I recently had a wondeful interview with the authors of a new book entitled “You Can Change Other People: The Four Steps to Help Your Colleagues, Employees―Even Family―Up Their Game,”  Peter Bregman and Howie Jacobson.

Peter is a best-selling author and the CEO of Bregman Partners while Howie is the Director of Coaching in the same company and the Head Coach at the Healthy Minds Initiative.   

Can you change other people? Yes.  Find out how in this very engaging interview where we  talk about the 4 steps to help change other people and how to use them.  Also listen to the very helpful takeaways that they share in the interview.

To know more about Peter and Howie, please click this link to visit their website.

THE BOOK

In You Can Change Other People, Peter Bregman, the world’s #1 executive coach, and Howie Jacobson, Ph.D., teach you the Four Steps to help the people around you make positive change―even if they’ve been stuck for years. You’ll discover exactly what to say—and what not to say—to disarm people’s defensiveness and increase their confidence to act.

Full of sample scripts and diverse examples that make the process immediately actionable, the authors share a powerful process that until now, has been available only to the world’s top executives.

THE AUTHORS

Peter Bregman’s Bio: Recognized as the #1 executive coach by Leading Global Coaches, Peter Bregman is CEO of Bregman Partners. He leads the Bregman Leadership Coach Training and the Bregman Leadership Intensive, ranked the #1 leadership development program by Global Gurus. He is the bestselling author of 5 books, including Leading with Emotional Courage and 18 Minutes, a Wall Street Journal bestseller.

Howie Jacobson’s Bio: Howie Jacobson, PhD, is Director of Coaching at Bregman Partners and Head Coach at the Healthy Minds Initiative. He is the host of the Plant Yourself podcast, and contributing author of the New York Times bestseller Whole.

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

GREG VOISEN
Welcome back Inside Personal Growth this is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from, where are you Peter? I was basically asking Howie where he was before we got on.

PETER BREGMAN
New York City

GREG VOISEN
Is Peter Bregman and he's the CEO of Bregman partners. And for all of those who want to find out more about Peter, you can just go to Bregman partners b r eg Ma and Pa RT N ers comm to learn more about him, and how he add PhD how he Jacobson is an executive coach to clients, ranging from startup founders to established and raising fortune 100 leaders. He's director of coaching at Bregman partners and head coach at Healthy Minds initiative. Is that the one out of Wisconsin Howie?

HOWIE JACOBSON
That’s in California

GREG VOISEN
California. Okay. All right. Well, I appreciate both of you guys being on and we're going to be talking about their new book, you can change other people before steps to help your colleagues, employees, even family give up their game. This is the book, this is the book that we'll put a link to in our blog. This is where you want to go to pick this book up. You know, change has always been, I remember reading a book and I told you guys this in the pre interview, Immunity to Change they came out of MIT. And you know, people would go to the doctor, and they'd have a challenge. And they they basically had heart issues, right? They were studying them. And they say, Well, you need to change your diet, you need to go exercise, you need to do this. And you guys all know, because, you know, we've had atomic change guy on here, we've had tiny changes guy on here. Changes are tough. And they have to be made incrementally. Why do you guys believe a book about changing other people is so important, and why did you guys decide to publish? You can change other people now? Why? Why the book? Why now? What's your purpose?

HOWIE JACOBSON
Oh, I'll start. Okay. So the genre of change books has largely been about how to change yourself. Right? So you know, atomic habits and tiny habits and all that is, how can I change myself. And those are, you know, I use those books, they're on my on my shelf, they're very, very helpful. What we wanted to do was crew is for those people who are going around, say, like the people around me, I can see how they're self sabotaging. I can see how they're not getting what they want, in the outcomes in their life, in the real in their relationships in their careers. And I can see ways in which I could help them. And yet, when we try to help people, when we give them advice, or we criticize, or all the ways that we think we know how to do it, we actually generate resistance. So like people act, the way that people around them, act like community is probably the most important factor, social pressure, social support really will determine how people will act. So this book is really about how to give everybody the skills to help the people around them as you set up their game to become the best versions of themselves, rather than saying it's each of our responsibility to change on our own. Let's, you know, share the responsibility so that we're helping each other.

GREG VOISEN
Yeah, I get that. And I get that it's a Support Center, especially when you're at work, to have people help you. Peter, do you have anything to add to that? Because obviously, the two of you work together and how he's a coach for your company. You're doing kind of the same thing. And it's, it's a challenging task at best to get people to change but even to support them to change. This isn't this isn't a new topic by any means. So you want to add anything?

PETER BREGMAN
Yeah, I'm sure. A few things. One is, you know, we always talk about wow, you know, change has never been happening so fast. Like we've never experienced a time where change was moving so fast, right? I heard someone express it differently to me. The other day they said, Change will never again, be so slow. Like you will never experience the time in your life when change was happening so slowly as it is now because it is only going faster, right? Like Pete, like changes happening. And so, you know, we we need to change, we need to grow, we need to, you know, I mean, the pandemic disrupted everybody, there's massive changes going on in the world. And, and, and in order to stay kind of connected to each other in order to stay connected to ourselves in order to sort of continue to grow and develop in the ways that we want to. It's, we need to change, I mean, we could have written it five years from now, and it would have been even more important, one of the basic premises of this book is that which I'm sure we're gonna get into, which is that mostly we approach change as a critic and not as an ally, right, we, if I want to change you, I'm going to criticize you, I'm going to tell you what you're doing wrong. And we give you feedback, I might give you constructive criticism, but they're all showing up as me criticizing you and telling you, you have to be better, you have to do something differently. And, and that actually creates resistance to change, what we're saying is be an ally actually shift the dynamic. What I want to say about these books that say change yourself, is even when I am changing myself, when I'm trying to do something like stop eating sugar, I'm trying to be a better communicator, and I'm just doing it for myself individually, the same dynamic happens, which is I am just being a critic of myself, I am telling myself, Peter, you shouldn't have had that ice cream, Peter, you shouldn't have eaten those chocolate chips beforehand. Like you know what's going on with you get better. And, and even when it's projected, certainly, when it's projected onto someone else, it creates resistance to change. What I'm discovering is even when we try to change ourselves, when we act as a critic to ourself, that voice in our head that saying you're not enough, you're not doing it, well, come on, you're better than this. That actually creates a resistance to change also. So what we're talking about relates to any kind of change, which is the first step is you got to be an ally, you got to work with, not against?

GREG VOISEN
Well, as you both know, you know, there are changes that people will make, but it's their decision. There's a difference between making a change, that's my decision, versus making a change that's in a corporate environment that somebody wants to see happen. Would you guys like to comment on that? Because they think that there's more resistance to somebody telling me a corporate to go change something because I'm not doing it right. versus you know, how we look, you're you've got a business where you help people change and become plant based eaters. They're doing that for their health. Frequently, that's a lot easier to do. Because they've made a choice, then they made a decision, right? I mean, if I want to change houses, or buy a new house, that's great, or move across the country, or I'm going to go through a divorce. That's a choice that then I'm making when someone isn't making it for me. But that's a great change.

PETER BREGMAN
yyeah. It's a great, I love it. I love I love what you're saying. And, and and here's the way we sort of talked about in the book, anyone who runs a company is part of a company, anybody who feels like you're in a position to create boundaries, and tell people how they need to change so that they shouldn't change. People will change when they choose to change. So even when you think, even if you're a parent, I'm a parent, I've got three kids, how is the parent, even when I think I have the power, and I tell my kids, they have to do something, I can tell you from firsthand experience, they will find ways to not do it. If they don't want to do that, ultimately, people will change when they choose to change. And what I would say also so by the way, so what that requires is that we have a process, that when we want to align people, when we want to move people in a certain direction, when we want to support them in changing, we better have a process that enables them, that enables our relationship to help them get to a place where they're making their own choices about change. And we can support that, as opposed to us kind of coming off as trying to force them to change. And what I would say is, even with the plant based diet and Howie I would love to get your perspective on this, a lot of people with a plant based diet, you know, I have a cousin, a close friend of mine, someone I'm having dinner with tonight, who just is going plant based. And what he said is I've gotten plant based, because you know I'm well in that 55 to 65 range where my risk of a heart attack is really high. And I really want to make sure that I don't get a heart attack. So is he choosing to be plant based because he's so driven and attracted to it? Or it's his choice but as the choosing because he's afraid of getting a heart attack and he realizes that the consequences of not making that choice might be more drastic. So I think there's so much complexity even when we're making our own decisions. And what we have to do is to create an environment in which people take ownership for and, and allow and make their own choices around change. I'm curious how we whether you agree with that or disagree with that.

HOWIE JACOBSON
Yeah, well, I'm going to jump ahead into our four step process, which we did to the second step, which some of we've never done before. We've never like just picked out a step. But the second step is asking, what's the outcome you're going for. And I find that this is what really aligns people, whether it's our own change, or something we want somebody else to do, is that it has whatever the change is, it has to be aligned with an outcome that's important to the person. So if your friend is like, I want to avoid a heart attack. Like that's we talked about in the book, like that's kind of a negative, like an outcome. That's like what I don't want. Right? Right. So one of the things we try to do is get to an outcome that they do want, what's not an outcome that's positive, clear, and meaningful. So Peter, in conversation tonight, you could probably you know, you might get your friend to say, you know, I want to be a loving presence in my children's and my grandchildren's lives. For the next 20 years, I want to keep going on great vacations with my spouse, I want to keep running my nonprofit and making this difference in the world. Like, the not getting a heart attack is for the sake of what, right, right. And then when the first is like, you know, so let's say the first like, I want to be a positive role model for my kids and my grandkids, then in the moment, when they want to go, they want to eat, you know, a salad, but they're tempted to order the steak, you know, the burger and fries. They can send say, Oh, my goal is to be a positive role model, not just in 20 years, but right now. And that actually can make it easier to maintain the change, when we are focused on the outcome. That's values based,

GREG VOISEN
I think it's a matter of, and how just add to this, it's kind of like feeling forward. Great. In other words, if you're projecting into the future, Peter, what it is you want, whether using visualization, affirmations, whatever it might be, you know, after 15 years of doing personal growth podcasts, you get a pretty good idea from all the books that have come through what works and what doesn't. One of the techniques is, what do you want to feel like, into the future? Right now, it sounds silly, but it's really kind of an interesting concept. You guys skipped one thing. I'm glad that you brought up step two, though, Howie, but you state that when you solve problems for others, now this is whether it's at home, you know, you get your kids, and you say, Okay, this is a way to solve this. Or it's at work. Hey, guys, this is the way to do it. Right? You take away the ownership of those solutions. Right? So now you kind of feel disempowered, because it's like, we didn't let the kid do it. And my wife used to be a school teacher for 23 years, she used to tell the kids love and logic. It was what? Rep what kind of reprimand would you choose for yourself? And they always chose the worst one than what she would choose if they were bad, right? And so why is inclusion so important? And why is creating a plan? So imperative, because that's one of your steps, that's the fourth step in your four step process.

PETER BREGMAN
So, you know, maybe it makes sense to put this in the context of the four steps, right?

GREG VOISEN
So the, there are very simple steps.

PETER BREGMAN
They’re simple, right? So the first step is shifting from critic to ally, right, which is, instead of approaching this with, I'm frustrated, I'm angry, find the place where you know, if you're frustrated or angry about something you really want someone to change. There's underlying that if you ask sort of why you're angry, or frustrated, it's probably coming out of a place of care or love or support. Right that if I'm, you know, if I'm frustrated that, you know, we were talking about the way someone's eating, you know, that's because I care about them, right? If I if I'm annoyed about how someone's communicating might be because I care deeply about the outcome that we're trying to achieve together collectively as a group, or I want them I'm wanting to support them in their career. And so so to find that place where, where we actually want to help them succeed. And by the way, even if you can't find that, realizing that if they're in your way, helping them to be more successful and how they approach things will probably not be in your way, right like that, that if they're communicating really aggressively. You know, if you help them to communicate more effectively, that's probably going to be supportive of everybody. So finding that place where you really want to support them and then you ask their permission, right? You say we have a formula for this, which is empathize. express confidence and ask permission. Which is to say like, you know, I understand you're struggling to be heard in the meeting. And I can see how frustrating that is. And I've seen you being very, very effective in how you communicate, would you be willing to think about it with me or talk about it together? Right? So you get them to say, yes, that's the first step where they're going to get they have choice, right? They could say, No, I've done this with people. And they say, No, oftentimes, when I accept their No, they'll come back to me, because they know they're in control, and they have power. Second step is the outcome, which is what is it that I really want to achieve how he described that beautifully, you're going from a frustrating problem to an energizing outcome that you're looking forward to like for the sake of what the third step is opportunity, which is to sort of find the opportunity in the problem often, that allows you to achieve the outcome that helps you to achieve the outcome. And and then finally, a plan because you can have great conversations and this is the question that you're asking, Why is this plant, so important, you can have great conversations that bring massive insights and mind blowing discoveries, and then go back and just do the same thing you were doing beforehand, right? Because there's a massive gap between what we know and what we do, the way we think of this work, is getting massive traction on what's most important to people helping them to get massive traction, what's most important to them. And so the traction part, the translating into action becomes really important and really critical. And so that happens in a plan. And the plan, by the way, it doesn't have to work, it just has to be followed through on. That's one of the discoveries that have been made, which is what's most important is forward momentum. If you're worried about having the perfect plan, you probably won't move forward. If you act like a scientist and say I'm going to try some stuff, I'm 100% confident this is what we call, you know, a level 10 plan a one to 10, I'm a 10. On following through that I'm going to follow through on this plan, and I'm 100% covered, I'm going to follow through, I don't know if it's gonna work, but I think it's got a pretty good shot, let's explore it, we're gonna learn something, and then we'll figure out what the next step is. So those are the four steps and it's why each step is important.

GREG VOISEN
I think your four step program is very simple and very effective for people to basically implement, right. And how we, if you would speak about something that's called the opportunity step in action, I pulled that out of the book. And it's built around three lines of inquiry. And I thought those lines of inquiry were really important, because that is an important way to get to that to get to the opportunity. So we you share the lines of inquiry and why this helps people accept change more easily.

HOWIE JACOBSON
Sure, so we've just gotten to this outcome, so the person's kind of excited about it. And now we still have to face reality. So reality is there is a situation there is a problem of struggle and obstacle. So then we return to the problem, but with the outcome in mind framed by the outcome, so we're not just because we just started with the with the problem. Okay, Gary, I have your permission. Now, let's talk about, you know, why you're interrupting in meetings, or why you keep eating sugar, or why you're having burgers and fries all the time, where they've already thought about it, right? Whatever we struggle with, we tend to to ruminate over some, but now that we have the outcome in mind, we can then return to the problem and say, so tell me what's happening now? What's going on? What does it look like? And we ask for sort of very specific examples. And like, Take me there, let me be a fly on the wall. So the person isn't just regurgitating a generalized story, but they're actually reciting facts and details that very often can start to undermine their story, the story that's been keeping them stuck. After that the second line of inquiry is, so what have you tried? And we asked this for two reasons. One is they may have tried things in the past that worked, right? We all we all have done things that worked, and we just stopped doing them. Who knows why, like, we got bored, we went on vacation. And when we came back, our schedule was was interrupted or something. But but we often have good strategies from our past. The second is, we want to get everything out of out on the table. So we don't start thinking about suggesting things that they've already tried and failed, like, right? Because then you know, Hey, have you tried this? Or what about this? Have you tried that we lose a lot of credibility. You know, if they start saying, Yeah, I've tried all that stuff. So we we want them to tell us what they've tried. And very often, they'll get to a kind of creative dead end. Like they realized everything I've been doing so far hasn't worked. So now they're open to a new approach, rather than continuing to double down on the things that they've been doing in the past that didn't work. And once we have those two, we then say, so where's it Where's an opportunity here. And sometimes we can ask it, but we often we can suggest it, we can notice things. Right? So if the opportunity for Peters friends is, you know, he wants to be plant based, but he keeps getting tempted by other foods to take you to say, well, the opportunity in that moment to achieve the outcome I want, which is to be a great role model is to be a great role model right now, as I make a choice in for my long term interests, as opposed to my short term interest, which is presumably something as parents, we want to teach our kids to delay gratification for fun, you know, so they can get the two marshmallows, rather than, rather than just the one. So and these opportunities can take a bunch of different forms, we have sort of four or five different categories that are very, very common, like the opportunity, there's always always an opportunity for emotional courage, which I hope I hope Peter is going to talk about in some length, there's almost no, there's an opportunity to look at the problem as a symptom of an underlying system that you can improve, there's often an opportunity for in this moment to increase capability, generally, to handle this problem. So there's, you know, there's a bunch of different ones that we highlight, and most most, that we've seen fall in one of these, but it really is the point at which we explore with the other person and say, okay, given your outcome you want, given this problem? How can we use the situation that we find ourselves in, to move forward to what you want?

GREG VOISEN
Well, Ithink your four simple steps are very helpful in both family, you say in the book that this can be used for families can be used in corporate world can be used almost anywhere, and you guys used stories throughout examples? Uh, two people, I think it was Steven and Octavia. Is that right? If I remember correct, but I would like to get to this distraction. We talked about it a second ago. But you mentioned that it's easy to get distracted from the objectives. And I think that wasn't Peter, when things get hard or complicated or a little confusing, or distractions are tempting that we said the distractions, can you speak about the different kinds of distractions, and how to become distraction proof, we're in a world that's always on, we have cell phones, we've got our computers, we're getting notifications, we get texts, we get bombarded in every different way. And it's it's very difficult to not get distracted.

PETER BREGMAN
Distraction, the you're talking about, which is that you know, you know, I the probably the most maybe not the most famous but the the article that at the moment got the most attention that I've written was when I had just came out this is I mean, I guess now 10, 11 years ago, and I wrote I bought an iPad, and I returned it. And and I wrote an article about why returned it, which is that I have lost all my moments of boredom, which actually feel important, it feels important for us to get bored, and the newspaper was man returns the iPad in favor of boredom. And it but you know, it's like, you know, like, oh, well, he's so excited about being bored. But there's another kind of distraction, which is the kinds of distractions in in the conversation around change. You're trying to help people change, right, you're trying to help someone change. And some of it's hard how we mentioned the emotional courage is, you know, there's all if we're, there's a lot of, we're going to feel a lot of things when we start doing things differently, when we know there's a risk if I'm going to start to act differently with other people, if I'm going to communicate differently, if I'm going to eat differently, if I'm going to any of this stuff. I'm gonna feel stuff, right. I mean, to just use those two examples that we've been using, throughout the interview, don't indulge feelings, we dismiss them. That's the thing about feeling the drivers to act, when when I'm driven to act by a feeling the reason i i follow through and that action isn't because I'm fulfilling the need of the feeling increasing our emotional cards, our willingness to feel things makes it very, is very necessary in terms of our following through on on actions that can be difficult, but there's all kinds of distractions that happen when you're in a conversation with someone and you're looking for opportunities and they'll do something like blame other people. Or they'll say like I might say, you know, the reason we'll keep the sugar thing going, how he The reason I eat and let's see how he does with all these Zhi Ling give you let me give you what we would call distractions, Howie how the reason I eat ice cream I was asking is because my wife buys all of this ice cream and she buys and then when it's on sale, so buy like 10 pints of It'll all be in the freezer. And it's, you know, like, how am I supposed to resist it when there's some fights. Plus I buy frozen vegetables, but there's no place to put the frozen vegetables in the fridge unless I eat the ice cream and make space for the frozen vegetables. So it's not my fault. Really?

GREG VOISEN
I like your analogy, Peter. So let's see what how he says.

HOWIE JACOBSON
Yeah, so I would, I would at that point, I'm feeling a lot of sort of defensiveness and resistance. So my, my, my knee jerk reaction is to fight back is to, first of all to say like, do you hear yourself? How ridiculous is it you're going to eat? You have to go through the ice cream to get to the vegetables, essentially, or have a conversation with your wife for God's sake. But like, like, like, I'm feeling that. But instead, I don't I don't want to. I don't want to be oppositional. So I'm just going to remind Peter. So, Peter, tell me what you'd like your relationship to ice cream today? Remind me what do you want? Right? Because I want I want Peter to, I want Peter to just to take his side rather than me having to do some sort of martial arts here yet,

PETER BREGMAN
The most useful thing to do is exactly what how we did, which is ignore the distractions. There's so many things, here's another distraction that gets that gets people all the time. Why do I do that? Why do I always eat the ice cream instead of the vegetables? I want to really understand what's underlying my struggle with this, let's, let's spend the next six conversations trying to figure out why I do this. Right? To which Howie responds?

HOWIE JACOBSON
Well, um, we, you know, that's a fascinating question, Peter. But I want to kind of come back to like, what would you like to do instead?

PETER BREGMAN
Yeah, we could speak forever and unpack why, but it's a distraction to the actual move that I need to make, which is to not eat the ice cream. And we think if we understand why, and if we really unpack that, and maybe I go back to the fact that as I was a kid, my mother never let me have sweets, except on special occasions. And so we never had in the house and I'm deprived, right. And in the end, I'm still going to be looking at a fridge with ice cream going. Hmmm….tasty.

HOWI JACOBSON
right. Something I sometimes do when people really are fixated on getting insight is asking them like if you had that insight, what would you be doing differently?

GREG VOISEN
Yeah, well, that brings me to actually, there's a great question right around this that I came up with and you state the move from insight to traction and requires a plan. That is the fourth step. Right? How do we create a plan that has a reasonable chance of success? Because you said the plans could fail? I heard you guys earlier, as long as there's a plan, but the plan could fail. Let's say it didn't work. Well. Let's say in your example, you created the plan, and you ate the ice cream. Anyway, it failed. But you add ice cream, but you had a plan. Right? So your plan was to dig below and find the vegetables but instead, you went ahead and ate the ice cream and you found the vegetables later.

PETER BREGMAN
I know it sounds like it's my fault. It's not my fault, it’s my wife’s fault

GREG VOISEN
She put all that ice cream in there. That was so extreme and the Fred's there was no room for all that cheap Ben and Jerry's in there. So so if you guys would from insight detraction, right, I mean, yeah, I can have an insight. That's what you just said, and an insight, I shouldn't need the ice cream. Traction is don't eat the ice cream, eat the vegetables. That's a successful plan, because that's what you want to have happen. So how do you what do you do to make a reasonable chance of success? I have a plan.
How are you?

HOWIE JACOBSON
Okay, no, I'll start. Well, I mean, the first thing you do is, you know, presumably, both of you are bright.

GREG VOISEN
Remove the ice cream, take the ice cream out and throw it away.

HOWIE JACOBSON
Well, maybe I mean, that's, that's the that's one of the questions like a great way to not eat ice cream.

PETER BREGMAN
It might not be a great way to stay married.

HOWIE JACOBSON
Yeah, right. So you can you can say, Do you want to be the sort of person who never eats ice cream as long as you're not in the presence of ice cream? Right, like we could, you know, like, what's the saying you can you can carpet the world or you can wear shoes, right? So, you know, it might be a great idea for a month to do He talks. And then the client, the the plan might be a conversation with Peters life or, you know, by by a dorm fridge with a freezer for her office where she can have all the ice cream. She was like, there's, there's infinite number of ways we could go with the plan. But then we're looking for like, what's the outcome you want? You know, again, who's the sort of person you want to be? And and in that moment, so there's a moment where you're either going to go left or right, you're gonna have the ice cream or the vegetables. So what can we do around that moment? To increase the odds? And then when Peter tries something, and it fails, he comes back with new information and say, Okay, well, this, this didn't work. But you know what, I had this feeling I had this thought in my head at that moment, and it was a new thought it wasn't one that I had recognized before. And it convinced me, so now he Oh, great. So now, like, do you agree with that thought? Do you want to change your thoughts? Or do you want to change your plan, you know, your, your, the outcome you want, and then we then we can work on it from there. So it becomes very iterative, which is a relief, because none of us is smart enough to know what's going to work.

PETER BREGMAN
And, you know, let me add something to that how we, which is, first of all, I feel like I need to say this for anyone who's listening. I'm the one who bought the 10 pints of ice cream, not my wife, I did it because it was on sale. And it was you know, it was her favorite ice cream. So I was being a good husband. But I'm the one who said, Oh, wow, $2.50 for a pint of Haagen DAAS, we should buy out the store. So that I'm just I just want to own that, you know, I'm no wonder to that. And we can so totally unpack that. But here's the most important thing about a plan, that it comes from the person who's making the change. So if you're helping someone change, and you're throwing out all these brilliant ideas, it's not going to work. If they are throwing out ideas, it doesn't matter whether they're brilliant, right? All it matters is that they're the ones throwing them out, they will have ownership over the ideas that they come up with, they will follow them through and they will learn from them. And they are much more likely to succeed. So the most important thing in terms of a plan that is going to be followed through on is that they say, Hey, I could try this or I could now you could offer ideas, but very tentatively, right? So have you thought about this? Or what about that? Or do you think that might work or what probably wouldn't work about this, you know, you could sort of unpack it and be in conversation with them about it. But people follow through on the ideas that they come up with themselves. So that's a really important thing.

GREG VOISEN
I think that's the most important thing to accentuate here is that when they take ownership, they're going to succeed. If it's my good idea, nine cases out of 10, it's not if you have older children like I do, and you and you counsel them, you want them to come up with the solution, not you. Otherwise, if you say this is the way you should do it, there's going to be resistance, I've had it happen all the time. And I have a younger son that I go through that with. So the examples that you're giving are great examples. But if if people took away just that, that if you were going to counsel your kids, or you're going to counsel somebody at work, let them create the plan and the solution. You're just there as a guide. You're there to help them but you're not to put what they want to call, you might make suggestions, hey, you might want to do it this way. But it isn't, you want them to make the decision.
Right?

PETER BREGMAN
100% and, and that there is still a role for you, you are critical in the process. I've tried to use this process on myself and I fail, because I need someone we need each other. We need each other to bounce ideas off of we need each other to ask the right kinds of questions. We need each other to make suggestions. But so often, when we step in, we step in as the boss guy, right? The boss man, the boss woman, we step in in that way. And that's a way that ends up being ineffective. So there is a very important role for us, but it is not as director of the ship. Yeah, it's the guy.

GREG VOISEN
It's like when the CEO steps in the room with his ego and tells everybody the way it's got to be you know that, you know, we've been having a meeting and he's 15 minutes late, and then he comes in he hasn't heard what's going on. And he goes well, but this is the way it's got to be guys. That doesn't really go over you don't get you get a lot of resistance, right. So the shift I just want to tell for my listeners. The four steps are shifting credit to ally identify an energizing outcome, find a hidden opportunity and create a level 10 plan. Those are your four steps now, for both of you. And we'll start with Howie, because he hasn't said much lately, if you were to leave the listeners with three things that could implement for themselves and their teams that would make change something that people would not resist, but embrace. What would you tell him? What would you tell our listeners is a takeaway? Howie?

HOWIE JACOBSON
Yeah, so I would say the first thing is to work on yourself. So before you try to change someone else recognize if you want to change them, because you're frustrated, because you're angry, because, you know, because there's some there's some negative emotion that has been driving you to want them to change, like, Ah, right. So first, before you just implement the four steps, work on your self so that your intentions are positive. So which means what is my positive intent behind wanting them to change? What do I want for them? What do I want for myself? What do I want for the world and become generous with yourself? Like, yeah, I, I may have these negative emotions, I may feel angry and frustrated and sad or whatever. But it come, it's coming from a good place. And then take that energy and practice it on them. What's that person trying to accomplish? Even though they're doing it poorly, even though they're interrupting in the meetings, they're still trying to have an impact. They're trying to prevent problems from arising they're trying to do to express due diligence. If they're eating sugar, they want to feel good in the moment, they want to have more energy, they want to be connected to the people in their lives, who are also eating sugar. Right? So a generosity of spirit. And then the third thing I would say is, start relentlessly focusing on asking about outcomes before you get into the problem.
Good advice. And Peter, off to the same question, what what would you like to leave the listeners with we've talked about your four step process, we've talked about opportunity, we've talked about all the process, and again, for my listeners, here's the book, you can change other people. And these gentlemen are doing it successfully with their four step process.

GREG VOISEN
Peter, what would you actually tell the listeners to take away

PETER BREGMAN
I think my Three Things would be stop tolerating people's weaknesses, tell them what they're doing wrong, and raise your voice and get angry at them. And that that usually, you know, ends up how's that working for you? Okay, so No, those are not the things that I was.

HOWIE JACOBSON
Just, I was I was scribbling notes, man, it's like, another book.

PETER BREGMAN
Exactly. Um, you know, I think, first of all, I love how these three things, so I could I could just sit with how many things but I'll throw out a few.

GREG VOISEN
Now we're going to get six.

PETER BREGMAN
A few. Yeah, exactly. Um, you know, the first thing I would do, and this is sort of a method that helps putting the kind of how your approach like what how he's talking about very much is like, how do you approach as an ally, not as a critic, I think the first thing I would do is put everything in perspective. Like, whatever is happening, whatever change, like, when we feel desperate, we end up acting poorly, almost always. So take some steps back and say, you know, what, if this never changed, it would probably be okay. But if I recognize that I don't have the power here that any kind of control I have, is an illusion of control, but not actual control, then I can soften, I want to help them, but it's them, it's theirs. And even if this is really hard, even if it's my child, and they're doing something that is unhealthy for them, like in the end, I do not have control over that. I can help I can support but I don't. So recognizing that. Take a breath, slow down. Right. That's the first thing. And then the second thing is to say is to ask yourself, what role can I play in support of this person? Right, like, what role can I play? Like, what can I do? I can ask them questions. I realizing the rules that we've said people don't resist change, they resist being changed, ownership has to stay there. They need to build their emotional courage. Like, you know, what, what role can I play? What question Can I ask? And then the third, which is going to seem incredibly self-interested, but it is the reason that we wrote the book is you don't trust yourself to do this without some kind of a structure and some kind of a process. I mean, we wrote the book in order to to offer this structure in the process, but I know from myself, when I am not following a story. Yes. You know, like Halloween, I created this, we wrote it, I've been teaching it for decades. If I don't intentionally, really follow the process. If I don't say step one, step two, step three, step four, even after decades of doing this, if I don't intentionally follow the process, I will fall into habits that inevitably create resistance to change as opposed to support it. So, you know, that's, to me, the most important thing is, you know, follow a process that gets you reliable results. And, and be transparent and follow it.

GREG VOISEN
Well, I think the two of you have given our listeners a lot of wisdom and thoughts to think about change, and the fact that we can change other people. And I think the four step process that you gave, is really quite good. I think that, uh, you know, all you got to do is ask a manager that's listening to this podcast right now. How is the current way you're trying to get employees changing working for you? Okay, because you'll probably find out that it's not working real well, because they've used the same old thing. In that business, we used to say, is it the carrot or the stick? This one happens to be the carrot, not the stick. And for those of you who would like another carrot, it's going to work. This one will work, go out and get the book, we'll put a link to Amazon. Do you also have a book website or just is it Peter Bregman or Bregman partners.com? Or is there a book website?

PETER BREGMAN
No, the book website is on Bregmanpartners.com. So if you go to b-r-e-g –m-n-p-a-r-n-e-r-s, and there's a book, another topic on resources and bucket and the books on the top,

GREG VOISEN
But you don't have you don't have a separate book site for now. Okay. Okay. No. So we will put that link for our listeners. Thank you both for being on and joining me today on insight, personal growth and sharing your insights about how to change other people. Obviously, you both have lots of experience doing this. How we with your background, and getting people to go plant based, obviously you use these techniques as well. And, Peter, through your job as a consultant working in big companies, getting people to change. You've obviously been quite successful at that. Thank you both for being on insight, personal growth and spending some time with us talking about your new book. You can change other people.

PETER BREGMAN
Thanks, you Greg, such a pleasure.

HOWIE JACOBSON
Thank you.

powered by

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I recently had the pleasure of interviewing Jeff Griswold recently. Jeff is the CEO of Effective Learning Systems and the Creator of The Wise Guide App.

In this interview, we speak about The Wise Guide App, an application that can be downloaded in different formats to help improve lives by listening.

The WiseGuide App contains hundreds of powerful, guided audio programs employing time-tested techniques to achieve proven positive changes. According to Jeff, “everything we do, every feeling we have, every behavior we exhibit, every habit we have comes from a thought inside your mind.”  Find out how to identify negative thinking and replace it with productive, healthy thought habits.

If you want to learn more about Jeff Griswold and his programs, please click here to visit his website.  You may also click on this link to get a special discount when you subscribe to “The Wise Guide App.”

I hope you enjoy this informative interview with Jeff Griswold.

THE APPLICATION  –  The App for Gaining Confidence, Finding Happiness and Achieving Success

The WiseGuide App puts the entire library of Effective Learning Systems’ programs at your fingertips. As the leader in the development of human potential, Effective Learning Systems programs have been the best selling and highest rated self-improvement tools for decades.They employ the most powerful techniques for life-changing impact including: mindfulness meditation, breathing techniques, guided imagery, positive emotions, affirmations, and more.

The WiseGuide App takes the wonderful benefits of meditation to the next level. Our goal-oriented programming is prescriptively applied to address your specific needs. Lose weight, stop smoking, conquer fears, and more! We call it Productive Meditation™ All you have to do is…just listen!

THE CREATOR – JEFF GRISWOLD

Entrepreneurial executive, former McKinsey consultant and mechanical engineer with over 17 years of experience in educational technology and publishing industries with special expertise in the personal development, self-help, and publishing markets. Strong record of success leading extremely fast growing start-up organizations and managing business units in educational technology and publishing industries while consistently exceeding targeted performance. Proven ability to establish and manage productive strategic 3rd party relationships including identifying target partners, negotiating business relationships and contract terms, and implementing alliance partner programs. Superior leadership skills with demonstrated ability to develop and motivate teams to deliver maximum performance.

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Minneapolis. Well, you're near Minneapolis. Is that right, Jeff?

Jeff Griswold
Right next to Minneapolis.

Greg Voisen
Okay, yeah. And I have Jeff Griswold on the air with me and their company. Wise guide. Really, it's called effective learning. Right?

Jeff Griswold
Yeah, Effective Learning Systems is the company. Yeah, app is The Wise Guide App. Right.

Greg Voisen
So the parent company behind it. And they have an application that from the standpoint of personal growth really has many different modules and categories. We're going to talk about the love capes. We're going to talk a little bit about his father. But I want to give a little bit background about Jeff, Jeff obviously, is now the CEO of the company, and you're running it. And the application has improved tremendously. Under Jeff's wing of doing this. Jeff, basically he has a background, he has got an MBA in business administration or business. He was with McKinsey. He had an interesting upbringing with his father because his father had such a love and a passion for this and the love tapes. And this has been around for how long now? Jeff? What's that? When did your dad start this?

Jeff Griswold
1971

Greg Voisen
Okay, so it's been around for many, many years. Yep. For all those of you listening, and are seeing us on a zoom call, and are on YouTube. This basically is audio format that's in an application that you can get at iOS, and Android. And we're going to let Jeff explain exactly how its improved millions of lives. When you go to the website, you'll see that the statement there is that they've improved millions of lives. So they have meditations, they've got all kinds of programs going on, to get more focus, to have more clarity, less stress, less worry, to love better, to sleep better, to train better, listen, better, eat better, more confidence, weight loss, be free. So there are lots of modules, let's put it that way that you can subscribe to and we're going to talk about that. Also there you can learn more about how it works, the pricing the program, and so on. So Jeff, tell us a little bit about you know, your history. Your father started this. And you had your own career. You were doing something else. And obviously, this attracted you enough to come back in and help dad pull it up by the bootstraps and modernize it, and polish it up and make it better. What compelled you so much to want to do that versus staying in your own career that you had at McKinsey?

