Greg Voisen
Welcome back to Inside Personal Growth. This is Greg Voisen, the host of Inside Personal Growth. And joining me from Calabasas, California, is Jacob Morgan. And Jacob has a new book out called The Future Leader, which is a Wiley book good day to you Jacob, how you doing?

Jacob Morgan
I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.

Greg Voisen
Good. It's good to have you on our show Inside Personal Growth. And to spend some time with our listeners, Jacob as I always do, I literally thank the listeners because without them, there would be no show. And the reality is we keep getting more and more listeners every week. And we really appreciate that. And we appreciate all you who are constant listeners make comments on our blog and back and forth to us. So thank you. I'm going to let our listeners know a tad bit about you Jacob. Jacob Morgan is a trained futurist and one of the world's leading authorities on leadership, the future of work, employee experience and leadership, he speaks in front of 10s of 1000s of people, maybe not with COVID. And his content is seen over millions of times a year. She's a bestselling author of four books. The future leader, which is the one we're going to be talking about the employee experience advantage, and the future of work, and the collaborative organization McGraw Hill 2012. He speaks at over 50 conferences a year, Ted Academy, which is one of the largest Ted events in the world, and additionally provides advisory thought leadership services to various organizations around the world. He also has a platform called the future of work University comm which we'll put a link to the future of work, the future of work University comm where you can learn more, you can also learn more about Jacob at the future organization comm which we will have a link to that as well. Well, thanks for being on the show Jacob and taking some time to share your wisdom and knowledge about what during these challenging times that we've been having with COVID work, finding employees retaining employees, just trying to find the right people. You're the guy that knows what it's going to take in the world of leadership to do that. And you cite in the introduction to your book, that there are about 25 million leaders, managers and supervisors in the US, which equates to one in six. And you state that bluntly speaking, leaders are not good. That is that it's about leadership, and the old school that needs to be transformed. So leaders bring more value to the positions. How do you recommend that leaders who are listening to this today would bring that quote more value to the workplace so that they can be better leaders?

Jacob Morgan
Oh, man, that's starting up the easy questions I see. there so part of it is why actually wrote the book. So identify that there are a set of four mindsets and five skills the leaders need to practice. And these include everything from being able to balance humanity and technology to emotional intelligence to thinking like a futurist, to being able to coach and mentor employees. All of those mindsets and skills I think are crucial for leaders to practice. They want to bring more value to the organization. I think the biggest thing that leaders need to understand is that it's no longer about them, it's about other people. So leadership traditionally used to be you know, get the biggest office get the most amount of money. Get more responsibility, get more accountability. But now leadership is really about how do you help make other people more successful than you? And probably the best piece of advice I can give to any leaders is that if you show up to work each day with that mentality of how I help make other people more successful than me, then you're inherently going to add more value to everything that you do. So that's probably the simplest and easiest place to start, is just making that mental shift.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's really about inclusion. And I think including all the others in hearing their side of the story as well. And you know, you state from all the definitions of leadership from all the leaders that you've interviewed, it's been a lot, that not one of them defined leadership the same. So what you're saying is, hey, how leaders actually see themselves as leaders, is really quite different, you state that the worst thing that can happen to an organization is not having a clear definition of what leadership is and what it's not. How would you define leadership? And what is the difference between what a lot of people call managers and leaders.

