[00:00.5]
Welcome to Inside Personal Growth podcast. Deep dive with us as we unlock the secrets to personal development, empowering you to thrive. Here, growth isn't just a goal, it's a journey. Tune in, transform, and take your life to the next level by listening to just one of our podcasts.

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Well, welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voice and the host of Inside personal growth. And Dr. Warren Farrell is joining us from the Bay Area, Marin area. Good, day to you, Warren. How you doing? I'm doing very well. And yourself?

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I'm doing great. And you used to live here in Leucadia, which is right next to Encinitas, which is kind of all one city now. And, he and I didn't even know that until we talked. The last time Warren was on Inside Personal Growth was October of 2007 and, and he has written many books.

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One is called the Boy Crisis. We're going to be talking about Role Mate to Soulmate, the Myth, Male Power, why Men Are the Way They Are, why Men Earn More, and the list goes on.

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Because how many books have you written now? I'm working on my 10th or 11th now. Okay. So, you know, go to his website. You can get there by going to Warren Farrell. That's W A R R E N F A R R E L L dot com.

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There you can learn more about his books. He's got a great, couples, communication section. He's got posts that he's done all over, including videos. He also has a YouTube channel that you can check him out on.

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So I'm going to encourage all my listeners to do that because that is a great place for them to learn about you. So this book we're going to talk about today, Rolemate to Soulmate. I spent a lifetime researching, the dynamics between men and women, helping us understand how communication, empathy, and deeper awareness can transform relationships from roles we play into soulful connections we crave.

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His journey began in the 60s when he wrote the Liberated man was a pioneering book from the feminist perspective. Over time, he noticed how men's voices were often misunderstood, leading to his bestsellers, as I just mentioned, why Men Are the Way They Are and the Myth of the Male Power, which is the one I did the podcast on in 2007.

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The books, the New York Post, Library Journal hailed it as a groundbreaking and essential reading. His extension research expands works like Women Can't Hear, what Men don't say, Father and Child Reunion, and why Men Earn More.

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He's been featured on Oprah Larry King Live, 2020, the Today show, and major outlets, the New York, Times, Wall Street Journal. So in the role Mate to soulmate, he brings all this wisdom together, offering seven powerful principles for creating lasting love built on mut vulnerability and soul level understanding.

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Again, go to his, website. You'll learn more about him there. So look, you know, you have such a history of writing these books and being kind of a spokesperson for media about what's going on and what inspired you to kind of take the role mate to soulmate.

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Was there a particular realization or personal or professional journey that kind of led you to explore how couples could evolve from role based love to a deeper soul connection, which to me is a spiritual connection. Yes, it certainly includes being an spiritual connection, for sure.

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I think that probably one of the big inspirations was, first of all, I had been forming men's groups around the country for quite a while. And then I wrote a book called why. When I wrote a book called why Men Are the Way They Are, I was teaching a course called why Men are the Way They Are around the country.

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And one of those places that I was teaching at was a place called Esalen, which is here in California, in Big Sur. And, a few weeks after the end of a course, I get this letter. And the person said that in your course on why men are the Way they are, you had five segments to it.

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And one of those segments was on couples communication. And that segment on couples communication was so powerful for me, I am now using it in my family business. And so then I looked at the. This was in the day of letters for people that are young.

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A letter is something you send through a mail that people open up and get. So, I looked at the bottom of the letter and it was, signed by the CEO of Walmart. And so I thought, well, if the CEO of Walmart finds this section of the course so effective, he's chosen to use this in his, family business.

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The ideas that I had to expand this, were probably worth pursuing. And the ideas that I had to expand this was realizing that people, that the most popular form of hearing somebody else speak at that point in history was of active listening.

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But that active listening had been found to never be used without a therapist present. And I wondered why that was the case. And I started seeing. I discovered why it was the case.

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Partially because no one can handle personal criticism without becoming defensive. And so what happens with active listening is that you're expected to Handle personal criticism and then repeat the criticism that you've heard.