Jeff Griswold
Well, I think it all goes back to my upbringing. So it was a fairly unremarkable upbringing and suburban Minneapolis. You know, nice house, nice neighborhood, good schools. All that. What was remarkable about it was, what my father was doing at the time. And what I saw growing up, he was a pioneer in the development of personal growth. And so I had the opportunity as a kid to meet some amazing people like Norman Cousins Buckminster Fuller, Wayne Dyer. And, and got exposed to me I was doing and learning about meditation and, and mind development at a very young age. And I saw how much of a personal impact what my father was doing had on his students. You know, we didn't have daycare back then. And he would teach these programs over weekends. So going to his classes was my daycare.

Greg Voisen
So your mom, your mom was involved as well. Right?

Jeff Griswold
Mom was involved as well. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, he developed these fantastic techniques that he was teaching to people, and really changing their lives. And so that was just part of my DNA growing up.

Greg Voisen
And did it start with the love tapes?

Jeff Griswold
No, it started with the, the workshops that he would teach over the weekends, okay, people, people would come in, you know, maybe like 35 people in a room for on a Saturday and a Sunday about eight hours each day. And he would teach them the techniques, he would guide them through these meditations, the visualizations, the affirmations, the things that would help them change the way their inner mind works, to create a better life for themselves. And, and that problems,

Greg Voisen
and that is the elixir for this program. Right? In other words, he has a methodology, which is used for years, which includes visualizations, affirmations, all kinds of things. But explain a little bit about that. Do you have the secret formula that dad has left with you? That yes, has helped people change their lives? And if you can, I would say share it with the listeners, what is the process that really significantly has made an impact on a million people's lives.

Jeff Griswold
So the main thing you have to understand is that everything that we do every feeling we have every behavior, we exhibit, every habit we have, comes from a thought inside your mind, typically a subconscious thought, right? Right. I mean, think about the difference between somebody who just can't seem to get themselves off the couch, and just, you know, hangs around watching TV all day versus somebody who just, I need to get up and do something to go work out, I need to, you know, go work on this site business or something like that, um, you know, a bunch of different examples you can give of people with different habits, different behaviors, and the only difference is the way their mind works, their subconscious thinking. And we developed our subconscious thinking our inner thought habits through a lifetime of experience. Unfortunately, a lot of that experience is negative, right? A lot of us grow up with, you know, negative thoughts being given to us over and over again. And as we're young, we accept those things. So a lot of people believe things about themselves, negative things about themselves, that limit their potential, right? Oh, I'm, I'm no good at this. Or I'll never be that. And you accept those things. So when an opportunity comes up to do this, or be that you don't take it? Because what that's not me. Right. So and that applies to so many areas of our lives, whether it's relationships, whether it's fitness, whether it's your attitude towards money, being successful.

Greg Voisen
Weight loss…

Jeff Griswold
Weight loss..yeah..

Greg Voisen
So what is the so if the secret elixir is, you know, these audio programs, right? With, I'm not going to say subliminal messaging, but the reality is a lot of people will use subliminal messaging in those kinds of programs. Is your program to designed in other words to kind of work at a level on the subconscious, so that people reprogram it, or put new RAM in, as we say, right, but when our computers get too clogged up, you know, there isn't enough RAM, we can only do so much. Maybe it's about clearing out all that stuff, right?

Jeff Griswold
Yeah, I think you just said it very, very well, because, you know, your mind isn't a computer, but it operates a lot like one, right? And there's that old phrase in computer programming garbage in, garbage out, right. If you program yourself garbage, you're not going to be successful in whatever you do. Right. Um, so. Yeah, so the key is, number one, identifying that negative Thinking. So you can see in yourself, it's like, boy, you know, I sabotage my relationships or I talk myself out of opportunities that may have been something good for me. So identifying that negative thinking, but then replace it with productive, healthy thought habits. And that's what the programs do. The programs guide you through the process. Like one of our, one of our taglines is just listen, right, because all you have to do is listen to you get these programs, you find a program that you want to work on, whether it is weight loss, whether it is productivity, whether it's overcoming procrastination, or we're doing better in business or getting a good job,

Greg Voisen
Worry…anxiety

Jeff Griswold
Worry, anxiety. And all you got to do is put that on and listen, listen once a day for 30 days, and you are well on your way to reprogramming your inner thought habits to be much more healthy, positive and productive.

Greg Voisen
You know, the content and that your dad's put together and you have on these programs. Explain how the app works. It's obviously an iOS app. It's an Android app. People can get it at either one of those stores. Correct? Yeah, yeah. And download it. And then once they download it, you have a free trial period, correct?

Jeff Griswold
Yeah. Well, it starts out it's free itself. You could just get the app and have it for free. And there is content available to you for free on the apps.

Greg Voisen
And but not all the content?

Jeff Griswold
Not all the content. Exactly.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Because there's a lot of content, how many programs are there Jeff, what is the library? How big is it?

Jeff Griswold
It's, it's over 120 I can't over 120, I should probably have an exact count. Right, but I think it's 122 or something like that. Okay, um, but yeah, over 120 different titles. And in in a, you know, several different categories, whether it is, you know, health and fitness, worry, anxiety, productivity, you know, weight loss, things like that. So, we have a bunch of different categories, a lot of different programs. And so what I tell people when they're interested in the app, download the app for free. start browsing around, look in the different categories, see what titles seem interesting to you. And then I always suggest start a subscription. And you'll have a seven-day free trial, you're not even charged for seven days, that gives you full access to all the programs. And use those seven days to listen, every once in a while, go through the programs, find out the ones that you want. And then you'll have a choice at the end of seven days, you can do one of three things, just cancel the subscription, never get charged anything. And just stick with whatever which is free on the app to if there's like two or three programs that you think these are the ones that are going to change my life and I want to focus on, you can just purchase an individual title, and you'll have access to that title forever. Right. So just a onetime charge forever.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, it comes up for me as you were talking about habits earlier, and I know how important changing habits are. And we've had the gentleman from atomic habits on here. And Tiny habits, which is the gentleman from Stanford, send all the research on habit change. And every time the consistent message between tiny habits and Atomic habits is really small, incremental steps. Tell us if you would, how this program wise guide and the application could help somebody make these small incremental steps in reprogramming so that it becomes now part of their DNA, it becomes a new part of them. It's how I wake up in the morning, it's how I'm inspired. It's how I lose weight. It's how I find love. It's, it's all of those things wrapped into these many 122 programs. Yeah,

Jeff Griswold
Yeah. So as far as small incremental steps, um, I guess a couple different ways of thinking about it. Number one, is if you if you look at the 120, some titles that we have, you know, you can get overwhelmed. It's like, Boy, I've got anxiety, and I'd like to lose some weight, and I really could get a better job. And so all these titles, boy, I can listen to all of them. they'd all helped me. So just start out with a couple. Right? I'm just focused on one. The other part of making small steps is that, you know, it's not a listen to this once and you're done. Like, you know, you can read a self-help book, right? Right, read it, I'm done. You know, you may never incorporate those habits in your life, even though you know, you enjoyed it a lot. This thing is a, do it every day, just for a little time, every day, just listen, every day. And slowly, your habits will change, your attitudes will change, your inner thinking will change. So again, it's just incremental, day to day, keep getting better and better. As we say,

Greg Voisen
I think one of the things that you have at the website is focus. And many times it's been said, if you have focus and curiosity, you can find three passions. If you can link those three passions together, you can develop a purpose if you can develop a purpose, and you can then write goals. And then you can have the grit and determination. Now, whether or not that's the right string. The important part is focus. And I think you have that at the website for a reason. And it's actually at the top of the little man with the bread with the with the brain. And I think what your program would do, honestly, is help people focus. It's like anything. Like we get notifications, we get reminders on our computers, we have bells and whistles go off on our phones, we're always being reminded to do something. Does the app has the app Incorporated? Some of those features as reminders to actually open up? And listen? What is the methodology that the listeners might see?

Jeff Griswold
Oh, for the app itself? Yeah. So um, it has a feature in there where you set a reminder for when you want to listen to a program. And so that's, that's up to you, it's the app doesn't drive it, it's not going to, it's not going to tell you to do anything that you didn't tell the app to tell you to do.

Greg Voisen
But you can program it to remind you.

Jeff Griswold
Yes, yeah, there's a reminder feature in there. Um, and so. Yeah. So that helps you realize you when you talk about focus, though, the program's themselves. Um, so let me explain, there are a few different types of programs that we have, because we want to help people work on improving themselves anytime they can. Right. So one of our main collections of programs are meditative, right. So they're designed to be used when you have a chance to relax, close your eyes. And listen for a while and focus on guided meditations, it's a guided meditation for about 25 minutes. These are perfect for when you first wake up in the morning, or when you're going to bed at night. Or if you have a chance during the day to take a break from the hecticness. You know, turn off your alerts and things like that. And just, you know, take, go through the breathing exercises, go through the visualizations, and recharge your batteries. But we also have programs that are designed specifically to use while you drive. So if you're commuting a lot, you spend a lot of time in the car, you can listen these things while you drive, they're not telling you to close your eyes and relax, obviously. But they deliver the messages to help you change the way you think. And the way you see yourself and, and help you achieve your goals.

Greg Voisen
Well, look, we all know that people have an opportunity. Obviously, most people on my show are authors, but you are author, you and your father are authors. You're just authors of audio content. If you go to Audible, you know, and people do books. A lot of people want to listen to books. Now. A lot of people want to basically listen to podcasts. I mean, let's face it, it's like the one of the biggest industries around. So the point is, is that you can get this material in the format that you want it now, one of the things that I think is important is that you cover so many different topics, right? From love, to concentration, to focused anxiety to whatever it is. And these meditations are designed to reprogram the mind to actually help you look at this in a whole new light in a whole new way. That's what a guide is. Meditation we do, are you actually also helping people with while they're doing those meditations, any kind of mantra or, or statement that they're creating for themselves? That's the creating a new life for them?

Jeff Griswold
Kind of, kind of, but that's up to the individual. Right. So one of the things in all of our programs, all of our programs have affirmations, right. So that's part of it, when you're you get into that deep, relaxed state of mind where your mind is much more open to change. And we deliver the affirmations in two different ways. One is first person and one is third person. Because psychologically, those have different effects. And using them together is tremendous. But we say, as you listen the affirmations, find, you know, one or two that works specifically, or particularly well for you, write them down and save them to yourselves to yourself, even when you're not listening to the program. And I know like, there's one that I still use today, because I have a, I never needed to really lose weight. But I knew I had some bad eating habits. And one of my bad eating habits was something I clearly was programmed with. Driving down the road, I see the golden arches and McDonald's I want french fries. Yeah, this reflex. Yeah. So one of the one of the one of the affirmations in tickets are while you drive achieve your ideal weight program, is I choose to eat healthy foods. Just as simple I choose to eat healthy foods. And I realized, you know what, that's actually really powerful for me. And when I get in a situation like that, where I find myself having that reflex of doing something, I know is not good for me. I just say that to myself, I choose to eat healthy foods, right. And suddenly, it's like, Wait, that's not a healthy food, I don't choose that. And so it kind of empowers me to, to reject a habit, a reflex that I don't want. And you take that little piece, you can apply that to so many things in your life. If you just think about the bad habits that you know you have right now. And you can identify when those habits kick in.

Greg Voisen
Right. But the psychology behind it, I choose to eat healthy foods versus I won't eat unhealthy foods is a huge difference. And the way you've created the positive statement, the positive psychology is so important. And I think most of my listeners know that. But the reality is sometimes you say I won't eat those McDonald french fries. And I think that's an important point. Versus affirming. I will eat healthy, I would choose to eat healthy foods. Then when you pass the McDonald's, you're more apt to say hey, that isn't I know that's not healthy. I'm going to go to the nearest Panera and get a salad or whatever. Yeah, whatever it might be, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeff Griswold
We just realized I'm actually not hungry. Right? That was just an impulse that I didn't need to, you know? Yeah.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. Speak with us about the love tapes. I mean, your dad's pretty famous for those. Right?

Jeff Griswold
Yeah. You know, in fact, you mentioned the whole thing about being an author. You know, a couple years after I took over the company, I got a call from the buyer at Barnes and Noble saying, congratulations, you know, your father, Bob Griswold is the number one bestselling author in spoken word audio Barnes and Noble for this last year, and it's like, Wait, you mean above like, Dr. Phil, and Wayne Dyer and all these other? It's like, yeah, he is the number one bestselling author at Barnes and Noble for a couple of years. So. Yeah, I'm sorry, I went off on that tension.

Greg Voisen
A little bit about the love tapes, because they're your father's creation. Yeah. And they've been around quite a while. And they've made a big impact. So if you wouldn't speak about it, what it is that he's speaking about, and what he is trying to help people transform in their lives.

Jeff Griswold
So, it really comes down to all those techniques that he developed by working with these, you know, wonderful people that he worked with for a number of years by teaching these workshops to 1000s and 1000s 10s of 1000s of people in his weekend workshops You know, seeing what works. Um, and so the techniques are really about bringing together a recipe of different techniques, like I mentioned, the affirmations, first person and third person. It's the visualizations that he's come up with that have very specific goals in mind. So if you listen to the programs he's taking through a visualization of like being surrounded by a ball of energy, there's a psychological background to what that is doing with you.

Greg Voisen
I think Self Love is a really important thing. Yeah, it's one thing to love another person, it's another thing to let your ego continue to remind you, that you're not enough. Yeah. And I'm certain that the tapes, I haven't listened to all of them, just a few. But that what they're doing is they're creating this positive affirmation for people about themselves, who they are what they want to become. Because you can't be anything for anyone else. Unless you have self-love. And that isn't selfish. It's, it's truly an important element of our persona. And yeah, ego eats away at you, and tells you you're not enough, which it can do on a regular basis. You can fall down that horrible path that you were talking about, into negativity, into depression, into despair, because you've allowed that subconscious part of your mind to continue to reinforce that.

Jeff Griswold
Yeah, yeah. And the foundation of every program that we've done, and probably the best selling. One in our entire collection, is self-esteem. So we focus a lot on self-esteem, loving yourself, respecting yourself, seeing yourself as valuable. You know, you mentioned depression before, one of the interesting aspects of depression is that, you know, people are sad, every once in a while he gets, you know, bummed out about the things not going well, or anything like that. But the critical factor of that depression is the sense of worthlessness that somebody has that as a hallmark of depression with what makes a difference than passing sadness. Once you lose that self-worth. And you're not loving yourself anymore. It's, it could be very dangerous. And so, you know, again, the foundation of all of our programs is self-esteem. Whether you're listening to, you know how to exercise better or stop smoking, you know, if you don't have self-esteem, you're not going to improve yourself.

Greg Voisen
Well, you do, you and your Dad, they have made it very easy for people to improve their lives through these 122 tapes. And if people want to learn more, they will go to thewiseguideapp.com. And that is –t-h-e-w-i-s-e-g-u-i-d-e-a-p-p.com, we're going to put a link in our blog to that. Now you are providing our listeners with a discount code link. So if you would explain what it normally would cost for somebody to subscribe. And if you're an inside personal growth listener, and you use our code, you will receive a 30% discount, Jeff has kindly provided that to us. And I would recommend everybody out listening, take advantage of this. It's a great opportunity, because this isn't an expensive.

Jeff Griswold
No, it's not, it's not so and just for as a baseline, um, the if you do an annual subscription, it's just under $100 a month, I'm sorry, just under $100 a year, right? If you choose a monthly subscription, it's just under $15 a month. And so if you sign up with it, the link in your that you'll post or use the discount code inside Pro personal growth. So insight, personal growth would be the code where you can save 30% off of your first subscription payments. So it's a monthly subscription. You'll get 30% off the first month, and then I'll go to Saturday

Greg Voisen
about 11 $11. About $11. Yeah, they do an annual subscription. And it's around 100. That'd be about $70. Yeah, exactly. Is that right?

Jeff Griswold
That's exactly right. Yep. Okay. So again, insight, personal growth. So if you can The wise guide app.com/insight personal growth, you'll get that discount automatically if you go. And so that'll be the link that we provide you. Right? If you go to it any other way, just type in the insight, personal growth, discount code, and you'll get that, that discount so

Greg Voisen
well. And there's two ways to get to this. Because you can do this by going to the web and typing in your browser, thewiseguideapp.com, you that'll take you to a website, and if you want to access your account, you can, you can also access your programs through that as well. If you're mobile, and you're on an iPad, or you're on a Samsung device, or any other mobile device, or your phone, an iPhone, or any kind of phone, you can just go to the stores, either the iOS or the Android store, and download the application and access your account to listen to it in your car, you know, through your Bluetooth, whatever you need to do. Jeff, is there anything else that you would like to, you know, inform our listeners about, as far as the programs are concerned that the discounts and how this is going to work? I think it's been really informative. I think you've, we've talked about a lot of areas. But more importantly, I think for our listeners, it's been about reprogramming the subconscious. These programs are designed to work at a subconscious level. When you get them you'll see that it's also a meditative program, take these apps, wake up in the morning, and listen to a guided meditation, whether you're a meditator who likes to go in silence or not, I think frequently I mean, guided meditation helps a new meditator actually get started. Because to sit in silence, I know I'm my listeners know, I'm a devotee of self-realization fellowship. And so, you know, we've spent hours and hours meditating. But that doesn't just happen, you know, we tell new people coming in, you know, 15 minutes, you know, then from 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and then from 20 minutes 25. And then you work your way up. And I mean, if you can get to an hour, you're doing really good. You know, so I would recommend that this would be a great way to start that process, and a great way for you to also program the subconscious. Because as Jeff hasn't said, but I will say, the monkey mind takes over when you just sit in silence, and the monkey mind will tell you all kinds of things. You got to do this, you got to do that. You can't be sitting here, where are you? Where are you doing this? You have too many things to do. And before you know it, you're looking down at your watch going I have to get up and you've only been there 10 minutes, right? Yeah, yeah. But this really does help prevent that, doesn't it?

Jeff Griswold
It does. Yeah, it's, uh, I know, the monkey mind. went way too. Well, I think we all know that. Yeah. And the anxiety that goes along with it.

Greg Voisen
Well, and we live in such a busy world. I mean, let's face it, we're were constantly getting notifications, emails, demands on our time. And unfortunately, people take far too little time to think and reflect and contemplate. And you can do that after meditation. The reality is the point of meditation is to make a higher connection, in most cases, especially from the Eastern philosophies, but in this case, it's really to make a connection with the subconscious and reprogram it, and you have to do that first, before you can actually go into the other things.

Jeff Griswold
So yeah, so um, a couple of thoughts when you said they're asked about anything to add a couple thoughts when you talk about the monkey mind. And the benefits of meditation have been documented pretty clearly, you know, in terms of relaxation and, and focus and things like that. But what we've done is we've taken meditation to the next level, right? We've made it productive meditation, because just spending some time silent, relax, doing breathing exercises, and things like that is wonderful. And that's how a lot of people meditate. But with us, we've taken that and added on the aspect of reprogramming the mind for a prescriptive goal that you have in your life.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and that's, that's important, Jeff, and I'm glad you brought that up. Because look, there's many ways you can go. We're not saying not to just meditate and complete Science, but you supplement that with something like this to help you achieve a goal, whether it's weight loss, or confidence, or whatever, or reducing anxiety or whatever it might be. Really quick story when I was very young. Yeah, young father, I had lots of problems with anxiety and to the point where the anxiety was debilitating, and a lot of people listening out there have had this. So I ended up going to Scripps Clinic, and they put all those electrodes all over me. But I could see myself on the screen, I could actually see what was happening to my brainwaves. And I realized that this was self-induced, I thought it was something else that was doing it right. And as soon as you realize that you self-induced this anxiety, you learn how to control it. And ever since that biofeedback which is what it used to be called. And they still do it today. I learned what I was doing that was creating the actual anxiety and the anxiety attacks were so debilitating, that I wouldn't go to a restaurant, a lot of times, I wouldn't leave the house, I wouldn't get in an elevator, I wouldn't do a lot of things. And people, let me tell you, it's a real thing. Your heart starts to be sweat, you think you're having a heart attack, you believe that the whole world is spinning. And it's all self-induced. So these tapes will help to prevent that anxiety. So any of you out there dealing with that, this would be a great place to go and listen to the wise guide. programs. And Jeff, pleasure having me on inside personal growth speaking with me today, spending a few minutes of your time, again, we'll have a code in this and a link so that you can go up and look at this. I encourage everybody to go look at the website, try the app for free. Like he said, download it, and then use the code. Do we have an expiration date on the code?

Jeff Griswold
Um, let's see. It'll go to Christmas. How about that? Okay. And in now, and I mentioned Christmas, you can gift the app as well. So even if you don't necessarily think you need it for yourself, I'm sure you know somebody who could benefit from this too. So there's a gift feature on there as well.

Greg Voisen
Well, I appreciate you, Jeff. I appreciate effective learning, and the wise guide app and all that you guys are doing to change millions of lives and reprogram the mind and give them a new RAM being on insight personal growth.

Jeff Griswold
Thank you so much, Greg. I really enjoyed it.

powered by

 

This is not the first time that I am interviewing author and thought leader Jan Phillips.  She’s been in the show a couple of times and have become a very good friend of mine.  In my recent interview with Jan, we speak about her new book entitled “Still on Fire: Field Notes from a Queer Mystic”

Jan is a  natural story teller who provides insipiration to her audience and in this interview she shares an inspirational story for the teens and the  community who wants to find out how to create a vital and inspired spiritual life for themselves, which will inform all their actions in the world.

Still on Fire is a memoir of religious wounding and spiritual healing, of judgment and forgiveness for people to read, to understand what they went through, and to then relate that to things they might be going through in their life, where they’re having similar reactions to it.

To learn more about Jan, her books and workshops,  please click here to be directed to his website. You can also check out her podcast “The Sound of Light” by clicking on this link.

I hope you enjoy this engaging and informative interview with my good friend Jan Phillips.

THE BOOK

Still on Fire is a memoir of religious wounding and spiritual healing, of judgment and forgiveness, and of social activism in a world that is in our hands. Phillips traveled the globe on a one-woman peace pilgrimage, raised the consciousness of women, faced her privilege on a trip to India, and is working to dismantle structural racism. Her The Livingkindness Foundation supports schoolchildren in Nigeria. “Any spirituality that does not bring about more justice, more social awareness, more right action in the world is a lame and impotent excuse for faith … My action for justice is my spirituality.” Over the years, Phillips created a life of love, service, community, and prayer. She evolved her understanding of God and came to see herself―and all of us―as the light of the world. “Had I not been born gay … my heart would not have broken in half, would not have opened itself to Love Supreme, would not have been tenderized by life’s bitter pounding.” She tells the story of her life with humor and compassion, sharing her poetry, songs, and photos along the way.

THE AUTHOR

Jan Phillips is a visionary thought leader, award-winning author and dynamic speaker. She is co-founder and executive director of the Livingkindness Foundation.

Jan has worked in 23 countries presenting keynotes, workshops, and retreats. She creates a unique multi-sensory experience, weaving humor, storytelling, video and music to inspire and ignite insights for life-changing action. Jan shows people how to access their wisdom, activate their creative energy and communicate with passion and power.

Her own quest has led her into and out of a religious community, across the U.S. on a Honda motorcycle, and around the world on a one-woman peace pilgrimage. Blending east and west, art and activism, reflection and ritual, Jan’s presentations are transformative, uplifting and soul-stirring.

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen. The host of Inside Personal Growth. And Jan as I do every time I do one of these shows, and I think my authors get sick of me saying it, but there wouldn't be a podcast after 15 years. I'm still doing this if I didn't have listeners and those listeners are. There's tons of nerdy dedicated for those of you who are new who found me. However, you found me, thank you so much. And joining me from San Diego just right down the street. Well, maybe a little bit more down the street, but I'm in Encinitas. She's in San Diego is Jan Phillips, a longtime friend who has written a new book called still on fire. And the subtitle is Field Notes from a Queer Mystic. And Jan, this is just a lovely book. It's a pleasure having you on how are you doing?

Jan Phillips
I'm doing just great. I'm thrilled to see you and be with you. Again, thanks for the hour…

Greg Voisen
Well, even if it's via zoom. I mean, because it's been a while since we've actually sat down and had a cup of coffee and that's what we should do next or tea, but I'm going to let my listeners know something about you. Jen Phillips Quest has letter into and out of a religious community across the country, on a Honda motorcycle, and around the world on a one woman peace pilgrimage. She's been a writer and a photographer since the mid-1970s. An artist in many arenas. Jan has three CDs of original music, a YouTube channel, a monthly newsletter, podcast and videos and conducts and connects the dots of evolutionary creativity, spiritual intelligence, and social action. She is the author of 10 other books. And if you want to find out more about her books, just go to it's very easy. janphillips.com there you can actually see I watched a TED talk this morning. I didn't even know she was on TED. You can see that talk about creativity. But we're going to talk about this book. And I think more interestingly about this book and her journey is what every one of my listeners I think, can learn from this book. Learn More importantly about spirituality, creativity and life. And Jan, I don't know I've known you for a long time. I've known you in the business world. I've known you in the personal world. I've seen how you've interacted with people and the creativity that you've brought to the table and it has always impressed me, you know, between the music, the poetry, the photography, the books, the things, you're somebody who's always in motion. And you've you've written many other books, like we said, and some of those were like business evolutionary books, right? They were very, very interesting. They were way ahead of their time, by the way, had they come out now with this climate summit? I think we probably would have gotten a lot more juice from them. But this book still on fire is really kind of about you. And your journey and your life and why this book now? And just really why would you want to let the world know?

Jan Phillips
That's such a good question. Um, all of my other books are nonfiction which erupt out of some problem right? And so if you see a problem, then you do your research and you write the book about it. But now I'm at a point in my life, I'm 72. And I thought, good time to write a memoir. Specifically called Field Notes. From a queer mystic for two reasons. One is cake teens are in trouble. They're four times more apt to attempt suicide than regular straight teens are. And there's trouble in the gay community where there's just a lot of violence these days. And so I wanted to be totally out and to make it very clear on the cover of the book that this was for our tribe for and about our community. The Mystic piece, is because you know, there's a massive exodus movement of people leaving the churches now because the churches are failing. In integrity, they're failing to be inspiring, and people are just leaving the churches in droves. Many of them haven't ever teased apart. Religion, what we inherit from our own spirituality, what we create. And so I think there's a lot of people out there, particularly Catholics, who feel like they can have a powerful spirituality because you're not associated with Catholicism anymore. So this book is for that community, who wants to find out how to create a vital and inspired spiritual life for themselves, which will inform all their actions in the world. So it says show by all of the experiences of one person who did it

Greg Voisen
Well, it took a lot of courage, you know, to do the things you've done, and I think one of the things that you're bringing to your audience, your tribe, is the opportunity to be courageous. I know when people come out, that's a courageous act. Many people still hide behind that veil, and of being gay, I want you to tell us a little bit about your personal story. From a gay girl to becoming a nun in the convent to breaking free I say breaking free, because, you know, religion versus spirituality versus faith. As you denote in the book. There's a huge difference. I always say religion did more to control people than it ever did to do anything else. Versus spirituality. Help people become free. It freedom. I mean, that's my personal comparing contrast. That's good. Yeah. What do you believe? You've been the significant turning points. And what would you tell our listeners that are contemplating their life's journey, whether they're gay or not? And embracing what's next? Because, you know, with COVID, with the lockdown, with everybody rethinking their finitude you know, I lost two brothers this year. I lost two good friends this year. Um, you know, you've got people leaving work and groves, saying, I don't want to be at this place anymore because I don't have fulfillment I don't have meaning I don't have purpose in what I'm doing. And you're the perfect person to address this. So I know I packed a lot in that question. But there's two questions really, probably three. I want you to tell the people about your story of becoming a nun. And then being dismissed. I read the damn letter that they sent to you which was like that was the lamest excuse I've ever seen. To breaking free and then helping people kind of embrace their spirituality and their creativity. What would you tell them?

Jan Phillips
Well, a backstory. Yeah, it's covered I was gay. There wasn't word gay. In the in the 60s when I discovered that I was homosexual. Nothing could be worse than to be a Catholic. 12-year-old who falls in love with girls. Nothing could be worse. So. So I considered suicide because as far as I knew from the whole Catholic church, God doesn't like homosexuals. The church doesn't. The culture doesn't family doesn't so I'll just kill myself. So I am pondering how will I do this? And I'm in sixth grade and the nun likes me and she wonders why am I walking around so sad and when my head down all hunched over all the time, and she decides to do a campaign she calls my mom. She says your daughter, something's wrong with your daughter. We're going to bring her back to life. How my mom, how do we do this? Well, I have a new idea. We're going to try positive reinforcement, which is just affirming the kid over and over whenever they do anything, right and the nun did it in spades. Every time she'd watched me on the playground, she'd say how good I was. It captured the flag. Best valor and class rights is so straight on the board. So smart what an artist. First I thought she was crazy. But after a month of this, it sunk in. In one day, it happened that that sad, sick little caterpillar woke up a butterfly. And when that happened, I immediately became a leader. I immediately stopped thinking suicidal thoughts. And I immediately decided I'm going to be a nun when I grow up because none save kids’ lives. So that was the weird reason why I went into the convent to save other kids lives. And I had to wait six years because I was 12 when that happened. So I stayed in the I loved it in the comment because I didn't pay any attention to rules that I didn't want to pay attention to. So I just took a lot of freedom to be me. But they found out that I was gay that I was in love with the novice that I had snuck into her bedroom. It was a disaster because even though they're always afraid of a carnal relationship, never did anything more than kiss. Nothing sexual ever happened. But they had such fear about those kinds of relationships. So they sent me home. worst thing that ever happened to me, and it began a 20 year downward spiral.

Greg Voisen
I have a question. For you how to impose it here on stress. Do you ever watch Grant Chester?

Jan Phillips
I have seen it once.

Greg Voisen
It is the guy it's the gay guy who they catch in the 50s and put him in prison in England. Yeah. Being gay, but he is the Vicar's assistant or what a cure whatever they call them. Yes. And, and it's, you know, you get to look back in time you say how ignorant could people be? You know, if they went before a judge in a trial and a jury in the whole nine yards and they threw him in jail. All I can say to my listeners if you haven't seen grant Chester, PBS, it's the it's the best and what Jan is talking about. She isn't just saying, hey, this this happened once. This happens so much back then that it was almost a crime. You know, I'm sorry if I sidetracked you, but

Jan Phillips
No, you didn't sidetrack me. What happened in a college class I took to the expression of homophobia was my professor, who was a class was how do you create a two slide projector show where the images dissolve and there's a soundtrack of music to create a more emotional impact. This is before computers before PowerPoints, right? So everyone is using slide projectors. And so I came out and I did a slideshow called Woman to Woman and then had images of lesbians but it was about as many images as how we are in the culture. I don't know 10% It wasn't all that and there was no eroticism or anything. It was just there was a picture of a woman on a motorcycle with a T shirt that said I love younger woman. That's just you know, kind of the extent of it or, you know, a button that says I'm a dyke. It was just nothing. But he was disgusted with the whole thing said he was giving me an F. Few people in the class, John me. And I went right over to that's when the day I came out as an activist, I went right over to the human sexuality professor, because I knew he always brought marginalized people into his classes to talk to the classes. I want to talk to your class about being a lesbian and getting bad treatment from people for no reason at all. So he let me talk to the class and that was my coming out as a social activist.

Greg Voisen
Interesting, you know, because I, I had a class at San Diego State in the 70s and even in the 70s. I remember it was a class on sexuality and it was jam full. And they would bring in marginalized people as you said, they'd either bring in couples that were swingers or they bring in gay man or lesbian night, whatever they had, you know, but the reason the class was packed is because everybody was so interested, people were hanging out the doors. I mean, it was it was probably one of the most fun classes and then afterwards, we all went to a bar and talk and yeah, you know, it was that was the way it was the way that's so what would you tell the listeners in some way from this experience because it had its pain and it's had its joys it you know, you've had you had a partner you lost her to cancer, you know, I have a had an older brother, who died two years ago, and he was gay all of his life. He died at 77. And he said, you know, and he lived in the same times you did, I mean, it was pretty much identical. And he said there was nothing worse than being a gay man. He said, I wouldn't wish this on anybody. What you know what happened? To him? You know, you look at his journey, meaning that he didn't find that much happiness as a result of it. And my guess my question to you would be in all of this journey that you've been from being a nun me reading that letter in the book about what she said I actually even quoted it somewhere in these questions. Because I just was appalled at the letter and it said Occidental, California. I was like, where's Occidental? That must be in LA, right? Just thinking it's,

Jan Phillips
Oh, it's up North Sonoma County,

Greg Voisen
Is that where it is, I don't even know where Occidental was. I saw in the letter Occidental is like I said, No, I know there's an Occidental College. I didn't know there was no, but what would you tell our listeners about this journey about the, you know, becoming an activist like you just said, that was the day I became an activist. You know, you made a decision in your life and I think there becomes a turning point where people say there's so much pain, I'm going to do something to change.

Jan Phillips
Yes, that's it and I could not heal my heart. You know, I live for a couple years every day going to the mailbox thinking. Maybe today I'll get the letter saying they made a terrible mistake. You know, I was just like, living with a delusion that they had just made a terrible mistake because I was destined to be in in a religious community. So I couldn't heal my heart and I tried therapy, never worked, never worked. Years go by and I'm just how it translated through my body was I had so much rage, I had so much shame. I had so much pain, so not knowing what to do, how I couldn't turn it around. I just started drinking. A lot. I started doing drugs. I started being kind of promiscuous, not able to have a committed relationship because at any moment of the day, somebody can pull the rug out from under you. So it undermined all my natural instincts to trust people. It was terrible. And that went on for 20 years, until I had an occasion to sit down with a woman who was the provincial director of the community. It was a mother house with 400 sisters. in it. The head honcho of the mother house, agreed to sit down with me to help me process it because I said to her, I can't heal and it's been 20 years since she was generous. She goes yes come to my convent. She had rotated out of leadership. Go to the convent tell her the whole story. My hope is if I have her as a witness, something might change. And something changed indeed, and I don't know why but at the at I started the story when I was 12. Talk to her about you know, the whole night of being kicked out how terrible that was what I've what's happened to me since then, and when I was done, she said she called me sister. She said, Sister, will you forgive me? For this terrible injustice that happened to you on my watch? Kind of surprised me because I wasn't there with the agenda called, they better figure out how to ask me for my friend and didn't even hurt. And then I said, Yeah, I said, Of course I forgive you. And then she said, Will you forgive the entire community of the Sisters of St. Joseph Yes. I said, Of course. I forgive the entire community of the Sisters of St. Joseph of Carondelet. For this terrible injustice that was done to me, and the minute I uttered those words, some kind of miracle happened. And my brain took a turn. And I hear this voice says nothing to forgive. And the next thing that occurred to me what I said to her, Oh my God, there's nothing to forgive. I said, I shouldn't be thanking you for the privilege that you gave me to spend two years in a monastic environment. So in my brain, the whole thing got turned around and I don't know what that forgiveness thing had to do with it.

