to Coast AM and George Nori, while you've been around, Susan, you have a just a plethora of background, if my people want to actually learn more, you're gonna see several videos that she's posted as well at the website, which are very important of some of the interviews. But it's a website that literally just gives you more information about her books, her lectures, what she's doing, where she's at. The book that's at the top right now is obviously prosperity meditations, but also earth energy meditations. So, Susan, you know, tell us why you wrote prosperity meditations? And how do you hope the readers of this book will benefit with relation to the beliefs about abundance and money because it's, it's all around our beliefs, it's what we, you know, whether we picked it up from childhood from our parents, and we drag it forward. But we have these beliefs around abundance and, and money. And in as you said, in your book, some people believe money is evil. Probably not the best thing to be running around with. So tell us what you'd like to help people today achieve was a result of doing the meditations.

Susan Shumsky
Right? So abundance, abundance in life. That's what we all need. And the fact is that many people have been brainwashed to believe that money is bad money is evil. So I wrote the book to help those of us who are spiritual people, spiritual seekers, because many people who are spiritual, have this belief that if they are poor, that makes them better, makes them more spiritual. And they have the belief that the old believes that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to attain the kingdom of heaven. And that money is not something that they want to have in their life that it just causes problems. But the reality is that those of us who are spiritual, who have the thoughts of humanity in mind? who wish to create a better world? Wouldn't we be more effective in the world creating a better world if we had more resources at our command? So that's the reason why I wrote this book to help those of us who really have the interests of humanity at heart, who really want this world to be a world of peace, a world of prosperity for all, a world of abundance. And, you know, we can do it, we are creating our reality ourselves.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. And somebody like yourself, who spent so much time with Maharishi in ashrams, and living a really, really deep spiritual life. You know, your, your kind of, of the world, not in the world. And, you know, when you are more that way, the focus isn't on monetary, riches. Right? It's more on how do I deepen my, my connection with a higher source? Right? And so speak with us a little bit about that, because I see the book behind you Maharishi, and me. The reality is, those experiences are just phenomenal experiences for most people. And you come with a Doctor of Divinity. And so how is that set your own tone with relation to money, wealth, abundance?

Susan Shumsky
Yes, well, I've never really been interested in money as being the source of happiness. Because true happiness comes from within. So all I ever saw throughout my life, was to achieve inner peace, to achieve inner happiness. And I did that through many years of meditation, through spiritual study, and so on. So really, money was never a huge issue in my life wasn't really that important to me. The reality is that this book, prosperity, meditations and that's just to create money, it says everyday practices to create an abundant life. That means abundance on all levels, physical, mental, spiritual, emotional, and in all areas of life. Not only finance, but also career also relationships, love happiness, home, in all different areas to create an abundant life to have an unlimited life.

Greg Voisen
Right. And, you know, if you look at the Eastern philosophies, the ashram as you were in my Rishi, Buddhism speaks about the Four Noble Truths. And one of those truths is the attachment. Right, our attachment to things? How would you address because I just interviewed Dr. Roger Walsh, who wrote a book on the spiritual principles, and he's a teacher like you are as well. And we had this discussion. And it's really interesting, because if you take that kind of vow of non-attachment, no matter what you're accumulating, all these things you accumulate around you, and we talk about material things. We'll speak about the spiritual side in a minute. It's a challenge, right? But you've mentioned in the book that we have been brainwashed to believe that money is evil, there is nothing inherently evil about money, you say that the truth is, money is power, the power to be effective in the world and fulfill our highest aspirations. So, you know, using some of your ageless methods, can you help people shift this belief about all this abundance in their life, whether it's money, whether it's love, whether it's physical health, whether it's whatever it is, what I mean, the book is got all these various segments in it, which I love about meditations in each of those areas, right. And then affirmations in each of those areas. Right? There were there's great affirmations in the book, there's great meditations in the book, there's, it's an awesome place for people to I'd call priming the fire, you know, start you know, it's kindling for the fire, right? So let's suppose speak with us with about dress this, how do I stay nonattached but at the same time, have abundance and an abundance, you know, in a whole person element?

Susan Shumsky
Right? Well, fullness comes from within. So, whatever is around us whether we have a lot of things whether we have few things, no matter what situation we are in, the real happiness, the real fullness is our own state of being It's our own consciousness. I call it prosperity, consciousness. Prosperity. consciousness means having infinite awareness being having unbounded awareness. And if you are centered within yourself, if you're feeling settled, if you're feeling whole, if you're feeling a sense of well-being a sense of peace, then you are infinitely abundant. That's really is the truth, no matter where you are, or what your circumstances are. So attachment comes from seeking in the external world, for your happiness, looking outwards for trying to get happiness from out outside of yourself. And that will never work.

Greg Voisen
Well, I think in a lot of the practices, they talk about cravings, getting rid of these cravings that you have, you know, and you just said, infinity and your said, embrace this, how can you help the listeners create this heightened state of consciousness? And what are some of the practices that they could use? Because this is all about, we always speak about elevation of consciousness. And for a lot of people, I kind of look at it, and maybe you do. This is a blending of being able to live with the ego, but at the same time, I have the subconscious mind working in conjunction with that, because I'm talking now on more of a the way our mind works, then there's the whole other round the astral realms, which we could speak about. But most people are dealing with just the hard facts of how do I work with my subconscious? How do I work with my conscious? How do I elevate it? How do I make myself better? What are some of the practices because you have lots of in the book,

Susan Shumsky
right? In the book prosperity meditations, there is, first and foremost, guided meditation. Guided Meditation is the easiest way for people to meditate, especially people who think that they, quote, unquote, can't meditate. Reality is that anyone can meditate. If they practice guided meditations, what I suggest is that what readers do, is just open to a meditation that you want to practice in the book, and then record it onto a device, such as your computer, and then sit comfortably and get into a really comfortable position, a quiet place where you won't be disturbed. And comfort is the most important thing about meditation. And then just start the playback and close your eyes and allow your own voice to guide you into meditation. So guided meditation is first and foremost, the best way for people to experience this unbounded awareness, this inner peace and so on. Then, also in the book, there are affirmations and affirmations, what they do is really create things effectively in the world. And whenever you do an affirmation, I suggest that you speak audibly, not just read it, but speak it audibly, and speak it in a powerful voice with conviction, and speak as though your Higher Self just pretend as though your higher self is speaking through you, not your ego, self, but the big self, the biggest self is speaking through you. Then also in the book, there are mantras and mantras are really they're just affirmations, but in Sanskrit, so there's all some mantras in the book. And there's also visualizations visualizations mean that once again, this type of guided meditation, where you are visualizing the goals that you wish to attain. And in the book, there are certain exercises, certain things that you can do little things like creating a vision scrapbook, for example. This is a way that you can manifest your dreams and desires. So there's so many different ways for you to manifest abundance in your life through using the book prosperity meditations,

Greg Voisen
well on page 103. You call it prosperous bank account. One. You've got lots of these. But you know, it starts out I am blessed of the Lord which had which had made heaven and earth. I delight and Lord who gives me the desires of my heart. I remember the Lord my God who gives me power to get well and it goes on. And for my listeners. As she's saying, take these and read them audibly read them into like, you know, we're creating a podcast here. It's so easy anymore to record anything and then play those back on your phone. play them back on whatever device you want to play them on. But the point is, recording them is easy, and that's a great thing. Also, writing, journaling is an excellent way to do it because handwritten, whether it's handwritten or its type, and then you read it after you type it, I think it's fine. Do you agree with that? Either way,

Susan Shumsky
you know, it really depends on the individual, some people find it's more effective for them to speak audibly. Other people find this really effective to write. And I recommend writing actually, with a pen, or pencil or whatever an actual writing tool rather than typing. It just gives you your body gets more involved in it. And so there's many ways whatever works for you, you know, really

Greg Voisen
well, I think, you know, just for the listeners who are digitally inclined, you know, there's so many writing applications, like on your iPad, or on your Samsung tablet, or whatever. And what's cool about it, and it just this is from a process standpoint, you can hand write it, you can turn it into a PDF, and then you literally can have the handwritten note, you can print it out. So it's pretty cool. There's a lot of ways you can do it; you say that I'm certain that all the listeners or I did that the listeners would love to find more happiness in their lives. We live in a world of uncertainty, which we just talked about, and it influences our psyche and our attitude. Obviously, it's very easy these days to get down and depressed unless you've just turned the news off completely, or you don't read a feed across your phone. But you're finding something new every day happening. What are some of the meditations and affirmations that can be used to sustain this attitude of gratitude, happiness, love and joy?

Susan Shumsky
Okay, well, let's read one, how about happiness, okay, happiness affirmation, it goes like this. I now choose to be happy. Even in the midst of challenges, I rise to the occasion, and I'm happy. Even when blocked by obstacles, I find a way around them, and I am happy. Even when beset with problems, I find solutions to everyone, and I am happy. Even when everyone seems against me, I stand strong and myself, and I am happy. Even when I feel weak, my higher self is invincible, and I am happy. Even when my life seems in shambles, I affirm divine order, and I am happy. Even when I feel unhappy. I know, outer circumstances do not determined inner happiness, and I am happy. Even when I experience a devastating loss, I find a way to reverse it. And I am happy. Even when I feel betrayed and stabbed in the back. I am forgiving, and I am happy. Even when I feel impoverished, I have the power to change my circumstances. And I am happy. Even when I bump my head against a wall without success. I can fulfill my desires with relentless determination. And I am happy. Even when it seems no one loves me. I know God loves me, and I am happy. Even when I feel alone. I know God is with me always. And I am happy. Even when there seems no reason to be happy. I find something to be grateful for and I am happy. I do not wait until my life is easy before I decide to be happy. I love everyone and everything in my life. And I am happy.

Greg Voisen
Hey, let's do that with a smile. Well, you know, I don't know how many times you said I am happy with the accent on I am happy. But just the pure fact that you're repeating to your subconscious and your conscious mind that you are happy. You must have said it 20 times during that. But the point is, is that that emphasis on I am happy and repeating that actually is like a mantra. You know we've talked about we've talked about, you know, affirmations, but mantras would be repeating something like that, like you just did, I'd actually look at that as a little bit of a mantra.

Susan Shumsky
Suzanne's mantra and the important thing for us to understand is that Buddha said one time, in fact, it's very first verses first chapter of the Dhammapada, which is arguably the most important scripture in Buddhism. He says all that we are is the result of what we have thought. And I'm gonna say that again. All that we are is the result of what we have thought. And then he goes on to say if a person speaks or acts with a pure thought, then happiness follows him or her. It's a person and speaks or acts with an impure thought and unhappiness follows him or her. So what he's telling us is that we create our own destiny, our own reality, day by day, moment by moment, through every thought, every word, and every deed. So we are creating our destiny ourselves. We are not victims. We are volunteers. We've created it, we've created our situations that we're in. And we didn't create it consciously. As you point out, Greg, it is our unconscious mind that is determining our destiny. So that's why the repetition of mantras, the repetition of affirmations can help us because it really works on changing the subconscious mind. And so it is meditation as well. And Jesus once said, we are not defiled by what we put into our mouth, we are defiled by what comes out of our mouth. So he's telling us the same thing, that our words have tremendous power. And whenever we use the words I am, it's very important that what we say after we say those words is something that we want to own something we want to draw into our life. Because we are manifesting every time that I am phrase has the power of manifestation, and we are manifesting do we want to manifest? I'm so unhappy? I'm so sad. I'm so poor, I'm so overweight. Do we want to manifest that? Or do we want to manifest I am filled with light, I am joyous, I am happy, I am wealthy, I am healthy. The vibration is no different. When you say positive statements,

Greg Voisen
I remember going to a conference in Palm Springs, and it was the guy it wasn't Ken Wilber because kinsmen on the show, lines, levels, consciousness levels where people vibrate at it was another one. Is it Hawkins? Yes, it was Hawkins. You know, he's, he mentioned that as the that so few people vibrate at the level of the Dalai Lama or Jesus Christ or whatever. And that the majority of the population is vibrating at levels which are just extremely low. And you have to think to yourself during these times, and I know we're off topic a little bit here, but we're really not somebody like Putin throughout the course of his life, how he spoke, how he did what he did. My question for you would be, what do you think somebody's like that in many of these world leaders who rise to power, had the ability to rise the power and convince enough people or demand whatever they demanded, and then be such low vibrating law levels of people, and evil.

Susan Shumsky
Whatever we place our attention on grows stronger in our life. Yeah, that's one of the major laws of the universe is the law of increase. So whatever it is that we focus on, whatever it is that we desire, that's exactly what happens to us. So if a person desires and only thinks about world domination, and only thinks about their ego, megalomania sort of thing. That's exactly what they're going to create in their life. We have free we have free choice, we have free will, we are creating our own destiny.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, you tell a great story about a wise advice you received from a Vedic Astrologer about how to increase your fortune. I remember that story. Can you tell the story and give my listeners some advice on how to increase their fortunes, no matter what kind of fortunate is, but the data kept some great advice for you.

Susan Shumsky
Yeah, I mean, he actually advised me to take a look at my life to reflect and he said, what have you done in your life that has created the greatest money? What have you ever done something where you had like a windfall where you made a lot of money, you had a huge so I thought I thought about it. And I realized that there was one time when there was a big conference that was being scheduled for a place that only held a small number of people to stay overnight. It had enough space for the actual conference to go on for the people to sit in a room and, and enjoy the conference, but there wasn't enough sleep and accommodations. So I thought, Well, why don't I just call up some hotels and reserve some hotel rooms, and then sell those hotel rooms to these people? So that's exactly what I did. And I was fairly young at the time. So. So it was the first time I ever really made a lot of money all at once. And it was more money than I had ever made in my life. By doing something very simple, it didn't really take all that much time. So as a result of that, that was how I came to the idea through talking to this Vedic Astrologer. That's how I came to the idea of starting divine travels, where I would take people to sacred destinations and tours. And that evolved into taking people on cruise ships of conferences at sea. So that is how my company divine travels began. And

Greg Voisen
Yeah, not ablate on cruise ships as much right not have like, you're probably okay not being on the cruise ship as of late. Well, look, we've talked about affirmations, we've talked about mantras, we've talked about meditation. And you know, a lot of people have boards they visualize on and let's talk about visualization now. And you speak that the power of visualizations and using what you call miracle making visualizations. A lot of people you know, cut out magazines and pictures and paste them together and create a board. How do you recommend using visualization to manifest abundance in all areas of your life, let's not just talk about abundance, money, but just abundance in all areas,

Susan Shumsky
Right. So some people are really good at visualizing, and sitting down closing their eyes, and imagining in their mind's eye, the thing that they want to create, actually, strangely, I'm really not very good at that. Or I haven't been up until now, I don't want to make the affirmation I am. Right. So I have not been in the past. Very good at that. Even though I'm an artist. And even though I have incredible spiritual experiences, whenever I meditate, I get visions all the time, visions of divine beings, visions of celestial realms, visions of life, all kinds of visions, but actually sitting down and imagining a screen in my inner eye, and then putting a picture on that screen or a movie on that screen and manifesting things that way. I have not had really great success at that

Greg Voisen
I found I have

Susan Shumsky
interesting, what I found is that creating a vision board or a vision scrapbook that really works, because what you're doing is you're cutting out pictures from magazines or downloading pictures from the internet. And then you're placing them onto a board or I like the scrapbook idea because each page of your scrapbook could be a different subject. So you have on one-page home another page, you have money and other page you have career and other page, you have relationships and other page, you have healthy children, you have health different things in your scrapbook. So I recommend creating a vision scrapbook and writing some affirmations on the pages. And also, I suggest maybe having a picture of your higher power on the top of each page and maybe making rays going down from your higher power on to the pictures that are in your vision scrapbook. And then every night, just before you go to bed, just look through just thumb through your vision scrapbook and look at the pictures and say the affirmations audibly, with a confident and strong voice. And I think you'll find that this is a miracle making method.

Greg Voisen
Well, it sounds really interesting, this scrapbook idea. And, you know, I've seen the vision boards, and I've seen things people have done and I think segmenting it out like that into categories is a good idea. And you stay you state, there's no limit to our good and that we deserve all the luxuries that we desire, and what we have and that we have the power to make our dreams come true. How do we reprogram our beliefs about again, abundance, whether it's wealth, money, love, you know, whatever it is we want health in our life to have a more plentiful life overall, because now we're talking about beliefs. Beliefs frequently are pretty strong. Meaning people's beliefs turn into truths, but they're not always. They're not always the highest spiritual truths. They're their truths. Okay. So how would you address that?

Susan Shumsky
Well, I have many techniques to address that. But let's start with this one, this particular affirmation that I recommend, I am in control. I am one with God, I am the only authority in my life. I am divinely protected by the light of my being, I close off my aura and body of light to the lower astral levels of mind. And I open to the spiritual world. Thank you God. And so it is. So what that affirmation does immediately shifts your entire consciousness, it takes you to a higher vibration. It, I could just feel the love and light just pouring into me as I was saying those words. And I think that you'll find that this affirmation can change your life very, very quickly. And I suggest that you do it every day.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, I know a lot of people out there have an app on their phone. And it has meditations and affirmations from Deepak, right. And when you do these in your voice, not Susan's voice, you just heard Susan voice. I think it's important what she said right off the bat, that you record these yourself. There's nothing like listening to your own voice. I know, I've done 900 And something podcasts. And when I play back the podcasts, it's really interesting for me to listen to my own voice. You know, it really is. And then I have people that like today I had a phone call. And this happens frequently. They think that I'm a woman, because my voice is high. I know. They do. They do. And they got that? Well, it happens on the phone a lot, believe me a lot. But you know, I always tell people, you know that I have this ability and have almost all my life. I'm pretty balanced between the feminine and masculine. So if they say that to me, I say, Well, I'm just balanced between my feminine and my masculine. Exactly. So could you speak with our listeners about the law of compensation, the law of increase in the law of circulation, and how these laws really work? Because you mentioned them in the book. And I'd love for you to address these for the listeners.

Susan Shumsky
Okay, so the law of compensation says states that you'll always be compensated for your efforts, and the contributions that you make. In other words, it's really the law of karma. As you sow, so shall you reap, right? Whether it you notice a result immediately, maybe immediate, but more often, it's much later, that that comes back. So whatever you're putting out into the universe is exactly what comes back to. So for example, if you throw a stone into the center of a pond, the ripples go out from that stone, and to the edge of the pond, and then they come back to the center. So it is it is done unto you as you believe. That's what Jesus said. And so what we are creating what we are manifesting through every thought every word in every deed comes back. And so if you're creating good if you're creating a good vibration, if you're vibrating love and light and happiness into the universe, that's exactly it will come back to you.

Greg Voisen
So now, how about the law of increase isn't? What is that all about? Yeah, the..

Susan Shumsky
law of increase states, whatever you put your attention and intention on grows stronger in your life. I did mention that before, when we were talking about Putin. The reality is that whatever we focus on in life, that's what manifests. I've always throughout my life, my technique for manifestation is to decide on something to make a final and firm decision on whatever it is that I want to manifest, and to persevere doggedly with determination with persistence with resolve. Not ever imagining for one moment that I won't create it. So that's the way I've created so many things in my life is simply through making a final decision, and placing attention and intention on that. And that's really a very powerful technique for manifestation. I

Greg Voisen
think it's important though, to note, and I will note this, and you can either agree or disagree with me. But you know, we, we put these things out, and we want to manifest them. They don't always manifest exactly like we expect them to. But they do manifest and you need to look for that, right? Because you don't always happen the way you think it's gonna happen.

Susan Shumsky
Right? I'm really glad you brought that up. Because it also brings up another issue. And that is that many people because they read the secret, and they learned about the law of attraction, what they do is they make a laundry list, okay, I'm gonna manifest this and this, and this, and this, and this. And then they go out and with determination, and they manifest all these things. And then when they're done, they look at it, and they say, well, but I didn't really want that. And I didn't want all the troubles that came with that. Why did I try to get that in the first place? So that's why it's really important. I think that the first step in any type of goal setting or manifestation, the first step, in my opinion should be that you meditate and ask spirit, and find out what your mission is, what your purpose is, why you're here, what you're supposed to be doing, and then make your laundry list. These are the things that I need to do in order to fulfill my destiny in order to fulfill my true mission and my true purpose in life.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I would agree with you and then the law of circulation. You want to end with the

Susan Shumsky
law of circulation states when you circulate substance, you keep the river of prosperity flowing. When you circulate money freely, more money flows into your life. So it's a law of circulation of wealth. In other words, not to hold on tightly and be miserly, but to allow was the money to flow, and then money will flow back.

Greg Voisen
That's why it's called currency. Currency. You know, because it's supposed to flow that is current. That's the idea. That's what we call it current like that. Yeah. You know, it's interesting it has on it in God We Trust So, but really, it should say, the God within we trust. Because the reality is you were the one that manifested it, and you are the one that will put it back into circulation. So that is, I love what Susan is saying here. Now, Susan, in wrapping up this interview about your book, prosperity, measured meditations, and I'm gonna hold this up for my listeners, again, we'll put a link to Amazon for you to go get the book, we'll put a link to Susan's website as well. Because as you can see behind her head, there's lots of other books you might be interested in as well. I would love personally to read the Maharishi and me, because I think that would be fascinating. Susan, your books filled with great advice, tools and food for thought. What are the three takeaways that my listeners can apply to their lives today? To transform their beliefs, their actions, whatever to put more plentifulness and abundance in their life? In every area of their life? What three things? Would you tell them?

Susan Shumsky
Yeah, well, first of all, I would tell them that, to use the book prosperity meditations to actually use it, and to do the methods in the book because it will transform your life very quickly. But here are the takeaways. The bad news is that you created your situation through your search, you have created your own situation and circumstances through your own thoughts, primarily, your words, and your deeds, those three things have created your reality. That's the bad news. The good news is that you created this yourself. The good news is same as the bad news, because of the fact that you created it yourself. That means you can change it yourself. Right? You have the power to change it yourself through changing your thoughts, your words, and your deeds.

Greg Voisen
Were honors, were 100% responsible for our thoughts and our own actions.

Susan Shumsky
Exactly. To our 100%. Responsible. Yeah.

Greg Voisen
So anything else you want to say?

Susan Shumsky
Yeah, that was number one. Number two, is that money goes where it's welcomed, and it stays where it's well treated. So if you push money away, which a lot of people do, especially subconsciously, because we have these, we've been brainwashed with these beliefs, that money is evil. If we push it away, subconsciously, it won't feel welcomed, it won't come to us. So money goes where it's welcomed. That's to number three. This book provides practices to create an abundant life on all levels, not just money. So health, happiness, relationship, relationships, love, every area of life should be unlimited, not limited to our own negative beliefs, habits and conditioning, unlimited life.

Greg Voisen
Well, those are great pieces of advice, the first one you said, which is pick up the book, but more than just picking it up, read the meditations and record the meditations, and then play the meditations back for yourself. Because those are what are going to make a significant difference. I would also add to it you know, the mantra thing that you were saying, you know, I am happiness. It's just whatever that mantra is to change your vibratory level is so important. And those things do help you and shifting your vibratory level. And the other thing I would say is, you know, your gratitude journal or any journaling you're doing. And the other thing she said was this scrapbook with the different segments in it. All of those were wonderful takeaways that I took away from this interview. And I want to thank you for spending time with our listeners, and sharing some of yourself and some of your thoughts and your ideas and your wisdom and knowledge about how to transform our lives to have a more plentiful life, in every area of our life, whatever it might be. Namaste to you, Susan.

Susan Shumsky
Thanks for Namaste.

Greg Voisen
Thank you for being on the show. And thanks for spending a few minutes with the listeners at inside personal growth.

Susan Shumsky
Thank you.

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My guest for today’s podcast is the founder and CEO at Inner Matrix Systems and the author of The Inner Matrix: Leveraging the Art & Science of Personal Mastery to Create Real Life Results – Joey Klein. Joey is also an international keynote speaker and a corporate trainer who talks about leadership, personal development, emotional intelligence, among others.

Meanwhile, as for Inner Matrix Systems, they have worked with more than 80,000 individuals from around the world through both live and online training programs, as well as one-on-one coaching. Clients have included: Boeing, IBM, Dell, Google, Panda Express, Coca Cola and The World Health Organization.

Moreover, as a result of his research, training, and experience, Joey has long been considered an expert on the inner game of performance and even came up with his own book The Inner Matrix: Leveraging the Art & Science of Personal Mastery to Create Real Life Results. It’s basically a comprehensive program to realign your emotional, mental, and physical states to support the achievement of down-to-earth objectives.

If you’re interested and want to know more about Joey and his works, you may click here to access his website. You may also click here to access Inner Matrix Systems’ site.

I hope you enjoy this engaging interview with Joey Klein.

THE BOOK

In The Inner Matrix, you’ll discover a simple, practical approach to managing your emotions, thought strategies, and nervous system to channel success; ways to develop fulfillment, peace, and inspiration; how to create the neurological alignment needed to achieve any outcome you desire; methods for training yourself to design a rich and meaningful life; and case studies, scientific references, expert insights, and much, much more!

THE AUTHOR

Joey trains individuals and teams in his proprietary personal mastery training system that rewires, trains, and aligns your emotions, thought strategies and nervous system to achieve strategic outcomes. He develops leaders, dynamic opportunities and endless possibilities. With his high-energy style, Joey blends East and West wisdom traditions with the latest in neuroscience and psychology, to help people, teams and businesses thrive in a complicated world.

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from just a little bit outside of dinner in Denver, he said, is Joey Klein, and Joey has a book out, called the Inner Matrix. And the subtitle is leveraging the art and science of personal mastery to create real life results. Joy, good day, dia, how you doing?

Joey Klein
Hey, I'm doing awesome, man, thank you so much for having me.