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And what no one realizes that no one knows how to handle personal criticism to begin with. And that something had to be done to prepare people to handle personal criticism. That was not biologically natural. And so that was sort of the beginning of.

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All right, can I figure out a way to help people make an evolutionary shift from the biologically natural thing to do, which is when you heard personal criticism, historically and biologically, it was a potential enemy.

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So what was a, natural response in order to survive is to become defensive or even kill the enemy before the enemy killed you. And so that's our heritage. And that was. So that our heritage is to respond defensively in order to survive.

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And so responding defensively was functional for survival. It was just terrible for love. I had to figure out something else. You know, that's really true what you say. I mean, if that was how we were, conditioned and brought up and that was the defense, it was horrible for love because it pushes people away from you.

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So, you know, one of the things we've seen and, you know, bringing this to current times is, you know, you and I are in a boomer generation, and then there's all these generations behind us. And, you know, we've talked about this on shows before, but in 2023, the US Surgeon General declared loneliness a public health epidemic.

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Yet we live in the most connected era, connected digitally in human history. You know, people can get an app and they can swipe through hundreds of potential partners, in an evening. But the studies show young adults today report feeling lonelier than any generation before them.

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Lonelier than any generation before them. The question isn't whether we can find people. It's whether we can truly be with them. What comment would you make about our current times as it relates to role mate, to soulmate?

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Because I think people go through relationships, and I'm not certain what the statistics are, but almost kind of like changing underwear, right? It's like, okay, swipe next. We don't want to give this the time. This person doesn't meet whatever my requirements are that I was looking for.

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So I'm just going to move on. And I think that's a paradox. Yes, absolutely. And, it's very challenging because our expectations. Here's a question I ask in my role mate at soulmate workshops is how many of you feel that you communicate better than your grandparents and maybe even parents?

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And virtually everybody in the workshop raises their hand. And so I say, well, but in which Generation, is the divorce rate higher? Our grandparents generation or ours? And, it's ours. And so what's that about?

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And what that's about is in our grandparents and our great grandparents, when they got married, it was for better or for worse. And if there was domestic violence, you didn't report it. If there was a, lack of understanding, you just dealt with it.

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You got married for better or for worse. Why was that? Because the job of marriage was for survival. And having procreation, having new children, that would then be focused on survival. And so if your partner, didn't understand you, you got together and you're a woman, you got together with your woman friends.

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If you were a man, you went out and drank, or you, maybe contributed to the church where somebody appreciated you as opposed to at. And so you either made a positive or negative contribution, like drinking or doing something for the community, that would make you feel good about yourself, but you didn't depend on your partner for that.

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But as we've gotten to be able to be, in the developed nations, in the middle and upper middle classes, survival is not such a controlling issue. And so our relationships have become more conditional.

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Everybody makes a big mistake. They talk about, oh, I want unconventional, unconditional love. No, you don't. You don't want unconditional love if your partner is beating you, and, hitting you physically or doesn't understand you, has totally different goals, is having lots of affairs.

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You don't want to say, I want unconditional love no matter what it is. Our love has become more and more conditional because we've become more and more, have had higher expectations about what we want from our partner.

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And the problem is that, that our higher expectations have, outpaced our actual knowledge as to how to have our partner feel loved by us and how to have us feel loved by our partner in a way that keeps, up with those expectations.

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And so that's what I tried to. So I started to ask, when I started experimenting to going beyond, the Walmart's letter and saying, I want to make a full course out of this. Some 31 years ago, I started to say, okay, is there a way to overcome this biologically natural propensity, to be defensive in response to criticism?

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Well, you know, you opened the book, this, Role Mate to Soulmate book, about how falling in love is biologically natural? Okay, yes, we've got all the chemical releases, we're in our high. That's, the part of the relationship where there's a lot of passion and then over time things change.

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But you say sustaining love is biologically unnatural. So could you share with our, listeners what you mean by that? And, and I'll put an and onto that. How would you advise keeping that falling in love state or whatever state it might be, versus losing that, which I think in almost every relationship that happens.