Greg Voisen
Well, it sounds like you went through the rage process. In other words, you know, when people get angry, you said hey, I went into drugs. I was promiscuous. They did this. That was kind of the rage part that you got through then when you went back to see her after that. Is that correct?

Jan Phillips
Yeah, way after that.

Greg Voisen
Way after that and you got her forgiveness. Something triggered in your mind…

Jan Phillips
I didn't get her forgiveness. I forgave her.

Greg Voisen
Ultimately but she said, Will you forgive? What I heard you say was, will you forgive me and us the rest of them and yes, in order? Yeah. And you said you don't need to. I forgive you. Is that right?

Jan Phillips
At first I said, I forgive you and then the voice from the cosmos says there's nothing to forgive.

Greg Voisen
Well, that's the spirituality and not the religion that's the soul and not the ego. And you know, you got to a point. I just had an interview with Gary Zukav, you know, Universal Human. And you know, our, our true power is that power from the soul, yet we frequently get tied up in the ego and think that's so important to, you know, have that. No, we all have them. The question is, how much are they impeding our growth? And can you recognize that and you know, your spiritual journey, as you said, it's been interesting. You've been from embracing Catholicism, to touching Buddhism, to touching all these other things that you explored. you've explored a lot. And you cite this nails bore, I never heard of them before. And there was a great quote, opposite a truth statement is a false statement. But opposite a profound truth is another profound truth. Have you found the truth? What? significant meaning? Does that quote have for you? And How might our listeners relate to that as well?

Jan Phillips
Niels Bohr is a physicist. And the world of physics is open. It's kind of opening up. The science of physics is opening up our minds to the most incredible truth because it borders on metaphysics, right? So physics leads to metaphysics. And so what he said is opposite a true statement. is a false statement. In this realm, where we live in the realm of the relative, it's true, it's raining out or it's not raining, right? It's either true or false whenever you're saying and it because you can see it, feel it, etc. But in the realm of the Absolute, which is the dimension beyond us, the dimension of divinity, the absolute realms, there's no good and evil, there's no duality. Opposite of profound truth is another profound truth. So I could say from this higher perspective, being dismissed from the convent was the worst thing that ever happened to me. being dismissed from the convent was the best thing that ever happened to me. They're both profoundly true.

Greg Voisen
That is what I wanted the listeners to hear. Because frequently when something goes away that we think we should have, we get attached to it. So it's non attachment to what that is in our mind to what we think it was supposed to be. And for you this supposed to be was I was supposed to stay in the convent. And the truth was, you weren't. And you were supposed to become Jan, the truth is that is the truth. Now a question because so many listeners are active on social media. And the divisiveness that occurs as a result of people putting stories out, including our media, and this wasn't one of our questions, but I have this for you. And how in in the you said right first off that the gay community is hurting. That was one of your first statements, there's a lot of anger. And this is being proliferated by false stories, false stories that are all over the place, all you got to do is go on the internet and you start to see them and these false stories have been exacerbated lately. In your mind to bring you know, they said there's either fear or love to big emotions. How would you bring love back to this community that you say is hurting so much?

Jan Phillips
Well, it's kind of a tricky question. I mean, writing this memoir, and telling the whole story of being queer on my life and the consequences of that is one way to do it. Right. I created a whole photo exhibition called born gay with that I that was up for a month in Hillcrest at The Living Room, coffee house, and it's big images of me all through my life from age three kindergarten third grade, in a tells the whole story about how did I know I was born gay, what it felt like how come I had to have a fake boyfriend. All the ways I lied and tried to not try to say I am not that how it backfires on us. So I think the best we can do is to just come out and tell our own stories. But the problem is, see I have nothing to fear and nothing to lose. I had lost everything. So there was nobody could get at me now. I have I lost my church, my community. I lost my family for a little while. So what else can they take from me? I have nothing to lose, but I'm in alignment. I'm in community with women who could lose their children in a custody case. So me being out. No, no consequences. You can't hurt my feelings, right? But my sister being out, they could take that her kids away. So we really have to face up with what's the real ramifications, but look what they're doing to Pete Buda judge now. Yeah. Oh making fun of them for taking paternity leave. You know, I just read today a little trans kid in grammar school. The boys put up a camera they hit a camera in the bathroom. To see how the kid went to the bathroom as a trans person and then they posted it online. That kind of baloney. They're throwing us off buildings in the Middle East. They're killing people outright in the streets in Africa because our missionaries go over there and say homosexuality is a terrible sin and a crime. It goes on everywhere all around us. Every one of us who is queer has to deal with how am I going to be and I just say the most freedom comes for us and to us and through us when we acknowledge. Yes, I am that.

Greg Voisen
I would say that if that's true with anything that you are is to claim it and not dance around it. And I and I think that's an important message here. It's an important message in the book. And whether it's bravery or courage or whatever you want to call it. And you know you speak about being a nun which we're in the UN I say in the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church. What would you tell the listeners about finding their bliss? And what risks you had to take to ultimately find yours and speak about the journey that you call it from religion to faith, if you would,

Jan Phillips
I didn't realize how to find my bliss, until I'm sitting there in a mess going. When was I blissful? And the truth was, I was blissful for the most part in the convent. And the reason was, because when you're in the novitiate, it's like boot camp. When you're in boot camp for any of the armed forces, they control your time. Right? Five o'clock get up six o'clock do that. Eight o'clock do this right. Well, so it's like that in the convent. Only. They pretty much divvied up the day into four parts. Prayer, solitude community and service. And when I put all those pieces together, I said, Oh my heavens, I could create a life that has equal parts. of service to others. Community, prayer and silence. And so once I got that, that's how I created my life.

Greg Voisen
You don't need someone else to do that before you anybody listening out there can do that.

Jan Phillips
So right when we're in charge of our time it's a matter of how you apportion your time. That's why I think you mentioned this earlier, Greg, but that's why I think so many people have quit their jobs and they're not going back. Because they discovered when they create their own days yes, you have to put in the work part. But you can also consciously create it so you have time for meditation, time to be with other people socially. You figure out what your services right so we have this COVID thing has been the worst thing and the best thing that ever happened to the human species.

Greg Voisen
I agree. I agree. And it's giving us time, I think you said in your speech to them about creativity. We're going to change out our Ram, you know, we're going to actually the mental printer software, upgrade our software. And I think that's important. And you state that you were running toward a good life but that you were running away at the same time, from a culture that shamed you a family that might not accept you in a world that didn't seem to have a place for you. You know, it was interesting. Your mother was Catholic. Your father wasn't Catholic. So it was a you know, what does the lesbian woman inside of you want to say about being accepted? And what would you advise any other gay women listening to be accepted?

Jan Phillips
Well, I think it's really important to create for ourselves our own family of choice to prepare ourselves to Yeah, I still have my family. I still go to family reunions, I still, I visit my brother occasionally though. He's a Trump supporter, and it's become more difficult now. But I have another family of people who will never let me down. And they are my community and they're all over the country. But that's an essential thing. For those of us who, whose lives are at risk. And I'm not worried about somebody coming up and killing me for being queer, although somebody might. I I'm not worried about that. But I know that I have a community of support and I think that's like somebody might be sitting in some podunk town in Nebraska. Or in the middle of Kansas right now. And not be out and not be proud and not know how to find community. I think they should go to janphillips.com and get a consult with me.

Greg Voisen
I agree. I agree.

Jan Phillips
Because there's a lot I'm not we're not going to spend a lot of time here I may giving you steps one through five. But the thing I know is that we have to figure out how to create a circle around ourselves and that sometimes starts with book clubs, you know, sometimes helps to have social media, but everybody's story is so different.

Greg Voisen
Well, you travel around the country speaking and doing community and build a built community everywhere. And if they go to your website, they certainly can find out where you're going to be next. And in spite of COVID Jan still forges on, masks or no masks in this case probably masked but you know, do look for she's right go to janphillips.com, j-a-n-p-hi-l-l-i-p-s.com. And send her an email. You know, it say hey, I'd like to talk to you because this is going to reach a lot of people. And I'm hoping it has a very positive element that people hear through this who would like to get in touch with you? Now? In the 60s, you had the software of consult Catholicism installed, you said as you wrote in the book, what was it like living with a mother that was Catholic, and they said there were 13 of you. Is that right? My mom was one of 14, one of 14 and a father who did not follow the religion but your mother one and influenced your programming. And why do you believe you bought in lock stock and barrel? What is it that you think if you think back then, you know, we don't we're very young. We're very impressionable. I actually I'll say this when I was interviewing Gary Zukav. He said, you know, do you remember when you're in your backyard and there was a sandbox, and there were fences around it? He says you had never taken the fences down. And in your case, in anybody's case being that young, you're so influenced, you don't recognize there's something beyond the fences. Right. I think that's a really great analogy. We don't recognize there's something beyond the fences, and we're frequently stuck in the fences in the same sandbox, doing the same thing. Why do you think you bought into it lock stock barrel so much?

Jan Phillips
Well, for one, the Catholic Church is a master at programming, because they do it with let's say, I'll say three words, Frankincense candles. Colored vestments ever changing. Hallelujah chorus, that will do it.

Greg Voisen
So that's what got you to change. Okay, so, after you were dismissed, you got in you were in a couple of years you were dismissed and you wrote this letter to Sister Joan Teresa, Teresa, right. And you wanted to find out why you were dismissed. And you talked a little bit about this. But the reason stated was in the letter, a disposition unsuited to religious life with excessive and exclusive friendships, quote, unquote. She claims she didn't have the file or whatever short. Yeah. So what was it like dealing with the dismissal and how did you deal with this? And you've actually already said how you kind of went back and ask her but mentally at the time, Jan Philipp, sitting there getting this letter where you raged? Enraged?

Jan Phillips
I felt bad that they never got me because I told you, I think they had a very fear. It was called particular friendships and we short the PDFs. And we made jokes about it. And if you have somebody really strongly fond of and there's any emotional qualities, you'd be your PDF, okay, but that's why she said, you know, relationship particular friendships. Yeah. And so I had one, I had to, you know, I wrote about the two in the book, and that just, you know, it scared them. And so I thought they think I'm unsuitable for religious life because I love people. Yeah. And they say I'm excessive and exclusive. Well, excessive. Yes. Exclusive. No. So I said they don't even know who they're dealing with here. But it still didn't make me feel better because I still had no power in the matter. And I was still turning the whole thing into a country western tune called they done me wrong. Because that was seventh 1977. That was only midway through my healing journey which took me into 1990.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, the book is a great memoir for people to read, to understand what you went through, and to then relate that to things they might be going through in their life, where they're having similar reactions to it, and how they can learn to let go, how you learn to let go of that, and to forgive, and maybe never forget, but to forget. And Jan, you said that Ken Keyes Jr. wrote a book entitled The 100th. Monkey. What impact this book have on your life and how did it turn your life upside down? As you stated in the book?

Jan Phillips
I was working as a picture framer in a suburban mall outside Syracuse, New York. I go to work one day and now my workbench is a book called The 100th monkey. I took it with me on my lunch hour and read the whole thing while I was eating my sandwich. And I discovered I could be the 100th person. I don't think we have time to go into the story, but anyone could Google it and get the story. But I proclaimed in the middle of the restaurant, oh my god, I could be the 100th person because it's about changing consciousness, not through words. And language, but through intention, and thought and action. And that was a day I decided to make a piece pilgrimage around the world. So I left the restaurant, went over to the bank, give the teller 20 bucks and say to her, I'm going to make a piece pilgrimage around the world as soon as I get $5,000 in the savings account. And I'm going to do it as fast as I can. And then I had to go to work finish my Fincher framing job but while I was there, I created like a 75 word ad for the Pennysaver that said, we'll do the following tasks. You know, paint your house, clean out your attic, wash your windows data, and then I started getting jobs and then I also became a waitress for Howard Johnson went to work at 5am I also became a dishwasher at a restaurant wash dishes until midnight. So I've worked really hard for a year and a half got my $5,000 but 200 rolls of film 200 Kodak mailers for my slides. And that's how the whole thing has started. Yeah, so the 100th Monkey.

Greg Voisen
Well, it was certainly the thing that got you on fire. And still on fire. Yeah. Now you state that God you state that the God you once related to has gone away of the wild gates, okay. But God you once related to that doesn't mean you don't believe in God. It just means that God that you had formed in your life as being part of a nun and living the religious life versus the spiritual but the time that you spent in prayer and meditation only increases every day, today, tomorrow, what you do, how is your relationship with God morphed and what makes it better now than it was in the past?

Jan Phillips
So I no longer have an image the Sistine Chapel image of that fear did God reaching out and touching and creating Adam that is the image that's gone the way of the Wild Goose. I have also studied John Bishop John Shelby Spong, who's a biblical scholar and studied the text and have no longer look to Scripture. Because there's, it's so much of it as suspect through all the translations through the patriarchy through all the agendas evolved, the people, you know, it was original Aramaic, and then it gets translated into Latin by male priests. And then it gets translated into Greek and then it gets translated into your old English, right? It's just how can anything stay the same? So I don't count on those scriptures being necessarily true, being that truth, being the truth, not true meaning with a capital T. So every morning in my practice, I'd like to candles and I recreate fresh every day. Who is this God people talk about? And it's just gotten down to that force is the source of this creation. It's more like a verb. It's ongoing. It's the wave and I'm the particle. It's one energy. And energy either takes the form of a wave or a particle based on who's looking. And so I know I'm the particle version. And I know the invisible one is the wave version. But that's in my lungs in my bloodstream, the air that I breathe, the sea that I swim in, that is divine mind, to me, I think, divine mind.

Greg Voisen
I love your analogy because I go to listen to the monks at SRF and I'm a devotee. And they always say, there's the drop and the sea. And this is we are drops in the sea of the total right out of the hole. And, you know, it is that's the way really to look at it. So, you if you were to leave these listeners with three key takeaways from the book, what would they be and what would you say to encourage our listeners to embrace this god energy? In other words, the energy not the religion, the fact that it is part of us we are all God in our own right. We are those particles as part of the whole, right? We're all interconnected. What would you tell them about your journey, having been separated, saying, Oh, no, God is up there. Right, because that's the way you were the two fingers doing this. Versus No, God is in here. And I am that I'm you know, I think there's still people making that journey Jan. Lots of them.

Jan Phillips
Emily Dickinson one said, the only news I get is bulletins all day from immortality. And when I think of God is supreme intelligence, I think of God is broadcasting intelligence throughout the cosmos every minute of the day. And so how do I get my messages? Right? I sit there in silence and say, I'm here. I'm listening. I'm in your presence. I don't have a puppy there. I don't have other people there. I don't I'm not playing my playlists. I'm in silence. I have a candle burning. And I sit there for a designated period of time. That is a requirement to be in relationship with divine mind. Imagine falling in love with someone. You know the feeling think of being in love with I have driven through blizzards to spend a night with someone I love. I have risked my life to be in the arms of the Beloved. Now if you're in love with somebody, when they call and say, how do we get together? You do not say I don't have time. Because all you want to do is be in the arms of Your Beloved. So the critical requirement, you can do it 10 minutes a day. I guarantee you'll up your game. If you commit to 10 minutes a day, every day to sit in silence. Put your phone somewhere else. Don't read the newspaper. Don't have any temptations around you to take your attention. Just sit there quietly, you will be communicated to all my CDs are songs that I wrote as a result of the communications I received in my meditation time. Every song comes from the outside in. So if I would say to your listeners if you want an inspired life, take a listen every day to the boss of inspiration to the supreme source of your life. Tune in, tune in and realize that everything this goes back to opposite truth is an untruth opposite of profound tape statement is on the other profound statement. This is also true everything that has happened to you. It could be the best thing and it could be the worst thing but it has happened to you. It has happened for you and has happened through you that you co created every disaster, every trauma and every tragedy in your life. You had something to do with that being in your sphere, because we are creative people. It has happened for you as well as to you and that you we have to process the events of our lives. Keep spinning them until we come to the point where we finally get it and say thank you for that occurrence. You know you say to somebody What's the worst thing that ever happened? To you my divorce from my first husband? What's the best thing that ever happened to my divorce from my first husband? Right, right, because they have processed it. Right now. They're going thank God I divorced my first husband.

Greg Voisen
I always love what Byron Katie used to say, you know to say is it true? Is it really true? Right? Meaning because, you know, we live in a world of making stuff up then believing what we made up and then living the story that we made up, right. You know, and you don't have to believe everything you think. And so you know, you're walking around having this thought about what was the worst thing that ever happened? And that's really an essence what you have had happen is you started you start to question your thinking but then when you get in touch with a true higher source, call it God power, the omnipotent, whatever, you find that you will shift so much because you have a love relationship with God or a higher power, knowing that every day that's what you said, I'm seeking to have this connection, because that's where I get my sustenance from. I get my sustance I get my creativity I get everything I need. For my listeners. Go out and get a copy of this still on fire. You're going to be on fire after you read it because you're going to want to do something in your life and change something from this memoir. Jan, it's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth, sharing some of your stories and your experiences because that's how we all learn. Community. We are the people. They can go to your website at janphillips.com, we'll put a link in there. Also the link to the book on Amazon as well. Do follow Jan, she's got a newsletter. She's got a lot of things that you could sign up for, but an opportunity to explore new horizons. That's what I'll say. Jan, Thanks so much for being on the show.

Jan Phillips
Greg. Thanks.

You're great. We love you. Take care.

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My guest for this podcast is Linda Wawrzyniak and she recently released a new book entitled “Million Dollar Adjustments: The Power of Small Changes on Performance, Productivity, and Peace.” 

Linda’s book is designed to show that adjustment is one of the most treasured and powerful words and a defiite key to success.  In my interview with her, we discuss about improving adjustment skill sets, timing and focus.  As a consultant and educator for Major League Baseball (MLB) teams, this book is a product of Linda’s years of research and testing in professional baseball and has been a reference and guidebook for athletes to improve key relationships, increase confidence and improve performance.

In this book, Linda also introduced a tool called “The Adjustment Awareness Audit,” a great tool to help people understand their performance adjustment tendencies and plan their next move.

If you want to learn more about Linda, her new book “Million Dollar Adjustments” and her coaching programs, please click here to be directed to her website.

Thanks for listening and enjoy this interview!

THE BOOK

Based on years of research in professional baseball, this book shares the reason why the word “adjustment” is the key to success.

Everyone has desires placed on their hearts. Whether it’s succeeding at work, losing weight, completing education, or improving key relationships, the list goes on and on. To fulfill these desires, we tend to employ familiar tools that have worked for us in the past. But then life throws us a curveball—a job loss, performance analytics, relationship troubles, or a global pandemic—and we get stuck. We have to search for new ways and new tools to adjust to these changes. This book provides new answers based on the latest research so you can succeed at whatever you are aiming for!

THE AUTHOR

Linda Wawrzyniak knows the enormous impact even the smallest adjustments can have on improving performance and increasing overall confidence and contentment. As a consultant and educator for Major League Baseball (MLB) teams, Linda began helping players navigate the challenges that come from acculturation and transition; at the same time, she also discovered the secret to improving their performance on the field. For the first time ever, she shares the secret of successful adjustments from within the closely guarded world of professional baseball. As a special bonus, the reader will have the opportunity to learn more about their own adjustment pattern tendencies through the Adjustment Awareness Audit, derived from the test used inside the MLB draft.

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Hi, this is Greg Voisen, with Inside Personal Growth, and joining me from South Bend, Indiana is Linda, and I want you to pronounce your own last name because I would probably mess this up. I should have asked you before we got on, but say it for us.

Linda Wawrzyniak
It's Wawrzyniak

Greg Voisen
And for all of you who are listening. It's spelled as W-a-w-r-z-y-n-I-a-k And the reality is, you probably were good that I asked you how to say Wawrzyniak. And if you want to learn more about Linda and her book, we're going to be talking about the million dollar adjustments. I'd like for you to go to Major League consulting.com. There, you can learn more about Linda, you can learn more about her consulting. And we will put a link to the book, Miller million dollar adjustments? Well, Linda, I'm going to let our listeners know something about you. Linda is developed the million dollar adjustment program, developing people inside of a corporate environment is an important activity because it's preparing them for specific skills they need to do their job. Well. Unlike regular schooling, corporate education is more focused on growth and improvement. In a real world setting. The learning is immediately executable on a day to day tasks. This means that people are in a consistent state of adjustment of applying what they know, to what they don't know, as well as what they are in the middle of learning. So that's the title of her book, million dollar adjustment. And she has spent much of her career and I'm going to let her tell that story, working with Major League Baseball players. And for those of you who are joining us on Zoom, you get to see the glove, the ball and the American flag, and a beautiful young lady speaking with us. So let's start this podcast off with this, you know when to set the stage for the interview, give the listeners a little context, for your book, tell the listeners a little about yourself. And really what has inspired you to want to write million dollar adjustment, because I think most listeners could probably figure out that, you know, if a batter gets up to bat, there's a certain percentage of them if they just adjust their swing a little bit. They're going to hit more home runs, right? Because that's been something that's been done, but you're actually kind of informing them how to go through that process. So tell us more about you and the book.

Linda Wawrzyniak
Okay, well, first of all, thank you, Greg, for having me. I really appreciate this time and your interest in in my work. So I started totally by accident and baseball, I obviously did not play Major League Baseball. But I got involved through the education of international players. At the time, Major League Baseball was bringing a lot of young men in from other countries and the they realized right away that the acculturation process was not easy. And so they needed some help. So they looked at it outside and found some people who not necessarily were had baseball background, but did have an education background and could teach. So I started kind of that way teaching some baseball players start out with like seven guys. And realize right away, there was no system, there was no infrastructure, no curriculum. And so I went on the process of developing it. And after a couple of years, just working with a few guys. I was invited to spring training, which was a big deal. So I went to spring training in Arizona, I didn't know what it really was, I had no idea walked into it felt like a real, you know, fish out of water, but walked around and met a lot of people really nice people and a coach came up to me at the time. And you know, he introduced himself said he really appreciated what I was doing. And so I asked him what he did. And he told me he was a former league, big league player. And now this was his first coaching job. And I was kind of surprised. So I just said, Well, what, what's been the biggest, you know, thing, the lesson that you've learned in baseball since you've been at the major league level, and now your coach, and what he said really surprised me. He said it was just basic that life was about patience and adjustments. And I did not expect him to say that. But it was so simple, and yet so profound. And at the time, I thought, Okay, that's interesting. I sort of tucked that away. But then as I went through baseball, listened to meetings, that word adjustment just kept coming up over and over and over again. And finally I said this is the key to success in the sport. This is the key to who makes it to the big leagues and who doesn't. So I need to figure out what this means. And so I went on this journey of unraveling that word, and really getting to the basic to the understanding of what makes Somebody have this, how does someone have it? Who has it? In? What quantities? What makes it? What makes? What are the elements of this word adjustment?

Greg Voisen
Well, it's interesting when you say that, you know, because whether you're an airline pilot, or you're somebody trekking a mountain adjustment is, is a very important thing, right? So if you're just off a small degree, and you're headed toward why, and I know you've heard this story, you're literally going to miss the islands completely. And it's those minor adjustments that believe it or not, now the planes that computers are making, the pilots aren't making, but the computers are. And in your case, it's these minor adjustments that you're making. And to kind of be at peace, I'd say a little bit more with every adjustment you make, and then allow it to become more of a habit. Now, in your chapter entitled face to face with failure, you mentioned, that adjustment is one of the most treasured and powerful words that you could have in our vocabulary. Can you speak with our listeners about the importance of introducing adjustments in our lives, not just the baseball players, but in our lives? And should the introduction be done in a step by step process? Or should it be all at once?

Linda Wawrzyniak
That's a great question. Well, adjustment is about grace and growth, also performance, and peace. So basically, it's the small things that we do to get us closer to our goal. And if you look at it that way, it frees us from being perfectionist and feeling that we have to have it all figured out right now. And I think that's what a lot of people feel, they, they put a lot of pressure on themselves to have it all figured out. And they don't realize that adjustments are expected, and they are important. And so basically, we will fail, we will fail at times. And we need to know how to navigate that failure. How do we give ourselves grace, and grow through that so that we can then perform once we know how to do that we have peace. So that's really why it's such a bohat like such a powerful word in our vocabulary. And each person will handle that a little differently, whether it's step by step or all at once, it kind of depends on what kind of adjuster you are.

Greg Voisen
Well, I think, um, you know, one of the statements, I've done a lot of interviews on spirituality, because this podcast genre, is personal growth, business, wellness, and spirituality. Those are all the books that come across my path. And I think one of the statements that Ram Dass said he was on the show, and many of my listeners know is but it's, it's be here now, you know, the more present you are right now, in the moment, the more you're going to learn, and the more you're going to realize that you can't blame yourself for something that happened yesterday. And you can't berate yourself for it. And at the same time, you don't know what tomorrow brings. So the you can get this tremendous focus by staying here now. And you can make those adjustments to have a better life by staying in this moment. I think that's important. And in chapter two, you define adjustment as a type of modification in how we do things built on five key elements, that you state, the five key elements work together in different ways, informing and inspiring individual behavior. So this is a behavior change when it comes to new situations, so I'm throwing something new. I have to adjust. Right, whether it's a curveball, and I never saw the curveball coming and attempts at the old ones. Can you briefly discuss the five elements of adjustment to the listeners? And how this would help them improve their lives? Whether it's baseball, or it's work, or family or home?

Linda Wawrzyniak
Absolutely, I think in, you know, we started to test, we've created a test so that we would actually have data driven information. And it's from this data that we defined and found these five elements. So I'm telling you, we define these based on what we saw in our testing. So the first one is beliefs. Beliefs, some people don't think you can test but in a weird way, it's based on subjective probability. Meaning that if you didn't succeed at something in the past, you probably won't think that you can succeed at it in the future. So that's your own subjectivity and your own probability. So and it works the other way too. So beliefs definitely play a part in our adjustment, how we make adjustments.

Greg Voisen
Can I ask you a question real quick there? They're not to not to throw you off because that's the first one beliefs. But you know, the subconscious mind is so powerful. It people have hardly ever think about reprogramming it. But within that subconscious mind are those beliefs about what we become? What would you tell people about, you know, because baseball players in particular, coming from all nationalities, all walks of lives, making it to the big times, right? Eye, and yet they're carrying these beliefs about themselves as somebody maybe who was core came from this area work their way up to get where they are. And those beliefs are very challenging to get rid off, and then they're thrust into this limelight situation, and a lot of them have a lot of problems adjusting. Yeah. So what would you tell about? I mean, if you were telling a baseball player to adjust his beliefs, and his subconscious, how would you recommend them kind of going about it?

Linda Wawrzyniak
One thing that we have found is that the belief element, really ties in with one other element can be one or two. So when you make an adjustment, or when you help them see the other elements, and suddenly through the testing, then suddenly they say, Oh, I see that I think I can do that. Or oh, you know, when you when you read, you have to explain to them, that belief is part of it. And you have to understand where their subjective probability is exactly why John Lester has the hips at times, he can't throw to first base. And that is a subjective probability that he has, in his mind probably looked at his stats and went, I don't think I can really do that I'm not going to risk it. So suddenly, you know, we carry these things around, do we risk or do we not risk based on our own beliefs. So once we start teaching some of the other elements, then that one starts to open up? So let me the, what one of them that we see has a huge immediate impact is internal timing. That's the other belief, or I'm sorry, the other element. That element is basically how we see time. And it has a lot to do with our central nervous system. It's not chronological time. It's our own internal timing. And one way that we kind of help people see this or understand this is through a very simple demonstration. So I can show you if you're interested,

Greg Voisen
Does it require that I stand up?

Linda Wawrzyniak
No, you don't have to stand up at all. Okay, all you do is tell me stop and start. That's all. So I'm going to ask you to I'm going to start, when you say start, I'm going to hit my stopwatch and when you think four seconds has passed to say, Stop.

Greg Voisen
Okay, start. Stop.

Linda Wawrzyniak
Okay, so that was 1.59.

Greg Voisen
I have not even have got half

Linda Wawrzyniak
So your internal timing runs faster? And so that's all it is. It's just how do we how do we what is our internal timing like? And so sometimes when we're in the middle of a task that comes into play so much, especially during a failure, or uncertainty, or anything else, we just have this that we have some people run fast, some people run slow, some people run just the same. It's very interesting once you see it, so if you have to, so when people are looking at their beliefs, we always look at their timing, because that definitely impacts their belief system. And the third…

Greg Voisen
How would How would me reacting so quickly affect my belief system? It's a great learning experience for the listeners, because I'm faster, yeah. Meaning faster,

Linda Wawrzyniak
You will probably form your beliefs quicker. And one way or the other?

Greg Voisen
And don't throw them away faster too?

Linda Wawrzyniak
Could be yes. Yeah. So that's usually your processing quicker. And so because of that, you're going to determine your subjective probability a lot faster.

Greg Voisen
But I think beliefs that are not serving one, right, we carry around beliefs that don't serve us. Yeah, that can be those are ones to get rid of or adjust as quickly as possible. You're talking about Million Dollar Adjustment, the million dollar adjustment is getting rid of beliefs that are not serving you.

Linda Wawrzyniak
Right. And I think when you when you are quicker, when we have quicker internal timing, it takes a little bit more to see whether or not that's going to shift or not.

Greg Voisen
So that's number two. We've gotten there. We have three more to go.

Linda Wawrzyniak
I'll make these quick. The third one is strategic action, which can be either offensive or defensive. All that means is we're going to initiate it or someone else is going to initiate it. So the fourth one is information synthesis. It's a real nerdy way of saying how much do we see in our inbox? meant, and how can we use that to make a better adjustment?

Greg Voisen
And the last I have to do with the reticular activating system?

Linda Wawrzyniak
Yes, actually it does.

Greg Voisen
Yes, yeah.

Linda Wawrzyniak
And then one is knowledge. So how do we, how do we actually what do we need to know? What do we know? And what do we need to know in order to make an adjustment?

Greg Voisen
Very good. And I think I think for our listeners that, you know, this podcast, if all they did was learn those five steps, they could really make the adjustments, and it's so close in. And by the way, I just need to say this about you, she distilled it down into something so simple, doesn't have to be that complicated. So if you look at those steps, where you repeat those steps, please quickly for the listeners,

Linda Wawrzyniak
Beliefs, internal timing, strategic actions, information, synthesis, and knowledge.

Greg Voisen
It's beautiful. It's, it's wonderful. Now, in your chapter three, you speak about COVID 19 pandemic, and the adjustments that were brought about, and the new normal. And now as of this morning, Pfizer has a pill that's going to be 89%. effective at preventing death. Right. So now we're starting seeing a huge waning, I've been listening to it this morning, big news, news. So in different aspects, like technology, food, music, transportation, and more, you also speak about the relation of adjustment patterns in the transformation that happened, right as a result of COVID. And it's not that we're still not dealing with it. Hopefully, we won't be dealing with it at all much longer. What are the benefits of knowing your adjustment patterns? And as you say, kind of at the height of COVID-19, you know, some of this stuff is going to start to shift now. And I think we were all thinking, Oh, we're in this for years, or maybe we won't be, which would be good. People will get to go back to baseball games and sit in stands and have a beer and a hot dog and enjoy it.

Linda Wawrzyniak
Yeah, that would be nice. I think every looking forward to that. Yeah. Well, you know, COVID-19 is a big shift in and like we talked about do mention like disruptors and drivers. And I would say that it was kind of a disrupter. And it's also been a driver. So people are who are trying to make sense of it all. This is where knowing your adjustment pattern makes a big difference. So let me give you an example. If you are a maverick, so based on our test, and how people scored, we ran, we built lots of algorithms. And we looked at a lot of different things. And we came up with seven basic patterns. There are more and there are nuances. But overall, they're seven, and then we gave them some fun baseball names, because why not wear a baseball. So the Maverick is someone who basically is not afraid they, they they're very driven to succeed, not afraid to succeed. But if there's a slight failure, or a huge uncertainty in the road, they might have some doubt. And that might creep into the way they adjust to the situation. And it might impact their performance. So you throw the curveball of COVID-19 to a maverick. And at first they're going to say, oh, yeah, that's no, you know, that's fine. I'm going to work through that we're going to get through that that's no big deal, blah, blah, you move forward. But then maybe something happens where they see like hospital numbers, or they have someone they know who, who doesn't do well through it. And suddenly, there's doubt or maybe they get it, who knows. And so now that can affect the way they're going to make adjustments going forward. So it has a lot to do with adjustment pattern, whereas maybe a steady Eddy is going to say, Well, I'm just going to do it the way I always do it. I've always kind of worked through it this way. And I'm just going to work through to the same thing this way. So it's very fascinating. When you look at the seven different types of patterns and how people have responded to this. It really follows the same, the same path and the same patterns.

Greg Voisen
So well people can take this assessment at your website, and is it no cost? They want to do the assessment, or am I right or am I wrong?

Linda Wawrzyniak
So in the book, there's actually a free inside the book. There's a it's called an audit. It's a derivative of the one we do in Major League Baseball. Okay, and the reason that the one we do in baseball is because this is a text and the one we do is that a pencil paper based test. So this is as close as you're going to get to the actual test. If you want to take the actual test, then you'd have to schedule for it on the website. It's a it's the one that's used inside the draft in Major League Baseball. So there is a cost with it. Yes.

Greg Voisen
Okay. And what is the cost of my listeners want to do that?

Linda Wawrzyniak
currently the cost is 125. Affordable.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, very affordable. I mean, so you can go to a website and contactor and then you basically can take the test or you can buy the book for whatever it's being sold at Amazon, and take the test yourself in the back of the book. So, if you're going to do it, the books probably going to be a lot cheaper. Yeah. Of course, you know, you know, it's, it's really interesting to see how you related this to baseball, and how, you know, our performance is affected by being resistant to adjustment. And you get a lot of people that are resistant. And I don't know, if you figured out I was a maverick, because you kept talking about a maverick, I've always been a maverick. But I'm also the kind of person that probably lets stuff drop off quicker, and is not as affected by it. Because I've moved forward, I've kind of been a serial entrepreneur. And it doesn't mean it doesn't affect you psychologically, but you're constantly making adjustments. Okay. And in chapter four, entitled, your personal adjustment tendencies, you share the adjustment awareness audit is a great tool, which is what you were just talking about, to help people understand their performance adjustment tendencies. And to make their plan to the next move. Speak with us, if you would. And if there's any more you want to add than what you've already said about the test, you know, if I take this test, and I do and I do it out of the book, what's it going to do for me? What should I pay attention to? And if I was listening right now, and I wanted to spend $125, why would I spend $125, to go get the test?

Linda Wawrzyniak
The difference really is, the audit tool gives you a close idea of your tendencies, it's based on looking at the different patterns and how this one could be closest to the seven. However, if you have a nuance, or you have something, sometimes people see that there could be one or two different types, they're not exactly sure, then at that point, they might want to go and take the actual test, and maybe get a little bit more breakdown a little bit more information on okay, this is actually where I'm at now, the book also talks about that you can train it your adjustment pattern for optimization. So if you're not 100% sure that you're here or here, you might and you have something important that you're trading for, you might want to go the next step, if you're just doing it for general information, it probably won't matter. But it really depends on your goals and how fast you're trying to get to a specific goal. And how big that goal is. So maybe it does matter, just depending on those things.