Greg Voisen
Well, we appreciate you having you. We, you know, this shows been on the air 15 years and personal growth is our I want to call her lane, but there's like four lanes. And there's some in spirituality, personal growth, wellness, and personal mastery. And I think you cover all of those. And on the mastery side, I think you said in here, it takes longer. And I remember doing an interview with George Leonard, he was one of the first people that wrote a book on mastery. And he's also the same guy that started s lawn with Michael Murphy. And I learned so much from George about mastery in his little book that is still a huge seller. But we're going to be talking to Joey, the inner matrix. And I'm going to let my listeners Joey know a little bit about you. He's the founder of inner matrix systems. It's a personal mastery training system for high achievers. Actually, it's for any achiever. For more than 20 years, IMS has delivered a proprietary methodology that rewires trains, and aligns the nervous system emotions and thought strategies to create real life results. And I think that's the secret formula here is you know, how to rewire and retrain. For most of my listeners, they know, I know, we've had Steven Kotler on here many, many times talking about how do you rewire this brain? How do you change the circumstances? And how do you get out of that, and Joy's a master at that. So he's been doing this, and he's had over 80,000 people through his course. I think you're all are going to really enjoy this interview, you can learn more about joey and his book in two places. The first place I'm going to direct you is there's a 60% off, actually, believe it or not, of the book right now. And I want to direct you to the inner matrix.com to go there. And you'll be able to get this book for 995. This is that's quite a bargain. I didn't count the pages. But you can say it's pretty thick. But it's had its big type. So it's an easy read. I love how you did that. There, you can learn more about the work of the art and science of personal mastery. You can learn more about Joey, but do go to there and then click that reserve your copy off and get 60% off. The other place that you can learn more about joey and the inner matrix is really at the inner matrix systems plural.com. And we'll put a link to that. That's where you can learn more about his courses and what he's doing and everything else. So Joey, let's start this off. You know, many people who write books like this. Life wasn't simple. They didn't have the most perfect family. They things were tough. And you state in the introduction that the family life was less than perfect. You saw pain and suffering. I was just reading a part in your book again about your dad, you always got stuck. And he said, finally your dad answered you, you asked him how many how much did he make running these businesses out of the basement. And he finally said between 60 and $70,000. And you realize that you've programmed your brain and your system, that that's all you were gonna make for a long time. And you saw this pain and suffering you said, and there was very little happiness, love and joy. If you tell us a little about yourself and your quest to find meaning and purpose and joy in your life. And really, the big thing here is the influence of Dr. Lu. I, this mentor had so much influence on you that really they changed your life. So go ahead and let our listeners know a little about you and Dr. Liu because that's where a lot you learned a lot of this. Sure, sure

Joey Klein
thing. Absolutely. So I mean, you're right on track there in terms of how my life got started out. Like I remember I was probably my second year of college or so where it really all came to a head and hit me pretty hard. And I fell into just this Oh A lot of partying and a lot of drugs on alcohol. You know, back then if you'd have met me, you probably, you know, would not have met me met me sober run ins with the police just really unhinged and you know, trying to cope with, you know, the different struggles that was my life etc. And really my whole journey started because one night, you know, after going a little bit too far, I really feel like I was probably close to dying. And I remember I had this awareness, that simple awareness, which was simply like, I think I'm here for something more. And if I keep living the way I'm living, I don't think I'll be alive in a year. And so, you know, I was really young, I was 19 years old, I moved out of my house when I was 17. It was on my own, and about 18 or so 19 years old. You know, I really said, you know, I just want to know happiness, you know, peace and fulfillment like what do I need to do to find that? How do I do what I wanted to do didn't have really good direction in my life. And I ended up meeting a mentor who is a bit of a spiritual mentor in the beginning. And that's really where, where my path got started. He actually was a guy in Boulder, Colorado, so I moved to Boulder was a living student for a year. And then it was a year after that, that I met Lou, among a couple other like key people who directed me and I found my answers like I really did find a sense of, of a bit of peace and fulfillment and happiness in my life. And, you know, it was totally done with all the partying and the crazy behaviors that I was up to. And I remember when I when I kind of got myself dialed in, people just started asking what I was doing organically, and asking for advice. And my teachers, Lou was one of those main mentors that said, you know, you really should, all these people are just asking you what you've done, and they're asking you for your advice, and you're sharing the information that we're giving you, like, you really need a career, you need to be able to take care of yourself. Because I was kind of couchsurfing, I was real happy. But I was couchsurfing, right? I was like a 20-year-old, you know, you know, bomb, I was like, like hanging out wherever I could. And I remember they just told me to start charging for kind of the advice that I was sharing and giving. And I remember I named a price, I just started coaching people. And they really told me like Lou was one of them that said, Hey, if you don't share the information I'm giving you I'm gonna stop mentoring you. And so it was kind of at their, their, you know, it wasn't even really a request, it was a demand, where they said, if you don't share this stuff, and you know, start, you know, kind of giving back, if you will, or pay it forward. We're not going to mentor you anymore. So I started sharing with people, what I was up to what I was doing, and you know, that led to today. And Lou was a prominent psychologist in LA that's really where I got my start, she convinced me to move out to LA ultimately. And the reason she did that was because I helped out her daughter. Her name is Kelly. And she had a brain injury and, you know, was a bit unstable and wasn't kind of able to do the things she wanted to do in life after a severe car accident. And she asked me like, Hey, do you think this like internal training stuff you do can help me? And I said, you know, I don't know. But I've seen it do some pretty cool stuff for people. So why don't we give it six months a year and see what happens. And then a year she was off all her medication, she was normal. She was you know, maintaining a job and all the things. And her mom took notice of that her mom was Lou, Dr. Liu, who became my mentor. And she started to send me some of her high profile clients. And now I was able to really make some differences there with the things that I had learned and was learning. And so she moved me out to LA and she said, Listen, I'll teach you kind of the artist psychology. If you teach me this inner training stuff you're doing and we'll make a trade. And she kind of took me under her wing. And she's really where I got my start because she started sending me all of her clients, I did a great job with them. And then it kind of took on a life of its own from there.

Greg Voisen
Well, you are martial arts champion as well. And you had mentioned something about trading the martial arts is that correct? Is that was what you were doing?

Joey Klein
Yeah, I had a I had a traditional, you know, to focus on traditional martial arts, and La again, like all these mentors kind of showed I had these primary mentors showed up in LA and, and one of my mentors said, you know, you really should get strong and you take better care of your body and, and I thought to myself, well, when was I you know, the most strong in my life and I remember back to my early teens, back then I did a style called Okinawan Kempo. And I remember I was really fit I was really strong and fairly athletic. And I kind of fell away from that. So I said, you know, I'm gonna get back to that. And I found a very traditional martial arts master Grandmaster Lee was his name. And he was in LA. And so I started studying with him privately, world renowned martial artist. And so that's where, you know, I kind of kind of kind of led that that's kind of what led my path into the martial arts there. And when I started studying with him and training with him privately, he said one day, you know, if I'm going to train you privately, I don't train very many people privately. You have to compete in the in these tournaments, you have to win. And I was like, all right, I just wanted to learn martial arts. I actually didn't like competing. I don't like competition. I didn't want to, you know, compete. I just loved the artist studying. And so it was like a tradeoff. I was like, well, I'll compete, as long as I get to train with this guy. And I was like, Well, if he thinks I'm good enough to do okay, I guess I guess I'll believe in that. And so really the World Championships and kind of my leaning into martial arts was, again, one of my mentors, saying, like, hey, I'll train you. But then you've got to, you know, you got to go out there and show that I trained you and do pretty good. So, you know, ultimately, it worked out and I won three consecutive, you know, world championships in a row. And then after that, I got clear, like, if I continue this, it's not going to be great for my body and my 5060. So I could have kind of took a took a change there.

Greg Voisen
Well, there is a discipline, though, associated with any martial arts, when you're doing it, that's so important. And it follows suit in the work that you talk to people about here as well, this inner work, the discipline that needs to take place as part of this transformation process, and you stay that radical evolution can be instantaneous, but that mastery takes time. That's the discipline I'm talking about. Mastery takes time. Can you distinguish the difference between the two, for our audience and comment on the journey to mastery, versus just this instantaneous, radical evolution that you might have? Yeah, of course.

Joey Klein
So for me, like, I think of transformation. And when I see people's lives transform, and I get to kind of see this, you know, on a regular basis, I just got done teaching a program in Kansas City, and, you know, like, like, you know, we had 100 people there a little over 100 people, and there was a number of people who their life just simply won't be the chain be the same as a result of, of like, engaging there. And when I look at transformation, it really is a paradigm shift. And we've all experienced it, at some point in time in our life, most of us probably just didn't, didn't drive it, right, we didn't intend it, if you will, it just sort of occurred in one direction or another. And so a transformation happens when our perspective of ourselves and reality changes. And it really is an instantaneous event, you know, just like I was sharing with you, you know, when I kind of, you know, wait a little bit too far, when, when I kind of first began this journey, you know, 20 plus years ago, and I realized in that moment, like, hey, if I continue living the way I am, I'm not going to be around any longer. And I'm here for something more. And in that moment, I just saw my reality completely differently than I did moments before. One moment, it was, this is fun, and I'm living my best life. But the reality was, I was just hurting myself and other people in extraordinary ways, right? People that loved me, people that cared about me, and, and, and myself. And as soon as that that paradigm shift happens, where you realize, oh, I'm actually doing x naught, y, and x is possible. For me, as opposed to as to why it's like all of a sudden, that moment, I was no longer ever going to be the same. And yet, it took a little bit of time for that to unfold. You know, the second example that I can have of like, like instant transformation in my own life that wasn't directed, was when I moved when I was a child. I remember moving from, you know, grade school into middle school, we moved from Albuquerque, New Mexico, my dad got a new job, we moved to Wichita, Kansas. And I remember, you know, loving school and getting good grades. And, you know, all of those things. And I remember sitting in the counselor's office at the new school that I was going to go to in Wichita, actually Andover, Kansas, and I was sitting there in the counselor's office. And I remember, like, it was yesterday, the counselor talking to my parents and going well, this is a harder school than then, you know, Joe is coming from, and we don't want to set him up for failure. And although you know, it's recommended that all these advanced classes be taken, we really should put them in just the normal classes. And then if he excels, we'll go ahead and bump them up. Because we don't want to set them up for failure. We really, you know, it's a much more advanced curriculum here. And we're not sure that he's going to thrive in these other classes. And for whatever reason, I remember like, in that moment, thinking to myself, this is going to be hard. And I remember like taking on this idea that I was dumb that I was stupid. And sure enough, like going into school, new place new reality. I remember thinking this is going to be hard. And sure enough, I struggled in school from then on, you know, forward,

Greg Voisen
reprogram the subconscious. Yeah, exactly. Right.

Joey Klein
It just happens to us all the time. We don't realize it's going down.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, remember an interview with that guy is just was recent, actually. It's interesting visit doctor teaches in university, Joey. And he said, you know, he always thought he was bad at math. But the department he was in they moved into an apartment and said, You're gonna be the math instructor. And he was like, me, the math instructor. How can I do that? And I love this story, because he became really good at math, and he enjoyed it. And he had this student come in after hours and she said, Doctor, whatever his name is, at this point, I can't remember. I'm horrible at math. I am just horrible at math and He says, Well, why'd you say that? And she says, because I've never really done well at math. And you could see she already preprogrammed herself. So he, she, he does the first test. He hands it to her. And she says, it's an A. And she said, Oh, my God, Dr. Jones, you know, there's no way I got an A, he said, Yeah, you did get an A, you, you. You aced it, you really did. She goes, I don't know, I don't know how that happened. So second test, she got a D. Third test, she got a D. And what she realized that she could be an average student, which was C, she had two Ds and an A. So they average the grade together. And she ended up getting a C and the course. But he would say to her, just like you said, why do you believe you're a bad student? You're not, you're a good student. Yet, she'd already preprogrammed that she was going to be a C student. And she ended up being a C student. So there you go. There's another example of how powerful the mind is, you know, like you just said, that's, it's a great example. Yeah, we

Joey Klein
just take it on. I remember, you know, and I struggled through school all the way through my second year of college. And I remember my dad, like he, he took this Dale Carnegie course. And he, he somehow got me in there for free. So I was, you know, 15 years old or something. And I'm in there with the CEOs and business people and just terrified out of my mind. Because I'm the only kid in there everybody else is very successful running companies in this kind of thing. And I remember at the end of the course, you know, the facilitator who was running for mayor he was running to for the, you know, to be the mayor of Wichita comes up to me with his wife. And he says to me, you know, I don't know what you're going to do. But I know, it's gonna be amazing. Because you're extremely smart, and you're so capable. And you're, you're just obviously special. And so I don't know what you're going to do, but you're going to be an outstanding success. And I want you to call me, and let me know what amazing things you do. And I remember that moment, because all of a sudden, I like took that on. And I was like, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. But it's going to be great, it's going to be amazing. And all of a sudden, that was a paradigm shift for me again, and all of a sudden, I was like, I was clear, I was going to do something, but I had no idea what it was that I was going to do, you know, like, like how great it would be or anything like that, but I assumed it to be true. And so like, like, transformation happens in a moment. But then when I look at well, what did what did it create? What did it take to do something significant? Like what did it take to succeed? You know, I had to study business, I had to, you know, study personal development I had, I had to study the sciences, and like it was throwing myself into the right things, you know, for two decades, that that created a high proficiency. Or same thing with martial arts, like I might have a natural aptitude for that. But in terms of, of, of mastery, or creating excellence, you know, as for ours, and in the dojo, you know, doing hard training six hours a week, year after year after year after year, that developed a high capacity and a high skill. And so although transformation can happen in an instant, where life really is one way, and then it's just never the same for us. And then it unfolds over time. If we really want to master something and achieve and know what's possible for us and realize our potential. We've got to lean in and do the right things over time for sure.

Greg Voisen
It's so true. And you know, that experience you had at 15 and Dale Carnegie, it brings me back to the days where I was in Carnegie. And I actually became a trainer. And the man who put me into Carnegie was a gentleman. He was my manager. When I was doing insurance sales. His name was Grant Benning. His daughter is Annette Bening. And he introduced me to the grandson who would had the San Diego location for Dale Carnegie. And he's been on the show. And I ended up going to New York as a result of it. And flying to the headquarters of Dale Carnegie, which is in New York. And the interesting thing was, is that I, I always remember the Dale Carnegie sales training. For some reason, you talk about spaced repetition, learning, they were miraculous at it, whatever they did. attention, interest, conviction, desire clothes, right? That's called the sales Berger, you know, and to this day, after all these years, if you really look at the process, the process is still the same, and it's crazy. How to Win Friends and Influence People. Dale Carnegie, another great course. And you know, you mentioned that the research and this comes from the research and the scientific data on how to step into a powerful life. That only small pieces have been translated into accessible language and made readily available for mainstream audiences. When you state that you have merge the modern science and the ancient mystical practices and have developed this inter matrix system. Can you give the audience an overview of what the inner matrix is and how it helps people to transform their lives because you're taking the ancient wisdoms, and you're taking this other scientific data, and you're putting it together. And that, to me, means me shows that there's a spiritual side. And then there's this data side that the stuff that's going on in here, how are our neurons wired? How are they firing? How are we looking at? We'll get it to an in a minute. But you talk about this, these deep patterns that people set up, right. And those patterns then kind of lead normally to failure. But I want you to speak about the inner matrix and how it works and how people can benefit.

Joey Klein
Sure. So for me, I define the inner matrix as our, essentially our unique set of emotions and thoughts, strategies, that that ultimately drive and determined every choice decision and action that we take. And so another way to say that is if we, if we look at a choice that we make something simple as like, Hey, what are we gonna eat your breakfast this morning? Right? Are we going to have, you know, fruit or eggs or, you know, coffee and a bagel? Like, like, at the core of that decision, emotion really drives those basic, simple decisions. And then the decisions that are that are obviously more life determining in terms of how we think about it, you know, who are we going to marry? Right? Are we gonna say, Yes, we're gonna say, No, who do we date, etc. Like, they determine those decisions as well. And a lot of times I have, you know, like, like, especially my clients that I work with CEOs of like big companies, fortune 100, companies, things like this, they always tell me, Joey, I'm a very rational person, I'm an objective, individual, you know, I make objective decisions. And when we stop to consider the nervous system in the brain, and how it, how it, how it forms, you know, that's just simply not the case. Some of us are more connected to emotions and the feelings that we have than others, and we're more, you know, we're more aware of how that's driving in us. And then, you know, some are, are not as aware. But if we really look at it, you know, when we were when we were young, a year old, two years old, our entire communication system was emotional, we felt we felt sad, we felt happy. Without joy, we felt peace, you know, through the mirror neurons in the brain, which are responsible for empathy, but we had no idea to call them joy, or happy or sad, or anger was just imposed on us, right, we just kind of experienced that which was in our environment from those who are around us. And then, you know, around five or six, we started to formulate language, which gave us the ability to think and so from a nervous system perspective, emotions were a primary communication system, you know, for the first face, you know, 567 years of life. And then we started communicating in language. So, so thoughts are, like, superimposed on top of emotion. And so in terms of just how we're wired as human beings, emotion drives the thinking, and then those thoughts reinforce emotion. And so when we think about decision making an actions that we take, we might, we might be aware of rational thought, I like this, right like that. But what's underneath the surface, often in the unconscious self, is emotion driving the show, if you will, if we know how to manage that emotional leverage that emotion, you know, we can get ourselves to take just about any action that we want. If we don't know how to manage or leverage that emotion, we may want to take different action, but we just can't quite get ourselves to do so. Right, like working out every day or changing some dietary habits and things of that nature. And so when I worked with my spiritual mentors, you know, I worked with, I studied in India with gurus and I, you know, had a Dallas meditation master and, you know, study with a rabbi. And I noticed like, all these true ancient wisdom traditions had these like breathing practices and focus practices. internal training, is how I thought of it, because that's how I thought about it for martial arts, like, Oh, you do this technique, and you get a result. And, and I had these great results, but I didn't understand like, exactly why they were happening. And it was actually my mentors that told me to go seek out how to make this available in white, like, like, encourage me to take it more to a mainstream audience. And, you know, I met a Harvard trained neurologist that I was introduced to, and he would give me these papers with all these medical terms, and I'm like, Dude, I don't understand any of this. Can you put it in layman's terms for me? And so what I started doing was I was like, yeah, here's the technique I do. Why is it that when, you know, we breathe this way, we feel more calm? And then he talked about, you know, the different regions of the brain, it would stimulate the prefrontal cortex responsible for peace and, you know, creating a sense of sense of joy and like, that's the region of the brain that that creates these kinds of experiences. And when you breathe this way, or you focus in this way, you know, it trains that region of the brain. And I was like, oh, okay, so this technique creates that result he's like, exactly, I was like, good so be my interpreter, right like helped me I understand this stuff that I really can't even read because it was beyond me with all the medical terms and stuff like this. But he understood, you know, really clearly what was what was going on. And so he helped me break that down in layman's terms. And so that was really the process of like, like really understanding, hey, why is it that this makes me feel better? Why is it that this produces that result, and I kind of went on a search, because I'm a wide person, you know, for me, it's not enough to just do something and get the result, I really want to understand it. And it was through that understanding that I kind of understood, oh, this could be a system, this could be a training process, just like you train anything else. And so and if the, you know, not to say that there's not extraordinary value, in our wisdom, traditions, and in ritual and in, in those things, like, like, I appreciate them so very much. And obviously, they've been around such a long time, there's so much value in that. But I found a lot of people will do things, if it's not tied necessarily to, you know, religion, so to speak, but it's just techniques that get results and can be explained in better their lives.

Greg Voisen
Well, I think that some people, you know, look, I've done a lot of interviews with people in the Eastern philosophies, Western mystery schools, as well, and everybody, including Steven Kotler, it's always about how do you hack flow? How do you hack something, and I think the traditionalists are not as interested in having someone hack it? Because you can get there quicker, doesn't, you know, they'll say, it doesn't always mean that it's better. You know, I know that to get to a flow state, whether it's induced through meditation, or to induce through your practices, or you're micro dosing LSD, or you're doing all kinds of things, allows you to get to altered states of consciousness. Now, whether or not this improves, what it does is it opens up the part of the psyche of the mind, which you realize, and allows you to enter into areas that you maybe haven't been willing to go and it helps you clear, much of what is blocking you, right. And there'll be a lot of people that tell you, you know, I've gone to South or gone, I've gone south and done ayahuasca, right. And I and I know many people have lots of people. And I had rom das on the show before he passed away. I thought it was very interesting. You know, if there's one guy in this world who's spent most of his time in meditation, he always said, the Eastern practices of meditation were the ways that he found the ability even because, you know, at Harvard, they said, no more LSD, dude, you're, you're gonna have to find a different way. You state for the most of us, because of the lack of education and awareness, than instead of being able to purposely create our reality, a random set of experiences or conditions, or our inner matrix, and as a result, we react to the environment in a series of specific ways. I agree. I think that's all absolutely 100% correct about the matrix, however, you want to look at the matrix? How can you help the listeners that are listening right now become more aware and proactive in creating the realities in their lives? Other than to allow it to kind of go on automatic pilot?

Joey Klein
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, something that that I, that I started to notice, like, those events that I shared with you a little bit ago, when I, when I took on this new identity, if you will, one time, not for the better, right? I'm not, I'm stupid. And the other time, I'm going to do something great, right? When I took on these identities, like, well, what really drove that what happened there, and the combination, like the reality was, like, there was an intense emotion that I was experiencing at the time. And then I adopted an idea, right, an idea about myself and idea about the world, you know, a way of seeing reality that was different than what I had access to before. And, and then it lit up my nervous system, right, my body felt different, right? My, my action started to change as a result of that, which I took on. And so you know, what I've noticed and what I what I see is like, hey, if we can, you know, learn to notice when we're inside of intense emotion, and start to like, intentionally adopt the perception we want to take on or what different situations are going to mean to us, then we can essentially train ourselves we can wire ourselves inside of the experience we want to have and also direct the trajectory that that we want to go and the outcomes that we want to fulfill on and we can do that in two ways. Like number one, you know, life is going to happen and we're going to have an intensity of love and joy at times in our life. That happens upon us, and we fall in love or something like this. And then there's gonna be times when, you know, the unexpected happens, and it's painful. And if we can, you know, have a little bit of, of a formula for when those intensities of moments, you know, of life come, and instead of, you know, accidentally, I, you know, assume something as to what we're going to have it mean or what we decide, it's going to mean for our future, if we stop and ask the question, what do I want this to trend toward as my future? What do I want this to mean, for me, what's the experience I want to take forward, we can start to really make this an intentional process, if you will. On the other side, if we learn how to activate intense emotion, you know, for some of us, that's music that can do that. Some of us it's using the body, you know, some people, you know, breathe in a certain way, etc. But like if we understand how to activate intense emotion within ourselves, and then again, determine, you know, meaning tied to that emotion and the outcomes that we aspire to, or the aspects of life we want to change, we really can direct and drive our behavior in a very different way than people are accustomed to.

Greg Voisen
Well, look, we're living in a world right now, that is very uncertain. It's very volatile. There's a lot of things going on. And I have a feeling many people. around just a many people don't really know what they want. It's confusing, right? It's confusing, and it and let's face it, the times have never been as rapid as they are, and they're never going to get slower. Let's just face it, it is what it is. How would you help somebody who's stuck? And saying, Hey, Joey, I don't really even know what I want in life. Because you were there. At one point, you know, you were you were stuck. You were saying, hey, these things aren't good things aren't whatever, how did you get out of it? And start to actually make something positive happen in your life? Yeah.

Joey Klein
So I think, most important is, is that is that is that moment of decision, right? We've got to decide to make change a must for ourselves. Not a, it would be nice, or you know what, you know, it would it would be, you know, not necessarily just hopeful that things change, right? But get to a moment where we go, you know, regardless of where we are, right, we're in a lot of pain. And that pain goes, I have to make a change, right? Or are like, Hey, I'm just, I'm just tired of things just being okay. Right, we're just kind of going through the motions, I think step one is we have to get to a place where we're sincere with ourselves, and we go, you know, I have to make a change here. It's a must for me. And, and in my opinion, like, if we do nothing more than that, a series of opportunities that sort of follow that, that will almost guide us toward creating or making, you know, those changes happen. And I think the second piece to it is, number one is like determining we want to change is not necessarily, you know, wanting to make more money, or have a nicer house or move or, you know, meet another person, I think that's where we go to a lot of times, but I think a lot of people, you know, the reason they're looking for their path or their you know, seeking these things outside of themselves is really because they just want to feel better. At the end of the day, like the core reason we want change to occur is we're looking for first and foremost a new emotional experience. And I remember the first you know, sort of thing I drove to when I said, I have to change my life. I didn't drive I sort of instinctually didn't drive toward, I need to know what to do, I need to know who I'm going to be in terms of like a policeman or a fireman or a doctor something like this. I remember getting so clear. And I said, you know, I need to, I need to find happiness, I need to know how to create joy for myself, I need to understand what is fulfillment, before I can really name what it is that I want to do. And that's what's really important to me. And that's really what I went out seeking for right? Some people we go out, we look to make more money and all that's fine. But you know, I've trained so many people who are really wealthy. And you know, the reason they're calling me is because there's sadness, there's unworthiness there. And so I would start with what all human beings want, which is, hey, I must change. And what I'm going to do is I'm gonna look to create a sense of fulfillment or sense of happiness or sense of joy for myself. And I know it sounds funny to people when they first hear it. But the truth is, like once we have our basic needs met food, water and shelter, if we're not happy and we're not fulfilled, it's not because of our wealth. It's not because of the people in our life. It's not because of our job or because we don't have our purpose. It's because we're not managing our mental emotional self in a particular way. And that's what's keeping us from those fulfilled experiences. So the first step to transformation is how do I want to feel? And let's start asking ourselves what can I do to create that feeling? I think it was the Dalai Lama, I read a book that that he produced, he was talking about the studies that he, he funded I forget what college, a university that he worked with, or who was who was speaking to, but I remember the quote, and it was something to the effect of, you know, why is it that all these universities are studying depression? Right? Why don't you study happiness, and the art of happiness, essentially, and look at the formula that produces happiness, because what, and that's all from the depression anyway. And so let's do a study that really, you know, let's do a study, and let's really start to start looking at what is the brain doing? And what is it that people do to be happy? Like, let's do a happiness study as opposed to a depression study, right? And that made so much sense to me, like, let's focus on the experience you want to have and start paying attention to how do we create that?