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Yes, almost every relationship becomes more complacent. People, start hearing criticisms. Well, actually often start hearing suggestions for improvement by their partner. Oh, sweetie, you know, you left the dishes in the sink again.

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Could you. Do you mind, you know, putting them in the dishwasher, rather than leaving them in the sink? And then the person, hearing that thinks, you know, wait a minute. You put. You left them in the sink a week ago. I didn't tell you. You didn't do it. So the person coming up asking about the dishes, she or he perceives themselves as making a suggestion to improve the relationship.

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The person hearing that suggestion to improve the relationship almost always experiences it as criticism. If it's any request for a change in attitude or behavior, it's perceived as criticism. Even though the person making that suggestion, intended it to be something that she or he thought would improve the relationship.

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And so that's sort of the way that that passion tends to get unraveled. You come into your home the day you've moved into with each other, and maybe it's shortly after you've fallen, in love, and you have all this passion and expectation of really being, your partner's going to meet you at the door, there's going to be really passionate kissing and so on.

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And a year later, you wish that your partner's car was not in the garage so that they weren't home. So you'd have a little bit of alone time to get to yourself before you got the, you know, did you pick up something? Did you pick up that sweet potato? Oh, the wrong type of sweet potato.

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You know, you should have done a lot. Yeah, well, you and I have been. We've, I think people that have been married for some time, they, they understand. The king is to understand this and to learn about what can be done. And you speak about the four, depleters of love.

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Now, you just mentioned some criticism complaints, controlling complacency. Which of these do you see as the most common or most destructive in a modern relationship? I would guess, you know, I'll guess what Mine are.

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But why don't you let the listeners know which one or several are the ones that do the most damage? The most damage by far in almost every relationship is the inability to handle personal criticism without becoming defensive.

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And so the. It's, so, people, your partner walks around on eggshells trying to think about when is the right time. I'm upset about this. What's the right time to say something, what's the right mood, the right atmospher and so on.

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And then she or he says something, and then we respond defensively. And what we were already walking on eggshells to mention, proves once again to only make things worse because the partner responds defensively, and then you respond defensively to that.

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And so the escalation that made you walk on eggshells, the fear of escalation that made you walk on eggshells, just proves itself out once again. And so you end up talking, if you're a woman, to your woman friends about it. And if you're a man, as I men before, you end up doing something like drinking or getting out of the home or coming home late or focusing on your work or finding out where you do get the rewards in life, rather than, sort of focusing on doing that with your partner.

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And so that was what led me to creating, to asking the huge question, was there a way that I could have people actually experience criticism without becoming defensive?

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And then I went a step further and said, what I'd like to do is not only prepare people to handle criticism without becoming defensive, but actually to prepare them to be able to, as the criticism is happening, to associate it with an opportunity to be more deeply loved.

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So they're actually looking at, they're experiencing the criticism as an opportunity for deeper love rather than a reaction that will make the relationship worse. And how, Warren, do they build that mindset?

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It's one thing to say, well, it's criticism without hurting your feelings, but I think, it was Don Miguel Juarez that said, don't take anything personally. Well, when you're in a relationship, even if it's at work, you take things personally.

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Absolutely. You certainly take them more personally when it's in your personal marriage or partnership or whatever it is relationship. So this goes across the board. So how does that mind shift that you're talking about occur?

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And how can people better get in that, that area of understanding? Yes, the first thing that I do in the Role Mate to Soulmate book is to teach people how to appreciate each other, at, multiple levels of specificity.

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And so that fills the reservoir of love that makes it worthwhile to do. If you feel really loved and appreciated, then it's worthwhile to do the hard work of knowing how to handle personal criticism without becoming defensive. So I'll get into the specifics of that in, a second.

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But the first thing is, the discipline and the art of appreciating each other. Well, so, for example, let's say I'm at dinner, with some company, and my wife has done. Let's say my wife has done most of the cooking.