Greg Voisen
So you've got a chapter about making better adjustments. We've talked about adjustments, now we're talking about better adjustments. And obviously, you can continue to fine tune it's like a dial on the radio, you know, we say they're static, and how you get the static out, I might be talking about the olden days. But their habit is that this is like fine tuning, fine tuning, fine tuning. It's like the adjustment you make to a piano when it's in tune, you know, when it's in tune, and when it's out of tune. And we state that our internal clocks shapes the way we perceive time, rhythm. Coordination, is largely controlled by the brains pulses carried by the nervous system totally got it. And the patterns of behavior we developed over time. So we're carrying stuff that's happened. And we either chose to keep that belief or that set something up, because there's people that have PTSD. You know, you get PTSD as a result from having a traumatic, something happen. And then it keeps replaying because the wiring and firing in the brain is going something triggers it and boom, it's there. Right? What advice do you give our listeners about controlling our internal clock for better focus?

Linda Wawrzyniak
So I'm working with a several young men right now. But they we see a lot of the times that we either overthink something, or we under think it. And when you combine that with an action, it can be a huge success or a huge failure, or maybe it's not as great as what you want it to be. So our brains can either help us or hinder us in the process of what we're trying to do. So by focusing on time, see, we're trained as a society to focus so much on data information, just that we have overloaded, that's what we're focused on. But when you kind of shift and start telling people focus a little bit more on your time, that's new, because we're saying what, wait a minute, what do you mean, yeah, that is going to impact how you use this data, how you use this information, whatever it is that whatever visuals, information or inputs that you're getting, when you start focusing on time versus the amount of information, suddenly there's an execution difference. And that's the difference between leadership and many other things goal set, you know, reaching goals, succeeding in what you're doing. Because time we don't we have learned how to drown out time. And unfortunately, that is to our detriment. Because it really does. There's a beat to how we do things or rhythm to how we do things, and we don't know it anymore. We've lost touch with it. When you gain it back, suddenly, this whole thing opens up. I see it all the time. When I work with people, it's like, so fun to watch the change, because suddenly they go, Oh, now I get it. Now I need to focus on my filming as I do this. And so yeah,

Greg Voisen
They always say that it's in the timing. Right. Yeah. And it's interesting story, because there's a duality about time. There's, you know, I think you bringing up the point to be focused on time is important. And here's a story that I think, a little story that would kind of it correlates. So these Buddhist monks used to come and went to these meditation retreats, and they'd ask them, Well, what is it that you want? Because they'd come over from Asia? And literally, they would say, well, we would like to get a watch. A watch. You know, a watch. You're like, you guys never have had watches. Why is it that you want to watch? Well, they heard that there were watches here in the US. And they have a skeleton at the end of the bed with it, they sleep in, and then they have a watch. And they said, Well, why do you want to watch because you guys aren't so focused on time. And they'll go, that's not true. We're focused on how much time we have left. Interesting. That I was, I was, it's like, the clock is ticking. And it's like, we don't have much time left. So we've got to get these things done. Right. So, you know, I thought, and I was just thinking about that, because it popped in my head when you said, the timing. And I'm thinking, here I am at this meditation retreat, these Buddhist monk, topless monks? And they're saying, I want to get a watch. And you're like, what do you want to watch for? So I can keep track of the time? Not the time that's passed? The amount of time I have left?

Linda Wawrzyniak
Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah, it is. It's like that. That's actually quite interesting story, because I had always picture them more present minded, but that always shows them more future minded, right?

Greg Voisen
Well, they're there. They're focused on actually the watches a reminder, they use it as a not so much they wear it, they actually hang it on the bed post. It's a reminder, it's a symbol of what is left, you know, what, what did we do today? And how much time is left? Not what past? Right? You know, it wasn't about oh, well, eight hours has gone by today, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay, it's reminding the future.

Linda Wawrzyniak
True. Yeah, that's right. Well, we don't none of us really know how much time I have. Not for the point, right. But yeah, make the best of the moment that you have.

Greg Voisen
And most of us are looking at a timepiece. I know, I've had this apple watch for a long time and you get a timepiece. Yeah. And you say, Well, so what is it that clock that's over there is reminding me of how much time has transpired? Not how much time always is left?

Linda Wawrzyniak
That's true. That's true.
Greg Voisen
Because we're looking at the past saying, well, it's 1035 right now. And Linda and I have been on this call for 35 minutes, right, hypothetically, but you know, it, if you think about it in reverse, it's really quite, there's quite a duality, when you start looking at time. And I think your part about focusing on that internal clock is so important. Yeah, if you would mention that we'd had over 10 years of research you said and testing and this, and trials and errors. And can you show the listeners the best piece of advice given to you while you were writing the book, because you did all this research, right? 10 years of research, putting all this stuff together, then putting it in this book, and then conveying this message through this book. So what did you learn?

Linda Wawrzyniak
You know, I was told that to keep it general enough so that you can take what you've learned in research and anybody can use it. And that's what I really attempted to do it. It isn't that easy, to be honest to do that. So I've had to really think through and write and kind of rewrite how Can I make this so that it is general enough, but you can see that that's backed by a lot of research and data. So that's really, that was really a challenge for me. But that was the advice I was given. And I think it's great advice, because there's only a small portion of the population that really wants to know this in super big detail. Most of us just want our lives to be to move in a positive direction, and to be fulfilling and to do things for others. So how can we do that? Well, we all need to know how to make better adjustments. So that that is what my goal was. And I thought that was a great piece of advice. Give as much backing that makes people understand the basics, but make it general enough for everybody. So hopefully, I've done that.

Greg Voisen
You have and I think, you know that. For our listeners, adjustments is a word that's probably overlooked. You know, when you look at this book, The million dollar adjustment? It's like it you're like looking at it going the title? What is the million dollar adjustment? Right? And in even if you took the million dollar part out of it, yeah. And you just said, Life adjustments? Oh, you know, it has a significant meaning for those that are going like, what do I adjustments because we're adjusting every day something's changing. We're, we're moving with what needs to be adjusted, right?

Linda Wawrzyniak
So like, linear, that's for sure.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, totally. not linear. Not. Now, you tell a story, a heartfelt story in the book about Jordan. And, and, and Nat and her husband? Yes. Working through intense grief when they lost two pregnancies back to back. What did this experience teach you about life adjustments as you state in the book, because those are the adjustments we're all dealing with every day, whether it's one pregnancy, two pregnancies, it's somebody who gets sick in our life, it's a child who needs care, it's somebody with PTSD doesn't matter when somebody's lost all their finances, whatever, those things are happening all around us all day. And what did that teach you this this that both pregnancies ended in termination?

Linda Wawrzyniak
Well, first of all, it was such a difficult time. But I I think the biggest thing it taught me was and I had never experienced that personally. So I think any, any woman who's ever experienced pregnancy loss is a rockstar to watch your child lose their child is heart wrenching as a parent, and I don't wish that on anybody. And to and for anyone else that has ever been through that experience. They do it so low, it's they're so lonely in that there isn't a lot of support. So I would like to say that I think any woman that's ever been through that as a rock star, because it is definitely not easy. So luckily, I had tested my daughter, because when I was doing the test the research of all this, I tested my whole family and everybody who I could get my hands on, just for validation. And I found out that my daughter is also a maverick. And so because of that, I knew that when I see her loss, she looked at there's there was multiple layers of loss. And sometimes we just as it comes, we go, that's what happened. But in her case, she also saw it as failure. And so I could, I could understand that because I understand failure very well. Because baseball is a game of failure. And so for me, I tapped into you know how to help her besides being there crying with her loving on her and her husband, there were other things too. And that was that if she's a maverick, then that means that, you know, she talked about failure when she could start talking about she felt like a failure. Again, subjective probability wasn't just one loss that was to last as well. That's how it's going to be probably forever, right? There was this whole subjective probability thing happening. And so really working through that and I and her timing basically stopped and she's a very high energy person. But her timing really stopped. She was heartbroken. And that's what loss and all that can do. So we have to start with the belief system and that in the timing in those situations, we have to work on that. So for her, I told her just do one normal thing a day, just one normal thing a day because we get that timing going again, you know.

Greg Voisen
Well losing a child childbirth like that not once twice, is devastating. But for both the father and the mother a quite a depressing situation depressing meaning, you know, you see many women fall into deep depression. And whether it's counseling, or some of the best thing that can be done is obviously getting them. Because I think they stopped just like what you said, is getting them moving. Right? Whether it's yoga, or it's running, or it's whatever it is, the when the bodies in motion like that, especially for a maverick, and I can speak highly to that. Your sense of creativity starts again, and a child is actually created as a result of creativity. It's a beautiful union, to come together and create a child and basically have that creativity, right. And so, you know, I know it because I've been there, I've been through those bouts being a maverick, so I know what it's like. And I would say, if anything, there's one thing to keep focused on is, how do you highly charge somebody like that, to stay in the creative zone, whether it's a creative outlet through writing, painting, jogging, exercising, doesn't matter what it is, but find the avenues and the outlets, because it then takes your mind off of the loss.

Linda Wawrzyniak
We talked about that. That's the chapter that we talked about a story of when we're talking about joy, because we have to find joy in moments of loss. And it's not easy to do, because you don't feel joyful at all. Because joy, you know, by joy can reset your timing also. And we need to be understanding joy. So I talk about that a lot. Because we need that for our timing, it really keeps our timing in balance. So

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I mean, you know, through this pandemic, you were talking about it earlier on, you know, I lost two brothers not to COVID this last year, and I lost two very good friend. And, you know, there's nothing like finitude to give you a perspective about being here now and being focused. And whatever it is you're trying to accomplish. So your book really points out some very important points that people not only need to be reminded of, because I think they easily forget. And to apply those steps in those steps that you have are so valid. So Linda, if you were to leave the listeners with three key takeaways from our book, A your book, I should say. And I did right the way I said our book, what would they be? And how can you tell them to apply them? What? What advice would you give? What teaching advice would you give about applying them?

Linda Wawrzyniak
The first one is, I think that life is always going to throw you a curveball, so you better prepare for it. Now, why wait until you the curveballs right in front of your face, and start preparing practice through the adjustment processes and prepare, so you can have peace, and that kind of the second one is that no matter what kind of adjuster you are, or maybe you find out that you are through this book, you can improve it and we can have joy and peace. So there's always ways to train that adjustment skill set. And whether that's in you or someone else, it's something that we should always be trying to do. I think the last one is that it's okay to say no to adjustments that you don't feel are right for you. And I talked about that in the chapters or in the book too, because sometimes we come up against a change or something that we an uncertainty that we aren't okay with. So for whatever reason, and those are talked about in the book, the five apps, so just if that's if that happens, sometimes we have to draw a line on adjustment and that's okay.

Greg Voisen
Well, you've summarized it very well. And I think for our listeners, just to let him know, I want to repeat this again, go to Major League consulting.com. To learn more about Lynda and the book, there will be a link to the book on Amazon so you obviously can get the Kindle version or the paperback version of the book. And the test you need to contact Linda through the contact information there and or take the test or assessment just from the book itself. Linda, it's been a pleasure having you on from now. Hopefully I don't mess this up South Bend Indiana, north and south from South Bend Indiana, to you two very close to Notre Dame, which is very important for me To my listeners to know, because Notre Dame is a stone's throw from where she is, I'm sure. Is it? Yes. Yes, exactly. Blessings to you, thank you for being on inside personal growth. Thanks for taking the time to impart your wisdom. And the years that you've spent studying this and then applying it to major league players, major minor league, it doesn't matter who they are applying it out to people. And I would just get from this conversation that, you know, based on the kind of players you've been working with, and the kind of sometimes egos that are out there, that this material is just so valid for them. So thanks for bringing it to them so they can make adjustments. Really, maybe not as much professionally, but personally, so they can have better coping skills.

Linda Wawrzyniak
I love those guys. They're like my son, so I'm sure they are. Yeah, yeah. So anything we can do to help them succeed. That's, that's what I want to do. So I'm pretty…

Greg Voisen
Good for you. Thank you for the work you're doing and thanks for being on the show.

Linda Wawrzyniak
Thanks. Great to spend the time with you and have a great weekend.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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My first podcast interview with Simon was in 2012 when he promoted his book “We First-How Brands & Consumers Use Social Media To Build A Better World,” he then guested again in 2018 for the promotion of one of his courses.

In this  interview with global thought leader, bestselling author and  speaker,  Simon Mainwaring, we discuss how to craft our narratives to transform from an individual “Me” into one equipped to lead a larger “We.”  Don’t miss his empowering words of wisdom about leadership, growth and success in the future.

To learn more about Simon Mainwaring and his new book entitled “Lead with We: The Business Revolution That Will Save Our Future,” please click here to visit his website. You may also visit his website to order the book and claim your bonuses.

I hope you enjoy this engaging and informative interview with author Simon Mainwaring.

 

THE BOOK

Lead With We is a radical reimagining and reengineering of business based on the idea of collectivized purpose, showing how we live, work, and grow together in new ways that restore and protect the social and living systems on which all of our futures depend.

By leading with “we”—putting the collective above the individual, holding the sum above the parts, and emphasizing the importance of the role that everyone plays—you can not only help solve the escalating challenges of today but also unlock extraordinary growth for your business, and abundance on our planet.

Timely and compelling, this book’s message is simple: The future of profit is people’s purpose, aligned. Lead With We not only examines why we must all conduct business differently in order to grow in today’s market, but provides the how—concrete steps any reader, wherever they find themselves in the business hierarchy, can take toward success.

THE AUTHOR

Simon Mainwaring is founder and CEO of We First, a strategic consultancy accelerating growth and impact for purpose-driven brands. He’s a member of the Steering Committee of Sustainable Brands, the Forbes Business Council, and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts.

Simon was a Featured Expert and Jury Member at the Cannes Lions Festival for the Sustainable Development Goals in 2021, host of the ‘Brands With Purpose’ series with Harvard Business School Association of Boston, and his company, We First, is included in Real Leaders list for the Top 100 Impact Companies in the US for 2021 and 2019, as well as a B Corps ‘Best for The World’ Honoree. He was a Real Leaders Top 100 Visionary Leader in 2018, a finalist for the Conscious Company Leadership Awards in 2017, received the MAKE CHANGE, ‘Conscious Leadership’ Award for 2016, and was a finalist for Global Australian of the Year in 2015.

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen and the host ofInside Personal Growth. And joining me from Los Angeles is Simon Mainwaring. And Simon has another new book out, Lead With We the business revolution that will save our future. Simon, Good day to you. Good day to you, Greg, good to see my friend. Oh, it's good to have you on inside personal growth again, and to spend a little bit of time with our listeners, letting them know about your new book. And I'm going to let them know about you. And for all those listening, go to lead with wwe.com That's lead with we.com. There you can order the book. You can also claim your bonuses when you order the book. And you can learn more about Simon and his books. So Simon Mainwaring is the founder and CEO of we first strategic consultancy, accelerating growth and impact for purpose driven brands. He's a featured expert and jury member for the sustainable development goals at the Cannes International Festival for creativity post of brands with purpose series, with the harvest Business School Association of Boston and members of the steering committee of sustainable brands, Forbes, Business Council, and Royal Society of Arts in London. Simon was a real leaders top 50 keynote speaker in the world and was on the cover of the National Speakers magazine. He's been featured in BBC News, The Guardian, Advertising Age Fast Company, and Anke, among others. For Forbes, he writes an influential column called purpose at work. And I would direct you to go to that. His company we first was a real leader, top 100 impact companies in the US, as well as a B Corp. Best for the world's honoree. Simon's first book, we first was a New York Times Wall Street Journal and Amazon bestseller and was named best marketing book of the year by strategy and business. Well, Simon, that's quite an intro. I know you've been a busy man. And again, thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule, to talk about your new book. And I think it's really an important book. And that before we actually started on this podcast, we're talking about the depth of the book, you know, it's really deep. It's got a lot of citations, it's got a lot of stories in it. It's, it's really powerful. And for those of you leaders that are listening, who are serious about actually making an impact in our globe this week, this is very fortuitous. Because right now, we're having the Global Impact leader conference, right. And I know the Queen couldn't attend because of her health and so on. And I know that this is going to be going on is it next week? I think it is next week.

Simon Mainwaring
So you know, these are leaders who are trying to change, climate, trying to change a lot of things in this world that need to be changing. And you did a podcast with me three years ago about your book we first

Greg Voisen
and then that you focus on the importance of purpose. That's kind of been your driver, it's been your driver for brands, it's been your driver for you personally. And I love the story about you missing the call from your mother, when your mother was trying to reach you. And I was actually listening to our own podcast. And that's where I picked up on that story. And for some reason, because of the timezone difference, you guys couldn't connect, and your dad wanted to say goodbye to you. And it was a wake up call for you in your life, I believe that that particular moment for you, because you wouldn't have told that story was a turning point. And I think it is for a lot of people. What do you want to awaken? In leaders that are listening today? With lead with we?

Simon Mainwaring
Yeah, it's a great question. And thanks to everyone who's listening and you know, what happened with me in the passing of my father was that it really was a wake up call to me that I wasn't in alignment with what was true to me. I was doing a job and I was trying different versions of success that really didn't align with what I really cared about what the way skills were best, you know, used for. And it took, sadly, the passing of my dad and missing his call and my mom's message Simon call us when you wake up for me to sort of get out of my own way for the first time and just sit back and go wait a second. What's wrong with this picture? Why am I not happy? What am I meant to be doing? What am I looking for in my life? And I think it was really about finding meaning in my work. It was really about like when you talk to everyone being a leader, you're headed somewhere you've got some direction you've got Some sort of focus, I didn't have it all up till that point. And so I think everyone has the opportunity to find that alignment between who they are and what they do. The other thing I'd say is, you know, it's easy for people to feel hopeless, or helpless, in the face of all these challenges, we face climate and other things. But this is an incredible leadership opportunity. And the great news is that the market is now rewarding those companies, those individuals, those leaders have decided to show up, whether it's the type of company they have, the type of products they make, the contributions they have out in the world, employees will want to work with you, consumers, customers want to buy from you. Investors want to put capital or buy your stock, because they want companies to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem. So we need to lead in alignment with who we are. And if you do that, in your company, the market forces will reward you. And this is this fantastic moment in time where you can drive business growth by solving for some of these challenges.

Greg Voisen
It's so interesting, as you're talking, you know, I get this intuitive hit. Who's the lead? And who's the lag? In other words, if there's the consumer, and the company, in your estimation, as a brand expert, and this wasn't one of my questions, but it popped in my head because consumers have been slower. And companies almost need to take that responsibility. First, I think to set the example. But I know it's a hard question to answer. But in your estimation, through all the statistics you've studied, who's the leader, and who's the lagger? Yeah,

Simon Mainwaring
it's an end. It's not an either or, what I mean is this, you look at some industries and consumers have been at the forefront calling for change, like clean beauty, you know, they want chemicals out of the products, they don't want bad plastic in the packaging, clean food, they want to make sure that it's farm to table organic certified Fairtrade, even look at the auto industry, which over the last 10 years, completely transformed itself from the combustion engine to now all automakers saying that they're committed to automated vehicles. So the consumers in some industries driver, and on the other side of it, some companies drive it and I'll tell you why the companies are driving, it's because the investor class is now at the table, the you know, you've always got to follow the money. If you're not following the money, you know, you're just being naive. And those people that investing money in companies, new young companies, or companies that want to grow in further, they're saying, wait a second, we need your reputation to be defensible in public, we need to make sure you're treating your employees the right way, fair and living wage diversity and inclusion, we want to make sure that you're set up to succeed in the future, in terms of, you know, what climate and all these other issues are going to do to our lives. And so I think we're getting sort of the changes being driven from all sides. And it's a case by case basis. But here's the nice thing, they all connect to each other. So the more consumers want a better for you better for the planet product, the more the investor will put money into that company, the more that company will grow, the more their company grows, they'll meet the demand, the demand will increase, and so on and so on. So it's got this momentum going now. So I think it's, it's all of the above, and it's actually creating its own momentum.

Greg Voisen
On a world order, I would say that what we're seeing from my perspective is for the first time a crossover in the consumers willing to spend more money for a higher quality product that they know, was sustainably created. And it seems like that's what's going on. And there is no one bad guy here. It's just that we, as you say, we're all interconnected. We need to look at this from a global perspective. And you know, the consequences of the pandemic that rippled through the world. You know, they turned leaders upside down everywhere, they've been thrown new challenges and how to operate their business, not only in a sustainable way, but still profitable. Right. From your vantage point, what are the key areas that need to change within business for them to operate in a humane, environmentally responsible and sustainable manner? And you and I say, you call it corporate contingency planning for Earth survival, that we must start now is what you said in the book. And I like the way you put that. But we still have industries, many that are ignoring that call.

Simon Mainwaring
Oh, absolutely. I think the vast majority of businesses business as usual, making money as much as they can, often to the cost of other people or the planet. But here's the reality. Just a couple of facts. You know, the big Climate report that came out a month or two ago, the big headline that we saw all around the world, and the news was Code Red for humanity. Right? You know, so we're really got to pay attention. At the same time, there was another report from Lancet planetary health that came out recently that said, 56% of young people around the world think humanity is doomed. So we don't need any stakes higher than that. We've got to be we've got to pay attention, we've got to be on notice, we've got to change more quickly. But as you said, the vast majority of companies aren't there yet. So what are we going to do? How are we going to solve for this? Well, if you do want to be responsible, you need to look at defining the foundational purpose of your business, why your company exists. I'll give you an example. For Airbnb, their purpose is to create a world where anyone can belong anywhere. They're not in the accommodation business. They're in the universal belonging business, which then justifies why they rent you apartments around the world, why they give you city guides, or music guides, and so on. So you've got to define your foundational purpose, and then on the strength of that purpose, you've got to go okay, what's my supply chain? Like? Who am I working with? What am I making? are they responsible? Are they exposing me to risk? Secondly, you look at your own internal culture and go, Well, how diverse are we? And is their true inclusion? Are we paying a fair and living wage? Then you look at the products you're taking to market and how you're taking them to market? What's the carbon footprint of that, and so on? And then you also look at your community impact work? Like how are you showing up for the people that make your business possible, the communities you serve? So have that foundational purpose, and then look at your supply chain, your company culture, your products, and what you're innovating, and then the contribution you're making out there to the world? And the only other thing I'd say is, why would you do this, it's because it's really going to affect your p&l, your bottom line, your profit, because it's going to affect your reputation, it's going to affect your ability to attract the people you need for your business. It's going to affect your ability to sell to a growing number of conscious consumers, especially young people who say, hey, we want to support companies that are doing good. And it's going to affect your relevance to the future. Because as things get worse, more and more people are going to be looking at every company and saying, Are you part of the problem? Are you part of the solution. So if you get ahead of this now, you can actually leverage these market forces to actually drive your growth, while playing a more meaningful role in terms of solving some of these issues. And the best thing about that, Greg, to the leaders that are listening to this is that you find greater fulfillment from what you're doing. You're doing good work, you're growing your business, that you feel better about yourself as well, in terms of the way you're showing up.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I echo back to workshop. I went two years went two years in Los Angeles. And I remember hearing a speaker from Starbucks, talking about he was the sustainability guy, right. And afterwards, I went up and I talked to him and I said, what specifically is Starbucks doing? And the reason this came up this this morning, I was listening to the president of Starbucks talk about the pandemic and China and the fact they opened up another 678 stores, and now they're having some issues, because obviously, they're not going to be serving coffee in China the way they were. And I said to him, what are you really doing? And you know, I'm a big supporter of Starbucks, I own stock in a company, I buy their drinks and their lattes and whatever. But from what he said then, and what I see now, now, I don't know what's going on underneath. I didn't see a lot of I haven't seen a lot of change. So I'm not saying Starbucks isn't changing. I don't know. All I know is I'm a consumer on the outside coming in, I'm still getting the same cup. I'm still seeing the same stuff. And I don't know what they're doing to recycle

Simon Mainwaring
that. Well, it's interesting. There's two issues there. One is are they doing more, and having interviewed Starbucks for my leadership there for my column, they are doing amazing things in terms of investing in the local communities diversity and inclusion, catastrophe pay for employees during COVID. And if you look back over the last 10 or 15 years, they address same sex marriage, free education for veterans employment for refugees, post traumatic stress disorder, so many issues that played a very vocal role in which is great. But the second issue that you're really speaking to here is how well are they communicating that to you, that customer buying their cup of coffee every day? Right? Is that clear? And you might recall back in 2015, they did this campaign around racism to really drive the dialogue around inclusion and Diversity, and it backfired. You know, people got very upset that their barista was talking to them about a very sensitive and complex issue around race. Right. And that was a sort of cautionary tale for all of business out there. Be careful what you say and how you say it. But they leaned into that, since they've learned their lessons and many other companies and are speaking to issues like this, like, just think about a great like p&g, one of the biggest consumer packaged goods companies in the world that make all the washing powder and everything we all use. They've got this big global campaign called the look, which is all about racial bias, and how people white people look at people of color or for multicultural backgrounds, super sensitive issue. But a big company like that that's publicly traded, with a lot of scrutiny said, Listen, we just got to show up. So the larger point here is that you're right, companies need to do a better job of sharing that the good work they're doing in a way that isn't preachy to the right, right. But at the same time, they have to be bold enough to wade into these issues, gun control, women's empowerment, same sex, marriage, all of these things. It's all on the table. Now. I mean, look at voting rights in Georgia, and all the companies that waded in the climate crisis, there is no division between business and culture at large now.

Greg Voisen
Well, what I can say is that from a consumer standpoint, I do see them jumping in the deep water. Yeah. And that's a good sign. And you know, you state that your book has three parts. Yeah. And for all those of you who are serious, who are leaders, you need to get the book. And these parts will elicit a mindset of methodology based on three world prescriptions lead with we can you speak about this to our listeners, and in the context, use the virtuous spiral, which has been motivated, motivated by service and purpose, or you say service oriented purpose is what you said. And I think that spiral in the book is a great diagram. And hopefully, what I can do is have my assistant, this podcast for all those of you who are watching, take the screenshot and put this spiral up, because it's better to see it than it is to try and talk about it.

Simon Mainwaring
Yeah, I'll try and speak to it effectively, as well. But here's the thing, if you're listening to this podcast, are you worried about the future? For yourself, for your kids for your business? Are you worried about the amount of carbon in the air or chemicals in the soil or plastics in the ocean? I think most of us are now it's in the news every day, it's almost impossible to ignore. So I tell him, that's what kept me up at night over the last three or four years, like, I don't think businesses moving far enough, fast enough to solve for these issues, especially because business created half of these issues. And so what are we going to do? And I really took a step back and said, What's the problem here, and the problem is, the whole, like, the natural systems are breaking down the environment, biodiversity, the ocean, plastic, and the social systems are breaking down, you know, social inequity, disparity of wealth, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement, so that the hole is breaking down, which means the parts can't thrive. And this is my big issue brands can't survive in societies that fail. So what are we going to do? We need to restore those systems, those larger systems, the natural world and the social systems that make our lives our businesses our success possible to do that says three things have to happen. One, you, Greg, I, Simon, we have to choose to lead. What does that mean? We cannot wait for a billionaire or one company or one industry or one government to fix the future. We've been trying that for decades, and we haven't got there. And we're out of time. We've got about 10 years before there's a real cascading effect to all of these problems. So we've got to look and say, well, if we're all in this mess together, because we all made individual actions that led to this mess. We're all going to have to do something different to get out of it. The same way that we're all doing something different with COVID. You're at home, I'm working from home, we wear masks and we go out. We're showing up differently because of the conditions we're in. What does that mean? Okay, me individual Simon, a dad, a son, you know, husband, I've got to think about what car I drive. Is it putting carbon in the air or is it not? I've got to think about what products I buy. Is it a good for you good for the planet brand? Okay, great. I'll buy that. How much meat am I going to have in my diet or not? Because that can really help I'm going to serve me am I going to have a blend of plant based and so on? Where am I putting my money? What bank Am I putting it in? Because those banks invest in certain companies that they companies we want to see succeed? Are they actually part of the problem? Where am I putting my pension dollars or my 401k Okay, every aspect of your life just should no longer be unconscious choice. It should be, hey, I'm not hopeless here, I can do something, I can use my dollar, my job, my investments, everything to vote for the future I want. So we've all got to lead. That's a number one shift in mindset instead of just sitting back and hoping it gets better, because it weren't. So you know,

Greg Voisen
Can I can I insert here? You know, we're going to get into talking about capitalism here in a minute, because these are some of where my questions are going. And the new form of capitalism. But you brought up a point to me around consumption ism. You know, I'm thinking about Greg Mackinnon and his book and the minimalism and we've got a whole movement around that. Yeah. And you know, the younger generation isn't as much. Now, I know, statistics will prove otherwise. But you would like to think that they're not about consumption as much consumption. But isn't it? You know, when you look at the US, which is, I think you cited in the book, I don't know what the number is exactly. You can tell me. But we can serve, consume most of the natural resources of the world, as a country, right? What's wrong with that model? Well mean, that if you're going to have some kind of equal ism, and you're going to try and help the world, like Bucky Fuller said, you know, if I wrote a chapter in a book that was written not that long ago, around Bucky, what are what are you going to do?

Simon Mainwaring
Yeah, there's a couple of problems in there. You're right. One is most of us in business don't factor in what they call natural capital, which is what's the cost of the what you're taking from the environment, both now and in terms of the future of the environment, because we all depend on them. And that's not factored in. And there and the reality is, if you actually factored in the natural capital costs of what it takes to make most products, everything we buy, most companies wouldn't be profitable. They wouldn't be they've written it out of it. So that's one thing. The second issue you mentioned, is different regions around the world here in the US, we take more of those natural resources and so many other countries. You know, it's hard, because there's a lot of emerging, there's a lot of countries with an emerging middle class, like India, and Brazil and China that are kind of like, wait a second, we've been providing for you all of these years. You got all the spoils, you got all the goods in the stuff of capitalism, and it's come at the cost of us, right? Yeah,

Greg Voisen
I get it. No, I get it. We're all interconnected that this, this is a big internet. And it's the it's the web of life, what one person does in one part of the world can affect it can ripple out what we do here ripples out. And you know, you mentioned that we must expand on stakeholder capitalism. Yeah. You tell a great story about Marc Benioff, the founder of Salesforce, I thought it was a great story. But I've followed mark for a long time. Would you mind telling the story about what he told the attendees at the Davos 2020 conference? And his mindset about capitalism? And what will help to alter, you know, kind of what's referred to as the devastating course of destruction that will ripple through the world. And you might also mention when you're talking about this, the corporate ecologist also speak about Bucky Fuller's world game, as stated in the 1960s. You know, he used to said, If we he used to say, and I know, you'll remember this, if, because I was a big follower of what he was doing. If we put less money and weaponry and more money in living. Those were the terms he used living a weapon where we could feed the world's global population. And he was talking about numbers greater than what we have today.

Simon Mainwaring
Yeah, absolutely. And just to finish that last question, the first of the three was to lead. The second was to with, which is when you're leading, think about your impact in terms of having the greatest amount of collaboration you can, what is the widest number of people, you can work with a nonprofit, even a competitor, other people in your community, see how the breadth of your width, I like that, yeah, make sure that you're expanding who you're working with to have an impact. And then the third level is the week, which is, let's make sure that when you plan to have an impact in the way that your business shows up, let's make sure we affect as many lives as possible, and the planet in a positive way. So it's a really, really simple tool that you can use in your business every day. When you go to make a decision. You go, how do I lead as in how do I choose to lead with as many people as possible to benefit people on the planet on the greatest scale? And then do a question about stakeholder capitalism. You know, it's and Marc Benioff is not many of us. Yeah, yeah, so stakeholder capitalism is really a big, a big conversation right now where it used to be all just about the shareholder, you know, businesses doing great if we're just giving lots of money back to the shareholder. But now the conversation has moved across and said, Hey, we've actually got to consider all stakeholders, which is includes the environment includes communities includes not just your customers, but everyone that your business affects. So this is a really powerful dialogue. The folks like Larry Fink of Blackrock and the Business Roundtable CEOs and map Nef have been driving, I've got one problem with it. And I'll and that'll lead me to Marc Benioff. Too often when people talk about sharing the rewards of capitalism with a wider number of people beyond just the shareholder, they only talk in terms of rewards, they don't talk about sharing responsibilities. And I don't think we're going to get out of this mess unless we all see that we're responsible, and we've all got to show up differently. But what Marc Benioff said at Salesforce, really is that we don't have an economic or business crisis, we have a leadership crisis, he was saying that we need CEOs, we need founders, we need solopreneurs. To decide they want to do business differently. And in face it in so sorry, Salesforce, this case, they've got a platform called ohana, where 1% of their profits, 1% of their time, 1% of their products, and so on, are donated to the impact work that they want to do. So that's their particular model for how they show up in the world. And all he's saying to all of us is not just that you've got to do good. If you want to drive business growth, if you want to build your reputation, if you want to get the staff, the talent, the employees you need. If you want customers to buy your stuff, you're going to have to show up in the world differently. And so what the book lays out is really a blueprint for how you do that at a leadership level, at a company culture level, at a product level, at a marketing level and at a community impact level, and pulls it all the way through, as you say, going through this spiral. And so it's a blueprint that any business can follow based on all of our 10 years of work with Tom's and timberland. And so many companies, we just put it all into the book my team that we for, so you've got it right there, and you can follow the spiral is just imagine this in your mind's eye, an arrow pointing up, let's go we took me at the bottom where we focused, and we're at the top, where were we focused, and we've got to go from being solely focused on ourselves, because things are breaking down to the collective, how do we make sure the natural world that communities can thrive the week and around that arrow is a spiral. And as you go up the spiral, these are all different levels, where you can have a positive impact us an individual, which I spoke about you as a leader, inside a company as a solopreneur, whatever it might be, you know, you choose to lead, then you've got the culture of the company, how can you work collaboratively to provide solutions that have a positive impact? Then you've got the community level with your customers and your consumers? How do you build movements that are going to have a positive impact? And then you've got the societal level? Which is what do you care about? Is it race is a women's empowerment? Is it mental health? Like? How can you help drive the dialogue that will shape culture and make things better? And why am I suggesting all of this, if we all in our own companies just do a little bit of good, we're not going to get there. Because it's not connected? All of these efforts aren't connected, they're not compounding the same way our problems are compounding. So how do you grow your business, by expanding the way you're thinking about having an impact, so that you can work with more people accelerate your impact scale awareness of what you're doing. And then these market forces, employees, investors, consumers say, hey, we want to invest in you, we want to work with you for you know, for you, we want to buy from you because of the way you're showing up in the world. And so the book just takes you through that whole process. So you can apply it to your business. And one thing I'll say here, Greg is unlucky enough in the work we do with smaller large companies to see what's coming, because you're in the boardroom all the time, and you see the patterns. And here's what I see coming. These issues that we've got to solve for climate and so on. They're all getting bigger in the future, and they're coming back towards us in the present. And right now, we're all hearing this dialogue about business doing more good. And it's kind of going up slowly. But soon, it's going to go vertical, it's going to be a hockey stick, because these issues are so real and present in our lives. So if you want to grow your business, if you want to be on the right side of those market forces and get pushed forward to get extra growth as more consumers investors, and you know, suppliers, they all want to, you know, collaborate with companies like this You've got to start committing to that now to build your bottom line to build your profits, but also to have a positive impact. So that's what I see coming, it's only going to get more important.