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, it's interesting, because, as we've all know, homeostasis is a tough thing. And to kind of move beyond the body wants to just go to homeostasis, you know, it's like, okay, but to actually move beyond and achieve what you would like to achieve in your life, knowing what you want to achieve, you have to be willing to take some additional steps. And those steps sometimes are hard to initially determine what they are, you have four separate yet interrelated aspects that comprise what you call the inner matrix, the mental, emotional, physical, and the intuitive, or what you refer to as the higher self. I should know this one really well, I wrote a book on intuition called hacking and the gap, a journey from intuition to innovation and beyond, can you explain the elements of the higher self and the energy that you referred to as presence, and how this is responsible for our state of the deep sense of connection, because it's so true, that, you know, if you're, if you're going to reach this higher state of consciousness, and you calling this presence, that that is the state where I say, most creativity comes from most fulfillment comes from yet so many of us spend so little time there.

Joey Klein
So I think I think of the higher self in two ways, one, is a little bit more of a spiritual idea. When we think of, you know, when we hear like the word or idea of like Soul, or, you know, Atma, or, you know, there's these different terms for, you know, who we exist as, beyond the body, as pure consciousness or pure energy, you know, that which we existed, as before, maybe we're in a body, and perhaps that which we know ourselves as we were no longer in the body anymore, right? That that eternal self. So I think that's a component of higher self. And at that level, we're definitely connected to all things. The more practical idea of the higher self is, is Who am I, if I give myself permission to believe, in my fully realized potential, right? What's the emotion I'm capable of? What am I capable of achieving? What difference Am I able to make in the world? Likely, who could I evolve into from where I am now. And if I were to imagine, the best of myself fully realized, you know, I think of a person who's loving and kind and compassionate, and resilient and confident and, you know, unshakable in these qualities, and somebody who you know, is a, you know, caters to or supports the growth of humanity and sees you as making contribution and is capable of that at the highest levels. And if I think of the higher self, it's like, Hey, what is this image of ourselves? That, that if we imagined ourselves as realizing our full potential, if we kind of grew into that? Who would we be? And what are the types of things we might accomplish or do or serve, and then it gives us a mark, it gives me a focus, and I can go, oh, you know what, that's what I'm going to strive today to, to evolve into a little bit more. And then the next day a little bit more, and the next day a little bit more. And when I've done that, and I imagined what is the potential, like if we think of our higher self as what we could fulfill as our highest potential, and we start moving toward that and try to grow into that. It gives us a focus, it gives us a destination. And we're able to sort of move into that, that that reality of ourselves. And what's always fascinating to me is when I connect to that idea of myself, and I named what I want to do, it's usually centered around connecting with human beings serving people in the best way possible. How can I give back what difference can I make, you know, it's usually around some kind of contribution? And when I name it, I don't know how it's going to happen. But I commit to it and it always seems to bridge the gap. I always seem to go hey, you know I remember I said, Hey, I want to serve 1000 people, and I want to support them in bettering their life. And I had no idea how was that was going to occur. And I was kind of, you know, working with four people at the time. And next thing I knew there was 1000 people, right? And then I thought, well, if I could do 1000, can I do 10,000, and sure enough to bridge the gap from 1000, to 10,000. And I thought to myself, like, like, I had no idea how this is going to happen, I'm confident that will occur. And so that sense of connection or universal energy or, or source, if we want to call it that, that, you know, I have enough examples in my life where I go, you know, what, there's some intelligence that I can count on that if I can get out of my own way and believe in the in the reality of who I can become as being possible, what I can achieve as being possible. Somehow, it nudges me in that direction, and always puts the things together that are required to fulfill that outcome. And so for me, when I think of source or connection, or that Universal Consciousness driving us, you know, we can't necessarily, you know, taste it or touch it or see it. But if we look careful, there's a ton of evidence that it's there all the time. And we can align with it if we learn how

Greg Voisen
the most certainly we can align with it. And I think the key is to being in unconnected being connected to it all the time, I was trying to find a different word, but it's there all the time. And it's really realizing it is and calling upon the power that is within it, to guide us and direct us, you know, intuition. To me, it comes in many different ways. You know, you when you look at it from a standpoint, is it? Are you hearing a voice? Are you feeling something? Are you acting from a gut feeling? People say, Well, I have a gut feeling about intuition, because I did a lot of research on intuition. And it was really fascinating to me, the people that thought they were so linear. And in the end, when you interview them, you know, they're like, scientists or whatever. And you say, Well, you know, you're putting together software. And yeah, I follow this process. Well, in the end, how did you get to that? Well, you know, we came together as a team, but I believe there was a collective consciousness, oh, collective consciousness of people coming together to help solve a problem. Where did that come from? Well, I don't know. Right? So you know, you would you would kind of do these interviews, and it was really fascinating to me than the end. I'd say, Well, did you think you have intuition? Oh, yeah, I have intuition. I use intuition. So what is your definition of intuition, and you get all these different definitions of what it was. But the reality is, we know that it's their joy, you state that our ability to be aware and perceive our patterns. And this is what I was talking about these deep patterns is not natural or innate, and it must be trained. And I know when I got my degree in spiritual psychology, they used to say, hey, if a camera followed you all day long, would you like what you saw? When we played it back? The patterns that you've created in life that you see, you know, the other thing they used to say was, you don't have to believe everything you think? I love that one. Because, you know, we're thinking all the time. And then as you talk about, those beliefs start to become our reality. I mean, just look at the divide that social media has created in beliefs, you know, many of them misguided at this point. But the reality is, hey, people have taken him on his belief. I believe that, you know, it's my right to go march on the Capitol. That's what I should do insurrection. Can you speak about our patterns and where they come from, and how we can become aware and train new patterns that serve us? And the greater good? Not just us, but us and the greater good?

Joey Klein
Yeah, excellent. So if we look at why we do what we do today, a lot of it is all it's all conditioned to trade. Now, it's hard to see that when we're kind of going through our day to day life, you know, that our emotions were conditioned and trained, and that our thoughts and beliefs about ourselves in the world was conditioned and trained. And that that led to the actions that we take emotion, thought, and then and then nervous system action. But if we really if we learn to stop and sort of pay attention, and I think psychology does this pretty well in different ways, right? Where it's like, Hey, you feel this anger, and this and that's going on, let's talk about where that came from. And they tend to want to go to the past somewhere and go look at the family dynamics of what was happening here. And, you know, there's some there's some, you know, good modalities out there that can show us like, Oh, like this conditioned or trained, you know, this way of being and when you learn to sort of, you know, pay attention and you take the time to really notice, like, hey, how am I feeling and where did this come from? You can in order to see that, that you didn't make it up, right, it didn't just happen, you know, it came from somewhere, and then we adopted it as a reflex. And this is a really great thing. Because if we adopted our emotions and our thoughts and our behavior as reflexes, and that was a train process, well, then we can untrain. And we can retrain some new inner processes, and emotions and thoughts and actions that lead to the different results that we want to create. And so the more we start to pay attention, the more we're going to see how our inner reality truly is driving our actions and producing producing our results. I had my one of my early mentors, you know, said to me, Joey, are you aware, you know, what an angry person you are? And back then I was, you know, I was extremely angry, I was I was unhinged, right. And I remember thinking, I'm not angry, I'm, I'm totally fine, right? I couldn't, I literally couldn't see, you know, myself in different ways, even though I was getting in fights all the time. And, you know, I was getting arguments. And, you know, my behavior was such that I was extremely angry. But I would have told you, I was not an angry person. So I couldn't see myself. You know, we are the hardest people for ourselves to see. But once I was able to see, oh, you know, what, I'm a, I'm an angry person, and I'm doing these hurtful things when I'm angry. You know, it's not, it's not like my fault that I'm hurting these people, because I can't control my behavior and action. So many people think that the way they feel is their fault, it's not so much a fault, as it is, hey, let's pay attention to just what is happening here. What are we doing. And what I noticed is that when I learned to pay attention to just being angry, and step out of that, and, you know, learn to calm myself down and literally acts as a place of peace, all of a sudden, my behavior was radically different. It's like, it's a different intelligence. And all of a sudden, you go to a place of acceptance, you go to a place of peace, you go to a place of just naturally caring for other people. And you're not the same person in that space and that pattern of peace, if you will. And so how do we contribute to the betterment of other people in humanity and serve? It really is as simple as becoming a better version of ourselves, and Accessing Higher emotions such as joy, peace, compassion, etc. Because from those spaces, we're not going to hurt other people. And we're in it's a natural impulse to make contribution.

Greg Voisen
It is. And I think that one of the one of the things that has to happen is we, if we're going to give, we're going to make a contribution. No. And the contribution is going to be for the greater good of everybody, not just ourselves. And I think that's really important. Can you speak with us about some of the inner matrix system trainings, practices that are designed to help clients bring deep programs and patterns to a level of conscious awareness, one you mentioned is staying fully present in the moment, and allowing our thoughts and feelings to pass without judgment or attachment. I have a little thing right here that sits here all day long. And I'll show it to you. It's no secret. I also have a nail clock on my wall. Now, the now clock which I can't, I can show you, it has no hands on it, it just has a pendulum that goes back and forth with our home. And it just says now in the middle. This non attachment is one of the Buddhist Four Noble Truths that you've blended into some of these practices into the inner matrix or is it is what I'm saying. Because attachment is really a big thing. In Buddhism, you know, Buddha says, you know, there's suffering, and then there's into suffering. Well, the only way you're gonna get the end of suffering is when you change, and you realize you're the one that created your own suffering, you're 100% responsible for your own suffering. So speak with us, if you would, about how the inner matrix kind of works at that some of the practices that you use to help people have this realization like you did that you were in denial of what was going on, and how you help people reprogram? Yeah,

Joey Klein
yeah, I definitely think like, I agree with you 100%, around the everything happens now. Like, that's really the only place we exist. And an attachment like learning to be unattached is critical. And seeing ourselves is critical, too, and sometimes not so easy. And so when we look at, well, how do I see myself I find, you know, it's a combination of some things, because if we like, stop, and we, you know, try to meditate sometimes right and close our eyes and go, Well, what's there, it's like, it's like, nothing's there. Right? The mind goes quiet. And, you know, it's kind of like you're trying to focus on nothing, and it's hard to do sometimes, right? And so, you know, two effective ways to see ourselves is, is number one, you know, you know, ask the question, you know, how am I feeling like get in touch with the emotion that's there? And then when you notice the emotions that are there, like if you're interacting with a spouse, or you're, you know, overwhelmed with your job or your business, you know, ask why questions, right? Why am I overwhelmed? And then write the answer down. Why am I anxious? Write the answer down, then ask it again. Why am I anxious? And what I find is that when we ask questions of ourselves like this, it kind of pulls out where we actually are in a way we can see it, especially if we write it down. I'm a fan of writing things down, so that it's outside of myself, and I really can look at it more objective. And then the din then decides, do I want to detach from this? Do I want to unattached from this? You know, there's a lady in that showed up this last weekend. And, you know, she had a divorce, right? She recently broke up with her with her husband. And she had this list of things. And she said, Joey, but what if my anger is justified as an example, and she had these reasons why she was very justified in being angry. And I shared with her, I said, you know, of course, you're, you're justified in being angry, and there's nothing wrong with feeling angry, and you can choose to be angry. The question you got to ask yourself is, is it worth it to me to hold this for another day, another five days, another year, another five years, and then what that that anger, and the way we think when we're angry, is going to mean for the impact that will have on you and your health and stress and the people that you love and care about, and the meaningful times it might take away from those times, as you define yourself as this reality? And so yes, like, like, like, you know, do sometimes bad or wrong things happen to us? Absolutely. And so if we hold on to that anger, as an example, and we don't give ourselves to unattached, from that, or to let go of that, or accept that it's there, then then it's a driver in our life. But when we go, Hey, yes, I feel angry, yes, these thoughts are there. But I'm going to let go of the idea that this is the only way to perceive reality. Because if we hold on to the idea that this is the only way to perceive reality, well, then we're going to be angry. And that's our quote, unquote, truth as people say, sometimes, and then we're and then we're stuck, we don't have another option. But once we say, I choose no longer to be angry, I must change this. Now we can start to say, Hey, I choose to have compassion, I choose to be grateful that I'm not in this relationship anymore. That wasn't working. For me, it's time for me to go on to something better, you know, we can choose to take on a different way of being a new pattern, which will then you know, translate to new results and new outcomes in our life. So you know, it's paying attention to where we are. And then even if it doesn't seem that way, in the moment, to have the courage to go, it doesn't have to be this way, it could be a different way. And that gives us that ability to pull back a little bit, and then start to get clear about who do we want to be? And then redirect, well,

Greg Voisen
I think then, and when the outcomes are beneficial by going the new way, opening up. I remember one of the masters this was Byron, Katie, I don't know her or not. But he used to get people on stage. And they would just like your lady who's went through the divorce and said, I'm justified, these are the reasons and she goes, Is it true? And then she'd say, Is it really true? Is it really true? And when you start to ask that question around truth, you start to really realize, maybe it's not true, it's something you made up that it was pretty one sided, the divorce, or whatever, and you're allowed to let go. But I loved her questioning. And she had three simple questions. And she'd get people on stage in front of hundreds of people and answer these questions. And they began to realize, and you'd see it happen right in the middle of the audience. It was like, Is it true? Is it really true, is what's going on for you, so she was a master at it. Joy, your book is filled with valuable practices and wisdom to help one transform their life, and to manifest a life to create a life of love, peace and happiness and abundance. If you want to leave the listeners with three takeaways, and or practices that would help them in some way on their personal journeys. What advice would you give him?

Joey Klein
I'd say to start with, you know, just entertaining the idea that that every result in our life good, bad, or indifferent, in terms of how we look at it is created from the inside out. It didn't it didn't it wasn't an accident. It didn't just occur. It didn't just happen upon us, but we created it from the inside out. And so number two to start paying attention, well, what is happening inside me in relationship to what's happening outside of myself? What are the emotions that I feel with the thoughts that the mind is thinking? And then go on to a third step, which is, as opposed to it like we were just talking about or you are speaking so well, in terms of you know, about Byron Katie, is as opposed to, you know, you know, validating or rationalizing or justifying why our emotions and thoughts are true and real, rather ask a different question. So to ask the question, hey, it does this emotion in this thought, drive me toward the outcome that I want to experience in my life, the outcome I want to create in my life, and if it does, then lean into it, invest in it, hold on to it, and if it does it no matter how real it may seem, start to give yourself permission to evolve it and change it and adopt the thoughts and the emotions that that will produce the results in your life that you aspire to, and that you deserve to have at the end of the day. It's great

Greg Voisen
advice, Joey. And for my listeners, again, if you want to get this book, you're going to go to the inner matrix.com, you're going to see a big banner there. And it's basically gonna say, 60% off limited time only while supplies last, I would say, go get a copy of this book. I'm going to hold it up here, hang on. Yeah, in formal show in that direction, but the reality is, this is the book you want to get. I encourage you all to go get this. It's 995. And he pays the shipping. How good is that, I mean, there's no better way to get a book than to pay 995. And then he's going to ship it to your door. The other thing I would encourage you to do is to go to the inner matrix systems.com You're gonna see a video of Joey there, you'll see a video on the other one as well. But you're also going to find out more about the program, the things we've been talking about today, and how these would apply to your life, and how this can help you make transform, transformation. As I said earlier in in here, Joe has trained over 80,000 people and I think it speaks for themselves. You can actually see some of the testimonials. He said 30 701 on ones sessions with certified I am training is happening all the time because he's not the only trainer. And the programs are power of focus, power of intuition, power of vision, and power of emotion. Definitely go there. Watch the videos, learn more about joey Klein, his program, the inner matrix, joy, Namaste to you. Thank you for spending some time on the show with us and allowing my listeners to get some wisdom and insight regarding your book and the inner matrix system. appreciate having you on.

Joey Klein
It's been great. Thank you so much for having me here. And that's been fun.

Greg Voisen
Good.

powered by

For this podcast, it is with joy and honor to be joined by a brilliant and competent CEO and author, Rhamy Alejeal.

Rhamy, along with his wife, owns People Processes, a provider of integrated, automated HR processes. It helps hundreds of companies across the US to learn how to stop pushing paper and start prioritizing people. Rhamy also serves on the Federal Reserve’s Industry Council on Healthcare, providing insights into employer costs and how they affect businesses in today’s marketplace.

With his expertise , he also turned their company’s concept on to a book entitled People Processes: How Your People Can Be Your Organization’s Competitive Advantage. Rhamy lays out the steps for optimizing procedures such as onboarding, scheduling, payroll, reporting, compliance, and communication to address problems like unmotivated employees, poor performance, high turnover, among others.

If you want to know more about Rhamy and his amazing works, you may visit their website by clicking here.

I hope you enjoy this engaging interview with Rhamy Alejeal. Happy listening!

THE BOOK

People Processes reveals how you can use technology to streamline your personnel operations. Taking you through every component of HR workflow, Rhamy Alejeal lays out the steps for optimizing rote procedures such as onboarding, scheduling, payroll, reporting, compliance, and communication. You’ll learn how to make the needed changes and, even better, discover what the employee experience looks like after you do.

THE AUTHOR

Rhamy, along with his wife, owns People Processes, a provider of integrated, automated HR processes. It helps hundreds of companies across the US to learn how to stop pushing paper and start prioritizing people. Rhamy also serves on the Federal Reserve’s Industry Council on Healthcare, providing insights into employer costs and how they affect businesses in today’s marketplace.

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And we have Rhamy Alejeal joining us and he's joining us from Memphis, Tennessee. Rhamy, Good day to you. How are you?

Rhamy Alejeal
Good day, Greg. I'm doing great. I appreciate you having me on.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's a pleasure having you on and you know, People Processes is really a challenge for most companies and most HR directors and CEOs and CEOs. And especially during this pandemic time, it's been really challenging, not only finding the labor, but keeping the labor. And today we're going to be talking about a lot of those issues, and how Rhamy helps people get through that to the other side, and makes it so much easier for him. And if you want to learn more about Rhamy and his company, go to people processes.com It's just like it sounds p e o p le, p-r-o-c-e-s-s-e-s.com. There you can learn more about his company, his solutions, what he provides for his clients nationwide. And Rhamy, I'm gonna tell my listeners just a little bit about you. Romea, Gao found German people processes, a provider of integrated automated HR systems on October 1 2009, Rama and his team worked with hundreds of companies across the United States, helping them learn how to stop pushing paper and start prioritizing people. I love that. In addition, Rhamy serves on the Federal Reserve's Industry Council on healthcare providing insights into employer costs, and how they affect businesses in today's marketplace. He holds a bachelor's degree in finance, economics, and an MBA with a focus on economics. And we're talking today about his new book, can you hold that up? People processes, there you go. It's a number one best seller in Amazon, under the HR category, and one of Inc. dot coms top 10 leadership books that you can get. And again, we'll put a link to Amazon to get this book, we'll also put a link to Romney's website, while running to set the stage for the interview. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? How did you get into the world of HR, and what's the greatest lesson that you learned from people and processes because every day your team, you have to deal with complex issues, but you help people simplify it and make it easier in their life. So tell us a little bit about yourself and how you and your team do that?

Rhamy Alejeal
Well, like any good HR person there, I was five years old Halloween, I dressed up as an HR person, you know, with a checklist and a funny hat. No, no one ever winds up in this career. You know, I wanted to be an astronaut. And this This is where I wound up. But I over the years, I was very entrepreneurial. I started young building businesses, growing businesses. And the bottleneck that most small businesses had, that were marginally successful, I'd say the truth is, most small businesses fail, because they have a crap product. They don't know what they're doing. They, they have a problem, right? That's the first step is don't suck at your job. And that's a, that's a hard enough lift for many people. But once you get through that, and you start creating standard operating procedures, and you start building out a team who's supposed to follow those items where I saw, the most bottleneck was in that realm of people, and management. And that's what attracted me to it. It's a big problem. And I wanted to help solve that. My wife and I started this company together 12 years ago, fresh out of graduate school. And we have focused on various parts of it from, you know, insurance and compensation benefits analysis, that kind of world thinking that the answer to getting good people was providing a great compensation package, as part of it, to investing in purchasing companies that were in the realm of payroll time off management time, and labor, timekeeping, thinking, Oh, it's not just having a great package, you also have to have a great, you know, software experience, and that's part of it too. But over the years that's developed really into a full suite of HR, that's not just the tools, and not just the information, but also the culture, the performance management, the pieces needed to really remove people as a bottleneck as best you can inside the organizations

Greg Voisen
Did either you have your wife, I mean, usually when you get people that are working in organizational development, cultural transformation, this kind of area, they had an interest to go into psychology, where either you weren't because you came from a financial background, but what was it that kind of intrigued you both Muzo psychotic, the softer side, they call it the soft side? You know? People say, hey, in my balance sheet, my biggest asset are my people. But what is the actual cost of having those people? I know you deal with turnover rates, you deal with retention issues, you deal with all kinds of things. But how did the two of you go from? Well, in your case, it was your financial guy by

Rhamy Alejeal
On labor economics right saver. So I loved economics. And I still do and I, I approach very much from that data world, I love figuring out the motivations and drivers and turning them into dollars. That's my world. I absolutely love it. My wife, undergraduate in theater, stage management, she came from the theater world, her mother's an opera singer and her, you know, father's a PhD and choral music, very useful. He's a great guy, he doesn't see that. But he, it's that world, she became a stage manager and at 20 was put it was managing shows with multimillion dollar budgets and huge staffs. She was a savant at stage management. The business world needs both It needs people. You need the data and the guidance and the academic side to understand and informed decision making. But Liz's, the show must go on. And we're going to bring in people from all walks of life, with differing levels of skills and experience for their unique value, and put them together and in three months turn that into a show, honestly, has had a much bigger impact than my ability to do statistical analysis.

Greg Voisen
And I think the key is in the stages of our life, you know, she's got all these actors on the on in the play. Same thing in business, those are the actors that are playing in the business. And with her background and your background, you make a dynamic duo team to actually help employers navigate that, because look, you can write a script for the play, which would be the business plan, you can put that actors on the stage, but doesn't always work out that way. What is the purpose of writing people processes? And what did you find missing and needed to be communicated me to a world that was really in reality, are readily available for business owners to reference in the book?

Rhamy Alejeal
That is a great question. I, again, come from a bit of a nerd background. So I'll tell you when I wrote my book, it was 440, single page work single spaced word of pages with graphs and charts and analysis. And my, my editors, sat me down and said, Rhamy, are you writing a textbook you would like to be used in graduate HR courses? Or are you writing a book for business owners to understand and make progress inside their business, they smacked me around pretty hard. In the end, people processes have a few. The book has a few key guiding principles, one, it should give you a next step, it should give you something that anyone can read pretty much at any level of experience, and have something trigger to go Alright, well, that's a place that can improve. The second, the SEL, is that systems need to be applied in HR. And many people miss that an HR, some people are data people, some people are people, people, a lot of people in HR, love the people side of it, but they miss the great gain of modernity, of systematic improvement. And so we try to lay out the key systems and how you can work on them to make incremental improvement. The wellness of the Yeah. Oh, Greg, you're on mute, buddy.

Greg Voisen
Sorry. Well, we'll edit that. It is, you know, interesting in the book, and I'll let you get to that the purpose of the book, you know, the purpose of the book is a roadmap. You know, in essence that you know, if I was just say it, that's really what it is. But your roadmap is unique, right? There are certain things and elements that every HR person comes through, but I think you bring a uniqueness to it. What would you say is people processes is unique?

Rhamy Alejeal
to me, the you again, it's there's nothing new under the sun, I am amalgamate are of all great best practices. What I look at from the book specifically, is its ability to set up each one of these employee life cycles or key events and in in HR key systems in HR, and not just put them in place or tell you what to tell you what to do in them. But to establish a system that improves itself, because no matter how well I write my book, it will be wrong in five years in HR, it will be very wrong in 20 years, right so it's more about designing the process. SS that help you put something in place, run it, make an incremental change, measure it and come out with a new solution. And that is so much more valuable than any one leap forward. So all of our clients and the things that are really our claim to fame is putting in place these systems and processes that improve themselves over time, more than any stroke of genius, I have, oh, you know, you really could do it this way. It's about making sure it improves over time.

Greg Voisen
Well, and I think most of our listeners know who are managing, managing people or an HR or CFO or, or the CFO, it's an iterative process, you know, everything, as it relates to business is an iterative process. It's always about fine tuning and making it better. And I think what you provide is the little touches that can fine tune the process. And in the introduction of the book, you tell an interesting story about Christie of a 40, something manager was looking for just an opportunity, and finally got it. Can you share her interesting story with our listeners, and how it kind of relates to people processes? Yeah, I thought Christie was

Rhamy Alejeal
the avatar I was trying to write to, in this book. Christie is was she worked in a nonprofit, she wound up becoming the executive director of a nonprofit after working in a few other places. And the nonprofit she took over had a mission that was dear to her heart. That was very important. But it had been around a while, in a good way. It was a pillar of the community. And everyone knew this nonprofit. And that it solves these problems. But she went in there and found the average employee tenure was 35 years. The average the average employee age was 63. Not the end of the world, I'm not an ageist, but this company had stagnated, they were doing the same things they were doing 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. And when she went into this nonprofit, the management, the managers of it, were at best paper pushers, they were completely consumed with the day to day administration of it and no real progress on the mission, or the way they did things had been achieved in many, many years. They kind of stagnated. Christi went in and it wasn't that their mission was wrong. It wasn't what they what they were doing in the community had any sort of problem or, you know, they needed to revise those had been kept up with, but the way they manage their own people was the primary issue. And she implemented many changes that around performance management, recruiting, onboarding, even things like time and labor time off payroll management, that moved the average manager from spending 30 ish hours a week on effectively administration to being able to focus significant Lee on their time moving that administrative timeframe, down to two or three hours a week, to being able to focus on actually improving the systems and improving the outcomes of their people. And, and I think that's kind of the dream, right? The dream is that you're spending your time working on the business than in it, both from an executive level. But even at a managerial level, if you're able to get rid of the rote, repetitive administrative side of things, you're able to spend significantly more times making improvements. And that was really what Christie captured and was able to do inside her nonprofit.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, speaking to nonprofit because you use that example, you know, many businesses look to the triple bottom line, and it's people plan it. Right and purpose. Right, right. Are you working more with businesses? Are you seeing a shift? Because look, it's the people in the business, you know, if you don't have a handle around that, you have one of the biggest challenges culture, the people, whatever you want to call it. It's my human resources. It's my highest investment that I have. But where are you seeing the shift, if you would, for retraction and attention of millennial type people to come to work inside of companies and stay where the planet and purpose is aligned with the people that they're hiring? So that they can feel like and are not just feel like I don't want to use a term like feel like but that there is a difference being made by the company so TOMS shoes or Patagonia or any of these kinds of examples. What are you seeing the shift in smaller businesses are you seeing much?