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So if I say something like, Or I'm at a friend's home, and I say, you're really a good cook, thank you. She feels appreciated, or he feels appreciated by that statement. But if I say, I love the way you cook that chicken, with the skin being so crisp on the chicken, and then I say, how did you manage to cook the chicken with the skin so crisp, but yet the chicken is so moist?

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I am noticing. And so now the person sees that I'm really zeroing in on what they did well with that chicken, and she's not just. Or he's not just feeling like a compliment of, you're a good cook, but they really are seeing what I am doing to make a good cook.

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And then I love the, spices that are on it. That's a nice general statement. And it's a bit more specific than just saying a good cook, but be more specific. Are those spices like parsley, or is that sage that I detected?

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Or, rosemary and mother Simon and Garfunkel spice? What is that about? And now this person that's getting the compliment about being a good cook is really feeling like I was really tuning into and appreciating everything that they're doing.

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And so that's an example. And so what I train people to do in both the Role Mate to Soulmate book and workshop is to, actually learn how to do appreciations with up to be between five and seven levels of specificity.

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So once your partner feels appreciated at that type of level of specificity, the other issue is how often do you do that? And so I have everybody set aside one evening a week. Not the whole evening, just about 15 minutes, usually at dinner.

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Like, my wife Liz and I. My wife does do it on Wednesday evening, usually, unless we forget. And so we just share two or three appreciations, associations with each other. And so having the discipline of doing that frequently rather than just sort of knowing it theoretically, but never doing it, is very important as well.

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What you speak about, Warren, is this concept of taking things for granted. Right. So you're actually accentuating something that for most of people's lives, they take it for granted.

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Oh, well, she cooked dinner again. Oh, she cooked it again and again and again. And all you're doing is waiting for the dinner versus saying, hey, honey, you did a really good job. This tastes great. It's, you know, having a discussion around it versus just waiting for it to occur.

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Absolutely. That brings me to something around, we find happening today that is really quite, I'm going to say, it's strange.

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So something interesting is happening in our world today, in relationships today, we're extending compassion outward to strangers on social media, to global causes, to our work colleagues.

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But then we're running empty when we get home. Okay? So it's as if we're giving our best emotional selves to everyone except the person lying next to us at night in bed. So what kind of prescription would you say for that?

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Because this whole compassion fatigue thing is a real fatigue thing. Yes, we give and receive compassion where we feel we're most likely to, be rewarded for it.

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I was mentioning before about, the woman might go out and more typically she'll talk to her women friends about all the challenges she has with her husband and gets that out of her system. And she gives the compassion to the children and she gives the compassion maybe to some, volunteer cause or other type of cause, or she's working full time and gets her, good feedback from there.

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The man gives it to the community, to a cause, to his workplace also. Or he just feels hopeless and gets drunk. And so the, And so that's the And so we, we give compassion where we feel we are going to receive rewards, appreciation and compassion.

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And that's why it's so important for us to know how to have a process of doing that with our partner who is the one from whom we most want appreciation, love and compassion. So that's what the core of the Role Mate to Soulmate book and the coursework is, what I, I call a caring and sharing practice.

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And the theme behind that is no one handles personal criticism effectively without becoming defensive, unless you prepare to do so first. So I'll give you an example of that.

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I have everybody in the workshop, and I ask people who are reading the book to do this at home with each other, to sit back to back. And in the workshop, I have them, everybody has a piece of paper that looks exactly like this piece of paper that their partner and everybody else in the workshop has.

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And on that piece of paper they write the answer to this question. If your partner were about to be drowned or killed in a car accident, or something like that was about to be killed, and you knew with 100% certainty you could save your partner's life, but, you've just intuited that you'd have about a 50% chance of losing your own life in the process.

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And there were no children involved in the equation. Would you take that 50% chance risk of losing your own life in order to save your partner's Life with a 100% guarantee that your partner's life would be saved?

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And so then I asked people to write on the piece of paper the word die. And underneath the word die, they write either yes, no, are uncertain. That is, they're, uncertain whether they would, be willing to take a 50% chance risk of losing their own life for a 100% guarantee of saving their partner's life.