Greg Voisen
So let me ask you this, because you know, as a guy who has been dealing with brands and advertising and trying to get the word out, yeah, I feel that. My sense is intuitively, you look at what's going on at Facebook right now and Instagram, you look what's going on with Mark Zuckerberg and you look what's being put out there. And the noise, I call it the noise you call it whatever you want. Um, there, there has been even in the major networks, you know, I don't care if you call it NBC, CBS, FOX, all of them a complete breakdown of responsibility, right, to actually feed because this world actually does. And emotionally, people react based upon what these media networks put out. Yeah. And I think they have been less than responsible. Less than I don't want I don't know how to say it. I just think it's a crime. It's an actual crime. That is being portrayed. And there's so many followers, not people that have risen above that yet, that you have this mass consciousness moving in this direction. I'm not trying to paint a dark picture. What I'm saying is, who's doing something about one of the most powerful conglomerates in every country, which is the media and you are kind of on the outside part of that. Fortunately, there are people like you that are writing books to say, Wake up, hopefully you should be giving this to Mark Zuckerberg.

Simon Mainwaring
Yeah, it's interesting. Mark and I have spoken at the Cannes Festival Advertising Festival together the same year. You know, I spoke before him but Facebook is in trouble and with good reason. And I wrote a book about how brands and consumers

Greg Voisen
Mata Mata meta, meta

Simon Mainwaring
meta is in trouble. A lot of the company Facebook didn't exist within.

Greg Voisen
I heard that announcement yesterday. It was like meta, what does? Yeah, well,

Simon Mainwaring
that's a whole wormhole. But yeah, they're in trouble. Because I don't know the way Instagram is affecting young women, you know, and how they see themselves and their body and all of these different things. And here's the problem with social media, Facebook, Instagram, and others to some degree, but Facebook and Instagram really been challenging. They have so distorted your perception of reality, my perception of reality, everyone's perception of reality, that we can't even agree on what world we all live in, you know, you've got people at extreme ends of conversations, because all the data that they put out is then reinforced by what they get back. And they get more and more set in their ways, and everyone gets polarized. So how are we going to solve for our future when we can't even agree on what reality is? That's a real problem? What do we do about it? You know, well, you know, they're up on the hill now. And they get it. They're getting challenged, everyone's talking about, you know, breaking them off, and so on. But also it's on us. Yeah, a lot of people like good example, Patagonia, which is a very purposeful brand, and very well known yesterday, boycotted Facebook and called for other brands to do it as well. Why? Because there's What does Facebook revenue come from? Where does it come from? Advertise all these advertiser advertising dollars. So again, it comes back to whether we all want to lead, you know, do we actually participate in demanding that there are changes? Or if you want to step away from Facebook? Do we vote for people who want to change these regulations and so on, although the political process has been really frustrating, but I think, you know, they're in real trouble and a name change won't be a silver bullet. I think it's really about the heart and soul of a brand. And you know, you're a business owner, I'm a business owner, everyone listening works in a business or has a business of their own. How are you going to show up in the world? That's what you're going to be judged on? And not because that's the way the world should be. But because we're in crisis, because we've got all of these issues, whether it's Greece on fire, or Australian bushfires, or California bushfires or floods in Europe, plastic choking the oceans, so many people not doing well, and a very small number of people doing very well. We're reaching a breaking point. Yeah, and increasingly, we're going to have to fix it. We're going to have to fix it. And the question is not why we know why. Now, the question is how so I, I spent three years codifying all the ways that we see that it works to drive business growth, to build your business by solving for these issues. And that way, if you do it, if I do it, if we all do it, just imagine what we can achieve more quickly, you know,

Greg Voisen
where your movement is important and you know Let's talk about the dark side of capitalism and how does it need to change to be more inclusive of humanity? You cited a book The Myth of capitalism by Jonathan Tapper and Denise Hearn. And, you know, you say, we're hardly free. You know, you have all these immigrants coming thinking, Okay, we're going to move to the United States of America, because it's free. But it's better than what they have. So when you look at the rest of the world, they wouldn't be migrating here, if they didn't think or believe it was better. Yeah, and that capitalism is kind of masqueraded. You said, as democratic. fair, just, but really? Not, you know. Um, so can you address that? I thought that I'm actually going to go get that myth of capitalism book, by the

Simon Mainwaring
way. Yeah, yeah. I mean, um, you know, these are all very highly respected academics, that all the institutions we know, like Harvard, and so on. And basically, a couple of things. There's the idea of capitalism that we all think we have, but capitalism has changed dramatically over the years from the Adam Smith or the Milton Friedman days to Reagan economics to you know, where we are today, you see it as a function of political parties, and so on. So it's not this static thing. Yet, at the same time, there is a pot of people that sort of wants to just defend the idea of capitalism, it's our way of being in the world as if it's pure and serving everybody equally. And it's, you know, unquestionable, but it's not have a look at the, you know, the top 10 people in the world now earn more wealth than half the population on the globe. Look at the disparity of wealth in the US that's increasing. Look at the lives and the quality of life and the opportunity that people of color and multicultural communities have, as opposed to, you know, white people look at access to voting rights, look at all of these issues that are interrelated. And you know, what Denise was really talking about was, you think it's free? Like it all turns on the free market? Like it, you can, there's no, you know, there's competition, the person who does the best job, you know, wins the market share, they get the rewards. But the reality is, is that most industries are dominated by monopolies, sometimes four, or five, six companies, sometimes just one or two companies, like in the poultry industry. Now, there's one or two companies that are in charge of over 90% of all poultry in the US and around the world. 90%, you know, so how free is it for competition, and so on. And that's just one example of many. So the point is, the idea of capitalism, or what we all hoped it would do in all our lives, is very different from the reality of practice of it, which increasingly says a smaller and smaller number of people. And one thing I'll observe, and I've been, I'm a US citizen, and I've been here for 24 years now in the US, I think the US system or the way capitalism is practice right now is very unforgiving in the sense that if you get on the wrong side of the system, where you have a huge medical bill, and you can't pay it, or you lose your job, where you can't leave me the mortgage payment, you get on the system rewards you when you're always in a good situation to pay your bills and keep growing and adding to the equation. But if something goes wrong, very quickly, you can start to slide down a slippery slope, where you can't get your credit score back, or you can't get insurance, or you can't get a car. Do you know what I mean? It can be really, really problematic. Yeah. So we're talking about the idea of it versus the reality. And I'm a diehard capitalist. And I think capitalism can do a better job of serving more people. Well,

Greg Voisen
along that line, like over the years, we've seen Microsoft, we've seen Google Amazon, you know, they the government says there are monopolies. Now, I don't know the solution to this. But I do understand that because of the structure and the technology and what they have. It's very difficult to break all those apart. Right. And that seems to be where our Congress is headed is from a governmental standpoint, let's intervene and let's see if we can break it apart. Wow. You know, they will defend themselves like crazy. So, you know, you have worked extensively and building company brand throughout your careers. You cite several stories in the book of companies that almost ruined their brands, armour, Kevin Plank. The my pillow guy, Mike Landau, just decided a few because of their support for Trump. Not just Trump, but really Trump economically all about

Simon Mainwaring
politics. It's about issue.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. Right. And so you state that the opposite of neutrality is aiming at personal, purposeful, collaborative and packed on important problems, what are some of the companies that in your estimation, are working towards solving what seemed to be some of the unsolvable environmental and social problems? And you cited Timberlands, nature's needs heroes campaign is one of them. But there's many. There's a lot of companies which have taken your lead, you know, lead with we, and are doing good. You said Patagonia a few minutes goes is banning Facebook. Yay, yay. I didn't know that. You know, I haven't been on Facebook for 10 years. So I don't even know what it's like. But tell me a little bit more about where you see that trend. Because you said you're sitting in these boardrooms. And hopefully in those boardrooms, you're seeing an evolution of campaigns like these, which are not just whitewashed to get. Yeah, purpose washing, just to get people to believe that they're doing good. Because believe me, I've been in those boardrooms too. And some of those campaigns are not on purpose. No, yeah, they're on target to sell more stuff. Exactly. Exactly. And

Simon Mainwaring
you're right, I think you will ought to be naive to think otherwise, there's always going to be a sliding scale between those who just don't give a damn. Those who are just playing at it, purpose washing, paying lip service to it. And those who are doing it for real, is the good news. Not only will it be consumers, the call them out on the media, but it'll be employees and investors just look in the last year or two employees in and of themselves, writing open letters to leadership at Google, Facebook, and Amazon over a lack of response to climate crisis, pay scales and gender bias. So it's not even people outside attacking you for being disingenuous. It's your own people. And literally this week, just a few days ago, 1400 employees at McKinsey, one of the biggest consulting firms in the world, his clients include everyone wrote a letter to leadership, complaining about how they servicing clients that are creating the climate crisis. So inside every company is a very awake and aware group of employees who are saying you better be accountable for what you do. And so what you're seeing now is that every leader if you're if you're listening to this, and you're a founder or solopreneur, or a CEO of a large company, you're facing a choice, not just to address one issue, but multiple issues. I mean, just think about the last year we had black lives matter. climate crisis COVID, everyone in a leadership position, including me was like, Oh, my God, what do we do? We've got all of these issues going on? What do we say about Black Lives Matter? Are we diverse? Can we say something? So what do you got to do? It says, Here's two steps I'm going to give you for all of our work with these large companies. You've got to get table stakes, right? What do I mean by table stakes, these are just the basic things that any company has to get right to be defensible in public, to have a social license to operate, they have the goodwill of their customers, employees, the first issue got to be look at your sustainability of what you make and how you make it. The second thing you got to look at is your diversity and inclusion and make efforts to be truly representative of our culture and society. The third thing is you got to pay a fair and living wage. And you've seen all of these companies go $15 $17. Now $20, the restaurant industry and so on, they're the table stakes, then you've got to look at these issues and say what is other larger issues and go what is relevant and appropriate to us? I'll give you an example. Harry's razors, it's a subscription thing to buy razors, I buy their razors, full disclosure, I subscribe.

Greg Voisen
They're in Costco now. Yeah, right, right. I mean, I'm I passed by the display the other day, and it's like Harry's razors,

Simon Mainwaring
Harry's razors. Well, here's what they did. I mean, a lot of people during COVID, were making PPE face masks and all of that. But they said, Well, we could do that. But what's more true to our brand? And they thought about it and said, Well, who's our audience, our audience, a young men? And what? How can we help them? Well, young men have a high incidence of suicide and people know. And that increased during COVID, because they lost their jobs and their hopes and so on. So they partnered with the Crisis Text Line, to provide mental health support for young men during COVID. And all of their communications were to men who were struggling with self-esteem, anxiety, fear, grief, and that was what they focused on. So that's not only meaningful, but it's authentic to their brand. So my larger point here is, if you've got a company of any size, sustainability, diversity, and fair living wage, and then look at those issues that are most relevant to you, you don't have to address everything because that just looks like you're lugging, you know, plugging a cause in on top of your brand. You've got to do something that's to you. And last comment on this, Greg would be, as things get worse, and as there's more challenges we face the expectation on companies on leaders to respond will increase. So how you respond what you say when you say it is something I really explore in the book, because it doesn't matter, you're going to go home and your wife or your daughters will say, like I do, what difference are you making? Your customers will say, Well, what are you going to do about this? Your employees are like we care about this. How are we showing up? You've got to be ready for this?

Greg Voisen
Well, it's, you know, you said as soon as the line you're in those boardrooms, and you see it, and you see that exponential change, obviously, this stuff is going to start to smack them in the face. It is. And it is now it's question is what are they doing with I just decide a small example I do consulting for a company with 110 or so employees. And it's a maintenance company that does keep your lawns clean, and actually big associations. All electric, Moore's all electric blowers run solar on their roof, all within the last three months. So what you see there is a small business owner who really exponentially saw the problem and decided to make a change. Right, not to say that the state of California in two years is banning, although I did

Simon Mainwaring
say that they bought it back delete flows. They're planning all of it. But that's a really good point, Greg, it shouldn't just be about doing good. It should be about building your business. Yeah,

Greg Voisen
yeah. Well, more customers will buy from him now. Yeah. So you mentioned that we are in continual transformation from the individual, me into one equipped to lead larger through the regenerative future, you call it that we must first craft a narrative? I love this part. Because the narrative that's going on in the minds of people, is it about restoration and renewal? And how would you recommend that a business owner listening right now? recraft their own narrative? Yeah, it's the stories we're telling ourselves most of the time that are making up the world that we live in. So you've got to recraft the narrative?

Simon Mainwaring
Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. And firstly, if you want to go to business, and you want to sell your products, you got to do marketing. And marketing is really just storytelling, because we're all still human being sitting around campfires, telling stories, whether it's through the web, social media, AI, whatever, but we're also telling stories to each other. And that, that helps people decide if they like your brand, they want to buy a product, it's just fundamental to being in business. The larger story or narrative of business needs to change from profit, for profit sake, Gradius, good, you know, and all those things that we know, too, we're in this together, and we need to restore and regenerate the natural world, the social systems that make our businesses possible, if they break down, we will not survive. So this is very self interested. And so I think of it this way, business needs to become a movement to restore these systems, and then your company, my company, every company can then do its own individual effort that's specific to you. But then business of large becomes a movement of movements, every individual company has a different role to play. And this isn't just my opinion, whether it's Marc Benioff, Adele, Davos, as you mentioned, or Larry Fink that manages the largest money management firm in the world, BlackRock, or whether it's 181, CEOs of apple and, and JP Morgan, Chase, and others, all calling for a reengineering of capitalism. Everyone sees the writing on the wall. And so we're all we've gone from that, why to that, how we've gone from now, like, Well, how do we actually drive growth? How do we get the most out of employees? How do we sell more product in a way that's actually going to solve for these issues. And so you've got to define your foundational purpose. As I said, your marketing should express that purpose. And then everything inside your company, from your supply chain, to your culture, to your products, to your marketing to your community impact should be in line with that. And the more you do it, the more you're going to unlock interest and you'll build the bottom line of your business.

Greg Voisen
You know, you cited an article that appeared in The Washington Post written by Stephen Pearlstein, the title of it was 2020 Moral capitalism, why fairness won't make us poor. Again, that goes along with this capitalism we're talking about what thoughts would you like to leave the listeners with about moral capitalism and the benefits that it have on solving many of the economic, social and environmental challenges and why and leading with we will help us in manifesting this new world In order that we need to create to solve these challenges, because, you know, I think most people still have the belief that, you know, under moral capitalism. It is. That is the that was the article, but that capitalism isn't moral.

Simon Mainwaring
His book is just over there it is just over there. Yes. I mean, here's the thing, we did get to a point where capitalism, the way it was being practiced, wasn't more. I mean, we saw the global economic meltdown in 2007 2008. We see all the different ways that people are suffering right now, they got almost exposed even more during COVID. Like, if you are suffering already, you saw them suffer even more, which is just terrible. And then in the headlines, every day, we look at the news, and we go, there's that CEO do something bad. There's that company over there, just, you know, doing things that hurt us. And after a while, you're like, wow, capitalism isn't moral. It's amoral. And what Steve and others have said, and like Rebecca Henderson, from Harvard, in her book, reimagining capitalism, and what I talk about and lead with weed, is that it doesn't have to be that way. The whole idea of capitalism is to create prosperity, wealth, success, but it can also mean that it includes regenerating, restoring sustaining the natural environment and our communities. And for a long time, it did that. But it got Scott got distorted, and it became about, you know, a smaller, smaller number of people making more and more money. And you see that people are upset about that, right now you see it in all the press and so on, we've got a course correct, not because we suddenly woke up and grew a conscience that because you know, your business won't survive. If everything breaks down. It doesn't matter how much money you have, if the society is collapsing, so much so that people are looking to other planets, the billionaires to go and whatever, right. So what do we do? In my opinion, the solution needs to be really simple and practical that everyone can use. And this is based on 10 years of doing this work for all companies, you know, so it's really grounded in real world experience, we all have to choose to lead consciously on our own path in terms of how you show up as a leader, how your company shows up the products you make the impact you have on the environment. If your inaction is a choice, you are complicit in the problem. If you are not part of the solution, we're at that point. Now. I'm sad to say it, but we're at that point, now, you have to lead. You have to look at who you can lead with. And I'll give you an example. There's an apparel company called prana. It's been around 30 years, but it's a small company. They said we're going to fix the way that we ship our product, because it's so much plastic. We don't have any plastic. And I was on a panel with the VP of marketing of them last night.

Greg Voisen
Weren't they actually taken over by the guys that own the luggage company? They used to be here in Carlsbad? Prana?

Simon Mainwaring
Yeah, prana product. So yeah, what they did was they changed the way they folded ship their product. And they got 10 million plastic bags out of their supply chain, just by junior beautiful. So they then said, why don't we open that up to everyone in the industry share all our secrets, they now have in just over a year's time, 105 companies brands signed on including Sephora. Now, just think about that 10 million bags, times 100 companies, what impact are you making exponential, right. So that's an example of the width. So you got to choose to leave, you've got to choose what beat lead with as many other stakeholders as you can, not just those closest into you, your employees, your suppliers, your customers, but as many as you can, even competitors. And then you've got to focus all your attention on serving the greatest we in the sense of the greatest number of people and the planet on which we depend. And it's a very, very simple decision making tool, whether you're in payroll, you're the CEO, whether you're in marketing sales, you can sit there and go, Okay, well, I'm thinking about this decision, how can I lead? How can I lead with the greatest number of people like with? And how can I have the greatest impact in terms of the wheat. And if we all start to do that great. We can this connective tissue between what you do what your listeners do, what I do can start to really compound the impact we have. But here's the important bit, it will build your business. My book walks through a step by step roadmap for what you do at each level of your business to deliver on that promise to lead with we and then the market forces and all the data is there and all the proof points and all the examples so you can see how it works. This is like 10 years of experience that my whole team we will be put it in the book so as many people as possible can have it so that you can get Do good, solve the issues that you care about. But do it in a way that will build your business. And I'm telling you hand on my heart as someone who lives and breathes this every day, the sooner you do this, now, the more you'll be on the right side of where business and society is headed. Because we've got it, we've got to solve for these issues. And the further ahead, you'll be pushed in terms of growth, reputation, your company culture, and you'll really, really benefit. So

Greg Voisen
yeah, it actually takes somebody like you doing that. And I was just want to say, thank you for that. Because this is, you know, this is the Bible for a business purpose and business leaders to follow their purpose, and to define their purpose. And I think the important thing is, is that you've given them a step by step guide to do that, Simon, and I want to acknowledge you for that. Because like you said, 310 years of working at this, but three years in between the first book in this book. So obviously, you guys have been working on this, just this book three years. Yeah. And kudos to you because it is and what I'm going to say to all my listeners, please, please, if you're in leadership, go get this book, enjoy reading it, and then apply the steps that Simon has put into the book.

Simon Mainwaring
Yeah, I think you it's, it is a blueprint, I thought, there's no point writing a book, no one wants to write a book, all it does is take all of your spare time, right? You know, that great. I wrote the book to give you the step by step plan to follow based on our experience, and I would ask one favor, buy the book for yourself, because it really will position you for growth and success in the future. And that the fulfillment that comes with making a difference, which we all want for ourselves, the Think of somebody else in your life, and another company or a leadership position or an entrepreneur, and you think, wow, they would really benefit from this, I think this would interest them, and get it into a second pair of hands. Because we've got a window of time for business to show up differently, and to help you know, address these issues that are going to impact our future. So we got to go fast, or be like me, I'm like really make a difference. If you do that, get into someone else's hands as well. I'm

Greg Voisen
going to say be like me and go buy a case of these books. So I'm going to commit to getting a case. So thank you for being on the show. Thank you for spending your time and imparting your knowledge as a thought leader in this area and wisdom to help people take these steps. And I think, you know, initially, I'd love to see you doing more webinars, seminars, courses, whatever. Because sometimes people won't just follow the words in a book. They have to be encouraged, but I know that's to come. I know that is to come. Yeah. Thanks for being on inside personal growth.

Simon Mainwaring
Thank you, Greg. And thank you for your guidance as to what it means to be a leader really, really appreciate it.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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My guest on this podcast is Angel Millar,  the author of a new book entitled  “The Path of the Warrior Mystic Being A Man in An Age of Chaos.”

Angel is a well-known lecturer on Freemasonry, initiation, and esotericism as well as an artist and student of the martial arts. In this interview, we discuss about cultivating your body, mind and spirit to become the archetypal higher man.

If you want to discover how to overcome the obstacles to become more of ourselves and to express our true self, I encourage you to listen to this very interesting interview.

To know more about Angel, his works and his books, please click here to be directed to his website.

I hope you enjoy this enaging and informative podcast with Angel.

THE BOOK

The Path of The Warrior-Mystic: Being A Man In An Age of Chaos will be released by Inner Traditions in November 2021. In it, I explore the challenges facing men today, how to overcome them, and how to develop yourself as a man.

As the title suggests, the book itself sets out a path of self-realization. Moving from an understanding of the warrior and chivalry, the book’s journey leads the reader to becoming both the creator of his own life and an example to others.

Along the way, we explore ancient mythology, psychology, philosophy, meditation, dealing with stressful situations, turning disadvantages into advantages, and sex, among other things.

THE AUTHOR

Born and raised in England, I developed an early interest in religion, spirituality, and mysticism, and fell into the alternative spiritual world of that country at around the age of seventeen. While I learned many types of meditation and related consciousness-based techniques of self-transformation, I nevertheless rejected much of what I saw.

By the age of twenty, I had become interested in both Eastern and Western spirituality and soon began staying in a Benedictine monastery on an annual basis. Around the same time, I was also studying fine art and Nam Pai Chuan Shaolin Kung Fu. (You may have noticed that these pursuits can be aligned to the three archetypal vocations of craftsman (fine art), Kung Fu (warrior), and meditation and an interest in religion and spirituality (magician or sage).

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from New York is Angel Millar. Hi Angel, hopefully I said your last name correct? Sorry. Yes, you did. Perfect. Good. Angel has a new book out. And the book is called the path of the warrior mystic, being a man in an age of chaos. And boy, have we had our chaos lately, I think an appropriate book to have out right now. What I would like to do angel is let the listeners know a little bit about you. Angel is a well-known lecture on intuition, symbolism and self-development, as well as an artist and student of the martial arts. He is the author of several books, including this three stages of initially attic, I always want to get that brace, okay, spirituality. And he lives in New York. And you can find out more of bout Angel by just going to his website. It's Angel noir.com. And that's m I, L, L, A R. And there you will see more about his books about Kim, about what he's doing. And it's a pleasure having you on the show. Because, you know, you write a lot about I'm going to call it history in this book. And you get into a lot of characters that some of the people listening today, even though who follow spirituality may or may not know. My sense is that you're very deep in this area. And I think that's a good thing because it pushes people's opportunity to explore not just their intellect, but their spirituality. And if you would tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and why your personal focus on wanting men to find a path to this warrior mystic. You know, I've had other gentlemen on here speaking about masculinity recently, in today's world, and how it's so confused.

Angel Millar
Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah, very much. So. Well, to go into my background first, I became interested in spirituality a little bit when I was around the age of 15. So that was quite young. And I bought a book on astral projection trading, I didn't really understand it entirely. But when I was 17, I came across a kind of new age, Neo pagan sharp, they became very involved with spending days there, and reading a lot practicing different types of meditations. And then later on, I became involved with some more kind of esoteric organizations. But really about the age of 28, it became a little bit disillusioned with much of what I had seen. By that point I was at our college, I'd also taken off, I began to take up, Kung Fu Shaolin Kung Fu. And so in a way, this book is a little bit of a reflection not only of the tradition of classical civilizations in regards to the manhood, but also of my own journey, which is one of them, sort of having this masculine and feminine. So on the one hand, fine art and on the other hand, martial arts, and, yeah,

Greg Voisen
where did the free masonary part come in and testing? You mentioned Western Mystery Schools a call? Yeah. And you know, I did a little bit digging and my wife, Lisa, yoga is the head of a Midwestern Mystery School called builders of the Aetna. Oh, right. Yeah. Paul foster case. Yeah, and Davies, and so on. And I have been married to her for 43 years. And she's been in that all of those 43 years. She started when she was very young. Wow. And it's interesting because I was trying to kind of make the connection between Freemasonry. Yeah, I know the boo ta they actually meet at Masons buildings, you know, they have their chapter right there. So how did that come to play for you? Yeah,

Angel Millar
so I believe regarding the Bo. Ta I believe Paul foster case was a Freemason. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, like, like many men, like many spiritual authorities at that time, such as Mandy Po Po as well. Freemasonry was something that I had been interested in again, from a very young age, and I grew up in England. I now live in the US, but I grew up in it And then at that time, Freemason was still very well known, although most people would say all Freemasons, they're, they're kind of corrupt politicians and businessmen are sounded terribly dreary. And then later on, I was told that they practice ceremonial magic when I was in my teens, which sounded a lot more exciting, especially believe it, but around the age of probably 18, I managed to get a hold of them used copies of a couple of Masonic rituals, the rose quar, which was obviously influenced by Rosicrucianism, right, and alchemy and hermeticism, I could tell that much. And also the royal arch, which is also in Great Britain influenced by Plato's idea of the elements, four or five elements, depending on how you look at it. And, and it seemed to be highly intelligent, again, I wasn't entirely able to make out everything that it was saying, but sort of piqued my interest. And then when I moved to the US, we would have been around the age of 29. I went into the Masonic Lodge in New York and asked if I could become a Freemason. And then I think it was literally a year later that I became a member. And yeah, and it sort of opened my eyes quite a lot. And in one way, it opened my eyes because I felt like it was stepping back in time, about 300 years, you could kind of get a different feeling of history. But it also made a lot of sense regarding the various sort of Western mystery traditions, orders that are out there, like the VO TA or the hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.

Greg Voisen
Why is Freemasonry in? Why is Freemasonry just for men?

Angel Millar
Well, it's a complicated subject.

Greg Voisen
Okay, maybe I should not take you down that path, because we want to get in your book. But no, no, that's fine. No, no, no, that's interesting, because you don't see any female figures and free masonary.

Angel Millar
Yeah, well, so it's complicated in this sense. So the quote unquote, regular Freemasonry, which is the biggest one in America, and Great Britain, they have organizations for women or the women can join, such as the order of the Eastern Star. So women can get involved in a Masonic society as it were. And they have rituals as well, which are very much related to Freemasonry. So there is that available for women, and other under other groups, like the rainbow, Gods are not sure what they are and other organizations. But there are, there are also women, only Masonic lodges, not very many of them. That's one in Washington, DC, which is recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England. And so and so women can join, they're just very obscure and a little hard to find in Garrison, they tend not to have their own buildings, you can't just walk into one so there are there are actually women Freemasons, and I think there have been women Freemasons for several 100 years. Yeah, but no,

Greg Voisen
no, no, one of the things we talked about is the kind of this division between the masculine and feminine and that, you know, man is divided creature, he's compartmentalizes his life, thinking of behaving one way at home and other work and other with friends. And I'd say this is true. How would you recommend that integrating these different parts of our personality, become part of who we are as men in today's world? You know, we live in a chaotic world, let's face it, we live in a world where it's hard for people to find their identity. You know, we see so much occurring in that way. And I think it's not good for the mental health of a man or a female, for that matter, but in particular for me, no, no. Yeah. So how would you what would you recommend? Or to help people integrate all those elements of their personality?

Angel Millar
Hmm, yeah, well, first of all, I think you have to have a focus and something you're aiming towards, because this will at least sort of allow you to not take on board every single fleeting desire that comes along, when you can focus on some of them or one of them rather than every little thing that enters your mind. So having a focus is definitely a good idea. Personally, I'm sure we will come back to this as well. You know, I recommend practicing some kind of pod art in some kind. softer. So whether you know martial arts or weightlifting, or something that's strenuous and is going to push you physically, but something where you can, I don't want to say express yourself, or that's part of it, but you can express yourself in martial arts as well. But something you can kind of appreciate beauty, appreciate the feminine, and appreciate this of the more civilized aspects of life and of nature as well, perhaps you could say,

Greg Voisen
interesting, you know, and you speak about the atomization of modern society combined with cheap and immediate accessibility to entertainment via radio, TV, the internet. And it's all made it easy for individuals to avoid becoming part of a group that meets in the physical world. Yeah, you know, it's just like you and I, right now we're meeting resume, and write also to take pride in not being a joiner. You know, it's kind of like, oh, well, I'm not Yeah. Why, in your estimation, is it so important in our world today, for people to meet in groups? And how does this help men looking to express masculinity and feminine sides of themselves? You know, it's interesting in these borders, like Meishan, free masonary, what have they been doing? I'm wondering, during the pandemic, you know, if people are not meeting because so many people aren't meeting these days, yeah, you're just not, you're not coming together?

Angel Millar
Yeah. No, they're not coming together. I mean, they were putting more education online, so lots of like pictures, but I don't, that doesn't really compensate for, for meeting in person. And, you know, I should say, that actually heard one prominent Freemason on YouTube, I think it was saying that he actually preferred the sort of education online and not going physically to a large. And I think that's kind of a tragedy. And if it's statistically, if you go back to the 1970s, I think, to, to America, two thirds of America, and I believe it was, we're still involved with clubs and going to a regular club meeting, you know, whatever it may have been. And then it from 1985, to 1994, there was a 45% drop in club attendance. And of course, you can find this as well in many kind of churches or religious institutions. And so we've really become people, you know, a century ago, we would have been involved with a club or a church or synagogue or some other religious institution, and maybe even some kind of trade guild, as well as some trade society. And we would have had this huge network around us, as well as our friends and family who would have lived around us as well. But today, we're more and more isolated, more and more cut off. And people have now take pride in this idea that they're not a joiner, as if joining something is a bad thing. And of course, you know, I would say that, okay, you shouldn't be a joiner, you should be a contributor. Because the more you contribute, the more you get back, the more you know, more enjoyable anything is, but you also kind of learn about yourself at the same time. And as to the benefits of being of being involved with like-minded groups, I think there are many, you know, one of them needs to have a support network, to some degree, definitely. And certainly, in this very unstable world, we need some kind of support network. And I know that for example, the people who have the fewest contacts have the earn the least money and the people with most contacts and the highest quality contacts, and the most money. So we do need some kind of network just to navigate this strange world that we live in. But I would say more than that, today. Another really good for reason for being involved with groups or clubs or whatever it may be is that you will meet people before people from different walks of life, people who have different ideas and life experiences to you. And, you know, the Internet was sold to us as creating a global village and now everybody says it's created a globe of different villages. We're all kind of isolated in our own echo chambers. And you know, if you meet someone that you probably wouldn't friend online, in real life, you can going to get a different life perspective. And there's too much in a time of people thinking that anyone who thinks differently to me is evil or a bad person. And you know, at least you can see that no, you know, people have their own problems. They're not out there being malicious most of the time, or they have their own life experiences, and you can kind of get a different read on society and people in life. And it's going to expand your mind and make you a little bit more compassionate towards other people as well. I think that can only be a good

Greg Voisen
thing. No, I agree with the fact that, you know, these zoom calls or Zoom meetings, and I have to be, you know, obviously, the podcast is one way to disseminate lots of information on books, right? I've done almost 900 interviews now over 14 years. So in one respect, it's very rewarding in another respect, I only need about 10% of the author's physically Right, yeah, to sit down and have coffee or really, you know, learn about them, or become friends with them or do something more than just an interview. And I And I honor what you're saying, because it is so true, whether we are more isolated today than ever. COVID helped to exacerbate that isolation. And it's not a good thing. Now that and you know, you state that it's through the body that we express our true self, and that our physical body is the alchemy alchemy laboratory, in which we can test and experiment, speak with us about the importance of this expression, as well as how our society today focus so much on the intellect. You know, you look at everything, you know, I get, I get three books a week in here, from authors, and you go, Well, is there another author going to write another book? You know, and it's about this, and a lot of times it's about the same stuff. And I, I'm not saying that's a bad yeah, I'm just seeing that. If you look at the 200 million titles, or whatever they are at Amazon, whatever the number is, it's, it's huge. You can find a book on anything, just about. Yeah, and it is expanding the intellect. But how is it helping us get to our true self? That question, because you're saying the physical, just like you said a minute ago, do some weights, do some martial arts? Express yourself in this mannerism? You know, when you look at Mind, Body Spirit, connection, you're certainly looking at when I say the arts, I'm going to use yoga as well. You may practice martial arts, but a lot of people use yoga and meditation as a way to make a connection to a higher power. Whatever that is, God, yeah, Buddha, whoever you want to call it. But the point is here, you're saying, this expression of the true self, I'd love to get your, your opinion here.

Angel Millar
But yeah, so one thing that definitely is happening today that we're becoming very much stuck in our own intellects. And I wouldn't even say mind, it's really the intellect that we're stuck in. And we sort of criticize everything discern, taking information and the information is often very skewed, as well. And they become very impassioned about information, and say that we have the correct information and anyone who doesn't is an evil monster, and they don't understand the information that we have. And it becomes this sort of very cantankerous relationship with other people. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and I'll speak for myself, you know, I, you know, I'm, I studied at fine art in England, which is a very design and fashion, it's a very feminine world. And I found that when I was practicing martial arts, and working out, I was actually a lot nicer person, because I was able to kind of express some aggression, and maybe not be as interested in all this craziness as well. And I found that, you know, when I wasn't doing that, there would be a lot more than me, we think of aggression as physical, but the world today, so many people are intellectually aggressive, and they are intending to harm people or to cause damage to other people through what they say, and the universe, but think of themselves as very nice people, but, but actually, they're hurting themselves and hurting other people, and they're too much in their intellect. We are a body. I mean, we're a mind as well, but we're a body. And if you neglect your body, if you don't train it the way you cultivate your mind. Things start to go horribly wrong. Then you think about when you get sick, how, how that affects your mind. You can't concentrate, you can't focus. You don't want to do anything. And people neglect their bodies thinking that their mind must be running perfectly well, but actually, it is affecting their thinking. They just don't realize it because they're so used to their body being unhappy. The and I forget to extremely high percentage of people in America that are on prescription drugs in any one month I think it might be it's almost 50%. And there is no way a population should have almost 50% on prescription drugs at any one time. So we do need to, you know, get healthy. And, you know, weightlifting, martial art doesn't have to be that it could be dance as well. It could be yoga, as you mentioned, these things, our bodies, just as we want to cultivate our mind as well.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I think there's a lot of ways to do it. And I totally concur with you that there needs to be a way for people to express themselves that way. So Angel, you know, in your chapter on the necessary work, you speak about the contrast, which I thought was interesting between Anne Rand, and the teachings of Zen Buddhism, you state that ultimately, we are Supra rational, and we find meaning in the body in the landscape in sex and love and spirituality, ritual, family, brotherhood friendship, and so on. In our modern world, how would you classify the warrior mystic? And what do we have to do to give ourselves permission to express ourselves in this way?

Angel Millar
Yes. In regards to the warrior mystic, if you look back through many different civilizations, you'll find that the elite warriors were trained not only in martial art and physical expertise in the battle, but we're also trained in or taught the softer arts such as painting, calligraphy, tea ceremony, and so on, depending on the culture. And you know, many of these figures were quite bloodthirsty because they were warriors, Miyamoto Musashi. For example, Japan's most famous samurai is also renowned for his Calligraphy is landscape gardening. And painting in the West, you have a figure such as the Viking Eggos, scholar Grimson, who was also a Norse poet and the first poet to actually use rain that at the end of the line, rather than at the beginning, but and so you have this contrast that is brought together in a single individual. And today in our civilization, we are encouraged very much to specialize and to find a niche and a niche within a niche. So that we have a captive audience in some kind of particular area, especially within the profession, so that we can be an expert in some miniscule area. And in our private lives, of course, we're also encouraged to be one type of person. And it really doesn't matter if you are from a sort of working class background where you're expected to get a working class job, or if you're middle class or upper class, there are expectations. For you to succeed, I have seen some areas that expectations for you to not go into some areas, and not to do certain things. And that really cuts across the board. And you know, if a guy might be expected to be tough, but he will not be expected to practice an art or vice versa. And I would say that, as we move into a more and more unstable future, a few other people began saying this, we're going to need to be much more of a generalist than specialists need to be I would say,

Greg Voisen
yes, yeah. I think people have to have much more of a generalist. mind frame mindset to function in this upcoming World. Yep.