Jacob Morgan
In the book, I provide a definition of leadership. But I think actually, probably what's more important is not what my definition of leadership is, but it's how people who are listening to this define leadership, because leadership is a very subjective thing. And how I might define it is different than how somebody listening to this might define it. And for example, I interviewed a lot of CEOs for my book, and I had some CEOs who defined leadership very much about business results in performance, and other leaders who defined leadership very much about helping make other people more successful and coaching and mentoring. But both of those CEOs are very, very successful running multi-billion dollar organizations, but they just have a different corporate culture that they create. And so the important thing is to have a definition of leadership. You know, they say in chess, for example, that it's better to have a bad plan than to not have a plan at all. And so I think the same thing is true for leadership. It doesn't matter if your definition is perfect, it doesn't even matter if everybody agrees with it. But you need to have something in place, that may change over time that you can manipulate over time that you can evolve over time. But if you have nothing to go off of, I think that's where a lot of people struggle. Personally, I think leadership is really about helping make other people more successful, it's creating a vision for a better world, it's helping get people move in the direction of that vision. And by doing so in a way that puts people first. So when I think of a leader, that's what comes to my mind. Yeah, but again, that it's a subjective thing. And that's okay, not everybody needs to have the same definition of leadership. But where it matters is, if you are going to work for an organization, or if you're looking to apply for a job at a company, you really want to make sure that your definition of leadership matches with how the person you're going to be working with or for defining leadership. Because you look at a company like Netflix, right? Netflix is a very competitive company. And they're very blunt, and they'll say, We'll pay you well, but you're going to work like a dog. And you know, they're very much about numbers and growth, and productivity and efficiency, and just, you know, crushing everybody, you know, that culture works. For some people, it doesn't work for everybody, right. And when you are thinking of working for that kind of a company, you might not agree with that definition of leadership or corporate culture, and so you don't work there. So again, the biggest lesson here is to define leadership, and to have some sort of a starting point for yourself, and then align that with the company that you're working with, or who you're working for.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, and I think, you know, I just did an interview with Dr. Bob Nelson, know about kind of happiness in the workplace workplaces that are fun. And you know, we look at places like Zappos and I unfortunately, Tony died this last year, but you know, how he wanted to create his fun culture, and what can actually happen when you have fun at work. You know, and I think that's important, you bring up an important point, you know, if you're going to go to work for Netflix, just realize that Netflix is maybe going to be a bit more of a grind than if you went to work for Zappos or some other company that really kind of honors that. Any comment from you regarding that from what you see out there in the marketplace?

Jacob Morgan
Yeah, so for me, I do think so fun is not the ultimate goal here, at least for me, and for a lot of the organizations I work with, right now, of course, you want people to enjoy the work that they're doing. You want them to have a good time, being a part of the organization, but it's not just about fun. You know, fun is, you know, playing games, beer pong, you know, that's fun. But because you're having fun doesn't mean You send you feel a sense of fulfillment or purpose or meaning, having fun doesn't mean that you're growing as a person. Having fun doesn't mean that you're making an impact or making a difference. So I want to caution people who are listening to this, that fun is not the ultimate goal, I think there's something much deeper on a human level that we're trying to achieve. And that goes beyond just having a good time Now again, but I wouldn't say

Greg Voisen
I would say, Jacob, that happiness is because if you're not happy at your job, right? You know, what the hell's the point of being at the job, enjoy what you're doing, if it's your purpose, right. And I'm certain there's a lot of people that are listening, that are stuck in jobs, that their particular purpose is not aligned with the purpose of the company.

Jacob Morgan
Oh, yeah, I mean, if that's the case, you shouldn't be a part of that organization, right. And you do want to enjoy the work that you're doing. So again, I want to stress the point that I'm not talking about, you shouldn't be having fun. But Fun. Fun is like one component of the things that you're looking for. Because I know lots of people who have fun working at these organizations where they have free food and free perks, and all that sort of stuff, but they're still not happy, right? They don't feel like you're going anywhere in their career. They don't feel like they're making a difference. They don't feel like they're making any sense of contribution, but they're learning anything. But you know, they're having a good time, because they're like, showing up and seeing their friends, it's, you know, it's kind of like whatever for them, right. And the other thing that you mentioned is, you know, if you don't, if you weren't enjoying yourself, what's the point of showing up. And that's also something to caution against, right? Because there are a lot of components of somebody's job that you might not enjoy doing. So having fun at work is important, but it's a part of it. So for example, there are lots of parts of my job that I enjoy doing. But there are also parts that I don't enjoy. I like speaking, I like podcasting. I like writing, I like creating content. But there's also a lot of stuff that I don't like doing. I'm not very organized. I don't like going over proposals, or contracts or dealing with logistics, or you know, the nitty gritty stuff aspects of the business. So if you show up to work every day, and you're unhappy, obviously, there's a problem. But if you show up to work, and in general, you're happy, and you're just being asked to do something here and there that you're like, not loving, it doesn't mean that you're part of a bad organization, it doesn't mean that you should quit. Right? I mean, we're not creating Pinocchio's Island here. So I just want to caution people that just because of your job, that are not as fun as other aspects of your job, it doesn't mean you're at the wrong organization. I think in general, overall, you should be happy, you should be satisfied, you should be fulfilled, you should have that sense of purpose and meaning. But you know, what, if every now and then you have to sit on a meeting that you don't want to be part of, if you have to, you know, submit an expense report that you don't want to do. It doesn't mean it's a bad company. And I think we need to move away from trying to create that kind of a corporate culture. And some companies are trying to do this, where they think every aspect needs to be fun. People need to be smiling, and literally everything should be like a game. That's not what we're trying to do. Right? What I want to caution people against,