Rhamy Alejeal
Yes, for first of all, I guess I should disclose that 70% or so of my clients are nonprofit, I actually very tied to companies that are mission driven. The remaining 30%, we have a pretty strong selection process. But one of the key items, I find the most successful for profit businesses are those that are a mission that has a business surrounding them, not a business, that's figured out what their mission is going to be. Right, right. So in our organization, which is a for profit business, our drive is 101, great places to work. The one is us, we work with only 100 clients, at any given time, we give up to a year's notice when we let somebody go, and we only work with those 100 companies. And it's that limitation has allowed us to focus on our focus our efforts to the extent that we make an impact in the lives of the business owners, the managers and the employees. And that's very much how we drive it. We want 10,000 Wonderful, happy employees that we're taking care of as an HR department. And so you're not

Greg Voisen
Just a jar, you're really much more expansive than that. And I think when people go to your website, they'll see that that's the case.

Rhamy Alejeal
But those 10,000, but the key is that the mission drives us, right, in the clients we work with. A lot of that is sometimes the business owners have to take a step back, if they want to attract people who are highly talented, who are going to give above and beyond a paycheck for time to think about it when they wake up in the morning, oh man, how can I make that better, you have to have something that matters more than getting a paycheck. And that that, that is a key part of what I find is a lot of times business owners in the for profit space, they actually have that mission in the back of their head. Sometimes they've even tied their own personal finances to that mission. But the communication internally, and the alignment of the employees to that mission is a place where HR can make a big difference and communication.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, it's a it's a dance that we play this between the two of these we know we've got to make income, we've got to make payroll. And but we want to do something that will better the world and make a bigger impact. And I think that's important. It's just like me with compassionate communications Foundation, my nonprofit, when I help the homeless, or the people in Ukraine, and I take nothing from the show. My goal in my mission through doing these interviews is to educate, inform and inspire my audience, while at the same time providing benefit and relief to people that are underprivileged. So I look at that mission. That's what gets me up every morning. That's what drives me to do what I do. In in your section on shifting focus to people you speak about popular financial, and a company that provides HR solutions to help businesses talk to listeners about popular financial, and what are some of the challenges you had in making this complicated, uncomplicated? Well,

Rhamy Alejeal
Poplar? No you to the poplar financial was the company that Liz and I founded 12 years ago and did all this HR Finance, payroll work. It's poorly named. But what did I know? I thought we were going to be more in insurance and compensation.

Greg Voisen
I absolutely. Repeat, I like people processes better. We renamed

Rhamy Alejeal
It. Yes. We rebranded online, all of our stuff makes a lot more sense. Yeah. Because I often got credit, like, do you do mortgages? I'm like, well, here's why. We all have our own business lessons to

Greg Voisen
Know we do bark off of trees, we do barks often.

Rhamy Alejeal
So yes, people processes. But I will say some of the biggest, you know, challenges or the some of the biggest things that we've put in place. In our company, we have around 140 individual items that we consider that make up the employee experience and the business systems. And that is that some of those things are simple, like compensation analysis. Some of them are more soft, like cultural communications, core values, those sorts of items. And basically, what we do as a as an organization is when a company hires us, we come in and analyze what they're doing based on those 140 items. We just say, walk us through it. How do you happen? And in a small business with 20 employees, you know what 90 of them the answer is, we don't do that. Right? Or I downloaded it off Google five years ago. That's how I know I'm compliant. Right? So we work through all those items. And then we lay out a 12-month strategic plan and we work through Each system, each little grouping, one month at a time, talk to management, talk to individual stakeholders, put together a program presented, get approval communicated, push it back out, it's step by step as we work through those items. And most of those items are actually good. It's developed a little bit since the book came out. But most of them are in that last section of the book where we kind of lay out all the key employee lifecycle events and processes that we're just going through. And we're saying, what do you do?

Greg Voisen
It's like anybody who has to take an intake to get an audit. That's right, this is kind of your audit process, that you know that when these steps are being followed, it works. And then if they're not, there's a challenge. And that that allows you to determine the focus of your employees that are going to work with these clients and how they're going to get it done. And you state that onboarding is an important welcome. I couldn't agree more. We were talking about that with a client this morning, actually. What advice can you give to the HR leaders to be able to conduct seamless and successful and I'm going to add to this kind of salient, you know, look, if you go to work for Disney, you're gonna have a two-week onboarding, you're gonna know who Walt Disney was, you're gonna know, Roger Disney was, you're gonna know everything about the company, before you start sweeping the streets at Disneyland and Anna, okay, or whatever the job is serving food. But you're gonna know, but most small businesses do not have a two-week onboarding process. So how do you help people create that?

Rhamy Alejeal
So onboarding, I would first address the mindset of the business owner, especially in I would push out that the acquisition of a new employee, from recruiting through interview and selection to the actual offer letter, and to bring them on is as equally challenging. And as huge and as large of an impact in your organization, especially in a small business that's only got five or six people, or 10, or 12 people, you're talking a huge percentage of your labor pool is coming on, it's as big of a deal as getting the largest client you've ever gotten. Imagine you had worked so hard to market, to identify, to qualify, then to sell a huge client, they signed up, and then you said, Great, I'm gonna FedEx you a stack of black and white photocopies that are kind of crooked, fill those out, and we'll be all good to work together. That's, that's onboarding for most small businesses. You went through all this crap, and then you're gonna say, All right, here's your paperwork. Thank you. Thank you. Let me know if you have any questions as Sally, she'll just see what Sally does. You can do that exactly. acquisition process for a 10th of your labor pool. Or your glory forbids your fifth employee, man, no wonder turnover is ridiculous among these companies, because you got it, you haven't put it, it's if you treated your clients that way, they would send that back to you. With a frowny face note and just never talk to you again, your employees need to be treated the same way. And you're gonna get the same results. By setting your onboarding up, you're doing the same things you do with a client, you're intaking gathering the information you need. You're orientating them, here's what's going to happen. You're setting expectations, here's how we're going to interact and what the deliverables look like. Right? It's the same steps you're going through with your employees, you're gonna bring them in, doesn't have to be in person, I highly recommend digital onboarding, it's much more systematic and consistent, which is very good. But what you're going to do is introduce them to the company history, you're going to introduce them to the company leadership. And then as you grow, you're going to start walking through each layer of the company. Here's an overview of the departments. Here's a deep dive on your department. Here's a deep dive on your job. And you're laying out how they orientate themselves in the organization and where they need to go for help, where how they interact, how they fit in. And then you're going to lay out performance expectations, just like you would with a client, here's what we expect, here's what we're going to get. And you're going to hopefully, through this process, not just orientate them to what's happening, but how things happen. So you want to talk about the culture in terms of the behaviors that you expect and that you expect other employees to have towards them. Just some basic cultural pieces like that make a big difference. And I..

Greg Voisen
For me, your monitor just went off. I saw that I should be back now. Okay. All right. Well, I have to edit that. All right. But yeah..

Rhamy Alejeal
So implementing those cultural onboarding steps is not does not have to be particularly time consuming. And I but it does not have to be particularly polished. Disney has the down to a fine art. And they have animators who are going to draw a cartoon of a new employee coming to the cafeteria. Get your cell phone out, pointed at your head, and tell people why you do what you do and what you're working on. And then have their manager do the same thing. And also lay out what they're looking for in the new cafeteria server. I love when my cafeteria servers do this, I hate when they do this. I can't wait to meet you. It's a minute and a half video on a shaky cell phone. Yeah, it will have a huge impact.

Greg Voisen
And also, you know, maybe even show them the org chart and where they are in their chart, right. You know, give me an idea of the structure of the company and so on. You know, you, you state that many HR processes are time sensitive and delays and they're missing information that can cause more than simply logistical issues. How do you recommend that HR leaders deal with delays in HR processing and implementation because it it's a it's a jagged process at best unless there's a system. The other thing is to keep the flow of perspective employed employees in a pipeline. So you're constantly either interviewing or walking. I don't care if you're using indeed or you're using LinkedIn or whatever process you're using, speak with us about creating a better process?

Rhamy Alejeal
Sure. Well, as you mentioned, the future employee pipeline is an absolute recruiter, we call it the recruiting process that often stops starts at Job analysis, what you're looking for, through advertisement through interview to select for those items, so on and so forth, you need a process, you need to be able to keep track of it. In general, HR is one of the most antiquated systems in most small businesses and even forget small businesses in most businesses, because there's less external pressure. If your website looks like it was built in 2008, your executive is going to know it, and they're going to get yelled at about it. But if your process for requesting time off, you know, requires they use Internet Explorer, you're gonna engage that's what the employees have to do, right? Or God, they have to fill out a piece of paper and send it somewhere. So what I would say is that in order to address most of these process bottlenecks, it's the adoption of technology saves you a ton. The number of people or the number of businesses not small either that still have their benefits enrollment done on paper, where an employee writes in their hire date, their date of birth, their social, all their kids, socials, all their kids dates of birth on a piece of paper and checks the boxes of what they want. I have seen multi Oh, I think the lawsuit was about 190,000 Was what it's settled for. Because an employee while filling out their paperwork, reversed the hire date, and birthday. Right? This wound up going into an insurance carrier, who for some reason insured someone who's five years old as an employee. But when the cancer claim came,

Greg Voisen
denied the claim. Right?

Rhamy Alejeal
Yeah, is this very basic, if they had had an automated system, it would have been completely obvious that you can't put in a date of birth that's under 19 years old, or whatever. Right? So these sorts of items, over time compounds when you don't have good systems. So that's just a random example. But in general, automation, and better technology allows you to design processes that save you from dealing with these crap burning fires that come up every three weeks in HR, that are because someone did something wrong. And by automating the submission, you can make those problems go away

Greg Voisen
the devils in the details usually and you know, your company helps people get the details right. And put it in perspective to how important it really is. And I think these HR departments, at most in these small companies have maybe one-part time person or a person and they have other job functions on top of it that the employers as laid on them. So they find it challenging at best do their job effectively. Whereas if they had systems, they could do the job much more effectively. And you state that communications is the most important component of HR as it is the multiplier that makes everything you you've done work effectively. What are some of the tips that you have for the HR leaders listening to become better at communicating both good and bad news to employees?

Rhamy Alejeal
Very good question. Communication is the differentiator in good versus bad HR. I mean, you could have a bad HR department in that they don't know what they're doing. And they don't have good systems and all that. And that's terrible. But many HR problems are perception problems, their problems with the information that is available to the employee and how it was communicated. A few quick tips, good news, or bad news or new processes and new policies, whatever it is, written, is best explaining what. But video best explains why I don't believe that there should be it, you know, and if you can't, if you're not a person who can do a video, you gotta go talk in person, that's the downside. But everything you do, that interacts with your employees, needs to have a why behind it. Employees are understanding, believe it or not, they're gonna have that they understand that you're a business with limited resources, you have to make choices between certain items. And you can't provide six months of paid maternity, because of this thing. And that you have to lay that out for them. The why is incredibly important. So we communicate what in writing, and why via videos. And nothing we do, whether that's benefits, whether that's HR, an HR policy, around sexual harassment around partying at the workplace, drinking on the job, whatever it is, whether it's a new update, or revision, or just a brand new thing that's come out, there's a paper aspect, and then there's a communication aspect of it. And we invest as much time in our videography, graphic design and copywriting, as we do in the actual HR side of things. And that's why we're perceived as incredibly good. The truth is sherm.org, get your share membership, you can go get the same policies that 99% of businesses are going to use, and they're just fine. But the communication will separate you.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it always has been around communication. I know companies that specialize in actually giving employees a statement of their benefits, right? Now we're gonna employ, so an employee benefit statement. So they understand the value of working at the company, you know, we're going to pay FICA tax, and we're going to pay SDI and we're going to pay all these taxes that we pay for you and contribute in your time off your vacation, pay all of that. And when you add it to the normal paycheck, you get to see what the real paycheck is, right? Sure. And for a lot of people, that makes a big difference. And that statement is really big. You speak about automation, as the important factor to keeping the processes consistent, and round effectively improve the overall HR, what's the best bit of advice or tips you can provide to listeners, whether they're in HR or not about automation is its function in HR, because the reality is, if you've got a CEO listening, or CFO listening, you know, that these are the kinds of things they need to understand as well.

Rhamy Alejeal
The bane of automation is siloing. The number one issue, especially in larger enterprise systems, is simply that there are so many legacy items and ways of interacting, that you cannot, that it's very difficult to actually automate well, and so that that's why some of these things take ridiculous amounts of investment, because you're replacing a training system that you've had for 14 years, and a payroll system, and a time and labor system, and a Benefits Management way of doing things, and a retirement platform. And there's all these different pieces. And if your HR person, every time they have to hire somebody has to go in and add them to payroll, and inform a benefits carrier and another benefits carrier and another benefits carrier and the retirement company, and then turn on their timekeeping and then get their security turned on, and then order all their materials. The likelihood of a mistake is it's not a likelihood it is a certainty that it will happen. automation allows us to make sure that they happen the same way every time. And the hard part of it. The tip is you have to fight the siloing of data. It is so easy to go, Oh, here's a new leadership training software. Let's Well that sounds great. We'll have a weekly training system on how to manage people. Great, great, great. And it's $7 a month per employee. This is perfect. And you get an approval for that and you put it in and now your managers are running through a training system that has no connection to the onboarding of employees that has no connection to the termination thereof. The number of companies we go in and they're paying for a hunt Word, subscriptions that they don't have that 100 licenses on a subscription for people that have been terminated. Because that's a thing that doesn't automate and connect. So when you're evaluating your systems, you need to think about its ability to either provide everything you need, which is unlikely, or at least integrate and automate across the board. Small businesses have it easier, they don't have, you know, decades of legacy systems to make them talk for them. They need to be thinking future facing. Right, when they're evaluating these, they need to be thinking Well, right now, I don't have a 401k. But how does this work when we do one? And right now, I don't have a need for in depth data analysis to figure out what you know what levels these employees are behaving at. But what's that going to look like in the future? And make sure you have a backbone you can grow?

Greg Voisen
Would you say people processes is not may not be a fair comparison, but is like the people soft for smaller businesses?

Rhamy Alejeal
I compete against workday all the time. Yeah, okay. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. And, you know, we were, we were, the difference is between an enterprise so we're in it, we buy and build out enterprise multimillion dollar software that is used at 1000 Plus employee companies. And then we do it for the client, they have access, they can go in and design a multi tiered workflow with custom forms, that splits out and waits for different things and all that. But if they work with us, we assigned them a system engineer, their HR managers, like we need this thing to work their business owners like this is a problem. The system engineer programs, all that. And we have to do that when we originally started with our large we wanted to build software that a small business owner could use, like the big boys to automate these things, right? It didn't honestly didn't work. I mean, we could, we could sell it, but they wouldn't use it right and have the time or the expertise. We learned that for companies that fewer than a couple 100 employees. The only way to do this is to have a staff of six or seven experts who can handle each.

Greg Voisen
One. Do you have your own platform? Or do you use a guy that talks to all of these others and brings various pieces and elements in to make it happen? Or is it both?

Rhamy Alejeal
It's both? Yeah. So we customize, we have our own kind of software development around certain HR functions. But we use master tax which is ADPs large tax engine that does geospatial taxing, there are 13,000 tax districts, it would take more than my entire company just to keep track of that. So we write for timekeeping, we love you know, timekeeping, I can I could program a basic clock in and out system, or my team could, but we use Cronos we've bought their wholesale license, it's integrated, and the clients don't know anything about Chronos. But if they need physical clocks, I can't I'm not gonna go source from China a bunch of physical clocks, I'm gonna call up Chronos and say, Send me six biometric clocks with thumb prints, play around with our system, right? So yeah, it's a combination of unique pieces and enterprise grade pieces.

Greg Voisen
Sounds fascinating. I have a client right now that using time docs, they only have 100 employees. But, you know, in when you get in small business world, a lot of these people are still using QuickBooks. Well, QuickBooks has its own time, timesheet. And especially when you're trying to do job costing, and you bring in some other vendor from the outside, it complicates matter, because now it has to be brought in and then your payroll is being done by decision HR. And, you know, you start to get all of these systems that are trying to talk to one another. And, you know, people you know, just want to put a gun to their head.

Rhamy Alejeal
So in ours, you know, we integrate with QuickBooks, we integrate with Xero for the small business side, so it all flows through, we're going to talk to your CFO, we're gonna talk to your CFO or your finance team, import your chart of accounts and connect all those pieces for time and labor management tea sheets is great. You can assign jobs, you can assign departments, but we can assign not just those, but also collect mileage, collect tips, allow people to insert certain piecework items that give them sales, all that complexity that you need in an enterprise grade timekeeping system. Most small businesses don't need but in order for us to be able to serve 100 Different ones we need. And that's where our system is pretty different. We're able to really bring those in depth enterprise grade features, and then tie them back to a QuickBooks chart of accounts. So everything's put through,

Greg Voisen
Well, you've gotten a wonderful process and you understand and I think that's important because you're always doing your due diligence on other pieces of software that could have a great integration and bring a dashboard into the system that would be effective and allowing somebody to improve their processes. If you're gonna leave our listeners with three great takeaways from your book, what would they be and how He suggests that they put him to action.

Rhamy Alejeal
All right? Small business, we're gonna take them piece by piece, small business, maybe you're hiring your first few people. You suck at it, that's how it is, you're new to it, you're going to hire the wrong person, you're probably going to treat them wrong, you don't know how to set their performance expectations. So start hiring the easy jobs. First, small business owners. If your third hire is a co CEO, you're doing it wrong. Hire the simplest jobs first, with the recognition that you got a place to learn and you got to, you're not risking your entire company on this higher. So start simple. And look at it as an iterative process so that as you put things in place, you can improve them over time and scale up. Small business, medium business, you are 20 to 150 employees, you're you've got a system in place you're growing for those. For those, I want you to look at each one of your key HR systems. They're listed out in my book. But they may be recruiting, onboarding, performance management benefits and compensation, off boarding, lay out what you think are those key systems, you should have at that size, some sort of process guide that you kind of follow for those things to some degree may not be well defined. But I want you to write a goal for each one of those systems, is the goal of onboarding, to get pieces of paper filled out, to not go to jail, those are reasonable goals. But perhaps the goal of your onboarding should be to as quickly as possible change from an enthusiastic new hire, to someone who can be trusted to make decisions in the absence of management. Think about what the goals are for each of those systems, and then look at your processes. You're smart, you're smart chap, you'll figure it out. I have 100% belief that if you turn your brain to any one of those processes, after setting a goal, you will see five things that could be improved very quickly. Pick one, and make a change small piece at a time. Larger companies, enterprise great companies, my last tip, I want you to start thinking about the data you have and what conclusions you can draw from it, the interaction between your PTO system and your benefits system and your performance management system. If it's a single system, great, but a lot of times those are spread across multiple organizations, multiple divisions, think about the data analysis that you could have done to figure out if there are trends and relationships between these pieces. The best thing about automation is that it gets you clean data in it means that the result is similar that you're not going to have these screw ups. Now it's time let's say you've done all that you're going Rhamy, I've got a great HR system, what do I do next? I want you to take a minute and think about what data can teach you from that. And see if there are correlations between for example, time off that lasts longer than three days. And negative performance reviews or average utilization of time off, and the overall career track that someone has, and start seeing if that can teach you something about how your culture is maybe frontline employees, even though you say you have a highly inclusive, you know flexible schedule, but the ones that take time off seem to share not get very often promoted do that. You need to be able to analyze that data. And I recommend that would be a great step for larger organizations that already have the basics in place and if needed or improvements and are working on them to start thinking about the information they can

Greg Voisen
look. Well, those are three great trips, tips. And Rhamy it's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth, taking time to talk with our listeners, hold your book, if you're up if you would, again, please about your people processes book. I'm gonna recommend everybody go out and get that book. Also go to his website is website is filled with resources. It's people processes.com. There's an academy there, there's resources there. It's a complete HR, you literally can do that. Or just reach out to Romney. There's a phone number there. He'd be happy to take your call, or somebody within the organization would. They're based in Memphis, Tennessee. So for those of you in time zones, you know, it's eastern time zone. So do reach out to him. Let him know you're there. And let him know you've got a problem and see if he can help you resolve that either just maybe by buying the book. Or maybe he's got some simple solutions for you Rhamy. Pleasure having you on the show. Thanks so much for taking the time. Appreciate you providing your wisdom, expertise and knowledge to my listeners around the whole world of human resources and people management and people processes. That clutter.

Rhamy Alejeal
Thank you

powered by

A CEO/Founder, a trusted speaker, a bestselling author – Carol Sanford joined me for this podcast to share her thoughts, ideas and stories.

As a consistent disruptor and contrarian working side by side in designing and leading systemic business change, Carol is a founder and designer of The Regenerative Business Development Community with lifetime members of almost 500 members and of The Regenerative Change Agent Development community with regenerative change agents learning about and creating change together. She also produces podcasts and summits along with these.

Moreover, Carol is the best selling author of several books like The Regenerative Business: Redesign Work, Cultivate Human Potential, Achieve Extraordinary Outcomes, The Responsible Entrepreneur: Four Game-Changing Archetypes for Founders, Leaders, and Impact Investors, among others. Thus, I am honored that we were able to have an engaging conversation about one of her masterpieces – The Regenerative Life: Transform Any Organization, Our Society, and Your Destiny.

The Regenerative Life shows its readers how to fundamentally change the roles you play in society, enabling you to master more than you ever believed possible; grow, provide astounding innovations and bring new life and success. It guides you to see your personal and career roles differently and understands what your role is at its core.

If you’re interested in learning more about Carol and her amazing works, you may click here to be directed to her website.

Thank you for joining Carol Sanford and I in this podcast. Happy listening!

THE BOOK

THE REGENERATIVE LIFE will teach you to see your personal and career roles differently: stripping away all preconceptions of how it should be done, understanding what your role is at its core, and building yourself back up to become something new; an innovation so grounded, inspiring, and resilient, it can change the world.

THE AUTHOR

A consistent disruptor and contrarian working side by side in designing and leading systemic business change, founder and designer of The Regenerative Business Development Community and of The Regenerative Change Agent Development community and the best selling author of several books like The Regenerative Business: Redesign Work, Cultivate Human Potential, Achieve Extraordinary Outcomes; The Responsible Entrepreneur: Four Game-Changing Archetypes for Founders, Leaders, and Impact Investors, among others.

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

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My guest for this podcast is a competent professor, author of Essential Spirituality: The 7 Central Practices to Awaken Heart and Mind and a motivational speaker – Roger Walsh.

Roger graduated from Australia’s Queensland University and has degrees in psychology, physiology, neuroscience and medicine. In the present, he is a trusted professor in University of California at Irvine in the departments of Psychiatry, Philosophy, and Anthropology, as well as in the Religious Studies Program.

In this podcast, we’ve talked about his podcast series together with John Depuy, M.A. entitled Deep Transformation. Their podcasts feature great consciousness pioneers — the outstanding thinkers, sages, scientists, and activists of our time to discuss different present and relevant issues. With his experiences and expertise, Roger has also come up with several inspiring books. One of them is Essential Spirituality: The 7 Central Practices to Awaken Heart and Mind which we have also tackled in this interview.

If you want to listen to Deep Transformation’s episodes, you may visit their website by clicking here. You may also click here to access Roger’s website.

I hope you enjoy this engaging interview with Roger Walsh. Thank you and happy listening!

THE PODCAST

Deep Transformation features great consciousness pioneers — the outstanding thinkers, sages, scientists, and activists of our time to discuss different present and relevant issues. It draws on diverse ideas to seek syntheses of deep wisdom and practical know-how that integrate the best of all positions.

THE BOOK

Based on over twenty years of research and spiritual practice, written by a man who is both a spiritual practitioner and award-winning scientist, this is a groundbreaking and life-changing book. For the first time, Essential Spirituality shows how you can apply the seven practices central to all the world’s major religions in your daily life.

THE AUTHOR

Roger graduated from Australia’s Queensland University and has degrees in psychology, physiology, neuroscience and medicine. In the present, he is a trusted professor in University of California at Irvine in the departments of Psychiatry, Philosophy, and Anthropology, as well as in the Religious Studies Program. With his experiences and expertise, Roger has already come up with several inspiring books and has a collaboration of podcast series with John Dupuy.