Angel Millar
Yes, absolutely. Definitely. Yeah.

Greg Voisen
Oh, you know, it is interesting because, you, you add a chapter on from obstacle to accomplishment. And you'd state that every field has its experts. That's what we're just talking about, but X does, and technical knowledge is not wisdom. counterintuitively, you said perhaps mastery of the art first requires one to be totally mastered by it, meaning the art how do we overcome the obstacles to become more of ourselves and express our true selves. Instead of being trapped in a world, which is probably calling for people to be experts in a certain field versus having this, as the warrior did this variety, he was a painter, he worked with his body, he had all these other things that he could do, right? Yeah. And yet, we haven't we haven't called on that. Our colleges today actually are asking people to focus on one thing. And I think that the educational system, while it is great in what it does, and the kind of people that we have coming out of colleges, it, it doesn't help people be more of a generalist.

Angel Millar
No, no, that's right. If you go to the very top colleges in the USA, they don't want you to have a good education and or good, you know, score in education across the board, they want you to be extremely good at one particular thing. And if you're not good at other things, it doesn't matter. But yeah, so there are a couple of things to say that and one is, you know, we will face obstacles in our life, some worse than others, perhaps. But there's an idea today that, for example, Malcolm Gladwell says that, really it's where you are born. And when you are born, that determines whether you will succeed or not. Noticeably, you can't reverse engineer this. But so he will say that, for example, while Steve Jobs happened to be born the right year, and was living around Silicon Valley at the right time, and 1510 years earlier, or 10 years later, wouldn't have happened. That is true. But what made Steve Jobs kind of revolutionary was that, you know, he introduced you know, different forms to the computer or look like a calculator before that. And the reason he did that was he studied under a Trappist monk learning calligraphy, where there is no way on that you could say that that would be likely or that he would be in the right time and place to learn calligraphy under a Trappist monk, yet, he was able to use that and revolutionize computer. And if you look at many of the most famous people, certainly most of the innovators in different fields, they had horrible childhoods, many of them nearly died or had deaths in the family or disease, extreme poverty, and it was really going through and experiencing these obstacles that enabled them to push themselves forward in life and to become something. And today we're not only taught a specialized were told that we, you know, we must protect ourselves. And if we experience some obstacle, it's very unfair. Whereas you know, that was really what was propelling people are the artists, Mr. Monk, best known for his painting The Scream, had deaths in his family, his mother and sister, all kind of poverty, horrible childhood. And he said later on that that was his rudder. That's what gave him direction in life. And without it, he would be rudderless. And so I think we want to be very careful about thinking that, you know, if we're born in the right place in time, or if we have all the benefits, or if we have all, you know, all the luck and the privilege that's going to make us usually that just cripples people, those people can become experts, but they never become innovators. Yeah. So yeah,

Greg Voisen
that's a very important point you make I mean, yeah. Steve Jobs is a great example. I happen to be reading a book that a gentleman wrote Ken Rusk, and it's in it's called Blue Collar cash. And the interesting thing was that, you know, we have people that work in the trades, our world has kind of moved, you know, we don't have enough truck drivers. We don't have enough people to do plumbing. We don't have enough people to do take these roles, yet. College has said, Hey, if you take these roles, you're going to make more money. But the reality is, it's not true anymore. No truck drivers making as much as the well educated person who came out and is a middle manager. And those roles and positions require that they become a lot more versed and use their hands. And he said, Yeah, he said, the interesting thing, angel, he said, there's this step back moment, and I thought that was interesting because And when you create something with your hands like you're a landscaper, or an architect or you're or a plumber and you fix something or you build a house or you build a wall and you're a Mason, and you take the step back moment, and you see what you created, there's a tremendous reward in that. Yeah, versus all these people that are working on the internet, right? It's, yeah, there's a big difference. I thought that was a great statement that he made and you state that we're trapped, or that we do what we want to do eat what we want to eat, buy what we want to buy, and believe in what we want to believe. How do we move beyond the psyches? And that we're trapped in by them and start to ask the difficult questions about how to live our lives?

Angel Millar
Yeah, but I think we have to question what we know. And I don't mean this in some kind of self-flagellating sense. But if you read the news and something shocks, you read the read the news from the opposite sides perspective, and usually you'll find that they have a different perspective, some facts may be left out, some facts may be distorted. And at least that way, you can begin to realize, oh, okay, there really are two sides to every story. And I would say approach life a bit like that. There's always something more we can learn. We don't have to have an allegiance to one particular side. And we should always be trying to go beyond what we know. We're really pushing ourselves. And so yeah, I think, you know, if you can study, study things that you're you haven't been exposed to, before you can meet, meet different people with different perspectives. But really try to learn and try to listen to people and let them speak and try to understand where they're coming from, or understand different arts as it were, then you're going to be opened up to a different understanding of life that's more complex and nuanced, and a little more forgiving, and a little more creative as well. You're able to come up with creative solutions yourself as well, which is what we need.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. In a, you know, it's almost like, when you look at that perspective, you look at it from I remember Margaret Wheatley used to talk about ecosystems. And you know, it's the ICA it, all these ecosystems that are out there. They're all interdependent. And I think that's what you're really saying is the interdependence that we have the ability to operate within that not our independence, but are interdependent, and Angel in your chapter on fear in the higher self, you state that in our world today, estranged from nature, and with a belief in science and faith in politics, many people in the West find it almost impossible to accept that life is inherently chaotic, unsafe and often unfair. Or that brutality can invade at any time, or that we will be treated unjustly. What are some of the ways to embrace what is happening in our world get access, the spiritual nature of life, and transmute our beliefs to live from our true self, as you call it?

Angel Millar
Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, it's very difficult for people in the West, obviously, at least, to a certain income level, to realize that, you know, life is brutal and unfair. For much of the world, obviously, it's not like that. And for many poor people in America or the West, it's also not like that it's much more chaotic. And I think in a way we've seen, especially over the last year or so with COVID, which has been, in my opinion, largely a kind of financial divide with people who are middle class and who can work from home saying, you know, we all need to extend the lockdowns and people that are living right on the edge and really need to do something physical like cleaning or driving a truck or whatever it may be, to make enough money to pay their rent saying, Oh, we've had enough of the lock downs. And, you know, we live in a strange and divided world, but in regards to understanding that life is chaos, and it could all change very rapidly, especially I think the way things may be going. I would say that, in a sense, we just have to face that. Our civilization today is unusual. It's not been like this until very recently. Think of the world wars of the 20th century in on the left Last day of the Battle of the Somme there were 20,000 deaths on the British side alone and 40,000 casualties on the British side. And, you know, that sort of mayhem, maybe relatively unusual what we saw two great wars, in the last century, many others as well. And civilizations and countries can be wiped out very quickly. And I think, you know, we don't want to be morbid or paranoid about what may be, but I would say that we should prepare ourselves as a whole, prepare ourselves to be adaptable for the future, to make sure we're healthy to make sure that we have enough stamina and willpower to go into the future and make changes in our lives or be adaptable and seize opportunities as they can, and not the passive victim.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, you know, you speak about the ways things can change and how chaotic it is, and that it is fragile. People don't look at it as being that fragile. But on the other hand, the wars that are being fought, even though may not be physical, are emotional wars. And also, you know, when you look at our cyber world, it's the war in the cyber world that's creating the division, the divisiveness amongst us as individuals to question so many different things and try and look at things in a different way. And, you know, yeah, between AI, artificial intelligence having its effect on, you know, how we do our purchases in how these things appear. Thus, the problems that we're seeing at Facebook, you know, it's I, I, honestly, it's going to get worse for Facebook before it ever gets better. Yeah, and, and it is a challenge. I mean, do you want to comment about on that war, because there is a war being fought in our cyber space?

Angel Millar
Oh, yeah, very much. So. Yeah. But I think, you know, this war between different groups is often kind of almost, I mean, it's a very passionate and angry, intense and destructive war. That is extremely true. But you know, it again, it is because people will look up the other side or other people is not really quite human. And, you know, I've even seen people make comments Absolutely, to that effect that people who don't agree with such and such a person on vaccines, let's say, are simulacra of human beings. All excuses of human beings are not actual people. And it's really, it's very destructive, not only for society, but for our own conscience and our own soul, when we refuse to look at people as actual people with their own lives and their own problems, and their own aspirations as well. I think that we really do need to get back to the point where we can meet different people and see that they are human beings and being online all the time. It's one of those things that makes us think that other people are exactly how they've been portrayed in the media, or by the, you know, the most angry social media posters out there. And it's not really the case. You know, people really need to stay, take a step back, realize that the people they're angry at are human beings just like them, and hopefully you can meet them at some point. Or people like them and understand that.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's definitely a world where we're seeing chaos and wars being fought over the internet. Yeah, and that is escalating into physical stuff, which is then manifesting itself out in the world, which you were talking about earlier. The anger. Yeah, anger that individuals have toward other individuals has been exasperated by this problem. And you know, you state that society tries to protect itself from nature and from chaos yet, they intervene. And then if you would speak with us about, and I hope I'm pronouncing that right, Guan, and the Green Knight and the representation of the five pointed star, a sign invented by King Solomon, I know because of my wife's work in Hebrew, and you look at what Bo ta was done. Everything's around a five pointed star. Right. So speak with us a little bit about that because it's on the cover of your book as well.

Angel Millar
Yes, yeah. So in in regard to the five pointed star in green and the Green Knight, which is a Middle English myth. And in the myth there's actually a movie out now I don't know if you've seen it, I haven't seen it yet. But, uh, but in the original myth, King Arthur's court are celebrating Christmas when a mysterious giant green night and says the whole one makes this challenge and says, I'll give anyone my axe, who wants to chop off my head on condition that I can do the same to them next year. And everyone there, including the Knights are a little bit nervous about this, but Gwaine one of the Knights steps up and says that he will allow that. And so he chops off the green knights head, the Green Knight puts his hat back on and tells him to seek him out.

Greg Voisen
Interesting, yeah, a year

Angel Millar
from now. And so he's spent this entire year on a kind of pilgrimage towards his own death as he would perceive it. But before he sets out, he's given an a shield and on the shield is a pentagram. And it has different meanings. One is, refers to the fourth thing because and the thumb refers to the five senses to fellowship, generosity, courtesy, compassion and purity, and also to the five wounds of Christ. And today, of course, we will think of the pentagram as a satanic symbol. If you watch Hollywood movies, or in witchcraft, it's shows up there, but it has a long and very complicated history in architecture, it embodies the the golden ratio as well, which is, you know, the perfect number that you find embodied in in classical architecture, that you will even find it in Freemasonry early on. And in Oh,

Greg Voisen
yeah, it's interesting how it's been distorted in the surround it. You know, I think my wife speaks about the Golden Dawn, you know, and right, so, you know, you you look at this and, and five pointed star, and what you just said was, so had so much meaning. Yeah, comparison to how people misinterpreted and misinterpret so many different things.

Angel Millar
Anything. Right? That's right. Yeah, absolutely.

Greg Voisen
Yeah. And, and I think they need to be a little bit more educated about really what the true meaning and significance was. And it requires you to go back into history, and really look at history, not not current day. Right. So, you know, Angel, if you were to leave our listeners with three important points from your book, and, and what would they be? And what is the importance of having them living their lives as this higher men in a modern world today?

Angel Millar
Yeah, so the three points I would say, develop your mind, body, and spirit, where we are whole people, we're not just an intellect, we're also our body. We're also creative people, we need to develop ourselves as a whole. Secondly, I would say, try to give up criticism, this criticism on online media, we're constantly we're constantly assaulted by a criticism, whether it's aimed at us personally, your people in general, or some political side, or whatever it may be, it's very destructive for our spirit and our consciousness, give up criticism and become a creator instead, you know, like the mist? Yeah, the mystic gi Gurdjieff, said that we will give up our happiness before we will give up our suffering. And I think it's weirdly true that you know, a lot of the people who are online attacking other people that actually are living perfectly, you know, perfectly comfortable alive. But the, rather than give up their suffering, they give up their happiness to suffer. It's a very strange human thing. But we have to make a concerted effort to give up criticizing give up feeling angry, and be creative.

Greg Voisen
are very important.

Angel Millar
And what Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I would say that realize that. Although, you know, you mentioned Ayn Rand, the Iran who says we should be rational producers, I would say that realize we're mostly non rational. In the in the medieval period, they had the idea that there was intellectus, and ratio and ratio meant rational thought, which was kind of like the workhorse of the mind. If you needed to figure out a solution to a problem you would use ratio or rational Thinking. But there was also intellectus, which meant contemplation. So if you've contemplated nature, or you've contemplated the sky or flower, the belief that you are actually contemplating the nature of God or you're contemplating something design and you're absorbing, in a sense, from the Divine that there was this other way to perceive the world. And I think today, we could say that not only do we have, you know, rational thinking, mostly we're rationalizing, but let's say we have the potential to think rationally the potential to contemplate, we're also moving through different states of consciousness throughout our day, sleep into hypnopompic, the state between sleep and waking, maybe meditation, daydreaming, contemplating aesthetics, and so on. And so we go through these different states of consciousness or flow if you're practicing safe martial art, or dance or yoga, or maybe something else. And not to get stuck in the idea that we're rational because we're largely not rational. And that's why, of course, in the tangent, that's why advertising doesn't speak to us rationally shows us images of happy people, bright colors, and someone to motivate us. Because we don't, we're not really motivated by rational thinking. So I would say, you know, realize we're not really entirely rational, cultivate the non-rational, whether that's practicing an art to the body, of course, health, going out into nature, and recognize that we're passing through these different states of consciousness throughout the day, sleep hypnopompic, daydreaming and make those work for you, they all have a purpose, we're multi-dimensional people. And we really want to grasp that multi-dimensional nature that we have, and not reduce our own selves down to a cliche, I would say, in regards to living as the higher man, which I think you can tell how I regard is really developing our whole selves. And of course, I understand that, you know, many people probably don't want to practice martial arts. But if you can make your body a little stronger, even if it's see through dance, or through working out, that's going to be a big plus, you know, practice some kind of art, calligraphy painting, some kind of design, whatever it may be, you're creating, you know, redoing cars or something, whatever it may be, whatever is your thing, and cultivate the intellect as well understand culture. And you develop ourselves as a whole beyond the cliches that people want us to be, because maybe they're afraid that we're going to be out of their control, develop ourselves as a whole. And I think it's important to have this sort of classical reference, you find this type of figure through our history, to really realize that we're in a, we're in now we're not at the end of time, this isn't, this isn't the perfect world. And we're not going to make the perfect world probably, this is another period of time and what we believe now we won't believe in 20 3040 years from now, it keeps changing. And we need to be able to navigate that, while really not selling our soul in the process, and really encountering this kind of chaos, and enabling that to make us stronger, or becoming stronger through interacting with it not giving into.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, you bring up some very important points there that I think as a conclusion, to our interview, and to our listeners, knowing more about your book. You know, I think that becoming the man that you want to become in the age of chaos requires What angel just said, and it also requires a bit of courage. Because you will have to muster up that courage to do that. And a willingness to stretch. Stretch yourself, you know, he's talking about stretching from the standpoint of the body but I'm talking about stretch your intellect, stretch your body stretch everything. thereby becoming more of a higher, we'll just call it a whole person. An angel, I'm going to direct the listeners to go to your website. Again. It's Angel Mylar, and that's a n g e l m I l l a r. There. You can learn more about Angel his prior books as well. We'll put links to those books on this blog. This book, the path of the warrior mystic being a man in the age of chaos. If you want to learn more about that, that will also be at the website, Angel thanks for being on insight, personal growth and sharing some of your insights and wisdom about what it's going to be like to become this. I'm going to just call it whole hire person in today's chaotic world.

Angel Millar
Thank you. It's been a pleasure. I'm really glad you invited me on

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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I recently had a true honor to interview Ken Rusk, the author of a new book entitled “Blue-Collar Cash: Love Your Work, Secure Your Future, and Find Happiness for Life.”

His new book is exceptional and provides readers amazing lessons from his  30 over years of working in blue collar trades as an entrepreneur, mentor, and life coach.

In this very engaging  interview, we talk about employment, goals, success and happiness that a Blue-Collar life can bring.  We also speak about his program entitled “The Path to a Successful Life,”  a course that will give you the opportunity  to learn how to truly take control of your life. To begin visualizing a clear destination and the path that will take you there. To find success and achieve your version of Comfort, Peace, and Freedom.

To learn more about Ken Rusk and the book, please click here to visit his website.  To celebrate the launch of  his program The Path to a Successful Life,  Ken is also giving the “First 100 Special Offer” the opportunity to get your hands on a signed copy of Blue Collar Cash when you purchase the Lifetime Path Plan!  He is going to sign, number, and send copies himself to the first 100 students to enroll as a Lifetime Member!  Please click here to find out more about the course and his great offers.

THE BOOK

A Wall Street Journal Bestseller

A prescriptive and timely guide to finding success and happiness without a college degree by Ken Rusk, the Ohio-based entrepreneur and “million-dollar ditch digger” who believes it is time to celebrate the possibilities and financial opportunities that a Blue-Collar life can bring.

A BLUE-COLLAR APPROACH TO CREATING A LIFE YOU LOVE

 

THE AUTHOR

Ken spent his younger years digging ditches and working in construction.

He never went to college. Instead, he made goals, planned, and worked hard for thirty years. Now, Ken is a very successful entrepreneur with multiple businesses and revenue streams.

Ken Rusk specializes in mentoring and has coached hundreds of young people in areas such as short-, mid-, and long-term goal setting, life visualization, career paths, and sound financial planning. He is passionate about helping people achieve their dreams regardless of their educational background or past.

THE PATH TO A SUCCESSFUL LIFE PROGRAM

Right now, you have the opportunity to learn how to truly take control of your life.

To begin visualizing a clear destination and the path that will take you there. To find success and achieve your version of Comfort, Peace, and Freedom.

“First 100″ Special Offer – Signed Copy”

 

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

GREG VOISEN:
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth this is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining us from Toledo, Ohio. Not too far just down the road from San Diego is Ken Rusk and Ken has a new book out called Blue Collar Cash: Love Your work, Secure your Future and Find Happiness for Life. Ken, Good day how're you doing?

KEN RUSK:
I'm doing great. I appreciate you having me. Thanks a lot. Looking forward to our conversation.

GREG VOISEN:
I'm looking forward to it as well. And I know that our listeners, many of them, don't know who you are. But for purposes of this interview, just go to Ken rustc.com knrusk.com. There you will find more about the book create your own path to success and fulfillment, some stories Ken's blog, but Ken is a blue collar construction business entrepreneur, and a best-selling author who's visualize the life he wanted, made goals and launched multiple successful endeavors over the last 40 years. He has extensive experience in hiring, training and developing first time job seekers, particularly those without college degrees. And you know, we're in this world can and let's kind of just start this off, to set the stage for the interview. And give the listeners a little context for the book. Can you tell them a little about yourself and the pathway you chose, which really didn't include higher education as part of the process to create the life of your choice. And you in the back of the book, I love what you do you list all the greats from, you know, Bill Gates to Steve Jobs, who didn't have college degrees. And I was really taken by the list because I didn't realize it was that many very successful entrepreneurs who never had a long term formal education through college.

KEN RUSK:
Yeah, so for me, it was a it was a pretty simple start, you know, we lived in a very small town near Cleveland, Ohio, and my high school was attached by a fence to an industrial park. And whenever we would go after school, we tried to go hang out it to carry out and do things that kids did. And there was a hole in that fence that we had to kind of crawl through to get to the industrial park and then on to the, the carry out. And you know, it was interesting, because I always liked the energy of that industrial park, there were several businesses in there, one of them in particular, you know, it had all the things that young guys liked, it had, you know, dump trucks, and back hoes and tow motors and, you know, bunches of guys running around and things happening. And, you know, it was one of those scenarios where I just really liked the energy of that there were all obviously people that worked outside, they worked in with their own hands for a living. And so at one point, I just went up to him and said, What do you guys do here? And, you know, basically, they said, We're ditch diggers. I mean, we, we take care of old foundations on buildings, and we drain water away, and we dig a lot of ditches. And I said, Well, you know, I can do that, you know, I'm like anybody else I need save money for a used car, or, you know, take my girlfriend out for pizza, or go bowling or to the movies, whatever. So I, you know, I said, I can do that. So I kind of signed on to that. And I worked in the summertime when I wasn't in school, digging ditches and doing landscaping work and all that kind of stuff. And in the wintertime, I would work in the office and well, you know, after school, so I can I learned a few things about how the office ran. So I did that for probably four or five years. And then it was time to decide, okay, are you going to college or you're not going to college. And, you know, I just kind of knew that that wasn't for me, because I knew that I had this passion for being someone who could control you know, their own input, and then their own output, the quality of that, and then the financial reward that came with that. So my, my boss came to me one day and said, our company is growing so big. We need to open satellite offices. So they sent me around the country when I was 19 years old, opening up these offices, something I'd never done before but I just kind of jumped right in and help them do it and then finally settled a few years after that in Toledo, Ohio, after traveling living out of a suitcase for a while which is no fun. So yeah, I settled in Toledo, Ohio and that we started with six employees running our own company here and now we have two locations and 200 employees. So it's been quite a ride.

GREG VOISEN:
What certainly has you know, and I remember you speak about grapes and wines and being in the vineyards in California, and you made some analogies there. And you know, can you make a point in your book that maybe following the traditional pathway towards a higher education out of high school might not be the best answer for someone, you know, wanting to reach their dreams. And this has nothing to do with the education, it has to do with the individuals we're really talking about, and their desire. I know I have a son, one, one of my sons never went to college. You know, I was like you during the summer times, I worked in a landscaping business. And then during the year, I started and then my dad died. And I ended up taking the business over and I had 17 employees, I had run ditch diggers and back hoes and all kinds of stuff, right? But it was thrust upon me. And I did really well. And so I was fortunate enough that I was able to get my college education at the same time to run the business, which would, you know, threw me into a tailspin. But for those of the listeners that are out there, you make a great point about the cost of higher education. And the default on student loans is kind of in an all-time high. I know because I just paid off three years ago, my kids, students phones. So with such a shortage of high skilled workers, what are the prospects for someone who might not choose to take the path toward going to college?

KEN RUSK:
Well, you know, that's kind of a simple question. I mean, I have always believed that the law of supply and demand is a almost infallible law, unless, of course, you try to manipulate the facts that are involved in that that equation. So if I look at it this way, if the supply of, of blue collar workers is low, and the demand is extremely high, well, then it's no, it's a no brainer, that wages are going to move towards that side. And now you've got carpenters, making as much as doctors and plumbers making as much as lawyers, only without all the debt and without all the schooling. So, you know, everyone has to make their own individual choice. You know, I always say that I'm not, I'm not an anti college guy, okay? If you're going to operate on my shoulders, so I can get back on the golf course. Or if you're going to manage money, or if you're going to engineer a building that needs to stand up, or, or teach people or something like that, yeah, I'm going to want you to know everything there is no before you pick up a knife and come at me with it. So. But if you're not going for an absolutely specific reason, then you really have to step back and say, Wait a minute, am I being told I need to go to college? Or do I really need to go to college? And what will I get out of it, because we are currently over supplying like crazy, these rather bland business degrees, and we are under supplying blue collar workers. So the only stands to reason that the jobs in the money are going to start to shrink on some of those, you know, nonspecific degrees, and yet the other side is begging for workers and paying high dollars to get them. So I always say if you start out with a vision of what you want your life to look like, you know, this is somewhat controversial, but sometimes I think, Well, maybe it's not so important. What you do for a living is what you do with what you do for a living, you know, certainly distinction was number 99, nine out of 100 things that I would want it I wanted to do. But I saw that it was a means to a really good end for me that I could control my destiny control my input my hours, I could control the quality of that and the financial rewards. So it just made sense for me to take that path.
GREG VOISEN:
Well, you know, you talked about the ditch digging, and I remember, I worked in an animal graveyard digging, digging graves for animals that were going to be buried, including horse. So those are some pretty big holes that I had to dig. And I was digging it with a shovel. There wasn't you know, there wasn't a backhoe, there anything to dig it at the time. And my point to that is, is that there's something really foundational about doing things with your hands. And I want to get that, you know, there's this whole connection between people farming, people working with their hands and feet, feeling very fulfilled, you know, the tech world today. It's not always that fulfilling to sit behind a computer and blast out emails and do whatever. But when you grow a crop or you build a building or you fix somebody's toilet or you do you know put plumbing in a house, it's very rewarding. Would you comment if you would kind of about those rewards that people get intrinsically as a result of, of doing this kind of work? I think it's an important point?

KEN RUSK:
Well, first off, let's just get past the obvious ones fresh air, you know, you're outside, you're, you're breathing good air, and you're, you're working your body and you're exercising, and, you know, you're on the elements, and you get to you get to experience, the seasons and all that. But I think for me, it's all about what we call the stand back moment, you know, every time I planted 10, pine trees in front of someone's yard, and a bunch of boulders and cut out the beds and filled it with mulch, and put flowers and plants in there, at the end of the day, almost every time we were grabbed that shovel, we lean on it, and we step back, or stand back and we go out, look at the beauty that we just created there. I mean, you that that doesn't get matched by someone who may feel like they're a very small cog in a very big wheel, you know, stuck on the 17th floor have some, some building in a cubicle. And to your point, do they actually get to see the result of what they do. So I think I mean, if you're building outdoor kitchens or your you know, your building beautiful stone gates or, or anything that you do, if you're making someone beautiful in a salon, or you're creating a cake for someone's wedding, you get to stand back and say, Wow, I did that, that memory, that thing will stand the test of time. And I just don't think you'd get that in some of these other positions.
GREG VOISEN:
I would agree with you. And all the more reason for the blue collar cash, you know, because this book really is a guidebook, and I want to let my listeners know, definitely go to Ken Ross comm we also are going to have a link to a course, where you'll be able to get a discount that Ken's assistant provided for me. So we'll put that in the blog as well. Now, you know, you list who this book has been written for. And the question the list is quite long. If someone is questioning getting a four year college degree, how can you help them create? You call it comfort, peace and financial freedom in their life? And most likely the desire to get them? In other words, how are you going to help them can get there through maybe looking at alternative way of their education, and maybe doing blue collar cash, and having that be the choice? And then having them be fulfilled? Through those three things. You talked about comfort, peace and financial freedom?

KEN RUSK:
Well, first of all, you know, thank you for asking that question. That's a great question. You know, people asked me where I got those three words from, and when I started writing this book, it really started out as a letter to my daughter who was suffering from cancer at the time, and she's fine now. But those are some few scary years. And, and for me, I was writing a letter to her about what I thought was important in life, you know, I had been running this company, and, you know, going crazy and giving it all I had, and, you know, chasing dollars in financial statements, and employee benefits and customer relations and all that stuff. And I thought to myself, you know, I need to really think about what is important here. And those three words just kept showing up in like, almost a triangle form. So it was something that I just couldn't, I couldn't get away from. And I believe what, what in order to find comfort, peace and freedom, which I think is everyone's Nirvana, it's, it's what you should be chasing or anticipating. I think you need to start with a really strong vision of just what would make you happy? I mean, what would you like your life to look like? You know, one of the things we do here is we actually get these large poster boards and boxes of crayons, and we give them to our people and say, draw your perfect world. Okay? Draw the house you want to be in or the condo or the apartment, draw the vehicle you'd like to have, whether it's an electric scooter, or a motorcycle minivan, or a pickup truck, whatever it might be electric car, draw the pet you'd like to have a dog or a cat? And if so, what kind of what color? What would you name it, you know, draw your gift back moment what your charity might be, like, if you had some extra money to give away? What's your hobby going to be like? What's your health, going to be like, um, draw those things, just get a really clear picture of who you are and what you want your life to look like. That's the beginning of all of this. Because when you have something like that your body just works in a way where it naturally draws itself to those goals. As long as they're clear, as long as you're documented and as long as you keep them in front of me.
GREG VOISEN:
Yeah, setting intentions, having affirmations, having a vision board, which are creating using crayons or cutting pictures out. Those are all wonderful things to do. And they do help you to manifest and create in your life what you're looking to get. And obviously you have been successful at doing that yourself. And I think You know, you're not somebody who would teach something if you didn't do it yourself. That's the kind of guy you are. I already know that from having had, having spoken with you before. You mentioned in the book that even with the advent of intelligence or mechanized labor, robots, whatever, you guarantee that for even the baby with a smartphone in his hand, today, there's going to be a need for someone to hire someone who knows how to use a shovel, a rake, a hammer or a wrench. Agreed. I think that's probably always going to happen. As part, things are going to be mechanized, they do get on factory lines, assembly lines, we're seeing a lot of that happening. Speak with us, if you would, about the shortage of the skilled labor and the long term prospects for blue collar jobs. Do you see any other what are the trends with blue collar jobs? I mean, we're all being reported on right now that the docks in Long Beach because I live in San Diego, I'm not that far away. You got a shortage of truck drivers, you got a shortage of guys that are unloading those containers, you got a shortage of everybody. And you got 1000 ships sitting out there with 1000s and 1000s of containers. The question is, is what do you see kind of trending? Do you see anything trending? Because we know we're going to autonomous trucks? So maybe truck drivers, we're going to see a waning there? I don't know.

KEN RUSK:
I think I think autonomous trucks are probably still a pretty good bit away, I think. I think when Elon Musk perfects the car that he's trying to do, I think that's going to be the first step regular passenger, where we start putting, you know, 50 tons rolling down the road at 80 miles an hour. Yeah, I looked at it this way, pretty much anything in transportation, anything in New Energy, okay, anything in construction, anything in maintenance or repair, improvements, those kinds of things. And here's why. We almost have what I call a perfect storm happening here. Where, you know, back in the in the mid 80s, we decided to take sharp class out of our high schools and replace those rooms with computers. Well, that's fine. We all need to learn computers. But I always wondered to myself, why did it have to be binary choice? Why did it have to be one or the other? Why couldn't have been both, because we effectively eliminated the almost accidental discovery of carpentry, plumbing, electricians, you know, mechanics, bakers, all welders, all those kinds of things by millions and millions of kids who would have just gravitated towards that through high school. Now, if you pair that challenge, up with the fact that we're not building tree forts with hammers and nails anymore in our backyard, you're not doing a lot of those things that we did as kids, we're building, you know, your cities on Minecraft and in games that you hold in your hand. And that just doesn't have the same intrinsic value to someone who would discover something like that. If you couple those two forces with the fact that we almost have this default mechanism by parents and teachers, and mainly colleges where they say, You got to go to college, or else you have to go to school, or else you won't be successful. Well, nothing can be further from the truth, especially now. But if you combine all those three forces, it's going to cause a blue collar shortage for the foreseeable future. And I don't even know when that's going to change. I mean, hopefully supply and demand will rebalance itself. But that's going to take years and years and years before we get back to appreciating, like you said, the hammer, the rake, the shovel, and the welder, it's, it's really going to open up some amazing opportunities. And it is right now for people who are willing to go out there and work with their hands and again, create that wonderful stand back moment. And they will be able to make the most wonderful, financial fulfilled lives for themselves on their way towards what we talked about, which is comfort, peace and freedom.
GREG VOISEN:
Like what you said earlier to about the give back. I mean, you know, look, our success is really the older you get. I'm 67 years old. So the older you get there, the more you realize that, you know, success is not man, measured just in the dollars. It's measured in what you can give back. It's measuring and what you can do, in any buddy who takes on these blue collar positions, has the ability as you said, one of them is to give back. What is your gift back? If you're going to draw your picture, make sure it's there. And I look at the you know, I have a master's degree in spiritual psychology and to me our spirituality is as important as anything in this journey, what we do with it and how we treat other people And that lady at the checkout stand is just as important as that doctor that you go to see for your cold. So I look at how you treat people as well, the truck driver who delivers your food, we don't think about that supply chain, people often forget about that, where it has to go from the field worker who picks it in central California, into the container, into the truck, from the truck to the grocery store, then on the shelf inside the grocery store for you to be able to have an awareness. And what I say is, be grateful that that happens that that still happens every day, millions of tons of food are distributed every day by people that are blue collar workers. And that was a little bent on the side from me. But I wanted our listeners to hear that. Now I also want to tell us have you tell this heartfelt story about your daughter, Nicole? What did the life experience teach you about life's curveballs, as you stayed in the book, I had a son at 21 Who got leukemia? So I know. I've had babies basal cell carcinoma, and I've had squamous cell carcinoma removed. And I have another one right underneath my eyes. So when this came up, I was thinking, Oh, my gosh, and I'm going in Wednesday to see it. And my eye vision is a little blurry over here. And I don't know if it's, you know, I hoping it's not related. But when I read that, I was like, oh, boy, I should pay attention.

KEN RUSK:
Yeah, you know, no parent ever wants to go through something like that, because it's, it's really, really scary. And I you know, it was a life changing moment, because, you know, everything just stops. And I know that people say that. And a lot of times people don't understand it when they hear that. But your world is moving at 100 miles an hour. And literally, it just stops when you get that piece of information from a doctor and you're sitting across the desk from them. It just literally crushes you. And it could break your spirit so easily if you're not willing to get up and fight. I think what helped kept keep us resilient, was the fact that I had purposely over the years surrounded myself with as many people that I could find that I could help train or even coach who were self-motivated self-directing, gold crushing machines for themselves. I mean, again, I always say I can't get what I want for my company, or for myself until all of you get what you want first. And I mean that. And so that really helped me out in that period of time, because I was able to leave and go help her and the company just kept moving forward. But it wouldn't have done that. Had I been this, you know, super boss who tried to do everything and answer all the questions and be everything to everybody. Instead, we had a team that could help me get through that. But I think I think the point there is you need to prepare for life's curveballs. I remember telling my daughter, I said, you're going to run into two or three things in your 90 or so years on this planet that are going to be just crushing, just devastating. And you need to be prepared for when those things happen. And understand that that's what life is people go through setbacks. That's why I wrote the characteristics of the entrepreneur. People go through these setbacks, and they have to understand that they are coming and be prepared for when they come both, like you said spiritually, financially, foundationally and just get right through it. Because we are resilient people. And we always we always come back from things like that.
GREG VOISEN:
You know, it's so true. And the longer you're on the planet, the more apt you are to have some of those things happen, right. So this last year, I lost two really good friends and I lost two brothers. And I realize more and more about our finitude, that everyday is a gift. And what I may have gone on about the gratitude about the piece of lettuce in the store. But the reality is, you really do need to think about that. Every day, it's a miracle what happens for us, and to us, the fact that the body still breathes and that we walk and we go exercise, and we do whatever and we have all of these things happen. And you know, you speak about faith being something that one believes in, that is bigger than themselves. And you tell the story about Jim mo line, and why faith played a big role in his life. Can you tell his story and also kind of your perspective as the person who wrote the blue collar cash? why that's so important.