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They would definitely do it, or no, they wouldn't. And again, children are eliminated from the equation. Then I asked them if they would do, that if they wouldn't be willing to die, would they be willing to risk an arm or a leg? And, some people say, well, which arm, which leg?

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And I say one of your arms or legs. And so everybody writes that down. And I promise them that their partner will never see the answer to their question. And so then I have all the guys throw, take, this piece, of paper, wrap it into an extremely tight ball so every piece of paper looks like every other piece of paper.

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They, all throw that. The men throw their ball in one corner. The women throw their ball in another corner. And then they pick, up the pieces of paper. All the men pick up the male pieces of paper. The females. The females, even if there's gay female couples or whatever, they're.

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They just pick up the. One of their. Of their sex, and then they read the answers. And about 90 to 95% of the men say they'd be willing to die, to risk at a 50% level, dying in order to save their partner's life.

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About 80 to 83% of the women say the same thing. And the ones that don't feel I would be willing to die, another percentage added on are willing to give up an arm or a leg. And so then that translates into the first of six mindsets that I have people do before they handle their partner's criticism.

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So they're sitting next to their partner, partner, and their first mindset is, well, if I'm willing to die for you, I guess I can listen to you. Yeah. Instead of, you know, that certainly puts a totally different way.

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That will definitely shift your mindset, your real mindset. Yeah. So I like that exercise. I think that's really a, very valuable. I appreciate you explaining it. I think that it's good. And I think people ought to take your course.

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And for my listeners, go to his website and check it out, see what, he's got going on in the way of courses. But obviously I want you to go get a copy of the book. So in the link below, take a look at the link to Amazon we have for the book.

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Now, Warren, you mentioned this. Success, love, conflict. It's a skill that makes us successful often at work and other places and often undermine the intimacy at home.

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Because many driven people, very successful people, they find very little time for that. What are some ways couples can recognize and balance that tension? When you're at work, first of all, is to understand what that's about.

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About when you're at work. Let's say you're a lawyer, and you're hearing the opposing attorney talk in court. And your job as a lawyer is to figure out every mistake, that opposing attorney is making.

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And if you can't find any mistakes, maybe to distort something she or he said and then argue with the distorted version of it. And if you do that, well, you've supplied a good, you've been a good attorney. Attorney for your client, and your client continues to hire you.

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If you go ahead and say, gee, I heard the opposing attorney say this, and you repeat everything that the opposing attorney says that you really heard and made sure and say to the opposing attorney, is that accurate?

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Did I distort anything? Did I miss anything? Is there anything else you'd like to add? Because it's very important that my client understands you. You've done a really great job understanding the opposing attorney, but you're fired with your cl. Same thing if you're a CEO and somebody. Let's say you're at Boeing, and you're soliciting for a new door, for the new Boeing aircraft plane, to make sure it doesn't fall out like the old door did, and you get 20 sales representatives, and they're all saying to you, my door is the best.

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Your job while that person is talking is to not listen, but to self listen, listen to listen to. As they're talking, you say, is this, what's the reputation of this salesperson? Will this, suggestion, be, possible in my Japanese manufacturers, will they be able to adapt to this?

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Well, I need a new, factory. What will that cost? So you're self listening while the other person is talking. As a CEO or as the head of the sale, department that's in charge of that product, you're doing a good job, you're successful at work.

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But when you come home and your wife or husband says, gee, I had this problem at work today, and you're sort of like, now you're in solution mode. And just like you were at work, at work, that solution mode was really a great idea.

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The higher up I find that a person is at work, the more likely they are while their partner is talking or children are talking is to move into solution mode. Sweetie, you can do this. The problem is huge.

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And that problem is that the best solution to your wife, husband's or children's problems or to your parents problems is three things. Number one is to just listen to that. Number two is to listen more.

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And number three is to listen even more. More, more, more. Listening. Yes. Just listen, listen and listen. Well, let me ask you this, Warren. I see. Every generation in society has been rewarded in some way.