 


You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and inviting you to listen to our latest podcast episode number 931 with the author Roger Walsh about his book entitled Essential Spirituality: The Seven Central Practices to Awaken Heart in Mind. Roger also has a new podcast out and titled Deep Transformation podcast. And I encourage everybody to go there. This podcast is brought to you by Steven s. Hoffman, author of a new book entitled, The Five Forces that change everything, how technology is shaping our future. If you want to know more about Steven s Hoffman, his programs, events and new book, please visit his website, www founder space.com. That's www fo und ERSS PAC e.com. And now for our featured podcast please listen to my engaging interview with Roger Walsh about his book entitled essential spirituality the seven central practices to awaken heart and mind. And also don't forget to take a listen to his new podcast entitled deep transformation podcast. Happy listening. Welcome back inside personal growth, this is Greg Voisen and host of inside personal growth. And joining me from Mill Valley is Roger Walsh. And Roger is a returning guest. He was on the show I say many moons ago. And the reason I say that is he was speaking about his book on the Course in Miracles that he had authored. Roger, Good day to you how you doing,

Roger Walsh
Greg? Hello, thank you so much for the chance to dialogue with you again, what a delight.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's always a pleasure speaking with you because it centers me and I hope it centers all the rest of my audience as well. Today we're going to be talking about two things. The first one I want to mention and then we'll put a link into our blog for that is a new podcast that Roger does called deep transformation podcast and that's deep tranformation dot com. And there you will learn more about Roger. And his partner John to pray is to pray, deplete, deplete nice Frenchmen. We have an Aussie and a Frenchman. So they are doing a podcast together now. And I do want to encourage my listeners to go to that deep transformation tagline, self society's spirit. Roger, let me tell my guests who are listening a little bit about you. And this you will find up at the deep transformation website. Rogers day jobs include being a University of California professor, and that's at UC Irvine in psychiatry, philosophy, anthropology and religious studies as well as the writer and researchers who work his work has been received over 20 national and international awards. He is also a meditation student, teacher and researcher, a Tibetan Buddhist Lama, and was formerly a circus acrobat. I didn't know that. And a world record high diver and spectacularly unsuccessful standup comedian. Well, you've had a lot of different things that you've done in your career.

Roger Walsh
Roger, a lot of incarnations in this lifetime.

Greg Voisen
So it but it's a pleasure having you back on again to be with myself and the guests. We really did enjoy that last podcast and it's been way too long ago. But we're going to be speaking not about just the podcast show that he does. But a book that he wrote quite some time ago. We're actually saying this book was in 1999. But as I say here, the spirituality and the wisdom that comes from that it's timeless. So there is no you know, you don't have to worry about these books what year they were done, you can pick them up almost any year anytime and read them so we're gonna put a link to this book to Rogers book on Amazon because I've formulated my questions for Roger as that and the dialogue for this. You know, Roger, even though it is 1999 Long time ago that He wrote that. And I said, the good news for listeners is that the book is about ageless wisdom. And it never dates itself. None of the spiritual material usually does. Why did you choose to write the book? And what do you hope the reader is going to gain insight into a result of reading? And I think more importantly, practicing what you speak about to awaken the heart. There is so much I mean, it's very rich, the whole book.

Roger Walsh
Well, thank you very much, Greg. And there are two questions. Now why did I write up what am I hoping for, for readers, and the Caber write it out of my own direct spiritual quest I was, I was a hardcore materialist. I was a scientist and an MD, PhD, etc. I worship at the altar of science. And it when it came to California, it was a great shock, to gradually be exposed to alternative ways of thinking, to contemplative traditions to psychological growth work. And I dove very deeply into those and tried to make sense of them and found them very rich and very valuable. But then I became then I started to look at well, here are all these contemplative traditions, meditation, yoga, Mantra, recitation, etc. I'm doing um, they seem to be working, but how could they possibly be if they're relics of primitive thinking, as I assumed. And there was literally one moment as I was walking across the living room for when I realized that behind the conventional religious institutions with their myths, and their dogmas and their rituals, were much less well known esoteric, contemplative disciplines for training the heart and mind to cultivate the same qualities and virtues that the founders and saints and sages of each tradition have realized. And I realized there was a, we could almost call it a contemplative technology, they all became really fascinated, well, we are living in this extraordinary time, it's very, it's very easy for us to infer in the United States, and particularly for those of us in California to forget what a rare time this is, when we can, we have access for the first time in human history, to all the world's religions and spiritual traditions and philosophies. And to forget that for most of human history, if you studied another religion, or another meditative meditation practice, you could end up in a funeral pyre a crucifix. So, I became intrigued. Well, what do these have in common? And I kept asking myself, well, okay, what are the greatest minds in human history said, other qualities of heart and mind that we need to develop in order to live as fully unwell and beneficially as possible? And what do they say about how to do it. And over time, I've gradually began to see that see the different commonalities across cultures and traditions and wisdom traditions. And the first clue was given to me by Rand us, the great former Harvard professor who became rom Das, and was a pioneer for many of us in spirituality. And he said, well, all these traditions have in common, they have an ethical training, and they cultivate wisdom, and, and service. And it's no wisdom, wisdom, wisdom, ethics. Anyway, three things. And that kind of resonated for me. And then gradually over the years, I began to realize, well, actually there are more. For example, every contemplative tradition emphasizes the importance of emotional transformation. We have to relinquish anger, jealousy, fear, to make room for love and compassion and joy. And the power that he is attentional training the capacity to develop a stable, calm, clear mind. You need that in order to be able to do these practices. They emphasize perceptual clarity, seeing things as they really are disentangling ourselves from our delusions and illusions so we can really see clearly and they and they emphasize, emphasize the color, shifting our motivation, from more egocentric to world centric from being compelled and then controlled by our cravings and fears, to being free to move towards self actualization towards self transcendence, and finally towards selfless service. So great. Fell together. So that's the end of my

Greg Voisen
Wow, that is that is the essence of the book for certain. And you know, today as I was out, it's a we're we're taping this show on Good Friday. And I was asking my wife for About Good Friday, and we were talking about Jesus Christ. And then we were talking about the resurrection. And it was really about removing fear, because there wasn't, there is no death. And, you know, the message is really about that, you know, and I found it fascinating that you and I reconnect on a day where many Christians are thinking about the resurrection, the ability to become new again. And at that time, reincarnation, well talked about wasn't only you know, the state of the day, right. But yet all these other religions did have that. And you speak about two crucial terms. And we talked about this when we did the pre interview. I said, I'm not super religious, I'm spiritual. What, in your estimation, is the difference between spirituality and religion?

Roger Walsh
Okay, well, those are two, two of the most widely used terms in our worlds. And of course, different people have their own spin. But the way I think of it is that spirituality is concerned with direct experience and the practices which cultivate it. Religion is the term is more often associated with the organization's and beliefs, and general practices that flow out of an individual or groups experience and become crystallized into its institutional forms, and discipline. So that's the way I differentiate them.

Greg Voisen
And that's good, because, you know, some people, you hear them say, I'm religious, you'll hear other people say, I'm spiritual. And I think, you know, your definition helps to see the outward expression, versus when I think of religion. I've said this many times, I think it was Ken Wilber that was on the show. And he wrote a book about religion, that kind of the fall of religion. And this has been a while ago. But the statement I've made many times, is religions have done more to divide society and individuals than they have to unite. This is a great voice and comment. But spirituality has done more to bring people together, in, in my humble opinion, because there's been so much strife and so much fighting from a religious standpoint. And I think that's a challenge. You want to comment on that? Because to me, I know it's not one of our questions, and it doesn't have to be but the reality is, is that fundamentally, to me, it just seems so challenging. That you're, you're, whether it's Judaism, or Mormonism, or Catholicism, or whatever ism it is, it has been a challenge to control people to almost control them and to control their minds. And I don't mean that negatively. I think there's a lot that comes out of that. But I'd love to get your take on it. Because look, you're somebody who has been studying this most of your life.

Roger Walsh
Well as a few. All right, I'll take I'll take a stab. Well, I think you're pointing towards something very important, tragically important break. And if we go back to the distinction between spirituality and religion is spirituality, emphasizing direct experience, religion, emphasizing interpretation and dogma, institutionalization. And particularly belief, then I think what you're saying becomes understandable. People don't, don't fight so much over their direct experience. It's always the interpretations that become the source of source of, of argumentation. And with religions, we have very set beliefs, and not just any beliefs, they are the big picture beliefs, our understanding of the cosmos and God and our human nature and how we relate to the universe and God etc. So these are what are called our worldviews our biggest encompassing understanding of ourselves in the universe and, and everything that is, and when, when you when, so our very identity is grounded in and in some ways determined by that kind of will our worldviews and when you are in that belief system, and the thing that's really important to know is When you don't share someone's belief system, you tend to weaken it. And since everyone identifies with their belief system that's literally experienced as a death threat. And so people have go to war, and more people have perhaps, killed and died over, for example, the phrase, no one comes to the Father, but by Me, then no state will in human history, right. And yet here was a man clearly devoted to love and compassion.

Greg Voisen
Totally. And I think that's a good summation of that. And it is, as they asked somebody a Ukrainian the other day, on a talk show, forget him. But they were asking, they were talking to some Ukrainians. And the man said, He's the antichrist that Putin is the Antichrist. You know, Hitler was the Antichrist. When you look at love and compassion, you're just wondering where it is, and it doesn't exist. And that is just my commentary as well again, but I would I would agree with the comments made. You know, you mentioned that the book, essential spirituality is a result of 23 years of research in the practice of the world spiritual disciplines. But before then, you, Roger Walsh, were agnostic, you had no belief, and in the value or validation of religion of any kind, what are the seven perennial practices that you really speak about? And want people to understand as a result of reading this book? Because they think they're, they're like the foundation? They're there fundamental?

Roger Walsh
Yeah. Greg, and, and as you asked in the previous question, as I pointed towards this, these were the practices that I found that the great sages across cultures, and, and traditions and centuries AD emphasized as the as the most important practices we can do. And so again, a foundational is a foundation in ethics, that, that we cannot settle our minds and develop love and compassion and clarity and wisdom. If our minds are filled with hatred and jealousy, and we're lying and stealing from people. So ethical living is foundational. Then there's a shift in motivation, really releasing egocentric motivation and growing in motivation, which is more generous, which is more self actualizing, self transcending, less compulsively driven, and there's emotional transformation, reducing anger, fear, jealousy, cultivating love, compassion, joy, etc. And then there's perceptual clarification, really kind of looking, developing a sensitivity of perception, such as advanced meditators have been found to do with research, seeing very sensitive, increasingly sensitively and clearly. Then there's the cultivation of wisdom, seeing deeply into life, and seeing how best to respond to life. And finally, there's the there's the practice of selfless service, the recognition that we practice, not for ourselves alone, but in order to become more effective instruments of service services, both a means to awakening and an expression.

Greg Voisen
Well, you rattle those off pretty quick. And I think my listeners will get it. But the most important thing is, is that we'll put a link for the book, because he does have a list of them in the book. And then he goes through and articulates them further. And I think that that's that these are, where, where you were coming from with each one of those and how you, boom, boom, boom, boom, went right down the list. It's really important, because those are, those are practices. In other words, it's a way that we can enrich and enrich our lives, become more loving, become more compassionate, become more understanding. Now, you talked about motivation. You also talked about cravings in the book. And somebody texted me and this is an off the wall, a very interesting article this morning. And it's a gal that's been on my show, April rent rhynie, who lost both of her parents in a car accident at the age of 20. And she wrote a really interesting book called Flux, the eight superpowers to thrive in constant change. And the article, Roger was about running from one self that end today. Is world we have this sense that we're, we're running we're always on now and that kind of contemplative practices, Buddhist practices, Eastern philosophy, it's about slowing down and, and meditating and being more intentional and being more mindful. If you were to comment about the current state of our world as you see it, Roger Walsh sees it from your perspective, what advice might you give people who find themselves running from themselves?

Roger Walsh
Yeah, gosh, there's so much in what you said Greg and, and the running both from ourselves and woods, the toys and trinkets that the world offers Correct? Materialism. Yeah. So there's both running from and are running towards and both of them are crucially important and have a can easily have a compulsive quality. So we run from that which were unwilling to look at. Yet it's true, it's critically important to know to finally important things about the way the mind works. One is, whatever you're unwilling to experience in yourself, whatever you're unwilling to experience in the mind, sticks around until you are willing to experience it. First Principle. Second one, whatever you're unwilling to experience runs your life. Now, those are two very, very powerful things. So if we running, running and keeping very busy and tranquilizing ourselves with trivia, in order to avoid facing our inner experience, we are we are going to be fleeing that indefinitely, because it will stay there until we look at it. But the good news is that when we start to start to open to our experience, and that within us which we have feared, we find that awareness in and of itself is curative. But when our emotional difficulties, our traumas, our intense emotions, the things we're fearful and shameful about when they're brought into the healing light of awareness, T release and unravel. And their energy becomes freely available to us. So they offer us gifts, even as after we've been willing to look at. So that's one thing I would say about

Greg Voisen
one of those is, you know, when you talk about cravings, and you spoke with me in the pre interview, that some research you were doing that it again, in the eastern philosophy, it's the attachment to the attachment to something we all know, I mean, logically, we're not taking any of our possessions with us. You know, I mean, a lot of people probably want to be buried with their Tesla.

But it didn't get to happen. So speak with, speak with us, if

Greg Voisen
You would, about the non attachment and how that can help people overcome this challenge.

Roger Walsh
Yeah, and, of course, you mentioned Eastern philosophies and this idea of the importance of attachment or craving as most succinctly articulated in Buddhism, Buddhism, where it's the second of the four noble truths, the first noble truth being the, you know, in an Anon, like any unenlightened life, there is necessarily suffering. And the second noble truth gives a diagnosis, the cause of that suffering is craving. And the third noble truth gives the treat it gives the treatment or antidote, it's like the way out of suffering to relief. So relief suffering is to release craving. And the fourth Noble Truth is a recipe for how to do that eight ways of doing that. And so, the, the idea is that craving is, and its mirror image, which is aversion or fear or anger, craving tries to grasp something, it says, I must have this in order to be happy. It's mirror image Version says, I must not have that in order to be happy. And of course, there can be no peace and equanimity as long as we're slave to those tweets, those tweeting drives. So, the, the idea behind many traditions, understanding of craving is that this is a very powerful, dynamic, built into our human nature. And yet it is possible to release and grow beyond it and come to a life of, of equity, more group far greater peace and equanimity. Ready, bye gradually unraveling this and the unraveling exercises can be, for example craving, simply to be aware of it to notice how we feel. And we notice we actually don't feel so good when we're craving. So just that recognition are willing to actually experience it. This gets back to your previous point, Craig, about fleeing from ourselves, one of the things we flee from is directly experiencing what it's like to crave. As long as we don't directly experience it, we don't realize how destructive it isn't gonna keep feeding it. So that's just one, beginning weigh in.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, I told you that I had read the introduction to a book, on psychedelics that you had written. And you’ve obviously done a lot of research. And, you know, one of the things I look at is the subconscious mind and the conscious mind. And this is an open ended question for you. I currently see a gentleman by the name of Dr. Steve Berman, be er, ma n. And Steve was an emergency room doctor for 20 years, but uses hypnosis to help his patients overcome the challenges that they're dealing with in the emergency room, and if they're going under surgery. So I've been hypnotized many times by Steve, and to actually realize how strong the subconscious mind is. Now, there's many ways to get at this but because this mammalian brain of ours always wants to default back to certain ways in which we do it. I'm, I'm asking you this question and I know this roundabout, but between all these practices meditation and yoga, and I T P, which George Leonard used and psychedelics, and all of this with the intent being of everything we talk at, to slow down, observe and release something that we constantly keep defaulting back to a craving, okay, whatever that might be. Whether we have a sexual Craver, gambling addiction or a spending addiction, whatever it might be, what would you say? And what have you found in all the research you've done? That seems to have or could have a sustainable effect on enhancing unhinging that what seems to be just such a strong, powerful kind of way in which we work?

Roger Walsh
Yeah, well, yes, let's acknowledge first off that the craving is incredibly powerful, and it's part of our survival. Machinery, and it's possible to attenuate it and even for advanced people to release it. You know, you're pointing to let me generalize the question, Greg, because you pointed out something very important, what are what are the kind of most strategic practices we can do for working with a variety of issues, and in others, I spent a lot of years studying and reflecting and researching and before I wrote that book, essential spirituality, the seven central practices. And as I looked across the world's contemplative traditions, and what the world's wisest people have said, about how to come to the fullness of our potential as human beings. The thing that surprised me most was that every single tradition said that for every single one of these seven qualities and virtues of heart and mind, they all said, if you want to develop these qualities, hang out with people who have every one of them agreed that the power of relationship and community was so powerful, that if we hung out with people who have these virtues with people who are loving, who are generous, or ethical, who are not driven by craving, we pick these up by osmosis because and we know this now from contemporary neuroscience, says there's a whole field of so called social neuroscience. We are built neurologically like tuning forks, we resonate with one another. And not only not only ways of being and habits, but also states of mind states of consciousness are transmitted. And wisdom traditions have known this for millennia. They talk about the power of transmission from a teacher. It's not just teachers, it's a friend, it's our relatives, it's the people we hang out with. There's a saying, now in the contemporary research community, watch out who you hang out with, because you become like them and look like them. We even look begin to look like the people we hang out with. Because if our friends cousin day, in some ways, we probably will. And if we hang out with people who are happy, our faces, muscles will grow. So as we tend to smile more, I mean, the power of community and relationship is extraordinarily powerful in these contemplative traditions, and the sages recognized the hundreds and 1000s of years ago, and so forth.

Greg Voisen
They're going to interrupt but you just came back from a month long meditation retreat in community. And, you know, COVID, has done much to disrupt the ability to have us do these things. But I remember when I was with Joel and Michelle Levy on the orcas islands, meditating that the community that was formed was so strong, and the elixir that gets created as a result of the practices. Is, is a I mean, if you want to talk about a craving, it's a it's a huge craving, but a craving for peace, love, tranquility, and so on. And it is it because once you get there, it's like, you can't have enough. And then when you come back, in my case to the mainland on the boat, and you see what's happening, you go, oh, my God, I live in this. You know, you're saying, well, which is the real world, right? It's kind of like, people say, well, you're back in the real world. And they go, well, no, maybe the orcas islands in the meditation retreat was the real world. But if you talk to anybody that goes on a meditation retreat, afterwards, the kind of the shock of just coming back out of it, again, is interesting. Any comment on that? Because I've talked to so many people that have had the same experience, they say, oh, my gosh, that was wonderful for a week or two weeks, or a month or whatever. And then I'm back here again. And I see the rat and the hamster wheel.

Roger Walsh
Well, I think you said it beautifully. Greg, we become immersed in our law in our lives. We've become hypnotized, by the by the conventional world. And it's understanding we become hit by everything from advertising to the news. And we become habituated, we just assume this is the way it is. We go into a retreat. We detox effectively, psychological spiritual detox, we come back we realize, Oh, my goodness, this is what I and we have been lost into. And so we are able to see it with fresh, more perceptive, clearer, quieter, calmer eyes.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. Well, your perception certainly changes. And at one point in the book, you said, that's the best thing that could happen is your awareness and perception about it changes. And you said, you state that to know happiness and bliss, and we need to change our motivations. And always question for you about the word motivation, versus inspiration. You know, I've had many debates with people about that extrinsic intrinsic, will, maybe we can talk about that here. This means reducing cravings for those things that we do not bring true, or do not bring true happiness, and redirecting desires. To those that do. That's really key if I was going to underline anything, redirecting to those that do. That's easier said than done. What practices can help us change those motives in your estimation, because this is a habitual habit. We've got to change a habit, we've got to change, almost like a reflex. And reflex is just like, boop. But you know, it's like Pavlov's dog ring the bell thing. Here we go.

Roger Walsh
Yeah, I'm so glad you've emphasized several times, Greg, that these are all practices. They're not something for the most part, we just make a decision about although making decision can be very important and foundational for further change. But yes, these are practices. So for redirecting motivation. There's a series and first, the first thing comes with, with exposure to different ideas about what really matters in life, because we aren't drawn to what really matters. And so the first step is just knowing there are paths, other possibilities to see people dedicating their lives to, for example, learning and growth and becoming clear and waking up and serving. So first off being exposed to different ideas. Second, coming back to that theme again, hanging out with people who have those have those different motives? Third, exactly what you mentioned, beginning to turn attention in and look for our own inspiration, not what other people tell us, not what the advertisers tell us, we should design. But what really calls us what inspires us what energizes, empowers, and directs us. So we come then to respond to our own calling. And that's a very, very crucial shift.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, that is a crucial shift. And we you have a part in the book that you speak about, you know, when you're not following that, you can have a lot of anxiety and you can have a lot of anger. And you can have a lot of frustration. And in your chapter on the gift of love, you speak that emotions rule our lives that the feelings we repeatedly invite into our minds eventually seduce and dominate our minds. You didn't state that one emotion has long been praised as supreme, by the great religions. And that is love. What do you recommend to access love in our lives? And does this start with a big dose of self love?

Roger Walsh
Yeah, two important questions, then how to cultivate love, and sec. Second is start with self love and, and let's just step back for a moment to talk about the very nature of love because our culture's understanding of love is very constricted and limited. And it really helps. The first step is to have a larger vision of possibility of what life can be, for the most part of culture is promulgated the Hollywood myth that love can happen if you with the right person and looks the right way or says the right things, then you can feel love. So it kind of holds our culture holds our viewers love that kind of, you can have under the right circumstances with the right person, and it kind of sends on you're kind of like an attack of IP. And you controlled by it, and you can't stop thinking about the person who breakout and sweats you can't sleep. That's not that's a description of heroin withdrawal. This is a description of addiction, not a pure, of, of have, what the Christians would call a god pay the overflowing love for all creation, all people. So first off, we need to recognize there are different kinds of love. There's a love which is based in craving, which is what our culture assumes a little love can be, there's love, which can be is the love we see between, for example, relatives or parents, for children. That's a very generous giving love. There's a love between romantic partners, which at its best can be the flowing of Eros, not grasping after, and possessing, but rather overflowing Eros, that is not just not only sexual, certainly sexual, but more than that, inspiring, invigorating for life. And finally, there's what the Christians called a god pay or unconditional love, which is a love that knows no boundaries or limitations encompasses all people and even all life. So having that vision is a first step. And then there are individual practices we can work with which we could go into if you'd like.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think that you know, what's important here for I would think for my listeners, I feel like I know him a little better. The opposite of love is fear. And much has been written about fear and anger and the long term effects to our emotions and our physical health. You’ve outlined 11 exercises in chapter 12 to reduce fear and anger, what are some of those exercises, not all of them because we don't have time, and that can help our listeners find themselves and being less fearful and less angry. You know, because I my sense is, you know, all you got to do is drive down the road anymore and get cut off one more time. And you can see that, you know, there's a lot of frustration and anger or someone that can't wait in line for you know, the next checkout person. I There are times I sense myself that way and I'm like, why can't I stay in this peaceful state and just wait you know, I get it because we are enticed about what's the next thing that we have to do? And so when to do is gets big. It starts to possess us and it's really not about

Roger Walsh
Yeah, exactly. And, again, we could go down many roads here, Greg, you touched on luck. But if we think of, for example, fear. Fear is, you know, it's an emotion which runs our lives. To varying extents, it's one of the things that feelings are most uncomfortable, we tend to avoid. And yet, one of the things that, again, is important to know is when we avoid being or when we avoid directly experiencing our fear, it remains there and it tends to grow and attends to run our lives. So one of the things that really valuable know about fear is if we turn attention to it actually explored, what does this actually feel like? We find that as we explored it, but through the healing power of awareness, it begins to diminish and release. And in fact, one of the standard psychotherapeutic treatments for fear is simply to have people remain in a situation that's fearful for them for a period of several minutes, because that's usually what happens. As soon as we possibly experience fear, we try to get out of that situation. But if we stay there, if we end if we just experience the fear, that only takes literally a couple of minutes for us to realize, oh, it's beginning to decrease, if we don't run from it, if we run from it, we exacerbate it. If we stay with a bit diminishes, that's a crucial life lesson.

Greg Voisen
That is, that is really great wisdom. You know, I know, one of the practices is like a tonglen meditation where you're doing healing work for the rest of the world. And you know, when I've done that, I can really feel it in your body feels it. And then to breathe it back out again. I think that that's, I think I'm kind of wrapping this up, Roger, what I'd like you to do, because there's the book, which we're going to put a link to. And there's a podcast, which Roger has deep transformation, which we're going to put a link to. But I'd like to wrap this up with, you know, your essentials of spirituality will certainly awaken the heart of all readers that commit to your practices. And I'm going to underscore, commit to the practices. This isn't a book you just read. This is a book you contemplate this is a book that you practice you work on, there's work you have to do, if you were to leave the listeners with three takeaways, that they could really make an impact. Now, you know, as rom das says, I have this. Here, I'll show you, I also have a clock. And I have a now clock, which has no hands on it. It's just on the wall and it has a an ohm signal that goes back and forth. What would they be? And why do you believe they're so important to changing their lives, just three really great takeaways that they can apply?

Roger Walsh
Okay, well, I would again, go back to something we talked about before, because it's so important, so many sages agreed with this. Be careful who you who you choose to hang out with. Choose your friends and companions wisely, and make and ideally, see if they embody the qualities you would like to have and strengthen yourself. That's number one, an analogy of that, be very careful about what you put into your mind, for example, with television, because what we put into our minds is even more important than what we put into our bodies. Second principle, and there are going to be two related principle here ethics. Ethics is crucial, the psychological and spiritual well being and growth. And in our culture, we tend to tend to think of ethics as kind of a sacrifice or Okay, I'll do what I should do. What we don't appreciate, is an ethics is living ethically, is a way of enhancing our well being and the well being of everyone we interact with. And the third is generosity and service. Our culture tends to think of generosity and service as self sacrifice. It's not its enlightened self interest, when we really begin to experience what it's like to give. We realize that we when we give to others, we cultivate feelings such as generosity and joy and love, and they grow in us. And so generosity is not self sacrifice. It's enlightened self interest. Well,

Greg Voisen
Thank you for giving me and our listeners, a wonderful 4550 minute talk and in an opportunity to glean some of your practices out of essential spirituality, again, we've been on with Roger Walsh from Mill Valley, California. And you're going to want to go to his podcast show. And we will put a link to that podcast show, but it's called deep transformation podcasts. Roger, Namaste to you. Thank you for being on. Thank you for spending some time with me.

Roger Walsh
Greg, thank you very much for this opportunity. And thank you for all you do for all of us.

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If you are looking for a comprehensive guide to wellness then you might want to check out “Inner Wealth: How Wellness Heals, Nurtures, and Optimizes Ultra-Successful People” by author Julie Wald.  In my recent interview with Julie, we speak about framework for integrating the most impactful wellness practices into your life in a way that feels natural and doable for your busy schedule.