Greg Voisen
well, I think literally look, it's nobody's in charge of you giving meaning or the definition of meaning to what it is that you do, or happiness, it's you that's responsible for that no leader, no manager, no supervisor, actually brings you meaning. You and that's why this show is called inside personal growth, because people have to take it upon themselves to do that. And I think that's what's important. Granted, you don't want to work for a bastard, you want to work for somebody who is got some compassion and understanding and sees things in a way or would help be a person to have you see something differently. But other than that, you've got to be responsible, and you cite six trends that are shaping and you started talking about it a little bit the future of leadership, what are the six trends? And how can you comment on how this is shaping the leaders of today and into the future?

Jacob Morgan
Sure, and so getting, I actually want to talk about one point that you mentioned as well. And that is around the purpose and meaning. And you said frankly, that, you know, nobody's responsible for creating purpose or meaning for you. But there is something also to be said, for the role that everybody plays in purpose and meaning. So and I don't know how much you want to spend talking about this. But there is a difference between purpose and meaning. And oftentimes, they're used interchangeably. And in the book, I have this framework that I go over which is job purpose, impact and meaning and all of those are four different things and all four of those are things that we Y'all need to have your job is basically what it is that you're doing, right? It's your job description. It's what you got hired to do, whether you're writing code, whether you're answering phones, whether you are, you know, selling stuff, whatever it is, that's your job description. So purpose goes one level deeper, and purpose is along the lines of. So for example, if you're in customer service and support, your job is to answer phones, your job is to talk to customers. Well, what's the purpose of doing that? Well, you want to solve customer problems, you want to make the lives of your customers easier and better. You want to turn customers into evangelists, you want to get customers to keep coming back. That's your purpose. That's, you know, one level deeper than just your job. The impact is ultimately, ultimately around is that what is happening? So if your job as a customer service representative, is to make the lives of your customers easier and better, is that the actual impact that you're having? Or is your impact less than that, for example, we've all been on the phone with customer service agents and representatives, where when getting off the phone, we're more agitated, we're angry, they didn't solve our problem, we're more frustrated. So is the impact that you're having greater than or equal to the purpose that you have? And then meaning is, personally subjectively, what do you get out of it. So for example, going back to the customer service representative, I might be doing that, because I personally get meaning from building relationships with people, I get meaning from learning about people from helping them from, you know, connecting with other human beings, you know, I get meaning from that. If I am in software development or engineering, I might get meaning from tackling complex problems that other people can't solve. So those are four things that everybody needs to have. And everybody does play a role in this. You know, your leaders can play a role in helping you understand your purpose in the impact by telling stories, by giving you more insight into how the work that you're doing is impacting the organization, how it's impacting customers, what you're actually doing there. And I have a story that I personal story that I can share. Many, many years ago, I used to work in a movie theater, and I was behind the concession stand. And each week, they would want to contest that this movie theater, and the person who could upsell their customers, the most would get a $50 gift card. So somebody would come to the concession stand, they would buy a medium popcorn and a medium drink. And it would be my job to upsell them to get a large for $1 more in the person who could upsell the most number of people with the gift card. And you know, I want a couple of these things. And but I had no idea why he was doing it. You know, what was this for? Where was the money going? How is it being used? You know, does this help in any way, the San Diego Zoo has a very identical program, where when customers go to the concession stand, they want to upsell their customers, get them to walk away with a large popcorn or drink a stuffed animal something. But the difference is at the San Diego Zoo, the employees there know how the extra money they are generating is going to help to conservation efforts, how it's going to fight the extinction of a particular animal. And so they have that greater sense of purpose and meaning because the organization and the leaders are telling those stories to the employees, they're giving them more insights on how the work that they're doing is making an impact and a contribution. Whereas my work, it's movie theater, they did not do that. So it's not to say that the organization is responsible for your purpose and your meaning. But they can play a role in helping you discover and find and align what those things are. So just wanted to mention that. And I honestly don't even remember what your question was clarified?