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And I want to sit with this because this is a provocation. The personality traits most rewarded by our economy are independence, competitiveness, effectiveness, and emotional control.

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And they're exactly the traits that sabotage intimate relationships. So we're training an entire generation to excel at everything except vulnerability. And then they wonder why love feels so hard.

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Yes. Okay, so that conditioning is having a tremendous impact on this love relationship. Can you, can you comment on it? Because it's like, hey, there's a world over here work that I get rewarded for being a certain way.

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And if I'm that way, I earn more money, I get more prestige, I get, the atta boys on the back that whatever it is that they need, whether they own their own business or they work for someone else, yet when they come back home at night, completely different situation.

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Absolutely. And the reason for that is that historically speaking, women, married men, who were able to be protectors and providers and they watched for all the characteristics that it took to Be successful at work, because their job was to make sure, that their families survived.

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In order for their families to survive. You watched out for a man who was successful, so he learned these skill sets at work. And you didn't really work. You may have felt no intimacy, no real compassion, no love with each other.

[34:11.3]
Although, as a woman who you saw your husband, supporting the family and being successful doing it and getting a new promotion, you were just happy that you, the family, was able to survive and be supported, and be supported well, and you could move into a new neighborhood with a new school, better school system, and your children could have opportunities that you never had.

[34:33.2]
That was the job of a man. But what's changed is now in the last 50, 60 years, women have been able to support themselves to a greater degree. So the degree to which a woman can support herself is the degree to which she's less dependent on a man to do that supporting for her.

[34:56.2]
But there's a challenge here. She has, now an interest in him being emotionally intelligent and having things like listening skills. But most women are still not open to marrying a man who is going to earn less than she will.

[35:13.1]
Not only is earning less at the moment, but will be earning less in the future. And so women are caught, and men are caught between a rock and a hard place. In the old days, she married a man who was successful at work, so he didn't have to have those lists, listening skills at home, because survival was all that mattered.

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Now that she can take part in survival, she wants more than that. But she's still selecting for men and unsatisfied with men who, are earning less and have, instead of being a provider protector, they're a nurturer connector. She's not looking for the nurturer connector men.

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She is maybe to date, but not to marry. If those nurturer connector men don't earn, are not anticipated to earn as much or more. So she's upped the ante. But not being willing to marry somebody who is more nurturer connector than provider protector, that is.

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I totally understand what you're saying, and I think, that still probably holds true in society today. It's been a holdover. Now look, you say playfulness seems to be the key ingredient to lasting love.

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And I think the key is, you know, what does playfulness mean? But you even say couples who play together stay together. Why is play so important for these relationships? And what is it that the two male and female come together?

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Who have this playfulness, ability and attitude. Actually. Why does it survive more the relationship? Whether the couple is straight or gay, it makes no difference. You're feeling a little bit low energy, and you turn on your, high energy music.

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And then all of a sudden, within seconds you can feel like, oh, and then you start dancing. You start feeling the high energy of that music. And then you look at each other and, okay, you start moving to that music and you're starting to dance together. So you're playing together, you're maybe dancing.

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At home especially, you can do things that you may not feel comfortable doing. In a ballroom, you can play, you can take risks, you can kiss each other more passionately, touch each other in places you wouldn't do in a ballroom in a public place.

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And so all of those things are, an example of just playing with each other. A lot of playing with each other takes some learning about what is playing. A lot of playing with each other might involve teasing or just, like leaving, an appreciation on a car that's, let's say, excuse me, you drove down.

[38:07.2]
I teach. I mentioned you at Esalen and Big Sur. And Big Sur has a very windy, road, Highway 1, to get to it. And so people will often come to the workshop and, one person will have driven and the other person will have been telling the driver, be careful here, be careful there.

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Don't go too fast. Go watch out for the curve. And so I teach them to do things like leave, a ticket on their partner's car. So the partner goes to the car and they see what they think is a ticket. And they get filled with anxiety that they've gotten a ticket and wonder what they've done wrong.