Julie is all you need to motivate, encourage, guide and support you on your wellness journey.  If you want to learn more about the practices of meditation please click here to be directed to Julies’s website.  Enjoy this great interview with author Julie Wald.

Thanks for listening!

THE BOOK

With Inner Wealth, that’s what Julie Wald is giving you: a framework for integrating the most impactful wellness practices into your life in a way that feels natural and doable for your busy schedule. Built around the four pillars of wellness—movement, stillness, touch, and nourishment—this book will inspire and enable you to create a self-care plan that meets your needs. This is not a formula or a prescription; it’s a recipe, and you can decide how much of each ingredient you want to add to live a happy, healthy life that is reflective of who you are.

THE AUTHOR

A wellness practitioner for over 25 years Julie Wald, is the Founder, CEO and Chief Wellness Officer at Namaste Wellness. Julie is also the bestselling author of Inner Wealth: How Wellness Heals, Nurtures and Optimizes Ultra-Successful People, released in March of 2020. She holds a master’s degree in Social Work from New York University and began her career in 1995 as a clinical social worker treating adults, children and adolescents in mental health and healthcare settings. In the process of building her impressive mental health practice, Julie also pursued her personal wellness objectives and in doing so became a Certified Yoga Instructor, Meditation Teacher, Thai Bodyworker and Reiki Master. ​

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from New York is Julie Wald. And Julie has a new book out called Inner Wealth. And the subtitle is How Wellness Heals, Nurtures and Pptimizes Ultra Successful People. Well, good day to you. How are you doing? They're in New York, Julie. And this was a very interesting book. Obviously, you profiling a lot of your clients and their challenges, and how you approached the treatment with them. And then putting this book together, I found it fundamentally very instrumental and actually giving me some great advice as well. So I'm really interested to get into this interview and talk about it further. So you're doing great.

Julie Wald
I am doing well. It's so great to be here, Greg. And thank you for those kind words about the book and really excited to dig into this conversation.

Greg Voisen
Well, great, great. Now, I'm going to tell the listeners that from your website, and for those who are out there listening and you want to know more about Julie, go to Julie Wald and it's www Namaste wellness.com that's one place. You can also find her at Julie Wald wellness.com. That's an another place and she's a wellness practitioner for over 25 years. And the founder and the chief wellness officer at namaste wellness. Julie is also the bestselling author of this book, inner wealth, how wellness heals, nurtures and optimizes ultra-successful people, which was released in March of 2020. She holds a master's degree in social work from New York University and began her career in 95. As a clinical social worker treating adults’ children and adolescents in mental health and healthcare settings. In the process of building are impressive mental health pressing practice, Julie also pursued her personal wellness objectives and in doing so, became a certified yoga instructor, meditation teacher, Thai body worker and Reiki master. So she is well qualified to speak with us about what we're going to be talking about. And, Julie, if you would tell our listeners a little about yourself, I gave him you know, there's, there's more behind your story than just what was on that bio about how you got, where you are. And why this journey toward writing this book, which profiles so many of your clients, their ailments, their stresses their conditions, and at the same time, incorporates into it, how you would approach that with a client, which is I think, is a great way for people to learn.

Julie Wald
Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you so much. So, so yes, my journey has been has been a really interesting one. And, you know, I have had the opportunity to work with some really extraordinary human beings and so many different ways throughout the course of of my career and have learned really, both from my own experiences and my own journey, as well as the work that I've done with with these people. At the at the very beginning of my career when I was a clinical social worker, before I really became so deeply embedded in the wellness and self-care space, I really actually worked with with some of the most disenfranchised people in the country, in New York City. And I learned a lot about the human condition there. I also learned a lot about myself, and some of the things that were most challenging for me, in that chapter of my career, and quite frankly, was handling a lot of my own stress, which is what led me to become so deeply immersed in the World of Wellness, how do I take care of myself? How do I practice self-help, um, you know, as I am in this helping profession, at the time, I was working with everything from, you know, teenagers who were who were suicidal to adults who are coping with, you know, issues of trauma and addiction and poverty. And, you know, it was a lot to hold. And I had to figure out how to get strong enough and have my own resilience toolkit to manage, manage showing up as a professional and moving the needle forward each and every day. And that's when I really dove so deeply into meditation practice and yoga practice and understanding the value of all of these different types of modalities and how they could support my own mental health and well being I'm in that in that helping profession as my, as my own dad used to say, when I was a kid, it's not the weight of the pack on your back, but the strength of the back that carries the pack. And so it was sort of like, my instinct at that point was not to run away from the challenges that I was facing, but to figure out how to get stronger. Interestingly, that led me to a place where I became deeply interested in involved in in these different more Eastern modalities and became trained and traveled the world and develop these sort of secondary specialties to my work as a clinical social worker. And at that point, I developed a bit of a side hustle, I was living in New York City, and I, you know, started working with some of the most high performing professionals in the world, this was just post 911. So this goes way back. And it was, you know, a time when particularly people in finance, but people certainly all over New York, and all over the country were, we're in a bit of crisis after the trauma of this event. And there was an opening, there was a window opened, where people became more open to some of these integrative practices to make their own back stronger, just like I had to make my back stronger during those challenging times. And again, that's when I started working with some high performers, and learning what, what their challenges were and supporting them much as I had supported myself, in figuring out how to cultivate well-being build resilience, find greater balance in their lives.

Greg Voisen
When you talk about that juxtaposition of working with just impoverished people and people with challenges, and the energy that you have to hold, but at the same time, the energy that somebody who is on the opposite side of the coin brings into the room, who's a high producer, maximum stress, all the kinds of things that you've profiled by a lot of people that they came to you trying to find in inner way trying to find a more peaceful way. And I think with that, I think self-care is one of the biggest areas in at least it's one you address. And I think it's important. Because in both cases, whether it's the very wealthy who are stressed, or the people who are a little more impoverished, are having mental health issues, are dealing with self-care. And it begins with the step into power, cultivating compassion relationship with others, and make the rules for our own life, right? Because a lot of times, people are letting outsiders control them. They're trying to look better in somebody else's eyes. It isn't exactly what maybe they want. But it's something that somebody else has wanted in their subconscious. They haven't figured out how to live it. How would you advise our listeners about beginning with self-care? And when they could, like, just be enough for themselves? And say, It's okay. Because this is a huge challenge in our society today.

Julie Wald
Absolutely, you know, I think first and foremost, it's about taking some inventory, being conscious of where we are with regard to our self-care, and where some of our areas are opportunities for improvement. And we like to use or I like to use what we call at my company, which, you know, for 25 years, we were namaste wellness, actually, just literally, super recently since our last conversation we've changed our name to Golden, but that's for another conversation. All the URLs that you mentioned at the beginning still lead you to all the right places. But what we do at Golden is looking at the four pillars, which are movement, stillness, connection, and nourishment. These are the basic fundamentals that help human beings thrive and believe it or not, you know, so often people think that they're taking care of themselves because they're going on their peloton for an hour a day, which is wonderful, or, you know, because they're eating tons of kale and avocados or whatever else they're eating, you know, however, there's blind spots, either the connection in their life is less than fulfilling or they aren't finding enough time to slow down to restore to recover. That's their stillness. And what we know is that, you know, if you've ever taken care of a baby, you know that A baby needs plenty of tummy time, that's their movement, they need plenty of sleep, that's their stillness, they need to be held skin to skin they need to be taught to, that's their connection. And they need to be nourished with healthy whole foods. And if all of those things are happening, barring any other major developmental or physical illnesses or delays, the baby will thrive. And us as grown-ups are really just big babies. And so often, we think we can get away with not sleeping or not eating a certain way or, you know, filling up on junk food connection, like just social media type of connection, that we don't realize why we're so cranky, just like a baby would be angry, I then angry.

Greg Voisen
It's just the nurturing of our own soul. And I think frequently, you know, the ego, and, you know, the subconscious and conscious mind, have to learn to live in alignment. And the challenge there is one is there to protect us and the other is there to help us have what we want in life. And I think that's always a challenge. And you know, you told a great story about one of your clients, Michael Copeland, who was realizing that he was not at Lambertus age, I think he was in his 50s. And yet, here's this guy that was doing marathons triathlons, you know, he was very active. And he wanted to have more fun as well, because it's one thing, it's, this is what we're talking about here. It's one thing to be great physically fit, get on your peloton, do what you're going to do. But are you having fun doing what you're doing? And so you brought to him other ways to move? Obviously Yoga, you know, you we can get into a lot of these things. But how did you help Michael realize his optimal wife, and do embrace other ways of being? Okay with Michael, instead of just kind of, you know, beating himself up physically?

Julie Wald
Yeah, that's a great, great question. And, you know, I think one of the things you touched on just early in that question was, was sort of access to joy, right, that, that this concept of people checking a lot of boxes, and, you know, their nervous systems being used to kind of operating in a certain way, where, you know, oftentimes it's doo doo, doo, doo, doo, go, go, go, go go achieve, achieve, achieve. And, you know, it's, it's checking things off the list, it's kind of, you know, staying on that same exact track that they've been on for many, many, many, many years. And so often, when I work with people like Michael and other clients, even just right now, it's this question comes up is that, you know, where what is really happiness? What is what is joy, actually, how, you know, in these are, these are some people that if you look at their lives from the outside, and you think, wow, they've really got it all going on there, you know, they're there, they must be the happiest person in the world based on what they've achieved and what they have and how they look. And what you realize is, is that, you know, that ability to access joy comes from a lot of different places, but one of those places is actually sort of learning to recognize some of the patterns that are on autopilot and being willing to put ourselves in new situations to develop a curiosity about, you know, how would it feel if I actually skipped a day of running this week and did something slower like yoga or breathing instead or, you know, decided that you know, I was going to I was going to, to basically give myself permission to try things a different way and see what the ripple effect might be of that. But in order to even get there, I think it's first about supporting people in gaining the awareness around the autopilot nature of how they're operating and where that tunnel vision or those are those blinders are happening, and really limiting their access to, to new experiences to experience a fuller holer expression of themselves.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, they just need to know that it's accessible. And you know, I think once they try it, they find so much more peace in it. So I'm just going to say, you know, like yoga or just walking, walking in the woods, you know, or walking along the beach or doing things like that, because you talked about reflection, you know, and Julian mentioned this question because I had the pleasure and honor to sit in George Leonard's living room and do an interview with him. And he and Michael Murphy are the founders of epsilon. And along with Michael Murphy, in Big Sur, George founded something called i t p, which stands for integral transformative practice. And you may or may not have heard of this, maybe you have. But it was a practice of Aikido yoga, movement, meditation, and meditation. Right. And I was like, I attended a class. And they were only 4550 minutes, I think it was, but it was the combination of the movement of the body, the yoga, the meditation, which really shifted my stance, and it seems to me a few, you have a similar kind of practice for clients? And could you comment on the benefits of putting all of these practices kind of together? whatever they, whatever they are, that you do? Because I noticed from the book, that it is this, I want to call smarters BORG of opportunities, right? Maybe, maybe that's a bad way to put it. But that's the way it seems to me.

Julie Wald
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think, um, but I think it's really and I think the reason it's a swarm sport is because it's about meeting people where they are, and I don't actually believe in sort of a one size fits all formula for wellbeing, I think different expressions of the practice of different of a, basically a conscious, breath based movement practice, can resonate with different people at different times for different reasons. And so whether that, as you mentioned, is, you know, a really rigorous yoga asana practice, a physical practice, or whether that's a really quiet, still gentle, you know, Yin based or restorative practice, depending on where somebody's energy is out of alignment, it will really impact kind of what is going to be the best prescription yoga wise, for example, for them, right? Not one kind of yoga is best for all people, it really depends on what they need to cultivate, do they need to, you know, find more flexibility? And is that the emphasis on a physical level? Do they need to, you know, find more quiet, more stillness? And is that is that really where we need to prioritize, you know, the fruits of the practice. Of course, you know, breathing and mindfulness are sort of integrative aspects of yoga. And, again, kind of thinking about the four pillars, one of the amazing things about a yoga based practice is that it brings together almost all of the pillars, right, so you have movement, you have nourishment, which the breath in and of itself is the most sort of nourishing ingredient. It's what we need to nourish ourselves to stay alive, you have connection, because you're really connecting with yourself, and you have stillness because it's a focused, meditative practice. And so, you know, one of the things I love so much about practices that kind of fall into that general category is that they actually encompass all four pillars. And that's, that's a powerful thing. One other just quick thing I want to mention is that, you know, back to the beginning of our conversation, when I was talking about these, you know, disenfranchised New Yorkers who are struggling, and then working with these kind of ultra successful people. I was doing that at the same time. And one was more of a side hustle at the time. And one was kind of my main, my main job. And one of the things that I noticed, going back to that idea of the human condition is that actually, despite kind of the fancy apartments, or the clothes that people were wearing, their struggles were the same. And in many cases, there are solutions were also the same. And these prescriptive formulas like the one that ones that we're talking about, were beautiful fitting practices, regardless of who that person was in sort of that whole social stratosphere.
Greg Voisen
.It's interesting that you say that because, you know, from both sides of the spectrum, you saw similarities. And, you know, people out there might not think that and I and you had a story in the book, which I thought was really Interesting, you're working with an entrepreneur. His name was Joshua Gould. And who was struggling enormously with unplugging. And you said, unplugging. And this story is not uncommon in this always on world that we're living in today. It I see it, it's a dis ease. You know, it really is, what prescription would you give to our listeners like Joshua, who are listening right now, to unwind and reduce the stressors, because many people are so unconscious, of what's creating it, it just builds up during the day. And before they know it, they're angry at something or they're frustrated, or another email comes in, that they've got to deal with. It's not something they want to do, or they've got to go to a meeting or whatever it might be. Julie, it is there. So I'd love to see what your prescription might be for all of those listeners, not just Josh.

Julie Wald
Yes, well, I'm glad you mentioned unplugging. Because I think that finding time to disconnect from our digital lives is an incredibly important variable when it comes to self care. And when it comes to managing stress. And I think that's much easier said than done, because these devices are highly, highly addictive. And, you know, I don't think I think it's important that we actually don't blame ourselves for how hooked in we are, because they're literally designed to kind of capture our brains in this way. And, and, but what I do think is important is finding ways to be intentional, whether it's deciding to plug the phone in, you know, during dinner time, and afterwards, to create an evening that is, is less plugged into technology, but But that's really just the first step. It's, it's, um, then replacing that technology with other activities, kind of pulling from the four pillars, whether it's taking an evening walk with someone that we care about, or even something as simple as watching an amazing movie can be very nourishing can be very fulfilling. And so. But that constant interaction digitally, is very, very agitating to the stressed out mind to the already stressed out mind. And if we can give ourselves some recovery time, if we can give ourselves some downtime, then we're really able to reset, it's the other half of all of the doing of all of the talking and all of the engaging, is that spaciousness is that quiet time, whatever that looks like, for, for that person for you. It's really where can you find moments to, to refill your tank, and most likely those opportunities will come when you close your laptop, put down your phone, and do something that involves movement. True stillness, which is things like reading a book, scrolling, scrolling Instagram, from bed is not stillness, right? That's a very sort of activated place to be in the mind, it's actually really agitated. And so you know, reading an old fashioned book, taking a walk, all of these things can even taking a walk can beat stillness. So you know, in some ways,

Greg Voisen
well, I think frequently, we are doing beings, and we're doing less being than we are doing. And unfortunately, that is the disease because it has proliferate peripheral ated people's lives. And they don't even realize it. You know, because if you were to look today, at almost maybe anybody's phone, the number of apps that are on the phone, the actual numbers of apps that focus on to do list, you know, and I'm not going to name them, but there's hundreds of them. And it's not that we are going to eliminate that in our life. We're going to try and block time for that and block time for other things. And I think that's a really important thing to say, Hey, I know what I need to be productive, and I know when I can unplug. And I think for any busy executive who's really good at what they're doing, they're either doing time blocking, and they're saying, Hey, I'm taking the time to do this, and then I'm taking time for my yoga, and they're fitting it in the day, you know, and in your chat. You're on reflection, you speak about awareness of patterns. And you mentioned that earlier as well. And I think that's really important. Because if people realize there was a camera following them every day for 24 hours, the question I might have is do when we replayed it, would you like what you saw? Would you like what the camera captured, the things you did during the day. And these patterns, they create stress in our lives, and they can be done to shift our body's response, or I say what can be done to shift the body's response by using breathwork and slow mindful yoga to gain more balance, and why in your estimation is breathing so important to become aware, to shift to shift our awareness breathing, to shift our awareness?

Julie Wald
Absolutely. Breathing just forces us to slow down to land in the moment to land in our body to kind of get out of that autopilot mode, and turn the gaze in for just a moment and feel and experience where we are in time and space and emotion in any given any given moment. And, and I think that, that's when we have that moment of pause before we then continue on that, you know, hamster wheel of whatever it is that we are doing, or reacting to or overdoing. I think that that it's, it's that it's the other half, quite frankly, of all of the doing is the stopping and the breathing and the processing. And it's not, it's not that doing is bad. In fact, doing is great. We need to do things that's part of why, you know, we're put on this planet, but there is such thing as too much of a good thing. And well, let's

Greg Voisen
face it, very few of us are going to go to India and become a yogi and go into a cave and sit there for years and meditate. I'm talking years, many of them. That's fraught and we're probably most of us not going to end up in an ashram. And we might go for a while, but we're not going to spend a lot of time. So we have to create our own ashrams, you know, in our own homes. And I think that's what you do really well, your wellness program, and golden in what you're teaching pieces and people is, you know, you have had some phenomenal teachers along the way. You know, you work with Jon Kabat Zinn and Sharon Salzberg What I would like for you to do though, is speak with us about the benefits of gratitude and journaling. And why someone listening who, you know, wants to start why somebody listening would want to start a regular practice of these two, what you refer to in the book, healthy exercises, to benefit them emotionally and mentally. I know a lot of people say, Well, I'm going to do it, they get the journal, and then none of the pages ever get filled. And I'm as much culprit on that one, myself. Right. I do have a gratitude practice. But it's, it's more of a movement practice before I get out of bed. It's what I it's what I do and what I say to myself, and what my subconscious is being reprogrammed to every day. But I've been horrible about the journal entries. So what would you tell people about just journaling? And gratitude practice?

Julie Wald
Absolutely. First of all, you know, these are really, really, really fundamental, powerful practices, I will again reiterate that it's not a one size fits all. And so, you know, Greg, it sounds like you have an amazing practice in the morning of, of movement and sort of resetting your consciousness and dropping into gratitude. And, and if that's working for you, then you know, I think feeling really good about continuing on that on that trajectory. I, I know that, you know, when we take a moment to practice gratitude, it really helps us drop out of story drop out of our storyline, about, you know, all of the things that we're so worried about or that that aren't going the way that we want or that we feel like we need to get control over. It's a very centering, grounding, practice, even if it's something that's very A small like being grateful for a warm, delicious cup of coffee in the morning, right? Those are grounding moments to just bring us out of the whirlwind of whatever the storyline in our minds are. And when we journal about it, there's something very powerful about writing, it's part of what helps to repattern the brain and help develop pathways in the brain where we, we start to actually naturally think and respond to the world along those lines of feeling grateful of seeing things through that lens. And it's, um, it's, it just creates almost like a multisensory practice around gratitude that that impacts every aspect of of our being. Now, you know, it is all lovely sounding, and it is easier said than done. And usually with my clients, what we talk a lot about is really, really small, consistent behaviors, right? So what can you commit to on a daily basis, that is really too small to even be able to have an excuse, like, what have you just tell yourself that every single morning, I call it the first thought, best thought practice, you know, every single morning, the first thing that you're going to do, is just think momentarily about what you're grateful for, and you train yourself that the cue of, for example, your alarm clock, is that reminder of, oh, I'm thinking about what I'm grateful for right now, because my alarm just went off. And that's the pattern, that's the habit that I want to create, maybe before you go to bed. It's, I write one sentence of, you know, something that I had an insight on today, or reflection or something that I'm grateful for. And, and, and starting really small, and being incredibly consistent, is exponentially more powerful than, you know, doing something for an hour once in a while. It's just, it's the only way to start to incorporate some of these practices in a life changing way. In my experience,

Greg Voisen
well, and I would agree with you, and you know, the whole concept of tiny habits, you know, the gentleman from Stanford's been, I'm trying to remember his name. He's been on here and James clear as well, right? So, you know, when you look at it, it's finding things that you're excited about doing. And I like what you said there. Because, you know, when you got man who came in, who was, I wouldn't say beating himself up, but doing the triathlons and was having a difficult time finding more mobility in his life. You know, you gave him a simple practice of meditation that he may not have explored on his own, he might have kept down the same path, to make him more limber, but more importantly, the breathing. The breathing part of that to actually recenter yourself and leave a meditation practice. Like, I'm going to say this, like you're on cloud nine. It's kind of like, when when I leave meditation, it's like it's a whole new, Greg. And the question is, is how long can you carry that during the day? And keep yourself centered? And you know, I mentioned a minute ago, your wonderful mentors and teachers, many who have been on the show, Jon Kabat Zinn, Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzberg, what are some of the things that you learn from them that you've brought forward into your own practice, and are now transforming helping your clients transform by using it in their practice?

Julie Wald
Hmm, I think so many of the teachers that I have learned so much from and so many amazing teachers through the years, there's something very simple about their approach and their ideas and their understanding. And it's really just kind of the returning again and again and again to the simple ideas and concepts about, you know, being present, finding the wherewithal to be responsive, instead of reactive to find small ways to love and support ourselves and how that's the beginning of really being able to be a compassionate, you know, human citizen on this planet. And these these very, very, very clear and simple ideas that when we when we just that it all basically ends up going back to those concepts again and again and again. So when somebody comes to me when a client comes to me in a very worked up or complicated place, or you know it all, and I start to feel my own overwhelmed because as, as a coach, as a psychotherapist, you know, one of the tools that we use the sort of the way that we feel when we're with a client, and if I'm working with somebody who's really intense, or really type A, or really overwhelmed, I can feel that in my body. And, you know, the way that I work with myself and in grounding myself and trying to kind of see the simple truths. The simple ideas that are going to be the guiding principle and helping this individual back to a state of equilibrium always seems to be kind of the light through the tunnel, so to speak.

Greg Voisen
Well, I think as your background as a therapist and your background, as a teacher in this, I'm going to call it inner work. It's so valuable for people to, to experience to experience it in any way, whether it's through yoga, or breathwork, or tai chi, or anything that you're doing that you're helping them with or just counseling, just the initial counseling part of it. Because it and this is my next question, you say that all mental, emotional and physical patterning from our lives is stored in the cells of our body, I agree, contributing to the tension that we feel in our neck or in our John, the tightness in our lower back, or the pain that we feel in our knees or wherever that pain may be manifesting, because it does manifest throughout. And I find that, you know, because you've done plenty of work with this in the chakras. But if people are doing meditation properly, and they're bringing it back in, they're realigning those energies in their chakras, what kinds of body work and or massage do you recommend to move this stuck energy because when this energy gets stuck in you, you're a Reiki Master Reiki Masters are the best at moving energy can be so talk with our listeners about that with a minute and then we'll wrap up our podcast.

Julie Wald
Beautiful I love Well obviously I think Reiki and other types of energy work as well I know there's some some different expressions of of similar types of energy work, I think that this is something that can be done alone or integrated into massage therapy. I love acupressure, I love shiatsu and love Thai bodywork, which is sort of a different. A different type of you know, is otherwise known as lazy person's yoga. So it's, it's really some moving some of the gross muscles around in getting mobility in the joints, which I think can depending on the person feel really, really, really supportive and sometimes is necessary before we get to some of the subtler practices. You know, I think that it's so individualized depending on what somebody might be struggling with, right. So there have been times where, you know, things like lymphatic drainage or deep tissue massage, or sports massage are really the most important places to begin because of what's sort of happening and manifesting in a very obvious way the physical body and again, kind of once we work through some of those physical issues, we can start to peel off the layers of the onion and work in a more energetic fashion with things like as I mentioned, she ought to and acupressure and Reiki and I also am a huge fan and used to do a lot of this very early on in my career is really work with guided visualization, and helping people use their own minds to start to clear out some of the blockages particularly in the chakra system.

Greg Voisen
Well, very powerful guided visualization in conjunction with affirmations that I'm a strong believer in and whether you journal Are you don't like I'm not. The reality is if you were going to use journaling, and I remember from my course at USM and spiritual psychology, one of the most powerful things I think I ever did was write in the journal the things in my life that were very painful, and then burn it. Actually stick it in the fire. And it was the act of actually releasing that I think people talk about losing weight. But then we also talk about releasing weight. Releasing means we're, we're saying it's not coming back, losing it, to get means to me that it could come back again. But actually, those words are very powerful. And I think when you write words in a journal, and then you either burn them or get rid of them, however you do it, but burning, believe me, it works throughout the fireplace. So Julie, if you were to leave the listeners with three actionable ideas that could work immediately, because I always like to give people like, okay, immediate benefit here from our podcast, would that would help them to be at a greater peace and have more self care with themselves? What are you going to say are going to be the three things that they could actually do? Leaving this podcast and go, Okay, I can apply this today. One small step, for me in self care.