Greg Voisen
No, no, I think like it's the job of personal growth can be enhanced by obviously all the people you meet and the books, you read the seminars, you go to the podcasts you listen to, but the action itself, the habits, and the actions that have to take place are something that have to be you have to be internally inspired and motivated to do. Everybody from the outside is really kind of reflecting and looking in and yes, if you know, the San Diego Zoo, the purpose of where those funds are going, I think that's great, it's going to make it a lot easier to sell that, because that's aligned with who you are. You're working at the zoo. You know, I'm commenting on what you said, you know, what the meaning and purpose is there and what they're going to do with those funds. And it becomes obviously easier to convince somebody who comes up to your stand to actually say, hey, look, you're making this contribution to help an extinct species to keep them from going extinct. I love that for that analogy. But the other question was really around the six trends are shaping the future of leadership. I wanted to comment, and then discuss the four mindsets for the future of leadership such as you know, you call these mindsets or traits such as curiosity, openness to people, ideas, joyous exploration. So maybe you can combine those two questions together, which would be the six traits and four mindsets.

Jacob Morgan
Sure, well, so you mean to start with the six trends? Yep. Yeah. Okay, so the six trends are AI, and I'll list them and then I'll give you a sentence about each one, AI and technology pace of change, new talent, landscape, purpose, and meaning, morality, ethics and transparency in globalization. So when we look at AI and technology, I think it's very clear that it's shaping how we work, where we work, how work gets done, and we're seeing more influx of AI and technology into every aspect of our work and our lives. Second is overall pace of change. And this just refers to the speed at which things are changing COVID, the events of 2020 are a great example. We have transformed our lives and our organizations more in the last two years than we have in the last 20 years. So things are just changing quickly and rapidly all the time. new talent, landscape, new values, new expectations of employees, we have five in some cases, six generations of employees in the workforce. We're talking about hybrid work, we're talking about gig workers, it's just the talent landscape is different than it used to be. Next, we have purpose and meaning which we talked about. Number five is morality, ethics and transparency, which is really about leaders who are not scared to take a stance, to let people know what they stand for, what they care about what they value, and to not be so concerned with playing in the gray area of making everyone happy. Because the big fear that leaders should have isn't the people will disagree with them. It's that people don't know what they stand for. So that's a huge trend. And lastly, we have globalization, which is really about the world becoming like one big city, where the barriers to doing any kind of business are crumbling, you know, the culture that you subscribe to The currency that you transact, in where you're located, all these things are starting to matter less and less and less, as far as how business gets done. So those are the six trends that I talked about in the book that are shaping leadership now in the future. And I think what was the second part of your

Greg Voisen
second part really was the four mindsets for future of leadership and those mindsets within those mindsets. In the book, you list traits, such as curiosity and openness to people, ideas, joyous exploration, you gave a whole list of them, just if you would, because I think when people pick this book up, if you're want to become a future leader, and all the work that you put in to serving almost 14,000 employees, and leaders themselves, you know, this book is, is filled with great statistics. But more importantly, it's filled with great ideas for these leaders to be able to become better leaders. That's what we're doing. So discuss the four mindsets, and some of the traits of what future leaders should have.

Jacob Morgan
Sure. So as you mentioned, there are indeed four mindsets that are shaping leadership now and in the future. And these four mindsets are the mindset of the chef. They are the mindset of the Explorer, the servant and the global citizen. The Explorer mindset is all about being a perpetual learner, meaning learning how to learn, apply the things that you learn to use scenarios. It's about being curious. It's about being able to focus on agility, and adaptability. So that's kind of the Explore mindset there. The shift mindset is about learning how to balance humanity, and technology. We're very obsessed with technology inside of our organizations and in our lives. But the chef mindset is really about not forgetting the human aspect of business. that business is still fundamentally about relationships about people working together. And that's something that we shouldn't forget. The servant mindset is pretty much what it sounds like. But it's understanding that you have to serve your leaders, your team, your customers, and you also have to serve yourself by practicing self-care. And I don't think that's something we talked about enough. And lastly, we have the mindset of the global citizen, which is really around, surround yourself by people who are not like you and being able to think big picture, not just focusing on what's right in front of you, your team or your geography, but looking at things as a whole. So those are the four mindsets that over 140 CEOs identified as being most crucial for current and future leaders.