[38:42.7]
And they pick up the ticket and the ticket says, thank you for driving me to Esalen while I drove you crazy. That's how I like it. That's a great little way to just be playful. Just be playful, tease and then learn where the teasing teasing is.

[39:01.8]
I talk about teasing a lot in the Role Mate to Soulmate book, because teasing is an art you really want to perfect and play with. But in order to perfect it and play with it, you have to know what is playful for your partner and what is hurtful for your partner.

[39:20.6]
And different people have different levels of that. And so that's part of what you learn about your partner is what is playful and what could be hurtful. And you know, is that one person you left the ticket on the car.

[39:36.1]
And the anxiety was so great because she had just gotten a ticket previously and that created too much anxiety. And so, then that might be a problem. So you have to. Part of caring and sharing, time that I was mentioning before is learning what type of teasing is fun and playful and what type of teasing is, hurtful and harmful.

[39:58.0]
Well, look, this book is a great book for my listeners to learn how to become soulmates. And if someone today listening feels the relationship has grown distant, which that's probably a lot of people listening, maybe more of a role model mate than that of a soulmate, what's the first small step, that they can take toward a reconnection?

[40:24.6]
You know, you're the thought leader in this area, so I'm going to let you run with that and help, some of these listeners out who right now are going, okay, I'm feeling that way. And Dr.

[40:41.7]
Phil Farrell, I'd like you to give me some sound advice on how I can shift. Read the portion of the Role Mate to Soulmate book about how to give specific appreciations. Okay. Second, fake it. If you get into an argument, fake it until you make it.

[40:59.1]
By fake it till you make it. Here's what I mean. Let's say you get into an argument and you know, your wife or your husband and, likes a certain type of, let's say usually it's the wife more that will like a certain type of flower.

[41:16.6]
So you go out and find that flower, and as you are finding the flowers to bring back to your wife, you are thinking to yourself, she's going to respond very positively, especially since, I got a flower that she really likes and she'll appreciate that.

[41:35.2]
And so, you're already beginning to feel that her response will be softer than it was right after your fight. Or I'm going to make a dessert that, my partner really likes. Or I'm just going to, right after a fight, go over and maybe rub my partner on the shoulders and just sort of like, you know, just give a warm hug.

[42:00.6]
So you figure out something that will not only indicate to your partner that there's love here, but also you'll begin to start feeling your own softness toward your partner in the process of contemplating your partner's reaction to your reaching out to them in a positive way.

[42:22.5]
That's great advice. And I think, everything you've said along the way and all the advice you've given throughout this podcast has been, Very spot on. And again, click the link below to get a copy of the book. Go to Warren's website.

[42:39.1]
So, to wrap our interview up, I want to ask you this one last question, Dr. Harrell. If you look back over your journey from early research, to this book, and we can go back over all the books that you've written, because there is a correlation in them.

[42:55.5]
There usually is, and you can find it. What do you hope readers and couples will ultimately take away from role mate to soulmate? What do you. Would you like people today to, like, say, okay, Dr. Farrell, I get it. I understand it.

[43:10.9]
I can apply this in my life. I think all my life, I've been like. When I was on the board of the National Organization for Women in New York City, they were ready to kick men out of the organization, and they settled their dispute by asking me to form some men's groups, while the women were meeting in women's groups at their monthly meetings, and I started to do that.

[43:35.8]
And after being sort of this, this was a group. The men that attended now meetings were all male feminists. And, I was doing my doctoral dissertation on feminism. And so I would give lectures to the men.

[43:51.3]
And then one day I decided to stop lecturing and start listening. And as I started listening to the men talk, you know, their desire to be an elementary school teacher. But then, they had their first child, and he had to give up being an elementary school teacher because he wasn't earning enough money now that he had children, and his wife wanted to be focused on the children for a few years.