Julie Wald
Absolutely. So these are just three Fun, fun tips. And hopefully, one will be resonant, I think, setting a timer on your phone or your computer throughout the course of the day and random times. And when that timer goes off, using that as an opportunity to just take three full, complete breaths, to close your eyes, to stop looking at your screen, and to just pause for a moment to dial your awareness into your body, to give yourself those reminders throughout the day to Take three breaths, if you're resistant to that. That's, that's, that's diagnostics, so to speak. And we know that if the idea of taking three deep breaths is way too much for you to handle. That's good information to have about where we need to support you,

Greg Voisen
or those of you who are watching on YouTube, because many just listen, some watch. I closed my eyes and I took three deep breaths. And her practice. I know it sounds so simple. But it's so centering to just do that to recognize breath. So I'd say that's a great tip. Right there. Number one little things,

Julie Wald
little things can make the hugest differences and people think that just isn't worth it if it's just so small, and it's the most important number. Yeah, number two is to find a buffer between your phone and your bed. Figure out what does that look like is that you don't bring it you buy an old fashioned alarm clock from Amazon. And that's what you use to wake up in the morning. Do you literally give yourself you know, a digital sunset and put your phone to sleep at a certain time of the night and do other things. Even if it's 10 minutes before you go to bed that you decide I'm going to do something else. Figure out what that is for you right now what's progress, even if it's a baby step, that's okay, to just create a little more sacredness in your sleep routine in your bedtime routine, that it's a private time, it's a quiet time, and how can you create that energy. And lastly, I would say find something that feels nourishing to you that's not food, whether it's an amazing song that you love to listen to, that just fills your whole being, whether it's going out into the park or into your backyard or somehow connecting with nature, figure out how you can fill yourself up in ways that have nothing to do with food, not because you necessarily need to release weight, so to speak. But because nourishment is much more than just food.

Greg Voisen
So those are three great things that people were listening are still listening. And you take them away and you apply them. That would be easy for you to do every day. And I think it's Pharrell Williams happiness on when we hang up here. I'm going to go to Amazon music, I'm going to turn it off. Because that's one of the songs that I love. Hopefully, that's good advice for somebody listening as well. Julie, it's been a pleasure having you on. For all my listeners, we're gonna put a link to her website. We'll put a link to that new website that we'll get from her. But her book is called inner wealth. We've been talking with Julie Wald. And it's how wellness heals, nurtures and optimizes ultra successful people. And let me look at that last part of that. Everybody's successful. It's how you put it in your mind. So this book is for everybody. Thanks so much for being on inside personal growth. Namaste to you. Thank you for everything was a great interview.

Julie Wald
Thank Thank you so much Greg so much fun

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Introducing The Conscious Entrepreneur Summit
Being an entrepreneur can be stressful, lonely, and all-consuming. But it doesn’t have to be that way. The goal of this conference is to give entrepreneurs the tools they need to thrive as they build the businesses of their dreams.
The Conscious Entrepreneur Summit (https://consciousentrepreneur.us) is a 2-day, in-person gathering of ambitious entrepreneurs (just like the Inside Personal Growth community) taking place in Denver on May 17 and 18.

The event is bringing together over a dozen amazing speakers (Srikumar Rao, Kaley Klemp, Jerry Colonna, Rob Dube, and more) to share their wisdom and help entrepreneurs become more inspired, purposeful, and resilient leaders. Think of the Conscious Entrepreneur Summit as two days of content geared toward helping you get to the next level of person and professional success.

I think this aligns really well with your mission, and I know that many members would benefit from being a part of this event.
For The Inside Personal Growth Community: 
Use this code for $150 off – INSIDEPERSONALGROWTH – or direct link to www.eventbrite.com/e/197047503387/?discount=INSIDEPERSONALGROWTH

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth, this is Greg Voisen and the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Boulder Colorado is Alex Raymond. Alex, Good day to you. How are you?

Alex Raymond
Hey, hello, Greg. I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. And congrats on over 930 episodes of the show man Oh, man.

Greg Voisen
It is something you have to stay persistent at, let me tell you, and we've got some great besides you, we've got some great people coming up. We're going to be doing one with a Marshall Goldsmith. In next week, and I want everybody to take a look at that one, it's going to be called your earned life is the name of his new book. So that's great. But Alex is Alex piqued my interest. And I don't normally do this. But I saw this conscious entrepreneurs summit in Denver, May 7, and eighth. And for all my listeners in the Denver and surrounding areas. This to me with what I saw was going to be the speakers. The format of the meeting, it's a live session, it's not something you do on the computer, you actually get to go meet people upfront, shake hands. I thought I wanted to promote this for him and get the word out. And but I think it's good that you know a little bit about Alex first, because why would he want to do this? Why does he want to invest his time and conscious entrepreneur Summit. So Alex, you know, you've traveled around a bit, you own a software company called CAPTA. Tell us a little bit about you, and what inspired you to want to take the time away from your other business to promote this conscious, conscious entrepreneurs Summit, which by the way, for my listeners, it's May 17, and 18th. And we're going to put a link, you're also going to get off $150 to this summit, we're going to put a special link called where you can sign up through Eventbrite. The normal rate is 774, something like that? Well, what's the rate Alex?

Alex Raymond
Normal, the normal rate is 748 for the two day pass, and your audience will get it for just under 600 bucks.

Greg Voisen
Okay. So figure it 599, or whatever that turns out to be. So it's a great deal for two days, and especially with the speakers, he's got lined up, and we're gonna get into that in a minute. But Alex, tell us, you know, what inspired you to want to do this? Have you done this before? Is it something that you know, you just do every year? Fill us in?

Alex Raymond
Sure. Yeah, no, thanks. Great. So as you mentioned, I live in Boulder, Colorado, I've been a software entrepreneur for about 10 years. The company that I run today is called Kappa, that's ka PTA, kappa.com. And it's software for post sales account managers. And let me tell you that, you know, this is easy to say, but it's hard to internalize for a lot of people, being an entrepreneur can be very difficult. It can be lonely, it can be tough, it can be stressful. And what I have found along my journey, is I've made literally all of the mistakes, every mistake in the entrepreneur book, getting way too stressed out about stuff, spending time comparing myself to others, thinking that everything is hyper personalized in me thinking that I am the Business getting burned out, you know, just feeling like I'm running on fumes. And I've you know, I've experienced all this along with the ups and downs of being an entrepreneur as you're trying to build a business. And some of the things that happened to me along my journey. Were, for example, being part of the very prestigious, very well known TechStars accelerator. And so this is a really well known program for startup company. And it's a really big deal to be involved in this community. And we were fortunate enough to be selected to participate in TechStars is back in 2014. Greg, and it was an amazing experience. Highly recommended, absolutely great. But I tell you what, at some point about halfway through the TechStars program, I get home one evening, and my wife says to me, this is supposed to be the highlight of your career, you're supposed to be at the absolute peak, and I have never seen you more miserable in your life. I'm laughing. I've never been more miserable in your life. And so my wife is mirroring to me, all the things I'm doing wrong. And I'm so grateful that she gave me a swift kick. And said, get out there reorient, reframe what you're thinking, and go out there and be the person be the resilient leader, the inspiring leader you can be and so

Greg Voisen
You know, it is you know, it's, I relate so much because I was a serial entrepreneur still am. And by the way, I'm gonna send you a copy of my book hack. Bridging the gap a journey from intuition to innovation beyond you know, when you say it's a, it's a lonely journey, and there's all these pressures. And then the flip side of the coin is that everything we do is self induced. We're responsible 100% for ourselves how we live our lives. But it's really hard for an entrepreneur because of the comparison, you just mentioned that they're comparing themselves Why should be like this person, or I should have made that much money or I should already be here or should have would could. The reality is that's not the way it works in this summit is for all of you, who are out there questioning that question in it, because one of his first gateways not the first guest on the program. But one of the guests is Dr. Rao. And I know him personally from having worked with him, but also having had him on the show a couple of times. And I mentioned a minute ago book with Marshall Goldsmith, I actually met him through Marshall Goldsmith. And so speak with us about because, you know, one of his big things is, is happiness in the workplace, you know, so spoke with us about that.

Alex Raymond
So I mean, I love sweet Kumar, Rao, I love his work, it's, it's been life changing for me. And it's one of the things that I, I kind of just, I resonated with me so strongly. And, you know, his view of the world is he says, I'm a translator, he says, I'm a translator from all sorts of other wisdoms and traditions into the modern business environment. And so he says, things like, start with the choice of being happy. When you do that, when you make the conscious choice to be happy, good things happen all around, you change your mindset, you change your life, as opposed to thinking, well, I'll be happy when some something happened, I'll be happy. And when I raise money, I'll be happy when I sell my business, I'll be happy when I find a partner, or whatever it is, you're putting this if then thinking into your brain. And so what I love about Dr. Rao is he says, start with the state that you want to be in happy, grateful, you know, feeling great about yourself. And then that will change how you view the world that will change how you experience the world. Well,

Greg Voisen
you spoke, you know, you look, one of the Eastern traditions, and I've studied Eastern philosophy, and I can see you probably do a little bit yourself is, you know, our attachment, you know, one of the four noble truths is that attachment, you know, as Buddha said, there's suffering and then there's the end of suffering, well, the suffering is caused by you. So the only end of suffering can be caused by you. So he is absolutely right. He is. He is right on about that. And the other one of the other people that I know is going to be speaking is Kaylee Klemp. And Kaylee and her husband, Nate, who I know better than Kaylee actually wrote a book called the ADHD marriage together. We recently did an interview and for all those listening to the show, you can just type in ADHD marriage into my podcast, and you'll see that, but she's also a phenomenal coach, and she's an entrepreneurial coach, speak with us. What about what you've learned from Kaylee. And what she's going to be speaking about, because Dr. Rao is, is kind of in the later in the program, and I think you're ending more ending with him on the second day, because he's, he's really going to give the audience's the opportunity to rejigger their whole mindset and look at their subconscious. How do you program that subconscious? I can speak from honesty. I've actually do hypnotherapy and I have someone that does that on me, and it really makes a big difference, but speaks about Kayleigh.

Alex Raymond
So I found out about Kaylee Clem through the book, The 15 commitments of conscious leadership, which a mentor of mine, Sue Heilbroner gave me years ago. And I have gifted that book to many, many fellow entrepreneurs as well. The 15 commitments of conscious leadership is just such a great framework. And so Kaley is a co author of that book. And at the event at the conscious entrepreneur Summit, she's going to be sharing what she calls four secrets of conscious entrepreneurs, about being curious about being responsible. And this is stuff that just is going to be so powerful for entrepreneurs in their daily lives. And in fact, Greg, the number one commitment, the first commitment of the 15 commitments of conscious leadership is something you just mentioned, which is I take 100% responsibility for my life. So just like you were saying, it starts and ends with you. Recognizing that is one thing talking about it is another thing, living it is completely different. So I'm super excited for Kaley because she's gonna go into this really deep, she has a wealth of knowledge. She's worked with EO groups, YPO groups, she has all these private clients who come to her for executive coaching. So she has really seen a lot and is going to bring all that experience to the event.

Greg Voisen
Well, I'm for all entrepreneurs are listening, you know, I, I went back to school late and got a master's degree in spiritual psychology. One of the things we used to say two things, one, you don't have to believe everything you think. So first one. Second one is if there was a camera that was following you all day long. And then you played the video back at the end of the day, what you saw, would you like what you saw? And I think that perspective of just taking a glimpse into the one day view of Greg voicing, or of Alex Raymond or anybody who comes to the summit, you know, Dr. Rouse going to have you open that door up and examine some of those things that you're doing. I know he is because that's what he does really well. And you're going to want to change some of those habits and behaviors and we know that they're tough, because you're reprogramming yourself. Speak with us about you've got some breakout speakers, you've got some other speakers, tell us let's we have time to do one more, maybe profile. One more speaker, who would be the third one on your list that would just be like, knock your socks off.

Alex Raymond
I mean, I can talk about all my speakers because I love I love them all. They're there, too. In particular, I'd highlight Jerry Kelowna is based in Boulder. He's an executive coach. And he is someone who has just lived through all this stuff as an entrepreneur and his drive is to share that with the world. He runs a group called reboot here in Boulder. He's written a book called reboot, and he's going to do we're going to do kind of like a fireside chat he and I on leadership and the art of growing up. So what

Greg Voisen
His website is reboot IO, right?

Alex Raymond
reboot.io? That's correct. That's correct. The other person I would highlight simply here, Greg is Rob Dubay. Rob is so inspiring. He's the CEO of this amazing company called Image one. On top of that, he's a meditator, mindfulness teacher, he is just doing so much to raise the consciousness of the world. He wrote a book called do nothing. He's got an amazing podcast and outreach and he is going to be doing a talk on 10 disciplines for managing and maximizing your energy, which is a program that he actually put together with Gino Wickman, the founder of Eos entrepreneur offering Gino Geno's. Yeah, so that's going to be an amazing program too. So, here's the point on the conscious entrepreneur Summit, no matter where you are in your journey, if you're just starting out, if you're five years in, or if you're doing $100 million in revenue, we're going to give you tools to build resilience to overcome stress to overcome fear to get out of your own way. So this is not something that's targeted toward, you know, big companies, small companies, but anyone who's gone through that journey or is interested in the entrepreneurial journey, they'll all benefit from learning from these amazing folks.

Greg Voisen
Well, Dr. And I'm trying to think of his name, the book was the power of full engagement, they sold millions of copies, he's been on my show two or three times and incense become just a really good advocate for us. You know, that energy management partner, the part that he's going to speak about, is so important, because in entrepreneurship, if you don't manage your energy, most likely you're gonna burn out. And the reality about managing energy has to do with your ability to sustain long periods of, you know, innovation, design, sales, whatever, you have to deal with that to get your product to market or service to market or whatever it is. And I would say if there's any one thing, and I'm glad you got robbed doing this with you on a fireside chat is, seriously, everybody listen to this. I've had for startups, I've literally been to the brink of everything. You know, I was having anxiety attacks to the degree that I was really debilitated. I was staying inside. I didn't want to go anywhere because I was afraid. It can really physically affect your health. And so whether it's meditation, I did some biofeedback. I then joined Self Realization fellowship, I became a devotee, whatever you need to do, I just tell people look, if it's long walks in the park, if it's if it's going to the beach, if it's having something to get your mind off of it, you've got to do it. And I can tell you probably the most therapeutic session is going to be Alex and Rob at the fireside. Speaking about all the trials and tribulations they've put up with Rob just said his wife told him you are the big you need didn't say it this way, but it sounded like maybe it was way too Do you need to get it right, Alex? Or else?

Alex Raymond
Well, Oreos is great is real? Yeah. How many entrepreneurs do you know who are, you know, divorced or, you know, tough situations with their families and with their spouses or you know, they don't have great personal relationships. And so we know that this is, it's critical. You've got to have personal health, relationship, health, emotional health, and then you can have business health and success. And what I say what I truly believe is, every dollar you invest in yourself, every hour, you invest in yourself, pays out 10 or 100 times in the world. Everything I need to do it. Well,

Greg Voisen
Look, you've been successful. It looks like you spent many of your years outside of this country working, doing was it technology based startup stuff?

Alex Raymond
Primarily? Yes, I can. The tech field I lived in London for while I went to business school in France. I lived in Hong Kong. I was in Beijing. Yeah.

Greg Voisen
So take it from somebody who's really had his feet to the fire. Right, Alex? And the reason that tell me something, you say you've done this more than once? Is that correct? This isn't the first summit or is this the first summit?

Alex Raymond
This summit is the first time and it's based on everything I've been able to learn over the years. And I'm bringing everyone together. My view on this, Greg is I don't have all the answers. But I can create a space where people who do know lots of stuff can come together and share and that's the vision.

Greg Voisen
Well, I would strongly encourage my listeners. Without further ado, to go to conscious entrepreneur.us. We will put a code there'll be a $350 off code. For anybody that comes through my site to come to this. At the same time, we'll put a link up to kept up. We'll put a link up to Kaylee's take Kaley clamp, so that you can see on his website for the conscious entrepreneur Summit. You're going to see videos at the bottom YouTube videos. I encourage everybody to just take a look at some of those videos. One of them is a TED talk. I think that Kaylee did. There's others there. When you hear Dr. Rao in his Indian voice, you're going to be mesmerized because he really does. He doesn't speak like Alex ri. He speaks in a very, very calm tone. And he's the kind of guy that gets

Alex Raymond
You what? Yeah, absolutely. Mesmerizing.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's mesmerizing. So just for that alone, to get you guys dial man would be great. But importantly, about Dr. Rao at UCLA, and some of the other universities he's taught out. He taught a whole MBA course in this. And I'm trying to remember the name of it. Can you tell me what it is?

Alex Raymond
Yeah. So the course is called Creativity and personal mastery. That's Columbia, London Business School, UCLA.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, he had it all over because he gave me the syllabus of the whole course.

Alex Raymond
So that's a great read that syllabus.

Greg Voisen
Well, what's more important about the read is the books he recommends to read. As a result of going through that, I mean, if you just picked out two or three, the one that Kaley did, that Alex just mentioned, would be a great one. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna go, why when we're done, and order that off of Amazon, because I haven't read that one. Alex, is there anything else you want our listeners to know about the summit? Any of the other speakers before we wrap this up, and I let you get on with your day?

Alex Raymond
The one thing I'd say is this is not just based on my personal journey, I have been a mentor to dozens of other entrepreneurs along the way. And I know that a lot of people, you know, they feel that something's off or they feel afraid, or they have you know, risk of burnout and stuff like that. And often they don't know the first step to take or they don't feel like it's okay to talk about this stuff. So I don't want to what I want to make very clear is, it is okay to be an entrepreneur to be a successful entrepreneur, and at the same time, feel like hey, things are not right in here. And what we're doing with this conscious entrepreneur Summit is creating the space for us to understand what's happening, and get tools to build resilience and overcome whatever's in our way. So it's okay if you're feeling this, it's okay if you don't know, hey, how do I how do I where do I get started? How do I talk about this stuff? That's exactly what this community is all about. And thank you, Greg, for helping us to apify voice

Greg Voisen
While you're quite welcome, and I always appreciate doing it, because the suffering associated with it is self induced. The hardest part is to realize and be aware that it's self induced. And to get that awareness that the suffering as a result, the pain, the whatever you want to call it, confusion you go through, you think you should have all the answers and you don't requires a lot of and I know this sounds so simplistic for my listeners, because they've heard this from me, letting go. You know, because in the end in our finitude, I have a saying over on the wall from the Dalai Lama, you're only going to be known by how much he loved, how many people loved you, and how much you let go. And nobody on their deathbed, or not many entrepreneurs I've known who've gotten terminal cancer, and I've known many have sat there in the bed in the hospital, and said, I wished I'd been at the office one more day, or I'd closed one more deal or I'd, I hammered something out, or I've done something that wasn't what they were saying to themselves. What they were saying to themselves is that I wish I had a better understanding of this transition spiritually, from the physical body, the physical body that we're in, into the astral planes that you're going to go into, and understanding myself spiritually. And I say this journey is an entrepreneur journey, with a big dose of spiritualism, and I'm not advocating that he's putting on a spiritual conference. But I'll bet you many of you who go will have a spiritual awakening as a result of the speakers, and especially Dr. Rao. If there was one person who would be allowed to push the envelope at this conference, it's going to be Dr. Rao. So I would say you know, you might want to, you might want to go just to hear him but more importantly, Kaylee all the rest of them. Alex, I just want to acknowledge you for putting this on, for taking the time to do it. I know how grueling this could be, because I've been an event producer. And for all of you out there, we're gonna put the links but for right now, I don't have it up. But I'm gonna say it conscious entrepreneur dot U. S, to the two day Summit, it's May 17, and 18th in Denver, and the location I forgot, we're downtown somewhere. We're that

Alex Raymond
We’re in downtown Denver at a beautiful event space called asterisk. So really easy to get to. Yep.

Greg Voisen
Okay. And for all my listeners in the in and around the Denver surrounding area, I just remembered three or four more I need to refer to you. Please go to the website, click on this link that we're going to give you to get off your $150 code. And Alex, thanks again for spending a little time on the show. Namaste to you. And thank you for everything that you're doing.

Alex Raymond
Thank you, Greg. Great to be here.

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Joining me for this podcast is a CEO, board and start up adviser, consultant, speaker and investor, Hamish Thomson.Truly competent in his 30-year career, he has been a successful Regional President and Global Brand head for Mars Incorporated (UK, Australia and Chicago), a senior marketing and sales lead for Reebok International (England and the Netherlands) and a fresh-faced account executive in the London advertising scene.

In this interview, we mainly discussed his book entitled It’s Not Always Right to Be Right: And Other Hard-Won Leadership Lessons. The book is an autobiographical account of business and personal insight from 30 years of corporate experience which also includes commentary and critique from 17 leading international business experts – leaders of global industry, diplomacy and advocacy.

Hamish also gives a flavour of his writing by including the book’s opening pages along with a quick excerpt from the first two chapters. If you want to read it, you may check his website by clicking here.

You may also check more about Hamish and his works in his website.

I hope you enjoy this engaging interview with Hamish Thomson. Happy listening!

THE BOOK

An autobiographical account of business and personal insight from 30 years of corporate experience. Also included is commentary and critique from 17 leading international business experts (refer below) – leaders of global industry, diplomacy and advocacy. It contains diversity of thoughts and these contributors provide value added perspective that you can certainly learn something from it.

THE AUTHOR

A New Zealander from birth, Hamish Thomson is a seasoned global leadership executive. In a 30-year career, he has been a successful CEO/Regional President and Global Brand head for Mars Incorporated (UK, Australia and Chicago), a senior marketing and sales lead for Reebok International (England and the Netherlands) and a fresh-faced account executive in the London advertising scene.

A board director, leadership author and keynote speaker, start-up adviser and consultant, he currently resides in Sydney, Australia with his wife and three children.


You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Well welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and a host of Inside Personal Growth. And I have Hamish Thompson on the line from Sydney, Australia long way away 6am His time currently one o'clock our time here in good old sunny San Diego today we are going to be speaking about his new book. It's not always right to be right. Another hard one leadership lessons. Good. Dania Hamish, how are you? Hello, Greg, delighted to be with you. I'm glad you're awake enough to do this podcast.

Hamish Thomson
I'm quite lucky, actually, normally the side of the world and I do a lot with the US and Europe. Normally I get stung in the middle of the night. So thank you very much for you and your audience. I appreciate you for being on and I appreciate who you are, and what you are all the effort you went to, to get the critiques at the back of this and each of these chapters from all of these people, plus the lessons that you articulated in the book for all my leaders who listened because most of them are leaders, CEOs, CFOs

Greg Voisen
HR directors, middle management, you will want to and will have a wink, not only get the book, but go to his website, and his website is pretty easy. It's Hamish h-a-m-i-s-h. Don't forget the t-h-o-m-s-o-n, don’t forget the H because most people want to put an h in that. And I'm gonna let him know a little bit about you. He's a New Zealander from birth. He's a seasoned global leader, executive and 30-year career. It's been a successful CEO and regional president and regional brand head for Mars. So but mars pet food I found out, not those big Mars candy bars you guys like to eat from UK, Australia and Chicago, a Senior Marketing and Sales Lead for Reebok International, England and Netherlands and fresh faced account executive in the London advertising scene, border director and leader, author, keynote speaker, startup advisor and consultant. And He currently resides as he said in Sydney, but he will be traveling to the states here quite a bit. And he resides there with his wife and three children. And he's got a beautiful website, go there to learn more about him the models consultation. What Hamish can do for you? Well, look, you would think that the book just by itself is a pretty good indicator of what the books is about. But let's face it, we all run into leaders. We had one year ago, Donald Trump, there wouldn't have been one president ever in a country that he was always right. No one was ever wrong. It was always the Donald way or the highway. We currently have leaders in Russia, who he thinks he's right, everything that he does. And then we have an example of a leaders Alinsky in Ukraine right now, who really is a trusted and inspired leader, not a command and control leader. And you know, unfortunately, I'm glad where it's going to see the breakdown of all these systems that have been revolving around command and control and move into what I would call an enlightened air of leaders. And as you mentioned in the introduction, that life is damn hard at the best of times, particularly in the cut and thrust of the corporate world, right. And that's pretty good description of it. Whether you're just starting out or you're battle hardened, global leader, the demands of business are relentless, I get it. Tell us a little about you, and what you've learned, generally, from all the contributing authors who critiqued you, at the end of each of these chapters in your book, because it's fascinating how you went about it. You told these great stories, you put it all together, then you asked all these people to critique you. And then they write a critique at the end. I've never actually read a book like that.

Hamish Thomson
I suppose Greg, some people would say I'm a little bit lazy actually getting others to do that contribution. I'm a, I'm a type of individual I love challenge. And I love to think of different directions and different thought processes and thought leadership versus my own. And I've always sort of thought great leaders, they value the opinions of others ahead of themselves. So I love that idea. I think there's about 17 chapters within it. I'm your typical sort of ego centric CEO. I did actually look after the conviction side on a on the Mars front as well. So I'm a little bit guilty of that.

Greg Voisen
Oh, well, you talked about the pet food division. So I was getting I

Hamish Thomson
covered capital, I'd say. So I do have very sort of firm opinions and views on things. But I decided I got experts within different fields. So from different sort of CEOs and global presidents, consultants, lawyers, advocate groups, etc. And I just got on to challenge my thoughts and my views on each of these leadership topics. I think it adds value to the book that definitely adds perspective from insanely curious on that front. And again, I think it just challenges some of that sort of thought process as well. I remember once I was told by a chap called Samson Susan, who's an Asia Pacific boss that I had many years ago. And he said, Hamish, your mind works like a parachute based when open. And I just thought that was really sort of apt that it opened up sort of that whole new perspective. So I'm actually a New Zealander, Greg, most my law sort of working life crossing Europe, fair bit within the US. And I think you have an insatiable curiosity, when you're within a smaller town, and sort of looking out like breath and everything in my career to date. It wasn't planned. But it's all been fun. It's been different. You know, even this world of PE and a lot of the startups I'm dealing with at the moment. It's just opened my eyes. So it has been a good journey. And I'm sure it will continue.

Greg Voisen
And look, what's best for us lies in front of us. Now you tell a story about getting hired by Mars Petcare division, you actually even described the office as being pretty fallacious, because you didn't ever think that the offices in your part of the world would be that fallacious. But how big they were, you know, all that kind of stuff. And you correlate the story about wall logic and relationship with Ivan Pavlov, it's Pavlov's dog ringing the bell, bing, bang, come over, get your you know, your treat. Can you tell us the story and some of the steps in mastering relationships, because, hey, look, we've all trained animals. And a lot of people get trained the same way. You know, you get a reward if you do these things. And I know this from the best of the best, because I was always a sales leader, and then went into business entrepreneur. And it was always about your ego drive. If we can satisfy that ego drive, we'll give you another trip to Australia, we'll give you a trip here, we'll send you to Disney World will give you a bonus, we'll do all these external things, which never were intrinsically what I wanted. But, and I was never satisfied afterwards. Right. So I'd love to speak to you about that Pavlok concept and mastering relationships.