Greg Voisen
Well, those are really good and I think what's important Jacob is that you know, any leader listening to this, understand those and the other thing you talk about in the book is a futurist is framework to help them think about and visualize the possibilities known is what you call the cone of possibilities. Could you speak to the audience and explain the thinking and discuss the five skills that you mentioned in the book for that future leader, and that cone of possibilities area?

Jacob Morgan
Yeah, there are five skills. I mean, the cone of possibilities falls under one of the skills, which is the skill of the futurist. And the skill of the future is about thinking through different scenarios and possibilities and trying to come up with different ideas, as opposed to just having a linear path and going down that one path. So that's what the skill of the future says about the skill of Yoda is about emotional intelligence, specifically empathy and self-awareness. The skill of the translator is listening, and communication, which, you know, to things that have been around for a while, but also to things that are changing now more than ever, just because of the tools and platforms we have at our disposal. We're so distracted all the time that, you know, it's never been harder to listen and communicate with each other. The next skill is the skill of the coach, which is helping make other people more successful than you. And lastly, we have the technology teenager, which is pretty much what it sounds like. It's kind of approaching technology from childlike curiosity. Kids are very open to playing with technology, experimenting with it, seeing what works, see what doesn't. So technology teenager is really just about, you know, being tech savvy, and digitally fluent, and not being scared of technology and assuming it's an ID thing.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's certainly a factor in leaders today, I just had on the gentleman that the gentleman that from Deloitte, that wrote the book called provoke. And we had that discussion about leaders, very wise leaders in companies and usually older and maybe not being as tech savvy. And I think it's important that we, we have that element in there, doesn't mean we're going to remove those wise, more mature leaders, but that they really use that tool that you said at the end there. Now, you tell us a story about Cheryl Palmer and I happen to have met Cheryl at a very intimate close meeting and got to know her better. And she's the CEO of Taylor Morrison, which is the largest home builders. And she told her story at that event as well. And she had read her letters that she had to write to the Taylor Morrison team. And I like I said, I happen to have heard this story. But I would like for you to tell the story. And why in your estimation, she would be what I personally would consider as a very wonderful leader, compassionate person. Would you be willing to tell that story?

Jacob Morgan
Yeah, sure. So the story is useful to me was that she was always a leader who was occupied by the hustle and bustle, putting my kind of running around doing things that you know, leaders usually do. And one day she was diagnosed with a brain tumor. And she had to go get surgery to get the movement. And she didn't know if she would come out of this or not. And what she did is she had to write two letters to her team and to her family. One of the letters basically said, Keep up the great work that we're doing, you know, carry on with, with our mission, you know, keep fighting the good fight, so to speak. And that was the letter that she wanted everybody to receive, if she didn't make it out of surgery successfully. And then she had a second letter to her team, to basically said, I'll see you in a few weeks. And that was the letter she wanted everybody to receive. had the surgery gone well, and she just wanted to let people know she was recovering, and she would be back at the office. And she told me that writing these letters really made her realize the importance of leadership and to be intentional with everything that she does, and to not fight fires, but to really be purposeful. And to make sure that everything that she does, she thinks through and puts thought behind it and does so with, with a reason for doing it. And she said that that was the most profound moment that shaped who she knew as a leader, and as a person, and it's one of my favorite stories.

Greg Voisen
Yeah, it's a wonderful story. And the way she told it at the event we were at as well. Got the whole room pretty teary eyed, to be honest with you. And, and I think if most leaders knew that their life depended on it, that their actions and the way in which they handle themselves would change. And what most of them seem to forget is that their life does depend on it. In other words, we don't know our finitude we don't know when our mortality will be and in this case, she faced it and she did it very gracefully. And she did a wonderful job of conveying that because she actually read the letters at the program that I was at. Now, you talk about beliefs, we all know we have them. They get ingrained. We even have biases. And you ask the reader to better understand their beliefs that are defining them. Can you explain the golden triangle of leadership and why our beliefs plays such an important role in US becoming great leaders?