[44:14.2]
So he had to, quit being an elementary school teacher, which he loved, and then become a principal of a school, then a superintendent of schools, but he hated admission, administrative work. And I began to see how many men gave up their passion when a child was born in order to do something, that led to having more income, but that they loved less.

[44:41.1]
And then I began to see how, we in the feminist movement were saying, oh, look at men. They have male privilege and male power because they're the superintendents of schools or the principal. But as I started seeing men in my men's groups, become things like the superintendent of schools, or give up their aspirations to be a musician, writer, actor, whatever, once the children came, because those things that were fulfilling earned less money, I began to start having, a compassion for men, as well as for women.

[45:13.1]
And that led me to start forming these groups where men and women not, only Got together in men's and women's groups, but those men and women's groups met, alternately with each other so that they could actually hear each other. And then I started to do things like men's beauty contests to teach every man, how that every woman, was in a beauty contest every day of her life.

[45:35.9]
And then I started asking the women to enroll rehearsal dates, to ask out the men who had won the beauty contest and compete for them. And the things that they learned by walking a mile in the other person's shoes, were so powerful that that started me, really wanting to, create a system for, everybody to be able to love each other more.

[45:59.3]
Well, I appreciate all the years of your work and your aspirations to bridge the divide. Thank you. You know, and I think that that's the most important thing. If, someone walks away from this podcast inter interview saying, I received some great tips on how to bridge the divide, that I don't need to be, as distant and it doesn't need to be this way.

[46:26.0]
I can shift my mindset about how I do this. I can enact these things, as you mentioned, being able to take criticisms. Right, and learn from them. Right.

[46:41.9]
And then change how we do things, change our patterns, move forward in a relationship. And I think one of the things is, your partner who wrote, the Boy Crisis, I think.

[46:59.9]
And we learn we're talking about John Gray. I remember this statement, and I use this so much. Would you rather be right or would you rather be in love? You know, and I think that goes right along with that. I thought that was a pretty famous statement of his, but I've used it probably, I don't know, 5,000 times with people.

[47:22.9]
Would you rather be right or would you rather be in love? And I'm glad that you're here to talk about love because that's what we need more of in the world. Not only just between, between, our partners, but also outwardly to the world, love and compassion.

[47:38.5]
So thank you for that. We need this during this time of divisiveness that's happening, and we need to understand the other side better and we need to find ways and resolutions, to the conflict. And I, think your role Mate to Soulmate is a book that can help us do that personally, but also can help us do that professionally.

[48:01.9]
Thank you very much. And with the holidays coming up, what you just said is so important. There's almost in every family, there's somebody in the family that has very different political views than somebody else in the family. And the last portion of the book is called Civil War to Civil Dialogue.

[48:17.6]
And it's how to introduce yourself to somebody in the family, that has very different political views in a way that allows them to be appreciated for those different political views, by you, even if you don't agree with any of their views.

[48:36.3]
And so you do not have the different political views interfere with your potential for loving each other. Well, thank you so much. Namaste to you, doctor. Namaste to you.

[48:52.5]
Thank you for being on Inside Personal Growth, Ashley, after, what did we say, 2007? We're 20, 25. It's been way too long. I'm going to invite you back again. I appreciate you. Thanks so much for being on the show.

[49:08.1]
It's been a real pleasure. Your questions are so thoughtful. It's so wonderful to, have a podcaster who's actually carefully read the book, thought about it, and then gone beyond that. And it's really a pleasure to be with you, Greg. It's always good to let our listeners know.

[49:23.3]
Book that can actually transform their lives for the better. So again, hit the link below. Go to his website. We have the link below as well, if you're watching on YouTube. And if you're listening, it's just warrenfarrell.com very easy.

[49:39.9]
So, thanks, Warren. Thank you. I'm sorry about that website. I couldn't remember anything more complicated than warrenfarrell.com works at work. Thank you for listening to this podcast on Inside Personal Growth. We appreciate your support.

[49:55.2]
And for more information about new podcasts, Please go to InsidePersonalGrowth.com or any of your favorite channels to listen to our podcast. Thanks again and have a wonderful day.