Hamish Thomson
Yeah, it's a, it's an interesting one. And I've been very fortunate to think sort of, particularly within Reebok and Mars. I've always had exceptional leaders around there. And I think they've inspired the right way to do things. And this particular sense, when, when I first joined within Mazda, Inc, it was it was a certain chap, who was the head of research and development. And I went in thinking that would be a very, this is the interview stage, and I was going to be a very scientific and very functional and technical discussion. So being the EGA, sort of young person, I was, I think, was going for the marketing here at the time. I was sort of prepared on that side, we opened up and he said, Hamish, you've spent a fair bit around the world and different parts within, obviously, Asia, Pacific, Europe and the US. He said, give me your ranking between relationships, law and logic, where they sit with each of those markets and those regions. And I must have made it through me and I tried to do the intellectually sort of answer and starts to go into a bit of logic around where it is in regard to the current political leaders or environments or if you're French, it's slightly different from being from Seattle, etc. And his whole point behind us, which great leaders make in regard to the point, it doesn't matter where you are, relationships will always trump logic and law. And it took me a little bit what a while to realize that but the amount of times you see amazing, innovative, creative, technical solutions from brilliant people, they generally a half leveraged, and they generally don't get off the ground and less they develop relationships and integrators and connectors that take it wider. And it was just a it was a really sort of key lesson on that that I take them seriously and I think most young Lee is when you start, you think it's all around technical and functional development. And the very first element, Greg would say, is start believing in the importance of relationships, but dedicate most of your time to leadership development as opposed to functional development. And normally, that only happens when you start to get a little bit more senior. So I think that's very key. The other sort of good tips of everyone that I sort of follow an outline within the book, if you're a leader of others, start placing your best integrators and connectors and your relationship people on key projects, even if functionally, they know bugger all about the topic. That's different from what I used to actually do. But those people who can actually inspire and garner groups and allies and an alignment and cohesion behind things and massively under leveraged and undervalued. And then I think the other one is just for most of us at the moment. I always try and start off my relationships with a thing concept, what I call day one trust. So I give people immediate trust, as opposed to having to earn that trust, there's sometimes you can get stung on there. But intuition generally, will see you actually have those relationships, but the beauty of day one, trust its speed of relationships. And when you have that, that's when your breakthrough can actually take place. The standard stuff like start with personal first business later, I think that's very key. And we all actually get that in our own right. But it is something that took me probably too long to appreciate. Relationships definitely here of law and logic. So true,

Greg Voisen
what you say. And my last podcast, prior to this one was Stephen, Mr. Covey on trust and inspire. And you know, he's the one who's probably written more about trust than anybody. And where it's going now is what a leader has to do to change the culture to a trust inspired culture, versus command and control. And I love what you said, because I'd say probably my whole life. I come from a Jewish mother and a Christian father. But when your mom's Jewish, you're Jewish, and I'm a Maven. And if anybody out there listening, understands what a Maven is, I've probably been the best Maven, my whole life, which MAVEN is a connector. It's a person that connects other people without any restitution. Just I think you ought to do that. And most of my week, is now spent connecting people with other people, and then seeing the blossoming of the relationships, because we're all interconnected. And I think that's so important. You have a chapter that you entitled drains and radiators, and you quote Ralph Waldo Emerson, people do not seem to realize that their opinions of the world is also a confession of their character. You mentioned that you use the drains and radiators story frequently. Can you tell the listeners the story and the lessons that you've learned from the 30% rule?

Hamish Thomson
I think it's a it's a reasonably easy concept to understand. So the story itself, as I'll talk around that, but probably let me step back a little bit and just talk drains and radiators. So the drain is, is essentially what it says. And we all have drain moments that drain frames that could be sort of family members as well. But as people who see things differently in regard to a pessimistic style, they have many limiting beliefs, they, they suck energy from a room, and it's definitely not a can do attitude. And it's okay to have drain moments. We all get that. But I always used to say great, there's nothing worse as a leader by having drains around you within an organization. But I step back on that there is actually a lot worse. It's having a drain within your organization who infects the wider base of employees, and it just spreads like wildfire. irradiator does exactly what it says can do attitude positive, very results oriented and driven. And just in life and energy throughout the room. And the story around different chi red has different claims within the space. It was a large global advertising agency. And essentially the founder and CEO stood at the top of the stairs within his palatial surroundings, pulled everyone together and basically said, Hey, I love radiators. If you're a radiator, you'll go far within the business. If you're a drain, you can bugger off and you can bugger off now out. And he said a little bit more with colorful language. But I think the principles behind it are absolutely true. Now I always used to from a leadership perspective. Again, I would probably hire a lot of very intellectually clever people, typically very sound. But I didn't really think around the impact on the rest of the business. I've now got a higher in philosophy that I call C plus w is greater than II. curiosity and willingness and willingness with passion is greater than experience. And when you get those people who are incredibly curious, incredibly passionate, like out there and fix us right across the business, I now focus on getting the right people when, as opposed to the typically most gifted within there are put hiring radiators and advancing recognizing rewarding radiators way ahead of any engagement survey, Gallup process and everything, even though they're invaluable. They are not as good as getting those right people within the organization. And I think the other one is on that, as I said before, is when you get the right people when really give them key stretching assignments, and they will be the ones that were actually radiate energy throughout that concept, Greg, the 30% rule. Essentially what it is, is, I always take and I do this probably in different divisions or region or a country or a brand. I give them the 30% stretch targets. That's hypothetical number. But it's a target that is so ambitious, that the only way you can achieve it is by doing something completely different normally through external contact. And it's a great way to test who's a radiator and who's a drain those radiators, they thrive on it, they love it, they look for opportunity can do attitude, the drains, they'll put an immediate limiting belief up there. So I think it's probably my number one element in regard to people at the moment. Look for radiators.

Greg Voisen
Well, I know this sounds old fashioned. But they've always said, hire for attitude train for skill, you know. So, I mean, that's how many sounds very simplistic and it is, hang on a second, we'll cut this out. That that is very simple. All right. So I know it sounds very simplistic, but the reality is, is that, you know, you can go back to the day because we're not the same age, but maybe closer than some, you know, Zig Ziglar used to say, famous salespersons fail sales trainer. You know, it's not your aptitude that determines your altitude, it's your attitude. And I can always remember that from Zig. And I would think to myself, Man, it really is your attitude that determines your altitude. And your aptitude comes second. And I think that's exactly what you're saying. And I love it, because it is true. Now you state in so many occasions, our partners or our friends, are the driving force behind our success, and importantly, our own self-awareness. Those who know us tend to notice behavioral changes way before we do if you would speak with us about your coach, Jack Jeffries, you had a coach, I think it was from Atlanta said true. Colorado, Colorado, and how he worked with you to transform you personally. Because he I'm gonna say this, it's my show. He called you out on your shit. And you were hiding behind all kinds of crap. But Jack wouldn't have any of it. So tell us a little bit about that story. I always think it's fun to see how a CEO evolves into a CEO through a good coach, like Jack.

Hamish Thomson
your very best coaches are those ones who can have crucial conversations with you. And it's the same with partners or family or friends. You listen to them more than you listen to anyone else. And I've got those things which are the 98% concept and you get a lot of feedback within a multinational you get so much feedback and 98% of it, just let it go over your shoulder. It's doesn't mean it's wrong, but it's only really the 2% that resonates these good coaches like Jay heck cut through. And I remember having this conversation and Jack used to be at CCO and Colorado, he's out on his own now. And basically the element was Jack, I'm not really enjoying myself, I'm sort of struggling is this leadership material really me as that is a little bit sort of to not high pressure, but am I really enjoying it. And he said to me, Hamish, you can change your attitude in a nanosecond. And in this particular case, you either change what you do, or you change your attitude. And if it's the latter, you do it immediately. And he was so right, it was basically you do have a choice. And you always have a choice. Some people have more privilege opportunities, and it's easier for them to make. But others and in this particular case, it was I do something different, or change the attitude. And I liked this element of the instant, and instantaneous nature of the neighborhood actually changing attitude so quickly. So it's really sort of key. And I think that's, I think that's very pertinent across when you go throughout your career, those people who genuinely care for you and start from a position of care, the other ones you can point out when you're starting to lose your true authentic self. So having those key people to be able to have those conversations with you is absolutely key. And then equally, knowing yourself, what are those key trigger points that set you off? I'm a very impatient person, I'm incredibly results oriented on what big driven what's new and fast. But when I start to find myself losing my authentic self, my first signal that comes out, I'm incredibly impatient with others, as opposed to try and give them more freedom and autonomy. I jump in, and I'll try and do it myself. As opposed to coaching and supporting I'll start directing. So it was a really, it was a good lesson from Jack,

Greg Voisen
not always right to be right. Was so spot on. So Well, look, awareness is 100% of the issue. And as soon as you become awareness, you have aware you have a choice. The other thing is there's this constant dynamic between the ego and the soul, the conscious and the subconscious. And what people don't really realize is when you can bring the two in balance, and you can work with your subconscious mind. Your subconscious mind works while you're sleeping, it programs. And it has the ability to manifest anything in your life that you want. Whereas the conscious mind, and the ego is the one that's limiting. It's trying to protect you. And it's saying, hey, Hamish, you know, don't do this, don't do that. Because all I want you to do is survive. Now, the mammalian brain, which we evolved from, understands the ego side greater than it does this, this basically subconscious soul side. So when you get that, and you follow that formula, you literally break open all new avenues and terrain to move to. Now, you state that when you took your new job, that you were way too serious, I can see that, I can still see that. And everyone in your life took a backseat, including the attention to your health. You're saying you gain way you weren't doing what you were originally supposed to do. You tell our listeners about the five step process, to smiling again, that's we're just talking about to smiling again, and what happens to when you become aware of your shortfalls. And here's the other thing, and become aware of how alive you can be and how creative you can be when you realize that you allow that ego to do that to you. Because that's exactly what happens.

Hamish Thomson
I liked your talk around that self-awareness, Craig. And I've always sort of had a view that's, you know, these Johari Windows things, everyone's got blind spots, but when people call out a blind spot and you become aware of us, self-awareness is one thing that you have to self-develop, and you have a responsibility to self-develop. This particular instance I was I was probably around 27 I was hitting up a European marketing comms for Reebok. So it was a great job and I was based in Amsterdam. And if you can't enjoy yourself in Amsterdam, where the hell can you enjoy yourself? And I had a friend I was one of You're out at a restaurant or a bar. And a friend came along and he introduced me to his fiancée and he said, Pam, like you to meet Hamish, the manner used to smile. And it was a very simple thing that he said, but it really got to me. And I pulled him aside and said, What the hell do you mean to the man who used to smile. And he said, for the last few months, you've taken on this new role, and you've just become serious, you've lost yourself within that. And I've always been a serious guy, but I'm also reasonably sort of chilled out. And I have a very good balance of things that I've always believed. If you have excellence in life, you have excellence of business. And if I get the first bit wrong, I'm never going to meet my best. And I'm a massive believer in that as well. As you know, there's no point in having two sides for someone, you've got to be 100%, the same as who you are at work as you are at home, it's just brings out the best. But this was a real sort of wake up call on less and it's made me sort of think back and those steps that I won't go through sort of each of them, it is definitely find out who those trusted people are, you know, your own signals or directly and actually have regular check in points along the way to see Have you got that balance. And as if that other one honors, which is really key. Don't try and be somebody else that you're not. And that's particularly important for new starters, and I've got a different approach on this a new graduate and new intern or new starter, a lot of people talk around your first 90 days just sort of sit alone and don't give sort of too much input observe. My view is one, never given approve mode. You've already got the job, you've done the hard work on that. But from day one, give your input and give your thoughts. That's the perspective the fresh eyes come in. And normally, that's the most invaluable perspective and thought that comes in. And I've always had a thing, Greg, that I've, I've written down just before even starting in a new role or country, all my hypotheses are what I would do what I think is right within the business, and eight times out of 10, when you look back, you normally get that first intuition, right? So it was a pretty key lesson, I fall into it a couple of times taking things too seriously. But you never do best when you do.

Greg Voisen
Well, I think the Buddhists have a statement. And because this show covers on philosophies. When you're attached to the outcome of anything, doesn't mean that we don't have goals, doesn't mean we don't have aspirations, doesn't mean we don't have intentions. But the best laid plans don't always work out the way you think they're going to work out. And if you're attached to the way you think the plan is going to work, just see how God brings that together for you. And then you'll see that it's not always that way. And I say that because you know you have to have a degree of flexibility about you. A degree of curiosity, along with that flexibility allows for great outcomes. Now, that aspect, you know, getting attached to that expectation is a mindset that's fixed. Right? But you need to be in flux, not in physics. And if you're in flux, and you know how to handle flux, you literally get the outcome, but not always exactly how you expected to get there. Now, you have a personal hero, Richie McCaw, the legend coach of the All Blacks I saw his picture in your book, I know all about the All Blacks because I was gonna buy a t shirt when I was in New Zealand. And then you know, I looked at the price and I was like, holy Criminy. And what like $100 for a T shirt, you state that humility and spades values through the roof and a lead by example, work ethic that is yet to be matched. Please speak with us about this distinction between I just said it results and awards. You know what he got not to be tied to expectations of the outcome, not to be tied to the outcome. And that's why he was such a damn good coach.

Hamish Thomson
So there's an element on he's us probably one of the best he's a captain in the All Blacks two World Cup winning elements and he is a CFC superstar and there's a great Maori proverb. Within there this is the Coomer which is the sweet potato doesn't have to say how sweet it is, and I I love that because he's a person that just steps back and has that humility. very charismatic, but is respected. And he's also liked as a leader. And I think that's a key difference on that. And I was lost to sort of told very clearly that when you respected people follow you, but when you respected the light that walk over coals for you, and an exceptional leader, will walk over coals for their people. And there's a little bit of a difference on that. And that's sort of key to the awards and, and results from an island that was in London advertising creative head took me out over a boozy lunch. And the seventh bit of tongue in cheek said your results are nice, but awards matter. And, you know, for any of those in traditional blue chip companies, you know, it's sacrilegious to actually say, but I started thinking around us and, you know, I've been very lucky and fortunate regard to my career of having some great results, results, revenue, profit, cash sort of targets and things, people get excited behind them. But it's only really meaningful rewards that you get a euphoric nature. And if I start thinking around that even small things like an associate of the year, a Sustainability Award a number one customer a gold lion statue from the Cannes advertising awards, people take those, and it actually means something, those are the things you talk around the dinner party in a barbecue with the family, you don't talk around meeting a 3%. Net Sales Revenue target every year. And I just really sort of liked that concept. And the more senior you go, you try and convince yourself that no at all results and awards don't matter. Now, don't get me wrong, they're not mutually exclusive. I know that. But those leading indicators will lead to results. And having that balance in there, I think is absolutely key, and Richie McCaw just always had that he always said, I don't worry about the end result. It's around the training and what I do every single day and those leading indicators that will lead to the end result. And as a result, he pulled off some amazing awards as well. So yeah, I have a little bit of that typical men crush with a met. But I think my wife's got the same one normal.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, intrinsic is sustainable. Extrinsic is not sustainable. So anything that evolves as a result of a value, that you uphold something you're going for a purpose, and intention, regardless of the award. The award is the feeling that you're receiving inside as a result of doing something good for other people, whether it's philanthropic, or it's helping an old lady across the street, it doesn't matter what it is, it's doing good for other people, period, you started this show off with relationships, relationships are just the people that you make connections with. And in your chapter, it's not always right to be right, your book, it's not always right to be right. You quote, Gore Vidal, who said, I told you so. And there was a longer statement than that. But it basically said, I told you so. And how many people have said, I told you so after the fact. We've all known leaders like that to be right. And they're not very good listeners. Speak with us about the framework of a compromise and hope and inclusion. You know, as a leader at Mars, I'm sure Mars wanted their leaders to look for compromise, and they wanted to provide you wanted to provide the rest of the people that work with you with hope, and you wanted to hear them, you wanted to include them. You know, and I think today, it gets brushed over way too easily. That people you know, look, I'm a podcaster 900 podcasts, you can't do this many podcasts and not become a good listener. Okay, but so many people are waiting to respond and are not truly listening deeply with heart centered listening, where's the pain? How can I help them through the pain? So what would you say about that?

Hamish Thomson
And I would say it's very much a cliché, but that sort of statement just thinking around. seek to understand before being understood. It is key Beyond that, and from a leaders perspective of outline this a little bit, but you step back, you're the last one to actually speak within a meeting. And if you don't have to speak, you don't have to speak if it's not your idea or your concept, your breakthrough transformation, it doesn't matter at all. If you've unlocked potential with another's, it's a really cool feeling. But you have to have enough confidence to actually do that. And this, I love that Gore Vidal statement, he said, what was it, they said, are the four most important words in the world, I told you so and it's the arrogance, sort of all that, that's typical sort of ego centric sort of CEO. And I sort of outline Greg, my experience, and I think this is probably quite similar. You're almost ingrained from day one to believing to be an effective leader, you have to be right. And I used to every dialogue, discussion debate I'd have with someone, they'd always be a winner and a loser. I was actually okay at it, I generally came out on top, but it was very one off and transactional in nature. And when you started to sort of sit back, you started to reflect was very limiting one, your perspective. And your diversity of thought was incredibly silo and narrow minded. Because if you already knew you're not listening, as you said, you're not opening up your mind to others. Secondly, I started to notice that my biggest breakthroughs and transformation and results came from not one off relationships with people, but stage two and stage three, when there was a dip and a real quality of relationship. Now, when you're always right, you're not going to have a stage two and stage three relationship. You know, that wasn't partnerships at home, if you're consistently right, you're not going to be able to have those deep and meaningful conversations that lead to break through. And then probably the last one that really jumped out to me, you

Greg Voisen
know, what I started for interrupting, but trying to remember the guy that wrote the book, men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. He was on the show. But he said, and you love this statement, you probably heard it, would you rather be right? Or would you rather be in love? It's nice as well, it's nice, because whether you're female, or you're male, or however you're working, you know, in a relationship, or you're on your lesbians, or you're, you know, you're gay. That statement goes across the board with whoever is your lover, you know, and it for people who are always trying to be right, it's a constant challenge, versus giving that up. And you really find that it's not that important to be right. It really isn't. Especially if you want to have love because all you create in a relationship, when you try and always be right,

Hamish Thomson
is fear. You know, it's interesting all night, I think within lockdown, I've probably been told more than a dozen years of being a CEO, about dad or Hamish, it's not always right to me, right. So it is just as personal within there. I think the other thing is, Greg, that when you are right, you limit Unlocking Potential with others. So if your teams or those around you, that don't challenge you that I provoke you, they won't have a debate or a dialogue with you. Because they know they'll always lose. And then they sit back. And it's just inertia. And they don't put in their input, which is, you know, great leaders, and I think exceptional partners and parents, you don't want to nurture within that you want people to actually shine and develop as well. So I think it is, it is really sort of you know, it's key on that. And as a leaders’ job is definitely seek to understand and give your input last. Stop thinking around what are those battles that are just not worth going in, if it is going to compromise a relationship, and a lot of people think compromising is limited. But if you think around the longer term gain the depths and trust of a relationship that you can build, you're actually measure the results of a transaction one on one a lot differently. You're looking at on a longer term basis, that depth where it actually leads to break through as well. The only time that I always think it's appropriate to say yes, definitively I am going to be right within this. If a topic actually crosses your value line, then I think it can actually be compromise. And you have to sort of always the no debate, no excuse mentality. But apart from that, I think everything is open. And that's where Mars and can which I think is still amazing company. They have this concept about a principle called mutuality. And its long term enduring Win with partnerships and suppliers. And a lot of companies do that. But those who live us every day, I think those ones who are generationally relevant as well.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, gentleman on the show the other day, and he has his own company now. But he used to work directly underneath Steve Jobs, and he's bald. And he said to me, and I don't think jokingly, he said, The reason I'm bald is because I work directly for Steve Jobs, I don't have this hair. And he said, three years I worked underneath him, and the expectations were so high, and the stress was so high, you know. And Steve Jobs used to say, when you entered the room, the development room with the developers, a lot of people didn't know this, but they knew he had a big ego. And they knew he was very tough to work for it, right. So everything's been written about him. But when he got behind closed doors, he said, everybody dropped your egos. Because we need the collective power of the fought from everybody in this room to solve this problem. It's not just me, I'm not going to be the only one solving the problem. And I think that's an interesting thing on the outside, when you weren't in those think tanks, he was pretty tough. Inside the think tanks, he was able to let go of that ego and let everybody express themselves and come alive. Now you state that you've always marveled at outstanding marketing, the ability of brands to consistently reinvent themselves and remain generationally relevant is an art form to the hold. You speak with our listeners about the three steps to becoming exceptional. Now this brand can be self-brand, if he Greg Voisen and inside personal growth, that's a brand, right? Also speak with us about our own personal leadership brand.

Hamish Thomson
Yeah, that's, that's alive. As I said, I started out London as a as a very average and pretty crappy copywriter. And fortunately for the British public and viewing public has moved on to count management pretty quickly. But I learned very quickly through a number of years and global sort of marketing heads that are roles. The best form of advertising comes in three words, you've noticed, remembered and understood. And it's in those three elements there in that order, actually, one you got to be noticed you have to actually break through to begin with, and digital format is obviously critical now. So your 30 seconds turns into two or three, you have to instantly recognize recognition, all that, remember does obviously getting associated with your brand, your distinctive assets, a signature processes, and understood just your consistency. So fairly basic format. But what I've actually lacked over the years, is how do you take that brand format and place it within a leadership, leadership development or leadership brand? And there are back row formats and templates to actually do that. So I've probably done this for the last maybe 15 years, use the same branding format that Craig leadership templates for people to actually follow. So what is your leadership capabilities and competencies? What are you incredibly gifted at? Functionally? What is that? Where do you derive your energy from, likewise, what sets you dry within your energy? And the overall premise behind it, Greg is when you are working on something that you're incredibly talented that that equally you're incredibly passionate at, and that meets your values. It's a marriage made in heaven. And over time, when you can be a little bit more selfish. You want to be working on all those things you're passionate around and you're talented at, and how do you surround yourself with other people who can pick up that slack? Nobody can be good at anything, even a general manager and a generalist. But it's a really key way of actually putting your brand in strength across and it is quite liberating. Because you're actually passionate around what you do. And it's quite easy to actually do that. So that's the concept behind it. I'm yet to see even from the Baines McKinsey's BCGs of the world. I'm yet to see a leadership brand template that actually works and as of as effective people.
Greg Voisen
you know, we live in a world that seems to be very sped up, sped up meaning fast. You even mentioned you have to have it within the first two seconds, not the first two minutes. And now I'm going to put a plug in for a gal who works on personal brands. He's been on the show several times. Dorie Clark, Dorie Clark is exceptional, because you know, when you look at how our world is today, and how we are using the internet, to interface with other individuals, and the speed at which this is being done, and the interconnectivity amongst all our relationships, we, we literally have to get that right. And hopefully, we get it right the first time. And I would say to anybody out there, you know, go look at people who work with people who use the internet as their mechanism to connect. And that's everybody, where we're all doing that today. And if there is a strategy and a tactic to it, don't get so tied into that, get tied into being the best you can be. And then let somebody help you do all the rest of the stuff. Now, this book, we you and I could probably talk forever here. But I'm going to tell my listeners, though out, we're going to put a link. It's not always right to be right, go to his website, we'll put a link to the website as well. And I'm going to wrap our interview up with this. The book is loaded with valuable advice from being humble, to learning from your experience. What three takeaways would you like to leave the listeners with from it's not always right to be right, that they could apply in their life as a leader as an individual, just walking away from this podcast and saying, Hey, Hamish, it was great. This is a great book. And I learned three things.

Hamish Thomson
And how, how revolutionary they are, I don't know. But I think the very practical ones are probably the best. So the first one, I'd say just consciously put leadership development to hit a functional development and do it in early stage, you can't do one without the other. But really try and do that, I think as early as possible. The second one, and I think this is within the lesson within life, just put others ahead of yourself, value them their opinions, it'll come back to you it always does in regard to the benefits, benefits on that side. And then the third one, which is probably what we just talked around, Greg, do what you love, right? It's so much easier, life becomes more enjoyable, and your results will actually flow on us. And then even though you haven't asked for it, I'll give you my one famous quote, which I absolutely love at all times. Little cheesy from Mario Andretti. But it's if you're in control, you're not driving fast enough. And I love that there's enough clever cookies around you to put you back on the track at all, but give it a nudge. Life's too short otherwise,

Greg Voisen
so true. I'm doing a book now with mountain climbers climbed all the highest Seven Summits. And I have the blessing the interview, these gentlemen who have climbed Everest 15 times or done the face of El Capitan without ropes, and every extreme athlete will tell you and I found out from this interview, you say well, what's the recurring theme? And exactly what Mario Andretti just said in your comment was, you're not living, you're not living unless you're facing death. And the interesting thing there is, is that many of them are extremely alive on the mountain. And the reason they get so addicted to doing more and more mountain climbs, extreme mountain climbs is because that's what fulfills them is to really push that limit. And like you just said, Mario Andretti said push the limit because someone else will put you in back into control. So do what Thomas said. Push the limit a little bit. Hamish wonderful having you on inside personal growth. taking a minute to speak with my listeners. I so value you the work you're doing. go to his website again. I will repeat it is Hamish h-a-m-i-s-h-t-h-o-m-s-o-n.com. We'll have a link to Amazon to get the book. This is a wildly book. It's wonderfully done. Wonderfully laid out wonderfully designed easy read, not hard. Got a lot of great kind of I want to say charts in it. You know things that you can just pick up on the pages and you can see a whole concept visually on there. So wonderful job in the design. I'm loud I'm your book I know what it takes to create a book I've done a couple of myself so I know it's challenging but you did an excellent job again go get this book. Thank you.

Hamish Thomson
Thank you Greg. Great to be here.

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