Jacob Morgan
Sure, so the Golden Triangle image that I have in the book, and for people who are trying to visualize it, exactly what it sounds like, it's a it's a, it's a triangle. And it's broken up into a couple different areas, which are beliefs, thoughts, and actions. And of course, some people say, you know, what about emotions, emotions, you know, are inherent in, in the actions and the beliefs and the thoughts. But I really just wanted to focus on these things. So beliefs, thoughts and actions, beliefs are basically exactly what you think up. It's what you believe. So for example, do you believe that as a leader, people shouldn't serve you? Or do you believe that as a leader, you should serve others? That's a belief. So if you believe that, as a leader, people should serve you, then all the thoughts that pop into your head, are going to be around? How do you make that happen? So you're going to show up to work each day thinking, Well, how do I get people to serve me? How do I get more people to do whatever I tell them to do? And all the thoughts around the things that get done at work are going to revolve around that. And that's going to then translate into your actions. And then soon, what's going to happen is, as a leader, you're going to say, Well, how do I make everybody do what I tell them to do? I'm going to make it a part of their reward structure, I'm going to create a culture where nobody is allowed to ask me questions or challenge me in any way, I'm going to create a corporate culture where, you know, it's going to be very much based on hierarchy. And those three things that are going to shape who you are as a leader. Conversely, if you believe that as a leader, you serve others, then your thoughts are always going to be around Well, how do I how do I help other people? How do I help my team? How do I help my employees remove obstacles from their path, and then the actions that you take will mimic that, right? So some of your actions might be, hey, let me take on that project for you. Because I know you are swamped, or let me sit in on that meeting for you. Because I know, you know the other person on the other line, and maybe I can make things easier for you. And that's going to shake who you are as a leader. So people need to, especially those leadership roles kind of walk through their belief, their thoughts and our actions to help define who they are as a leader.

Greg Voisen
Well, you know, it's an important point you bring up and I know for a fact for I've been at this a long-time doing workshops and seminars myself and working inside organizations with cultural transformation work, and so on. And the Greenleaf School of leadership is really a great model, you know, it's you're coming to work. And as a leader, and you are serving the people that work for you. on basic, in essence, that's what you're saying. And if that is the belief that you're walking around with, you're going to get a lot more accomplished, than if you come to work as a leader, thinking that you've got to try and manipulate people to do things the way that you want them to do it. So totally concur with you on that philosophical viewpoint. And that, that viewpoint that that's what makes a good leader. So Jacob, if you were to leave our listeners today with three takeaways from the book, that they could apply to their roles as leaders, because we have lots of leaders listening to this podcast, what would be the takeaways that you'd want to leave them with?

Jacob Morgan
First one is to view yourself as a lighthouse. And I talk a lot, talk about this a lot in the book, and that is to view yourself as somebody who's not just responsible for the success of the organization, but somebody who's responsible for helping guide your employees to success and safety. So I very much view leaders as this kind of this this a lighthouse. The second is to try to improve by 1% a day. And when I say 1% a day, I mean small things that you can do every single day that will help make you a better leader. So small things might be listening to your podcast about something new for five to 10 minutes a day. It might be practicing empathy by trying to put yourself in somebody else's shoes when they come to you with a problem or situation. Maybe it's even taking walking meetings to be a little bit healthier so that you can be you know more in shape to serve those around. You see what you can do to improve by 1% a day as a leader. And the third thing that I think is crucial is to go over the mindsets and skills that we talked about. And try to put them into practice and talk to your employees about them. And ask your employees how well they think you're practicing those mindsets and skills and to improve in the areas where you're struggling. So there's a couple of up to three places that I would start if I wanted to improve as a leader.

Greg Voisen
Well, and the other thing that I'll tell my listeners is if you go to future of working University comm, there's an online professional development for the modern world or the invest in your future, as you say here. It covers everything from customer of the future courses to employee experience crash courses to the Morgans for him of entrepreneurship. And these are lessons that you can sign up for. And it's Jacob and his wife, Blake. And I'm assuming she's your wife? I would think so. Yep, yep. And so just go to future of work university.com. And there you can see some of the companies that have actually already taken some of these courses, and you just see the length of the course, three hours, four and a half hours, 90 minutes long, whatever course you want to take. Jacob has been a pleasure having you on speaking about The Future Leader and this Wally book. We appreciate having you as a guest on inside personal growth. We will definitely put-up links to your personal website or to your website along with the future of work University website. Thanks for your time today.

Jacob Morgan
Thank you so much for having me.