KEN RUSK:
Well, you know, again, we talked about setbacks. And you know, everybody has a story to tell about something that they've had to overcome, right? It's This gentleman who is a, he's a very successful builder in town, he's won several awards over the years. And he's done some amazing work building custom homes. So I had been blessed. And I'd worked really hard. And I was very grateful. And my wife and I had been planning this house for about five years. And we finally got it to the point where we're ready to build it. And we chose Jim to build the house for us. And it took about a year in some it's, it's kind of a stone and brick and wood type of French country looking thing. And it took a little bit of time. And so I got to know Jim pretty well, from the daily visits that we would have over there. One day, we had some timing, he just came, he came right out and said, I need to, I need to tell you this story, because you would appreciate it. And, you know, here was a guy who had some relationship problems with his parents, and he was younger. And he was a rebel. You know, he had gone through some hard times at school and whatever. And then he got into, you know, smoking pot and any, you know, that went for a while and drinking and then, you know, you're always seeking more, so then he gets into this heroin thing. And I got to tell you, I can't believe what he's going through. I mean, he almost died three or four different times, he was in a coma for weeks from overdoses, accidental or otherwise. And it was just unbelievable. But what kept bringing him back is he always ran into someone who said, All right, I'm going to give you another chance. And he, he just he just kept running into these wonderful human beings who said, All right, you're going to get another chance Moline, but you better make something of yourself this time. And he literally did at one point, he, he just he broke down and said, you know, I just can't do this anymore. Okay, I can't be this person, in and out of hospitals in and out of rehab centers and whatnot. And he signed on with a carpenter, and just kind of mentored underneath this gentleman. And then pretty soon he started build, helping them build and framing and pretty soon that gentleman retired, and now he started building a condo. And then he had to build 20 of them for this company. And now he builds houses and churches and, and buildings all over the state of the Northwest Ohio. But the thing is, is, here's a guy who said I need to put my faith in God or in some higher power, whoever that might be. And I need to know that I'm going to come out. All right on the other side, because I've had some great people, give me those second chances. And, you know, I won't get into all the gory details of what he went through. But it was shocking, because here's a guy that I had no idea had gone through this. And yet, he's one of the most faithful, most courageous, most resilient, and most hopeful people that I know. And, and he's gotten a lot of success for that. And because of that, he does give back in a major way as well.

GREG VOISEN:
Well, the story that you tell about him, Jim, is, is a story that could be told many times over, you know, and it's a story that Joseph Campbell used to talk about the hero's journey, and how people would go out and cycle and you know, they would literally run into a big problem like he did alcohol, drugs, whatever it might be, whatever addiction it is you had, and then literally, someone would give him a chance. And those people that are out there that have faith enough in Jim to get him through to end anybody that's listening, are always there. They're always the people that give you the second chance, whether it's your parents, or a co-worker, or your employer, or whatever. And if not, you're always going to find somebody, and I want my listeners to hear this, who's willing to help you keep your hero's journey so that you can get to the point where you do become a success at whatever it is you do. So don't give up. That would be a message I would say is do not give up.
KEN RUSK:
Let me add something to that real quick. You know, they say the Lord works in strange, mysterious ways, right? So what happened years later, like 20 years later, Jim got a call from a gal who said, I want you to help me design and build my aunt's house. So we went and met with this gal, and they started talking about the style of the house. They wanted to do this, that and whatever. And then in walks the end, and he had not met her yet, the and was one of his original parole officers from one of his first sets of infractions, who said, I'm going to give you another chance. And she did not know that Jim was that kid? That's a great story. You're talking about. He looked at her he said is this That's your name, and did you use to do this? And she said yes and yes, and they both broke down and just cry. Did you know for minutes about that whole process, and someone put them back together and he said, he goes, I built her house for cost. I didn't make a single nickel. I couldn't wait to create this beautiful home for this woman who gave me such a such an amazing gift of a second chance.

GREG VOISEN:
Well, it's a great story. And it's one that's told many, many times, and I hope we continue to tell it as a species. Because that's about giving people hope, faith and having purpose in their life. And, you know, you speak about the crisis and the American workforce, and that this crisis is an opportunity. We've kind of talked about that. The lack of blue collar workers, what opportunity lies in the places where it where it's the highest, and in your estimation, what is the opportunity right now? And you told a story about rob the plumber. Okay. And I think that was a good story. That's a correlation here. On this question.
KEN RUSK:
Well, yeah, you know, it's, it's funny, because I remember years ago, being at a party, and there were several moms in this room. And I remember that. The, they were having a discussion, and the discussion was about their kids going to college. Well, where's your son going to college? Well, my daughter's going to college here. Well, my son's going there, my daughter is going there. And you know, it kind of a kind of a trophy conversation, okay. And, and yet one of them said, Well, what about what's her name? Son? Well, you know, he's just going to be a plumber. And I thought, just going to be a plumber. Okay. So a few years go by and Rob comes to work on my house, doing the original plumbing work to the rough plumbing on the building, as they were constructing it. And I had a conversation with him. Turns out, he's that guy. And here's the strange part. That plumber now has, like six employees and six vans, and he's making an absolute killing. And no one goes to where he's lives and sees what he's accomplished, and said, Wow, where'd you go to school? They asked the same thing that they asked of me, how did you grind out this wonderful life that you have? Well, it's that thing, it's the division, it's the stand back moment, it's the motivation, it's having someone give you a second chance, or even the first chance. And that it's, it's just such a wonderful story. Because here's a guy who said, You know what, I'm going to keep it simple. I'm going to be resilient, and I'm going to persist like crazy until this happens. And boom, within a couple of years, he had this thriving business, which he still has, and, and he's doing very well. So when it comes to opportunities, like I said before, because so few people are willing to do this type of work anymore. It's going to stay a really hot topic for a very long period of time, and the people that are willing to do it, the people that are willing to shun the stigma and the norms of society that say you should do something else, those people are going to win big time.

GREG VOISEN:
Yeah, you know, it's a, it's something interesting from regions of the country. In Toledo, Ohio versus San Diego, we have very strong immigration population that does much of this work. And you will very seldom see a Caucasian person working on a construction site or doing landscaping, or working in the kitchen anymore. And it's really unfortunate, because that, and I'm not going to say that sense of entitlement, but it's almost like people are saying, well, I'm, I'm entitled, I don't have to do that. That kind of work. I don't have to clean toilets. I don't have to be the janitor. I don't have to do this. I know because I consult a company with 110 employees and 90 plus of those employees are Hispanic. And those are the guys that are making the lawns clean every day and are trimming the bushes and trimming the trees and making shopping centers beautiful, and I get it. But what I don't get is why we don't have more people of our color complexion doing that work. And it's because they're coming out of high school going to college. Right? So you're saying and you speak about the word initiative, and that's really important here, because I think many people and I'm not downgrading anybody, they don't have that initiative. Whereas people who come in as immigrants have a lot of initiative they want to get a job they want to make their work life better for him. It wasn't as great as it has been in the United States, what the word is absolutely full of old and new opportunities to be taken advantage of you say? So what are the characteristics of a blue collar entrepreneur?
KEN RUSK:
Well, yeah, this is, again, thank you for asking this question. Because this comes to the crux of the matter. You know, if you want to talk about the immigrants coming to this country, you will always hear the same couple words. Okay, the same three words, seeking better life. Okay, I'm always like, and what does that mean? That means that they have a vision for something better than they currently have. That, you know, when someone says to you, do you see what I mean? You know, a lot of times when someone's trying to explain something to you, they'll say, do you see what I mean? And what they're asking you to do is, Can you visualize what's in their brain? what they're thinking? Can you see the picture that they're putting into their own mind? That's why they say, Do you see what I mean? Okay, so when I look at that, and I think of seeking a better life, well, I look at it this way, you know, entrepreneurs, that isn't just something that you're born with, I know people think that it is, and maybe like the super industrialists of the world, maybe they have a higher level of thinking, I get that, but for most run of the mill entrepreneurs, okay, we all have one thing in common, we saw what we wanted. First, we drew it out, we documented it in some way, we, we put that brochure in our nightstand and looked at it every single night before we went to bed. And then that awoke that that created all these characteristics. You know, every one of us has vision and faith and courage and initiative, humility, persistence, resilience, simplicity, generosity, every one of us has these things inside of ourselves, we just have to have a reason to get them out. Okay, it's like, it's like the socks in your in the back of your sock drawer that you haven't worn for many years, you just need a reason to bring up to bring that out. And I'm convinced that it is the vision that people start with, that creates or awakens all of these entrepreneurial characteristics. What I'm getting at is we can all be entrepreneurs, every one of us if we just have a reason to do it.

GREG VOISEN:
Yeah, you know, I was on a call last night around a subject called Flux, because they are the author was saying that we have to have an opportunity in this environment we live in today to be flexible. And they were talking about one gentleman was talking about these serial jobs that people coming out now have, they don't just keep one, they basically work at one, then they go to another and they have another now from our generation. It was always we'll stay in this one job for forever, right? In other words, that my mom and my dad, that was it. And I even myself, I've switched maybe four times. The podcast thing is a vocation, something I love doing. But I have other work I couldn't make. I'm not making a living doing this. So my point is that, you know, that whole concept of saying, Well, I tried plumbing, I didn't like it. Well, great. Maybe you want to try framing or drywall? Or you want to try something else? What would you tell people listening today about that element, you know, being able to switch positions, and continue to do it until you find something you really, really enjoy?
KEN RUSK:
Well, I can tell you this, you know, with today's economy, you know, there if you go from my office run standing right now to the freeway, which is two miles away, you're going to pass 25 125 help wanted signs, okay. It wasn't always like that. It didn't always used to be that way. And the thing is, if you're one of those people who's willing to come to work on time, perhaps show up early. Looks so big. Yeah, shake their hand, you know, present yourself well, and be willing to work, you're going to stick out amongst the crowd where it used to be that you would be one of the crowd, because there's so few of people willing to behave in that manner towards vocations. Okay. So I look at the ability of someone to say, You know what, there's a lot of opportunities out there. I'm going to try a few of those, whether you take a gap year or whatever you do, I'm going to try some of those different jobs and see which ones that that I like that I might be interested in that I might say, Wow, I really love that stand back moment. That was really cool. You know, but again, I think I think you can't really appreciate what job will do for you, if you don't know where you're going. I mean, a job is kind of like a car. And I don't remember ever pulling out of the driveway of my car, putting it in Drive, and in saying, Wow, I don't know where the heck I'm going, Okay, you always have a destination in mind when you drive your car, the job is the same exact way. But you have to start with the destination, you have to start with what you want your life to look like, first, and then drive that car or that job towards that ultimate goal.

GREG: VOISEN:
Yeah, and I think the important thing is, it, if you did find yourself in a position that you didn't like, it's not a mistake, you've actually now found out one additional thing that you don't like, and I, my son came here the other night, you know, and, and we were having a father son talk and I said, you know, no decision is the worst decision you can make. Just make a decision and stick with it. You know, don't tell me you have these 15 different opportunities, go pray on it, contemplate on it, meditate on it, and pick one and go for it. And I think there is, as you said, there's 25 signs between your house and the freeway, well find out which one of those signs you want to walk into and apply to right, and then go for, don't apply to all 25 really show up with everything that you want to do. And if you made a mistake, that's fine. It's not a failure. It's a learning lesson. So if you were to leave these listeners with three key points, people that are out there today, that they would like to leave them with that they can take some action on, and kind of move toward peace, comfort and freedom. And one of the things I say is, Ken's got this course I'm going to mention it again, right now. It's normally $99 through our link, it's going to be $69. So you're going to save it, it's an insignificant amount of money for a great course that he's put together. Also, we're going to have a link to the book on Amazon, all you have to do is click the link and you can get a copy of the book. I think the books included with the $69 offer, right? Yes. So if you go for the offer that that Ken's making, this book will be included, you will get the book itself, and the book alone is like $27, or whatever. So quite an offer quite an offer. So what would you leave the listeners with today?
KEN RUSK:
First off, you know, when I think about books, you know that there's a, I love it when somebody is well read, you know, they have a lot of books, um, you have a lot of books behind you there, okay, you're obviously are a lover of information. I think, for me, I need to make sure that the information that you see in the book doesn't just sit on a shelf for a long period of time without your having gotten any better or any different or acting any different or moving forward from it. So I created this course. And you know, I've seen courses out there for 300 $500,000. No, I've been blessed, I've been very fortunate, too much is given much as expected. All I'm trying to do is cover the cost of this of this course, and its creation over the last few years, which is a substantial amount of money. And you'll see why when you look at the course. But I guess what I'm saying is, if you if you if you just take this course, if you just if you just go through the steps, you will come out the other side, a completely changed person. And here's how number one you're going to realize, I have a vision for what the rest of my life is going to look like. And I don't care whether you're 17 or 50, I have a vision now for what I want my Nirvana to be for what I want comfort, peace and freedom to look like for me, that's number one. Number two, you're going to understand that you and only you know what that is, no one else can tell you what your happiness is you and only you know what you're passionate about what you're good at what you'd like to do, and what you'd like to have as a result of that. Okay, and then finally, you know, you're so in control of that vision and in of what you want that I guess the best part is, your brain will naturally attract itself to the completion of that result. You know, I've never had a goal that I looked at every day, whether it was a boat or a car or a golf swing, or you know, helping someone else or writing a book or becoming a best seller, were starting a new business or I never had something that I really focused on and had right in front of me not come to fruition. And the reason is, is your brain is just immensely more powerful than we all give it credit for. It will find a way to make your body act and react in a way that you will go after and you will complete those goals no matter what they are.

GREG VOISEN:
Well, I think no matter if the steps you look at because we've had plenty of authors on here, write about the steps, the last one was the art of impossible with Steven Kotler. And, you know, he's studied this, how we work. And I'll leave the listeners with just this, you know, number one, get the course you'll get the book, get the book, you don't have to take the course, we'll have a link to either or, but you know, he says, if you are focuses for free, so can you're obviously very focused person. That's one thing he said. Secondly, if you're curious, hopefully, you've got a high level of curiosity. And you do, I'm talking to my listeners now. And if the curiosity then leads you to three passions, and you can find a link between those three passions, whatever it might be giving you building houses, being a plumber, whatever the passion might be racing cars, I don't care. Now find the link. Now develop your purpose, define your purpose, then after you define that purpose, set the goals around that purpose. And then the last part of it in which I know you've done, it takes a ton of grit and determination to work toward those goals associated with those purpose. It just didn't magically appear where you lay down on the sofa, and everything manifested for you. So I want to encourage my listeners, number one, if you want to hear it, pardon me, I'm going to say this Ken from the horse's mouth, somebody who's done blue collar work, and created abundance from it, and then has shared that abundance with the world. Please pick up Ken's book, and or sign up for the link that we're going to have to the course. And thanks for being on insight, personal growth, and spending a few minutes with my listeners, so that they can learn more about you and everything that you're doing. I really appreciate it.
KEN RUSK:
Well, Greg, thank you. It was great to be with you today. And I really enjoyed our conversation. So I guess the only other thing I'll tell you is I do donate all the proceeds from my book and the course back to young kids who are in need of something like this. So just know that if you decide to take the course or buy the book or whatever, you will not only be doing that to help yourself, but you will definitely be helping somebody else in the process.

GREG VOISEN:
I really appreciate that. So thank you so much and blessings to you, your family. Nicole, your wife, everybody in the Rusk family who's doing what they're doing to help the world.
KEN RUSK:
You as well. Thank you Greg.

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It was my distinct honor to interview author Gary Zukav again in my podcast.  This is my second interview with Gary, the first was in 2010 for his book entitled Spiritual Partnership-The Journey to Authentic Power. He is back in the show to talk about his new book entitled “Universal Human: Creating Authentic Power and the New Consciousness.”

In this interview  with the author of the #1 New York Times bestseller “The Seat of the Soul,” I was so focused listening to his words of wisdom as we talk about life, power, love and courage.  If you want to be inspired, I encourage you to listen to this engaging interview with author Gary Zukav.

If you want to learn more about Gary and his books, please click here to be directed to his website.  There you will also be able to explore a lot of resources as well as his upcoming live events and programs.

THE BOOK

Universal Human gives us new tools to grow spiritually and shows us how to transform everyday experiences of hopelessness, emptiness, and pain into fulfillment, meaning, and joy. It points us toward a startling new destination—a species that is beyond culture, religion, nation, ethnic group, and gender, a species whose allegiance is to Life first and all else second—and shows us how to get there.

Universal Human examines our disintegrating social structures and the new social structures that are replacing them. It shows us a new creation story—our new creation story—as we create it with our choices, our deeds, and our words.

 

THE AUTHOR

Gary Zukav for years has conveyed the most complex insights in language all can understand. Over and over, he challenges us to see the depth of our potential in the world.. and act on that awareness. His gentle presence, humor, and wisdom have inspired millions to realize their soul’s greatest potential.

A master teacher and author of four consecutive New York Times bestsellers, Gary is dedicated to the unprecedented transformation in human consciousness – an entirely new threshold in the human experience.

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth, and I have returning author, Gary Zukav. Joining me from Ashland, Oregon, which we were just reminiscing about Ashland and where I live and so on. And for all of those who don't know Gary the book we're going to be talking about is called Universal Human, and the subtitle is Creating Authentic Power and the New Consciousness. He's also the author of Seat of the Soul. He is the author of many books and Gary. I'm going to let our listeners know a little bit about you. You can find out more about Gary by going to what I would consider to be one of the loveliest websites if you want to see some great pictures it's called the Seat of the Soul institute that seat of the soul.com. There you can learn more about Gary, you can more, Learn more about Linda Francis as well which is his spiritual partner. But Gary for years, has been taking the most complex insights and language for all of us to understand and I just said that to him a minute ago he meets people in the middle. Over and over he challenges us to see the depth of our potential in the world, and act on that awareness. You have got to find through the course of this interview, that Gary's general presence and his humor and his wisdom have inspired millions to realize their soul's greatest potential. Gary's if you want to learn more about Gary as well. You can go to Wikipedia, if you really want to get in depth, but in 79 He wrote the book dancing. Whoo, Master. In 1989, the seat of the soul in 2000 sold stories in 2007 soul to soul communications from the heart and the latest book, universal human. He's a Vietnam vet part of the US special forces in Green Berets in Vietnam. He's won countless awards, and it's just a pleasure having you on. He also was in on the Oprah show where he sold 6 million copies of his books. So Gary, you know, in the previous bestselling books, one being the seat of the soul, and many people have that you call upon the readers to align their personalities with their souls. And in this book universal human. You state that our world is filled with pain, and that our behaviors are driven by notions that power insecurity come through manipulation and control. What is this new era and evolutionary path that you would like to see you're obviously making people aware of what is available to them as universal humans to follow. What does that look like and feel like for you, Gary.

Gary Zukav
I feel at its looks and feels. Similarly to hundreds of millions of people. And that right now. There is an unprecedented epic transformation to human consciousness that's occurring, and it's about a generation old, a human generation so it's not that at all. And within another few generations, everyone will be touched by this consciousness. This consciousness is an expansion of our awareness. It's not a change in what we think or feel is a change in what we can think or feel. It is unprecedented. It is. It has no, no, nothing to compare it with except the genesis of humankind. So that's how big this. This transformation is. And as you acquire this new consciousness wish you don't have to do anything to acquire. It's a gift from the universe. But as you acquire it, you begin to have multi sensory perceptions. So we use that term because the five senses together form a single system whose object of detection is physical reality. We've got another system now makes us multi sensory, so you'll be familiar with much of this or perhaps all of it, Greg, but if you've ever had a thought that you're more than a mind and a body. That's a multi sensory perception. If you've ever had. The hunch or the impulse that the world is not random. It is not just a place where you have good luck or bad luck, but that it's wise, and you can learn about yourself from the world. That's a multi sensory perception. If you've ever looked at the sky at night and had the thought that the universe isn't cold inert, which means dead, merciless, but that it's alive, wise, and it's compassionate. That is a multi sensory perception and there's lots more. Lots and lots more.

Greg Voisen
And I think, I think it's important to Gary to mention that, through my countless 900 interviews I talk a lot about spirituality and I go back to an interview with rom Das. Now, there couldn't be anybody that probably experimented more with drugs to have an altered state of consciousness or people who do Iosco, But you're letting people know that you know this. Out of Body this century, sensory experience beyond the five senses is available to anybody right now available without anything, it's there. Yeah,

Gary Zukav
it is there but it's not. By the way, ROM das became a dear friend of ours in the last years of his life. It turned out that we were both on Maui together. My spiritual partner Linda Francis would go there because we have some connection with that little island that I don't understand. And we have for 30 years. And when we met rom dos and he was a delight to me.

Greg Voisen
He was wonderful. I mean, even after the stroke, it was a challenge to kind of get the words but when he got the words. They were so meaningful you listened, on the edge of your seat, to understand what he was speaking about the only reason I brought that up, Gary is because, you know, we live in this fast paced world today which you see what appears to be zooming by you and I are closer to our finitude than a lot of people. In other words as you age, you also get to look at the death experience, and you get to choose whether it's fear, because you talk a lot about fear. And not to approach this with fear and not to look at this multi sensory experience as an opportunity to move beyond fear. Correct,

Gary Zukav
yes. But I would add a few things to that, okay to talk more about love and I talk about fear. And I can't talk about one without talking about the other, because this in the earth school put it that way, that span of time between your birthday and your death day is the domain of time and space, and matter and duality. And the fundamental duality in the earth school is love and fear. The opposite of love is not hate, it's fear. And I just wanted to clarify that as

Greg Voisen
well but illusion, you know, or illusion to because you speak about that as well. In the Buddhist tradition. It's the Maya. And the reality is we are actors on the stage of a play, and you say in the book you mentioned people experience emotional pain when they cannot have something they feel they need or cannot live without. This is true, that is a true statement. You then state, they try to change the world. And this brings more pain. What needs to shift in the consciousness of the individual to be at peace and bliss, so that they don't experience so much emotional pain because that pain is being exacerbated by that desire that you just spoke about, trying to get something they can't have. So I'd love for you to speak about that and expound upon it, from your perspective.

Gary Zukav
Sure, I'd like to clear up something though, multi sensory perception isn't necessarily an out of body experience, and it's not a psychedelic experience, it's associated with any kind of psycho psychotropic agent, whether it's chemical or plant based, but it is an expansion of your perception, you see the world with your physical eyes. You hear it, you have your five senses. But it's more meaningful. It's deeper. It takes on a meaning. It's as though you're watching a black and white movie that's becoming a movie in color as you watch it. Now when, so expect, and you will experience it whether you expect it or not as a new consciousness touches you, you will begin to experience a new depth to your experience. Some people are delighted by it. Some are a little confused by it, some are frightened by it, but it's happening to us. Now, when we talk about fear and love, where we're going. His love is what rom Das, and many others talked about his talk specifically about loving awareness. He was a meditator in his tradition was Indian. But this new awareness is taking us beyond traditions beyond culture beyond nation beyond religions. Beyond ethnic groups, beyond gender. Right now we are in the midst of the most remarkable transition in human consciousness and evolution that humans have ever experienced. The transition from five sensory perception which means that the world is all, all that you can see of the world is five senses. Or put another way, the five senses show you everything there is to see an experience, and the understanding of power, as the ability to manipulate and control. All of that is the old consciousness. The new consciousness is multi sensory perception, and the understanding and experience of power, as alignment of the personality with the soul, the alignment of your personality with your soul and your soul is not a hypothetical or theological thing, it is a real presence, it is the essence of who you are. And it is real, and it has intentions and those intentions are harmony, cooperation, sharing, and reverence for life. And as you begin to align your personality yourself with your soul. You begin to acquire authentic power, you begin to create it. And it's not like multi sensory perception, a gift that is given to everyone, multi sensory perception brings with it. The new potential of a new power, authentic power. And this new potential is Arne. Now, evolutionary modality. It's not a spiritual luxury, it's required for our evolution. In other words, you can say this in so many ways. Evolution is now becoming conscious that's one way to say it, our evolution now requires not survival, but spiritual growth.

Greg Voisen
I would agree with you that our evolution

Gary Zukav
requires us to become loving, and all of us have frightened and loving parts of our personalities and authentic power is becoming aware within yourself, of the difference between love and fear, and choosing love no matter what is happening inside of you, like rage, like jealousy, like vengeance, or what is happening outside of you, like another 911 event or a global pandemic and choosing love no matter what. So that's it.

Greg Voisen
That's a great way to kind of put a wrapper around what we're talking about and I think that, you know, whether you're looking at from a spiritual side and neurological side a psychological side. The reality is that fundamentally we have been able to advance our understanding of what's happening to us from a scientific with because of neurobiology and neurology, to see what's going on in the brain, and what you're talking about is something outside of that. And that connection whether using intuition, or using something to get in touch with that. Now you, you do speak about in the book, the great change you call it the great change which we've just talked about, and that it is upon us that it's absolute world is disintegrating, we're seeing this world. Lots of things fall apart monetary systems Bitcoin you name it whatever the listeners are out there, we're seeing things being challenged. And we're seeing things shift, and our five senses no longer limit our experiences is what you said in the book that we are in a new dawn, and I say, Yes we are. And thank goodness we are. How is the new level of consciousness going to change our human species, and our new creation story in your estimation big question.

Gary Zukav
Well, I like to share with all of our listeners and with you, Greg. That I don't ask that you take anything that I say is, as so simply because I say it. And in fact, I suggest to all of our listeners and viewers that you're not take as So, or as true, anything that anyone says, simply because I've written a book or they have a television show or a podium or a congregation. For me, if you resonate with anything that I say, I suggest that you experiment with it and see if it works for you. And if it does experiment some more. And if it doesn't let it go. Don't try to wear a shoe that doesn't fit. So it's in that context that I love talking about the new consciousness, and the new understanding of power as authentic as alignment of your personality with your soul, and how to create it, because it doesn't just happen, and our world isn't going to just shift because we have a new consciousness, it will shift because we change because we shift, and everything that I and my spiritual partner Linda Francis share is about how to create authentic power, how to develop emotional awareness, how to use what you learned through becoming emotionally aware, and how to make responsible choices. A responsible choice is a choice that creates consequences for which you are willing to assume responsibility. All of that is movement toward love. You might look that the way I'm expressing love. And by the way, there are so many forms of fear, like anger, jealousy, vengeance superiority and entitlement inferiority needing to please. Every obsession and compulsion and addiction. In the same way. There are so many forms of love, gratitude, appreciation, caring, patience, content passion, that is all of the universe, and creating authentic power requires distinguishing between those parts of yourself that are loving, or love based, and those parts of your personality, that are fear based or frightened and choosing while you are experiencing a frightened part like anger or jealousy, and it's very gripping and it seems as though the whole world is the way this part of your personality, presents it to you and you experience it that way, but while you are experiencing that with your volition your own freewill, you reach for the healthiest part of your personality that you can access and act from that, instead of from the anger or the jealousy or the resentment or the superiority. That is how you create authentic power by doing it again and again and again. And eventually, as you do. The frightened parts of your personality, began to lose their control over you, they still come you still feel the painful physical sensations of fear in different areas of your body chakras in the east, and they throb or ache or churn burn stab compress they're, they're really painful. And why you're experiencing those things, set the intention not to act on them. There's very good respond in the best way that you can in the moment with love. That is now required for our evolution. This doesn't mean that we're going to evolve it means it's required for our evolution. And that's what I mean when I say our evolution has become conscious, and it's happening in us, it's happening and I say now to our listeners and viewers it's happening in you.

Greg Voisen
Yes, it is right and I think Gary. One of the things that I might add to this, is the fact that there is a level of discernment, you know, I think, people hear this term psychologically the ego, and then they hear this term soul. And for many there's a disconnection there because for a lot of people with five sensory, there is still a lot of that element of that, if you, you might refer to it as something else but I'm just going to call it, ego as identifier, because it's the thing that makes us small, it can make us small. If we listened to it enough, it can tell us we're not right, we're not enough. And we know that yet on the other hand, when we listen to the small voice inside, call it again of the soul, the seat of the soul. That's the empowering one. And when that's an alignment as you're saying that gives us true power. Now you mentioned in the book in this chapter. Outside the fences, I love the title you state we are personalities and souls and we have a dual identity, just what I was talking about, speak with us about the dual identity and living outside the fences, as you refer to it.

Gary Zukav
Sure, sure.

A child grows because and finds itself in an environment like a backyard with a fence around it, because his experiences are limited. And within that confinement. It explores all that it can. It's got a play box, a sandbox, it's got a little Swain, It's got a little shovel and digs up plants and it gets sturdy in it. And as it develops, it eventually leaves that confined area behind in that area if sand. Here's an example from the, from universal human among 1000s Probably. If sand falls from its sandbox. That can be a traumatic experience for a child in the backyard. Even if on the other side of the fence, there's a beach. We talked about living in Southern California where that happens sometimes. Well as we become multi sensory, we go into a larger we enter a larger learning environment, we move beyond the fences and not fences plural but fence. The fence that confined us in our early stages of development is five sensory perception. We could not recognize it as the defining characteristic of our species. While we were confined by it. Now we are moving beyond that, that is the new consciousness that is multi sensory perception,

Greg Voisen
that is a that is a great analogy of using the fence and the child in the backyard because all of us have been there, and all of us realize the limitation of the world in which we lived until we expanded the boundary. And I think what you're saying is that it's limitless. There really aren't fences. And you know, we've been talking about authentic power Gary, and you say authentic power is different. You say that knowing how to create it is like owning a treasure map. That's quote unquote you. How do we create authentic power in our lives and what probably more importantly my listeners will want to know are, what are the tools for creating authentic power, you were a guy who rode motorcycles you were in the Green Berets, and you know when you get a toolbox, you got to pick the right tool if you're going to change the tire. What are some of the tools for creating authentic power in the world today, in which we live, which has shifted consciously so much

Gary Zukav
emotional awareness and responsible choice. I'll be glad to talk about them some more because they're so fundamental. And

in the old consciousness emotions are not important. In fact they're generally considered obstacles, especially painful emotions. In the new consciousness, emotions are very important. They're very important you might call them messages from the soul. They tell you. When fear is active in you. And when love is active in you. When fear is active in you. You experience painful physical sensations in certain areas of your body, such as your throat, and your chest and your solar plexus areas, among others. Those are the painful physical sensations that I mentioned, is to say I'm happy or I'm sad or I'm up or I'm down, or I'm buoyant, or depressed. Those are not. That's emotional illiteracy, to become emotionally literate. You need to be able to put your attention inside these areas of your body, and see what physical sensations are present. I'm emphasizing the word physical because a painful, a, a frightened part of your personality can be as painful as hitting your hammer your thumb with a hammer or getting your fingers caught in a car door heartache, is not poetic. It's a real thing, and it's very painful. When you look inside yourself and you find any of these sensations in any of your energy processing centers, which, as I mentioned in ECE would be called chakras, you know, that fear is active in you. And a lot of people are not aware of what they're feeling. And therefore, they're. Therefore, Darien fear. Fear can happen unconsciously and does continually. Love does not, you can accidentally experience love. You can unconsciously create love. It has to be done. Love is intentional. This doesn't mean that when you experience love it's effortless, it's not intentional. Look at love, as I read about the great sculptor Michelangelo once Michelangelo, for those of you who don't know, was one of the greatest sculptors of all time he lived in Renaissance Italy. And I was in Florence once for NZ Italia, and I saw a 17 foot high sculpture of David, as in David and Goliath in Italian and in French, it's called the Dahveed. Great. I could not believe I was looking at Morrible. It was so soft. Visually soft so sensual, so real. So, absolutely human. That's what Michelangelo could do. And I heard a story once that he was asked, How did you do that. And he said, I saw it, I saw it in the block of marble, and I removed everything that prevented says, Your love is like that, it's there. And as you create authentic power. You start removing pieces of marble, pieces of fear that prevent you, as well as others from experiencing your love. That's the creation of authentic power. Every time you set an intention to speak or act with love, instead of with fear, you chip away, a piece of marble. By the way, and intention and intention is so important. I said that emotions are very important, and they are they're fundamental to creating authentic power, but intentions are the most primary of all, and intention is a quality of consciousness.

Greg Voisen
Let me ask you a question about an intention then, because I have one. Most people are unaware of their intentions you stated, and for most of the time, their lives, you mentioned in the books are robotically repetitive. Agreed. You mentioned that the best way to become aware of what we're doing to ourselves is to examine the belief system. And again, one more element of chipping away, like you just talked about with Michelangelo, it would be the belief systems, or the shifts we're going to get. We're going to remove those beliefs that don't serve us. How would you advise listeners to become more aware of these beliefs and shift the ones shift them or get rid of them. The ones that are not serving them.

Gary Zukav
Well, to start, I want to go back to something you mentioned, as we're, some of us are five sensory and some of us are multi sensory at the moment more humans are five sensory than multi sensory, because this remarkable transformation in our consciousness fast as it is, is still extending over a few generations. And remember that the old consciousness emerged over hundreds of 1000s of years about 300,000 years. If you go back to the emergence of Homo sapiens if you go back to the emergence of hominids, it goes back two and a half million years. And in comparison to that. I'm talking about a transformation of consciousness of equal immensity happening within three human generations, that's faster than a heartbeat faster than an eye blink when compared to our former experiences of evolutionary time. So, at this moment. We're living in a time of transition, unlike any that's ever existed before. We stand with one foot in the old consciousness and one foot in the new. And we are presented with a requirement of choosing at each moment, which we shall choose, say someone makes you angry or jealous or resentful, will you react. Will you act with fear, or will you respond with love. Will you let your deeds and your words be shaped by the old consciousness, or by the new. So belief systems are important quite important. But the first step is emotional awareness. Because without emotional awareness. You cannot know when fear is present in you. And when love is active in you, and the importance of that is knowing that fear is active in you, tells you that if you act or speak from that energy, you will create painful and destructive consequences for yourself. The pursuit of external power. Now, produces only violence and destruction.

Greg Voisen
Express. Can I ask you a question, Gary. Most of my listeners have been very well aware of the decisiveness that's been happening in our world as a result of COVID as a result of our political system as a result, many external factors which seems to have bifurcated. Much of the situation and you're saying, we have a choice to come from love, or come from fear, it would seem if you were to watch the evening news which you probably don't, but a lot of people do that, there's still a ton of five sensories, and they are coming from fear. What comment would you give our listening audience about this because many of them are spiritually consciously aware, and you like you just said you have a choice you have one foot in each side. It seems to be pretty easy to be drugged over into that side. I'm against something I'm not for something or you following what I'm saying. But this seems to pervade as a result of some external factors which have exacerbated. And now we see what seems to be no coming together.

Gary Zukav
This is not new, Greg. This is human history, you're describing is not the recent political situation in the United States or Germany or Brazil. It is not the fragmentation of our wholeness as humanity as humans. There's. We've always been fragmented into haves and have nots. Those who are healthy and those who are ill, those who are of one color, and those who are of another. The list is endless. This is the history that five century humans have created for themselves. It's, it's based on conflict. Now, what used to be our good medicine, external power is poisonous. It's toxic. It used to be that we as a five century species evolved by surviving and survived by pursuing external power. Now, we are becoming a multi sensory he's species. And we evolve by growing spiritually. And we grow spiritually. By creating authentic power. It's a new terrain, and most of the people in it are still five sensory. Our being multi sensory does not make us superior or advantaged advantaged Yes, because our evolution can be accelerated considerably. Our spiritual growth. Pardon me. I can be accelerated considerably, but we are not superior to what we have been in the past. We are not superior to those who are still five sensory, we are all in the school together. We are souls incarnate in this domain of the five senses. But within that domain. Those of us who are being touched by multi sensory perception realize that domain is not the entirety of our existence, or the universe,

Greg Voisen
or that that's an important point, and you, you have a chapter in the book, and you call it, the new use of courage. I loved this chapter is by the way, and you tell the story about your experiences of being in the Special Forces in Vietnam, and the courage it took you to jump out and the dark night in the jungles of Vietnam from a C 130. You then mentioned that you never imagined how much courage, entering your life consciously would require and want to repeat that, how much courage, entering your life consciously would require. Tell us a bit about the fears and the courage it took, as you started living your life, way back then to wait, you know, if you look at your life you're 78 years old right so you know you've had a long period like I have had to experiment, to get to where your term is this universal human, which are more consciously aware. What, what do you mean, just from you, Gary. Zhukov, the guy that writes all the books, not everybody else out here, has written books about this, probably want to see how Gary faced it.

Gary Zukav
Of course, one of the things that I would bring out is, is that when you begin to see with multi sensory perception. The distinction between in here and out there becomes blurry. And that you begin to realize that the love and fear in the world, is the same love and fear in you. So in order to change the world. You've got to change yourself. In other words, the world that we have inherited from a five sensory humanity is a world of external power symbols of external power are everywhere, uniforms, weapons, money corner offices on high floors.

Now we are in a different terrain. And in that terrain, we encounter experiences that the intellect cannot comprehend cannot grasp, but a new way of communicating and understanding is emerging with the new consciousness. This is a higher order of logics and understandings of the heart. They're things that were contradictions to the intellect are not contradictions to the heart. The intellect is a companion to the five senses, they go together just like this. The intellect, analyzes, explores compares and concludes, and deduces what the five senses presented in terms of what is helpful in creating and pursuing external power. The higher order logics and understandings of the heart are not compatible with the intellect, the intellect was not designed to grasp them, and it cannot its object of detection. The object of detection of five sensory perception is physical reality. Right, and the intellect, examines it, and points out to the personality, what it can control and manipulate in order to survive. Now, we are multi sensory Greg, not all of us, some of us, but a new consciousness is here. And the old consciousness is dying. The new consciousness is vibrant life affirming life giving life nurturing the old consciousness is rigid. It's demanding. It's toxic. And it is destructive. This is the enormity of where we are now, which shall we choose multisensory perception does not make us more. The nificent or more wise. It makes us more aware. Then the question becomes, what shall we do with our awareness. And what I'm suggesting is that what you do with your awareness which means What shall you do with your life. What shall you do with this temporary experience you have between your death day. Your birthday and your death day that the best thing you can do is to create authentic power is to align your personality with your soul is to move beyond the limitations of everything that prevents you from giving the gifts that you were born to give everything that prevents you from a life of meaning and fulfillment and joy and contentment and vitality and creativity. Do that now. Most people wait until their lives become so painful that something in their lives brings them to their knees. That's when they open to a spiritual alternative. I'm suggesting that you're not wait that long. We're not starting now.

Greg Voisen
Right. Well Gary, if you go back to the many books you've written, and you look at the impetus for your curiosity to want to understand more about this. And I think this might be an interesting question for you and for our listeners to understand, because of the preceding books, and the evolution of Gary zoo koffice soul, and this constant curiosity to write books around this topic around through and in this topic. Was there anything particular I know you went to the laboratories work with physicist, you look at all the things that you did jumped out of planes you rode motorcycles. You were addicted to sex when your dad in in San Francisco, you had all these life experiences. Was there any one life experience, any one big transformation for you, that created this insatiable appetite and curiosity to want to continue to explore this topic so others could have clarity in their life about what it is.

Gary Zukav
Greg it's for me. There was no single turning point. There were multiple turning points. Okay, and I wouldn't say insatiable appetite. Exactly. I would say it's more like a flower naturally turns toward the sun. Okay. And none of my understanding or insights came from books, the books came from the understandings and the insights, and they came from the universe. That's why I suggest that you not take anything that I say is true but experiment with it, experiment with it yourself. Because, creating authentic power is now required for evolution. I'm suggesting, and creating authentic power is becoming the authority in your own life. And I love writing these books and I love having these conversations like we're having now. And the more I do the more. My life has transformed from one of using people to loving them. It's a big change. My adopted su uncle once told me, Toshka if you said the longest journey you're going to make in your life is from here to here, head to your heart, and my thoughts to my heart, and, and I've been on that journey for a while. Yeah, for me, it's made all the difference, all the difference. What a surprise, it is to find out that I love people, and that I want to support them. And it gives me joy. There's a difference between happiness and joy, happiness is what happens when a frightened part of your personality gets what it wants. For example, gets the girlfriend gets the boyfriend makes a million dollars before it's 28, but happiness is dependent on the external world. You get the girlfriend but then when she decides to leave you freefall into fear again, like taking a ride on a roller coaster at the top. And then, plunging down into interferer again. Joy is not dependent on the external world. Joy is what you ignite in yourself as you create authentic power, and sometimes just like a little flame in a large cathedral. And you have to be aware, to keep it alive. But joy when it grow, joy, grows when you cultivated. And as you cultivated. The frightened parts of your personality, have less control over you. Yes, when they had in the past, you still feel them, you still feel their painful physical sensations, you still think they're judgmental thoughts, but they don't control you as much they don't penetrate, as they did before. They roll off of you more like water rolls off the feathers of a duck, and you begin to expand into more loving perceptions.

Greg Voisen
Well, it gives you a freedom that, and maybe freedom isn't the right word but I'm gonna say spiritual freedom. Freedom, as you've said, this is about spiritual growth, and it is. And you stayed in the book again that being a universal human is a step beyond an authenticity or authentically powered human. You said a universal human identifies with life, underscore, life. So in your estimation. What is the experience of becoming a universal human, which we've been talking about and living our lives as evolved and consciously aware souls.

Gary Zukav
I can't answer that in detail, and no one can University universal human is a third stage in the evolutionary process that we are involved in now the first stage was five sensory perception. We all know that. The second stage is multi sensory perception, and hundreds of millions of us are beginning to experience that. A five sensory human identifies with personality, his or her personality. I'm Gary Zhukov you're Craig Voisen You were born at a certain time and you'll die at a certain time, a multi sensory human knows that birth is not a random event, and death is not final. It's the return home of the soul, to non physical reality. Yes, the identity of a multi sensory human is so, so we are in this transition now from five sensory to multi sensory, it's so rapid as our acceleration that even in this process. A third stage in human evolution is now becoming not visible. Not touchable not understandable. but there. If you've ever been up all night to see the dawn, as I have. He'll say, your own, you will experience this time, before any light is visible in the sky. You can feel the dawn coming. You know it's coming, and then past that point. A little bit of light becomes detectable to your eyes. But you could feel it before it happened. That sun new dawn had different on that is the, the potential of the universal human. So great,

Greg Voisen
a great way for people to understand, edit that example of the new dawn, the light that you could see the experience from darkness to light, you know, in duality. You can't have one without the other. And I think that's a great example. And, and you say in this book. You said that the book, it, it's all about a book with universal Herman's and ends with heart begins with heart and heart fills all the spaces in between that our experiences are no longer determined by circumstances that are external. What would you like to leave these listeners with today, about their role in this human evolution of consciousness, or becoming more evolved multi sensory individuals in the role they're playing to help evolve themselves, the people around them. And the people within this universe as it is we're sitting on a globe with 7 billion plus people. I always remember Bucky Fuller, because I wrote a chapter in a book that a guy wrote about Bucky Fuller, and he always said, Gary and you probably heard this one of all people seek to leave the people so that they understand not misunderstand something to that effect I may be misunder quoting it. And what I'm saying here is if we're going to leave these listeners with something. What would you like for them to understand and not misunderstand.

Gary Zukav
You are a world changer. Your decisions. Your choices of intention, love or fear. Create consequences far beyond what you can imagine, this becomes largely visible as we become multi sensory. Use it. Use your life, consciously, and as you use it consciously, to the best of your ability. Use it wisely. What is the wise use of a life. The wise use of a life is also the use that gives you the most fulfillment and joy. It's love is caring about other people. It's recognizing them not as others. But beginning to experience them as not separate from you, not in a mushy fuzzy psychedelic or blurred way. So, I would say, don't try to understand the world is no longer going to be shaped by great thinkers, But by great feelers and you are one, but you may not know it yet. Most people don't, and they're quite frightened of it. They're quite frightened of the pain of fear of anger of jealousy of resentment of need. But you cannot become aware of the love in you have the care, the patients that contentment, the joy, without becoming aware of everything in you. And the thing that most people become aware of. First, as they become multi sensory is fear. Because that's what fills most people. So, follow your heart. Don't try to follow the fake god of your mind. Follow your heart, the real God. That's where your fulfillment, contentment, vitality, meaning, purpose, joy, all of those things that make life magnificent. Your life is magnificent. It doesn't matter how much it hurts in the moment when I say it doesn't matter. It means it doesn't diminish the power of who you are. But the pain in your life, is the distance between the reality of who you are, which is a powerful and creative compassionate and loving spirit and your self identity. And as you create authentic power, you'll begin to close the distance between that reality, and who you experience yourself as this is the alignment of your personality with your soul is what you were born to do. The seat of the soul, one of my books, goes into that in a wonderful ways and universal human, the book that you're holding goes into it and more in other ways and I recommend them both. And I hope that you'll come in and leave a message for me on our website is named after the First Book Seat of the Soul, like what's your sit on SCA T of the SRU Well, I love to hear from you. And Greg airy, thank you so much.

Greg Voisen
It's been an honor having you on, and a blessing. And I want to say, no mistake to you. I see the energy which you're admitting and feel it. The to genuineness and authenticity of what's been written, and the years it took you to, I'm going to use the word concatenate, because there was a lot of concatenating of your thoughts, your understandings your wisdom and knowledge that went into this book, I could tell it right when I picked it up, and I felt it, and I felt it. And I think the most important thing is for our listeners, whether it's, they go to your website or they buy Seat of the Soul and start there, some of the many other books they have it doesn't matter what Gary is is saying and essence here is that it's within you, if you listen to your heart. i You can do this without reading this book, You don't have to read this book. It's been bestowed upon all of us as a universal right. It's a universal right for us all to access this. This is universal human, but we all have the ability to access what Gary's talking about so Gary thank you thank you again. Blessings to you much gratitude to you. And Linda for working on this and putting it together. And for all of my listeners go to seat of the soul, sta t o o FVTG So O UL. There you can learn more about Gary, you can learn more about what he's doing. Obviously we're gonna have a link to Amazon to purchase a copy of this book, and we'll also put links to the other books as well. So you can kind of look at the series, Gary, thanks again. Appreciate it, my friend, it's been way too long in between. But you know what, we just keep trucking on.

Gary Zukav
Thank you, Craig, it's, it's really been a joy to be on your, on your podcast and, and I send my love to everyone who's listening to us.

Greg Voisen
Thank you, Gary. So, Mr. Xu cough, what do you think,

Gary Zukav
Well, I think we started to go over some things that are important to me, and I hope that I share them in a way that they're helpful with others.

Greg Voisen
I think that's all you can expect. And if it inspires and or motivates people to want to learn more, no matter where they learn it, whether it's from you or some other spiritual leader that may want to go find out more information from Soviet, but my role in this is to, to the best of my ability, help authors and thought leaders like yourself. Explore the concepts of a book, expose a world to this book. I will tell you at this point, after 900 of these. I loved your energy, but the highest download podcast. It isn't Simon Sinek, it's Joe Dispenza. Now I can't quite figure out why Joe Dispenza his podcast. As more downloads in anybody's you know these are evergreen. They last forever. His podcast is over 100,000 downloads on my little show. Which means, and they can every day. I want Gary, here's what I want, I want you, not because of ego or anything, I'd love for you to displace Joe Dispenza with this so we can get 100,000 out.

Gary Zukav
Well, I would like to support you. I think he's doing wonderful work in the world. He is that the three of us are in some ways have our paths converging for a moment in this in this podcast and thank you for putting it together, Greg,

Greg Voisen
oh you're quite welcome Gary and I'll send you an email that you'll get. I tell all of my authors and this is not obligatory. My work today is all voluntary, um, there was a time a long time where authors would pay for ads on the show. I give all the money that gets donated to compassionate communications Foundation which is my foundation to help homeless people find permanent housing. And I literally have been raising money through authors who choose to give and again I want to repeat this, you don't have to do it but I can send you a link. If you choose to make a donation. We are dedicated to getting at least this year, about 20 souls out of the cold and into a warm place to live so that they don't have to experience that any longer, so I make the downpayment on their housing, to get them in the house. So that's what we do, and I'll send you a link if you guys choose to that's great. If not, we're going to promote this like crazy. We'd like your team to promote it simultaneously. So about two days prior to. I was looking back in our records, you have an assistant now with a different name than you had back in 2010, so I'll send it to you, and let them promote it however they're going to choose to promote it.

Gary Zukav
I'll send it on. Okay, well, and

Greg Voisen
my, my, my best to everybody there, and to Linda please give Linda my best. I didn't know she was going to join us today as well. I thought maybe she might. But any rate, you guys. Take care.

Gary Zukav
Thank you, Greg. It's great to see you again. You too,

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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My guest in this podcast is Sally Ornstein, co-author and wife of Robert Ornstein. Sally is on the show to promote Robert’s final book that she co-authored entitled God 4.0: On the Nature of Higher Consciousness and the Experience Called God,”  The book offers a fresh understanding of how the brain can produce a transcendent shift in consciousness that some have called “seeing God.”

In the interview, Sally and I discuss about nonverbal experience, normal consciousness and the experience of creativity and problem solving that will direct your life and that will enable you to understand much more than you than you currently do.

If you want to know more about Robert and Sally Ornstein and their books, please click here to be directed to their website.

You may also click here for a  free download offer of Ornstein’s final edition of his bestselling  book, The Psychology of Consciousness,when you purchase God 4.0 today, October 15. 

 

THE BOOK

 

What if “God” was not some external being but rather the experience of certain brain states in which the self is transcended?

Could practices of modern day religions be degenerated relics of the true spiritual practices of the original prophets?
Might it be possible for humans to move beyond faith, belief, doctrine and emotion to directly experience states of consciousness sometimes referred to as “God?”

Drawing on research from neuropsychology and religion, to evolutionary psychology, anthropology, archeology, and genetics, God 4.0 documents these “what ifs” as “what is.”

The authors begin by coalescing findings from the shamans of the Ice Age (God 1.0), to the first temples, priests and gods of the Neolithic era and Mesopotamia (God 2.0), to the Axial Age prophets and the three major monotheistic
religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam (God 3.0), showing how transcendence happens and has been sought since Paleolithic times

THE AUTHORS

Robert Ornstein
Considered one of the foremost experts on the brain, Robert Ornstein was an internationally renowned psychologist and author of more than 20 books on the nature of the human mind. He was perhaps best known for his pioneering research on the bilateral specialization of the brain, continually emphasizing the necessity of “conscious evolution” to meet the challenges of the 21st century. His books have sold over six million copies worldwide and have been
used in more than 20,000 university classes. Completed just before his death, God 4.0 was a collaboration with his wife Sally who edited and published it posthumously.

 

You may also refer to the transcripts below for the full transcription (not edited) of the interview.

Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen the host of Inside Personal Growth. And Sally as I do every time I come on, I thank my listeners who come from around the world to listen to the words of wisdom from our authors. And today joining me from Oakland, California is Sally Ornstein. And Sally co authored this book with her husband, Robert Ornstein. And this book is entitled god 4.0 on the nature of higher consciousness, and the experience called God. Well, an interesting title Sally. And I want to let our listeners know about your husband and you. Before we move on, Robert Ornstein, the award winning psychologist and pioneering brain researcher has authored more than 20 books on the nature of the human mind and brain specifically, as they involve the two hemispheres, the different modalities, functions and potentials. Completed just before his death, God 4.0 was a collaboration with Sally, who edited and published the book then finally published the book. Well, Sally, good day to you. And thank Good day. No, I know you had an interesting journey with Robert and you met 1981 at the conference in London, the psychology of consciousness and health. What really was Bob like, and why did you want to finish this? Kind of it says finished book, but I know you had a lot left to do after he passed away in December 2018.

Sally Ornstein
Yes, well, to answer your first question, he was brilliant, actually. But unlike a lot of academics, he was emotionally very mature. He had wonderful intuition and was very perceptive, he couldn't lay one over on me, gotcha. Take off too, immediately. So and he had the most delightful sense of humor. We had a good we had a good match, it was good. Luckily for me, by the time he died, he had understood the neurobiology that he talks about in God 4.0, and come to the key conclusions of the book. As you know, from his previous work, he was very, very good at devouring a lot of material from a lot of fields and really system, it's seeing how they connected to each other different fields. And in this book, he did the same. So it took a while for him to realize that or come to the conclusion that he states in the book that we all have this latent ability for transcendence that can be developed. And that would, meaning that we can all proceed beyond our normal consciousness. And in fact, we do so to some extent, everyday without noticing.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and he did it eloquently, both of you in this book, and I want to thank you for, you know, finishing it up, because it could have been a manuscript that that didn't get out there. But Sally, your husband, Bob, or Robert, wrote the book. And he said, this book is about what it means to go beyond the ordinary perception of reality, and understand why I think that's important. How, in your estimation, do we, as a species, as a human species, connect through our transcendence and make a connection to what he referred in the book as the other? Or in this case, God?

Sally Ornstein
How do we go about it, I think the first thing we have to do is to Well, two things really know what normal consciousness is, and then know who we are. Because without knowing that normal consciousness is really very, very limited and addresses survival, it's enabled us to survive very successfully. But it's no longer appropriate for the global problems that we have today. To address the global problems that we have today, we have to, in a sense, go outside of ourselves. Which religious teachers often addresses shun the world go beyond normal consciousness and try to get beyond ourselves to a more selfless, more intuitive, expanded perception of our connection to each other.

Greg Voisen
Yes. And you know, there's so much out there today, Sally around this. Now I know, as BM being a neuroscientist, it was really interesting. But, you know, look, you look at Michael Pollan's new book, and he writes about people micro dosing, LSD and various substances to try and go beyond the current consciousness and to make this connection, and we've tried to transcend our normal existence in search of these answers, he said, to our perennial questions about the meaning of life and death, because this is really what this is all about. This is why individuals will utilize other substances, pod, whatever it might be. How do we expand our consciousness in your, in his estimation, to better understand our longing to receive answers to those meaningful questions in life? The questions of really meaning the meaning of life?

Sally Ornstein
Well, there's a saying that if you sincerely seek truth, truth will find you. I think the I think the problem of of ingesting substances, or doing practices that you feel might get you somewhere is that you don't really know how to do that without guidance. I think what you have to realize, is that what I am for myself, I realized that I don't know what truth is. And so if I take something that tells me Well, okay, it's not the experiences different, I'm having a transcendental experience, I'm outside of myself on coyote or whatever, and, but I've already, I already have expectations of what that journey is like. But if you're looking for truth, one of the caveats is is to go, you have to try and get rid of your assumptions and your expectation and allow the perception to come to you. I think the best analogy I can think of is my own experience as a painter. When things go really well, I am not involved, the magic happens. And I don't know what I'm painting about, I don't know what I'm doing exactly. But after, when one comes back to normal consciousness, it teaches you you can understand something about what you've painted, that you didn't know, you were bothered by, or didn't have any insight into. So in that in a way that's analogous to what we're trying to develop. Does that make sense?

Greg Voisen
Yeah, because you know, the people have been experimenting with this and talking about what we're talking about for some time. Some of this, what I would call benign terms that are being used for it is getting into the flow. Yes, Steven Kotler talks. Yeah. And Steven Kotler has been on the show six times, and he has the flow Genome Project. But the but the issue there is, is when like you said, You got out of the current state and into a new state or into an altered state of consciousness, which the painting full came through you. You didn't, there was no time there was nothing you done, you look back, and you went, Wow, look what I created. I didn't create that. Exactly. beyond me. Yes,

Sally Ornstein
that's the point, you have to get your ego out of the way. So even if you realize that you have this intuition, in a sense, you have to ignore it, you really, really have to keep quiet about it. It doesn't like interference, emotional interference.

Greg Voisen
Right now, these two hemispheres of the brain and the neuroscience part of it that Robert spent so much time how do we open the extra dimension, usually dormant in consciousness? To better know God?

Sally Ornstein
I think the it begins by self knowledge. I mean, there's a story I don't know whether you know, that folk, folk hero called nurse or Dean who goes to the goes from his village to the city, and he makes the king and he comes back and he says, the king spoke to me. And the villagers who were What did he say? And he said, he said, the king said, Get out of my way. That's what we have to do allow the king to come in and get out of and get out of its way. And then the our actions or understandings are different. It's not something you have to think about you, it just acts through you. It's like if I come in I don't Yeah,

Greg Voisen
we're, we're out. We're talking about consciousness. Here we're talking about neuroscience, we're talking about how the synapses to the brain actually fires in the endorphins released and all the chemicals in the system. But with inside this small little package at the top of our head, is really the thing that transforms our consciousness to make these connections. And you mentioned that the public or Robert did the public discussion of spirituality is often dominated by the extremes. Those that think the whole thing's in illusion, and the old fashioned superstition, while the other side maintains that God is everywhere. So if God is everywhere, and we are God, how can individuals rationalize this concept?

Sally Ornstein
Well, the short answer is they can't. As Bob describes, in the book, this is an intuitive perceptive capacity that can be developed. But it's a nonverbal experience, that's the result of the cultivation of the deactivation of certain areas of the brain. Areas that keep us in time, space. And with a sense of self, the part of us the me first, normal consciousness is what prophets and spiritual teachers, they've consistently told us that we should shun that, in other words, get beyond that, we have to get to a selfless state. Right to be activated.

Greg Voisen
And, and that can be done through many different practices, contemplation, meditation, prayer walks in the wood, extreme sports, we find people finding ways to actually attain this new altered state of consciousness, as Robert talks about in the book, in many different ways. Yeah. And, you know, Robert commented on the evolution of our consciousness, because that's what we're talking about is the evolution of this consciousness if, if we're at a lower level of consciousness, to elevate it, to a higher level of consciousness, and any talked about in a section of the book, how shamans played a role by showing us how they entered this static state of consciousness, where spirits can either enter their bodies, I should say, and speak through them. If you would speak with us about that the shaman experiences and the growth of spirituality, and are experiencing god 4.0. Because, in reality, if you were to take Iosco or you were to go to a shaman and the shamanistic traditions, you would find that this is where this is being spoken, kind of coming through you. And I bet you when they come out of that state, they don't even realize what they said.

Sally Ornstein
Yes. Well, in the book, we describe the vision journeys of the shaman who these accessing, as you said, access it, meaning outside the cell. In a sense, they can be thought of as our original priests, and we talk of the vision journeys as ways in which dealers, they survived, really, I mean, 35,000 years ago, we're talking about six people per 40 square miles in in an ice age, I mean, it's incredible circumstances that we went that we survived, and we must have done this in a way in which other modes of consciousness were accessible, it's because it can't have been by trial and error. They weren't enough enough of us. So there must have been some intuition involved. And in fact, in the book we talk about a contemporary Sharma and I don't know whether you remember what we talked about. I think her name was Colin sundram. And she's was she got into natural Shon manic states when she heard certain drumming and eventually got trained with shamans in Mongolia and she also is part of a laboratory that that is investigating what happens in the brain and one of the trance states that she got into one of the tests that they gave her was to was to bowls of water was to come across to was to Intuit which bowl of water had the poison, and she could, so in a sense that that might in these intuitions, in a sense go by beyond what we normally experienced, but don't forget that, you know that this is a long for most of us this, we emphasize writing. And now in the digital age, you can see children's brains are wired up differently. I mean, our brains are wired up differently. And a lot of the space that now is dealing with Excel sheets and manuscripts. Trying to put things into words, takes up a lot of space. And what the book is suggesting is that we need to really allow for saluted support for activities that can, in a sense, provoke this other higher consciousness because it can be now valuable to us, since normal consciousness doesn't, in fact, serve us. And we can tell that by the mess we're in, frankly, politically, everybody's out for me first, and then as we get beyond that, there won't be the solutions we need to survive and maintain the planet.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I concur. And and I think we speak about a topic, when you look at the levels of consciousness is Ken Wilber talks about, or many different authors speak about, we do have smaller numbers of people that have evolved, but we are seeing more and more evolution in this area. And you know, you talk about the evolution of consciousness, along what Robert referred to, as a timeline from God 1.0, to God 4.0. And you reference in the book arrows in time, all kinds of errors, you go way back, and how our understanding of God involved. And he's stated that in, in it in the 1500 years ago, that we produced a world substantially different from the way it was at the time of the genesis of any of the three Mana lithics religions a monolithic religion? And what is our new spiritual literacy? in your estimation, what is this, you know, it was spoken about in the book, the new spiritual literacy.

Sally Ornstein
I think the new spiritual literacy is something that we have yet to develop what Bob did in the book was to describe how this state of consciousness is activated. neurobiologically and he got that information from, as you say, people who took drugs from, from brain damage, people with brain damage and, and such like, so we know how it works neurobiologically and we know that this activation is on a continuum. And that, at the far end, say the beginning of the continuum will be when there's an insight, a small insight on how to solve a problem, but at the end of and then you will go to the creative experience, as we were talking about and to, for example, Einstein and Rama, Newton, those exemplary people who valued intuition and who were remarkable in their own fields and beyond that, I think, with and this is important with a lot of discipline and practice. You have the prophets and spiritual teachers, and that doesn't that activation that what we distinguish as a higher consciousness in Arabic, it's insane and Camille that perfected man, doesn't come easy, but it is in our potential. And what we're seeing in God 4.0 is that if this latent faculty become known that if we start to know know about this faculty that it can be developed, and that we promote the idea of it, of its potential in the world, it will activate it you can't activate something you know nothing about so we're saying this is and that's one of the reasons why I was determined to finish the book because it's, it's so important to know that we have this extra step in our evolution that we need to make as Bob Bob said, since the 70s, I think you can't have social evolution without conscious evolution. And this is what he's talking about.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, agreed. And you know, the concept is almost a bit more awful in the sense that, you know, to for listeners to try and get their hands around it. So to bring it back in to something That you're asking people to become versus them doing, if there were things that you saw, because Bob spent his life studying the brain and the neurosciences and was very interested in this. And you have a lot of listeners out there that are probably saying, well, I understand what she's speaking about. But how do I individually take some type of steps toward this evolution of my own consciousness? What would you tell them? Because both you and and Bob, obviously are extremely high in your levels of consciousness. And it would be something that the listeners, I think, would want to know.

Sally Ornstein
Well, as we say, in the book, and we quote, a lot of the material from the works of the Sufi tradition. For us, the understanding that we've gathered through studying the works of Idris Shah, and who is the, the latest contemporary teacher of the Sufi tradition. That is where really, we've gotten our understanding. And that has always been, I expect, you know, from Bob's work in the past, from the psychology of consciousness onwards, something that has been of importance to him. But again, we're not, we're not authorities on that. And we're not saying this is the way you have to go, I mean, we will have to find their own direction. But that is the way through studying interest shots works for teaching stories that we mentioned in the book, and that his comments on the teaching stories show himself, we take a long extract in the afterword of the book, so that people can clearly see what is in it in, what the teaching stories are, and how they might help them. And I can talk about that more. But that is what Bob and I have used to develop this more comprehensive, this more perceptive capacity.

Greg Voisen
And perceptive capacity is a great way to reference it because, you know, individuals that are listening today, whether they're on a spiritual path or a personal growth path, or whatever path they're on, they're seeking, they're seeking something more, because they know there's something more and what your book does, is open up the the more to them, and how that consciousness can expand. And if you would speak with us about the difference, an independent line of research that confirms how our brains open to enhanced connections to the world, because this was Bob's work and how does this Transcranial direct current stimulation, which you referenced it in the book assist in making the two connections between the two hemispheres of the brain? And does this allow us to experience this out of body experience to make a connection with God?

Sally Ornstein
Um, well, Bob was quite interested in expert in brain stimulation studies, as you point out, he was also quite clear that studying people with brain injuries, while it can be revealing, you've got to be careful what you do. So I don't think and he also points out that they're often quite imprecise and not ready for practical application. I think that's what you're referring to that yes, it's very hard to get a real take on what happens with an experience of higher consciousness from applying an instrument because you're already affected by the actual invasion of the instrument or the the fracture going on around you. Again, I think what what what really he's talking about precisely his what goes on in the brain that he's known that he's recorded, like for example, the deactivation of the default mode network, which is a part of the brain that we all go to when we're doing nothing and it kind of as we say in English, it rabbits on it goes on and on and on about who am I What do you think of me? Oh, there's the roast burning. I've got to get the Children from school all those things when that is and that's very much the center of what he calls the executive function of the brain that that puts up our self, this self that we need to actually deactivate. It puts it in the center of it all. Because again, our normal consciousness class Imaginarium as he calls it in the book, is what Kant that's what makes each of us that's the world we live in. I mean, we all share normal consciousness, but our Imaginarium our experiences and memories are all different. So, when that is deactivated when the default mode and the Imaginarium is deactivated, that is the he describes it as the the borders dissolve and the and the self is diminished in favor of this more holistic approach this more or less, a more holistic comprehension. In the same way, he talks about the right parietal lobe, which has its function and forgive me, but I'm not the expert on this. And he does describe it so perfectly in the book. So I hope readers will take this from the book rather than me, but I'll do the best they can. The right parietal lobe puts us in in place, look at the location, space time, all the things all the aspects that keep us locked into the normal world and that also has to be deactivated. Right? In order for us to attain this higher consciousness. So you're looking for something that will do that. But again, because we're all individual, the there has to be some precision what works for somebody in like, for example, in the 13th century, Jalaluddin Rumi, the Sufi, mystic and poet used to had in Konya Whirling Dervishes right now he prescribed the wording of the dervishes because he was dealing with a community that was quite phlegmatic. You wouldn't put you wouldn't prescribe that with Western says with America today because we tend to be over emotional. So you have to find another way of quieting of not feeding that emotionality but going in another direction in order to develop this consciousness through a quieter means. And as I said, for us, for Bob and I the the choir to means is to is to familiarize ourselves with these teaching stories from the Sufi tradition collected for this time, and these circumstances by Indra Shah,

Greg Voisen
yes, idrissa. Well, I think Sally, then what you really have highlighted here is that we're all individuals, number one, and number two, the experience is a holistic one, that we don't need to alter our consciousness with drugs or other things to elevate this consciousness to this level, the key is to be able to not only move to the new level of consciousness, but to stay there and have it become part of our being. And if you were to leave, if you were to leave our listeners with the three important points regarding god 4.0, what would they be? And how can they elevate their consciousness to have a deeper connection? In this case, God 4.0 kind of connection. Personally, they're they're out there listening, they understand, they understand that this is available to them, they understand they want to take a holistic approach to it. You were talking about the various things that they could read? Is there anything in particular that you would recommend that they go to read resource reference? What might you tell them?

Sally Ornstein
Well, they could start with God 4.0

Greg Voisen
Well, they're going to read God 4.0 because they're gonna put it up there. And you have a huge agenda here in the book with all kinds of references that Robert made when he was writing the book, and I was just curious if there were and when you look at the references, you know, he talks with Rumi the way of the Sophie's the case of God the and it goes on and on and on. And I guess maybe just let them reference those particular elements of the book including the addendum. Yeah.

Sally Ornstein
Hi. They asked what is is the afterword is is key to what, which is written by Idris Shah, which describes the teaching story more succinctly that either Bob or I could, which is why we included it.

Greg Voisen
Well, it's the Idris Shah foundation dot orgy. So for my listeners, this is ID r i e s s h a h foundation dot o RG Idris Shah foundation is for further readings, it's listed in the book, but I wanted to give it to him. And we will put a link in our blog for that as well. Now going back now going back to this, what would you What would you want to leave our listeners with three important points?

Sally Ornstein
I think that it's about experience, it's about a nonverbal experience that will direct your life. And that will enable you to understand much more than you than you currently do. And that it is possible to develop and that the province of provoking it starts with knowing who we are, starts with understanding what normal consciousness is, and the experience of creativity, problem solving. So those intuitions that you get our part of that continuum that leads to this higher perception. But again, it's it's about experience. So it's very hard to is just

Greg Voisen
to know, I understand, you know, it's it's intuition, I wrote a book on intuition, so I understand it well. And I think that the things that we do to prepare ourselves to have greater levels of intuition or opening of our consciousness or understanding that it's available. As I mentioned, you know, 15 minutes ago, it's, you know, it's deep contemplation, it's meditation, it's walks in the woods, it's doing things that takes that part of the brain, which is constantly clicking, and keeping you in what I would call either the dead past or the imagined future, because you're thinking about things that happened yesterday, or things you have to do tomorrow. And if you can learn to stay in this state of now, as we've talked about, many famous authors write about, I think that is the starting point, to actually access this highest level of, of consciousness. And I don't know if you agree with that, but I would think that you probably would,

Sally Ornstein
I think being in the present, in the sense that the ordinary world is a is a bridge to that higher consciousness. So being in the present is certainly important.

Greg Voisen
Well, I think the Buddhists used to talk about the delusion and the Maya. And the reality is, is the rest of the world that is the Maya and the delusion. And to get out of that requires that we understand that we're in it. So the first element is awareness. And I think so many people don't actually even have that level of awareness. So first, a number one is awareness. And after the awareness is finding things that we can do to alter the state of consciousness to access a higher level of intuition, and then a connection with God. Agree

Sally Ornstein
being our higher consciousness. state of mind? Yes, I think that's so but it is, you know, it is quite subtle and one can't have it's not exactly like, as we're used to, you can't sort of pay your money and get it immediately. So it's a long road.

Greg Voisen
Oh, that that's for certain. I think people, shamans, spiritual, spiritual teachers, people that have been going down this path. It's all a unique experience at each one of them. And I think it's at the intersection frequently where it happens, we see it happen, as many people that have had near death experiences come the closest, but then are able to come back from that and actually give an account of those kinds of things. Those, those experiences actually do get people to shift and transform their consciousness most of the time, most of the time.

Sally Ornstein
So yes, but what we're what we need to work on is? How do we get this higher consciousness to inform our actions in the everyday world? Yeah, that agree that there has to be something that's developed and works in parallel. It's not about giving up something or it's about making making room for. And it informs our choices. I mean, intuitively, you know, for example, what not to do and what, what to do, as Bob would use to say, we have no idea sometimes whether, because we took a less it saved us from an accident if we take an A write, you know, it's sort of on that we have no idea a lot of the time that intuition that protective capacity is working, but it is working and we can develop it.

Greg Voisen
Most certainly, well, Sally, it's been a pleasure having you on inside personal growth. And for my listeners, we've been talking with Sally Ornstein, and the book is God 4.0 we'll put a link to Amazon. It's on the nature of higher consciousness and the experience called God. If you want to take a deeper dive into this, Robert has done a wonderful job of giving you kind of a roadmap here giving you history and talking about the neuroscience of it as well, along with the spirituality of it. And I think the book is extremely well done, and gives the reader an opportunity to take a dive and understand more. And Sally, thanks for you, sticking in there after Roberts death and actually completing the book and getting it published, bringing it out to the public. I really appreciate that.

Sally Ornstein
Thank you for having me, and I'm grateful for this opportunity to talk about it. Thank you.

Greg Voisen
Thank you. Bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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